Abhishek: Welcome to Wittelspod Pod. Today we have Gaurav and Harsh with us. Co-founders of ProActivo Commerce and let us hear about ProActivo's commerce and what do they do. Hey guys, how are you guys doing? Harsh: I have to look to find a machine, how about you? Abhishek: I'm doing great man. So tell me about what when did you guys ⁓ start this and why? Harsh: Okay, sure. Gaurav, would you like to start? Gaurav Shukla: Yes, of course. So Apsek, it was so great to ⁓ have myself here on this podcast. Now coming to the starting of this, well, coming to the name of Proactivo. ⁓ I got introduced to the word proactive when I was reading ⁓ the book The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Arkovai. I guess you read a little bit. So yeah. Abhishek: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gaurav Shukla: So there it was mentioned that we need to be proactive if we want to go long term. And this is one of the habits that you need to have always. So after that, you know, ⁓ I was in my bachelor's ⁓ and ⁓ I created some kind of ⁓ personality development kind of page where I used to ⁓ post some quotations. So proactive name stuck with me since then and ⁓ Abhishek: Right. Gaurav Shukla: Then after completing my master's, I got into e-commerce space. And after doing a little bit of e-commerce, I felt like the something I should create of my own. And ⁓ after that, the proactive commerce idea came into my mind. I started with that. And after that, because of some trademark and st and issues, I was not able to get the proactive name. So I know a little bit of Spanish, so I got the Proactive OCommerce one. Abhishek: Okay. Gaurav Shukla: So this was the ⁓ whole story behind getting the name. And ⁓ coming to what we do, we we are basically all about Shopify, the A to Z of Shopify. We are Shopify select partners. Like we proudly say that we have been collaborating with some really good Shopify brands from the past three to four years. And ⁓ and you know that's what that's what all we do, you know, regarding all the things regarding Shopify. Yeah. Abhishek: me. That was my follow up question as well. What did it actually take to get there to become a Shopify select partner? Gaurav Shukla: Well, you need to do lots of hard work, I guess. Yeah. Abhishek: Is there a criteria or how does that actually work? How do they check in and give you partnership? Gaurav Shukla: Yeah, actually, yeah, there are two ⁓ threshold that two parameters that you need to fulfill. The one parameter is actually you need to ⁓ collaborate ⁓ with 50 standard stores. So for example, you take the collaborator access of any store, you work on that store, and like once you work approximately for seven to eight days, then it is going to count as a collaborator. So you need to collaborate with 50 stores at least. Abhishek: cool. Great. Gaurav Shukla: Then you will be eligible to be a Shopify partner. Or there's one other criteria. You can refer two Shopify plus merchants to Shopify, which is ⁓ pretty tedious and next to impossible task. It's difficult. So, or you know, that one. In both the cases, you'll be getting the invitation from Shopify to be a Shopify partner. Abhishek: Hmm. ⁓ When you said proactively it just reminded me about my agency which I used to run. It's called Wittelsback. Now we have pivoted it to wittelsback.com. That's a whole different story. We'll get back to that. But it's also a German name. Yeah, it's a German name. Gaurav Shukla: Okay. Okay. No, I I I would love to, you know, ⁓ get a sneak peek about the name, like how did you ⁓ get to like introduce yeah. Abhishek: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll get back to that later. At end of the story, I want to hear your stories more. Now, I've seen that you guys have worked with brands across US, India, and globally. So, where do D2C founders consistently go wrong on Shopify? Gaurav Shukla: in my point of view, ⁓ for the in the beginning part, I'll be telling in terms of marketing, Hush ⁓ has a has a good grip on marketing. So in the beginning, I guess ⁓ you need to have a proper vision, like what do you want? whenever I start any meeting with any of the founder, the problem is dropshipping doesn't work nowadays, right? If your vision is only to make money, I guess you will be defeated because you know when Abhishek: Yeah. Hmm. Gaurav Shukla: Passionate people come into the picture, then the people who are just having that intent of making money, they get backlash because they cannot put in that much amount of efforts. So, in my point of view, you should have a really strong vision, which should be something related to yourself, like your life. You should be able to relate it with your life because without that vision being entangled with your life, you cannot actually push forward when there are some. Abhishek: Thanks. value. Gaurav Shukla: There are some situations in every D2C founders when they have to keep going where they have to push. And results do not show always. It always happens, results do not show like in that even manner. Right? BFCM happens once a once once a year, right? So there are spikes, you know, once, once or you know, twice a year, or when the sales season is coming up, but sometimes there are some downsides. So if you're having a good vision, I feel like this is the most crucial part for the beginning. Abhishek: I Yeah. Right. Gaurav Shukla: And after that, you need to do your research right. For example, if you're getting into anything, make sure you research well about that. Because without a proper research, you're just going to get inside of it, you'll start, and eventually you'll stick some, you'll stuck somewhere and you'll be like, Wow, where should I go now? Because you have not researched well about that specific product or service or anything that you're selling. So I feel like vision and research are the most crucial parameters in the beginning. Abhishek: Hmm. Hmm. Gaurav Shukla: And then after that, once you're having these two things right, everything falls into the place. You just have to go into execution. Harsh: Exactly. Abhishek: ⁓ So you say that branding is the whole game of building a D2C brand in nowadays. Harsh: Well, will say Abhishek here branding is a whole game. what actually Gaurav trying to say is that and I actually agree with him that today you will find a lot of D2C founders and they are starting out their brand. They will come to you because they see you as an expert in that category. But what they miss out is it's not only our job to find out what could be possibly done on your website, what could be possibly done for the sake of marketing of your products. But you as a brand owner should also be self aware a lot about what your product niches, what exactly your vision is, like what you are trying to build actually through this, what solution you're actually giving to your customers through this product. And if you have that clarity in your mind as a D2C owner, Abhishek: Right. Hmm. Mmm. Harsh: then you have a lot of things very clear in front of you. Like you know what kind of a vision you have, what you have, what kind of website you want, you know what kind of ad creative will work for me. So our job is to strategize them based on these decisions. But as a D2C owners, they should be a little bit researchful. that if I am starting out this particular brand in this particular product niche, then I should be aware of my competitors, what they are doing in the market. Then only with that particular guidance, we will be in a position to give them an optimal solution that should help them scale and grow in the longer run. Abhishek: All night. CRO is your core offering as per I have been researching on your website and everywhere. So what's the single biggest conversion killer you see on most stores you audit? Harsh: So the biggest conversion killer I see is that brand owners don't convey their exact message to their customers. So you will see a lot of brands if you go to their website, they will be telling about that. This our product has this our product has this our product has this and our product has this. But on a reality basis on a practicality basis. a customer who is landing on your website either for the first time especially for the first time he or she is not a repeat customer what matters to him or her is whether this product is relevant to me and if I am purchasing this product what benefits I am getting from it he or she initially doesn't care about what ingredients or what is the amalgamation of the things that has made this particular product Abhishek: Right. Harsh: they find out that whether this particular product is solving my X or Y problem or not. If not, then I am not going to purchase it because it's not value for money for me. So the message should be very clear on the website. If someone lands on the website within four to five seconds, they should be able to know that this particular brand on which I have landed just now is relevant for me. Abhishek: Hmm. Hmm. Harsh: should be able to know that what is the particular product line, is the particular message, what is the particular category and if this particular category or product is relevant to me or not. That's the whole game. That's how you make the first impression. And if within three to four, one or two seconds, a customer doesn't get impressed, doesn't get the information they have been looking for, they will switch away to the competitors website because they have got ample amount of options on the internet. So if you have to be unique, then you have to showcase these things. You have to make people aware that why your product is optimal solution for them. And that's where like you are mentioning about CRO. So that's where there is a funnel in CRO. So for every customer, there's a funnel in conversion rate optimization. Abhishek: Right. Yeah. Harsh: The first funnel is consideration stage. So for example, if a customer has gotten to know about your brand for the first time. So you heard about X brand, you went to that brand. Now you are reviewing that website. So that means you are in the first stage that is considering that brand. Okay. The brand is good. I have found this. Now, now you started reviewing their product. Now you started to think, okay, the products are looking good. and it can be possibly an optimal solution for me that particular product. So now you are at the awareness stage and once that awareness stage has been built solid, then you move to the conversion stage. And at last, the main agenda and the main objective of the having a CRO website is about having a retention and customer retention is going to happen in only way. whatever, whomever is making a purchase from your website for the first time should be your repeat customer. And that is the last stage of that funnel that is called loyalty. So if you are turning a website visitor to a conversion and ultimately turning that conversion into a loyal customer, there comes your CRO strategy. That means your strategy has been on point and you have been able to retain your customer. That's Abhishek: Hmm. Makes sense, makes sense. I think you've kept pretty much everything, you know, in plate. And also I am more curious about store speed. You know, it is the most underrated metric all e-commerce businesses, you know, owners considering it. So how much revenue do you think DTC brands actually lose for a slow website? Harsh: So well on that case, Gaurav would be the ideal guy because he has a development background as well. ⁓ He'll be the one that can enlighten us on that particular part. Gaurav, would you please? Abhishek: Yeah Gaurav Shukla: Yes. well that's a really tricky question. ⁓ when you're saying that how much revenue the D2C brands lose. ⁓ I should say that I'm gonna answer that in such a way instead of losing the revenue, well, it will be a final ⁓ thing that the brand will be losing, but they will be losing awareness and visibility. They will be losing the visibility because there are three things that I always put directly proportional. Abhishek: Obviously. Hmm. Gaurav Shukla: That is search engine optimization, speed optimization, and accessibility. Well, in India, the ADA's laws are not that ⁓ critical and not that strict. But in US, if if you if your website is not ADA accessible, ⁓ then as per as per like WCHG 2.2 standards, then the D2C founder can can get sued and ⁓ the the amount that they have to ⁓ pay as a fine can exceed up to 25,000 US dollars. It is pretty unrealistic, but ⁓ there are people who who have been filed and ⁓ like who have been fined in that way and they have to pay the taxes, like in that way, they have to pay the fine. So, in my point of view, when you're saying that ⁓ what do you think about the speed of the website, how it is going to affect? I think that first of all, in terms of conversion rate, it is also going to affect the conversion rate. Abhishek: Hmm. Thanks. Gaurav Shukla: Because nowadays people are having really low patience. They want the things to load quick. So if I, for example, go to any website and it is loading, even if it has taken ⁓ three seconds or something. I have read somewhere that ⁓ 82% of the people lose interest and they switch to any other website. Because nowadays we are having so many options out there for a single product niche. So, first of all, the conversion rate is going to be badly affected. Abhishek: Hmm you lose interest Yeah. Gaurav Shukla: And even 2% conversion drop can result in you know million dollars loss in the sales, right? Now coming to the visibility part that I have mentioned. When it comes like technically speaking, the Google crawlers, the Google algo works in such a way that if the speed of the website is low, then in the same product category, if your website is having slow speed, then the SEO is also going to be affected and the Google is going to rank your website lower. Than your competitors who are selling the same products. So technically, low visibility that means, and of course, people less trust the brands who are visible at the bottom of the page or to the second page. Sometimes you don't even go to the second page. We stick with the first page. So here, low visibility, and people will not be able to even find you. So the SU is also going to be affected. And along with that, when it comes to accessibility, Abhishek: Right. Gaurav Shukla: The thing is, ⁓ there are many technical things, for example, putting all text in images, and there are some small things, there are minute things, which are actually which works the same in SEO, which works the same in speed, and they work the same in accessibility also. So technically, if you're working on one, you are knowingly, unknowingly ⁓ affecting in a positive way all the three things. So it is not just about revenue, it's about visibility, it's about Abhishek: Mmm. Gaurav Shukla: ⁓ it's about conversion rate and it's about more of a brand because you know what kind of impression that that website is going to cast if it's loading slow. It's similar, like you know, you're going to to a really fancy restaurant and ⁓ they are taking forever to open the front door. So you lose interest and you go to the next one. So, in my point of view, it should be, you know, it is something that is pretty crucial, but it is not just one thing. There are many other aspects that come into the picture. Abhishek: Great. Yeah. Yeah. Gaurav Shukla: when it comes to conversion rate or when it comes to, you know, building a website. I guess that answered your question. Abhishek: I know. Yeah. During these times of quick commerce, taking over and everybody wants everything in quick span of time, 10 minutes at your home. How can a user wait on your website for long time and wait for it to load? Simple layer, as simple as that. People are expecting things in offline and online, why will they wait for so long? Gaurav Shukla: Exactly. Yeah. And And even you know, ⁓ two days ago, the Google has dropped some really revolutionary things. ⁓ have you heard like the UCP thing? The way the Google has transformed their search, it is absolutely mind-boggling because now initially there was an option of Google search AI, but now it is all in front of you. Don't have any other option. Like you need to make sure the website is optimized in that way so that it is being recognized by the search engines, and at the same time. Abhishek: Yeah. I know. Harsh: Exactly. Gaurav Shukla: Well, it has just been dropped for four four to five countries. The UCP where you can directly search from Chat GPT. Like you can directly check out from Chat GPT. You can directly check out from Google search. Literally, they have got their accelerated checkout Google Pay button on their, you know, ⁓ Google search ad. So for example, you search something ⁓ on Google. For example, let's say ⁓ kitchen supply products, and there's a walk that comes up and ⁓ you you see there, you compare to three to four products, you check out. Abhishek: Mmm. Harsh: Okay. Abhishek: Yeah, yeah. Gaurav Shukla: The customer will not even be going on your website. So your your area comes into the into the picture of marketing. So when it comes to this, we need to make sure the marketing is done super right, like both organic as well as inorganic. And ⁓ and at the same time, when it comes to this feature, I guess it's right now just ⁓ just live on ⁓ in US, UK, Canada, and Australia, just four countries. So unfortunately, we're not able to experience this, but I guess pretty soon it's gonna Abhishek: Yeah. Right. Gaurav Shukla: be rolling out here also. So we are getting impatient, I guess. Abhishek: Yeah. We Harsh: Exactly and with this update you earlier what happened was like You have to make your website as for the customer How they will be searching out on the Google search engine based on keywords based on any particular questions they have but now you have to train your website as for the AI because Instead of a customer taking a decision on a Google search engine now AI will shortlist the brands Abhishek: Great. Mm. Mm. Mm. Harsh: on the basis of the information on the basis of how you have presented your services online or how you have presented your products. Now AI is going to shortlist those two to three brands for you and give you the result. So yeah, it's getting in a way darker way. They are trying to become. Abhishek: Hmm. Right. Right. So, I mean, this is only for, ⁓ chat GPT or Gemini and Perplexity are also doing it. direct checkout in the engines. Gaurav Shukla: ⁓ this feature is actually right now launched ⁓ in Google only. So I guess it's right now only available in in in Gemini, yeah, like Google Gemini, not the accelerated checkout thing. But when it comes to product visibility, that is that is in all the LLMs, like all the ⁓ agen tick storefronts, like wherever you're gonna search that, the product popping up, that is a real thing happening. But the checkout thing, see the thing is Google is a Google is a godfather. Abhishek: Okay, Gemini. Okay. Right. Gaurav Shukla: ⁓ perplexity can be in the picture, chat GPT can be in the picture, but Google has been there when I was six years old. So the thing is, they have got their own payment systems, they have got their very large database, they have they have got all the things in-house. So that is the reason they they were able to pull off this move. Otherwise, they have to borrow the API of payment from any other person and stuff. So I guess that's the reason they were they were able to launch this first. And I'm definitely sure. Abhishek: Mmm. Mmm. Alright. Gaurav Shukla: Pretty soon it's going to be live on many other ⁓ HNTG storefronts also. Yeah. Abhishek: right and chat gpt has also launched its ads ⁓ i think it's been two weeks since it's launched its ads so everything is now shifting towards see it's all about placement when a d2c founder comes into picture where does he does his or he or her product sells more is it on amazon is it on any other marketplaces or is it through meta or google ads or is it through Gaurav Shukla: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a pretty Abhishek: organic marketing or is it true? Is it? It is the first thing that a DTC startup founder makes, you know, choices on. But now with, you know, AI, I mean, AI engine starting ads, I don't, I mean, I think there should be a platform where it suggests them that you have to spend your first thousand dollars on this to get, make revenue because it's so, I mean, it's so confusing for them to play. Where should I place myself first? There are n number of places. What do you guys think about this? Gaurav Shukla: ⁓ Harsh, you want say something here? Yes. In my point of view, Abhishek, if if there will be some kind of a playbook like this, then ⁓ there will be hard competition for marketing ⁓ in the like marketing ⁓ companies. ⁓ I feel like ⁓ to be really honest, marketing is a bubble that few are able to pop. ⁓ the thing is, sometimes some ad campaigns, for example, let's say it's a jewelry brand, some ad games. Harsh: But you can go ahead. Abhishek: Yeah. Mmm. Gaurav Shukla: Some and some ad camp campaigns are gonna work for one and it's not gonna you know work for another. Same product niche, same geographical location, and same kind of you know a target audience. So I feel like there is there's never gonna be any ⁓ you know specific ⁓ well, it will be really helpful if there will be some kind of a roadmap that you have to spend, you know, this much ⁓ this much percentage of your ad ⁓ money in in this ⁓ Abhishek: Yeah. Harsh: me. Gaurav Shukla: in this ⁓ marketplace, ⁓ like X amount in this marketplace. But I feel like it all comes down to hit and trial. You try several things and then one hits and we call that a strategy. I mean I mean sometimes ⁓ I mean sometimes it of course we always visions envision something before implementing but ⁓ at the same time it doesn't always work. ⁓ Abhishek: Hmm. Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Gaurav Shukla: And ⁓ the moment it works, and I guess you know it it just have to work once and everything is else is going to be corbed up. So I guess you know there's never going to be any playbook and there'll always be ⁓ good marketing agencies like yours who are going to make good use of AI and ⁓ we all will be in a win-win situation. Yeah. Abhishek: Thank Yeah, I think we have discussed too much of technicalities but let's come back to founders journeys. know, both of you two founders, how do you your decisions when you disagree? Gaurav Shukla: Well we discuss, we we discuss a lot. And ⁓ this is a question which you know on which we can we can have ⁓ subjective answers. But in my point of view, Abhishek, ⁓ the more you discuss, the more you resolve conflicts. And a a good discussion, a good transparent discussion is going to sort out most of the things and misunderstandings. Abhishek: haha Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gaurav Shukla: The problem arises when you do not let your heart out. The problem arises when, see, in India there's a saying, I guess there will there'll be many people who will be watching from India. So though birth and to khatkengehi. So the thing is, if there are two people working together, it doesn't matter we are founders, we are friends, or we are just you know normal colleagues. If we are working closely, there will be altercations, there will be disputes, there will be disagreements. Now Abhishek: Hmm. Night. Gaurav Shukla: Now the part is how we are going to resolve that. Because at the end, if we want to be together, right, ⁓ on this journey of building something for D2C, D2C, ⁓ in D2C ecosystem, then we should place ourselves as we versus the problem, we versus the misunderstanding, we versus that ⁓ that disagreement which is there. And there we need to discuss and put our point of view. Abhishek: That, yeah. Hmm. Gaurav Shukla: And then you know, a proper good, good, good, really good discussion and everything is going to be sorted out. That's my point of view. Abhishek: When you are saying this, I ⁓ just heard this line that we tend to put out the most hardest conversations out with our favorite ones or with the people who we work with regularly. When you have that hard conversation, many of the conflicts get solved. Harsh: Exactly. to be honest Abhishek, like last night we had the hardest conversation. Before that night we had the hardest conversation. We do, we do have hardest conversation almost every day, not every day, every night. So basically the thing is, but the most important Abhishek: You Gaurav Shukla: Yeah. Abhishek: I think then you guys are doing great Harsh: Well, we don't know. So the most important thing is Abhishek, what matters is that before me and Gaurav are partners, before that we are friends. Because at the stage where I met Gaurav and Gaurav met me, we were nothing. We were just two graduates who came to incorporate. And for us, the Abhishek: You Yeah. Yeah. Harsh: what e-commerce was it was just Amazon and Mindra. We were knowing nothing about e-commerce apart from Amazon and Mindra. But after that we have been through that stage. We have grown ourselves in corporate in this e-commerce journey together. We have seen each other's ups and downs because you must have heard that there's a lot of politics that goes around in incorporate. But when he joined Abhishek: Hmm. Hmm. Mmm. Harsh: We didn't have any experience. So we were not aware about politics because we came from college. We knew that if I am considering this person as my friend, so he is also considering me like that. But in corporate, the things don't work like that. And there have been many situations. But what we saw in each other, we always treated us not just a particular person that we have met in our company, in our corporate. And once I leave that company, Abhishek: Right. Right. you Harsh: There is no relation between us. The day we met and the day we started bonding, our ultimate goal was that like I'm talking about the time when ProActivo was not in a picture, but it was our always a goal that either we work together or not, we'll be always in stay in touch. Things changed and we have taken pretty hard decisions. It was not easy for me and Gaurav both. Abhishek: Right. Right. Harsh: to quit our job at a very young age and start this particular venture not knowing whether it would work or not. But what mattered most was it was trust. The trust I had in Gaurav, the trust Gaurav had in me that no matter what happens, we have seen those ups and downs and I think and we think that we are going to make it. So at the end of the day, no matter the Abhishek: Yeah. Yeah. Harsh: disagreements happens between me and Gaurav. We fight a lot, but when we do the hardest conversation, we don't do it as a partner. We do it as a friend. Because I know that if I'm talking to Gaurav, not a founder, I'm talking to Gaurav Shukla, my friend, we'll be understanding me more. yeah, that's my opinion on that particular thing. And that's how we have dealt with so many things, so many hard conversations and we're still going. Abhishek: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah. Hey. Hey. Yeah. Harsh: and we'll keep on going like that no matter what happens. Abhishek: and what was the hardest, you know, client situation you have navigated and what did it teach you? Gaurav Shukla: I I want to answer this question. I want to answer this question. So Abhishek, ⁓ there was there was, you know, even you know, once or twice we we came into this situation. Well, it's a really lucky situation. So it's a funny hardest situation. There were two different clients who came on the same call and they were having an absolutely different requirement, and it's the first time we were getting introduced to them. Harsh: Yeah, I'm gonna flip. Abhishek: Mmm. Mm. Gaurav Shukla: It was a really hard conversation. And ⁓ and you know what? When I was talking to one, the other one was not understanding the situation and they were just interrupting in between. Thankfully I was having Hirsch, but situation like these, these are you know the funny hardest situations which I'm ever gonna remember. ⁓ when it comes to Okay, I'm sorry. When it comes to the you know, serious hard situations, Hirsch, you can go ahead. Abhishek: Mmm. None. Harsh: Yeah, so when there are things go are going to get south. So we start, we don't panic at all. Like we think that even I have seen that sometimes me and Gaurav are having hardest conversation of our life and having the biggest disagreement with each other and still we are laughing in between that. So that's how Abhishek: Mm. Harsh: the thing changes and that's how you work with people you want to work with in a longer run. Abhishek: Yeah, being calm is the biggest asset as a founder that we have to, we guys have to carry on at any point of situation. Let the world burn, we have to stay calm. Harsh: Yeah. Thank you. Being calm is also a thing. Yeah, stay calm and not being greedy as well. Because it's no matter if two persons are working together, although they are friends, their mindset can be different. But you have to see, you have to see yourself not as an individual sexist, that I as a Hirsch want to grow. No, it should be, my brand should grow. That is proactive work on one. Abhishek: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Harsh: And if if the partners that you working with have that approach in mind, then only a brand grows. Abhishek: Mmm. Harsh: So yeah, that's what I think. Abhishek: Yeah, I'll tell you the hardest navigation we have done. You know, they were, we were handling socials for like few brands. Okay. So our social media manager has posted a different brands content in a different brand. And it was there for 24 hours. And both, both the clients, you know, had a very, you know, Harsh: Okay. Please. Abhishek: ⁓ bad know hit on us we had to face a lot of issues and yeah that was the hardest navigation we had to do I mean it was now it looks very funny but at that point of time it was like really hard to be in that shoes Gaurav Shukla: When it comes to situations like these, I guess Habishek, they pop up pretty often. Especially when you're working with a team, ⁓ I feel like these things are pretty obvious. I mean, let's say for example, if any development is going on, let me give you one funny example. So, you know, nowadays we use Cloud, you know, ⁓ pretty much, and it is a very instrumental tool if you need to ⁓ get any kind of ⁓ creatives done or coding done, anything if you're having the problem. Abhishek: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gaurav Shukla: So what happened was my developer is a little bit tight in terms of English. So he has searched certain functionality in Hindi. Now what happened was Google has given the whole HLL and in the comments, the Google has like in the comments, it has actually explained about that code in Hindi. So the funny part is the guy has exactly copy-pasted that code into the theme, okay? And now Abhishek: Mmm. Hmm. Gaurav Shukla: When I was getting it scrutinized and speed optimized, the other guy said, ⁓ Gorov, ⁓ I guess the code is written by some newbie or I don't know, it is in Hindi. It was it was pretty daunting to me. I was like, what really? Because it was a really big client, and I was like, I went through it, I of course rebuked him. But the thing is, these kind of situations are sometimes pretty tricky. You have to navigate, there's no other option, but the thing is. Abhishek: Yeah. Yeah. Gaurav Shukla: Sometimes you have to take hard decisions if the problem is really big, but sometimes you can just, you know, ⁓ act like a founder, do little bit of rebuke and let it go and Abhishek: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I know that. And when you say, when you have mentioned, you know, Claude and all of that, if all these AI generated stores and no code tools everywhere, you know, what's the argument for hiring a Shopify agency in this times? Gaurav Shukla: Very good question. I'll be having the same question for you in terms of marketing. Okay. Abhishek: marketing. Yeah, I know. Now that's why that's why now we have completely puted it to an AI tool. Gaurav Shukla: Abhishek, there's a quote that I read that AI makes smart people smarter and dumb people dumber. So AI should be used as a tool to actually make us more productive, make us more superlative in terms of our work, whatever we do. So I guess we can definitely use it as a very incredible tool, which is just outstanding. You just need to make sure that you tell that AI, like whatever, you know. Abhishek: Yeah. Right. Gaurav Shukla: whatever agentic ⁓ application, whatever LLM you use in, you just need to tell him the right way, ⁓ the right thing. That's it. And you'll be getting the answer. Now nowadays it's a very strict point that always comes to us why we pay this much amount of dollars when we can have ⁓ you know a Shopify there's a sidekick, Shopify has generated a really ⁓ fentabulous tool. It's It's you know actually embedded AI, which does all the things. You ask him to update the product descriptions, you ask him to update ⁓ any specific collection, you ask him any specific question, any generic question, he's going to answer it in a really beautiful way. So the thing is, we can never escape from AI, but at the same time, you cannot live only with AI. Now, as I have mentioned, the quote smart people is smarter. Now VI is smart already in terms of this specific arena. You are smart when it comes to marketing. VI smart in terms of Shopify, store, and these kind of solutions. A person who is in law is smart in law. A person who is in finance is smart in finance. Now, if they are going to use AI in their arena, they are going to be more productive. They are going to be making more numbers, right? In terms of money, in terms of following or whatever. Now, in our case, Exactly like that, when you ask AI or when you ask Chat GPT, the solutions that you get are the solutions only. They are not highly optimized conversion-friendly solutions. And for that, we come into the picture. The thing is, Abhishek, whenever you ask anything to AI, he he he's nothing but lots of information that is flooded inside, and out of that. Abhishek: executed. Gaurav Shukla: you know you he just ⁓ they have got some you know language learning models based on that they map the specific keywords extract something out and give you a ⁓ human tone ⁓ output or like whatever kind of information or output correct the thing is when these kind of things are happening if anybody doesn't know about Shopify then even when he's doing anything it Abhishek: information here. Gaurav Shukla: There might be the case that in the front end the store is looking good. But in the back end, you have asked about speed optimization. We have we have talked about SEO. There are so many things that get hampered. So in that, then there will be a rerouting which is going to be done. It's the same situation when you're getting your house built by a cheap mason. And then when everything, you know, you you do it, you save a couple of bucks, of course. Abhishek: Mmm. Gaurav Shukla: But at the end, the end result is not satisfactory and not up to the point. So, in my point of view, AI storefronts are really great if you are drop shipping, if you don't have any money, if you're doing it for fun. But if any D2C founder is serious about their business, if they want to go ahead with it for a really long term and they want something serious, something that is logical, something that is something that is on which we can talk about. Abhishek: Yeah. Gaurav Shukla: It's not just, you know, one prompt thing. I guess in that situation, we Shopify experts come into the picture and we create a situation, a win-win situation, where they do not, they do not feel like they're just paying money when there's AI, but they feel like they're paying for the experience that they will be getting out of what they are they will be paying. Abhishek: Right, completely makes sense. I mean, it comes to all the service based businesses out there. That is the whole point. You your client cannot use it directly. Okay, he can only get the information. But whereas you as an expert use that information and make it more better and faster. Harsh: that And with that, we'll... Exactly. Abhishek: And I think that awareness should be there in terms of the ⁓ clients who comes in and says this can be done through AI. Harsh: Exactly and with that reference I like recently on my Instagram I posted one quote as well that AI can definitely replace us when it know what the client wants. So basically it was about that ⁓ when client come up with an idea, a brand owner come up with an idea, they have got n number of things. They have got 50 of things and out of those 50 Abhishek: Mmm. Harsh: there are 30 or 30 maybe 40 things they are unsure about. There comes the experience of that expert that listens to those 50 things make them realize that the things that you are unsure about are the right things and what else can be added. Abhishek: Yeah. Right. Harsh: That's where you can get the help of an expert but what AI will do is totally dependent upon you. The information that you will feed, the results it will give you. No other thing he or she will do. Nothing. No suggestions, no advices, just the information that you have fed at him, he will give you the response on the basis of that. So yeah, we are safe at the end. Gaurav Shukla: Yeah. Abhishek: Right. ⁓ I'll give you a real time example if someone is know ⁓ sick can he or she go to Chadjipati and ask what medicine should I use can they really believe them or do they go to a consultation with a doctor? Now I'm telling you nobody does that they'll definitely go to a doctor a human brain is definitely needed Gaurav Shukla: No, please, don't do that. Abhishek: That's the same thing with any of the service they are looking out there in the market. Harsh: Yeah. Exactly. We need validations from people. Yeah. But it's important. Abhishek: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, you were saying something. Yeah. Gaurav Shukla: And I want to put two cents yeah, ⁓ can I go ahead. Abhishek: You were saying something about a vehicle you can go on? Yeah, yeah. Gaurav Shukla: Yeah, can you hear me? Yeah. So I was saying ⁓ you you have mentioned about the situation of asking Chat GPT about the medicine. ⁓ I'll you know relate that from the answer that I have given regarding the website design. If you're having a normal cuff, a normal fever, or something in the beginning stage, do use Chat GPT or something because the basic prescriptions are always the same. So if you're looking for something generic. Abhishek: Yeah. Gaurav Shukla: Do not waste 500 bucks on a doctor and just save that, you know, ⁓ for for some, you know, ⁓ probably a gym membership or something, like ⁓ well, a dumbbell or something, whatever. and ⁓ you can utilize Chat GPT for the beginning sessions. So I guess you know the normal prescriptions, you know, I know a little bit about medicine. ⁓ so I feel like for beginning, yes, you can definitely use it, but ⁓ if I'm call I'm going to call it trustworthy, like to that. Abhishek: Yeah. Mmm. Gaurav Shukla: Next extent, I shouldn't say so. In the beginning, you should definitely leverage that. Abhishek: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll come back to Wittlesback. So we have started it as a marketing agency and we've been running it for the last five years. But last year we have pivoted it to an AI tool where it acts as an intelligence layer to optimize meta and Google Ads. Where you know, it is an agent AI model where it goes fixes the campaigns if there is a geographical issue or a creative intelligence issue since we have mapped it with an MCP of Claude it can also go create creatives for you for your brand and it fixes campaigns for you so ⁓ when I was coming through you know what you guys are doing ⁓ is there something that we can build over as a top layer of what you guys do in terms of AI in order to fix the problems you guys solve. manually. Gaurav Shukla: What's Harsh: Yeah, I'm out of... I can't move right. Gaurav Shukla: Okay, ⁓ there are many things actually. There are so many edge cases, Abhishek. When I look into the problems, there's so many problems that can that can be solved with the help of these AI models. Nowadays, we are ⁓ seeing an influx of these kinds of products like marketing through AI, ⁓ website store building through AI. ⁓ there are two to three edge cases which are right now unsolved. Those are in Shopify, I'm talking about just Shopify. Abhishek: Yeah. Gaurav Shukla: ⁓ you might have seen that ⁓ if you open any if you open lens card for example, if you go to their ⁓ shop, the outlets, they're having some kind of a you know ⁓ system you you can get scanned, you need to just rotate your head like that. And they will be detecting what's your temple size and all, and they will be suggesting your frame and probably putting in ⁓ like well, you can put that up there. But Abhishek: Yeah. Yeah. Gaurav Shukla: Having that functionality in Shopify, a robust application is right now not that much available. That he can suggest as per your face shape, as per your you know, skin tone, what kind of color, like what frame colors it's going to be preferable, what kind of what's the shape of the frame that is going to you know look good. That is one edge case that I really feel it's really, really right now can be solved. I cannot see anything out there in Shopify. In real, I guess there's some good brands who are already using these kind of things. There's an Indian brand Cheshma. ⁓ I guess it's it ⁓ it's having that kind of functionality, but not in Shopify. That's a custom one. So that's one. And I guess there are many other. In every aspect we can hit AI pretty easily. Abhishek: Hmm. Thank you. Right, right, right. So we have created something called as a revenue leak dashboard where once you link your Shopify and Meta and Google Ads ⁓ with us, we give them a dashboard where their revenues are actually leaking and how much they're leaking on the whole. And we also give them the fixes on how they can fix it. there's an agent called back where it goes and fixes itself. It's an agentic AI where you can talk to it and learn more about your brand, create campaigns, create creatives. So all of that. And we have also included this feature called AI visibility to be to help your brand be sighted on, know, chargability, perplexity or Gemini. So this is something which we are working on right now. And it's in beta version, which I know around 50 brands are trailing out us and yeah. And I also wanted you guys to try it out and give me feedback on it. And how was it? How does it feel like you? Gaurav Shukla: Yes, for sure. ⁓ do we have a Shopify application for this? Okay, perfect. So Abhishek, I would love to, you know, give it a try. ⁓ since you know we're having a good ⁓ client base. ⁓ we can give you some strict verdicts, ⁓ not verdicts, feedbacks to be honest. So yeah, so and ⁓ and we can ⁓ collaborate on that. I'd love to you know put in some some of ⁓ my clients into that and ⁓ Abhishek: Yes, yes, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Definitely. Gaurav Shukla: There will be a good inflow of traffic. So be ready to ⁓ to to get to see ⁓ to you know, see that the app is getting crashed. There will be so many people coming. Abhishek: Ha ha ha ha. Handle it. Right, right, right. And to close this off, Gaurav and Harsh, ⁓ what does the future of e-commerce infrastructure is going to look like in the coming decade and where does ProActivo fit in it? Harsh: Thank Gaurav Shukla: Hush, first you know, you can go ahead, then I do have something to say. Harsh: So the future is good and yeah AI is getting stronger but the thing is the things will come but there should be a need of a person who will be the one who will educate the brand owners because when the brand owner comes they know about their brand they know about their product but what they are not very much aware of is how to implement those things and how to scale my business like they will be having a bold eye view but if I go into technicalities they lack And at that point of time, they will be needing an expert that, okay, I want to do meta acts. I know AI can do it, but how we have to use that AI in our meta acts. That's the complete game. And that's where you need an expert. So the need of us, the need of you will be always there. And it's inevitable. And where comes the problem? Abhishek: Yeah. It's action. And I feel our work gets easier with AI. Harsh: Exactly our work will get easier but look what AI cannot do is suppose you are a marketeer here when you create any paid campaign you think a lot of things you know that you know a little since you are human you know how human psychology works if I am creating this particular ad creative I have a thinking in my mind that these kind of things people like Abhishek: Yeah. Right. Harsh: I as a people, I as a human will also like it if I see this creative. So yeah, so the human perspective will always be there. The machine can give you the solution, but to build any business, be it a D2C business, B2B business or it's any product niche, the human angle will always be there. Because at the end of the day, Abhishek: Mmm. Right. That's it. Harsh: the products are going to be purchased by the humans not AI and if we want to sell our products to humans we have to think like that one which only we can do AI cannot so be it a website be it an ad creative be it any strategy we can take help from AI we as an agency owner you as an agency owner and the people the D2C owners as well but At the end of the day our angle, the human angle is also required. What I think is good for my brand. So these are the list of things. I have a vague idea in my mind that I want AI to transform it and optimize it to make it more better. But that vague idea should be erupt from my mind, not AI. And it will always happen. So unless and until the idea is there, the emotions are there. Abhishek: Yeah. Harsh: the experts will be required because we know how to play with the emotions of the people so they can create a kind of a website, a kind of a creative that boosts and build convergence. And that is our end goal. So yeah, that is my team. Abhishek: Makes sense. Makes sense. Is it good? Yeah. Gaurav Shukla: Yes. Abhishek, I guess your question was what as per us is going to be the future of e-commerce, right? Abhishek: e-commerce infrastructure as a whole. Gaurav Shukla: Okay, perfect. Yes, e-commerce infrastructure. So I want to start with some numbers. ⁓ I was reading TechCrunch report a few days back. And ⁓ well, it's a good news for all three of us because we're gonna make good money. So the the e-commerce is going to double or triple by 2030, and it is going to increase on a pace of 14 to 25%. Abhishek: in the APAC markets if I not wrong because I have also read that. Gaurav Shukla: Yes. And the thing is simply you saying, for example, if I'm saying double or triple, right, then it means the number of clients are going to increase. Well, undoubtedly the competition in the service industry is also going to increase, but quality always wins the game. So if you'll keep on doing podcasts like this and keep on bringing some service people out together, I guess when it comes to e-commerce, it is of course going to blow up. The AI will be in the picture. It is inevitable. There is no if and but, there's no questions. And ⁓ and I guess all in all, the whole tech is going to ⁓ elevate to a really revolutionary ⁓ ceiling. I guess we are going to break many ceilings technically because somebody said that we have ⁓ there was there was a government guy, he said the number of business that were registered in the past two to three years that is equal. Abhishek: night. Gaurav Shukla: That is more than that has been registered from the past 10 years. So here you can see people are having a mind shift, or I should say mindset shift. Exactly. They are getting more into they are they want to be founders. They want to be and it's not only about D2C, I guess. ⁓ as a whole, people want to lead. They have they have exactly they have seen this ⁓ potential in themselves. They know nowadays they don't need Harsh: I that. Abhishek: Exactly. and all of them are gen Z's. D2C. Exactly, intent. Gaurav Shukla: Some kind of favor or something, they have got some good platforms out there. They if they are diligent, if they are persistent, they can ⁓ and if they are consistent, they can put themselves out there, whatever skill they have got, they can be they can be really outstanding. So I feel like, yeah, ⁓ I have deviated a little bit from e-commerce, but I feel like all in all, it's all about whole tech. It is going to elevate, it is going to blow up, and we are going to break many thresholds. Abhishek: Thank you. Yeah. And as you were saying, the whole vision of Bitlspot is I bringing B2C founders, agency founders and marketeers all around the ecosystem and nobody else out from this. So whenever you talk to these individuals, it's all about, you know, the hard conversations when you work with a B2C brand. It's as simple as that. So Harsh: Exactly. Abhishek: and this ⁓ I feel the community has a lot of potential to grow and the value we provide as you guys have spent 55 odd minutes providing value in this conversation and people when they look at you guys will definitely approach you because you know what you're doing and you have put it out and I don't think no pitch will be there that you can give to a client of 55 minutes in conversation So yeah, and also I ask you guys to put out lot of things, what you guys do, wherever possible and you know, we have to be available to people that we are there and we are there to help them. Gaurav Shukla: I guess we ⁓ I can make it even here. I'll be a little bit ⁓ contradictory. Abhishek, you what? I have seen this many times. There are some agencies who are not putting themselves out there, but undercover or I should say behind the scenes, they are pulling off great handshakes. They are having some great collaboration. So I feel like it's it's also more about network. I mean you Abhishek: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Gaurav Shukla: If you don't have anybody to begin, definitely just put yourself out there. But if if you have got some serious network, man, if you if you have got a membership of Golf Club, then I guess you already have won some of the lotteries. Abhishek: Exactly. Yeah, for sure. sure. Both ways. Both ways. Yeah, yeah. And thanks for your time guys. It was a very valuable conversation I had. I wish you guys luck and let's ca- I mean I want ⁓ collaboration with you guys and let's talk about this offline. Gaurav Shukla: Yes, yes. True. Harsh: So, so. Gaurav Shukla: For sure. Thank you. For sure. Thanks a lot, I'm Sheikh. Have a good one. Bye bye. Abhishek: for sure see you guys I'll see you guys thanks for your time have a great day bye bye Harsh: Wonderful. Bye, I wish you.