Maryam: Welcome to the Zero Comfort Zone, where we explore work, leadership, friendship, and all the ways we navigate what life throws at us without killing our dreams, our sanity, or others in the process. Sjierly Pereira: My name is Shirley Rodriguez Pereira. I'm coming to you from Amsterdam. My mantra is be stubborn about your goals, but be flexible about your methods. Maryam Darwich: I'm Mariam Bowish speaking to you from Sierra Leone, where I learned the hard way that if the workplace you want doesn't exist yet, sometimes you have to build it yourself. The theme of the next three episodes is unapologetic. Every episode is based on the idea of breaking down negative terms and understanding the why behind the label. In today's episode, Unapologetically Me, the focus is on staying you under pressure. So let's get into the juicy stuff. Obviously, Shirley, you'd mentioned this in your introduction earlier around setting up your organization, schooling for life in Sierra Leone. And I can imagine as you were building it, you had to make a lot of decisions. Sjierly Pereira: Buh! Yeah. Maryam Darwich: on this idea of following our instincts, our gut, our intuition. how do you know when to follow that and when to ask for advice? Sjierly Pereira: So to be honest, I feel like you should always follow your gut, actually looks up the difference between following your gut and following your intuition. Maryam Darwich: Why does that not surprise me? So tell me, educate me. Sjierly Pereira: So following your gut, I mean, don't pee me down on this, apparently, according to Google, following your gut is more instinctive. It's more about immediate situations, whereas following your intuition is more about more long-term, more, it also comes with more Maryam Darwich: Mm-hmm. You're being recorded, you're gonna get pinned down on this. Right. Sjierly Pereira: just, yeah, exactly, relying on your experience, on your knowledge, So I would say I'm more of a follow your intuition kind of person. And I feel like there's two approaches to it Maryam Darwich: experience. Interesting. Mmm. Sjierly Pereira: Like you have following your intuition people wise, and you have following your intuition situation wise, if that makes sense. And I rely heavily on my people radar. Maryam Darwich: Mm-hmm. Sjierly Pereira: This is very important to me because when I didn't do that in the past, it usually bit me in the end. I'm, one of those people, like, if I meet someone, I will, like, I will get a sense of you right away, I really believe in following your people radar. And when it comes to situations, I really follow my intuition. But also because it will be largely based on having done my research on, know, knowing what the right decision is because I come in situations prepared. And this is, where I was talking about the intuition part, having your facts ready, having your information ready, being like, well read, understanding a situation because Maryam Darwich: Next. Sjierly Pereira: then it's maybe it's part your gut, but also understand that your gut is just a signal to your brain based on previous experiences, moving forward, I mean, your brain can also fool you. when you meet people, from different cultures, for example, who trigger you in a way that you're not used to, but your brain is telling you that it's a certain kind of person. Maryam Darwich: Yeah. Sjierly Pereira: you're going to get a disconnect, So here also comes in the being open to new people kind of perspective. I do really trust my intuition, but that's also largely based on being well informed and making sure that you have your facts straight. And Maryam Darwich: Mm. Sjierly Pereira: You know, when you when you go into a situation because you asked me follow your gut or ask for advice. like I said, I follow my intuition at the same time. When I go into a situation, I will ask myself, do I have the information I need? Do I have the skills I need to be able to fulfill whatever I, I want to achieve? yes. Great. No. I have a couple of avenues, I can either get the information somehow. Can I learn a new skill? Like, can I learn how to do whatever I need to do? Am I at a level that I can solve whatever, like I will get to that later, but I feel like problem solving skills, is such an underrated skill. Like it will basically get you out of any kind of situation. And if I feel like I'm gonna run into things that are beyond my ability to solve, beyond my ability to learn about, then I will go and get advice. I will go and ask people. I will think about, who has this information that I could ask? And then obviously comes the point where you need to think about Do I trust this person, you don't just ask or I don't just ask anybody for help. so when it comes to asking for advice or following your intuition, for me, it's very much about being informed, having the facts. And trusting yourself as well, Even when you ask for advice, you need to trust yourself first. you have to have the confidence in your own knowledge. And that comes from a lot of self reflection. I actively hold myself accountable for the, for the things that happen in my life, Maryam Darwich: Yeah. Sjierly Pereira: So that means that if things happen, I reflect, think about, you know, why did that happen? How could I have done it differently? What should I do differently next time? Whether it's a conversation or an interaction or a complete situation, decision that you made that affected other people, for example. And I'm saying this like it's sort of a big epiphany that I had, but obviously this is my experience. Exactly, I didn't just pick it up off the shelf because you can't control everything that happens in life and you can't control what people think, but you can control Maryam Darwich: Your radar is not for sale. huh. Sjierly Pereira: how you respond to other people and you can also control how you think about a situation and how you respond to it. And also when I did trust my intuition or I thought I had things under control Obviously things still can go wrong, you can make a decision and it just backfires. It's not turning out the way that you thought it would. What I've learned over the years is to regroup really quickly. I can be taken aback, things obviously still rattle me. but I do regroup very quickly, maybe, I need an hour. Maybe sometimes you need a day to have like a little pity party, but then the next day immediately I start thinking about, okay, how can I do this differently? what can I do now to make it better going forward? So I really believe in. Maryam Darwich: Hahaha Sjierly Pereira: conscious, intentional decisions, trial and error. Yeah. Maryam Darwich: I think the level of growth, that is clear from how you've described and shaped how you approach different things, definitely comes with lot of exposure and a lot of experience, And I guess the one thing that I would add on to what you said is that it's okay if our listeners don't feel like they're quite there. I'm not sure that I would have the same confidence to articulate some of the things that you've said, especially regarding, your people radar in the same way. And I think it's just one thing though that I think is really important, everything that you said. Sjierly Pereira: Yeah. Maryam Darwich: is reminding ourselves that, and I think you've said it throughout, which is clearly why it's such a core foundation of how you steer yourself, is this ability to recenter and understand that even if you're not fully in control of everything, there is still something that you're in control of. And that component is what grounds you and then helps you make the next step, right? So whether it's Sjierly Pereira: Exactly. Maryam Darwich: what do you want to achieve from this? You're in control of that. Your action should enable you to achieve that result. If you're clear from the outset, this is what you want to achieve. And I think that's what guides me even when I feel like, no, I shouldn't have trusted this person. I shouldn't have done that. Right? Like, yeah, yeah, that's certainly that. Okay. But what can I do now? what is a result that I want to achieve? Sjierly Pereira: I've been there, yeah. Maryam Darwich: at this point and what would be the best way to go about it. And there are things that we learn from, like you mentioned, some people are quick to digest, reflect and act. Others may need longer, right? So just it's really important that, yeah, we, guess everybody really has to think about what is your digestion process, but how does that feed to increased effectiveness versus being the host of your pity party forever, right? So this is something that really stood out for me. it's always nice to hear experiences from a very clear perspective so that you're also able to think about what can I learn from it, even when I may not have that solid clarity in that area. Sjierly Pereira: Yeah. I think so too. And obviously, that's also how I've learned, just to to listen to other people constantly and hear other people do things. So in the end, Maryam Darwich: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Sjierly Pereira: when we run our businesses, when we interact with people, there's also situations where you have to decide what not to do, There are so many things happening around us that try to trigger you, Maryam Darwich: Absolutely. Sjierly Pereira: what I would find interesting to know from you is how do you decide what not to do? how do you make that decision? Maryam Darwich: Earlier I said to you that I'm the kind of person that I want to do something, when I see an opportunity, when I'm driven in a certain way, when I'm captured by something, I just go for it. Right? The opposite is the case when I'm not comfortable. I tend to then sit and reflect a lot on certain things. I think setting up your own business and saying I'm going to do this alone at 23, 24, sort contributed to the journey that I went through in my earlier years, I followed intuition, intuition in my early 20s is very different from intuition in my late 30s. what is feeding into that intuition is a completely different recipe and different priorities. I always say start off by thinking is this aligned or is this going to take you off track because life will generally veer you off track so alignment has to be your centering point. if we're thinking from a sort of a larger professional perspective or a leadership perspective, then for me, it's being clear on my vision, What am I trying to, if I take the example of my business at Africa, what am I trying to build? Does this move me closer to that direction of what I'm trying to build? Or is it just noise? You know, like there's so many things that you get asked to participate in and you've got to think about what you're building and then think about, this get me closer to what I'm building or is it just noise? And what you're building should be the focus. I have a weird kind of confidence, I would say. Like people see me as super confident, but there's always a part of me that is very reflective that thinks and over thinks and questions it's not like I always feel like I'm right or I know it all, although that's what some people say they feel when they speak to me. But it's not at all. It's just because for me to get to that point, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this to get to that point of feeling confident enough to talk about it. why I'm sharing this is because That has meant that I was comfortable saying no and continue to be comfortable saying no to things that I do not feel comfortable or confident or in that position to be able to deliver. So I have no problem, whoever it is and whatever context it is and however much money I may lose to just say no. And I think to me, saying no is such an important business skill And I find that people respect you a lot more when your no is clearly vision driven, values driven, whatever it is driven, than when it's just a general no. And I'll make a real example with that would work. As a Muslim woman, I'm driven even in my professional relationships by some of the values. of my religion, we believe that certain income generated is either considered blessed income in a way or not, So if you don't work hard for your money, if you take money that comes from questionable sources, This is not considered to be the kind of money that will multiply. It's actually considered, according to our beliefs, the kind of money that will take away from the good money. Sjierly Pereira: Mm. Maryam Darwich: So that basically means that if it's, a betting company or an alcohol consumption or production, like you think twice before you approach it subject to the kind of work that you'll be delivering to that company. And Christians in Sierra Leone have similar beliefs in terms of Christians who also Sjierly Pereira: Hmm. Maryam Darwich: practice in a certain way. So when we started getting requests from clients in certain areas of operation, we created internally a committee that would review whether the operations of the client or their brand aligns with the values that we believe our brand should push. So I'm very strongly against the culture of gambling and betting in extremely poor and underdeveloped countries. I have the same issues with it outside. Sjierly Pereira: Okay. Maryam Darwich: of these spaces, And I remember thinking, Shirley, how uncomfortable it would be to break that feedback once the committee sat and agreed that actually we don't want to be supporting that kind of client. How stupid I would be to go and turn business down, right? Like, sorry, I can't help you because of this. But then I realized, at end of the day, my business is not representing just me alone. It has to represent others who work with me and I cannot make decisions independently of them. And I realized that when I thought about it, when I reflected on the results that I wanted to achieve going back to this point you made about control, Sjierly Pereira: Thank Maryam Darwich: and knowing what you want to achieve. It was a lot easier to say the no in a way that was understood and respected by the client. In certain cases, I was even able to say, we can offer you this service, for example, learning and development but we cannot recruit for you a brewer, for example, on all occasions where we've said no, because of values driven or focus areas people I felt, have respected us more and engaged us in different ways moving forward. So why I went through this quite detailed story is because a lot of the time, the reaction that we perceive is bigger in our head than it is in reality. And so when we are thinking about what not to do, we assume that somebody has to be upset at the end of it, right? Especially if they've offered a collaboration or a support but actually they don't have to be. You can actually end up building a more effective, longer term, maybe different kind of relationship if you are comfortable saying no, but saying it in a way that still helps you achieve your results. Some other things that I would leave this question with that I ask myself a lot. Is saying yes to this thing going to strengthen our work as a team at Africa? Do I sense in whoever it is that's coming to me with this request that is trying to rush me or leading me to rush a decision that I know I should think about a little bit more? again, priorities of the other party, do I feel like their priorities are different? And that may mean that they would be willing to not do things right, or maybe not willing to take the time that I feel is needed to do things right. Do I feel that they see me as a partner? Right? Like I've been very comfortable challenging offers and collaborations where I feel that somebody Sjierly Pereira: Yeah. Maryam Darwich: sees me as lesser than them, again, if you're going into a partnership, would always say, make sure that you feel like you are and you position yourself as a partner. businesses working in the continent are usually perceived by businesses from outside the continent as somehow different, they even mention you in proposals and things as a local partner as if that somehow, you means something different. And again, we should push back on that as African businesses. We should say we are experts in the spaces in which we work, have stronger networks than everybody else has. Just because we're based here doesn't mean we should get compensated any differently than you based in A, C and D. So Sjierly Pereira: Yep. Yeah. Maryam Darwich: make sure that people don't see you as an opportunity that they can utilize. if I feel like I'm somebody else's opportunity, then that drives me to say no, to stand my ground, to push back. And I always say, be comfortable to own these bad collaborations that you made. And the reason why I'm saying that is you should be able to guide those around you. Sjierly Pereira: Yeah. Maryam Darwich: in making these kinds of decisions themselves as well. your team should be able to know when this is a no versus when this is a yes. And when you've made bad mistakes and you've learned from them, don't hide and say, no, I cannot tell anybody that this collaboration was a really bad idea. Actually, no, you should call a meeting. You should reflect. You should share. You should discuss what you've learned. So people also understand that, you don't always make the right decision, but you can learn from it then think about how these collaborations and partnerships move forward. Now, Sjierly Pereira: Yeah. you really like that answer it, aligns really, well with what we're trying to send out into this world. Also through this podcast, about being unapologetically you, what I hear from you is even, when you have to like sell a no, it needs to come from confidence, It needs to come from knowing your own goals. It needs to come from trusting yourself and blocking out the noise. love that. blocking out the noise, is something that is not talked about enough about how you do that. Maybe we can get into that a little bit more another time, because it's such a large part of how do you focus, How do you keep yourself on track? How do you protect what you're trying to achieve? Maryam Darwich: Yeah. No. Sjierly Pereira: because there is so much noise out there, Even when you're working and your emails pop up or your phone goes off used to talk about it a lot with the students in relation to, their schoolwork, but it also goes for us, the adults being in the business world, how to block out the noise. And I just love that your focus is what am I building, Maryam Darwich: Hmm? Sjierly Pereira: Now, when we're doing business, we've experienced this both you get a lot of Maryam Darwich: You Sjierly Pereira: advice from people, And you need to decide when to listen to people and when not to listen to other people, How do you decide when to listen and when to stick to your guns or hold on to your principles, like you explained before? Maryam Darwich: So I think I tend to listen, And what I mean by listen is I'm interested in what people have to say, whether I agree with it, whether I action it or not, it's a different part of the equation. But I am interested in what you have to say and understanding why you're saying it to me, That helps me then decide and create that filter that we Sjierly Pereira: Mm-hmm. Maryam Darwich: discussed about earlier between noise and genuine advice, if you're coming to me with something that I feel I can engage and discuss and there's value in it, I'll do it. If you're coming to, I will have that conversation to figure out what I want to get out of it. in terms of who I seek now, like, as you mentioned, I think every person should have a group of trusted advisors, like the board of Marianne, whether I run a business or not, there should be my board. This board is the one that I report to even when they don't ask for a report. The one I call emergency meetings where they, know, and these are people that you build throughout your life. And I don't think anybody should tell you this person has to be there or has to not be there, you know who you want to go to. you don't need to have a business to have a board, but these people need to understand you. They need to understand the environment that you're in or that you're navigating. They need to be people that have demonstrated integrity. They need to be people that have sound judgment, Like that you've seen make the right kinds of decisions and judge. You don't just add anybody to that board because this is the one that's going to help Maryam succeed or not, And so when people start seeing themselves as a business, that needs a good board, they're going to then be thinking, a lot more about who they're going to go to for advice than just, let me pick up the phone and speak to the so-and-so person who I think knows something because she was in that kind of space. And I would also want somebody that I feel actually cares for me. that wants me to succeed because there are a lot of people that you can get advice from who maybe understand the work and the environment. But maybe that advice is not going to have that additional flavor of care and concern. Maybe they're not going to ask you the right kind of questions to make sure that you don't trip up and fall. and I think care doesn't need to come from personal relationships because people always conflate that term with Sjierly Pereira: Thank Maryam Darwich: family, friends, lovers. No, I disagree. my business grew because of people that I call my super fan customers that became really invested in the success of my business because they saw the way I approached the work with them. We're not friends, we're not family, but we have really strong professional relationships that have made them. and made me feel like they cared because I cared about how I was doing the work for them. And I don't believe I could be where I am today without the people throughout my life, whether I'm in touch with them now or not, who have been integral to helping me. digest and engage and interact with whatever stage of my building block I was in. I appreciate them all, and what they've contributed. These are not questions that you talk about regularly. It's really interesting to think about how you approach that and the humility that comes with reflecting back on your journey and thinking, this is how far I've come. Is it the same for you, Shirley? I mean, Sjierly Pereira: No! Maryam Darwich: who are those people for you that you take advice from and how do you choose who you trust and the trusted people in your network? Sjierly Pereira: I ask different people for different advice. It can be a mentor or, a family member or a friend. For me, the main point is do I trust you and that trust. needs to touch on different points, There's maybe two types of trust. Like, do I trust you as a person in the sense that... Can I ask you for advice or support and feel vulnerable? Because asking for advice or support is putting you in a vulnerable place, showing that you need something from the other person. And I need to know when I ask someone for advice that they're not gonna lay that on thick, And another thing like in trusting someone as a person is are you going to give me the best advice for me? I'm not asking someone for advice to then get like generic advice. I want you to give me advice that has my best interest at heart. Maryam Darwich: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sjierly Pereira: Right. Do you know me well enough? to give me advice that's going to work for me? Whether it's on a business level, on a personal level, it doesn't really matter, And then to come back to that point about vulnerability, can I trust you with this information that I'm giving you? are you gonna keep it to yourself or are you gonna talk to someone else about what I told you? Or are you gonna throw back in my face later? all those things all culminate into, can I trust you? that is one side of it. if I do trust that person then it's about trusting the person's experience, the knowledge, their perspective, their reasoning skills on whatever it is that you need support with, I only go to people to ask for advice who I trust based on the content of the question. Certain people just have more knowledge on a certain aspect of what you're trying to do, I do think it's important for me. to have mentors in my life, especially when I was, moving to a new country. I didn't study to like build my own business. I didn't do business school, you know, I come from a completely different backgrounds education wise. So I think it's important to have. people in your life who you look up to, who you respect, who have more experience than you, who can help you see different perspectives or different angles in the way that you approach things, especially in business, people who you feel have done things with the principles, with the values, with the approach that you have respect for, I wouldn't ask someone for advice who's thinking I didn't respect So that is how I choose, how I choose my like inner circle around me. Maryam Darwich: you're surely bored. I think one thing that I've also learned over the years, which is not a perhaps for some, natural group of people to go to for advice, but I think my team has been a strong source of advice. Sjierly Pereira: Hahaha Maryam Darwich: when you ask for advice, you're also helping others see the importance of not ever feeling that they should be doing things alone, And especially in team spaces, I think it's something that as we get more and more into leadership responsibilities, it is something that we should be doing even when we don't always feel that we need it. Sjierly Pereira: Very true. Maryam Darwich: It builds a culture of openness, of expression. And like you said, that foundation of trust, trust in teams is not built in outside spaces, right? It is an intentional journey to build it. And it's brilliant from a capacity building perspective as well, because you stop being the one always providing the advice, but they come to see themselves as a source of knowledge and information as well. and I think there's a lot of value in it. I think we can approach it for, the trust building and the, the capacity building part, I think sometimes as well, feeling like you're quite knowledgeable in a space can be a problem, There's more than one way of approaching this. And maybe it's good engaging with my colleagues who've been doing the same work or seeing even our approaching or maybe seeing a dynamic that I'm not even aware of at my level, right? Because we are sheltered in certain ways as we go up the ranks. there's a lot of value in that. So yeah, I just wanted to buffer with everything you said, because I fully agree with it and just remind ourselves that our team is also such an important part of that. Sjierly Pereira: Absolutely. think that's very true. Now, as we come to the end of this episode, we've talked about a lot of different aspects of, Maryam Darwich: Yeah. Sjierly Pereira: asking people for advice, getting advice, getting advice you want getting advice you don't listening to it, not listening to it. At the end of the day. Maryam Darwich: Mm-hmm Sjierly Pereira: What would you want people listening to this episode, how would you want them to feel about what we've talked about What would you hope they feel after this episode? Maryam Darwich: So one thing that I think is really important to leave this episode with is ground yourself, Find what it is that helps you stay in control of whatever it is that you can control. Something that you said at the beginning that I think has reverberated, through all of our responses, right? whether it's what's your building, whether it's your values, whether it's your vision, whatever it is, that should be what is your filter, right? So I guess find your way of digesting information in a way that makes sense to you and go back to one of my points earlier that brings you focus that that helps you stay on track, right? think about how it is you can filter whatever it is that's coming so you don't feel overwhelmed. We talked a little bit in today's episode about the importance of saying no, saying no in a way that allows you to be true to yourself, helps you stay comfortable, helps you stay on track. And I think one thing that I also, another thing that I'd like people to leave with is trust yourself. you know yourself better than anybody else. So if somebody's opinion is not making you feel great and not clearly giving you clarity on how to feel great, that opinion is not coming from somebody that you should really entertain. Sjierly Pereira: Listen to that. Maryam Darwich: If you're feeling motivated to change positively, even if it feels uncomfortable, that's who you want to spend more time with. But if it's making you feel down, if it's making you feel unable to have clarity on your next steps, then whoever gave you that advice hasn't actually given you any advice. So, you want to be with people that push you, that challenge you, that make you uncomfortable, but give you a way out, right? we hope that you feel you're not alone. You've got this. that's what I want our listeners to leave with. Sjierly Pereira: I think that's a great way to end this episode. Now, before we do that, should we talk really quickly about what the next episodes are gonna look like and how often people can expect us coming into the air? we're gonna be releasing an episode every month, Maryam Darwich: What next? Definitely. Sjierly Pereira: people can listen to us on Spotify, Apple podcasts. and obviously we hope that people will subscribe to our podcast. If they found this episode interesting, we will also very soon, facilitate The way to interact with us and ask us questions. That's definitely where we want to go. Maryam Darwich: Hmm? Sjierly Pereira: Do you want to add anything? Maryam Darwich: people can find us on LinkedIn, they can drop us a message, they can let us know what it is that they're thinking or they're feeling after we appreciate. you know, all the kind of feedback that's going to help this community grow, that's going to help us stay on track. we hope people will come along and join this journey. But if you've stuck around this long in our podcast, guess from me, I want to say thank you. Thank you for listening to us today. And Shirley, it's been lovely doing this first podcast with you. Sjierly Pereira: Same here, yes, I also want to thank our listeners. Hopefully we have some for our first episode. Like you said for the next. Maryam Darwich: That's why I thanked you just in case. It was just me and you. Sjierly Pereira: For the next, at least two episodes, we'll be continuing with the theme of unapologetic. and we'll be talking in our next episodes about integrity over shortcuts, about protecting your boundaries, something that we touched upon today. So that's something we will go deeper into. I think it only leaves us to thank everybody for joining us on this podcast. this episode and hopefully see you next time. Thank you very much, Mario, for this first episode. It's been a pleasure. yeah, thanks everybody. Have a great day. Maryam Darwich: Thank you. Sjierly Pereira: Hi, thank you so much for listening to the Zero Comfort Zone podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please support us by liking and subscribing to our channel. This way, we can grow our community and you're notified when a new episode airs. And of course, feel free to share it with anyone you think would enjoy it too. We hope to see you in the next episode. Thanks so much and have a great day.