speaker-0: of finally sit down with you. I've been ⁓ looking forward to this for quite a while. So Andrew Whitney of an awesome rifle company. I've actually I actually brought it today. I don't know you're gonna have a rifle sitting there. speaker-1: There we go. speaker-0: ⁓ I'm sure you have a couple sitting around. speaker-1: ⁓ Yeah. speaker-0: So we're gonna talk tenacity. And ⁓ I wanna know everything in your brain, like I said beforehand, about tenacity rifles. Obviously, I kinda wanna get into you know, me shooting my mountain goat with it last year and just like it I kind of describe it, and I've talked to you about it little bit. It's like it's an easy button in a way for me. Like Yeah, you're I mean I wanna speak for you, but you're basically taking all the best components, putting them all together. speaker-1: That's what it's supposed to be for everybody. speaker-0: And giving people at a really good price point. And making it literally I get it. I I love tinkering around with rifles, but I mean you're cutting out some of that tinkering for me so I can get to shooting more, which I think's a huge benefit. speaker-1: Yeah, and you you're not necessarily the customer we're looking for, right? Because you understand it so well and like you could go build that rifle. ⁓ but the idea is to literally make the easy button for guys who want a really high end rifle but don't want to pro ⁓ procure components, don't want to buy action wrenches, vices, all that stuff, right? They want a turnkey rifle package. That's really high end. ⁓ so that's basically what we're doing. speaker-0: Yeah. I wanna know like take me back, like how did ⁓ how did tenacity kind of start and ⁓ what was like the vision around like 'cause there's obviously a lot of rifle companies out there. Yeah like what what kinda sets tenacity firearms apart from everyone else and like just the whole background story of tenacity? speaker-1: Yeah, so basically there's a segment, right, between like your like high end box rifles and full customs. And there's a few players in there, like Seekins, ⁓ you know, maybe Bergara with their barreled actions and stuff, but there's like this middle ground where no like really high-end rifle exists at a price point that's Palatable, if you will, for a consumer, your everyday consumer. so we basically built tenacity to fill that void, right? So that like most people and don't get me wrong, the rifles are still expensive, but they are priced the best you can possibly price a rifle of that caliber. ⁓ so we're just we're trying to make precision rifle accessible ⁓ to people who like otherwise can't spend seven, eight, nine, ten thousand bucks on a rifle like that, which you know ultimately is what that rifle would retail for if you went to like a boutique rifle builder, you know, probably six six to seventy five hundred bucks, something like that, you know. so I always say we're making precision rifle accessible, which is largely what we're doing in terms of lead times as well as in terms of price point. It's like that ⁓ I was just gonna that was the ultimate goal. ⁓ is like how do how do we fill this void? How do we make it work for consumers who, you know, otherwise would be off put by a lead time or a price tag. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. ⁓ go for it. Mm what what are your lead times right now? speaker-1: ⁓ it depends. Like it anything short action right now I can build in probably like five to seven business days. Yep. ⁓ I could build the six five PRCs in probably five to seven business days. The long actions are in very high demand right now. ⁓ you know a lot of people like the seven PRCs. ⁓ the three hundred PRCs sell well. ⁓ so we're probably probably like speaker-0: Shit really. speaker-1: Four to six weeks out on a long action? speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Something like that. That's actually not too bad. Especially ⁓ I mean that to me works out really well because like a lot of these, you know, majority of the Western states, we knew draw draw results, you know, a couple months ago, but there's a lot of really important ones that just happen right now. So like someone could have just recently, hey, I drew a Wyoming deer tag. Yeah. One of the most coveted tags in the West, you know, to burn probably ten, ten plus points on a tag. You really want to go on the hunt and have a great time. And obviously a rifle can help. enhance that ability to kill something on one of these like quote unquote dream tags. And so having that short ⁓ lead time like, yeah, you got results, you know, whatever it was a couple of weeks ago and like, hey, call up tenacity right now and you could have a you know potential rifle on your doorstep in what, like six weeks? Yeah. Yeah. So speaker-1: Like that. ⁓ yeah, I talk to people about that all the time, and it's I've harped on it a little bit. It's like if you draw a tag in the West, you're gonna draw it probably between March and June, right? Generally speaking. And if you want a new rifle, if you want a like a custom level rifle to go on your hunt with, it's not happening. Right? Like most people are out. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah. speaker-1: four to six months minimum, probably more like six to eight months. So by the time you draw that tag, your opportunity to get a new rifle has come and gone. speaker-0: Yeah. I I even look sometimes and like, hey, maybe I should upgrade some of my old rifles and get new stocks. And I look at lead time on a stock. And that's like six, eight months. Yeah. For the most part. And that's just a, you know, standard stock, no real crazy customization. But like so you're not even gonna get that one component and you'll be able to put all those components together for someone. I mean, like you said, could be a couple of weeks, could be, you know, a month and like have that super short lead time. speaker-1: Yeah, and then shoot it, validate it, all that stuff, which is not that big of a lift, right? With a really nice rifle, like you could pretty much do that in a day. But if you're not like intimately familiar with that process and you gotta kinda like bebop your way through it, ⁓ you know, that process can take you a couple weeks. speaker-0: Yeah. No. Yep. I'm pulling I'm not gonna name the company I'm pulling up right now, but I'm pulling up a basically line production rifle company and looking at their prices. ⁓ so yeah, I'm looking at a line production rifle right now. I can you can probably get some of these ones for like three and a half, it looks like to four and a half grand. And that's nothing special. It's just everything kind of slapped together and shot out there when you could like literally spend five hundred to a thousand dollars more per se. And get something that's custom. Like that's that's a big deal to me. Like it's a like when you say the price point, like yeah, it's it's not for everyone because it is a it is a good chunk of money. But when you compare it to some of these other options out there, and sure there's a lot of great rifle companies out there, like I shoot a lot of rifles and ⁓ but when like you can get it for this price and you you're getting I want you to name off all the components. You're getting McMillan stock, you're getting a proof barrel, you're getting it what, trigger tech trigger. Yep. And then like speaker-1: Fine action. speaker-0: Defiance action. Yeah. Like all like like literally if I was gonna tell you right now, hey, like we said earlier, Andrew, I'm gonna go build a rifle, like those are the components I would use anyway. And I think that's what I think that's what screams to me is like the easy button side of it. Because if I was gonna go out and do something, I would literally take every single one of those components, put them together and build it on my own, and it's gonna be way more money trying to do it by myself. And obviously I'm not like a gunsmith and can't go out and you know, I can do it, but like I'm not gonna be the best at it. And having someone to be able to take it take the lead and do it for that same price. Or like right here, I'm looking at like your guys' rifles are cheaper to some of these line production rifles. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, the other thing you get with us ultimately, which most people don't leverage and haven't had to leverage, is a customer service team, right? So, like if you go get all those components yourself and you build it in your garage and something is not working, for the individual consumer to go back to proof or back to defiance or whatever is a little bit of a hurdle. you know, if you buy it from us. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: And you have an issue with the gun, like I'm gonna take care of you. Like you're gonna call this phone and I'm gonna take care of you right away. Right. Like if you need a barrel swap, if you need ⁓ you know, if you have an issue with your action or stock, which is very uncommon, ⁓ it's something I can mitigate for you very quickly. Whereas if you go to the manufacturer, sometimes those things just don't happen really fast, you know? speaker-0: Yeah. Yep. ⁓ I jumped ahead a little bit, but I w I wanted people to know your background a little bit, like kind of how you got going in here. You have you know, you always been a big rifle guy, big bow hunter, like wha what's what's your what's your background and in little history here for people who don't know Andrew Whitney, the man, the myth, the legend? speaker-1: I I largely would have considered myself a bow honor up until like well, I still am, but ⁓ a couple years ago, like I had never killed an elk with a rifle. ⁓ I had killed a couple mule deer with a rifle. I've still never killed an antelope buck with a rifle. ⁓ so yeah, I was I was like very, very gung ho on the archery thing, and still am. I just have less time. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah, how how does that work working for a rifle company and wanting to bow hunt? speaker-1: Well, it kind of just depends on the tags you draw. it's fine. I mean it's like I would I think like somebody is more valuable if they're ⁓ diversified, right? And like understand how bow hunting is nuanced and how rifle hunting is nuanced. It just gives you a a broader, better perspective. So but anyway, I yeah, it largely a bow hunter. I there's a guy I used to shoot league with Who ⁓ I would beat pretty badly all the time. speaker-0: You would beat him? speaker-1: I would beat him badly all the time. And I think at the end of end of league one year he was like, Can you show me how you do what you do with the bow? And I was like, Absolutely, if you show me how you do what you do with a rifle, because he was very well versed on a precision rifle platform. I was really well versed with a bow. So we did like this like information download from each other and like he really fell in love with Archery and just got so much better. He's a speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Very phenomenal shooter these days. ⁓ like I have a tough time beating him. And then I fell in love with precision rifle. ⁓ and that was probably I don't know, five years ago, ⁓ something like that. ⁓ and then I he was into competitive shooting, so I evolved from like teach me how to shoot 500 yards ⁓ to like really understanding Precision rifle as it applies to hunting. And then I got into the competitive scene, which really accelerates the learning process. ⁓ so that was kind of like my catalyst into the rifle space, if you will. ⁓ but I just I'm in love with it. I I think I just am generally in love with launching projectiles. Like I've recently I've recently took up golf, which I think is amazing. Insanely challenging. speaker-0: Dude, that's gonna take up so much of your time. speaker-1: I know. Arrows, bullets, golf balls. Like it's it d all does the same thing for me. speaker-0: I do know quite a few friends that do the same thing. There must be something wired in our DNA that's like we love all those. I always used to compare archery and golf very similarly. Yeah. Like I when I'm watching like 3D tournaments on YouTube and then I wa I don't play golf, but I actually enjoy like watching golf every now and then. And there's there's the similarities are very close in my mind, like the mental game and everything like that that has to work together for it. And so it is interesting that you do s yeah, you pick up golf. So huh. Can manage your time. speaker-1: I d I you know, ⁓ Fred Bear who talks about the art of the flight of the arrow. Yeah. Same thing with a golf ball, like trying to get it to do what you want it to do, it's it's very intriguing. But speaker-0: So on the archery side, I've said it a lot. Like obviously, you know, I made some posts right now and kind of coming out of retirement and I'm gonna pick up. ⁓ I saw that. And try and try to and try to bow hunt. ⁓ but I really think it was very I want to hear your take on it. I think it was very beneficial that I started off first as a bow hunter and now transitioned into a psycho rifle hunter, reloading, setting up rifles, doing all this stuff. I think it benefited me greatly as a hunter. I'm glad I didn't like obviously you could do the opposite. you know, pick up a b a have a rifle first, get really geeky in tune, and then switch over. But because I was so diehard archery, you know, weighing every single component, like literally taking every single target archery tip I could learn and trying to put it in a bow hunting, and then learning how to stalk and move through the mountains with the bow. And now I put a rifle in my hand, I do all those same tuning stuff I used to do with the bow, the crazy reloading obviously techniques and sighting in and practice situations. Like now I feel like when I have a rifle in my hand. I am so lethal. And rifles are already lethal to begin with, but if you have a bow hunting background first, I think it makes you much more lethal when it comes to rifle hunting. Do you feel like the same way? Like you glad you were a big bow hunter before you were a rifle hunter? speaker-1: Yeah, I am, for a couple of reasons from like a ⁓ like a precision foundation standpoint, but also from like a finishing standpoint, if you will. And I'll I'll liken that to like the World Cup right now, right? Like you get you get these strikers, ⁓ who are just so composed in front of the net, right? And like they don't try to strike it hard, they just put the ball where it needs to go, right? Great composure, great skill set, great finisher. And I think that's what archery does for you because it's ⁓ archery, you're like you know, you're like in the heat of it, right? Like you you don't have a lot of time to make decisions, right? Like you have to maintain your composure. You have to finish, right? Like air bows are not nearly as forgiving as rifles with poorly placed shots. So like you have to be composed and put a good arrow downrange. ⁓ obviously with rifles, you have You know, you're at a greater distance, you have more time, there's less that can go wrong. ⁓ so I think from that standpoint, like when I get behind a rifle, like getting ready to shoot an animal, I'm like, ha ha ha. Easy button, this is over. ⁓ from like a fundamental standpoint, if you can learn to shoot a bow and you can learn to manage or mitigate target panic, doing it with a rifle speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Becomes really easy. And pressing a rifle trigger well becomes really easy. ⁓ you know, most of the time your rifle is braced by a bipod, by some sort of rest. With the bow, it's not the case. There's always wobble in your sight picture with the bow. So when you go to a rifle and that wobble goes away and all you have to do is press the trigger, it just becomes so easy. speaker-0: Yep. Yep. I I I fully believe everything you just said right there. Cause like yeah, I mean the having the foundation, having all the you know if you know how to shoot a bow really well, you can shoot a rifle, I think, really well. Yeah. Just yeah, I think it seems natural. speaker-1: I think it's way easier to take a bow hunter, give him a precision rifle and be like, hey, you know how you you squeeze the trigger on your release with your bow? Do the same thing. Mm. And then their sight picture is so perfect compared to what they are used to, it's very easy. You take a take a rifle guy, give him a bow, I think that's a much harder transition. Not to say it can't be done, it's just a bigger learning. speaker-0: Yep. Yep. Hmm. speaker-1: Well, what brought you out of ⁓ retirement? I feel like you come out of retirement like once a year, once every two years with your bow. speaker-0: Yeah, I usually I usually c they always try to force me to come out of retirement around our like a little annual archery tournament thing we always call like marchery madness. Yeah. And so they were joking that I was coming out of retirement earlier this year. And I was like, I was on the fence about like am I actually gonna hunt. But I do have some states that have a lot of points, and Trail keeps saying I need to burn my points and go elk hunting. And I've never killed like you've you said you've never killed a elk with your rifle. I've now, but ⁓ have now, yeah. I've never killed a elk with my bow. So I think that's one of those classic things that eventually I just need to scratch off, you know, like go and do it and be successful at it. ⁓ but I think like just seeing the technology and the tools that are available today and like how for how advanced ⁓ these platforms have become, it's like when I pick up this bow the other day, the first thing I kept telling Trail, it's like, this bow holds so well. It holds way better than I ever remember. And like it's it's almost it's more fun to shoot shoot it nowadays. Kind of just the same thing with somebody's rifle platforms is like Yeah, I could get a rifle ten years ago to shoot really well, but like now it's it's fun. It's like it's way more enjoyable 'cause I don't have to work at it as much. I can still work as hard as I want on the reloading side, but like Yeah, it's easier. And then I'm just like, dude, I should just get I need to get this monkey off my back. Like this is like this little thought in my head, like you'll never be a bow hunter ever again because I, you know, had a bad experience back in the day. And it's like the whole retirement for good thing, like I always thought it was probably gonna be a thing, but I was like, dude, I just need to kinda get the, you know, the bad juju off and actually kill some of my bow again. And ⁓ so I don't I kind of have a a hunt planned out. It's possibly gonna be a mule deer hunt. ⁓ could do something there, but I might try to plan something else that might be a little crazier to take my bow. Maybe one of these ⁓ little giant antlered critters above my desk here, which I might go try to tango with. So I think that might be a good starting point 'cause Big target. Big tar big target, yeah. Yeah, so I'm I'm exc I'm excited. speaker-1: Target. Yeah. Archery Elk is ⁓ was like my dream. That's what like it was my catalyst into the West and and ⁓ Western hunting is all I could think about. Even before I ever did it was Archery Elk. Like if I if I couldn't pick one hunt to go on the rest of my life, it would be Archery Elk. I I think it's the creme de la creme and I know you're a mule deer guy. speaker-0: You're you're breaking my heart right now. speaker-1: By and large, and and I love a good high country mule deer hunt, but like if I had to pick one thing to do, the archery elk. Yeah. I just think the interactions are so cool. and just like It it it just like is h that's hunting to me, right? Like speaker-0: Yeah, so as you're as you're saying that, I'm thinking back the the actual last time. So I did re I did like kind of officially retire twenty fifteen, but I did go on an elk hunt with Trail and the Born and Raised guys. I think it was like 2017 or 2018. And ⁓ that that experience right there, like definitely goes along with what you're saying. Like there was one point where we called a bull in and it was just screaming its brains out the whole entire time. And like you could hear the bull walking around. And like I kept thinking in my head, like any moment now it's gonna transpire. But I I remember looking down at my bino harness and my chest was like my heart was just beating so bad. And I think I I think I turned to the cameraman and said, like the elk ended up not coming into the open and kind of like skirted us and went away. But I was like, if that bull came out, there was no way I could have shot that thing. Like my bot my body was so amped up and just the adrenaline rush and my he I like literally my bino harness was bouncing because my heart rate was just sky high through the roof. And that's like that is a I get that's why, you know, people love elk hunting. It's for those moments. right there. We're like on a mule deer hunt, it's always like you and yourself just suffering the whole entire hunt. It's always a struggle. It's never really fun at all until you kill it, then it's pretty fun. But in Elkhunt it's like fun every single day of the hunt. Even at night hearing bugles chasing around. Like I get that's why people love ⁓ Yeah. speaker-1: It it's just a little more interactive, you know? and the vocalizations are really cool. The high country mule deer thing with the bow has its place. It is very cool. It just ⁓ a little bit more of like a type two hunt, right? Like long days behind the glass, looking for a specific deer, and then like the strategy, right? Like deer's in his first bed. Do I go now? Do I wait for him to get in his second bed? So I like both. They're different. I just think if I was gonna hang my hat on one style of hunting, it would be Archery L. speaker-0: Hartry elk. Yeah, can't do that with a rifle too often. Chase him in the rut. Would would you ever would you ever if you had a primo tag, it does it feel like you're cheat you're cheating your like self in a way? Like if you hunt a bull during the rut with a rifle, if you draw like some epic tag, do you feel like it cheats cheats the process a little bit or you still enjoy every single second of it? speaker-1: No. Real. I've I drew a New Mexico tag two years ago now. It was October 1st through the 5th, and those bulls were rutting their faces off. ⁓ and I was I was like tickled pink that I had a rifle in my hands, and I was like, I'm gonna get to kill the bull I wanna kill. Not the bull that like plays the game, but like speaker-0: Yeah, you can be picky a little bit and chase bugles and then actually see it and then go after it and decide to pass because you know potentially you're gonna get another shot later if you pass a ball. speaker-1: Yeah. And yeah, it was great. I killed that bull. I killed the bull. I was trying to kill found him while we scouted. Day one he got all boogered up by some outfitter riding horses around. Don't ask me why they're riding horses. It's like the easiest hiking you could imagine. Mm-hmm. ⁓ but we found him day two and ended up killing him at like six hundred yards. ⁓ little more than six hundred yards. And I was like, Yes. Yes. Like, that's great. That was the first bull I ever killed with a rifle. So But it was it was awesome. And and no, it's I don't feel like I cheated the process. I felt like I was gifted an opportunity. speaker-0: Hmm. Gift enough to realize I like that. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ let's g less so when it comes to your guys' rifles, you have two models. Can you ex can you explain to me the differences of two models and when one might choose the other? Or is it just kind of a component thing and price thing? Or like what's what's really the difference between the tenacity and the tenacity X? speaker-1: Two models. Yeah, good question. ultimately from like a precision standpoint, they're the same. You're gonna get the same thing out of both rifles. And I think like you have a tenacity. Right, and I think your gun hammers. speaker-0: Hammers, absolutely hammers, yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, so it's it's not a precision thing. ⁓ it has nothing to do with performance. It's largely a feature set thing and a price point thing. so the Tenacity has a Defiance Renegade in a McMillan Game Warden two point the the big difference in the action is that the bases are pinned and screwed, not machined into the action like they are speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Tenacity X, which has an anti X. ⁓ you know, it's only in the last like what four to six years, something like that, that people have really started to machine bases into the action. So like pinned and screwed was the status quo for a long time. Right? So it's it's not a downfall, it's just the action on the Tenacity X, the anti X. You're basically getting an insurance policy. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep, forever. Right. Yeah, you're kind of like removing a little bit of potential tolerances per se. speaker-1: Well, yeah, it's just like when parts interface and get screwed together, there's margin for error, right? They come loose. They cannot go together very well, which is not really a thing with machine level ⁓ of you know, machining of this quality. But the screws could in theory come loose or something, you know. So basically what you're getting by upgrading to a tenacity X in terms of the action is an insurance policy that your bases are never gonna move. ⁓ The stock is a little bit different, a little bit different lines on the Game Board and two point ⁓ It does come standard with a pick rail. ⁓ but as you know, that pick rail is like kind of mounted onto the stock. It's not flush bit or anything. It's you know, it's drilled in there and set in there with ⁓ Yeah, yeah. the Tenacity X has an anti-X action, which I just referenced, right? So the reason it's a little bit more expensive from the action stand or from an action standpoint is because you have to start with a much bigger piece of bar stock and it takes quite a bit more machine time to cut that ⁓ to cut the bases in there. So that's part of the difference. the Tenacity X also comes with ⁓ the McMillan Mountain Tracker, which is a phenomenal stock. The ergonomics of the two stocks are very similar. This one's just a little bit different. ⁓ the mold's a little bit different, I should say. So the it comes standard with an arca rail, but it's molded so that that arca rail sits kind of like flush or recessed. And then same thing with the pick rail up front ⁓ on the fore end of the stock. It's molded so that pick rail is like recessed. It's just like it's speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Aesthetically it's very nice. ⁓ I do like it, like the in hand feel of it. You know, you don't like have a stock with an arca rail in your hand when you're walking around. speaker-0: Yeah, then you have like a lot of rough edges a lot of times if you have a full length arca. speaker-1: Yep, this this particular arca is it's fairly short, it's like two inches, maybe two and a half inches, something like that. ⁓ but very low profile, fits on the stock very nicely. It's basically not there unless you need it to be, right? speaker-0: Yeah, and great for putting it on a tripod right there. Continuing a tripod. speaker-1: Yep, it's just in front of the magwell, so like basically right at the balance point. the tenacity X, ⁓ to kind of sum it up, is just a little bit more full feature, if you will. ⁓ we also wanted to hit, you know, two different price points. You know, they're ⁓ the tenacity is forty two ninety five, the tenacity X is forty nine ninety five. speaker-0: So Mm-hmm. speaker-1: It's seven hundred bucks. You know, if someone wants to get into a rifle of this level and it's a real stretch for ⁓ the Tenacity is a great option. If you want kind of all the bells and whistles, you know, and you can afford the extra seven hundred dollars, like jump to the Tenacity X. Like it's i everything you could desire on a rifle, in my opinion, is on the Tenacity X. speaker-0: Yeah, and on and on my ⁓ the regular tenacity, normally on old rifles I would bed the normally I had a full length Picatinny rail. I would bed those rails on top of the action. And I wanted to try it out on this one without doing that. And I proved myself I didn't need to do it because like the machine tolerances of those are so well put together. Yep. I just always did it for just like because I like tinkering. I like playing around and like maybe, you know, I'm I'm gonna, you know, I don't use release agent and just literally adhered on there for good and try to like, you know, again, like I said before, like kind of reduce some of those stack tolerances. But I proved to myself I didn't need to do it. And like we said earlier, this rifle absolutely hammers. Like straight out of when I picked it up, put any sort of rounds down it. I haven't even hand loaded for it yet. I just actually ordered dyes a couple of weeks ago to finally start reloading for it. But like it puts groups down stupidly accurate all the time. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: Yeah. And that and like yeah, that's exactly what I would speaker-1: Back. Like that's not an anomaly. You know, if it didn't do that, it would be the anomaly. Like Yeah, that's that's what every one of our rifles should do. If for some reason it doesn't, something is awry, like we'll take care of it. Like and not every barrel is created equal, you know, like all the magic happens in a barrel. speaker-0: Yeah. W wh wh what should you think of all the components is probably one of the most important components on a rifle? When you talk about barrel? Yeah. Hands down. Okay. Yeah. What what what's your reason what's your reasoning behind that? Or thought process? speaker-1: Hands out. All the magic happens in a barrel. Like a a the barrel dictates how well a rifle shoots. ⁓ like it's important that the action is square and the barrel interfaces with the action well. But like and and that's gonna happen every time with a defiance and a proof or a Hell's Canyon Armory barrel. But like some barrels are just magical. You know? ⁓ but like yeah, ⁓ It's hard to quantify. you know, like largely an action takes takes a bullet out of the mag and puts it in the barrel where all the magic happens. So you know, i I wanna have a great action that's buttery smooth and feeds reliably. Like, yes, those things are are important, but in terms of like downright precision, the barrel is the most important part of the equation. speaker-0: And you said you do have two barrel options, right? Is it is the other barrel option only available on the Tenacity X or can you swap them if you wanted to? speaker-1: Nope, we use ⁓ proof research barrels and Hell'Canyon Armory barrels. And we use them interchangeably on both. Every Defiance action has guaranteed headspace. Not just the ruckus, which is like a common misconception. ⁓ so yeah, we use two barrel manufacturers largely for procurement reasons, but Hell's Canyon makes an absolutely phenomenal barrel, and so does Proof. ⁓ so speaker-0: Yep. speaker-1: You know, someone wants one or the other and has strong feelings about it, then I'll I'll get ⁓ their proof or get ⁓ their Hell's Canyon or whatever. But ⁓ we are confident that both of those barrels interchangeably are gonna give the performance that, you know, we want from our product. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. And I I'm kind of new on the whole ⁓ carbon fiber barrel trend. Walk me through maybe a little bit on some of the pros, maybe like why w why why would someone want a carbon fiber barrel? speaker-1: Yeah, I think it's largely a sta speaker-0: Yeah, it looks I mean, this is not a very great video quality, but like it looks so good on a rifle. It does. Yeah. speaker-1: you can't objectively say that a carbon fiber barrel shoots better than a steel barrel. That is that is completely false. What you're getting is ⁓ basically like more of a bull barrel without the weight penalty, right? Because they machine most of the metal out and re-wrap it with carbon. ⁓ so it's really super stiff, which is important for precision. ⁓ speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: You know, so you get that like bull barrel look and feel ⁓ without the weight penalty. But like, you know, people go back and forth, ⁓ and and I don't know with absolute certainty, but some people are like carbon dissipates heat better. And then some people are like, Carbon's an insulator, it doesn't dissipate heat better. I don't really know what the truth is. speaker-0: Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, it's always in between the lines there. And it's like for ⁓ for me, like my my f like obviously my dad is kind of who I learn everything about precision rifle shooting. He's just psycho when it comes to reloading, you know, reloads for prairie dogs, reloads for everything else. And he's actually picked up a few carbon fiber barrels kind of when the first carbon fiber barrel trend happened. I don't know when it was. It was like I think he had his first one maybe ten year ten plus years ago or something like that. Mm-hmm. And I've just watched him just hammer, hammer, hammer with it. And obviously he has steel barrels too and they work really well. But if he's for him it was just like if a rifle looks good, I'm gonna shoot it better. You know, one of those like things like you look good look good, shoot good and he's like, I love the way it looks, I love the way it functions. Yeah, it's shaving off a tiny bit of weight. For so for him it was like negligible on the weight side. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. Yep. And so like he just picked one up and I've looked at it for a long time and it's like objectively, yeah, they look great. Mm-hmm. And I every time I look at this rifle in my safe, I'm just like, Yeah, it's a sexy looking rifle. speaker-1: It's a race car. If you want to pull it out and use it. Yeah. speaker-0: It's a tuned up Ferrari, like in and actually performs and like it's you can just beat the crap out of it and it's still gonna shoot well time and time again. Yeah. speaker-1: Well, ⁓ one thing worth noting is that not all carbon fiber barrels are created equal, right? There's like there's multiple designs. Like some of them have a carbon fiber sleeve, which is like tensioned on the barrel, and like between the carbon fiber and the metal, there's space. Right. So it's like it's that's really about aesthetics. ⁓ you know, proof and Hells Canyon have proprietary wrapping processes, ⁓ which are way over my head. I don't pretend to know anything about them. epoxies, this and that, but ⁓ you know, this this style of carbon fiber barrel I think really is the right way to go. If you will like this the sleeve is like purely aesthetics. These are like functionality, how you wrap ⁓ can you cut them back? ⁓ so there's you know the point is not all carbon fiber barrels are created equal and like you have to You have to think about and do the research before you decide which one you're going with and what you want out of it. Like if you purely want the aesthetic you can probably find a carbon fiber barrel that's not quite as expensive as a proof for Hell's Canyon. speaker-0: But I'd rather I'd rather go with a you know a a trusted manufacturer and I just hear great things about proof all the time and then like yeah me shooting me shooting it it really like hit it home for me because obviously I'm new to it and I've read all those things about carbon fiber barrels like you're saying like ⁓ yeah it's an insulator and and all this other stuff and it keeps it hot and I'm like it shoots though yeah like at the end of the day all I care about is where that bullet goes on paper and where it goes on an animal That's all I care about. And if it can repeat every single time, that's it. speaker-1: Is that your first proof barrel? speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: I've had I don't know. I probably have had like five or six or seven carbon barrels from proof. And then I have a a comp contour barrel from proof that all of them absolutely hammer. Like you could literally stuff rocks in them and it would shoot it well. ⁓ and same thing for Hell's Canyon. I've got a I've got a six five PRC with a Hell's Canyon on it that is absolutely unbelievable. ⁓ thoughtless too, right? Screw it on, no barrel break in, none of the one shot clean, one shot clean, none of that. Like literally go to the range, shoot it, dope it. The only thing you can get is like maybe a little bit of speed up, you know, over the course of 75 or 100 rounds, which you just need to pay attention to. But ⁓ they're just they're so well built, there's like there's really no break in process. speaker-0: Yep. Do you do you believe in a barrel breaking process? Because I know you guys do send a little card. I actually still have it on my desk from way back in the day. speaker-1: Yeah, because some people want to do it and the consumer has been trained to believe that it's necessary, but Proof makes such a good barrel and so does Hells Canyon that like they're match great barrels. When they come out of the box, like they are ready to go. And and I also like barrel break in, like w what are you what are you accomplishing? Are you smoothing out the bore? speaker-0: I think speaker-1: Because copper is much softer than the bore. So like the bullet is not gonna smooth out the bore. I think what what you're really doing is you're like fouling your barrel, right? So like any like microscopic grooves or whatever are filling with carbon. And I think that's largely where you get that speed up from. It's not the the bore getting smoother, it's actually getting tighter from like carbon deposits and copper deposits. Right, and then and then it kinda hits equilibrium when you get to whatever, fifty to a hundred rounds. But ultimately no, I don't be I don't believe in barrel breaking. I literally take my barrels and I'll go to the range and put a hundred rounds through ⁓ on day one without a clean. speaker-0: Must be nice to live in a cool state where you can do that without it being a hundred and ten degrees like in Vegas. speaker-1: Well, in the summer it's tough to do here for sure. but in the winter it's pretty easy. You know, you set your gun aside for like five minutes and the barrel's ice cold again. speaker-0: Well ⁓ walk walk me through ⁓ so obviously have a bunch of calibers and you have a bunch of different barrel lengths. What are you mentioned earlier a lot of people are doing you know, seven PRC, six, five PRC, like what's your probably most sold option out there in terms of caliber and then ⁓ like barrel length? Or or just barrel length guys. Some like like me, I've never had a lightweight gun. So when I built this one, you know, I wanted a twenty two inch barrel because all mine are twenty six and so I was like, I want to build a lightweight mountain gun, even though like I always talk about love a heavy rifle. Like I just wanted to try it. That way I have an opinion on it. So like what do most people kind of like steer towards with this option? And why would someone maybe want a twenty inch barrel, twenty two, twenty-four, and those offerings that you have? speaker-1: Yeah, it's largely a mindset thing. ⁓ first and foremost, our most popular caliber right now is the seven PRC. Hands down. ⁓ the barrel length thing is like some guys are of the mindset that they wanna ⁓ they wanna be able to make as much speed as possible, right? So you need long barrel to do that. ⁓ but the trend has been going to suppressors. Like everybody's going to suppressors, especially with how easy they are to get now. speaker-0: Even I have slowly made the switch over and I've been an anti suppressor for hunting for a long ass time. speaker-1: Listen up, everybody. You heard it here for speaker-0: If I can make the switch and like I've done my research, it's a it's a reason why I've made it because suppressor technology has gotten so crazy lately. And before I never had any sort of benefit to really do it and it w the wait time sucked. And every time I would think about it, like, ⁓ I could have got a suppressor by now 'cause it takes me a year to get it back in the day. And like I just got one the other week and it took eight days. Yeah. So like speaker-1: Makes it palatable. When it was a year, it seemed like an investment. You're like, ⁓ I'm gonna be out whatever, fourteen hundred bucks for a year. I'm not gonna have this product. And then I gotta go do the paperwork and pay the tax stamp, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was a pain in the butt. I remember my first one was a pain in the butt. And then it just got easier and easier and easier, and now I've got a few of them. ⁓ but anyway, back to barrel length. Like like I was saying, it's a mindset thing. If you wanna make the most speed Go twenty-two, twenty-four. ⁓ if you want ⁓ to be as compact as possible, because you're gonna put a suppressor on, you know, twenty, twenty-two, it kind of depends. A lot of the factory ammo is not hitting advertised seven PRC speeds right now. So I definitely have some dialogue with with our customers about you know what they want to get out of the gun. Are they gonna reload? Are they not gonna reload? Because I I'm just trying to like manage speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: their expectations so that when they get the gun and in you know ammo XYZ brand is running at 2750, they're not up in arms about it. so yeah it it just depends what you want to get out of it. I have every barrel I own is a 22 inch barrel. I think it's a really healthy balance of barrel length, packability speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And the ability to make speed. Like I'd I run my seven PRC at like three thousand, three thousand and ten feet a second with a one seventy-five per elite. ⁓ yeah, I mean it's cranking. What what can't that gun do? So even if you even if I went down to a twenty with that, in theory I would lose like forty feet a second, I'd be at like speaker-0: That's great. Yeah. speaker-1: twenty nine fifty, twenty nine sixty, something like that, which still is you know, you have plenty of horsepower with that gun to shoot out to six, seven, eight hundred yards with effective kill power. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. So ⁓ what so what happens like for ⁓ my rifle, for example, and anyone else's rifle? So I select, you know, right hand, left hand, I select the caliber, I select the barrel length, I purchase it. What happens after that point? How how does this rifle kind of get as get assembled and ⁓ do you guys go out and shoot it, that sort of thing? Like what what happens after that process gets gets through? speaker-1: Yeah, so we take the order in and then basically what we're gonna do is we're gonna get an action and a barrel and we'll marry them up and we'll get it over to Sarakote. so these these barrels we have are the the shank is stainless steel, right? So like to make it kind of a completed package and yeah speaker-0: It looks it looks good when it's all Sara Coda black. speaker-1: Yep. Yeah, so it'll go off a seracoat and then come back. ⁓ we will bed glass bed the barreled action into the stock, which is super important. speaker-0: Love that. Saves me it saves me a giant step not having to do that myself. speaker-1: Yep. ⁓ and we have McMillan ⁓ because we have such a standardized build, they machine these very tight when when they see and see the opening for the barreled action. Instead of having like a general Remington seven hundred clone opening, which works, but you it takes quite a bit of bedding compound to fill it. ⁓ ours are cut very, very tight. So basically we we have to like skim the lug, skim the bedding areas, the tang, ⁓ and then ⁓ run with it. But it it just like the fit is so good. It basically takes like I don't even know if you really need because of how tight they cut ⁓ I don't know if you like really need to bet ⁓ but it's just the betting is an insurance policy. ⁓ and it's an expectation I think people expect see it or you know from a rifle this caliber. So ⁓ But yeah, it's a pretty simple assembly. If we have everything in stock, basically like we're gonna get the order, build it, it's gonna go to Sarakote, it's gonna come back, we're gonna bet it. And then we do test fire them. Not every single rifle these days, but ⁓ you know, fifty, sixty percent of them will take them out and shoot just to make sure our process is holding up. ⁓ and then the rifle goes out the door. to your F F L. So I guess that would be another step in the process is I'm gonna reach out to you directly, get an F F L from you that we can ship the rifle to. speaker-0: And it should be noted too you guys don't do any scope mounting. We do. You do? speaker-1: It yeah, we don't advertise it, but yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ I could have s had you do it for me. Just kidding. I like to do it myself. I'm the I'm that guy. speaker-1: Of all people, I figured you would do it yourself. Yeah. ⁓ but yeah, if if you buy a scope from us and you want us to put it together, we will speaker-0: Yeah. That's right. I was on your website ⁓ a couple weeks ago before this podcast and I do saw you actually have a lot of accessories you can buy on the website now. speaker-1: Yep. ⁓ the other cool thing about our builds is we tried to make them as modular as possible because we know that rifles in general, but also rifles at this price point are not one size fits all. ⁓ so the stocks are inlet with an M5 inlet, so it's a very simple change. You know, we use a BDL bottom metal. It's a very simple change to go to a Hawkins DBM or AICS pattern mags. ⁓ you know, if you wanted to buy this rifle for your NRL pursuit, you can do it yourself. You can procure AICS bottom metal and do it yourself. Or if you want us to do it, we'll change it out as well. No big deal. ⁓ sometimes if you do those things, it pushes the lead time down the road a little bit because I have to go procure extra components that we don't typically have on hand. But yeah. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: I mean we're happy to do those little things to make, you know, your rifle feel like yours or make it more turnkey for your application when you get it. speaker-0: Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty pretty quick, pretty pretty painless. And it comes to you and it's just off to the races. Like I wanna I wanna jump back on last year. So last year obviously we were talking a lot and ended up getting my hands on the bad boy that was sitting right here in six five PRC and you know, basically was setting it up for a mountain goat hunt. You went up with Dale and we were hunting mountain goats. And like I was look I was scrolling back through some of our text string. And like I think I s texted you some thoughts, like right right when I got shooting it the first time, I think I sent you like this thing shoots lights out. Yeah. Like I literally ha was like it's impressive to me if I can just take a rifle and go to the range with just the r normally, like I always break in my barrel. I'm just that old school person. So I go through those steps mainly because I just don't like heating things up and just like slowly get accustomed to it or whatever. But even when I when I do that, I take, you know. Typically like just shitty ammo, just I'm not gonna really hunt with, just to like get some reps down the barrel, whatever. Yeah. But the crazy thing was is that ammo that I would call not high quality that I would hunt with shot phenomenal right out right out of the bat. And then switching over to my hunting rounds, continued to shoot phenomenal. You know, things just kept getting, you know, get ⁓ got more accustomed to it, got a f I got a feel for everything. And then like, you know, to take a rifle on a hunt like that, like pretty much a once in a lifetime hunt, like You want to trust everything with that rifle. And so I put I can't remember how many rounds I put down at, like maybe 350 rounds before I went went hunting. Like a lot. Like for me, that's a that's a good amount. yeah, especially when I live where I live. It's always hot. So I had to be very careful how many rounds I put down it. But I was practicing, you know, throughout the whole summer leading up to that hunt. And then going on a hunt like that when like, you know, I have to make a perfect shot. speaker-1: Good enough for a lot of people. speaker-0: And cause these mountain goats, you know, live in the nastiest country possible. And you know, being up there with Dale, we had a situation I you know I've talked about before, but basically we had two goats bedded down. We didn't there was two goats at first. There was one ⁓ that I ended up shooting. We couldn't tell how big he was because he was looking away from us. ⁓ and then all of a sudden Dale, you know, leaned over the edge of there's a b another goat down below that looked bigger and it was bigger. And so Dale's like, I'm gonna shoot that one. And so after, you know, dealing with the camera guy because he, you know, tore up his knee or whatever, just being able to Watch Dale. Obviously, Dale's shot was really close. It was like 120 yards, maybe. But anchor that goat, and then my goat gets up, and both me and my guide Austin turned each other, like, that's a cranker. Cause I was like, if that goat's not big, I'm not going to shoot it. Like this is the first day of the hunt. But then, you know, that goat gets up, we're like, that's a shooter as well. It's the exact same size as Dale's. And like having this goat run down through it, looks like it's a big flat open meadow, but it's nasty straight down steep cliff. Like we're shooting off a I don't know what it was, a 250 foot vertical cliff onto this, what looks like a bench, but that bench was actually pretty steep in green grass. And knowing that I'm about to take a shot of my life on a mountain goat, and I need to make a great shot. I have to anchor this goat. ⁓ because there's cliffs on the other side of that, like right where the goat was going. The goat's obviously going to cliffs. He's go he's like, you know, heard the commotion of knocking that one goat down. Yeah, they're gonna they're gonna go. speaker-1: That's what they do. speaker-0: Where do they go? They the nasty stuff. That's where they escape everything. So I'm like, I this is like coming down to the wire of a giant goat. We have weather coming in, and I have to make the one best shot of my life and anchor a goat. And I think it was like four hundred and thirty yards or something like that. The goat was like running for a while. Finally it's their whistle stopped. And like right where the goat stopped, no joke, like fifty yards behind there, twenty-five yards is a absolute straight cliff going down. And just like having the confidence. Of shooting that rifle at the range all summer, getting it absolutely dialed, going up to one of the, you know, most unforgiving places in the world where you slip and fall and you hope your rifle still can hold zero and all that stuff, and having that confidence that it's gonna f funk function exactly perfectly. And I I wanna make a good shot, anchor this goat, and then made the perfect shot. Goat literally falls right down and tumbles back and forth and starts rolling. Like that to me. Like, yeah, a lot of things had to go right for that. But it was like the confidence I had in the weapon and knew I could make that perfect shot when the time was. Obviously it's amped up. We just killed a goat. My goat's kind of slipping away. They're like, ⁓ you can shoot, like, shoot now, shoot now. And I'm like, No, I'm gonna wait till it's perfect position, everything. And then had to make that, you know, one shot kill count, and then it worked just flawlessly. And to end, like it just speaks to every piece of that component of that rifle from the action to the stock to the barrel to the trigger, like. Everything set up on that thing, like I had like no doubts in my mind that I was gonna make a great shot and I have I shoot a lot, but just like on a lifetime like that, you don't wanna leave anything to chance. And that's why was like, you know, phenomenal to have this platform sitting right next to me make the most epic shot ever on an animal that is like so coveted to me, a mountain goat. Like how many times in your life do you get to go mountain goating? Once, you know? Yeah. And like to have Yeah. speaker-1: Twice if you're lucky. Once if you're lucky. speaker-0: And to have it happen like that and like, you know, like I just love being able to trust my rifle because at the of the day, you know, on a hunt, yeah, you can have the best optics, you can have the best clothing, you can have a lot of stuff. But like the one thing that leads you to punching a tag or not is your rifle. Yeah. And having the confidence in between your ears to understand you can make that shot. And it's like, again, it's that easy that easy button. It literally was. I knew without a doubt that that goat was dead whenever he stopped. Because I know how the rifle shoots, I know the dope. conditions are extreme and that's what I love and putting a rifle in extreme places and have it perform like that, like is a no brainer. Like that rifle performed perfectly. speaker-1: That like that pretty well sums up what we're trying to do. Like we're trying to make precision rifle accessible, but what we're really trying to do is give hunters the confidence that they can that they can make the shots they need to make and be successful. I would argue that above and beyond everything you carry in the mountains, if you go without confidence, you probably will not be successful. In one form or the other. If you go with confidence in your backpack, in your clothing system, in your rifle, like and you can leave those things behind, like all the doubts, leave them behind, go hunt hard and be extremely confident in the moment of truth. Like, there's not anything quite like it. You know? If you get behind your rifle and you're like, Man, I hope this goes well. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Probably not gonna go that way. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. And a really fun thing too to I obviously jumped way ahead, but once that morning we set off to go hike up the mountain, because obviously we're camping down on a river and hiking, you know, wherever the vertical feet was, giant, giant mountain climbing up there. ⁓ we were like, shit, we never actually got a shoot around. Like when we were hanging out in town, 'cause we were like wait we burned like five days waiting on a weather window to fly into the mountains. And I was like, we should probably verify this rifle before we climb up. You know, traveling all that way, beat around an airplane and Whatever. And setting a target out that a hundred yards and like I put the bullet exactly where the crosshairs was, I'm like, Good. Good to go. Like that's also just huge. And it's like it's a well built system. Yeah. Like there's n nothing I had to worry about of flying, or if I had this in the back of an A T V for a whole entire week, and you know, then day seven you have that one opportunity finally arise. I know it's gonna still shoot. Mm-hmm. Falls confidence builder. I'm stacking confidence on top of each other throughout the whole system, throughout the whole summer, and it's gonna function on a once in a lifetime hunt. Or just a you're going out for a mule deer hunt that you do with your family every single year, it'd still be the rifle I grab. Like it's gonna it's gonna work no matter what hunt you're going on. speaker-1: The they're a buy once, cry once purchase. You know, it's a rifle you're gonna have for a very long time. If you shoot a lot, you can rebarrel it very easily. but yeah, that's ⁓ that's what I'm trying to give to the consumer. I've been fortunate that in my tenure in the hunting industry, I I worked for Stone Glacier for a long time, right? And I I truly believed in our product. and I can say the same thing about tenacity like we make a great product. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: We really do. ⁓ and it's yeah, it it just it's built to, you know, improve your hunting experience. speaker-0: Mm. And and then one of the coolest things too is like coming back from a hunt like that and, you know, talking to everyone in the office here, like everyone, you know, obviously wants to hear about a mountain goat hunt. And, you know, showing them video, showing pictures, showing everything. But then I always kept coming back to the rifle, like, Brady, how'd you like that rifle? Like, how'd that rifle shoot? And it's like all those conversations just start, you know, building and building. And I'm like, This rifle works. Like you're saying, I want to take it now in more hunts. Like I've this is also the first time I've not shot a thirty cal. I mean I've shot a a few non thirty cal rifles in my day, but like it's exciting to shoot something new and have it perform as well and have it kill something and I still love a thirty cal, but it's kind of nice to go out of my comfort zone a little bit and shoot some other calibers just to try them out because they still work at the end of the day, as long as you put the bullet in right spot and have a quality bullet and a quality rifle, you're gonna kill the animal. Yep. But like it's fun also to shoot something different and try it out. And so everyone kept asking, like, how'd the rifle shoot? I'm like, Exactly at beginning, it hammers. It literally hammers, hammers, hammers. And then, you know, it slowly led up to, you know, us talking about, you know, w we should do something more with tenacity, like at Go Hunt, like a deeper level. And I'm like, if we were gonna do something with a rifle company, I'd want it to be tenacity. Because I believe in you guys, obviously I'm friends, I'm trying to take all that bias out of like I've known you forever. But like having it performed there and coming back here to tell the guys that here at the office, which You know, we have a lot of other psycho rifle guys like they like performance and like high quality stuff. I'm like, this would be a rifle that I would be proud to have go hunt, you know, work on a deeper level with. And it's really awesome that, you know, we've expanded on that and you know, a bunch of us are gonna be shooting tenacity rifles this year. All because of it worked. And I went out in the field, proved it, and it's like this is a rifle that I think more people need to have their hands on. Like something that I'd be proud to say. Do you have a hunt you're going on? Go here. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean th the system's tried and true. You know, I've got a handful of tenacities, I've never had one fail, I've never had one not shoot, let me down, I've never lost zero. ⁓ which is why I I'm so confident in what we're doing because the product is so good, you know. And I think having guys like you who are very nitpicky about what they're shooting, use and endorse the product says a lot about it, you know. 'Cause I don't like y you you have no you have no obligation to say good things about that rifle. Yeah. speaker-0: Like I I could literally pick up any I could pick up a lot of different rifles and still shoot ⁓ but it's like if I if it works for me, I'm gonna talk well about it because it it does work. Like I'm not trying to BS anything here. Like it shoots great and I love the platform. I love everything about it. I love all the like I said, if I was gonna build a rifle, I would use these exact components. speaker-1: Right. Same. speaker-0: So it's it's a no brainer and especially when I look at the price, like, yeah, that's you know, I'd have to think about ⁓ you know, buying a rifle, but like I'm getting all the best components slapped on together at a cheaper price than I can put ⁓ together for on my own. And it shoots so well. No matter what I put down the the barrel. Yep. speaker-1: That's also the beauty of a rifle of this caliber, ⁓ is that you can stuff a lot of ammo in it and it's gonna perform really well. It might like, you know, XYZ ammo better than it likes this other ammo, but like generally speaking, you can put anything in the pipe of one of those rifles and it's gonna shoot. speaker-0: Yeah, like I I went on a you know, bear hunt this year, ⁓ with Zach up in ⁓ your your neck of the woods. We'll say exactly the neck of the woods, but yeah, up there somewhere. And ⁓ you know, I had all the confidence in the world that I was gonna kill something with it, but I just ⁓ at the end of the day, I guess I'm too picky. So it was it was it was my fault that we didn't kill with it because obviously I didn't find a bear big enough and I passed up a lot of bears, but that rifle every single day I sit over there like, ⁓ she's ready. That rifle like is itching. speaker-1: But yet it flips the conversation from like, I hope when I find the animal I want to kill that I'm able to kill ⁓ to I just need to find the animal I want to kill and then if you know the story's written the story's written. Yeah, the bullet's gonna go where it needs to go. That's that is like the blind confidence I go into every hunt with ⁓ with a rifle in my hands. Like all I need to do is find my target animal, the rest is history. speaker-0: Yep. Yep. Yeah, so I'm actually planning out some of my later in the fall hunts and I have a pretty sweet mule deer tag that I burn some points on and this bad boy's coming back out for a mule deer hunt coming coming in November, so speaker-1: Nice, you're gonna defy all the all the critics. speaker-0: I can't wait. It's gonna be a lot of comments because of my thirty cal love and I'm gonna shoot a mule there with the with a six five PRC. speaker-1: Yeah. What do you think of the six five PRC in general, just out of curiosity? Because I'm a huge fan of it. ⁓ I just think it does everything well. Magnum performance, but very shootable, endless bullet selection if you go down the reloading path, really good factory ammo support. Like I just think it's such an amazing caliber. We've killed a pile of elk with them, which is like kinda like everybody's well, does it do that well? You know, it's like Yeah, it does. It speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Are you gonna shoot an elk at a thousand yards with it? Probably not. Should it be should anybody be shooting elk at a thousand yards? Up up for discussion. ⁓ but yeah, I love the six five PRC. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, the cartridge in general, it I'm actually it's actually growing on me quite a bit. And especially when, like you said, there's a lot of bullet options out there and you see you just get a quality bullet and get time behind it. But then like I said, I just picked up dyes and I'm excited to reload for it because obviously I haven't reloaded for it yet. But everything I've, you know, read, watched, heard other people talk about it, it's like very easy to reload for. Which sometimes, you when I'm trying to reload a thirty cal, it's a little bit finicky here and there. Or like especially like on a rum, like you know, I gotta burn a lot of powder. So what's that doing? It's making me poor every single time I shoot, you know, I sh think I shoot nine nine nine ninety point four grains of my rum of H one thousand powder. And you look at what I'd be shooting in a six five PRC. It's like, ⁓ I can go to the range a lot more. speaker-1: It's a little over half. speaker-0: Yeah. So it saves me on my bank account by shooting something a little bit smaller, but it's still accurate and obviously I know, you know, distances and all that like we talked about. Yeah, I'm not gonna take it on an ill cut and shoot a thousand yards. That's not the weapon for it. For everything else I'm going for, if I'm shooting, you know, two hundred and fifty yards, you know, five hundred, six hundred yards, like I know the rifle's gonna put the bullet right there. And yeah, it's a fun it's a fun cartridge. It really is. speaker-1: Yep. Yeah. And then ⁓ Dale had a tenacity as well. He's we did kind of a ⁓ we did a little bit different deal with him because he wanted to shoot the six eight western. He had a barrel. So bas basically we built the rifle and then he had the barrel chambered and had ⁓ the Barnes guys install the barrel or something, but think his his rifle was hammering as well and he he speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: kill mountain goat at a hundred and twenty yards or whatever, but speaker-0: Have you s have you seen our kill shots yet? Have I ever sent you those? Or Dale show Dale showed them to you? speaker-1: They all might have showed them to me at the Hunt Expo. But I I was probably like trying to go a thousand different directions. speaker-0: Okay, maybe I'll just call a second. Yeah, I'll all at the text them to you. It's pretty it's gonna be an awesome film. I think I can't remember when Dale said they're trying to kick that out. I have a ⁓ actually have a sticky note here. It could be hopefully ⁓ late July, early August, we can see that film. Nice. So I'm excited I'm excited for that film. Like going into the coolest places, hanging out with a buddy and shooting two absolute cranker mountain goats. Like and watching on day one. speaker-1: Please do. Is it ⁓ it day day one, more like what was it, day six or seven? speaker-0: Yeah, 'cause we spent five days in an Airbnb going over to the rec center, playing basketball, eating every sort of restaurant, only like one restaurant in town and like going there multiple times, going to the library, hanging out, like yeah, it was it it felt like a longer hunt than what it was. And you you always wish when you go on a mountain goat hunt, like or any hunt for that matter, I would love just to kill on the last day. And like Yeah, that's the dream. 'Cause like I want to soak it up. Like I want to be in mountain goat country way more than one day. But when you have two Billy's in front of you that you're like, Yeah, you have that's those are day one shooters. Like I don't get layups like that very often and then ⁓ I'll take ⁓ all day when I can get ⁓ speaker-1: Just it's just part of the way it goes, you know? Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ how many days did you have left in your hunt? 'Cause you sit you sat around for five and then when you hunt on day one, so you're on day six. You probably had what, three or four days? speaker-0: I think we had three or four days left to hunt and our thought process was I w I did buy a bear tag before I went out, a black bear tag. And I really wanted to kill a black bear. But I've been to Alaska twice now, and every time I pick up a black bear tag, and the first time when I went moose hunting, I saw a bear but didn't get a chance to kill him. So I was like it'd be awesome. We have multiple days now to go black bear hunting. ⁓ but the problem was our camera guy Roy, when he tore up his knee, like literally made a gash all the way down to his bone right before we killed those mountain goats. speaker-1: Yeah, that's right. speaker-0: And we so we had like, you know, stairy strip them up and do all this stuff. And like after we killed the goats, and then obviously you've probably heard the story where, you know, we had to sleep underneath the goat hides that night. Like no tent, no anything. Just threw all of our clothes on. Like I even threw my rain gear on over top of my down, wore my, you know, puffy insulated mittens to bed and like slept underneath goat hides. Dale and I slept, you know, butt to butt all night. And then eventually started cuddling each other a little bit, trying to stay warm. ⁓ but the but the downside was that is like that wasn't That was actually kind of enjoyable. Obviously I'd d never probably want to do that again. ⁓ because it d is tough. But like Roy beating up his knee so bad, we figured we had to get him out of the mountains, like try to get that taken care of. And then we had some nasty rain coming in. The guys are like, Well, we could try to hunt and just fly the cameraman out, but most likely all we're gonna do is sitting in a tent w watching it rain multiple days and I don't know when I can fly you back out. So we elected just to Wheels up. Yeah, end the hunt right there. So Yeah, you go all that way to travel to a really cool place and you pick up, you know, two tags, which normally it doesn't work out when you pick up two tags, but I was hoping finally it probably would. And then you just have random circumstances. You can't, you know, control mother nature or anything. speaker-1: Quintessential Alaska. speaker-0: Yeah. Get in, do your thing and get out because it's gonna get nasty. Yeah. speaker-1: I'd love to know what percentage of Alaskan hunts ⁓ you get to hunt the full hunt. Great weather window, 'cause I don't think I've been on one. And I haven't been to Alaska that many times, but like invariably it's half a day in the tent and you get to hunt the evening or, you know, a full day or two full days in the tent, or it's always something. speaker-0: I know, right? Yeah. But yeah, hopefully I can make it back some day 'cause that place is amazing and ⁓ speaker-1: Yeah, I got I have I have moose on the brain. Like I know you do too, but speaker-0: They are amazing animal. speaker-1: Yeah, I just I just need to go see how big they are. speaker-0: Yeah. Once you walk up to a moose the first time, it is it it it's something that you just like you want that experience, but once you do it once, you're never gonna have that same feeling ever again because it is such a wild, wild experience. Like you see one at whatever distance if you're bow hunting them rifle hunting them, and then you walk up to it and you see it on the ground, you're like, That thing's real. Like there's no way that thing exists in this world. They're so big. And then even when you try to lift up their their rack, like you can't even lift up their head. Like they die right where they die and that's where you're cutting them up. Like it's it's a wild thing where I'm like, ⁓ Mule there, I'm just gonna grab it, drag it over here for some good pictures. Like Yeah. Yeah, we can Yeah. But Moose, yeah, they're s they're so cool. You gotta do it at one point. ⁓ speaker-1: Crop it up over here and That's plan. speaker-0: Yeah. So if you had to pick one one caliber right now, what would it be? speaker-1: I would pick the six five PRC. Like I said, I just I think it just does such a good job of checking all the boxes. You know, magnum performance, ⁓ fairly easy to manage the recoil and get second third shots downrange. ⁓ amazing bullet selection. Yeah. I yeah, I think it's a really all around amazing cartridge. And I speaker-0: Six mile P or C really. Yeah. speaker-1: I don't want to liken it to the 30 odd six because it has so much history, but like you can probably go just about anywhere and grab a box of six five PRC ammo these days. So it has that, you know, additional quality where like if something happened, yeah. If your ammo got seized by TSA or whatever the case may be, like you can probably get ammo for it. speaker-0: Yeah, that makes sense. That was always some of my like concerns with some of those other cartridges that were coming out, I don't know, last ten years or whatever. It's like they're kind of boutique, kinda hard to get. Like if I'm in the middle of nowhere and you know, I I f yeah, lose your ammo or fall and have to reside in and burn up a bunch of my stuff, like can I get extra ammo for it? And now with it being such a popular cartridge, like everywhere everyone has six five PRC. Yeah. And you can make it work. speaker-1: Yeah. It was also the first custom rifle I built was a six five PRC. So there's like a little bit of nostalgia too. So and I ⁓ I don't know. I've I I've got a lot of time with it. Like I I burned out that barrel. You know, I've I've got two more six five PRCs in my safe. ⁓ you know, I've I don't know. I've got thousands of rounds through a six five PRC, so I understand it well. The you know the I'm familiar with the wind calls and ⁓ I don't know. It just it hits home, it checks all the boxes. It's a great caliber. speaker-0: Okay. And then we're getting close to on time, but I have like maybe one more question for you. Basically, for a guy who's on the fence and he's been looking at, you know, basically a line production rifle compared to, you know, a custom tenacity rifle, what do you think would be the thing pushing that person over the edge to just go go the route and go tenacity over something you can just buy off a shelf? speaker-1: Well, if I had a chance to talk to him, I would I would basically explain it one way. It's like with the production rifle, you're playing the lottery. Right? Like you've if that rifle doesn't shoot, like you're gonna have an uphill battle to get it warranted, yada yada yada. Like it's it's a I don't wanna say it's a customer service nightmare, but like it's not a fun process to deal with, right? And like you have no clue if it's gonna shoot or not. Go in the tenacity direction, you're getting all the premium components. The rifle's going to shoot. If it doesn't shoot, which is a we've probably had like one, maybe two rifles that like didn't shoot up to our standards, you know, like would print some groups, but wouldn't, and it's like, is it ammo? Is it the rifle? But the discussion ends there. It's like, give me your rifle back, I'll rebarrel it for you. Right? Because like I just I want the customer. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: To be so thrilled and content with their purchase. So ⁓ that would be the thing. Like the production rifle, you're playing the lottery, tenacity, like you're gonna get a rifle that ⁓ you know issues very high end performance, but you're also gonna get the customer service team, me, like you're gonna call my phone, it's at my house on my desk. Like I'm gonna take care of you. So if for some reason you have an issue. It's not this huge uphill battle to resolve it. speaker-0: Yeah, you're not having to email someone, call four different numbers, not be able to get a hold of anyone. Like the thing, like that was a way good way to put it. Like you're kind of playing the lottery with a line production rifle. It might shoot, might not shoot, and then reaching out to people is hard. The way I think of this too is when you buy a tenacity, you're kind of part of the family. Like you said, you you're calling and you're you're the guy they're talking to. Yep. So like if you have questions, call and you're gonna get you and you're gonna get ⁓ on the phone and you're gonna walk through it and maybe give them some guidance on like, ⁓ yeah, this is what you need to do or even when they're trying to figure out, you know, the why if they want to buy one, they can talk to you. The r a real person who knows it and uses it and has put it to the test in the field, has gone on hunts with it, stands behind the product. And that to me is a huge selling point. Like I you know, we always talk about it's the people behind the brand or I feel like it's the people behind the brand rather than the brand itself. Like I like supporting cool people who work for brands and like when I obviously I've known you forever and it's like you're a good guy, like a really solid human being and you're working for a company who you're very passionate about. So I know if I want to pick up the phone, you know, if I didn't even know you, you're gonna be the guy answering it because like you're it's not like a small team per se, but it's like you're talking to actual people who trust the product and use it because like it's again it's a it's a family type feel when you when you're purchasing it or thinking about purchasing it. Yeah. Absolutely knowing I can call someone and talk to someone who's actually used it. Like instead of going to like a a a store and you walk in and they're like, tell me about that rifle and they probably never shot it. Right. speaker-1: Yeah, like largely I think what you're getting from us ⁓ is confidence in our product and confidence in the people behind the product that we believe in it and are gonna support you through your journey with the product. You know, whether that's an absolutely flawless journey or for some reason it's not. Like we're gonna be here. ⁓ I also like I I know not everybody lives in close proximity to me, but like I've sold quite a few rifles to people in the greater Gallatin Valley area, right? And like people come over all the time and I mount their scopes for ⁓ for free and like walk ⁓ through the process and you know, I just like I'm always trying to help ⁓ along through this journey and shorten the learning curve for ⁓ But yeah, I don't know. It's just we're we are a small company. Like you're gonna get me, you're gonna get a great product. Like, I don't know. If if that's not worth it to you, it's not worth it to you. But like That's the kind of person or team or product or brand that I want to support. speaker-0: And even like a a side thing too is like, so obviously, you know, guys in the office know I shoot at tenacity. And then Hunter, who's one of our buyers here at Go Hunt, his dad recently bought one from you. Yeah. Because he was just constant they're constantly asking me all these questions, like, what do you what do you think about it? All this. And then like after he bought it, he said the communication was phenomenal. Like you guys had like some other promo going on. He asked, Hey, can I swap it over to this? He's like, You're like, Yeah, let's do it. And like he kept telling me how much that meant to his dad. Like Obviously working through things, he was gonna buy one, but like wanted some you know, a little bit something else on top of it because he had some promo going on and like yeah, that meant the world to him. Like knowing that he's gonna get it, and he keeps saying he's so excited to get this rifle in hand. He's like, he's gonna bring it in the office, we're gonna get it set up for him. And you know, he has a great tag he wants to go on, but just like he keeps saying, like, the people that I dealt with on the phone call, like that was everything to making his decision to purchase that rifle. Yep. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: And that was really, really cool to see. Like obviously I didn't even know he was gonna buy one. And all of a sudden he told Hey, I went and bought one his dad went and bought one. I thought, you know, that was super cool, just randomly and then all the conversations, like that that means a lot. Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, Hunter came by our booth at the expo with his dad. And they looked at our rifles and whatever and but that was ⁓ five, six months ago. ⁓ but yeah, I don't know. It's I'm I'm sure you helped push him over the edge with your experience, but I always try to be as transparent as possible, as helpful as possible. speaker-0: ⁓ Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ I try to communicate the best I can 'cause it's such it's such a simple thing, but it's so important. ⁓ you know, and if communication is hard before your purchase, it's probably only gonna get harder after your purchase. So I I try to I just try to do those little things well, you know, and help help consumers or buyers feel confident in the decision they're making. speaker-0: Yep, one said. Yep. Perfect. ⁓ how can people ⁓ learn more about tenacity firearms? Good jump over to the website. speaker-1: Yeah, you can go to the website, tenacityarms.com. You can check us out on Instagram at Tenacity Arms. ⁓ you can call in, you can email at infotenacityarms.com, you can email me directly at andrew at tenacityarms.com. speaker-0: Giving out your email on the podcast, that right there is great customer service. I won't I I don't do that. Okay. ⁓ speaker-1: Throw ⁓ over. Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm I'm happy to help and ⁓ I appreciate the dialogue. E even if people go a different direction, I wanna have the dialogue and let ⁓ know what their options are. So speaker-0: Yeah. I appreciate the time. It was a fun fun podcast. And ⁓ I think I might be seeing you hopefully in a month. Yeah, could hang out a little bit, shoot some rifles. And ⁓ yeah, I got my baby sitting right here. speaker-1: Yeah, August seventh. Nice, I I have a good surprise for you, for a rifle to shoot when you get here. speaker-0: okay. I can't wait to to see this. speaker-1: Yeah, it's yeah. We'll talk about it. I have a rifle you'll like. speaker-0: Okay. Okay. Sweet. All right. And hopefully this bad boy will be seeing an absolute cranker of a mule deer this fall. And ⁓ I think I'm actually gonna do too. I was talking to my buddy, and we gotta get off the phone, but we're only gonna pack one rifle. I'm like, I have a rifle that I know will shoot. So why are we gonna carry two rifles onto this hunt? Let's just carry one and hand it back and forth, save some extra weight. I'm like, it's gonna shoot. It's like, ⁓ I know if it's a rifle that you have in your hand in your house, it's it's gonna work on a hunt and you have z like, yeah, zero hesitations on it. So I'm so looking forward to that, Hunt. It's gonna be we just need some snow and some cold weather. Let's get rid of this heat in around the west. speaker-1: I saw something that said we have a he we have ⁓ a heck of an El Nino coming this year, so wet, snowy, lots of pre sip, lots of cold this winter. speaker-0: We'll see. Yeah, hopefully there's a big old buck that's gonna get so excited in the rut and come out early and show its face for us. So speaker-1: I don't think I put a jacket on last year. I think I hunted in a cotton T shirt like all of November. speaker-0: Yeah, it was like sixty-five degrees where we were at ⁓ Elkana. Yeah. Anyway. Well, Andrew, appreciate ya. And like you said, guys go check out Tenacity. They're an awesome rifle. And I wouldn't say that if I didn't mean it. So Thanksgiving. speaker-1: Well, Likewise, take care.