speaker-0: Andy, hi. Thank you very much for going to give me bit of your time to talk about falconry, dogs and ⁓ anything else we want to talk.

speaker-1: Right, well so you want to know where it all started? suppose. of background. Bit of background. where did my interest start in birds? So can trace that back to my grandfathers, both of them. So one grandfather, my paternal grandfather. ⁓ I attend the ⁓ bird with him because he bred canaries and budgies. ⁓ okay. That side of things. Okay, not falconry but ⁓ birds way and he would explain why.

speaker-0: Crown repeat.

speaker-1: spread different lines with different lines. I do the same now when breeding my falcons. ⁓ I attended the shows with my maternal in the village. everybody used to bring any injured animals to him and my grandmother. my first bird of prey was a tawny owl.

speaker-0: expecting that.

speaker-1: No. And that was one that was brought into granddad. Right. And it was just a tony owl that some lads had picked up I ended up taking that home and it lived in my bedroom and my mother and father were very understanding. ⁓ It used to live on the of the ⁓ bed on the head, you know, I had a box in the room as well. And my brother actually shared the bedroom so the owl didn't mind the smell. They've got no sense of smell, luckily. that started. And then an kestrel was brought in to me, know, because they said, Andy's got a bird of prey, take it to him. And I started with the kestrel and that, had come from ⁓ actually a chimney, come ⁓ it had been stuck somebody's chimney.

speaker-0: You

speaker-1: And when it came to me, all the talons were worn down because it was trying to scratch its way out. It was in a right mess And I cleaned it up and I realized at the time it would have taken, you know, it's going to take a long time for the waterproof to come back on the feathers for release. And because when you wash them, you take all that off. But first of all, it needed the talons back to catch its dinner. So I thought, I'm going to have to keep this even though it can fly. And then I just... decided to make some jessies and and gather as much as I could from the books. And of course then I got all the furniture, made the furniture out of really crude stuff. In the end, ⁓ I managed to that flying and it kind of ⁓ flew back to me it wanted to and didn't sometimes. And I realized as you get older, I give it too much food. Didn't want to fly like anything else. I progressed from there to sparrowhawks because I them to go and catch something. Yeah. ⁓ I had the hunting gene. ⁓ I spent many years flying sparrowhawks. didn't realize how well I was doing that actually because I made hoods for the Sparrowhawks. Not many people hood them. They say they can't be hooded and you shouldn't hood them and it's cost a difficult to hood but I two I didn't know it was supposed to be difficult and I didn't know It was crazy to fly two together because it doesn't work because they'll crab and fight each other. Well in our case I just put them up in the tree and they'd follow along as I beat the hedge for whatever would come out with a dog in and out. And we had a lot of sport and if of the sparrowhawks was successful, the other one would start calling for it. It was great to watch. I mean if you read every falconry book you get notes. You certainly can't fly two spars together because one will kill the

speaker-0: What were they hunting? What sort of things?

speaker-1: pheasant poults, and partridges, if we could, and seen many wild sparrowhawks now in village when they've caught jackdaws things. And I know instantly when I hear it, when I can hear all the cacophony of the, like all the jackdaws coming in the tree and everything screaming, you know that there's a sparrowhawk on something there. ⁓ So, and sparrowhawk is reputed to be ⁓ one of the most difficult forms of falconry.

speaker-0: So you went from tawny owl to your Kestrel sparrowhawk ⁓

speaker-1: That was the progression.

speaker-0: stuff you weren't meant to be able to do because he hadn't read all the books. He was just doing it and it worked.

speaker-1: That's, it worked, it worked. I mean, I had to quickly learn how to imp feathers because sparrowhawks are notorious for breaking the tail feathers. So imping means sticking, fixing broken feathers. And on a sparrowhawk, they've got a long train, we call it a train, a tail. And it's usually the central deck feathers that go first. And it's usually down to management. But when they're a kill and the mantling, can break feathers and even in transport if you're not too careful you can break feathers ⁓ if you break Say you break one or two feathers to central deck feathers on a sparrowhawk It's not long before the next ones go because they all rely on each other for support. It's like a fan ⁓ know and Luckily feather shafts are hollow so you can peg them Yeah, and then slip the broken pieces back on ⁓ encased inside the feather shaft is is a cocktail stick, which you've got, you know, so you insert an inch in that way and you leave an inch sticking out and then you slip the feather back over the top and encase inside the feather, which is now holding the two broken pieces together. But I also learned, because we're catching a few jackdaws, that can use different tail feathers from different birds to fit too. ⁓

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: One a particular sparrow, the tail became so badly damaged that I had to put a complete tail on it. At the time I hadn't got any tail feathers from a sparrowhawk. Each year they moult the feathers and you can collect the feathers and reuse them. As long as they're in good condition you can reuse them as they moult them through the summer. And they can have their own feathers back from a year before. So I put a jackdaw tail on a sparrowhawk, a complete jackdaw tail because it was so badly damaged. And it never broke them tail feathers. They're just a bit shorter than the original ones and but they're broader. It worked perfect. Blacktail sparrowhawk. And I thought maybe I should just, sparrowhawk I have initially, just cut the tail off and put a jackdaws tail on because I could get loads of jackdaws tails because were, ⁓ would give you as many jackdaws as you want. And managed to do all this without any help. Now normally you need somebody to hold the hawk while you do this or cast it, that's what we call it. But then you can now get a jacket called a casting jacket. So it's just like a Velcro wrap that you put around the hawk and it just keeps it still. So it can be here in front of me facing you and I can have all my equipment here and the tails and prepare all the tail feathers with the needles or cocktail sticks ready, everything in.

speaker-0: suites. By doing it the hard way you learn a lot.

speaker-1: Yeah, but with that initial grounding with sparrowhawks the rest are not a challenge it's like starting with an english pointer and then training a Labrador. At the time when I was bringing up my family I still managed have the hawks with me even when I was doing the work, they were at work with me and I'd find time to fly them in, but you know, so it's always like even bringing the children up, did get the children involved. I mean, I've got ⁓ photographs of my children in hawking bags. ⁓ I used to take a big ⁓ hawking bag stand them in the hawking bag when was my turn then I got to make loads of people ⁓ and ⁓ ultimately I living up here. I moved up here, but before I did move up here, my relatives who live over the hill here.

speaker-0: We should probably say where here is.

speaker-1: Here is Dornoch which is up in Sutherland in the Highlands. It's an hour north of Inverness and an hour south of Wick. There was no bridge across the Firth until 1990. So ⁓ had to take a long way around to get here. it was really, I think Sutherland, this county is the least populated ⁓ in Western Europe. Wow. 13,000 people in the county, million and a half square miles my relatives were on the other side of hill, so we'd come up there and stay In fact, friend Stephen who used live here, probably most famous falconer as far as Grouse hawking is concerned, and Pointers as well. Stephen Frank. Yeah, Stephen Frank. My uncle to say, there's a ⁓ man on ⁓ crazy man the other side of the hill there, he's always running up and the hill with his dog shouting and screaming. ⁓

speaker-0: Steve.

speaker-1: But he seems to have a lot of fun than really just flying these hawks. He's like you, he's got these hawks. didn't know that was such an important person in the falconry world. And anyway, but I was chopping logs at my uncle's day and Stephen and a group of his friends to be coming through with his dogs. I was chopping logs and my dog was there and he come over to me and he said, he was looking for dog and I said, it's here, your other here. It's my dog sort of thing. He said, there you are, you know. ⁓ And he saw dog and he said, what is that? And I explained, it's a pointer and he said. ⁓ does it point woodcock And I said, it does actually. Do you want to bring it out? And he said, what's, and he noticed that I had a falcon with a glove. And I said, yeah, I've got hawks. And so we got to talk and his friends were still, and he said, you must come round and catch up later. So I said, okay. And so at the time I had the sparrow hawks. So he used to have sparrow hawks. He absolutely loved them. So of course we were talking all about Sparrow Hawks and then he invited me on the hill with a dog. Does the dog point grouse? said, I think it does. I said, we've done it a few times on the back. But I said, but I haven't done it. So we went on the hill. And of course my dog was no match for the pointers on the hill. couldn't even keep up with them. But she backed and she didn't disgrace herself. But then he invited me out days later, I think it was, because had friends up for the woodcock. And day I went out with the dog and he shot, I think it two woodcock over her ⁓ she retrieved them straight to him beautifully. He loved that. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. And they shot a few, I think he shot a couple of rabbits too. But anyway, so we had a good time there and then I ended up going back on the hill with him. And then he invited me again and again. because we both played chess all the time, I was a chess player, he was a chess player. So it was a Hawking, then it was back for the Stockpot, Stephen's famous Stockpot. And then he'd try and play me with whiskey. I realized after a while, he didn't take the drams he'd have one dram and then I'd have a few drams and then he won a game of chess.

speaker-0: Hahaha.

speaker-1: quite well to his advantage actually and then he realized that the music I like listening to so he'd put the music on in the background you know and I'd on or something and that would be distracting me again or then he puts it and I realized his plot but we got on famously and then that was it from from from kind of the mid 80s As soon as I'd finished work or I'd finished the castle or whatever, we were out hawking.

speaker-0: So how did you get some of the...

speaker-1: I was some work on Skibo Castle. Yeah. And at the time a guy called Peter de Savary on Skibo Castle, And he had his own hawks that he'd got from, I think from Martin, I'm not sure. he asked me if I would. train his hawks and fly his hawks for him guests at the castle. At Skibo this is Yeah. Right. And at the time I was working on his roof, the laundry cottage at the castle, it's quite a high building. ⁓ I said, no, no, I don't want to do it for a living. It'll, you know, when you, once you have a hobby, it's going to ruin it I mean it's all fate because you know when you're doing roofing you tend to have accidents. and I had a bad accident on that roof And I knew it was bad. I don't know, I got to hospital, obviously got it pinned and sorted. And I thought, you know what, I think I better get out of this trade. I took Peter up on his offer at Skibo to look after the Hawks. And I enjoyed it actually. it was nice to meet everybody.

speaker-0: What sort of size, how many hawks were there?

speaker-1: at the time, he a red tail, eagle and a Lanner falcon. So I would just exercise them and let them fly to the guests and ⁓ stoop the falcons to lure and exercise them each morning. And this led to on to starting that this doing educational displays at Dunrobin. Yeah Which then meant I ended up with 35 Hawks

speaker-0: There were 35 hawks.

speaker-1: I had 35 that I looked after at Dunrobin And I'd train another six each season because I would bread them as well so I'd get them out and train them. But it was seven days a week every day. we'd finish the season the end of October at the castle and then it would be hunting every day through the hunting season and start again Easter, April. So I'd have to start getting the hawks ready a couple of weeks before. And how long did you do that for?

speaker-0: people have trained that many. who does.

speaker-1: So we including Skibo we're probably 30 years.

speaker-0: So you learnt a thing or two, one imagine...

speaker-1: Well, you know, trained every species, ⁓ species, people breeding hybrids and so quite a eagle species and hawks. I think trained every species that we have for both display of course I used to a lot in display and hunt with them people would say you can't hunt with the display birds. You can't go hunting and of course you can I did.

speaker-0: you take some pretty weird and wacky things and go hunting with them?

speaker-1: hawks and I mean they all hunt. ⁓ All of prey species hunt. ⁓ They're all different, I all of them, they're all different. mean a lot of people, pure falconers, will talk derogatory about Harris hawks.

speaker-0: Of course, I guess. more suitable than others.

speaker-1: and they're all amazed that I think they're wonderful. They're so intelligent, so clever, a very fit, intelligent, intermewed Harris is a very efficient, means it's shed, you've had it for a season or two. intermewed Yeah, that means had them in the Mews for a season. very fit Harris Hawk is a different hawk than from an unfit kind of pet Harris Hawk. So they're very intelligent, good fun, I had a lot of fun with them. I used to fly them with my goshawks together. Some people are purists and just want to fly goshawks goshawks are fantastic, bit of pretty things anyway to look at. many of the time I'd have two or three or four Harris hawks following me on with the dogs and a goshawk The goshawk was always two or three trees back.

speaker-0: I thought the gossel was flown exclusively from the fist

speaker-1: Yeah, that's what everybody says. It's true. this is another one of these things. But I think how do they get fit on the fist? But to me, it's more exciting to see them flying through the trees and following on. a lot of tradition, tradition is you always fly on the fist and they get too independent if you if they just let them follow on. Harris does it naturally. Well, the Harris's were always

speaker-0: Harris does that naturally? Would that be a good first?

speaker-1: The goshawk is much faster, especially when you're through to, why is it you're flying around the castle? We had a lot of birch and there's a cock pheasant just watching you. The hawks will be watching that cock pheasant go past the pens. Oh wow, yeah. He might come back. Anyway, but down there there was kind of broken open forestry, what we'd start through, which were, you know, like Caledonian pine, quite open, and the Harris hawks were very good at that. And the Harris hawks would always watch the dog. once they knew what the dog was going to produce quarry, they'd be in the tree above it all the way. The goss was always like two, three trees back, a bit higher very often. And so the harrisers were off, they beat the goshawk by that. Not that the goshawk, not to do goshawk, very intelligent, but the harris hawks very And the goshawk never came in when the harriser was on a rabbit, it never came in crab with them, know. ⁓

speaker-0: mainly rabbits. What you hunt with a harris.

speaker-1: rabbits that's what i was mainly hunting with i mean you can i've caught duck with the one thing but uh crows and things but but it was 99 % rabbits right for me um you know i didn't deliberately go out for ducks sometimes in the forestry i was hunting and when there were there were burns going through and there'd be a duck getting up off it And pheasants, because I was on Skibo mainly pheasants. When we took clients ⁓ they'd have their own Harris hawks, which I trained. So I'd take Harris hawks at Skibo, ⁓ and we'd fly them in a pair, cast. So two would fly, ⁓ the two would be carried by the guests on that thing, and they would take, and they'd all be, they'd be hooded when they weren't flying. And so we got that, but we had a lot of pheasants put down.

speaker-0: ⁓ hunt as a pack in the world don't they?

speaker-1: you know, lot of peregrines are flying casts, ⁓ of birds, I mean, you ⁓ so lot of birds do hunt in pairs and cast naturally, Harris hawks do it in groups, is... Unusual. Very unusual. And I just you can see the intelligence from that. ⁓ And they're very clever. I mean, had the Harris hawks on the ground flushing rabbits for the other Harris hawks to catch. Oh really? know, as they're doing that show and actually calling, calling, trying to scare the rabbit out on foot and the others are watching. So I've actually done that because, you know, it was almost day after day through the season and all through the summer with the Harris hawks too, not just a traditional winter. And so you've got a lot of baby rabbits. So you've got to be very careful because they could carry them. But you have to make him very careful so they don't learn to carry these things. So they'd end up flying up a tree and eating it So you've got to manage them quite well.

speaker-0: But the harris sound, is that as traditionally the sort of first bird a falconer would have? ⁓

speaker-1: Well, it's funny, the funny thing is the Harris hawks didn't come on the scene till guessing the really. And I don't know if it was Philip Glasier who got one first of some of the famous, I can't remember. just know they were bloody expensive ⁓ to buy one them days because it was a new species, everybody wanted one because were just amazing. But one thing I think about ⁓ Harris hawks, any falconers, if you mention Harris they probably train one but tell you that they're rubbish. ⁓ You know, you get a lot of that don't you in hunting world, ⁓ they're rubbish but they've never worked and never trained one so how can they have an opinion? ⁓ but I've seen them. ⁓ It's not just watching them, it's spending time with them and from them. when you learn, but they've saved a lot of sparrowhawks lives as far as I'm concerned because the sparrowhawks it takes very management and ⁓ you know if mismanaged you've got a dead sparrowhawk. Whereas, harris hawks are much to manage, more robust, much bigger, you've got a bigger margin of error with them. They saved a lot of sparrowhawks. ⁓ When comes to, yeah, yeah, management, just management, general management.

speaker-0: about weight.

speaker-1: You know, they tend not to break feathers, you know, so a lot of people can go through the career and the falconry and enjoy the falconry and all that, but they never learn to make a hood, make furniture, imp a feather. You can get away with all these things with Harris hawks. You don't have to hold them. I mean, it was just easier for me because they readily jump into the hawk boxes. I mean, if I wasn't hunting with the Harris hawks, I'd take them out on my own. because I'had Discovery quite a big vehicle, big back on them. You remember the old discoveries and you could fit four hot boxes in there and with the door and they would all go in. I'd them all out without jesses. They had different bells on. So that's how I could tell them apart. ⁓ And would always clip transmitters on them. don't people say you don't need transmitters for Harris Hawks. I've had that many Harris Hawks go down rabbit warrens. You want to you know, it's not because you're not going to lose them you want to save their life if they get in trouble yeah and they you know if you're going on you can't watch four and one could have gone back and got into trouble i just let them out open doors i put the transmitter on wait them before we go out put them in and i got to what first i was going to fly them in open the doors ⁓ they just jump out jump on back door the of the discovery and then they jump into tree and then the next one and then they do wag the tails and then the dogs have come out and then away we'd go and they'd all follow on. I'd love to see that. And I could call them down to the glove. I did it with my friends. said that because I said they all know the name and they said, no, this is Falconers. No, they don't know the name. So so they said, well, call that one. So give me a name. I've got four. Which one do you want? Ash, you want lime? Which one? So I called. So I'd call the name. and that one would come down. I wouldn't have any food on the glove but they knew when they got there I would get a chick leg or I used to use a lot of mince meat so I could just wipe a bit on So that surprised lot of ⁓ People have been flying Harris Fawkes. Really? I'd to watch that later.

speaker-0: Ha! through the woods with the pointing dog with four harris hawks following up

speaker-1: Yeah well to be honest when I exercised them I took them through ground where there was very little quarry because it was just exercise because we were catching enough rabbits when we got to you know and that way they just follow on and follow the dog and and and then when I decided we've been out long enough I just turned around and I'd head back and they wouldn't then wait they head all the way back to the car And I'd get there and there'd be in the tree above the car or on the roof rails of the Discovery, they'd be sat there waiting and there'd be people walking past and you had to make sure that your hawks were dog friendly because Harris hawks are notoriously difficult to train to dogs. it takes a little bit of careful management to get them used to dogs and some never get used to strange dogs, they might get used to your dogs. And so they'd be waiting for me and I'd just get back and call them down to the glove, put them in the box, give them food, usually a chick and I'd shut the door and leave the little window open so they can eat the chick. And I'd do that with each one. Then when I got back, I'd get them back out and put them back in the flight pen. I always kept some, I didn't use blocks and purchase so much. Like I've got my two peregrines in the flight pens there, which I fly. They're in flight pens loose and I just go in. and pick them up, weigh them, they come straight to the fist when I go in. I'll have a chick leg. I always pick them up with a reward, always. And it doesn't have to be big, you know, so then I'll put the furniture on. I use bullet jessies, so I'll just clip them in and then hold them and them. So then I just get the Harris Hawks back and I just put them in the flight pen, always small flight pens, so they can't build up any speed and do any damage, but they can move around and have a bath and stuff. So quite easy to manage four of them. Telemetry has been, you know, the tracking system. That's my number one.

speaker-0: Don't change it.

speaker-1: and staff member. That's the best staff member ever because the only way that's going to go wrong is if you don't bloody check the batteries and you don't check the aerials around, if you don't check the equipment every time you go out and make sure, sods law is waiting for you all the time. So you just make sure all these things are done. And then if you do have a problem, something, because something will go wrong that you've not foreseen, you can't kick yourself and say, why didn't I do this? Why not? Then you can deal with the problem.

speaker-0: Right.

speaker-1: And so that's how I managed to a professional falconer

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: And then I ended up spending more time looking after Stephen as he got a bit older and I ended up being his professional Falconer. I was the most professional Falconer's professional Falconer. Because ⁓ know Stephen ⁓ a bit of a world leader everybody quotes him, ⁓ him, learns from him.

speaker-0: Bye. So there's a lot of expertise between the two of you at that point.

speaker-1: Well, know, so Stephen, because he couldn't get out, had the second hip operation that was after his first hip operation when he was 70, he got back out pretty quick. He did well there. But when he had the second one on the other hip, never kind of recovered from that. So then, of course, I had to then take over. via walkie talkies and mobile phones. He was still trying to run the show from the car and things. But he entrusted me and I ended up taking his hawks and flying them and his dog.

speaker-0: This was Peregrines for Grouse.

speaker-1: This is peregrine falcons grouse hawking Well, I mean, it's classed the pinnacle of falconry. It's my favorite because you're on the hill. Who doesn't want to be on the hill? flying Peregrines. You're working with pointers. ⁓ day is a ⁓ day. You might be on the same ground even, but every day is a different day. There's wildlife all around you as you're out. ⁓

speaker-0: is the pinnacle.

speaker-1: It's just good to be up there and you're away from people and you're away from... I don't know, enclosed environments where your hawks might see a chicken or something that killing. So you're not going to, you're just aware, you're just aware. ⁓ it seems a safe environment to enjoy falconry. Nobody will give you grief either. And the of a peregrine is something ⁓ very, special.

speaker-0: been lucky enough to see that with John a few times when it all comes together it is

speaker-1: I mean and grouse grouse of the trickiest but I mean your becomes better each season the grouse have got tricks all the time that you've never seen before and and we know I when I watch back through some of the footage because now we've forms we can record a lot of flights and we can and we still learn things and see things on film that we never knew that the grouse such high speed You can slow it down because I did a lot of geese hawking as well. And geese. Well, we used to have a lot of geese. So I just it's just a big hybrid. Gyr Saker, it was like they call three quarter Gyr quarter Saker. I Saker falcons. They're one of my favorite Steve got very good at cooking them. Steve could come and join me with the goose hawking because it because it would fly.

speaker-0: I didn't know that.

speaker-1: He'd be in the car with me, we'd spot them with binoculars and then we'd get out the car and the hawk would be off after the geese. After a while it would pick... And we learned lot from goose hawking that the further away they slip, the more chance you've got of success because you've got 400 geese in some fields, 200 of sentinels looking up while the others are feeding. But of course all the farmers don't want them on the... spring barley and stuff and they don't so they're glad to see the back of them so we'd chase them off to somebody else another farmers field but the the falcons got cleverer and cleverer and she she she learned in the first season that she caught 30 out of 30 hat 34.

speaker-0: geese

speaker-1: And they range from about seven pounds to about 11 pounds. She was two pound fifteen or two pound fifteen and a half. Flying weight that is. But when you took the hood off, she never just left the fist She'd always spend a little time observing them. And I used think she's really at this distance picking the one she's looking for a weakness. And then eventually, I mean, initially when I first started flying, she'd fly direct at them. And then as the season progressed she flew away from them. Mounted. So the heads would be up when they see her. She flew very clever and then she'd come over them and then she'd be above them and then she'd come down. from three or four hundred foot, try and get them before they lifted and she'd come down on the ground and she'd kind of cut one over so she'd her head, you'd see her and then throw up and then you'd see her pile in and then the geese had all piled into her because they've all got sharp bills, know, serrated bills and serrated tongs and they've got spurs on the wings and tough things geese. You think I've got to get, I've got to now run across all them fields. cross them fences, cross them ditches and I better get in there quick because she's getting hell of bit out her. And when you get there, the geese were very late to get up as you were running in ⁓ So you'd get in as quick as you can ⁓ and you get there and have it by the head and she's not getting any damage. She's getting damage off the other ones attacking her. Very if she could hold the head away from the wings. ⁓ So you get in as quick as you can and dispatch the goose and then she'd be exhausted. Sometimes she was cross-eyed because she'd been hit with the wings and but she was successful. we ended filming quite a lot of this. Because sometimes she'd fly over and she'd hit the, and then she'd fly off a goose. So she'd hit the one and the one she'd hit, she'd fly off. It regained itself and off it would go and she'd go after it. She'd regained herself on the floor because it had a tussle so she was a bit out of She'd go, she could have just grabbed the one next to her. And I couldn't work this out and I think why don't you just grab another one? Off she went. and then we'd find her in another field on the goose or I'd find her sat somewhere on a telegraph pole. She'd had enough. you know, she'd lost that goose ⁓ And then we got a more powerful camera and got the ability to magnify a bit more. And we'd see her sometimes hovering above them. She'd come in, cut one, and then she'd start hovering above them. And kept staying there. And I wonder what she was doing. And then she'd hover along all the way along. And when we look back on the footage, all the way, said 100 geese and they're all going crackers and she's hovering above them and she's cut one over and then all the way and you'd see this goose she'd hit and you see it working its way through all the geese doing all and she'd hovering above the one she'd hit ⁓ as it got to the end of the ⁓ she was on it again. ⁓ things you'd never see ⁓ you weren't for ⁓ know before we had phones, phones which would zoom in quite well we would just wonder what the hell was going on.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: I'm digressing a little bit, but what I'm explaining is you learn a lot from ⁓ you don't learn about your quarry, you're not going to catch them. ⁓ of all I learned the ⁓ away you slip the more chance you've got of catching them because if you short slips they get up before your hawk will get on top of them all these things ⁓

speaker-0: wanted to a bit about that fieldcraft because when we were out yesterday you were explaining and it made sense that really when you're shooting grouse you're not learning nearly as much about the quarry as you are when you're hawking grouse You've got to understand it and know what's going on.

speaker-1: That's right, if you want to grouse you've got to understand the grouse more than the falcon. You've got to understand which way they're going to go. They always want to flush that way. You know which way they're going to flush You try and head the point. So you try and get round the grouse and put the dogs, the grouse between you and the dogs. The dogs point, you've got to walk round because you need to flush in that way. because grouse will always want to flush into the wind to slow the falcon down. As the Falcon comes behind it, it slows it down and they always want to keep as close to the ground as possible and just when they're going to get...

speaker-0: Is that specific to... Grouse always wants to flush into wind regardless of...

speaker-1: The packages do it the same.

speaker-0: No, but when I'm shooting and there's no falcon about, will the grouse still want to flush into wind?

speaker-1: can't say on that. They generally do when I've done dog work, when people have shot over my dogs. They generally do. ⁓ But that's because the dogs point and we're coming in behind the dog and the grouse get up and fly away from the gun, away from the So they generally do.

speaker-0: away from the dog.

speaker-1: So in general terms, you'd have to say yes, but should never say always and you should never say that's what will happen. And you should never say you can't do this and that won't happen because you'll be proved wrong time and time again. But generally do. ⁓ But when you're shooting overgrowth, it's usually in August and you're shooting young birds and they haven't learned a lot of field craft themselves ⁓ and do the stupidest things, young ones. I try not in August anymore because ⁓ we haven't got enough growth. we've tried to make it harder and harder, the because if you're flying big falcons, which is what everybody did in the old days, you had plenty of and it was a game. If you want to put grouse in the bag all the time you'd be flying a Falcon which is harder, it hits with 90 % of impact whereas a male at least I think something like 50 % of impact.

speaker-0: Did you use the one that you were hunting the geese with on grouse as well or not?

speaker-1: So. Well, I did. is all the same. We're all the same. I had to try her. And Steve said, let's try her. See if she'll on. I mean, because you don't have waiting on for geese. She just went in and mount She learned that herself. That particular hill behind you there, she was flying over a point. and thought well she's learning quick this girl, she's doing well, she's waiting on not the same height as my peregrines were a good pitch and ⁓ The grouse wouldn't flush, she was too big, she'd intimidated them. really? Well they flush differently under a falcon than they do under a tiercel They don't feel as intimidated by tiercels as do by falcon. They're more frightened of a big falcon than they are of a small tiercel. They fly different, ⁓ they behave under a tiercel. ⁓ Sometimes I like they're doing that. ⁓ Because I the smallest smallest tiercels I can. I'm digressing a little bit. So she was waiting on above the hill, we had the dogs on point, the wouldn't flush. They were around our legs in circles. ⁓ our neighbours here. Let the chickens out.

speaker-0: ⁓ no.

speaker-1: and the geese because they had some geese here just at the same time she went out to feed them and then she shot off and I thought ⁓ she's seeing a crow damn bloody hell of course she shot off that way a nice covey of grouse got up I don't know six or eight covey got up and thought now's the time guys and and I was just trying to watch anyway they ended up picking her picking her up on one of the neighbors chickens

speaker-0: Bye.

speaker-1: That was the first and last time I took her on a grouse moor

speaker-0: So I wanted to bring you back to dogs now. GUNDOGS and beyond is the podcast. And Stephen was actually, obviously very famous for his Embercombe pointers.

speaker-1: all this ⁓ and It was my real introduction to pointers through Steve and of course

speaker-0: So when you met him you had dog that pointed woodcock

speaker-1: I'd never had an English pointer.

speaker-0: What did you, it was a cross I think you said. Yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah, I've never had the ⁓ need for I wanted something that would flush rabbits and pheasants in hedges. ⁓ English Pointers that very well, actually. But at the time, you always wanted something kind of an HPR like your dog's, you know, ⁓ a ⁓ cover. amazing what cover that some of the English Pointers I've had will face Some brambles, they'll go on the belly and get right in there. It's just, and they come you know, with tail bleeding after a bit of work and you have to pick all the needles out of them and everything and some of them won't face it but anyway, there you go so Steve's, my introduction was with Pointers and when I saw them working with Steve I thought I really like them but I haven't got time for one and anyway, I ended up going with Steve, with Steve you know, for at least a decade before I got one of my own He obviously was ready to give me one anytime I wanted one of them. Was he? Yeah, because at this time all the Falconers, I mean I was very lucky to experience Falcon with all the continental Falconers who came over. Excellent Falconers. Stephen's kind of best friend Hawking wise with Christians Saar

speaker-0: breeding them all throughout this time. I've met. He's a vet. ⁓

speaker-1: I've met him super nice guy, I think, in world of Christian. And of course, I learned a lot from Christian. He really knows his dogs and loves his dogs, and that's what attracted me to Christian. Watching Christian as well, and he's a great falconer, like Steve, he appreciates his dogs. A lot of falconers seem to have dogs as a necessary evil, some of them. Whereas Stephen and Christian loved them, understood them, appreciated them.

speaker-0: Cliche isn't it?

speaker-1: And of course, I used to go with Steve, I was always carrying the cadge It was Steven's hawks, because I'd flown on my hawks at Dunrobin, I'd enough. ⁓ it's somebody else's turn and I could enjoy it with Steve. That was the beauty of it. Because it was his hawks and his responsibility ⁓ I could observe and have fun. And so by doing that, of course, every day when we're hawking, ⁓ most hawkers will tell you when they're grouse hawking, it's nice to be watching somebody else's hawk because you'll look... You enjoy it more watching somebody else because you've got so many. things to concentrate on when you're hawking. know, talk about multitasking. You've got to think about the weather. You've got to think about where the quarry is going to go. You've got to think about the quarry. Watch the dog. Watch the hawk. You know, the human eye is so slow compared to the, you know, and the dogs are all, the dogs and hawks are always smarter than humans. I say that tongue in cheek, but it's quite true. If you want to learn about falconry, learn from your dog and learn from your hawk. Because I always say to people, if you want to practice

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: grouse hawking at any stage, then you go out with your dog. You get your dog first from a good line. You've to be careful where you get your dog from. And then you'll spend a couple of seasons training your dog. If it's a good dog and it's obedience trained and it doesn't ruin the day, a falconer will be happy to let you run the dog with it. And then after a couple of seasons, if you've got that exposure to training it, then you can get yourself a hawk. It's not good getting a hawk and a dog untrained and trying to do them both at the same time. It's a recipe for disaster. But most people do it.

speaker-0: Because my big fear, because I've worked my Vizslas for John, know, and my big fear that the dog might do some damage to the hawk. Is that a legitimate? ⁓

speaker-1: very legitimate. Especially with some of the breeds are hard mouthed it's an English pointer you're wrong. you've got less chance of it happening even though it could still happen. you know some of these, German breeds which are great dogs, the GSPs and the wire hairs and ⁓ wire haired Vizslas and things, some of them are hard mouthing and some of them are...

speaker-0: Kill us. Some of them are

speaker-1: ⁓ Some of them have, well they bred for guard dogs as well. so, you know, you've got to expect, so, and if they're not around hawks and even if you use them for retrieving, they might think I've retrieved that hawk and then they end up with a hawk. Hawks are very quick to give a slashing blow to a dog's nose if a dog's coming in. I mean, than one of my dogs has run off with a hawk attached to its snout. ⁓ because it's just been nosy. It's not gone in to do any damage, but it's just sniffing around and then it gets too close and the hawk will leave the grouse. And then that dog's trained for life. Never do it again. ⁓ Just on the nose, they use his grab on there. yeah, so you want to practice grouse hawking, you can use all kind of. Pointing dogs for grouse hawking. Setters are very good, but anybody who knows about setters and pointers knows that setters take a little bit longer, a little bit different to it. mean, this is in the hawking scenario for falconers. mean, some of the setters are winning field trials left, right, center with the right. Great to watch, but in the falconry world. We tend to have dogs that are almost trained, or we think they're trained. And we love them and we get on and we have some sport with them. So they could be trained better and most of them will agree. Me too. So if you could get a couple of seasons under your belt with that pointer, that pointer will do well because you've got all the attention on the pointer then. And if you've got that pointer, I always kind of want... my dogs to, if I blow that stop whistle, they need to stop, you know, because many people know they see me working five dogs at a time each season. They'll all back each other. They're all in control. Blow that stop whistle and every single one of them will drop. You know, and if your dogs are under control, you can work them all. if you've got one dog on point, if you're working two a brace, which I normally do, or three, that dog may not have the birds. It may not, ⁓ may be, ⁓ dog that's holding the bird may be two dogs ahead. So dogs are great indicators where the point is as well. They can save the day that way. often you get, if you work in a brace of pointers, they run jealous and one will try and beat the other one or steal the point or ⁓ bite. And just lucky, mine don't. And I just work them together all the time and I let them work. And they seem to work it out themselves. Steve ⁓ would the first to say his obedience training with the dogs was But he need it. The dogs, they knew what they could get away with and Steve didn't mind. ⁓ he absolutely loved them and they absolutely loved him, which is great to see. ⁓

speaker-0: Right.

speaker-1: Steve used to always say in spite of him they ask good sport. one thing Steve could I find it amazing. ⁓ I I can do it some degree but Steve understood his dogs completely. The temperament, understood what they were thinking. I mean we'd be walking along, you know, and he'd go, And ⁓ I think, where's dogs? ⁓ And he'd walk, and right enough we over the hill and there's dogs on point. And he just suddenly just, the switch went off, and I think, he instinctively knew, probably because he couldn't see the dogs and one had gone that way and they'd not come back or something. ⁓ a dog had come running back and he ⁓ she's taken us to a point. I can tell she's just come back off a point. and we'll walk that way and we'll walk back with him and she'll turn right round and she'll go back to where she was and she'll be on point. And she's been saying, or he's been saying, where the hell have you been? I've been on point here for 15 minutes. My dogs do it. what I'm saying is, by watching Steve, I know they do it, because I'm watching for it and then I'll learn that they do it. Not all of them, most of them, but not all of them. And now I know that, and I find myself the same, I'm with the dogs and suddenly I think,

speaker-0: heard about that I've never seen that.

speaker-1: not seeing for while, they must be on point, and think they were, and I'll put the hawk up. I won't even see the dog. I'll just put the hawk up and walk, because I don't want to walk into the point. And very rarely, I wrong, ⁓ go over the hill and the dog's then sniffing about and I think, it's gone. It was on point. You know, all that's from watching Stephen and Christian as well, but watching.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: You know, mean, Stephen had so many dogs at one time, because up until the 90s, you couldn't bring your dog over because of quarantine. So all the falconers would come over and then they'd come to Steve for a dog.

speaker-0: ⁓ okay.

speaker-1: You know, and they just take the dog and this is how a lot of Steve's dogs didn't have the kind of obedience to end because different owners, they just wanted to work and they could just take a dog out. One dog would keep eight hawks served, you know, then the dog would think it's great. It's getting all the work itself every day. you know, and without too many dog skills, these falcons, the Italians, and they'd come over and just get Steve's dog and they'd take the same dog each season if they could sometimes. So they got used to the dog.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: So Stephen kept all them people going with dogs. I mean, anybody who knows Embercombe pointers is from Stephen. You know, look at Peter. Peter could do wonderful things with Steve's dogs that Steve knew he couldn't do because Steve was a different dog handler. I wouldn't say he was just different. Peter. I suppose for Peter it was about the dogs.

speaker-0: exclusively.

speaker-1: The law says Stephen could understand the grouse and the hawk ⁓ and the quarry. He true field craft. you know, he had a distinction, a doctorate in it. You know, and you can only learn by watching and listening.

speaker-0: But there's probably two elements of that. bit like yourself, you've got all the opportunity. You have to be the right kind of person to want to learn. I think so. To have this opportunity as well is pretty unique, isn't it?

speaker-1: I mean, yeah, Stephen made the opportunity for himself. You know, it's what he wanted to do. so wanted to get access to a grouse moor, which he did. you know, a branch falconry which is difficult to do. You know, it was carried out by wealthy landed gentry ⁓ who employed many staff. know, they had a couple of dog men. They had... professional Falconers. They obviously enjoyed the sport immensely but had the wealth to do it which kept it going and I'm sure it was very exciting. In them days they must have had so much sport, it have been incredible.

speaker-0: Well you've had a pretty decent amount of sport

speaker-1: I'm very lucky I am

speaker-0: Probably won't be seen again that sort of opportunity. Certainly not if Grouse numbers don't... Well, no, the whole face of it's changing

speaker-1: used to go to, ⁓ everything was a drive everywhere, different estates over the county and south of Inverness. ⁓ Stephen got access to grouse by doing the dog work and instead of payment for the dog work, was so brace of grouse in return. ⁓ And we made great friendships with the landowners and so we traveled a lot and I got access. through a lot of ground because of my job or two. we had, but now I would say, I mean, I haven't got the data to prove it, but to me it seems like 90 % of the grouse moors we used to go on have either got trees, turbines, rewilding, fenced off, split up.

speaker-0: Would you really say 90 %?

speaker-1: Everything I drive past I'm thinking that was great, that used to be good, we used to go there, we used to go there. To me it seems like 90%.

speaker-0: And then currently on the bit that's left, you haven't got the numbers that they used to be, have you?

speaker-1: Well, this is what pushed me to stick with tiercels So we started flying tiercels which are a one third smaller, so smaller so they'd catch less grouse they'd hit them. You'd have the same sport but not enough to do any damage so then they'd fly off the grouse they'd fly off chasing them. So they had to be more technical to hit them in the right place and hit them and then catch them. And it required more skill and they'd flush differently underneath ⁓ underneath a tiercel, they behaved differently and tiercels fly them down the same so they hit them then lost them then they got so whereas a falcon would hit them then chase them when they got up the falcon would overpower them on the side of the hill whereas a tiercel would often come back ⁓ over another shot another but so made as difficult as I possibly could by flying the smallest tiercel possible of course then the tiercel became deadly even the small ones was thought at one time ⁓ really suitable ⁓ for grouse hawking

speaker-0: so became deadly because they were

speaker-1: They got more access, ⁓ good dogs, flushed correctly, because I tried even harder because it was smaller. then realized if we stopped flying on August and started in young grouse were a little bit cleverer, again more difficult to catch. And then it was thought that the small ones ⁓ the end of the season, are, November, October, of October, November, December grouse, ⁓ it's really And right enough, we catch less grouse then, but we still catch enough. Because the have just got better and better and cleverer and cleverer and they're grouse. The grouse of course got stronger and cleverer too, so it was an even match. we were doing well at that and it was working, we were lots of sport, the dog were getting out. It wasn't a numbers game on the grouse but it was great fun and we had enough ⁓ have a nice meal at the end of each week ⁓ guests ⁓ we knew there was plenty left and breeding stocks and ⁓ go on.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: and we'd do some lovely burning each year and we'd do everything we possibly could to help. ⁓ And then we now hit with bird flu. And I think that's a big problem. I mean the turbines are a problem for all the... the migrant birds that come over because we'd kind of slow down on the grouse come November and we'd switch to woodcock because we got a fall woodcock which in the old days Steve would catch one or two woodcock but we wouldn't fly it would just be accidental that they get up and snipe with falcons doesn't work snipe with falcons they can catch them ⁓ but You needed something smaller to the more maneuverable cause it's Small tiercels is good for snipe. And so we kind of realized that we had here we had a very, very fit tiercel. Let's just kind of pull off the grouse. Now we've had some fun November and let's chase Woodcock. So then the dogs had to switch to looking for Woodcock and snipe.

speaker-0: work well with

speaker-1: which they'd find, know, they'd still point them when on the hill, even when they found them. But now they were looking from in different areas because we'd fly on the margins of the ground where the trees, bit of tree cover where we find Woodcock. ⁓ And we'd make straight for the snipe bogs where the snipe and rather grouse. And the dogs after a season of doing this seem to know the clock went, ⁓ it's November. ⁓ We're now Woodcock. And then of course we get a fall of woodcock so there'd be a few woodcock about as they come in. And then did switch and then instead of looking, they knew when I was walking that they were looking for woodcock, that's how clever dogs are.

speaker-0: his work I could close second for you.

speaker-1: It's different flight. As is snipe. I mean, lot of falconers would say, grouse are more difficult than snipe. Grouse are more difficult than woodcock. Woodcock are more difficult than snipe. It depends what they're catching. I would say that they're all equally difficult to catch. Different ways, they behave differently. I mean, the woodcock, you to have quite more, not I would say more than 50 % of them were a reflush.

speaker-0: Bye.

speaker-1: Because my little tiercel, the last little tiercel, once put woodcock in, ⁓ nothing going to get him back. He's going to go straight up there. If it was five times, six times. I mean, he used to fly like a ⁓ wild but he flying completely and it muscled up by this time. But you only have to feed him up on one or two woodcock, and they know how bloody good they are. And the snipe, it's the same. want previous tiercel to the last one. Like to knock them in, hit them and knock them in. But my last one, the smaller one, he realized binding to is the best, more success. He would them if he could, bind two and crashing to cover after them. And so he, the one ⁓ who was killed year by the wild peregrine on the He was one pound four, but he had six points, six World Cocks. One each day, one, two, three. When we had the fall of Woodcock. All fat Woodcock, not weak Woodcock. I mean, okay, they'd just arrived from across a week before or so. But six, six flights, six points, six flights, six Woodcock, six days.

speaker-0: In six flights.

speaker-1: you caught a snipe, so we do some snipe hawking because we had a few snipe, all these things have gone now. These are migratory birds. ⁓ You know, you know, we do indigenous species because the snipe nest in these breeds here. ⁓ But there was. ⁓

speaker-0: And you're half as space.

speaker-1: So last year, one pear nested just down there. The previous year, two. Before that, there was at least four every year in here, and curlews nested. And will tell you, there's something sadly wrong. Bird flu is to blame, I'm sure, for a lot. But if you block the migratory route from the tip of Norway when they come across to here, when they flow across from... from Siberia and into here and then they spread out across the UK. If you're going to put 150 miles of turbines, 600 foot high, six deep. This is one hell of a mincing machine for them to get through and past to land here when they're exhausted. I explained to you earlier when I was living down at the castle for 20 odd years, I used to go down the beach at night and they'd be landing into the sea. When they came over on the moon, I'd be down with the dogs and we'd pick them up and they were absolutely, I could pick them up, they're exhausted when they landed there.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: So imagine they've come all that way across, probably into a headwind, a bloody storm or whatever, and they're coming across and from me. And then they're coming in, trying to get in, and these bloody things are doing that. How the hell are they gonna get through? And they can't say, well, I'll go that way a bit for 150 miles. So that's definitely had an impact. I don't care what an environmentalist this says. They don't know.

speaker-0: Yeah. All right.

speaker-1: I'm saying that and I'm guessing, but the correlation with that, the build of that wind turbines as they come further down each year, my game books, know, because I can't know many I've seen, it's just exactly as that comes along, it goes down at that numbers. Same, but it's not just that, it's the field fairs that I can't review. ⁓ hardly any, you they've got to get, there's so many migratory birds come across there. species that obviously now don't make it because they've got that to get through at the end of a journey and then they're faced with that. It's crazy. It's crazy. anyway, ⁓ then bird flu on top. But used to have ⁓ a lot of fun with a snipe. It was exciting. The tiercels absolutely seemed to enjoy it so much. But every they caught, I never took them off them. I never wanted them to start carrying. But I didn't need the snipe to be honest. They need it more than I do. Whereas the woodcock, they would get the heart and the lungs. Same with the grouse. I always feed them the heart and the lungs. Straight away my hands in and they get that. So they get a reward every time. so they get their share. ⁓ And now all that's stopped. Very sad. I'm now at a stage when I'm wondering, is it worth even carrying on? Well, I don't want to have an impact on a species that's struggling to survive. don't want to take my hawks out and make it any harder for them, even though falconry is completely natural. ⁓

speaker-0: Yeah. Well, hopefully things will start to pick up a little bit. Populations do go up and down, don't they? I know it feels like you're on a bit of a down at the moment, touch wood.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, it'll take a lot for it to come back. Nobody knows, but it's very difficult to be positive. To walk out on the hill and see nothing or hardly anything with the best game-finding dogs, species we have, and hardly find anything, is not good for the soul. Not when you've spent years building up population managing it quite as well as you possibly can for nature to come in and slam you with.

speaker-0: nature though is it? I the bird flu is obviously... and that might not really I mean that who knows whether that's come from...

speaker-1: Yeah, I mean it's just a guess from me with a bird flu but I know it's virulent and I know it's a big problem and it's everywhere now and they will bounce back but whether it's an ally they have to, it's nature, it's natural as long as we stop messing about with the environment we'll never do that of course we'll keep changing thinking we know better

speaker-0: We can't end on a downer, so I just want a little recap for someone that's thinking of getting into it. You said go and see a club for a couple of years, observe. And you've also said train the dog before you get the fork and don't try and do everything at once. So it sounds to me like what you want to do is get yourself a dog, start training that, and then maybe go join a club and just watch for a couple of years.

speaker-1: the best way, best way to learn is to observe.

speaker-0: Yeah. And are there now any good books or anything you would suggest someone complete newbie who wanted to educate themselves? Is there anything you'd recommend? I know from what you said, hands on is the word to go, but.

speaker-1: I mean there's good books out there, you know, The hawk for the Bush.

speaker-0: the bush

speaker-1: Jack Mavrogordato ⁓ ⁓ excellent book. ⁓ you know, he had a professional falconer doing most of it for him, Leonard Potter, nobody's heard of Leonard Potter. ⁓ he was a professional falconer in scenes, but great ⁓ Glasier's books, and very good book

speaker-0: be a first book then if someone was interested that you would recommend.

speaker-1: Emperor-Frederick.

speaker-0: Okay.

speaker-1: If you can read Latin, get the Latin version. It's a Bible.

speaker-0: I can't

speaker-1: I mean, you know, it was written in the 1200s and very little's changed, knowledge-wise, because they seemed to know a hell of a lot then.

speaker-0: I don't think their telemetry was up to much though, was it?

speaker-1: know, telemetry saves a lot of hawks, it doesn't bring your hawk back. If it doesn't want to come back to you, it's not coming back. I'd often people at the castle and they'd, you know, ⁓ they're antis And some of them the row. Some of them want the row, but then end up listening. Some, some ⁓ it doesn't matter. You're wasting your The heart's in the right place because they obviously care. But they used to say, ⁓ is that not cruel? And I'd say, well, if the heart didn't like it, wouldn't be here. There it is. It's up there waiting for me. It can go do what it wants any time it wants catch its own dinner It's very fit. I go hunting with them You know the old days. you could trap a Peregrine falcon You had right to trap a Peregrine falcon in the old days. ⁓ You could trap it Tame it train it it loose two weeks where you're trapped it And if it doesn't want to stay with you, it can just go. All you've got to do is win its confidence and then have a good dog with you. And then as it starts to follow you around, because it's thinking it's a hard life out there, 50 % of us don't make the first year. One in three peregrine falcons, one in 10, sorry, make it to three years old with you. If they don't catch food themselves, they can come back to you and you'll feed them. They have that choice. You can't make them come back. They choose to come back to you. It's their choice. you train a wild take it back to where it used to live and say you can disappear anytime you like, but this dog's flushing game for you. Watch this. And they go, whoa, that's a magic dog. It's flushing grouse. Whenever I'm above it, I think I'm going to follow that dog. ⁓ And then when it catches a grouse, you run in and you protect it attack from another falcon or an eagle, which usually happens in the wild if they're on the ground with them. You stand there while they start eating. And they realise very soon that that person, that dog, this is a good, I could be, and of course they live for 20 years in that environment, you can keep on going. If they damage themselves, you can treat them. If they get an injury in the wild and they can't fly, they're dead. They get an injury with you, you'll just treat them until they're better and they go again. So it's a very special relationship. They don't need you. They've been in the wild in the old days. I mean, I've trained wild ones and tried to rehabilitate them. They don't want to go. They think, I don't want to go back out there, I was there and that's how I got injured, can I not stay with you? And I say, it's illegal I'm afraid, you've got to go back there. But then when they can't, when they're injured beyond re-release, then you can breed from them. If they're happy, if you, and they're there with another, they'll breed, then you've got their offspring, which if you need to, you can numbers out there or you can, then you've got domestically bred ones. work with and then you can breed That's how we managed to put the peregrine falcons back, went with a DDT. DDT wiped them out. Who did they come to to put them back? Who told them about DDT? Falconers. Said where's all the falcons gone? they found out it was DDT because it's crushing the egg shells. DDE, a by-product, meant they couldn't breed because he couldn't incubate the eggs. So when they went to get the peregrines from the cliffs, they said there's no peregrines. They alerted the world to this and they said no no it's not DDT, it's safe. Was of course. Then there's a correlation with thin egg shells, whether we're using DDT. And then what do we do? We've got no peregrines. We need this apex predator to control numbers. then it was down to falconers to put it back, which they learned to breed domestically and put them back again. So if they hadn't have had that falconry skill and understood the peregrine, there'd be no peregrines out there. Interesting.

speaker-0: So just quickly wanted to ask you about the breeding of the grouse. Is that saying you're happy just to talk to me about for a couple of minutes? Yeah. Well, tell us about it then, because I thought it was impossible.

speaker-1: Well, was an experiment that... but there's a few people very successful at breeding grouse. The bit is getting them back on the hill. The youngsters. ⁓

speaker-0: Can you start from the beginning with the feeding?

speaker-1: Okay, well, so Stephen and I had a breeding program. tried to breed grouse. ⁓ we got the eggs, ⁓ incubated the eggs, and then we had them in pens, which built out here. We went out and picked them up.

speaker-0: you get the eggs? Yeah.

speaker-1: Because grouse will recycle. So you can take the first clutch of eggs and then if you take them early enough before they incubating, then she'll recycle and lay another lot. ⁓ You'll have a later brood on the hill, but then you'll have two broods in effect.

speaker-0: So take the eggs.

speaker-1: So take the eggs, incubate them, the eggs hatch, we've built pens out there to feed them in and the critical time is when the youngsters hatch, because they need protein. And that was a difficult bit. When I say protein insect life, they need all that first before they start. Now it's a dangerous process because the cockbirds don't have any fear of humans once you've got the breeding cockbirds, it's what had in the pen too. We have breeding pairs where we got the eggs from as well. Eventually in the second season we kept them on and we had... So you'd off with the eggs from the hill, and you breeding stock back the next season. ⁓ And because you've them they're like chickens in a way, but they'll...

speaker-0: Wow.

speaker-1: they have no fear of you whatsoever. The cocks and when that breeding condition comes in they'll bloody have your fingers. No problem will they have you.

speaker-0: Peter told me about wild grouse doing that to him.

speaker-1: right, I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. I mean, can see, I mean, see them, they fly at dogs too. I've seen that. ⁓ Pointers, yeah, very territorial. Incredible. ⁓ mean, I've because I used to do the capercaillie counting as well. At Abernethy we did that for a couple of years with Steve and the dogs and myself and the dogs and cappers will go for anybody. So they're a bigger version of ⁓ a. ⁓

speaker-0: his hand.

speaker-1: So anyway, I'm digressing. We had them in pens. was getting the first initial protein. What I did is that at that time there was a machine called a midge master or something. People were using around estates, all around the estates here. You had a midge problem around the lodges. And they'd get them in a sock, like a big thick sock full of midges, because they'd attract them with the gas. And then, so I went around and said, look, could I get all your midges? Would you put them in the? Freezer for when I come next time and so we had that food that was quite good food for them all the midges frozen midges and Lumps and cakes if you like We kind of got over that by giving them that but then you are going to cut all the heather shoots and feed them heather shoots You can get pellets now So this is the initial days Every day we had, well I had to get on the hill and to cut heathers, very difficult, it's not easy to cut. You know, you could get a machine I suppose now but I was going with shears and then you had to tie it all together with rubber bands and push it through the hole so they'd all come in. So the feeding side of it was tricky. But now you get pellets and so that's, but them on the hill, putting the youngsters on the hill. They didn't seem instinctively to have the survival instinct of predators. This is when it fell apart.

speaker-0: for fellow. They just got hammered by everything, did they?

speaker-1: So we'd put them on the hill, we'd try and find where there's covey, a young covey. Or we thought we knew where there was young coveys and we'd release them there. then we'd ⁓ that the parents would adopt them. I'm sure they do in cases and I'm sure they did in some of our cases.

speaker-0: to join up.

speaker-1: very often we'd put them out where we thought there already a pair and a brood. and they started following us back. All we'd find them, we'd go down the road, they'd just be walking up and down the track. What a lovely day, sort of thing. know, the there, we've got resident Harriers, we've got, at that time, was buzzards there isn't now. ⁓ The Sparrowhawks are everywhere too, we all go, but they didn't last long. Right. They didn't last long. And we thought, we thought this is hard work for the returns and let's just get a box of matches and do as much burning as we could. And that kind of worked.

speaker-0: the floor in the plan. Do you think any... Do you get a sense of whether a certain percentage of these made it through to adulthood or?

speaker-1: like to think some did. I'd like to think some did but ⁓ rewards for the efforts wasn't good. ⁓ it was perfected after that. That was in the early days. There's quite a few people I don't know how successful they've been though. ⁓

speaker-0: to revive it if things keep going the way they're going.

speaker-1: Yeah. at end of the day, nature will the one thing nature needs, anything in nature needs, the first one, people talk about shelter, about is it good conditions, is it too windy. The one thing they need is food. food because they're constantly feeding all day long and vegetation and things anything in nature any animal if there's food then they want that territory be next the inconvenient place but if there's food they'll want be there and they've got to have food to bring up the next generation so whatever that environment is if there's food they'll come so if you create if you've got lots of young heather coming through if you've got lots of good heather you've got that's the will find it Grouse will find it, build it and they will come. Brilliant.

speaker-0: you tell me who's influenced you most or mentors? ⁓

speaker-1: That's a good question, many. I mean I've seen many falconers on the hills over the last 40 years. Most of them are now sadly passed away. Obviously Stephen and Christian Saar A lot people have a lot to thank Geoffrey Pollard for. He kind of pioneered Grouse hawking up here. He was the first one to come up here and he led the way in many ways, especially with all the ⁓ passage hawks he flew. Very falconer. my friend Scott Hawks with me, Paton, he's excellent falconer, excellent dogman. I've been very lucky to have him to help in many situations. and Alistair McKissack, very good falcon, a good dog man, knows his dogs.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: ⁓ So I ⁓ could think of many, many falconers who've influenced me over the years. I have a lot of friends who... ⁓ I only see occasionally through the season and ⁓ they have the same appreciation as I have so I class them as important too. They may not have record scores in falconry and huge success but they have success in the limited time they can hawk and they all know who I'm talking about, they're all good friends I'd be lost without them. The only trouble is there's no more falconers coming through the ranks anymore. the younger generation have discovered computers.

speaker-0: Well, you've told anyone that's interested what they need to do.

speaker-1: Well, they need to get a pair of Wellingtons and get out there and observe and make their own mind up in many ways. It's all common sense. Your dogs did very well today too. Especially the puppy. Very good. She got a cracking covey today and she did the same and she held them well. Very steady. Followed them very well. Stop and point So you're doing very well with your dogs too. You'll have to bring them Hawking next season. Okay, well thanks a lot Nick.

speaker-0: Getting out there a bit. Thanks Andy.

speaker-1: Martin Jones is a great dogman, great with his dogs. Yeah, he breeds hawks and dogs and he's got the same lines from Stephen and he was a very good friend of Stephen's. Great falconer, great with his dogs, great falconry furniture maker

speaker-0: on He breeds him as well, doesn't he?

speaker-1: John Gardner has obviously been a great help and he hawks with till this He's 83 this year and he's still the hill, ⁓ still going strong ⁓ and he's been very over the last of decades with inviting to Feith Moor to talk from all over the world. He's been very gracious ⁓ and ⁓ you know ⁓ Roger Upton has ⁓ very important. to everybody,

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