Abhishek Pinninti: Hey everyone, today we have Sharyani with us. ⁓ I would say she is the first guest for us from the VC ecosystem. ⁓ VC Lens which she is building, ⁓ it is very fascinating and I wanted to get her on board. Hi Sharyani, how are you doing and how is the VC ecosystem right now treating you? Sayanee: Hi Vishay, thank you so much for inviting me to your podcast. think this is a very big opportunity for the audience and for also me to understand what is going on ⁓ in the market of your target audience, which is basically early stage founders and focusing on B2C, B2C brands. So I think that's a big thing for me as well. As far as the VC industry goes, think it's a good time. Again, I think good times are coming back. Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. Sayanee: Funding is happening and yeah, very, very exciting times. And also with this all AI and new technology that is coming in, I think everybody is quite excited to see what holds ⁓ for the future. So yeah, quite excited. Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. Right. Right. I have a lot of questions loaded up is because I am building an agentic AI tool in performance marketing. So I sat down for a few raises for the pre-seed and you know, there's lot that I faced. So I have pretty much questions lined up. So first question would be you from being inside a VC firm to building a platform that teaches how VCs think. You know, why is that? What was the moment made you to switch sides? Sayanee: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I think I was on the founder's side first, then in order to understand things myself, I moved to the VC side. And ⁓ once I have understood both of those, then I think I thought of solving this problem. So ⁓ if I have to put it in this way, ⁓ I think both the industries actually face problems because of this, what I like to call as the VC language problem, which is basically not understand. Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. Mm. Sayanee: the terminology and not understanding the math behind what a VC is looking for in a company or what are the metrics. Abhishek Pinninti: We can also say awareness. Yeah. Sayanee: awareness also. So I think many good founders are actually not pitching the right thing to the investors which they want to hear and as an investor also they are also losing out on good companies which will potentially do good because they are not able to understand the ⁓ terminologies that they're using which yeah the language that they're using basically let's say creative founder will use creative language something related to their product. Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. Thanks. the language. Yeah. Sayanee: And it is not necessarily that the VC sitting on the other side has that much knowledge about the industry, right? So they sometimes don't understand or there is a communication gap which I have faced from both these sides. As a founder also, I have always faced a communication problem with the VCs. And when I became a VC, I have also always faced that problem from the other end as well. There are certain companies which I do not have a very good hold on on that industry. Abhishek Pinninti: you Yeah. Sayanee: but I have lost on that, which is basically a cost of admission for me. I'm losing out on good companies, right? ⁓ That's why I think the VC lens as a concept team evolved over time. It first started as a, I was like basically writing on LinkedIn about my experiences and ⁓ that evolved into this VC lens eventually, where I started writing more about the language problem. People started commenting on it. Then I started a newsletter on Substack, which got a very good response, where I sort of explained the ideas or what a VC is looking for for the founders. And I simplified it into their own language, which everybody can understand. So I think all these things together led to a situation where I thought that a platform would be more beneficial, more beautiful to... ⁓ Abhishek Pinninti: Thanks. Sayanee: solve this problem so that's why the VCLens work come exist. Abhishek Pinninti: Thank you. understood when you are saving saying this I I watched a video yesterday from a very good founder she has done to interest she was saying this you know a VC could only relate to problems that they face so so when when when someone is finding to solve a rich guy's problem which is basically you know niche market problem they would be easily funded Sayanee: Mm-hmm. Good. Abhishek Pinninti: So what ⁓ I felt that if the market is so niche, like if VC could relate to only this problem, but he can't relate to masses problem, like a lot of small and medium businesses or a middle class market brand. So how could a VC get the mindset of the consumer? Is this product going to work or not? How are they evaluating? Because they have never faced the problem. And they don't really know that the problem exists or not. Sayanee: Mm-hmm. Abhishek Pinninti: So what is your take on? Sayanee: I would like to just... Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's a very great point and whoever pointed it out, I think is very much true. Like very much... There is obviously like a personal bias when it comes to investing because in startups, they're... Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. and she is particularly talking about San Francisco's visa. Sayanee: Okay, okay, okay, that's interesting. So, ⁓ in early stage investing in general, in private equity, there is not enough metrics to ⁓ determine something very logically and very analytically, whether it is going to work or not. There is definitely a time, because, ⁓ like as investors say that they bet on the founders and not really the company in the beginning in the early stages, right? Even though Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Sayanee: founders personality is something that needs to be liked by the VC in the end. That's why they will, you know, kind of they will vibe with that person. So that is also something that comes into play. So those are definitely true. But at the same time, I think ⁓ the thesis of a VC is also very important, which I think there is a problem. I mean, it's not a problem. Like it's a it's a mismatch in information. Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. Yeah. Sayanee: an expectation between founders and VC which happens that every VC has their own thesis and philosophy also which they ⁓ focus on mostly. So a founder needs to also understand that when they go to a VC and let's say for example somebody is in sustainable startup or that that is something that they they are sustainable first come through right. So there are some handful of VCs who genuinely believe in that cause. Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. Right. Sayanee: So rather than spending time, let's say, in a VC which is like consumer focused or let's say profit focused or let's say revenue focused, you should go to a company with VC which is like sustainable. This is like a big important part of their philosophy. So I think there is also a matching problem between like a VC and a founder which happens. ⁓ That also leads to this unrealistic expectation that maybe they should like me, maybe they should understand me, maybe they do not have that biasness. Abhishek Pinninti: Great. on this. Sayanee: Because the ⁓ founders of the VC did not ⁓ experience those problems first hand like you said. They only have handful amount of experience. So that creates a difference. Abhishek Pinninti: Exactly. Exactly. right and also another I think ⁓ the question you have and the answer you have given was pretty much there I mean whenever you're going to a meeting with an VC you obviously he or she obviously you know filters out is this my thing or not so then you enter into the room of the VC then you know but if all VCs think so Sayanee: Yeah. Abhishek Pinninti: I'm talking about the pre-seed model right now, before the revenue. After the revenue, they are always open looking at the numbers. But I think it is pretty tough before, mean, in the pre-seed model where we have also faced that problem, you know. Nowadays, everybody is looking at traction and, you know, at least, you know, the beta users, how many have enrolled, is the product is actually fitting in the market or not. So if you, I mean, I... Sayanee: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Abhishek Pinninti: I majorly saw that segment of VCs. So what do you think? Is the pre-seed investing is still going on or it is just the traction after building the product you get it and then you can go to the VCs and pitch. Sayanee: So, know, it's human nature to sort of compare something which is always relative and not absolute. I'll explain that. ⁓ So, the pre-COVID and post-COVID market, if you see, the post-COVID market, if you see, there was a lot of inflation. There was a lot of bubble in the market when it comes to funding and the amount of funding that was happening at pre-seed seed stage was highly inflated. ⁓ to that what happened the correction happened first so that's why the number of amount of funding that you saw kind of seriously went down that that is one thing secondly because of this bubble many bad investments also happened which kind of ⁓ opened eyes of the VCs also that you know like only ITER will not work only founder will not work I need something more so I would say the it is a correction mechanism that has happened and not that the market has gone bad exactly. You know that the traction, this entire, this situation of traction and everything which is coming, well that is basically because of the fact that VCs have burnt their hands and there have been certain companies which has gone bust. So, overall the sentiment has gone down. But having said that, I also think that it is also on another extreme right now, which is like Abhishek Pinninti: Great. Sayanee: expecting way too much from a company which has not even started. Right. So that is also that is also there up to certain extent, but it will it will balance it out like in a let's say like I'm hoping like by the end of this year, that correction will also happen. Like it was in this extreme, then it went into that extreme. And now it is going to come at a point where genuine founders with even with an idea will get funded. And ⁓ even like Abhishek Pinninti: Hmm. Makes sense. Sayanee: not good companies even with a small amount of traction might be omitted. we are reaching there. Overall the Indian, to be like very specific about Indian VC ecosystem, it has not matured enough. It is maturing with time. So there will be like 10-12 and you will see a lot of instability in the market. But the good thing is that it is going. So that's the good news for everyone. Abhishek Pinninti: Next time. Mm. But when you say that, you might have also seen that there are a lot of SF based startups which have entered into AI agentic SaaS model, B2B SaaS models. I'll take an example of a company called Prompting Co. They have raised a pre-seed at a violation which is more, I mean, I don't remember, it was more than $20 million or $30 million. Sayanee: Mm-hmm. Abhishek Pinninti: I've seen a lot of similar startups like that, which is not by YC, but from a private investor, I mean, from a private group. how do, I mean, see, there are two different geographical variations there. Here in India, if we have to see the product, we have to build the traction, then a VC is building you. But whereas in the West, it's just the idea. And also I've heard the founder's background also impacts a lot for taking that call. So. Sayanee: Mm-hmm. Abhishek Pinninti: When do you think that shift is going to take to the east? because it's Sayanee: So, think that this, yeah, no, it is a very natural thing to happen. I think we are just 10 years behind in US when it comes to startup ecosystem. I mean, I have had the opportunity to work in San Francisco and I've seen the quality of startups that come and I've seen the amount of money that is there, you know, because it's like second, third generation of founders who are backing more founders. So, that ecosystem is not there in India. I think most of the are forced to be Asian founders. Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. It is, yeah. Sayanee: and also the successful founders, the amount of successful founders is low. You know, there have been lower number of exits. Overall the money is not there and the money will only have to come from the ecosystem for the ecosystem to survive or to thrive more. Right now the money comes from traditional businesses, right. The LPs which we call the fund actually is made of the money of the H &Is. The H &Is, ultra H &Is and more. Abhishek Pinninti: Hmm. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Sayanee: the LP profiles are people who come from traditional businesses. So it is very difficult for a VC firm to go and explain a new gen business to a person who has like only dealt with traditional business. the money is there, but it doesn't come that easily and it is not easily investible in startups as much as it invests. ⁓ And this will change after one generation turnover, like all these startups who are like the founders. Abhishek Pinninti: Thanks. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Sayanee: when they will become LPs, then they will basically bet on these startups. So that is what is happening in the US and that's why the valuation is higher and people get money at pre-seed and the money is quite easy to get overall. ⁓ Also I think Abhishek there is also one thing ⁓ that 20 million dollar valuation that you are talking about. I think there is also a little bit of survivorship bias associated with this analogy, right. We don't know how many people they rejected. There is one person who are dead. Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. ⁓ Sayanee: I know, I am agreeing with you that there is a startup out there who got invested this much. But we don't know how many startups got rejected for that one startup to get invested this much. So we only see the losers, we don't see the losers. So, the of startups, the amount of quality startups in the US is also higher, significantly higher than India. In India, it's still going to take some time. I'll tell you one... Abhishek Pinninti: Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sayanee: Interesting thing. I've also worked in African market and they are 10 years behind India, right? India was 10 years back when Zomato and all these companies were coming up. Where India was, right now Nigeria and Kenya are there. So they will take more 10 years to here. So answering your question, think 5-4 years it will take. Like a few exits are required for the Indian startup ecosystem to Abhishek Pinninti: Mmm, India. Yes. When? Yeah. Sayanee: Goodbye, Houston. Abhishek Pinninti: I mean it's a pretty broader answer that you have given. I really like the way you have explained it. Sayanee: Thank you. Abhishek Pinninti: And following up, that's your statement, know, most founders pitch products, but you say, you know, good ones pitch the ROI, you know, can you, can you, you know, take us deep into that and what is the single biggest mindset shift founder needs to make before entering the entering into the VC room? Sayanee: Yes. I think founders pitch their company like they're pitching to another founder. know, like a founder would pitch another founder, but they don't really pitch the idea that how you're going to make money out of my business, right? How it is going to serve your interest. Okay, you are good. You are nice. Okay, doing a good thing. But how does it impact your otherwise how it will help you to achieve your targets? That is something that I would want. Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. Sayanee: to founders to learn first and go and pitch it like in their first pitch only that this is how we are going to do exit and this is how you're going to make money out of us. So this I want all this to be very transparent about which I think there is still a little bit of hesitance. Two reasons for that. think founders don't understand that exit is a good thing. I mean, that is the only way that you make money. It's not that you have to create a legacy business. Abhishek Pinninti: Good. Sayanee: to make money. and second is I think there is not enough knowledge that how exit happens and how to determine those numbers. You how do valuation happens, how do exit happens, how do what terms are there in the exit that happens because the VC will ask you when you say that this is the way we are going to exit we will ask you how you are going to exit and what terms and to what companies at what value thing what is the form that you are going to take. Abhishek Pinninti: Great. Great. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Sayanee: that information for college that is there is there. So that's what I'm saying. Everything is like coming back to that one single point. like communication gap between the two industries. Yeah. Abhishek Pinninti: It is growing, yeah. I I meet a lot of founders who they don't even know what the term sheet is. Sayanee: Yeah, ⁓ I'm very thankful actually, I think they are educating the masses at a big level, which was not possible through any other media. So I'm glad that that happened in India and the way they have formatted their show, so it's quite good, quite convincing. Yeah. Abhishek Pinninti: So that's the stage. I Yeah. I Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Another thing, if a founder, you know, has 60 seconds with you right now, what should they say? They have a 60 seconds time with you, 60 seconds time with you. So what is the, you know, what I mean, how curated they have to be to grab your attention. Sayanee: 16 seconds. Okay. I think I would like to listen in this order that what is the market, what is the problem, what is the solution, how you are going to make money, how I am going to make money. That's it. Simple. Abhishek Pinninti: simple right. So, ⁓ let's say if it's a new problem they're trying to solve and it is going to take the founder has to make the awareness part first then build the know maybe the sales part later if that long the vision of a founder is how is the VC going to react for it? Is he ready for it to wait for that long or it is just his personal Sayanee: Mm-hmm. Abhishek Pinninti: you know, called to if he is also aligning with the problem, he is going to invest. Sayanee: So there are many few factors to consider here. First is the basics. What kind of industry is it? Does it really take this much amount of time to discover the product, discover the market, or build your niche, or anything like that? Let's say, for example, a heart tech company, a robotics company, will take at least four to five years to even bring their first workable prototype to the market. It takes a lot of time and effort. So that's one that a SaaS company will take probably a year to do so. Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. Sayanee: So depending on what exactly niche we are talking about, that's first. Second, like I said, this philosophy is also very important here that ⁓ what kind of companies do they invest in? they revenue first? Do they exit fast in your startup? Like there are certain big VCs which will stay with you, let's say, up to series C, D, until exit that you are looking about, right? Big companies will stay. There are very small funds which will come and exit like Abhishek Pinninti: All Sayanee: two to three years later. depending on what exactly that funds philosophy is, that is also very important. And third thing which I would say is, I mean it's a bit technical, I will not go too much deep in it, but if you, if somebody, if any of the listener understand this, there is also a fund cycle which is important. Basically, ⁓ there is, the investment happens from a particular fund in BC. BC can have multiple funds. that fund has a cycle of 8 to 10 years. So depending on at what stage of that fund you are investing, that is also very important. If they're investing at the later stage, they will need an exit faster. they're investing at earlier stage, they will need an exit later. So that also is very, very minor detail to understand, but that's something which is, I think, quite important to understand, how should you, whom should you reach out to? Yeah. Abhishek Pinninti: Thanks. very What do you know from a VC perspective again what do VCs actually evaluate in the first five minutes of the pitch and also follow up question to that they say a lot of the attitude of the founder is more considered in the pitch. What does exactly VCs mean for that? What is the attitude they check out in the pitch by a founder? Sayanee: Few things, I think they understand their problem solving capability. Now, I think, I know it sounds very broad in general, like it doesn't sound very specific, but I can give you an example if I have to elaborate on that. ⁓ I was in a pitching event once and there was a person, there were many founders who came with the PPT and they kind of, you know, went through the PPT, some spoke by themselves, some didn't see the PPT, some were willing, they too much invested in the product and everything. And there was one guy. Abhishek Pinninti: Thank very much. there. Sayanee: who came, who opened many tabs on his laptop and he shared the screen. He introduced his team through WhatsApp. He said that this is my WhatsApp group. These are the people who are working. See, these are the things that we working on. He scrolled over. Then he went to his LinkedIn profile. He said, these are the things that I have done. And then he went and he said that this is what we wanted to build, but we don't have money. So we have built this first so that we can earn money and then we will go and build this. But even if we can't build this because it will require a lot of money, this is our plan B. this is how we will earn more money to build this. And these are the two things which we have already launched. One is in the European market, one is in the US market, and in India this is what we are trying. You know, so the entire idea that problem solving capacity that like if I get money it's okay, even if I don't get money this is how I going to do it. And I am already doing it. I don't need anybody's assurance. But I came here because parallely if you give me money, it is going to make it faster. Abhishek Pinninti: Thank you. Thank I'll build it. Sayanee: So, I think attitude overall that you know I mean not not I am not talking about that he shouldn't get money or he will the person who get money, but the attitude that I will solve it regardless whatever happens. You know I don't need x number of factors for it to work. So, that is something that we look for definitely like the founder mindset or the problem solving capacity that if you have a problem how do you solve it ⁓ that is we are betting on. Second I think a founder is yeah. Abhishek Pinninti: Thanks. So, why being stills? Sayanee: So, there is a theory I am not sure what it is called, Liam's theory or something like that which says that if a non-living object if it has survived for a long time, it is likely that it will survive more, right. So, it works for startups also. If you have survived, you have to thrive. If you have survived for a long time, it is likely that you are going to survive more. So, that survival will be affected with something which requires that attitude in founders to Abhishek Pinninti: Mm. Sayanee: continuously survive and innovate and survive and innovate. Like they cannot see that I not getting funding so my startup will close. I mean it happens. I am not saying that it is something it is possible for every use case, but at least there has to be like an attitude that take it may be this is what I am going to do I am not going to let it die. So, that is one. Second I think. Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. Sayanee: At Preseed, we also look for the amount of dedication that a person has towards the business and not the product. Because we have seen, historically, every company pivots at least five times in their lifecycle. And pivot in the sense very much, like they pivot like A to B, pivot, right? So somebody who's like very, very passionate about their product, ⁓ I think... Abhishek Pinninti: I know. Sayanee: that is kind of a red flag in certain kind of businesses. Like if it lets you sustainable or like a yeah like something good for the society if that is kind of a thing then definitely obviously you need to be passionate about their about that product or whatever your mission is. But if it is commercially it needs to be viable if it you're looking into a starter which needs to be commercially viable then detachment from the product also is something which is kind of. Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. Yeah. Sayanee: important that we look into because that is going to pivot, that is going to evolve and if you are too strict about it, then it becomes difficult to survive. Abhishek Pinninti: When you say this, mean, when you say this, I mean, the first company which has come into my mind was Samsung, from being the grocery store to becoming a tech James right now. So they've started at something and now they're putting it to something else. And there are a lot of companies who went to bank bankruptcy and then they've become a profitable company. So, so Sayanee: Yeah. Abhishek Pinninti: The main agenda here for a founder is to survive in the market no matter what quality he building, no matter what position he is in. He has to be there and build a solution every day for any challenge he Sayanee: I mean you have seen a lot of founders complaining that ⁓ that XYZ got funded and but their product is like so beneath our product like we have built a better product than them but still they got funded and they don't even make Abhishek Pinninti: Then build your traction, bring in customers for your product if you have a good product with you. I mean, it's just a way of complaining what I see from a lot of founders. Maybe, I mean... Sayanee: Yeah. Yeah. Abhishek Pinninti: If they complain that way, the answer they have to build is to build the fraction to the product. This is what I've heard from VC when he was bashing me from a pitch. Sayanee: Yeah, so yeah, I think that happens. That's just how it is. Abhishek Pinninti: Right. And also, have you ever invested into any startup? And what is your niche as a VC that you want to maybe invest in the future or how is it going with you? Sayanee: I think it's nothing like that. Like personally, don't think ⁓ I... Like I'm not very passionate about any industry exactly. Like I am... I come from a background of finance, so I only see the metrics. I'm very objective about a business. So any industry which will make me money, I'll invest. It's not a problem for me. But I think it also... ⁓ Abhishek Pinninti: Thank Thanks. Sayanee: startups in funded business especially, think it also matters where the wave is because you make money more in the wave then you will actually make it fundamentally investing in the company sometimes. So it is easier to make money in the waves. Let's say for example if there is a IT boom then you invest in an IT company. is a like right now there is an AI boom so everybody wants a part of it. There are many companies which are very overvalued right now. So it is easy to make money there. Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. Sayanee: I think going forward, climate tech is going to be something which I am betting on. Like after AI, climate tech is going to be something which I think will do well. And ⁓ there will be a wave of that as well. So if I have to invest today, I think I've missed the AI, ⁓ this thing, because I were not doing my own thing when the AI happened. I was employed. ⁓ I have invested like through those funds, but I have not made my own investment. Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. Sayanee: But ⁓ yeah, I think if I have to invest myself, then I would invest in climate. Abhishek Pinninti: We are building an AI tool as well. Maybe if you are interested, will teach it to you. Sayanee: Sure, sure, Always welcoming good stuff. Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. And also, ⁓ thank you. And also, what exactly you're trying to solve with VC lens? Sayanee: like I said right there is a VC language problem that is there and I mean access to funds is not a problem frankly which I do think. Abhishek Pinninti: Is it like a, is it like a, right? Is it like consultation thing or like what exactly the flow works? How does it work? If someone wants to know. Sayanee: No, it's a community thing. It's more of a community thing which gives you tools and resources to help you simplify the concepts overall and make your chances of getting funded better. I think ⁓ accessibility of money is not a problem. I think there is enough. I think the number of rejections that a person get, we want to reduce that. Like you can contact, you sometimes get meetings also, but I mean, Abhishek Pinninti: Okay. Thank Nice. See ya. Thank you. Sayanee: That is very, very minute level thing, which we can't really get involved in because that's a lot of like that needs to be like worked upon like one startup to one startup, like on an individual level, it needs to be worked upon. at this stage, it doesn't make sense to work that way because it will not make sense economically for any company to function that way. What I'm trying to solve is that number of rejections you get because the training that you will get after 10 rejections is something that we want to use on day one. Abhishek Pinninti: Right, Thanks. Thank you. ⁓ late. Sayanee: so that you don't waste those 10 meters or 10 leaves that you. Abhishek Pinninti: Thanks friends, I think it is a very big problem that a lot of founders were trying to raise funds. Sayanee: In fact, there is also a very big problem which I am also trying to solve through this that there are certain companies which are just not investable. ⁓ It doesn't mean that they are doing a bad business, it doesn't mean that they will not make money. It's just that they will not make enough money for a VC to profit from because they are looking for a huge number of like they are looking for a huge exit right. ⁓ Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah, yeah. Sayanee: We are talking about 25x, 10x, 20x, 25x amount of return. And 25x, like for your information, is 2500 % return that you are looking for from a startup. So there are certain companies which are like very niche. They will make a 100 crore rupees business, but they are not fundable by OVC. They are not scalable enough. They are not venture scalable enough. So that is also something I want to create a very distinction for. I mean I want to create a distinction about it as well. So, investability versus non-investability is something that I am also trying to solve. There are many strategies which come to me and say that go for other terms of funding. VC is not the only way to get funded. There are other ways of getting funded as well. Abhishek Pinninti: Thank you. I think the work you are doing is, I mean, it is very, I mean, there are very few people that they are actually solving this problem and I think you are solving a very good problem and I have a lot of questions to shoot you more, but I think we will keep it short for this time and I think we will do a part two maybe later in the future whenever you find some time with us and by closing this, can you give a three Sayanee: Yeah, sure. Abhishek Pinninti: Can you give the top three advices to a founder who is trying to raise his funds for the company? Sayanee: ⁓ Top 3 advices. First, ⁓ was touching upon the last one. Understand whether you are investable or not. And not investable doesn't mean you are a bad business. It just that you need an alternative source of funding and not the most popular which is VC funding. So first understand that. Don't waste your time in something which will not give you results. ⁓ Second, ⁓ don't think too much about the product. Abhishek Pinninti: Thanks. Sayanee: Don't think, don't wait too much about the idea or the product or something which will change the world. Every idea evolves over time. Facebook didn't start with the idea that it is going to dominate the world this way. It started with a simple application. So start first, make it beautiful later. It will take time, will take time and effort in overall. Third, think, don't go starter for the sake of being a starter because you want to do it. I think... ⁓ Abhishek Pinninti: Thanks. Boom. Yeah. data. ⁓ you Sayanee: There's inherently certain qualities in a founder which sets them apart from everybody else. That's why there are so less successful founders. ⁓ understand that first whether you are capable of that level of tolerance and that. Do you have those minute things in you as a founder? ⁓ If not, there are better places for you to apply your skills to because the life of founder is not a very good one. It is a very struggling one. Abhishek Pinninti: Thank Thanks. Sayanee: It takes a lot of resilience and lot of tolerance and a lot of... Ego clashing, will happen. mean somebody who is like half your age will come and challenge and tell you that you will use this. It will happen many times. So you have to be okay with that as well. So you have to set aside your ego. You have to have a lot of resilience. You have to have a lot of tolerance for a lot of things like pardon my language but lot of bullshit out there. So you have to be okay with that as well. so yeah, these are the qualities that are required in a founder. Just understand if you are okay with that as well. Abhishek Pinninti: See Yeah. Sayanee: And if you're running a VC funded startups, you were thinking of running a funded company. Don't start it because you cannot tolerate your manager. Because our investor is significantly worse than a manager. They will make your life hell. You have to live with that for at least five to six years or till they decide to exit. So this is not just a better alternative. It is a very, very difficult job to do. Abhishek Pinninti: I know. Yeah. Sayanee: But it is very rewarding one, but a very difficult job to do. So, understand that and move forward. Abhishek Pinninti: When you were saying that it reminded of myself. I was building my fourth pivot into AI. I was into real estate, was into FMCG, I was into service based. Now I'm building a SaaS tool and whatever point you said, the ecosystem or like the fund management, everything happened to me since the last five years. And I think founder space is not something everyone can handle it. If you found it very gloomy, don't suggest, I mean, I'm sorry, not gloomy. Sayanee: No. Yeah. this. Abhishek Pinninti: ⁓ blooming I would say you shouldn't you should try it and you will exit it in the first year if you are not right for it Sayanee: Yeah, I think everybody should do it for sure. ⁓ Entrepreneurship is a one, it will teach you a lot of things but ⁓ I mean the level of... think being a founder is a job role in itself. wouldn't compare... I wouldn't say it's a job role on top of something. Like people say founder is CEO but I think many people can be a CEO. Not everybody can be a founder. You know what I mean? Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah. That's it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I know. I know. get it. I get it. And also, the point you've added that, you know, the investor is more cruel than the manager. It is absolutely true. You're working for someone else right now. I would add another perspective that being a bootstrap company, if you have... Sayanee: Yes. Mm. Abhishek Pinninti: This ego of not being managed by someone else, would say, be a bootstrap company, a revenue and make a profit out of it rather than taking someone else's and promising them and it's it. Sayanee: Yeah, that's and also I think ⁓ it is important for somebody who is going for like the funding given at the company initially. Let me tell you something. You anyway, you anyway have to make profit. You anyway have to make revenue because that funding will also not happen after the point. So you are just letting go of the top layer. You will you are just sacrificing that salary that you will get for a few months ⁓ in the beginning. Abhishek Pinninti: But yeah. Exactly. and Dr. Mechner. Exactly. Mm. Sayanee: Because after that you have to run a bootstrap company the way you... You have to do business in the end, that's what I'm talking about. You have to sell your product, you have to make money. This is going to happen regardless. So, ⁓ funding is important to those people who cannot even build a product without that money. But if you can arrange it from somewhere, like if you come from a good family background or if you have friends who can loan you money, even with a little bit of interest, think that is also fine. But with this, it becomes... ⁓ Abhishek Pinninti: Thank you. Yeah. Exactly. Thank you. Sayanee: It's a lot of pressure, mental pressure to actually handle it. Abhishek Pinninti: But to close with, would say I have seen this that Indian based entrepreneurs are good at building startups without funnel. If you see in terms of Zerodar, you see in terms of Zoho. We have that appetite of building something without money. Maybe because of the human resources we have, maybe because of the appetite we hold doing things without money. Sayanee: Yeah. Abhishek Pinninti: And if the fund opens up, think India is going to make better things to the world. Sayanee: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's Abhishek Pinninti: Yeah, yeah. Thanks for your time, Sahini. I would definitely want to do a part two and it's time-aligned, we'll definitely do one. Sayanee: Sure, will do. Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me Abhishek. It was a pleasure talking to you. Abhishek Pinninti: Thank you, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Birtan. Yeah, same with me. Thank you. Sayanee: Great, great.