speaker-0: Today I'm talking to John Kavanagh, an upland habitat specialist John runs dog and handler training days on North York Moors, raising money for charity, which is exactly what we've been doing today, out in the moor, working the dogs and being reminded just how much there is to learn. So John, thank you very much for giving me the time to ask you a few questions. speaker-1: Thanks for inviting me Nick, it's a real pleasure to come in and out of the cold and warm and sit and chat to you. speaker-0: Perhaps we could start with how your fascination for the uplands began. speaker-1: If that goes back a long, long way, I was brought up in a little town called Middlesbrough. And believe it or not, it's on the foot steps, far from the North Yorkshire Moors. as a young child, my parents, my family brought us out. And I loved the wilderness and the wild spaces. I got up to ⁓ that I called adventures that other people might sometimes say was mischief. ⁓ and I joined any group or organisation that would bring us out into the North York Moors The Cubs, the Scouts, church groups, would have joined the Girl Guides if it brought me out to the North York Moors. I was fascinated ⁓ the sights, the sounds, the colours of what we have on our doorstep. It is a real beauty a gem. The North York Moors, and we have the lovely coastline as well, so I was torn between the two. ⁓ driven more and more to the moors One of reasons that was behind that is my mother was frightened stiff of me drowning as a child so kept me away from the seaside but we did spend a lot of time on the beaches. But coming out in through the woodlands and onto the moors was brilliant. When I become about 12, 13 year old I've got paper round. I saved up my money and I bought a bike. Bear in mind these are the days where kids didn't have helmets. We had flames, we had knives, we had that adventure kit with us. And I would be up early, cycle out into the countryside. explore, my adventures, go back home before the other kids in the street were even out of bed and would then go and do it all over again as a group. So it was fantastic and I really, really loved it. It got to the point where coming out with a school doing things like the Duke of Edinburgh's and the orienteering Groups and that kind of thing, you start to question, well, who manages it? So when it come down to your options at school and your careers advice, bearing in mind this is the late 70s, early 80s, you did what your parents did. If your father worked down the coal mine, you went down the coal mine. You in the shipyard, you went down the shipyard. Out of character, if you like, I said, want to be a gamekeeper. I've been onto the moors and I've learned that's the gamekeeper that manages this fantastic landscape. So the crazy advice I got was, well, you need metal work and you need technical drawing and design technology and mathematics and physics. So I studied hard at those subjects and I left school fairly well educated, I would say. I enjoyed school as well. Six O levels and I became an apprentice welder. As far away as what I wanted to do as possible, that mass open space that we have in the countryside was down to a inch by two inch screen ⁓ look at a bright light. ⁓ wasn't for me. ⁓ I was told that it was better to have a... speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: A trade behind you, before you went into doing anything like that, there was no future in, I was told in them days, it was the YOP schemes and the YTS's high unemployment. You should be glad you've got a job. I stuck at it for a while, but was always still drawn to coming out into the countryside and enjoying nature. I worked for Rolls Royce. doing that and sadly during that time we lost two children and my fourth child was born and I thought this is it I've got to change and watch my son grow up and the rest of my family as well. I applied for a few game-keeping jobs, did get offered some, had the opportunity of that and then thought well what about doing something in between which was dog training. So that brought us into the dog training side of it, being out in the countryside and training dogs, still dealing with people. And during that time you'd get asked to do all kinds of things. The phone would never stop asking you to do different things. the pinnacle of it being the red grouse. ⁓ And ⁓ it is superb fast, highly thought of. ⁓ But then they the passion for falconry as well. Not that I wanted to be a falconer, but part of my income on the weekend with the gundog side of it was doing gundog and falconry displays at country shows So then it goes into the real thing. I've had a few setters and to watch them work on the moor and to point a grouse and have a falcon above them. and then Chase, that fantastic pursuit, the Falcon Chase and the Red Grouse is absolutely the pinnacle. And you also, mentioned the Woodcock, Peregrine Falcons love Woodcock. We'll do a little bit more on the Woodcock. So that's how the passion for it started. Fairly successful at it, to be fair. To start off with, it was a struggle. Every bank on the high street said no. And it was a charity, which is why we do what we've been doing. speaker-0: All right. Yeah. speaker-1: change people's lives and it was the Prince's Trust, Prince's Youth Business Trust as it was then. ⁓ managed to squeeze in, this cut-off was 30 year old, I managed to squeeze in and convince a lovely lady called Jan Verrill ⁓ to support me in the business. Because I'd been working I wasn't entitled to any benefits so she gave me a loan. But by giving me the loan, the bank on the high street had to listen to open the bank account for me to deposit a cheque and then pay the loan back. And that was a great ⁓ difference because at the time I was very, very, I haven't gone through your business plan a million times with every bank manager, but I'm going, that will never make any money. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: So in that 35, 40 years things have changed. Dog training now is a highly desirable career. It was a kind of a pioneering thing when I said out banks just did not want to do it to the point where within two years... speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I was making money and I was given nominate for an award for one of the most unusual successful businesses and managed to meet our now king, which was Prince Charles. It's actually something that's still there, know, that we do still support the younger people and what they try to do and get out there and put their ticket on it. speaker-0: Thank you. what age were you then when ⁓ met the current King and had a couple of years under your belt? speaker-1: I'll have been 30, 30 year old. Maybe 31, Subaru pickup. Dog trainer written on the side, picture of a spaniel, picture of a setter on the other side, gundog and falconry. I used to get asked to do all kinds of things for training from being your pet dog. speaker-0: Yep. speaker-1: to some really weird stuff that you asked to train. One of the weirdest things I've been asked to train was to detect rhino horn in Sweden, where there are no rhinos. But was one of the things that's become one of their trade routes. that's it. We've gone about wildlife crime. One of the big wildlife crimes actually is far more serious than what we've seen in the UK internationally. We've got threatened species where they've been taken out. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: poachers and then there's a trade for that kind of thing. It is a wildlife crime. So it is something that was there, but yeah. speaker-0: What did you train to detect rhino? What ⁓ breed? speaker-1: I've gone over to Sweden to do some dog training and there one of the police officers on the course and that says to Rhino, you've got no Rhino in Sweden. He said, no, no, I know, but everything's clamped up at Amsterdam. They've tried to look for different trade routes. I said, well, if you can get the Rhino home, we can train the dog to do it. If you think about it, when it comes down to breed specifics, some dogs are air-scented, some dogs are ground-scented. Small dogs are fantastic for air researchers, but larger breeds are better for speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah. speaker-1: walk by if people have got something in their pocket or wrapped around the waist a taller dog would be better for that so different breeds in different scenarios rather than specific jobs so if it's going to search your suitcase there's a spaniel on a conveyor belt would be one thing but if it's in a public place the top of an escalator at the tube station people walking past so it's the it's it's the scenario that the dog is going to work in where you would be to do it speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: The spinal is the best weapon for detecting rhino horns. They can all do it. They're all capable of doing that. speaker-0: Yeah. To me, it doesn't seem like Rhino Horn would give up with a lot of scent speaker-1: We underestimate the power that the dog has. are only just, even today, we're just learning. Incredible, the dog. It deserves its name as Man's Best Friend because it can do so much for us. We haven't even touched the tip of the iceberg of what it's going to do for us for the future. We go so much in technology, yet Man's Best Friend is there waiting for us to unopen it. It measures the way it communicates can sense your ⁓ then your body language, then in the verbal or vocal command. This is why we've got the epilepsy detection dogs, cancer detecting dogs. It's detecting things without us even seeing anything. When we're them, our body language is a big part of how it portrays that. Before we've said anything, dogs are not brought on French, German, Italian or English. It doesn't know our language. We're supposed to be the most intelligent creature on the planet. What we need to do is to learn their language. And then we emulate that with the training, the social pack structure side of things. how simple things are, how would that work with a pet dog, somebody grabs the dog lead, the dog gets all excited, I'm going for a walk. They let it loose in the park, they get the dog lead out of the pocket to take the dog home, that's the end of the... same trigger but you're going to get different reactions. Dogs are clever enough to realize that, yet we aren't. So simple thing would be lead out back in your pocket, lead out back in your pocket. So your trigger is not this is the end of the walk, call the dog back, put it on the lead, let it go again. It's not the trigger that this is the end of your fun. We need to learn their language, not to try and get them to understand our language, which is well away from where we should be. speaker-0: ⁓ Well, we're gundogs and beyonds, so that's brilliant. I mean, the more I've speak to people, experts like yourself, the more I realise that I think I've been a bit clumsy with my dogs and haven't just been thoughtful enough about, I mean, that sort of thing is exactly what I want to develop. speaker-1: Yeah, well one of the things I've done with the dog training is always after the dog training, people train to the dog's strengths. What we really need to do is to find their weaknesses. Then you can build a training program for it. And what that involves is putting your dog in different scenarios to find out how it copes with it. Then sitting back. Your best dog training is have your cup of coffee. Where did I go wrong? wasn't the dog's fault. I've communicated wrong. I've messed up the communication with it. That's how we need to really start thinking about how dog training would work. speaker-0: And who do you think, who's most advanced with the training? Would it be someone like guide dogs? mean, who are the real experts out there? Who should I speak to next about that communicating with the dog and just the more advanced and thoughtful approach? speaker-1: I spent a little time working for guide dogs. Did you? I did. I didn't know you did. I did work for guide dogs and then I worked for Grover International Security Services. Who was the best at training the dogs? Usually females. speaker-0: ⁓ speaker-1: Their guide dogs are very very clever with how they understand the dog's behaviour and that comes into it. The way that they train their dogs is very very good. It's using their natural abilities for what their purpose is. That wouldn't always suit the general owner. A guide dog is to guide. It doesn't walk at heel, it needs to guide but not pull. There'll be situations where you'd put it in where speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: It has to disobey a command. speaker-0: intelligent disobedience. ⁓ Don't out in front of the car. ⁓ speaker-1: Stand by the car, give it the command to go forward. No, there's a car coming. So you're putting that... It is good stuff. ⁓ And then there's the other side of things. know, if you come to that, would that training suit a high drive track and attack dog? Not necessarily. So the training has to be flexible to suit not the breed, but what your final outcome is. speaker-0: Yeah. That sounds advanced. And even within Labradors, because they have a fairly extensive breeding program, they, Would that dog make a good gundog or are there elements of what they breed for that then wouldn't translate into a good Labrador, you know, field trial Labrador? speaker-1: When I worked with guide dogs, it was a lot of cross breeds. They breed a lot of their own dogs. Cross breeds, Gold Retriever, Labradors are one of the common ones. And they're going for a dog that has less drive than what you would want in a gun dog. And certainly a lot less drive than what you'd want in a competition gun dog. We want high drive dogs for doing that. their breeding program is absolutely perfect for what their outcomes to be. If you put that into a police dog situation, forty different police forces, forty different ways of doing it, some of them have got their own breeding program, some of them just go and buy donation dogs, you never know what you're going to get with a donation dog. So a breeding program is definitely the way forward to produce what you want for that outcome. speaker-0: We're getting completely off here but I'm fascinated by it because I'm learning lots and you clearly know what you're talking about. A similar thing is I think that we've just been out with HPRs and there's lots of different breeds there. our breeding program, we can't even call it a breeding program, it? Someone has a dog like me, they fall in love with it and then they wanna have puppies from it. There is no structure, some people have an attempt at thinking about it a bit more seriously, I went to France for a sire and it seemed that they had a better program, ⁓ fairly good public information, you could look at... the different pedigrees, how dogs had performed, what they'd achieved, the health, then they would give it a score. ⁓ is within Vizslas And they would also give it a score based on whether its traits were heritable and all this kind of stuff. So it feels more scientific, if you like, compared to us. But ⁓ you think when you look at all these pets, if they had a proper training program, you could do wonderful things, don't you? ⁓ speaker-1: We do have that technology and it is available, though not everybody use it. A lot of it actually comes from the sheep farmer. Estimated breeding values. So that's it's stemmed with that. So if you want to produce more wool, it goes into all of that. If you want more milk, more meat, more lanolin, it was all there. So we've used that for the dog side of it and it is there. speaker-0: All right. Yeah. Yeah. But not in, as far as I know, not in like HPRs or... speaker-1: It is there but not everybody uses it. Some people overuse it. So we've got a big thing where if we went back when some of the breeders were being developed, we didn't have the motor car, we didn't have the ability to go to France and use the chosen dog that way. Where's the nearest... Well that looks like a Cocker of Spaniels so I'm going to use it as a Cocker of Spaniels and the pups are going to be Cocker of Spaniels and you just bred whatever was... speaker-0: you speaker-1: was nearby to you. The philosophy then was breed close cull hard. It didn't make the grade, there was no emotion with it, you just culled it. We've now got ⁓ a change society where we can get in a motor car, we can use artificial insemination, we can transport sperm around the world, we can choose dogs and a lot people are doing that without actually seeing the dog. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: On the continent you're right they are slightly better than us in many ways because they have got things like confirmation certificates, temperament. These are the things that we don't look at. If you look at the Labrador and people would go, ⁓ yes it's hips, it's got a problem with hips, hips and eyes, that's what I need. ⁓ hang on a minute, there's hips, eyes and now there's this other thing and we go for that kind of thing. So people will check on the computer, they'll look into it, ⁓ there's a lot of red in that pedigree, it must be good. I'm going to use that dog. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: on my bitch without actually knowing whether that's going to gel together which is going to be a part of it if you're not knowing then what you're going to produce. We need to be... For me, when I bred dogs, I always used a dog that I'd seen. I would always check its testicles. I would always check its mouth, its conformation, its temperament, that kind of thing to produce, to go on to using it. A lot of people go, oh, it's a champion, therefore it must be good. I'll just turn it with my bitch and I'll let them get on with it. No, not the real thought that's going to do it. speaker-0: So there are breeding programs in this country that are more sophisticated, it's just I'm not aware of them. Yeah. Okay, so it might, and would it be fair to say it might be more in the, don't know, the army or police service or something like that rather than ⁓ gundogs? are people doing it in gundogs too? ⁓ I maybe, yeah, so I guess when someone like Buccleuch have got their ⁓ line labs, maybe they take a much more scientific approach. speaker-1: Yeah, and if you put that into pond size, The Beccleuch Estate are there back to the Labrador, the Labrador is a big pond, so therefore there's a lot more genetics, there's a lot more information about those genetics. When you get to a minor breed, it's few people that some will share their information and some won't share their information. It's a different pool ⁓ I think his name was, it's gone blank there, wasn't our topic. He was the German Shepherd breeder who brought in the hip scoring scheme. His genetic book is absolutely fantastic and it still stands today which made him a 50 year old. speaker-0: Thank you. Okay. So this is a genetics book by a guy called Willis You'll have to let me know. because I'm interested to learn a little bit about the basics. My Vizsla bitch has got a curly tail I'm not 100 % delighted with and I want to find out about the science behind whether if I breed from her we'll get curly tails, whether it's a heritable trait, whether... And my wife's a vet but that's not something that she's particularly knowledgeable at so I want to... speaker-1: to the get in. speaker-0: So let me know the name of that book and I'll it. speaker-1: You must always remember, it is, you put the best to the best and you hope for the best. speaker-0: Yeah, it's not an exact science then. ⁓ Well that was a very interesting segue. To get back to our uplands, although I've really enjoyed that, can you tell me what makes good wild upland habitat? speaker-1: Using that word wild is going to be loosely because it is managed. Our landscape is managed. We've got a population that's massively increasing that all wants its air, recreation, food, water out there in the countryside. The National Parks, where we've been today almost 75 years ago it was embraced as a National Park. Most of it is privately owned. privately managed, privately funded putting more more pressure on it by more and more people wanting their air and recreation out there. ⁓ We need to respect how it's been managed and it's not by chance and it ⁓ a one ⁓ cap fits all type situation. ⁓ If said farmland and they'd say, yes, you farmland, you have have wheat. But I'm a dairy farmer. Whereas on moor land they if it's moor land, you must have these different species of plant for it be moor land Well, this side of country, ⁓ North York Moors largest expansive heather moor land in the world, predominantly dry. In the world, Dry heath. ⁓ Think the climate. ⁓ you went into the geology and the climate, you would see there's a massive difference between the North York Moors and the Yorkshire Dales. speaker-0: is that. speaker-1: Yorkshire Dales get a lot more rain. If you went to Shapp, they get over two metres of rain per year. If you go to RAF Flyingdales their weather station is less than a metre of rain. So you can see the rainfall is completely different. To try and say, well, there should be more blanket bog on the North Yorkshire Moors Where does this blanket bog come from if the climate doesn't say it should have it? The geology beneath it, Yorkshire Dales a lot of limestone. North Yorkshire Moors, Sandstone, Free Draining, both are going to be free draining. How the peat was formed, everybody thinks peat is only formed in one specific way, it isn't. It's not always decaying wood. There are some peat farming plants that help us, that we can use. That's what we need to really understand and be able to work with that. The way things would grow if you grow Heather in the Yorkshire Dales it might take 10 year to get to 150 mil in the North Yorkshire males it will only take you three or four years. It grows a lot quicker. It's a drier climate that is going to change that that makes it grow. It's the warm side of the country the Pennine stopped the rain getting on the back. speaker-0: Is that right? speaker-1: with most of our prevailing weather coming from the west. It's what we need to understand. So when we say moor land the moor land in the North Yorkshire Moors are going to be different to the Pennines, the Peak District, Scotland. speaker-0: And I hadn't really thought of that in terms of different moorland. Is that potentially a reason why this particular part that we're in now seems to be very resilient in terms of grouse, where a lot of places up in Scotland have suffered in terms of the population and all over the country really, but this seems to remain a stronghold. Or is that not fair? speaker-1: No, it's a very fair question and you're right, you're not aware that these moor lands are different ⁓ nobody tells us that they're ⁓ For me personally, I think the grouse we have in the North Yorkshire moors are completely different to the Pennine grouse. Yeah, and ⁓ they're a lot ⁓ and people see them because they get used to people, there's a lot of visitors come to the North Yorkshire moors. There are a lot of visitors come to the North Yorkshire moors but not as many as they go to the Peak District National Park. speaker-0: Really? speaker-1: their grouse are still very very wild. So they see a lot of people but they still get up and fly off very very quickly. It is seen when we've been working our dogs the grouse will get up, they'll fly a short distance, settle back in again and they're not really that bothered. You went and tried that in the ⁓ speaker-0: Okay. Instinct. Cairngorms for example. I've noticed that. ⁓ I couldn't believe it when I first came here that they would take off and pitch back in again. ⁓ speaker-1: to the horizon in other parts. And then the way that the breed as well so if you look at the insect life that we have in the North Yorkshire Moors is going to be completely different to the insect life so when you have the chicks ⁓ there's a different food supply there for them. ⁓ Vegetation is slightly different, the weather, the grouse in the North Yorkshire Moors will have the sun on the back from the moment they hatch out, they're going to be a lot wetter. speaker-0: Yeah. And that can be really damaging, can't when they get really cold and wet at the wrong time of the year. So I guess there's less chance of that happening here than there is on the Dales, for instance. speaker-1: There is, and nature will tell you that to improve your chances you've got to breed more. So the Pennines and the Peak District there might have a brood of 12 eggs in a clutch. There might only be eight here. Nature balances itself out, which is something we don't really take into consideration with things. To improve survival success they will have a lot more. in some of the species that we have. You have other species like the curlew, they are very, very good. If they've got four eggs, sometimes you will get five. On average, you're probably going to get three. And then it's going to be the chick success rate. So the success is not the number of eggs, but it's how many eggs hatch and then successfully fledge, ⁓ which is going to be the big part of the conservation side of it. not just in the grouse, but in general. speaker-0: And in terms of the way that, ⁓ if you like, disturbance impacts the grouse behaviour, you think there is anything that if they become habituated to people they become braver? I'm thinking, let's say, of Ilkley, where there seems to be a population of grouse and then there's people picnicking not far away and stuff like that. speaker-1: Yes, and not just with grouse but with all species. you try and find an otter in one of the streams in the North Yorkshire moors, you're probably going have to go out at night, nocturnal species, going to be out there. If you go to somewhere like in Middlesbrough where I was born and bred, Albert Park, I've got otter in the boating lake, that are quite happy to come out and see people and be there. So yeah, nature can become used to the presence of people. speaker-0: Yeah. And from a dog training perspective, for working the dogs on the moors, what's better? Do you want flighty grouse Do you want brave grouse? speaker-1: It depends on what your final goal is. So I mentioned earlier that I was involved a bit in the setters. So the setter championships for competitive working setters, pointers and setters, they go to places where there's a huge number of grouse. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: You let the dog off the lead, it literally does one cast and it's pointing a grouse. That's not showing the running ability, the stamina, the way of coping it. So quite often you'll get a set of people wanting to go where the grouse can easily clear off or where there's very few grouse to get the dog running. It's not all about the point. It's got to be that style and pace and running and the coverage of the ground that would come into it. So that's something we need to consider with the HPR groups is what am I here for? I'm here for the experience. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I've been to give my dog the opportunity, I mean to see if there's a weakness there where I need to set my training program. It could be you've got a dog with a fantastic nose and we've seen it with some of the dogs and with some of the people who come, they let the dog off, it can smell a grouse on the top of the hill and it goes in a straight line to it and it doesn't cover any ground. so therefore it can be missing the game, depending on the wind direction. So we really need to start looking at it. Do we need that many grouse to be wanting to be there? Or are we trying to get the ground coverage part of it as well? Do we want the dog to build up its stamina, its strength? speaker-0: Exactly. I've been on, ⁓ I forget which the northerly one is, but it's either Lewis or Harris for grouse and they were sparsely populated and it was great to the dogs out there running hard, getting fit and really having to work. And I guess the flip side of that is a very densely populated moor. But you need, if you want to compete with your dog you need to be able to cope with both odds. speaker-1: That's the training side of things is what you're training for is you're training for the opportunity to occur under competition. So you've got to train under all scenarios. There's no point going, it looks a bit wet and gray and grim out there today, so I'm not going to go and train. When you go to that field trial, it might be wet, gray and grim. speaker-0: No. When we're talking about ⁓ the red grouse, can we talk a little bit about how conditions affect how it behaves? speaker-1: Yeah, season and conditions will change its behaviour. So at the moment, know, with February, they're starting, Grouse and North Yorkshire, they're starting to pair up and gain the territories. So we're getting a bit of a display going on with them. April time, it will go quiet. The hen will start laying its eggs, going down onto them, sitting quiet. The male bird will just be sitting up on sentry duty. it won't, it's behaviour will be completely changed. The weather will then have an impact on it. You've seen we've just done three days where we've had a variety of wind strengths today probably being the most windy. Not just the red grouse but in nature. If it's not sure what's coming towards us and it can't hear it properly because of the wind it's more alert and will take flight. Whereas other times if it's a light breeze speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: nicely settle down and into the heather speaker-0: noticed that on a stormy day the heads will be up yeah I guess because they can't hear what's coming and harder to approach speaker-1: That comes into some 25 years ago or something, I was asked to do some research. into the grouse which meant catching them on a night. We mentioned technology 20 odd years ago we were hanging on the back of a quad bike with a big net and a white light one driving the quad bike dazzling distract the birds catch them with a net now we've got thermals where we can step out of a vehicle and go and put a net on and catch them if the conditions are right. Again if you've got that windy night there'd be a bit more alert if you've got the conditions right everything's perfect. which brings us into another species I'm fascinated about the woodcock. The woodcock, I catch it now. So when we started doing the research into the grouse it was for Dr. Doug Wise and we wanted to understand the intestinal worms in the grouse and how we could control that. Being that boy that was quite mischievous we then started going well what else can we catch? So we would catch. speaker-0: Yes, let's talk about the woodcuts. speaker-1: meadow pipets, we would catch jack snipe that had come in, we'd catch common snipe, we'd catch woodcock, red wings, all that kind of thing. So we'd have a species night and how many different species of birds you could catch on the night for the research into the gut intestine of the red grouse. But the woodcock have been fascinated way before that. Before the probably mid 80s we had a period where the woodcock beak was very short. speaker-0: Thank I really. speaker-1: So we used to measure the biometrics of the Beeg and we never understood why that was. Some say it's because of Chernobyl and that kind of thing was going off. Who knows? I don't understand it completely yet. But I got fascinated to the point, my wife calls it an obsession, but I say it's a passion. With the full moon in October, November, I would go and sit out on a bank and watch the woodcock coming across. the North Sea and watch them landing tired and when they're tired they are easy to catch and I was fascinated by them. Learning through the grouse project that could catch them I set off where I would go out and catch them. Learning the way that we have the mythology of counting the breeding woodcock in the country where you don't find the nest yet with the technology we've got now it's much easier to find the nest. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: thermals we can got. speaker-0: ⁓ I'm ashamed at how little I know about them. can we... wherever they come from, the migratory ones, this is... speaker-1: A lot of come from Scandinavia as far as Russia, local movements within the UK. Back to what we're seeing about nature being movable, if we look at the UK at the moment, 30 years data on the counting of them under the current mythology, the south of England has had a massive expansion. speaker-0: Russia, Finland. Yeah. Over what time period? Over the 30 years? speaker-1: to the point where any surveys you repeat 10 years after that landscapes completely changes now a housing estate where they used to be woodland. So it shows in the data that there's a decline but in reality it might not be a decline it may be that they've just moved. Similar thing happened with gulls we've got we used to have landfill sites. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: on the landfill sites, we filled in all the landfill sites, that's all stopped now, but we've got big massive Amazon buildings growing everywhere and we were employing falconers to scare them off the roof with the Harris Hawks Surely we must have realised that the gulls have moved and they've seen the opportunity that we've given them by these huge vast roof spaces. Nature can move and adapt. With the woodcock, we watch the rodding male that's the display flight of the male bird and then we say well it must have a female and have the nest. speaker-0: So they're leaving let's Finland for argument's sake, ⁓ because getting too cold. Is it that they can't probe the ground because it's freezing? speaker-1: That is a big part of it, but that said, seen Woodcock arrive October, November and even in September, even though the weather's mild. ⁓ But big driver is going to be the temperature drop, frozen ground, that's going to start pushing them down. ⁓ And get reports now that ⁓ from ⁓ they've an influx of ⁓ Woodcock in the area, the cold front's coming behind it, you're going to expect them to come through. speaker-0: And where do they launch from? speaker-1: and the full moon would be a big thing as well for them to fly on. Moonlight is a big thing. It's a nocturnal species that a lot of people, this is where we've got the knowledge gaps. If you were a PhD student and you wanted to study ornithology, the woodcock would not be the one to choose because... Too difficult. Yeah, it's too difficult. You'd study a blackbird in the garden and get your PhD, make it the ornithologist where really the knowledge gaps... speaker-0: Right. Let's go. speaker-1: are in the woodcock and another one is the nightjar, fascinating species that, nocturnal species, why would you get out at four o'clock in the morning and go and try and catch a bird? Some of us do. speaker-0: So they launch from Scandinavia, they fly over. How dangerous is that for them? speaker-1: Tremendously dangerous, very, very dangerous. ⁓ speaker-0: What sort of, do you know, I'm asking lots of questions, do you know the distance that they would be flying over the sea? speaker-1: not off hand but they are short stopping so we have the oil rigs in the North Sea we have noticed that a lot of the species short eared owl being one of them it'll short stop onto an oil rig and then then gone again if it's the weather that's driving them quite often that bad weather will catch them up so then speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: It's going to make them tired. They may have set off. They've had a couple of days of starvation due to frozen ground before they've realised they've got to move so they're not in the peak condition. There's so many different factors. ⁓ The Woodcock at the moment, BTO are doing a study in how many collide with buildings on the East Coast when they come in. speaker-0: Yeah. The turbines must be a thing as well. speaker-1: wind turbines for me is going to be something that is going to have an impact in the long term. Not only on the woodcock but other species that will travel across the North Sea particularly at night. speaker-0: And do they arrive all along the East Coast or do they arrive at John O'Groats and then come down the line? speaker-1: They'll come across depending where they're coming from. Obviously if the weather drives them down from say Finland down into Belgium. So they will then come across. We do have some satellite data on Woodcock but it's a very very small amount. ⁓ It's the funding of a satellite to do it. speaker-0: Okay, so all the way down. speaker-1: We do have some data from the BTO through BTO ringing and recapture. 110 year old technology putting a ring on them, but there's still people doing out there. When you catch them, they put the ring on, you take the biometrics from them, you can measure them with them and grade them. not going to get that anymore data from them until you do a recapture. The study that they've launched about them colliding into static buildings, then yes, if it can collide into a static building, a wind turbine that's going around. speaker-0: In the dark at sea. It's going to be pretty tired. Yeah. So we lose a lot coming over on that, that dangerous. Yeah. speaker-1: whatever behind it. I think it's going to increase because we're building more more wind farms, ⁓ more and more collisions are going to happen but not be recorded. ⁓ Unless there's somebody out there in a rowing boat underneath every wind turbine catching what collides to it, we're never going to know. That's going to be a long-term impact that will probably turn around and blame on something else. As science often does with fills the gaps with saying the go-to being at the moment it's climate change. ⁓ If they've got a negative against, if they're anti-shooting, well it's because you're shooting. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And in reality, it isn't that at all. It's occurrence is that affecting us all. The wind turbines are taking a few out. think it's what's going to happen. speaker-0: So do these oil rigs get loads of all of these species? Yeah. speaker-1: You get lots of stories from oil rig workers that we were there one night it was a full moon and guess what the helicopter deck filled up with X number of species. Yeah red wings and field fair and short-eared owls and woodcock and the gold crest. speaker-0: Amazing. speaker-1: weight of a 20 pence piece they fly across and migrate it's known as the Woodcock pilot they say that it's too small of a bird to travel across the North Sea it must have had a lift off the Woodcock and it's there if you want to google it and research it the Woodcock pilot it will come up with the Goldcrest speaker-0: incredible. you Really? That's absolutely amazing that it could make that journey. speaker-1: It is and when so sticking to the woodcock for the time being catching them on a night we find them that they'll go to the same not just the same field but the same area of the field. ⁓ speaker-0: So in terms of the upland story that we're on today, when you say field you don't mean on the moor. speaker-1: Well, yes, this is where we're going to come to it. the mythology of counting the breeding Woodcock at the moment, we watch the display of the male bird. Once the male has done his bit, he doesn't hang around. He's polygamist. He could have two females, three females. I've found two Woodcock nest less than 10 meters apart. So what's happening and what's is... speaker-0: What time of year is this? speaker-1: When we don't count them till May, the earliest I'm finding nests is in March. I'm nests that, into the mythology of counting for every square kilometre we are looking for 100 hectares of woodland. We're finding nests on the moor where there isn't a tree for a kilometre. And this isn't just me, we've got some, well it's going to Durham University to do some further research into it. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: We're not saying that they've always been there, what we're saying is they could be moving there, but we are finding that they can. speaker-0: what you're saying is that the upland moor is good habitat for the woodcock speaker-1: which is unusual because is acidic soil and you wouldn't really expect the worms to be there. ⁓ we are finding lots of woodcock on moor land over winter breeding ⁓ the success rate of the chicks is better because of the moor land management. Pendant control. know somebody there saying recreational disturbance let's stop a bit of that. So the success rate of the chicks is slightly better. speaker-0: What you mean by that is at certain times of year you don't want dogs running around because you're already looking after ground nesting birds and they're benefiting from that. speaker-1: the protection that they're getting from the gamekeeper is suiting them so when people say to me and this happens in the woodlands as well is shooting having an impact on woodcock yes it's benefiting them because it's given them the habitat to have a higher success rate speaker-0: Yeah. And presumably the numbers that are actually shot, I people tend to be restrained with Woodcock, they? And the numbers that are shot must be a tiny percentage of, that you know, don't make the sea crossing or all these kind of other hazards they're facing. speaker-1: Self-restraint has been a driver rather than legislating people saying you mustn't do that. Self-restraint is working. ⁓ A lot of the estates now... not doing any woodcock shooting whatsoever others are making a living at woodcock shooting in between you've got well if you want to shoot one you can but you must take it and eat it which I've got no qualms with whatsoever if it's going to go into the food chain and somebody wants to eat it fantastic it's not having an impact on the breeding population there are other things speaker-0: Yeah. Would you personally shoot a woodcut? Have you shot? Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, I used to woodcock and I've eaten woodcock. ⁓ Somebody that trials dogs, I was always fascinated with why some dogs would pick them, some dogs wouldn't pick them, some dogs would pick them some of time, which brings them to that migration. Travelling across the North Sea, it absorbs a lot of the salt, the salt water from the sea. So its scent and its taste when it first lands is going to be completely different to one that was bred here or one that's been here for some time. speaker-0: Wow, okay, I'd never thought about that. So just because I've got Yogi, my Vizsla that was quite reluctant to pick up a woodcock doesn't mean that he won't encounter one that's just done a sea crossing. He might turn his nose up at that. I'm not out of the woods yet though. speaker-1: And it happens, it can happen. And it was the late Keith Erlandson back in the mid 90s that pointed out to me, know, a well respected gundog. It does make sense. It does make sense. don't know why you've got that. Some dogs will, I don't want that. speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. Are there other ways to tell whether it's a resident or a migratory bird? speaker-1: Because of its plumage there's not really much way to do it but by anecdotal evidence ⁓ we have a good guess at it whether it's been a resident breeding Woodcock. speaker-0: What are you looking? What are the clues? speaker-1: So one of things I've got is I used to do the same transects over some fields where I lived and what I would find is the resident one would still be there all the time, same corner of the field, same area, guarantee you can go and put your thermal on it, put your white light on it, it's going to stay there. Ones that are freshly come in would be in the same field but could be a little bit more flighty Or if they're fresh right, fresh right, they actually wouldn't move, dead easy to catch. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: You go out the following week, your resident one would still be in that same corner the others have now moved on. So you could take a guess on numbers, but the more scientific way would be to stick with the BTO mythology, counting them, the Rodding Mill, having your guesswork with that. Can that be changed? Science is only good for today. something else could come along. ⁓ we've got people that could actually find the nests and ring the chicks, we would see that there's going to be... ⁓ probably an increase in the breeding number of woodcock. If we're only seeing a rodding male this is going to be as well because in the south of England you've got that expansion, you've got people in the woodlands, in the farmlands, in the fields, recreational disturbance having an impact on them, ⁓ of deer that have, agricultural practices, obviously we would come into it, it's a complex jigsaw puzzle. ⁓ If you found the nest and you studied them and you got them they've got the success rate from the four eggs, how many hatch, how many fledge. You'd have a better guess rather than just a rodding male and going well there must be a nest. Well actually there could be two nests, so instead of four eggs there could be eight. How many are going to successfully hatch? Well there could be eight instead of two. How many fledges are going to go? Well there could be six instead of one. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: So the numbers... speaker-0: What are the numbers roughly? there any accepted? I mean it sounds like there's a range because it's very very difficult to get right. speaker-1: It is and it's one of the things you'd need a number crunch to really go on. So 2023 was the every 10 year we do the count. 2013 we showed a decline in Woodcock across the country. 2023 the north of England had a 20 % increase in in rodding males speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: this is what puts my theory into they've probably moved. They've probably been pushed from the south of England that urban sprawl, they're looking for somewhere fresh to go. The success rate's increasing because of the management, so more chicks are fledging, more are then staying in the area, more are then breeding again. So you're going to get that big rise. speaker-0: In terms of a view, would you even have a wild stab at how many resident Woodcock there might be and what that population swells to when it's at its maximum with the migratory as well? speaker-1: The migratory ones we estimate that there's an increase between one and one and a half million head of woodcock arrive in the UK in the winter. The breeding woodcock would be a guess and again it would be regional. If I had my laptop I'd be able to pull up some figures but off the top of my head I'm not sure so I'm not going to say anything just yet. What I will say is speaker-0: Yep. But might it be around 10 % of that or you don't want to pin your hat on to anything at this stage? Just give me a sense of the vast majority of migratory, would that be fair comment? Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ vast majority are migratory, it's red listed in the UK, still on the quarry list, that would cause some friction between some conservation bodies. Should it be red listed? I don't think so because I believe we are underestimating them, that they have a larger breeding population than what we work on. ⁓ I think we can improve because we've got the technology now to be able to find them. I think if they have moved into areas of the uplands, the success rates got to improve because we've already proven that with lapwings, golden plover, curlews, and in some cases the Merlin, the success rate from the predator control. speaker-0: Going back to the physical bird, the migratory, are they physically different? Is there a size difference? No. There's nothing you can do to... Because some people say the resident birds are a bit bigger. You don't buy that. speaker-1: No, the change, pre-migration, so at the moment we've got birds that are ready to migrate away from the UK back to Scandinavia. So they've gone through a period in the winter where they build up the body fat and you can feel that in the chest. They're now going through a state where they're transferring that into wing muscle ready for the long flight back. So by grading the birds doesn't necessarily mean it's had a rough time and it's lack of food. It's the state of where it is in its life cycle and whether it's going to fly or stay. ⁓ And the other thing would be we can't age them with the plumage. It's not something that's very easy, especially if it's at night. But you can age them whether it's a young or an old. As they get older, the legs get thinner. speaker-0: Yeah, that makes sense. But. speaker-1: as well so this is one of the things when you put the BTO rings on them you need to know if it's a younger and older bird or what size ring because their legs do thinner. Another thing about the anatomy is its ears are in front of its eyes so when it feeds it can see above and behind speaker-0: Thank Right? speaker-1: and therefore when it's flying if there's any blind spot it's along its beak. So this is where it could come into the collisions into buildings. If its eyes are on its side behind the tears it can see better behind and above and its worst point of vision is going to be directly in front of it. speaker-0: Yeah. So when it's on the ground, I'm thinking of the scenario where maybe a dog's pointed it. Or pointing it. Has it got a good vision of what's happening in that scenario? speaker-1: It has but it's very reliable on its camouflage. Nerves as well. absolutely it is. But even on a night in a field it's not hungry it's fed up it will stay in the open to avoid predation. It's the camouflage. speaker-0: Which is amazing. Right. nothing can sneak up on it basically. Because I'm interested in dogs and pointing and stuff. So ⁓ happens when ⁓ dog's winded the woodcock, ⁓ woodcock's aware of the dog because it's got good vision and it knows what's going on around it. And it sits tight, does it, more than other birds might? Whereas at one extreme you might have a French partridge or something that's going to start running. The woodcock would be sitting tight. Because the reason I ask is because I think that my dogs, when they come across a woodcock, they're quite often, they don't necessarily lock on to a straight point. They're quite often sniffing around and they've got their heads down. But that's not the bird moving then. Is that? That's just... difficult bird to scent or the fact that they've been wandering around beforehand. speaker-1: So if it comes to being spooked, so work on your dog is going to be during the daytime, the bird is going to be in its daytime roost. ⁓ It's only in very, very harsh weather, you'd really see them doing a little bit of feeding. Usually during the daytime, bang, they are solid on the ground. moving. Any movement is a sudden, I'm off. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I've got camera traps where I have seen the odd ones moving about on a night in the fields on the moor. You get that bob, they're trying to get the worms. Spring time, of that spring summer where we've had the successful breed. You'll see the parent female because she's the one that will rear the chicks, not the male, he's got no part. She will do it and the other ones will follow it. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: bringing the worms up which is all fascinating but in the scenario of working your dog that bird is going to clamp down. speaker-0: Yeah. So the dog that's sniffing out is just having trouble locating it basically. And whilst we're on that, what makes a good Woodcock dog? ⁓ Can we start with breed or are you going to say within all the breeds there's good ones and bad ones for Woodcock? speaker-1: Well the Cocker Spaniel was named because it was supposed to be the Woodcock Dog. That and the fact that from the same litter going back into the breeding that we started off on, if it was a big dog it's a Spring Spaniel, if it's a little one it's a Cocker Spaniel. And quite often it could be that. We have Sprocket Gate at the moment where people are saying well it's a cross. We've always had that. speaker-0: Yeah. yet. speaker-1: We've always had that. That's how we developed breeds was by cross breeding them. ⁓ So what would make the best one? If you look at some of the, we'll go to the HPRs. ⁓ A dog that's running too fast could miss it. speaker-0: Yeah. So you might favor a spinoni or a bracco maybe for that. speaker-1: dog that's going too slow wouldn't be quick enough to get onto it before it's gone. The methodical dog is working in a methodical pattern that would be the dog that's got more chance of finding it. When it would come to the breed speaker-0: Okay. That is... speaker-1: take a choice on that. We've got the GSPs, there's the Ferrari's at one end, the Spinone's at the other. What have we got in the middle? But then obviously there's the individuals within each breed. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And what about the British breeds? Was your setter good for? speaker-1: If you go to Ireland, the snipe and woodcock are a big part of their sport and the English setters, the red setters, the Irish red and white setters. speaker-0: They're all fantastic, they? You'd put them above the HPRs we do in terms of... speaker-1: When retrieving breeds, I would go to the flat court. People underestimate Peter Pan of the dog world. It never grows up. ⁓ it's not doing anything. It actually is. It's using the methodical to get the air scent and they've got a brilliant nose. Back to the detection side of training dogs, flat court retrievers were brilliant for detecting, scent detecting, particularly on the walk past. speaker-0: Yeah. Really? speaker-1: ⁓ past pocket height put that to the change that to the Labrador the Labradors ⁓ everybody wants to go and stroke it everybody knows it it's a friendly dog other breeds I'm not so sure what that dog is so I'll keep on walking speaker-0: because they've got a good height. Right, okay. So Woodcock were thinking ⁓ you like the British breeds, because they've grown up and been bred for that, the Irish breeds, that sort of thing. speaker-1: If you're saying do I prefer setters, pointers or HPR, if it was for me to buy it would be a setter. speaker-0: Yeah. And if it was a flushing dog, would obviously be a cocker, I guess. ⁓ would you? Yeah. OK. All right. OK. And whilst we're talking dogs, then, what's the different characteristics for grouse that you'd be looking for in a dog? speaker-1: I would probably go Springer. Well, again, the dog that's underestimated on grouse is the flat-court retriever. If you think of when we start shooting... speaker-0: Really? Yeah, brilliant. Are they? But what do they do with it? They're not going to point it, are they? speaker-1: No, but they're great at finding them for the retrieving. August, the purple heather, a lot of pollen, a lot of scent. Dogs that go diving in, taking ground scent, disturbing that scent, putting up the pollen, the air-scenting dogs are the ones, that would be the ones to work and be able find the grouse in those situations. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And in terms of pointing the grouse, what kind of dogs do you like for that job? Again, big set of fan. speaker-1: I've had three setters, a Lefanta setter which I got from Ireland which had a Swedish father which was brilliant. I used to do lot of ground nesting bird surveys using the Setter and she was brilliant at it. Even at 12 year old I'd be able to go and do a square kilometre survey and she was still fit enough to run. To the point where if you put her next to the Spinone you'd think the Spinone had stood still, it hadn't moved at all. She was fast. Flew falcons above her, black powder guns over her. speaker-0: It's a complete mystery to me why the... Because the Italians will use an English setter as an HPR. And I just don't... I... Because I was talking to Peter O'Driscoll about this, I think... I might have got this slightly wrong, but it's broadly there, that we, in a particular year, registered 200 English setter puppies. And in that same year, the Italians registered 20,000. I mean, it's their gundog out there, their most popular gundog. And yet in its own country, we don't seem to. speaker-1: Which you look, ⁓ people say the Italian Spinone ⁓ a plodder because of the heat in Italy. You've got more English setters in Italy ⁓ we do. It's the heat and there you go. ⁓ it's right. They use it as an HPR, an all round dog. ⁓ in Scandinavia, Sweden they retrieve, Finland, Norway they retrieve. Fantastic setters. Games are lot sparser, they cover a lot of ground. Just let it go. It's gone. ⁓ catch up with it later. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ If you look at the development of the gun, you'll see the development of the breeds that have come along it. going back whatever it was 100 years ago, the partridge manors know that they I own a grouse moor the 12 August were going on the grouse. 1st of September we go into our partridge manor and then when it comes into winter we'll shoot pheasants and the development of the gun and then the gun dog breeds have gone along with that so when they transported from wherever they might have their main manor let's go on to the grouse moors the dogs went with them the game keepers would have some of the dogs this is where the breeding would the cross breeding would come into it if it was one in season while that was happening and then to the partridges so you've gone from speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Working a setter and a flat coated retriever. then, ⁓ we've got this Labrador now, it's super fast. It's a brilliant dog. And that out favors the flat coated retriever. We're still working our setters, but we're going to let the Labrador have the retrieve. We've taken that out because of what we were doing. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: muzzle loading guns you needed time to get ready and prepare for the shot so they've still needed the setter but once the event has happened the Labrador can come in speaker-0: Yeah. And didn't they also use a ⁓ spaniel sometimes to flush? Yeah. So the setter would point, the spaniel would flush, and then the labrador would... speaker-1: And then you had land spaniels and water spaniels. And you can see how we've come along a long, long way with developing the breeds and the gun as that came along. speaker-0: Yeah, now I've always had an interest in the setters and I need to scratch that itch one day maybe. speaker-1: A lot of the English setters at the moment are sticky. They're running in braces and you'll get one will back another. speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: ⁓ there's a dog there, I'll point it. So we have created some issues. If you went to America, we're about tail action there. Tail action's completely different. If we look at where we need to be, I wouldn't go very far from what we've already mentioned, Scandinavia and Italy, to bring in an English setter. Ireland, there's some good English setters in Ireland. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. presumably some good Irish setters in Ireland as well. There is. And a few red and white. speaker-1: don't do it by the computer and looking at pedigrees go and see the dog go and watch them work and if you're going to choose a line that's the way I would go for choosing any breed of dog go and see them. speaker-0: Have you seen them working out in Scandinavia? speaker-1: have. I'm going back to Sweden in June. ⁓ speaker-0: And what is that, a ptarmigan and willow grouse, is that what they would be working on? Yeah? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. speaker-1: capercaillie the bird in the wood, it'll take you three days to find it so you will shoot it when you find it. Their hunting is completely different to us, they've got massive land, Sweden is a massive country, up to the Arctic Circle right the way down to almost Copenhagen, the Malmoor Bridge, so easy to get to, massive country, huge diversity in their wildlife and their hunting is different. speaker-0: you speaker-1: I'm saying hunting rather than shooting because they call it hunting. They hunt with a rifle. A lot of deer, a lot of wild boar, their attitude towards the deer and the elk. We've got a project now where we want to reintroduce elk into the UK. They don't want to eradicate them but they control them because they know they kill people in cars. Long legs, big body, it's going to come through the windscreen and kill you. They, and across Europe, you'll drive around and you'll see high seats next to the autobans, the motorways, to stop the wild boar and the deer getting on the road causing car accidents. The UK, we put up a sign saying, warning, there's a deer going to cross here. What a lot of people don't realise is that the deer is a herd animal. If one has crossed, there's more coming behind it. Every seven minutes in the UK, there is a car accident involving a deer. speaker-0: Yeah, and the population is just growing, it? is. speaker-1: Some of them are native species, some of them are non-native species. A reintroduction, an elk, which is a moose rather than an elk. To me, just because you've got the desire to reintroduce a species doesn't mean we've got the ability to just go and do it. It's not right for the animal, it's not right for the population. speaker-0: Yes. makes sense. John, because I've got you here and I'm asking all the questions I want to, what can you teach me about when I'm going shooting, I'm on the uplands and I clearly want to maximise my chances. Is there much I can do by reading the landscape in front of me or is that a mugs game and it's just let your dog run into wind. ⁓ find what I'll find. I'm talking about things like would you want to be in the the lee of a strong wind? Would you look for, I don't know, the side of the hill that has sunshine on it or the grouse so territorial that they are where they are and they're spread out in a certain density. speaker-1: not only to read the landscape, the environmental conditions, but the dog. So one of the things we've seen today is a dog's got on point, it's gone into the wind like that, and the handler has been, it's on a left-handed cast, the dog's got on point there, the handler's been here, they've walked into the dog, which has disturbed the grouse, rather than coming around behind the dog. speaker-0: Thank speaker-1: Lee of the wind conditions, scent is affected by the wind. If it's hitting the brow of the hill, a pilot gliders where they're going to find the thermal. It's eddy currents as the wind's hitting and it takes the scent up. speaker-0: Yep. speaker-1: Birds of prey, buzzards, red kite, where are you going to find them? They're going to be on that thermal. So as the wind hit the hill, it changes the scent. You've got that swirl away from it. If you go next to a woodland in the shade where the frost's been, in the sunshine, the scent, you'll see a dog take a line on a bird in the sun, and as soon as it gets into the shade, loses it. Because of the temperature difference, the scent's completely different. So you've got to take... speaker-0: Right. So you're more looking at the landscape and the conditions in terms of how to maximise the dog as a searching machine than going the grouse are going to be there because there's a bit of shelter there or the sun's there. ⁓ speaker-1: Read the dog and it's a complex jigsaw puzzle. It's more than one piece but if you haven't got the edges and the corners in you're never going to fill the middle in. So we've got to take the whole jigsaw puzzle and go right how can I get the best out of this? And a lot of the time the past years we've been training we've had the wind swing. Dogs alter their behavior straight away. speaker-0: Yep. Instantly, don't they? can see them, speaker-1: The hand still goes no, I'm going that way. Instead of accepting the dog may do a bigger cast now to one side than the other because the wind's changed. ⁓ speaker-0: Do you, I mean, sense something that seems particularly mysterious to me, but do you think you're developing an understanding of when Scenting conditions are good, when they're bad, or are you just learning that you can't predict it? ⁓ speaker-1: With scent, the conditions do make a difference. So first thing in the morning, hard frost, no scent. As the sun starts to warm up and the water starts to evaporate, so will the scent. And to learn scent, go and follow some foxhounds or a pointing breed. Them are the best way to learn. Learn from the dog. speaker-0: Yeah. Come. speaker-1: teach the dog that, but we can learn from the dog. They get the experience, the more we give them the opportunity to work the scents. We discussed this on the last thing, so we've got a very, very fast running dog. We get scent of the bird there, we get residual scent. The dog is running at a huge pace. It's passing these scent. It's got to put through its computer system. I'm running over terrain I've never been on before. I've got all of my limbs I need to put in the right place to make sure I don't fall over. And at the same time, I've got to work out, is that a residual scent? Is it a scent close to me, or is it a scent in the distance? So the dog is a remarkable computer that's processing all that information while it's running at 30 mile an hour. speaker-0: Pretty amazing. speaker-1: It is amazing and we need to trust it that when it goes, we've seen dogs today do handbrake turns, boom, I've got this. It's amazing to watch, part of the fun way we do it. It's absolutely brilliant to watch. And then it, oh, oh no, and it's gone. It's just checking, it's rebooting its computer. This is what I'm working on. speaker-0: Yeah, I love that one. Yeah. And do they go on a learning curve? Will an experienced dog be much better than a younger dog? speaker-1: Experience is a great way. So throughout the day the conditions are changing, the scenting conditions are changing. We're expecting the dog to realize that. The wind change direction. We're going to different terrain. We're expecting the dog to sit and process all that information and be 100 % consistent. We don't want any pointing. We don't want any residual scent pointing. We want the dog to produce a bird. We're putting an awful lot of pressure on that dog, aren't When mistakes happen, should we chastise the dog? Or do we use it as part of the learning chain? go, well, you've learned from that now. There wasn't anything there. Go on with ⁓ it. We are expecting an awful lot. At the same time, we're not understanding fully the potential of what a dog can show. We can learn an awful lot from them. And where we are, speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: with detecting things. If they can detect cancers, epilepsy, all those kind of things, then we've got a machine that we really need to make our best friends. speaker-0: That was really, really great. Thank you very much.