speaker-0: You know, I kind of froze for a minute. I'm like, that this is crazy. Like this is really happening. And out of corner I see General Shelton and he's kinda like, Okay. And I said, They destroyed the satellite. He makes the call to the Secretary of Defense. It was clear at that point that space would forever be contested.

speaker-2: First time in sixty three years that a new service had ever st

speaker-0: Yeah, we won the Cold War.

speaker-1: Who's in charge of us?

speaker-2: Did you always know you wanted to go in the military? The courage needed to just kinda step into the void.

speaker-0: He goes, ⁓ that's a terrible idea. That's unproven path. I'm like, that's what I'm gonna do. I watched the Chinese destroy a satellite and Jennifer's like, we're late for soccer practice. Let's go. I'm in the Middle East fighting the war. While I'm away, they decide to stand up a space force.

speaker-1: You are part of starting a new service.

speaker-2: how it changed life as we know it forever. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Space Power Podcast. I'm your host, Bill Wolf, and I'm honored to be back in the Space House. Just a little over four years ago, I was sitting right here in this room talking to then a brand new CSO, General Saltzman. Today I have the honor to sit down back in the space house talking to General Saltzman and Jennifer Saltzman. Thanks so much for letting SFA back into your home. And it's all set up right now for the fourth of July. Jennifer, you don't miss a holiday.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-2: And I know there's probably a dedicated to just your decorations. But we gotta start all the way back because again, the Space House didn't exist when we entered the service. The Space Force was it wasn't even a thought thirty years ago. But let's even go back a little bit further. Can you tell the story about how you met and really specifically how you asked Jennifer to marry you?

speaker-1: I don't know.

speaker-0: Honestly, I don't remember not knowing Jennifer. Like a I mean she's

speaker-1: I think we must have met I was in seventh grade, I think, and he was would have been in ninth grade. Mm-hmm. The reintroduction though, that that's the story. The fact that we, you know, even re met again was because which I don't remember what it's called. Like you had to stay you had graduated from college, ⁓ and came home because you couldn't go on you couldn't go to Vandenberg yet.

speaker-0: With no short of long time. Yeah, we won the Cold War, remember? That's right. And the peace dividends, so we were all on delayed entry. So it was like, All right, you're you're a second lieutenant, but need you to go find a job before you go to training. my gosh.

speaker-2: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: And it was like ten months. And he came back home and I was in college at Western Kentucky and it was in the summer and it was at a Sigma Chai summer party. That's where I think we differ a little bit, but at a Sigma Kai summer party and we just kind of

speaker-0: I would never go to a Sigma Kai summer party. Of course you wouldn't, sir. Had to be a Landekai. Right.

speaker-1: See that yeah, no. Cause I was a little sister, so it was definitely we were at the Sigma Kai house and I you know, we just kind of saw each other and were chatting and then before you knew it, I don't know, we went on a date and then that was it. And ten months later we got engaged.

speaker-0: Yeah, Jennifer was turning twenty one. That's just how long it was. Her birthday's on March first, so I took her to lunch, I think. Was it dinner? It was dinner.

speaker-1: That's true. It was dinner. Dinner. It was dinner.

speaker-0: at our favorite restaurant and it just so happened that it was a leap year. So it wasn't really her birthday, it was February twenty ninth. And I'm like, well does she turn twenty one? Can we get drinks? Like I don't know if like are you I mean February twenty ninth kind of throws off the f March first, twenty first birthday a little bit. But I we did have champagne delivered and I asked her to marry me and she didn't talk for a while. She didn't eat. I had to eat her meal and mine.

speaker-1: I know. I did co I was like, gosh, y I mean, I could have eaten first or something, but I think the more fun story, the old school story is how you talk to my dad.

speaker-0: Well, yeah. You mean you gotta ask for permission, you know. Yes. He was all business. Dr. John Peterson, vice president of academic affairs at Western Kentucky. As soon as I you know, her mom was like, ⁓ this is great. And her dad was like, What's your plan? How's she gonna finish her degree? What are you where are you gonna go? What's the so I I had a few things. I I anticipated that. I was a planner even back then, I guess. And I anticipated that and I showed the brochure of

speaker-2: Sure, how'd that conversation go?

speaker-0: The College of Great Falls, Montana, and how she was gonna be well educated, ⁓ even if she followed me around. And that seemed to carry it a day.

speaker-1: It did. ⁓ I mean but absolutely. Education was super important and I think that's what mom would say or mom said that he said, Well, sure, but she has to graduate college first. ⁓ and then, you know, you're like, Well here, College of Great Falls information. ⁓

speaker-0: Did you?

speaker-2: Always know you want to go in the military?

speaker-0: No, no. I I was pretty sure I needed to go away for college. You know, most of my friends were staying local at Western Kentucky or going to University of Kentucky and just felt like I needed to see something different. And, you know, pre internet days, so I got a brochure on Boston University and asked like this this sounds good. And ⁓ but we couldn't afford that and so the the best option was to get an ROTC scholarship. And so I got an ROTC scholarship, went to BU and had no idea that it would lead this far. I figured, what ⁓ four years after college? No problem. Four years and then we'll get on with life. And here we are, thirty five years later. Right.

speaker-2: And what does that mean for you when you were saying yes when he asked you to marry him? What are you thinking about the military?

speaker-1: Yeah, I had no I mean, family, no military history. I didn't really know how that worked. ⁓ and I definitely didn't know anything. I was twenty one years old. So let's be clear, I wasn't I wasn't really sure. I mean, I knew I was gonna go to col you know, continue to go to college. Apparently I was gonna move to Montana. I'd never been there before or had driven through maybe. ⁓ my family we were big summer travelers. He mentioned my dad was, you know, in the university, so when summer break happened the four of us would just get in the car. I mean, we I really do think, ⁓ been to all the states, the, you know, continental ones, you know, driving around. So I'd driven through Montana, but had never spent any time there. ⁓ I so I didn't know what I was getting into. I mean, I I I had no idea. I mean it sounded cool. The military sounded like, okay, this is a great idea, but I think it was more like, okay, I'm gonna

speaker-0: questions and I didn't know the answer to any of them. So we're like, all right, I guess we're in this together. We'll just sort it out as we go.

speaker-1: Right. I think I think the bigger part was just you know, I thought, Well, I'm good with you know, this is good, so we'll figure out the other stuff. 'Cause he didn't, you know, have any of those answers either. So I yeah, I think we've just been doing that the whole time. It's just figuring it out.

speaker-0: Yeah, we got engaged like two weeks before I left for Vandenberg for missile training.

speaker-2: I remember a lot of us at that time, it was a big drawdown after the first Gulf War and and so there were not not a lot of pilot slots that were being handed out across the military. And so I suspect when you were looking at and got your R O T C scholarship, of course you're going Air Force and you probably put your dream sheet. What was on your dream sheet coming out of R O T C?

speaker-0: Well, again, we kind of backed into this situation, right? 'Cause you r you'll remember they only gave scholarships ⁓ at that time to technical degrees for technical degrees. And so my scholarship was in physics, which I gave at my all for at least three semesters. ⁓ but that was not gonna work out for anybody. So when I switched to a non technical degree, the the only way they would let me keep My scholarship was if I was willing to be an ICBM operator. And I'm like, Absolutely. Like and like they were like, Are you sure? I'm like, Y absolutely. What do I I mean, it sounded great. Like, you know, continue on, get a degree, get a commission, whole thing. So so that's how we got into I C V ⁓ operations is they thought they were getting a good deal and I knew I was getting a good deal, so

speaker-2: I remember the pitch to me it was, Hey, do you want to get your master's degree paid for? And I said, Yeah, that sounds good. Sure. And hey, what do you think about working eight days a month? I was like, ⁓ yeah. All good. There's some new ones here, of course. And so let's go to that point where we're in God's country, Montana, Craig Falls, at Malstrom Air Force Base. And I remember I was going on alert because at the time it was

speaker-0: That's true. Like there's no downside here. It sounds all good. Yeah.

speaker-2: I was waiting for my crew commander. He was not pulling alerts. And so I'm going on alert with the senior crew of standardization and evaluation. Probably the most scary moment of my life up to that point. And I was going on alert with Captain Saltman. And he said, Whatever you do, that that they were saying to me, the crew force was saying, Don't mess up because I'm going to desert you right there. And so I was on my best behavior. You remember that alert?

speaker-0: General? I have no recollection of that alert whatsoever. ⁓ I think that's mostly because as you remember, the first duty of the crew commander when we got to alert was to go to bed. That's right. Secure steps review. So that then later in the shift, after like midnight, you would be woken up and you finished out the the alert fully rested. Well

speaker-2: Checklist.

speaker-0: Somebody thought it was safer, I think, if I just stayed in bed. And so I've never slept that good in my life. I think I slept like eighteen hours straight and you woke me up as the new crew was coming on and ⁓ my this is awesome.

speaker-2: 'Cause I was told it's easier if. And I remember you said, Hey, I'm kinda tired, just got done with the T DY, so I'm to go and hit the rack. And we didn't talk a lot, which was fine to me because again, all that meant is exposure. And so yeah, it was safer for me for you just to sleep through the entire alert and I could stay

speaker-1: Head down.

speaker-0: Yeah. Good crew. Well you have a memory of this alert 'cause it was a really long one for you. ⁓ the alert was like an hour for me. So

speaker-2: And that's when the friendship really started. And and I think it's important because ⁓ connection, one of the four C's. Is that's where it all started. And it's funny because do you look at the friends you've got today that we still stay in contact with. Those friends we met back in, you know, missiles thirty years ago.

speaker-1: Absolutely. 'Cause you grew up together. Yeah. We were all doing that crazy thing. Again

speaker-2: the crucible. Right. Talk a little bit about the crucible and how important it was to establish connection in the in that situation. Because that's a tough, it's a tough job pulling alert. And it's comparable to what guardians are doing today in terms of pulling shifts and and doing that kind of work. So talk about how you created that connection.

speaker-0: Well, I I mean it's it's such lasting friendships, like Jennifer was just saying, it's 'cause we're all in the same boat, basically. We're all the same age. We're all brand new. None of us know what we're doing. We're all trying to figure the military out. We're all trying to figure our our responsibilities, be figure marriage out. ⁓ and so it's just this collection of, you know, twenty three, twenty four year olds trying to sort it all out and ⁓ And we thought we had it sorted out by the end of that ⁓ tour as I recall. So ⁓ yeah, it's hard to it's hard to not keep those as your closest and dearest friends when you share all that that background.

speaker-1: I know I often say that too, that it, you know, we did grow up together, but you know, we'd look around on a weekend when everybody was together and we're like, are we the adults? Are who's in charge of us? Like who is taking care of us? And I I mean I say that all the time. I'm like, we are the adults. I'm like, that can be trouble. I mean, we didn't I mean, and back then I think it was so interesting. ⁓ n you know, later in life, guardians will ask me like, you know, piece of advice or something, and a lot of times it's usually live on a base. at least one time. And back then you had to wait and we wanted to. We moved into an apartment in Great Falls because base housing's full and you know everybody's on the list. Everybody wants to live on base for that connection piece. You could walk, you know, back then Friday night, the basement club was where you went and that's where, you know, everybody got together and you wanted to be able to walk there. I think, you know, living on we waited a year, I think, a a full year to move on to base. thirty four Cedar Street.

speaker-0: One of my friends from that time frame got me a shirt later that said, Bad decisions make the best stories. And I think he was referring to that those first few

speaker-1: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think just getting together and, you know, usually you found if the that tour was like four years, you knew that you would maybe get off two Christmases, but you would be on alert for two Christmases or for Thanksgiving's the same thing. Or I I mean, we were young and didn't have any money anyway. So we were gonna spend all those holidays together. So I think, you know, I have very fond memories of, you know, making Thanksgivings and, you know, being at different houses and, you know. Playing games and ⁓ yeah, it was those are great. I mean

speaker-0: Several now.

speaker-2: It was cold. It was cold. It gets cold. It was cold.

speaker-0: The first summer we were there. So we got we got to the base ⁓ at the end of June. and I took her down to the river in Great Falls to watch the fireworks at Fourth of July and it snowed on us. It snowed on us. You had to wait till like eleven o'clock before it was dark enough up there in the northern tier. So it's like eleven o'clock at night and you're looking up watching fireworks and there's snow coming down and she was like, Where did you bring me?

speaker-1: And that is true. That's true. I'm like, I'll be in the car 'cause I didn't have a coat. I was like, I didn't it was the fourth of July. I wasn't thinking that that could be a possibility, but

speaker-2: And as you as you talk about the families that are there. So young family starts. John shows up. Yeah. Sarah shows up. So talk about how it is having young kids, you going on alert and not being able to talk really ⁓ to Jennifer about what you're doing on alert. It's all classified. And so how was that, Jennifer, growing up with two young kids and not knowing really what your husband's doing?

speaker-1: So yeah, so yeah, John did. John came ⁓ he was only there for the he came in September of ninety five and then we left summer of ninety six. You know, I I guess it's one of those things where you don't you just it that is your normal. So I didn't know what to compare it to. ⁓ I I did have we started having kids a little bit before a lot of my friends did. I mean, some of ⁓ were pretty soon after, but ⁓ I don't know, those the same thing. You just figure it out. Or or y but, you know, we've never Done this before, so how does this work?

speaker-0: This is back to the kind of the community that you create. So when I would go on alert, she had a community of people that were willing to help 'cause it's like, okay, she's got a two month old and and I'm gone for twenty four, thirty hours. ⁓ and so she I I I think you would say that you kind of rely on that network of people around you and everybody relied on each other and gave it that kind of connection community feel to it.

speaker-1: Absolutely. Yeah. But I didn't know. I I just I think it is. You just you don't know that is just your normal. So I mean that just is how it worked. And so I didn't know any other way. So I didn't know that it was good or bad. It just that was what you know what we did. So

speaker-2: And remember from a career perspective, that's when they opened the floodgates. They said, Okay, all you missile ears, we need some more discipline in space. So we're gonna open up the floodgates and allow you to transition from missiles to space. A lot of us ran through that floodgate as soon as it opened because we're excited about the potential future. And so, sir, you headed over to the NRO.

speaker-0: That's right. And in fact, it was even doubly important because in th in that same time frame we went from six missile bases to three missile bases. And so they were actively looking for places to tuck away old I C BM operators. ⁓ and and so yeah, I got an opportunity to go out to Sunnyvale, one of the old N R O ground stations, and that's really where I learned to fly satellites is is in the NRO.

speaker-2: And how is it again now you're in California?

speaker-1: I mean, it was amazing. Yeah. ⁓ don. Nope. I mean I think those I mean it's you know, the big blue cube and it was just this mysterious building.

speaker-0: More secretive than So still pulling shift. So still working, you know, midnight to six or whatever occasionally and and Jennifer's got a four year old and a two year old or a three year old and a one year old. Yeah. It was ⁓ I think we're in a thousand square foot townhouse. Yeah. Great.

speaker-2: Yeah. Now let's talk about the weapon school. Just celebrated its thirtieth year in existence. What was the impetus that got you to apply and go to the weapon school? What were you thinking?

speaker-0: Well, I mean, I think I was coming up on the end of the tour at at ⁓ in the NRO and I had ⁓ you know, good friends that had gone to weapon school, so had some ⁓ connections or people that I could ask like what what's this about? 'Cause it was so new, no one knew exactly what it was. ⁓ and I guess I felt like ⁓ it was my responsibility to figure out what I wanted to do next. I don't remember ever anybody calling saying, This is what your plan is or this is what you're doing. You were just on your own, like, what's the next job? Well, I don't know, get out there and figure it out and ⁓ and so as as I was thinking about what the next chapter was, I'd heard this this idea of going to the weapon school, so I asked some friends and they said, Yeah, you know, it's hard, it you know, it's challenging, but kind of leads down a certain weapons officer path and kind of figure out what that is. I remember calling the chief of non rated operations at the personnel center. Who happened to be a former squadron commander in missiles. And I'm like, hey, I'm thinking about going to the weapon school. What do you think? He goes, ⁓ that's a terrible idea. Like, that's that's an unproven path. You know, no one knows where that's gonna lead. And and so when I hung up with him, I'm like, that's what I'm gonna do. Like, that sounds perfect. An unproven path? How could you go wrong there? You know, so that I maybe that's a theme too. I remember every time somebody told me it wasn't It wasn't a wasn't a very clear path or you know, it's kinda hard or we're not sure exactly how this is gonna work out. That really always piqued my interest and so

speaker-2: Sure, that brings up another quality that's important, obvious obviously to the service is courage. So talk a little bit about the courage needed to just kind of step into the void and establish your own path. I mean

speaker-0: Well, I courage feels a little bit more than what that took ⁓ to to volunteer to go to the no go to Nellis, go to Las Vegas for, you know, a class. But ⁓ I I I think the idea of saying I don't need to know what, you know, the prescribed path is to success. I'm not interested in what others thought was, hey, you need to do this, then you need to do that. That that just didn't really inspire me any kind of specific way and I I never thought about a career in the military. So the idea of just taking fun jobs and challenging jobs and see where it leads was certainly more interesting to me. And so when somebody said, Hey, well this is kind of new and this is we're we're starting this up and we're trying to figure out exactly how to use space weapons officers, I'm like, I'm all in. I'm all in for that.

speaker-2: And how is that with 'cause you didn't go to Nails with them. So you had the

speaker-1: Yeah, not for school. I forget how long that it was. Six

speaker-0: Yeah, there for school and then I stayed as an instructor.

speaker-1: Then I that's when we came. I mean, once again, I you know, we you don't know what you're doing. You just like, you know, I mean nobody knows. And I think that's the thing. They want some perfect answer to make a career great or to, you know, keep a family that wants to stay active duty and continue to serve. And I there's not a really a magic answer. I think you can set yourself up, ⁓ but you have to be willing to put yourself out there. you know, make friends because you are, you're in a that cul de sac that I lived in those six months. I mean, there were dozens of kids on bikes and, you know, everybody had a thousand square feet. So you weren't, you know, you didn't want to stay inside, but it was California and it was perfect outside all the time. So, you know, those that those months went by fast for me because of that support network. But had I stayed in the house and, you know, just tried to focus and just, you know, just do kid things and keep them in. I think it would be longer. But I know that's that's a difficult thing to do as well ⁓ to put yourself out there.

speaker-0: You know, I said, Hey, we're gonna be I'm gonna be an instructor at the Wellman School. So now we have to move from, you know, Silicon Valley, ⁓ California to to Las Vegas, Nevada. And we were driving across the country in the middle of the summer, ⁓ and sh she was not very pleased about this. And I believe there's no air conditioning in the car. I was ⁓ you know, outside of kids a hundred degrees when we crossed the the Nevada state.

speaker-1: Was that the one we had no air condition? Two kids. We had water bottles, those fan water bottles of our kids. That is true. That is true. Spray I'm like, just spray each other in the back, you guys. I mean 'cause you I mean it's hot.

speaker-0: No. That was a great game. But she said, My children are gonna learn to read looking at Las Vegas billboards. She was not very happy about the prospect. Sure. But I think two years later, she was like, it was a it was an amazing assignment. And we we loved every minute of it there and the people we met and the kids and the schools they were in. And so it's one of those things where if you if you plan things out or you you think about the pros and cons before you just dive in, sometimes you can get it wrong.

speaker-1: Right.

speaker-0: There's just I think we look back and say every assignment had pros and cons, but there was always good stuff and so

speaker-1: And every one of ⁓ Yeah. And that's that's definitely true. But you have to you have to find it. Now, can I rank the places that we lived and you know, are some of them on the bottom? Sure. But were there good things about it? Absolutely. And maybe it's a friend that you made or you know, you got to travel or kids were, you know, successful at you know, at a certain location, but they're all good. I mean, 'cause it gives you something that you never would have had before.

speaker-0: The number of concerts that she dragged me to.

speaker-1: Early on when he would go to concerts. ⁓ no, I would win all those. Yeah. I did win a lot.

speaker-2: Why don't you bring concerts and music before we transition to your squadron command time? Let's talk about your other love in your life. Music. Pat. ⁓

speaker-1: Well, he's the lead singer of my favorite band, for sure. I I ⁓ gosh, how many concerts have I gone to? It probably too many to count. I I you know, I do love live music and you know, people are like, What kind of genre? I'm like, any live music is good to me. I can't do it and so even if it's not my favorite kind of music, I w appreciate live music always. Now he appreciates it more when he has a seat now. We were standing room only back then, ⁓ He w he he would rather have a seat. And then I think now even transition like, can Sarah go, our daughter? Or like can somebody else go with you or a friend? Like he's retired ish from from concert going.

speaker-0: She's she's a rabid fan and she wants to be right up front on the stage, which means you have to get there about two hours early to stand in line and this is no problem for her and I am standing in line like what is going on? That's right. Like what are we doing here?

speaker-1: Yeah. No, that was a a fun one. We went, ⁓ yeah, so I've all over the country. And it was also a fun way to meet friends. Like 'cause, you know, you would say, Okay, over the summer, where are we gonna go? And there'd be two or three of us that all lived in different places and then we would meet, you know, wherever, you know, we'd pick a city that sounded fun to also do other things. ⁓ but then always go to a concert. ⁓

speaker-2: And and you see how that all all of that, the attitude, everything helps establish the character that you all carry with you and have carried with you with you for your respective careers. Let's talk about Squadron Command, because that was a pivotal moment in space as a warfighting domain. We couldn't talk about space as a warfighting domain. So talk about that critical time in two thousand seven and then tell me about the visitor you had. Come off from Hollywood, a writer to talk about exactly what that what that What how that took place?

speaker-0: Yeah, I went ⁓ we went back to Vandenberg in ⁓ let's see, summer of two thousand five, and I was the chief of plans standing up the Joint Space Operations Center. ⁓ it was it was basically a command post ⁓ tracking space operations before that. And we really turned it into at the time what was the space air operations center, ⁓ doing all the command and control. and then I stayed on in two thousand six to become the squadron commander for the combat ops division of the of the Joint Space Ops Center and and that it w again st standing up a new organization to perform an important space function came with challenges and we didn't have the right facilities and we had to build all that out and we didn't have procedures and we had a tasking order but no plan and we had no strategy documents and we were we were creating all that from scratch and so it was an exciting time. ⁓ And I think, you know, there was enough going on in the in the space business then that it was a it was starting to get attention. ⁓ and and I so when Cameron Crowe came up from Hollywood, he was interested in the space business. I I think he had heard me speak at down in LA ⁓ at at what was the Space and Missile Center now Space Systems Command. There I was on a panel and was talking about, he said, I gotta go talk to that guy and so he came all the way up to Vandenberg one day and and spent the afternoon with us and we talked about how great Fast Times Origemont High was and and then he you know, he talked about w what does it mean to be in space operations? What is what is this job that you're doing? Like he it was it was kind of fun to try to explain to somebody who had no preconceived notions. But then I I played my trump card by by inviting him to back to the house for dinner and and Jennifer cooked dinner and we sat around and drank wine and and he told stories about Hollywood and we told stories about space and and ⁓ that was that was kind of a fun night.

speaker-1: That was super fun. I mean the kids were like, Who's this man? I mean, they were young and they're like, ⁓ we want a picture? I'm like, Sure, I guess. They were

speaker-0: Well he he was married at the time to one of the greatest guitar players of all time. ⁓ so that was

speaker-2: Nancy Wilson apart. Yeah. And so we pull out your guitar and probably

speaker-0: No, I did not always know your audience and I to not do that.

speaker-1: Yeah. Well that was an exciting thing out of the just an unexpected but once again, like being open and ⁓ ready for whatever comes and saying yes sometimes.

speaker-2: Inflexible enough to go, yeah.

speaker-1: That's all.

speaker-0: Let's do I'm bringing somebody over for dinner. All right.

speaker-1: Well and again, I think back then, you know, I was well, I was definitely nervous, but I thought, Well, what am I gonna make? You know, what am I gonna cook? And I was like, Well, what if he's you know I mean, back then it wasn't as much of the dietary restrictions and allergies and all the things and I did and I think I I don't know I d and it's here by me, maybe I texted him but or emailed him and just said, Hey, you know, are you a vegetarian or anything? And he was he was he said that like three times. He like, No one ever asked that, like, thank you so much I am not. You can, you know, cook whatever you want. ⁓ and I think we made I made Thai chicken pizza. I do remember that. So that was one it was good. It was pretty good. He used to make the dough and it was yeah, it was good. But he was yeah, he was fun.

speaker-2: January two thousand seven.

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-2: Held I and you've told the story before, but just you know, summary of kind of what happened, why that was so critical to to try to pivot away from space as a poor supporting function and space as a war fighting domain.

speaker-0: Well, you know, we had pretty good indications that the the Chinese were gonna launch some kind of anti satellite missile. ⁓ we weren't exactly sure if it was gonna be a test, what we would call a proximity test, is try to launch to a a point in space or if they were really serious about trying to to destroy a satellite. And we had again, we had some indications that they might ⁓ try to destroy one of their own, ⁓ a defunct satellite. ⁓ and so on that day we were all prepared ⁓ to make sure that if it happened that we could see it and then rapidly characterize it and make sure we understand exactly what was happening. But I think there was still a a feeling like, surely not. I mean it's it's such a irresponsible thing to blow a satellite up intentionally and spread debris all over the all over the orbits. ⁓ that I think there was still some of us that were like, ⁓ we'll we'll see. ⁓ I'm not. It's ⁓ we're gonna watch the test and we're gonna We're gonna make sure we understand exactly what they're trying to do, but you know. So I remember standing on the the operations floor, General Shelton was the the the general officer who was commanding the fourteenth Air Force at the time and he was responsible for making sure that we notified national level leadership, the Secretary of Defense at the time, that this was going on the the str ⁓ strategic commands commander ⁓ at the time to and And he was in an adjacent conference room. This is the part I I'll never forget. in an adjacent conference room to our ops floor. So I'm standing on the ops floor behind the radar the missile warning duty officers who are in contact with the radar systems that are most likely to see the attack should it unfold. and I'm gonna relay to General Shelton as to whether or not this thing has happened and whether or not there's a hit, and he's immediately gonna be on the phone with the with the the Commander of Strategic Command as well as the Secretary of Defense. I mean, this is a big deal. ⁓ and so ⁓ you know, it the event happens, the missile launches, we detect it, it goes into orbit and it hits a satellite, and the missile operator turns to me and he says, We have multiple headcount. And multiple headcount sounds like, you know, like you're at a rock concert just saying how many people are here, but you know, when one object in space becomes many objects in space, The radars call that a multiple headcount. You expect a headcount of one and you get more than that on your radar return. And I said, you know, I kind of froze for a I'm like, that this is crazy. Like this is really happening. And so I turned and out of corner I see General Shelton, and he's kind of like, Okay, like what's happening? And it's at that moment that I realize I have no hand signal through this plate glass window for a destroyed satellite. So how do I indicate to him? And so I think I did something like, you know, like that. And he was like, I don't know what that means. So I had to run outside around, you know, and I said, they destroyed satellite. And he makes the call to the the Secretary of Defense and we start characterizing all the debris that's on orbit. It was a it was definitely a pivot pivotal moment because it was clear at that point that space would forever be contested. That you couldn't just count on the sanctuary of space and that satellites were now viable targets and we were gonna have to deal with a new environment.

speaker-2: Unbelievable that day and how it changed life as we know it forever. Right. And really led to the establishment of a new service, which is the first time in sixty three years that a new service had ever s stood up.

speaker-1: So when all of that happened, you know, I I had no idea. It was just another work day. One of the times I think I heard the story like similar that he told, you know, years later. It was many, many years later. Obviously the Space Force is always gonna do things that can't be talked about. But I will say, you know, spouses so much appreciate I just within the last couple of years, you know, when we get together, we get to have threat briefs. And I cannot tell you the amount of people that say ⁓ my gosh, like I have such a greater appreciation because I understand just a little bit. So when you get buy in from a spouse going, Well, I had no idea that they did something so important or how real the threat is. So I I think that's that's a pretty huge change in not that long of a period of time because to me, whatever day that was, I I mean, he, you know, he came home just the same.

speaker-0: Another important part is that we do our operations from garrison from our bases in the United States in just classified rooms connected with antennas. And so I watched the Chinese destroy a satellite and we were talking about contested space domain and you know, what we're gonna do and how we characterize all the stuff. And now I just get in my car and I drive home and Jennifer's like, We're late for soccer practice, let's go. You know, grab the oranges, we're go on our way and you're just right back into life. And so I that always you know, kind of struck me that ⁓ we are in combat operations. W sometimes it's on the phone, sometimes on a V T C sometimes it's just looking at computer screens. But you're dealing with combat operations ⁓ and and missile warning and and intelligence collection and and all of these things and then you just have to go home and and and help your your grade school kid with math and and don't be late for soccer practice.

speaker-1: Changes that much, but math is way harder than it used to be. It is new math and it's not new anymore. Wow.

speaker-0: Always been pretty hard for me. So that I think that's unique to the space force because we don't have to deploy ⁓ to do our operations. We do it from our bases and and then it you're you're caught up in the middle of life while you're conducting all those operations. And so yeah, the fact that we can talk about it now ⁓ a little more than we did creates some resiliency. So when you go home and I say, Hey, bad day, like give me a minute here to to then there's a there's an appreciation I think for that.

speaker-2: The that's when General Goldfield, before you became two-star, when you're one star, General Goldfield says, General Salzman, fix multidomain operations for me. So summarize again that part of your career and how important it is now today to be able to describe the characteristics of multidomain operations and support supported type functions.

speaker-0: Well, I I'll give General Goldfein full credit. You know, when he was coming in as the chief of staff of the Air Force, he kind of thought through what are the what are the big things that are happening and what does the Air Force need to ad do to address the big shifts that are going on. And and the task he gave me was to sort out what we called multi domain command and control. And I and I again I give him credit for it because there's really two pieces of that. One is multi domain operations. You know, we were we were sorting out How do you integrate space? How do you integrate cyber into the traditional air, land, and sea discussions that had kind of always gone on? And that was not an uncomplicated proposition just to say, how do we properly account for these new warfighting domains? ⁓ but then he had the vision to say, well, it's not just about describing the operations. You have to be able to command and control the forces. And how do you do that? ⁓ and so he he kind of combined all that and says, Hey, Saltzman, you've got to figure out. multi domain command and control. And so that started a, you know, about a year and a half journey going to every air operations center and trying to figure out what is what are the specific details that have to be accounted for to both integrate multiple domains into coherent operations, but then provide the kind of command and control that we had always done with the air, ⁓ that other other services had done with the the land and the sea and make sure that we can properly be a part of the joint force in command and control. And that that was a fun ⁓ learning experience, I'll say.

speaker-2: And it sets you up perfectly to be the first deputy C FAC, non rated deputy CFAC, or space deputy CFAC. Talk a little bit about that experience and how that shaped where you've helped take the service today.

speaker-0: Yeah, I you know, ⁓ I was honored to be selected to go out and be the the deputy commander of Air Force's Central Command. ⁓ it was at the height of our counter ISIS operations. Afghanistan was in full swing and so the idea that, you know, as a weapons officer, being a part of air operations centers that it was kind of where we where we integrated space. But to be told that my job wasn't to just integrate space, it was to basically helped manage the air war, the space war, ⁓ across the entire Middle East. ⁓ it was really a culminating kind of event for an Air Force career. I didn't know when I got that job it was gonna be my last Air Force job. I might have actually thought about it a little differently, but so went out and and spent a year in Qatar at Al Yudid Air Base and and was the deputy C FAC. So that was it was ⁓ it w lot of job satisfaction. out there kind of seeing everything that we had pulled together from multi domain command and control and making that happen in the Middle East. And yeah, you're deployed for a year and that can be challenging. But ⁓ it was a dynamic time and I'm I'm proud of what we did over there.

speaker-2: And Jennifer, how was that for you having your husband?

speaker-1: You know, and that was the fr it was definitely the longest. I mean, they're, you know, three month, six months at a time. ⁓ it was easier due to the kids' ages. You know, we didn't have kids at home anymore. I wasn't trying to, you know, help manage other schedules and things. I mean, that would have been Sarah graduated college right before you left 'cause you got to go to that before you deployed. We were living in Northern Virginia at the time and I think I, you know, was sitting around going, Well, hold on. I don't need to stay here. Like, you know, again, I'm not doing a school system or anything else and so I decided to go home for that year, which was a gift to me. ⁓ it was just a

speaker-0: By home she means bowling.

speaker-1: Yeah. Bowling Green, Kentucky. And, you know, his mom and dad still lived there. And the time my dad was still with us. So my mom and dad lived there. And I thought, ⁓ I mean, so it was a gift to me because I got to see my dad every day and help my mom. And it was a faster year for me because I felt like I was being very helpful and useful. And again, it was precious time that I got to have, you know, with my dad. And the bonus too. Sarah after she graduated, you know, didn't know what she was gonna do. And I'm like, Well, don't you just you and Major, her dog, why don't you guys move home? ⁓ so I got to have our daughter and, you know, a bonus dog live with me for that year. So ⁓

speaker-0: I think it was a kind of a shock to the system that the space guy was going to come out and and have such an important job in in air operations. And again, I'll give two people credit, General Goldthine for as people said, Are you serious? Gonna send, you know, a space guy out to try to run the air war? And he was like, Yep, this is what we're gonna do. so I give him full credit on that. And then ⁓ General Gus Guistella. ⁓ was the C FAC. He was the three star ⁓ commander of Air Force's Central Command. And ⁓ I I I knew him 'cause he was had been the Af Space A three ⁓ before that. So I knew him but I didn't know him, know him. ⁓ and I I he was probably maybe marginally concerned 'cause he thought maybe I'll have to step up some more. And I remember when I got out to the theater and we sat down and he started talking to me and and I I I I think I convinced him everything was going to be okay because like Eight days after I got there, he went on leave. And so that was kind of the vote of confidence, like, okay, maybe he thinks I can run this while he's gone and and so I always appreciated the confidence that he gave me.

speaker-2: But this time you're a two star. Well, before we get to the three star moment, this time you're you're waiting to pin on two star. You have a promotion party at your house in Kentucky. Do you remember this? All your friends showed up. What friend showed up to your two star party in Kentucky?

speaker-0: you did you show up? I think I have a picture in our kitchen of that. Yes, right.

speaker-2: Hoops and hippie. So let's talk about the characters that egg that live there in Kentucky. Cause that's who really showed up was your childhood friends. Yeah.

speaker-1: Evidence.

speaker-0: Yeah, the the best part of those guys is they have no appreciation whatsoever for what a two star general does or you know what what kind of accomplishment that is. And that's just the way I like it. ⁓ when we go back to Kentucky, we're just, you know, two graduates of Bowling High School that that that get to reconnect with our friends there and and we pick up where we left off in the eighties. ⁓ it's it's not about major general. Saltzman, it's Chance and Jennifer and what are you doing and what's going on. And so that that's always been a kind of a sanctuary for us, ⁓ to go back ⁓ to Kentucky and just hang out and be Bowling Green High graduates.

speaker-2: And so let's transition now into after, post C FAC. Now you're heading to the Pentagon. Probably real happy

speaker-0: Well let's not let's not undersell that part because I'm in the Middle East fighting the war and while I'm away they decide to stand up a space force. Right. ⁓ that that was a shock to the system how fast that all happened. ⁓ and and to be in the Middle East when that happened, you're not in the daily conversations. You're not hearing the back and forth. And and so it was a little bit of a shock to me, like, really? Like we're gonna do this? And when did you first hear about? I think it was ⁓ I was home in October on a mid tour break and there was a news article this was after President Trump had been out and said something about maybe we need a space force and then there was all the kind of the the media blitz on what space force? What are you talking about? And I remember thinking, Well, that's interesting. ⁓ and but I know how the pace of government is and I know how this so I'm not overly concerned about you know, this is certainly not something that's gonna play out in my career. And sure enough, like three months later, there just is a space force. ⁓ and so it was you know, kind of a shock to the system that okay, what does that mean for all of us that are space people, you know, that now there's a service and and that's when General Raymond called and said, Hey, I need you to come back and be the the three, the chief operations officer at the time. ⁓ like well yeah, I mean of course, like that's this is what we have to do. But ⁓ it was it was a little bit ⁓ abrupt, I'll say. It went fast.

speaker-2: And sir, what number guardian were you then? Well

speaker-0: Well it it's a it's a I like the story, ⁓ because you know, General Raymond was obviously the first is is designated as the CSO and he hired Chief Toberman to be the Chief Master Sergeant of Space Force, so they were one and two. And then things were moving fast. In May, there were lieutenants graduating from the Air Force Academy, and so we designated eighty-six of them to directly commission into the Space Force. And so we had eighty-six second lieutenants now out there running around, and then I was number eighty nine. ⁓ and ⁓ of the first general officer to to be commissioned to cross into the into the space force. It turns out I was the eighty ninth graduate of the of the space division at the weapon school too, so

speaker-2: What weapon school graduate are you?

speaker-1: And what's the best high school year graduation?

speaker-2: Correct.

speaker-0: Karma. Absolutely.

speaker-2: So now you're the three. You now you're in the mix up.

speaker-1: Well the three, five, nine, ten, eleven. I mean like there was a lot and then those aren't the right numbers.

speaker-0: It's interesting 'cause yeah, we were mean and mean back then and and so the position I had on the on the staff was literally the two, three, four, six, seven, ten.

speaker-2: Sounds pretty close.

speaker-0: So I didn't have the five, I didn't have the eight, and I wasn't the one. Other than that, I had responsibility for all those other directors. ⁓

speaker-2: Course all the manpower just showed up.

speaker-0: Well, no, not exactly. So it was ⁓ we we pulled a lot of ⁓ people from other services, obviously heavy from the Air Force at the time. But everybody that came to the Space Force has to volunteer. You you don't nonvol people over into another service out of out of one of their services. And so we had plenty of volunteers and but that's a process to literally move somebody from one service to another. And so that took that took place over all of twenty twenty. So we yes The Space Force was established in December of twenty nineteen, but I think all of us that were there from the beginning would recognize it was twenty twenty, all through that year where we were pulling people over and actually putting them in the service and and dedicating them to take care of the Space Force.

speaker-2: And sir, can you summarize that point of your career in helping to stand up the service and b how that helped you formulate what your tenure was going to be if you were selected as a

speaker-0: Chief. Yeah, I you know, I only say this in retrospect, thinking backwards on it, 'cause I it didn't really occur to me at the time, but I had done a lot of things to establish new capability. That when I said that I was the first chief of combat plans in the Joint Space Opera Center, the second chief of combat operations in the Joint Space Operac Center that we built those processes, I really feel like, you know, I I have a lot of plank holder plaques from being the first one to establish ⁓ something. ⁓ and so I I I reflected on that in, you know, what what did we need to do ⁓ foundationally to set this organization up for success? And so as the three, I was thinking, what are the operational processes, what are the readiness processes, what are the intelligence processes, what are the things that we need to do to build the right foundation? And so I ⁓ we had to have those discussions and thoughts early in the in the ⁓ in the planning effort because we knew we had to get started and give people things to do. And It would have been wrong to assume that space in the Air Force and all of those processes and procedure would just be carried over into the Space Force. Because the way the Air Force did it ⁓ was as a subset of a much larger organization that had much larger processes and and it didn't downscale to the size we were trying to get through. So we had to really invent from from scratch a lot of those ⁓ key planning processes. And so that's what I focused on right out of the gate.

speaker-2: And how was that, Jennifer?

speaker-1: You guys have been talking about, you know, having a space force for as long as I can remember. You know, what would you do and you know, how it's it's gonna be necessary eventually. But it was definitely more of a dream thing. So to me, I was like, Well, shoot, they've been people have been talking about this at, you know, at my table for years and how they would, you know, because it is it it did change back then. I mean, unbeknownst to me at the time, but you know, it did change into something that was war fighting. And you were gonna have to it was gonna be different challenges.

speaker-0: It's like, okay, you got all these great ideas? Now you're in charge. Take care of it. Get it done. And so, you know, a little bit like the dog that catches the bumper, right? You know, it's like, okay, well now you got your own service. How are you gonna do it? So we had to put our mouth where our money was.

speaker-2: And so there's a lot of blocking and tackling that goes on there to make sure uniforms are rolled out, processes are established, flags are dispersed, pictures are changed. I mean, all of those things that the service is still kind of struggling with now in terms of just outreach and letting folks know that the service exists. So talk a little bit about that challenge and how challenging it's

speaker-0: Well full credit to General Eamon. ⁓ it y you think, well, of course you just get uniforms and you d but it's a lot of work. It's a lot of effort. There's a lot of process. There's a lot of bureaucracy. ⁓ there's a lot of naysayers, there's a lot of stakeholders. I mean, it it's a complicated process. And you can't just go, well, don't worry about flags, don't worry about a song, don't worry. Well, you can't. You you kinda the military kind of requires it. You know, and when there's a ceremony and the flags are all up, so where's the Space Force flag? Well, we don't have one. Well, that's not acceptable. And so there's just a certain tax that comes with being a service in the Department of War, and you have to pay the tax. It's not it's not up for debate. And so we have to have our own uniforms, we have to have a flag, we have to have a song, we have to have a motto, we have to you know, all those things have to happen, but they don't just appear out of nowhere. We literally have to go through a pretty detailed process to put all that in place. And so that ⁓ there was there was something about ⁓ trying to establish early legitimacy by doing all of those kind of iconic things that are just required of services. ⁓ but it took a lot of energy and lot of effort ⁓ to put in place. In fact, as as I was General Raymond pinned me on to three stars the first time he brought a general officer over, you know, and we were downstairs, I think I was getting collecting Jennifer from the front door of the Pentagon. We were walking up and ⁓ and General Raymond said, you know, if there's not a flag here By all these other flags at the entrance of the Pentagon before the ceremony today, you're not getting your third star, so just make this happen. I'm like, Yes, sir, got it. So we we just had to kind of get it done and and ⁓ and and and and just recognize that that's what it means to be a service in the in the department and we're gonna take care of all those things. But it it was quite an effort. Still is to some degree.

speaker-1: Absolutely. It's interesting. I always would love to look back because, you know, when the when the Air Force came out of the army, I was like, I wonder what that was like. Again, we have instant gratification, there's pictures and everybody's a judge and this is terrible. I you know, don't like this. It took it was like six or seven years that airmen wore army uniforms. I I mean it was a long time. And like six days after the Space Force, I felt like there, you know, it was like, well, where is it? You know, what how do you not have it yet? And I just often, you know, wonder how that was. Like, you know, all of the things of, you know, do we need a space force? The Air Force was doing fine. Well, did they say that when the air for like army flew planes? It's fine. Like, you know, was there that discussion back then of, you know, why is this a needed service? And I always think that's kind of a I don't know, an interesting thing to think about because once again, in our instant gratification and everybody's a judge, a big one. ⁓ is an interesting thing and I just wonder what that was like back then. I don't know.

speaker-2: Sir it as you look back in your tenure as a chief, you've accomplished so much and we're celebrating that soon. What is the one thing that you said th the one thing I didn't quite get across the finish line? What's that one thing you said, man, if I could have gotten that done, Ellis?

speaker-0: Such a weapons officer question. Hey, I know you've done a thousand great things, but critique yourself for a moment. And what's the one thing that you failed on that you would like to publicize for everybody? It's such a weapons officer question, so I appreciate it. ⁓ you know, I and I have said this out loud. I I I really don't have any regrets because we've we've moved as fast as we can. I think we've prioritized the actions that we need to accomplish. ⁓ I think we've focused on, like you said, the blocking and tackling. What are those foundational processes that'll be the gift that keeps on giving. We may not have all the answers, but at least we have a process that tries to discover the new answers and puts in place the the right kinds of decisions. of course there's there's many things that I wish could have gone faster. That one of the examples I usually give is, you know, our performance reports are still basically Air Force performance reports. but I think that example ⁓ talks to the need to be deliberate as well. ⁓ a guardian identity is so important. It's so important that we have our own culture, that we have our own identity as a service, that it means something specific to be a guardian. And I think, you know, a performance appraisal, a performance report is just a piece of paper, but it's it's so much more than that. It also says it's a documentation of how well you're doing your job based on values and things that we think are important. It's how you get feedback. Hey, you're not doing so well. I need you to do something better. ⁓ it's it it's your record that's gonna be evaluated for command positions and senior enlisted leader and and all of the important career functions that go on. So it's such an important document that I felt like if we rush into this, we're basically gonna take what other services have learned about performance reports and try to make them work for the Space Force, as opposed to really just slowing down. And being deliberate about what does it mean to be a guardian and how do we want to use this performance report to establish the culture we need and build a guardian identity that's so critical to the service. And so it's slower than I want, and I wished I would had been able to kind of finish it. I think we're on a good path. We're probably pretty close. ⁓ but that's an example where ⁓ slower than I wanted to go, but for all the right reasons, I think. And and I think in the end it'll be a better product because of that.

speaker-2: You're able to talk to guardians. So what's some comments that you what are some comments that you would provide to guardians?

speaker-1: the overall impression and, you know, things that I get told are extremely positive 'cause they're excited. They do understand, well, they're super, super smart and they are ready to get after whatever is thrown at them.

speaker-0: For sure. When we go out, we don't talk. We listen. Right. Right and so she's saying what they tell us. The reason we know they're smart because they're the ones talking. Like so we don't go to the field and go, This is what you should do and here's how we should behave. Like we just get into listen mode and it's amazing what they tell us.

speaker-1: Absolutely. I mean, they are excited and they do recognize that this is, you know, kind of a once in a lifetime. You are part of starting a new service. And your part is crucially important. I mean, and we need each and every one of them to make it all work. So I I mean, I think there's that recognition because it isn't, you know, just business as usual, or if something isn't going the way that it was intended on paper, we'll change it. And then they recognize that, like, hey. Someone's gonna listen and like we can change things 'cause we are not so, you know, ingrained in doing something that 'cause we've always done it this way. We don't have that yet. We're like, we're, you know, there's gonna be mistakes along the way and let's just make it better with each and every change. So I think it's the excitement. ⁓

speaker-0: When we go visit the field to figure out what's going on out there and stay in touch, you know, I when I grew up I always remember being in the audience for the all hands, you know, where everybody comes together and the commander gets up on the stage and starts telling you, here's all the things that are going on and and I and I remember thinking, Okay, you know, great. ⁓ back to work, you know. And and I just I just never felt like ⁓ me standing on a stage lecturing the troops was as as valuable to them as as as it could be. So what we always do is we get together in small groups where I think people are more likely to talk. So Jennifer sits down with spouses in in relatively small groups where she goes to the writing family writing center and they'll sit down in small groups and you get real good feedback. I would sit down with a small group of junior enlisted, a small group of CGOs, a small group of of squadron commanders, and then they're talking. And then they, you know, they're talking to each other and you're just listening. And I and I think that's been a way for us to s stay connected and figure out what the real issues are and the real challenges are. ⁓ and I I say this all the time. She's my best censor because they will guardians will tell her things that I know they would never tell me. They see the rank and they they just kinda go, ⁓ everything's perfect. Everything's fine. We're we're doing great, sir. You know, no

speaker-2: We don't need your help.

speaker-1: As far as like what do they really feel? Like what's really going on? I'm like, Okay, I can tell ya. They will. They'll they'll tell me what's going on.

speaker-2: Team Saltzman. One chapter closing, another chapter just beginning. Congratulations to both of you on a very successful career. It's been an honor for me to know you both over this last 30 plus years and to sit down and talk with you and have a candid conversation. You're not going to go far. Here's why. Because I want to present to you a token of our appreciation here at SFA, specifically in helping to stand up a conference solely dedicated to the service in the Space Force. So we expect to see you at the founders reception at the Space Power Conference because what I want to present to you is, in fact, the founders flag. Here is the founder's flag. And so, sir, all that means is we need to see you at Space Power Conference this year and a way to stay engaged. So, sir, thanks again for everything you've done, for your friendship, mentorship, and we look forward to staying connected.

speaker-0: We won't go far.

speaker-2: Promise. And for everyone who wants to continue to learn more about what the Space Force is doing, please go over to USSFA dot org and join the Space Force Association and become a member and stay engaged. Until next time, Semper Supra. Semper Supra.