Space Force Association: In nineteen forty one, more than four thousand American soldiers spread out across Louisiana and the South and spent months maneuvering against each other. There was no war yet, just movement, deception, mistakes, and a lot of arguing about what actually worked. What came out of that was the decision to organize the Army's armored divisions the way it did going into the Second World War. The exercise changed the force before the force ever fired a shot. eighty five years later, the US Space Command is preparing to do something it has never been able to do. Not simulate maneuver, actually conduct it on orbit, in its own domain, with allies operating alongside. My guest today is the officer building that exercise. Major General Sam Bull Keener is the J7 at US Space Command. He and I talked together at the Weapon School. His directorate just published the Space Warfighting Environment 2040, and the first thing that document asks for the joint force. is to train for contested space as the baseline, not the exception. That is his job description in one sentence. I'm Bill Wolf and this is Space Power.

Bill Woolf: General Keener, thanks so much for joining us here on the Space Power Podcast.

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: And absolutely, Bill. Appreciate you having me on today. it's great to see you again. So it's always good to talk to you.

Bill Woolf: Sir, we've been friends for a long time. I remember we were both instructors back at the weapon school way back when. And one of us chose a path to continue on in the military service and the other one just quit.

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: It did. I I mean I I've I've really enjoyed my time. I'm a just like you, I'm a career space officer with a couple of detours to the I C B field and but have have loved my career, loved everything I've done. you know, the the you know, really what what keeps me going are the the people I get to work with day in and day out. Military, civilian contractors, one team, working together toward common goals and objectives and that's That's what I that's what I enjoy doing and makes me ex excited to come to work today.

Bill Woolf: Well, sir, it it is interesting too. And I I don't think many people understand your career So if you don't mind, just talk a little bit about that and how it really impacts what you're doing today.

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: know, I started out as and I graduated from the University of Tennessee Air Force ROTC back in nineteen ninety-two, was commissioned in ninety-three. and I remember when I got my assignment, they said you're gonna be non-rated operations, and I was like, What's that? And they were like, I think it's air battle management, AWACS, ground controller. So that's what I thought I was gonna be until literally got my orders that said Falcon Air Force Base. Colorado Springs to work at Fourth Space Operations Squadron. I was like, what is that? And but you know, I headed off to training and actually my assignment got changed and I ended up at a ground based radar down in Robbins, Air Force Base, Georgia, my first assignment. But I was a c career space officer from the beginning. you know, I was there, I went to Turkey, About that time the space and I C BM operations merged together, the career field, so went and did a I C BM tour at F E Warren in Wyoming and then went to weapons school while I was there. And then my first assignment after weapons school was at Shaw Air Force Ba base at Air Force Central Command. And you know, at the time it was not pretty uneventful and I worked did a Did a short rotation at the CAOC for Operation Southern Watch after the first Gulf War and then, you know, everything changed in nine eleven. And suddenly CINTCOM, much like now, became the focus of the nation and what we were doing. did several tours for O OEF and OIF and then went back to be an instructor at the weapons school with you. you know, it was an that was one my favorite assignments, both from professionally and for my family too. great opportunity to teach the new space officers what was going on, what we were doing, how we were making an impact with the joint force and and an opportunity to work with, know, some of the finest space weapons instructors in the air force, which is still the case. and then while I was there made the decision to switch to the National Guard. came home to Tennessee and joined an an international guard unit that was doing a space mission, with strategic command in JFC C. Space at the time. But it was great 'cause it enabled me to stay in my hometown, raise my family, you know, back in my own in my wife and I's hometown and also continue doing what I love, serving my country and doing the space mission that that I so enjoyed, plus the opportunity, you know, to serve your community and your state. and then I just stayed. I stayed on. I went up to Alaska and did squadron command at the ground base radar in Alaska with the Alaska Air National Guard. Came back to Tennessee, went to war college, worked on the National Guard Bureau staff in the A three and A eight, came back to Tennessee for group command and then everything changed again for for me, that's when Space Force stood up. and the National Guard, much like the reserves when you were there, were looking for space experienced officers. And there weren't many of us, right, in the reserves or the guard. and and so we were standing up a National Guard Bureau Space Operations Directorate, came back for that and just kinda stayed in and eventually ended up at US Space Command as the J S J seven. and I guess German White likes what I'm doing 'cause he asked me to stay an extra year. So but this has been one of the also one been one of the great assignments. just an outstanding team, and both at my level and my leadership level. And gonna be sad to leave eventually.

Bill Woolf: Well, sir, tremendous career. And what's I think unique about your career is it's probably never gonna be replicated again. And it's because the Space Force is now rolling out deliberate career paths for folks. And talking with Chief Bentovania recently, and this is really interesting, where it only goes up to Captain Major and on the enlisted side, like E five, E six, because at some point you're gonna do you're gonna have plenty of opportunities beyond what the career pyramid can provide. And you're just an example of that. So to see if this your career path can be replicated is probably going to be something to follow as we continue on in discussions like this. So sir, thanks again for taking time out of your busy schedule to talk to us about the word of the day exercises. Most people who follow the Space Force understand the basic architecture. The Space Force organizes, trains, and equips the forces. US Spacecom employs them. But the layer in between, the joint playbooks, the war games, the training architecture, the doctrine that tells everyone how to operate together, that's yours, and it's largely invisible from the outside. Walk our listeners through what the J seven at US Space Command actually produces. If your directorate stopped existing tomorrow, what breaks?

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: Yeah, absolutely. You know, when I first when I first came on board the as the J seven, there was no J seven. There was a J three seven, run by then Major General Miller. but it was it was definitely you know, subsumed beneath the everything that the J three does at the combatant command. And General Dickinson, the commander at the time, made the decision, hey, this we need more focus on the J seven, the training and exercise piece of what the command does and decided to separate those two and and stand up an independent and separate directorate. General Claude, who's up at Space Force now, he was the one that did the initial separation, and that was about a month before my I arrived, and it was probably about a third the size of it is now. And I remember General Dickinson told me Boy, your first order of business is to establish a tier one exercise. We don't have a tier one exercise. Every combatant command has one and that's what I want you to focus on initially amongst everything else. and so that's what I did. That's what began, you know, the journey. So initially we just had an exercise division. we now have a training and education division and a war game experimentation and futures division as well. So I'll I'll walk you briefly what each of those does and how they're important to what we do here at the command. our education division, our J73, we have an academic engagement enterprise. We have partnerships with over ninety-five different universities from the service academies to the service war colleges to civilian universities, predominantly civilian universities. And we partner with them for research and experimentation initiatives. we're standing up a pilot program. for interns where we're gonna bring interns in the command, they're gonna have a security clearance and they're gonna be able to work on project. We have a the first one starting this fall, we're gonna have a intern from the University of Denver Law School who wants to learn space law and work with our JAG and then we're gonna bring someone into our J seven nine, an engineer to work from the from Denver to work on experimentation in war gaming. it's gonna be great and we're we're hoping w the plan is to expand it again to a full fledged program next year. we also do the education and training of the personnel within the command. So we stood up a program we called Comet, which has three different phases. One's for brand new individuals that come into the command, the others for people that have been here for about a year, the other for kinda like continuing training for phase three for people who've been here two or three years. it's for Civilians, military, contractors. And it kind of gives you a baseline of not only what we do in the within the domain, because obviously not everyone that works in the combatant command is a space expert, nor do they need to be. But it's important to understand what we do, what our responsibilities are. and that's also important to provide some training and education on what does a person do, a staff officer do at a combatant command? What are your duties and responsibilities? and and those are some of the things we do for the workforce at the beginning. We also partner with those universities to provide additional certification programs and training programs that they can accomplish while still doing their civilian job, but continue to further their education. And that's been a great initiative and it's continuing to grow and broaden from what we've done. We also work with the service war colleges. we are the focal point for space training within the joint force in those service schools. so we continue to coordinate with them and work with them about you know what they see, what their requirements are, what they're looking at, and how we can help broaden the scope of that conversation. So that's one aspect. then we have the exercise division, which is exactly what you think it is. They are responsible for putting on our tier one. exercise and that is a mammoth undertaking. one thing that's changed from the previous commander General Dickinson to General Whiting is, you know, General Whiting's focus is on, now that FOC was declared when he got here is getting this command ready to perform our war fighting mission. And he sees the training and exercise piece as critical to how that's gonna happen and critical to judging where we're at. that division Focuses on that exercise. We actually have started second tier one exercise that we're gonna that we do. the first one is part of the elite constellation construct that the joint staff does, where all the combatant commands execute their tier one exercises under a common scenario with a common storyline, common adversary, which is great, fosters that cross combatant command coordination. it's it's how we're gonna fight. No one combatant command fights by themselves and Operation Epic Fury is a great example of that. it also constrains us in some way. because the commander doesn't want a year to go by without a tier one, we we're doing another one probably every January, at the end of every January, and that'll be part of our battle rhythm going forward. we also do a variety of other exercises. every combatant command has exercises they all want And services too, they all want space support, space command support. and we have teams that do that. We can't do everything. We there's a prioritization involved with it. that also involves our allies, so we go out and support them, and that's that's a huge piece of what we do. the last division is our war gaming, experimentation and futures division branch. And we do a whole set of war games. There's the Apollo Insight war games that I think we're gonna talk about later that we do with our commercial partners, but we also and that's fairly new, but we we've done that in previous and then we also have an Apollo asthma series which kind of gets after some of the priorities for the commander, taking some deeper dives at some of the things that come out of exercises. We also have a very robust experimentation branch that partners with industry and academia to do some experimentation on some of these capabilities that we're looking at. long term. and then the last is our futures and that's the architect of our space war fighting environment twenty forty paper that I think we're gonna talk about it kind of compliments the Space Force's future operating environment twenty forty and Objective Force twenty forty. And I'll we'll talk about later about that about how they nest together. But you know those three divisions are kind of you know what we do at the end of the day to prepare this command. do our war fighting mission both now and in the future.

Bill Woolf: General, thanks so much for that. It obviously your directorate is doing a lot of work based on what you just provided and this the summary you just provided of everything that the team's working on. For those who still don't understand the difference, can you just for our audience highlight again the difference between the Space Force and US Space Command? Because I don't know about you, but I'm still getting asked questions about what the difference is between US Space Command or Hey, I understand the Space Force is moving its headquarters down to Alabama. So for our listeners, can you just talk a little bit about how you approach that conversation and what are the key bullets you think folks should understand?

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: Yeah, I I think you're not alone, Bill. We get a lot of those I get a lot of those questions too. And it's a continuing education process, it's easily misunderstood. US Base Command is like any other combatant command. Central command, Indopay comm, southern command, Northcom. we are a combatant command. We have a defined Not geographic area, but we have an astrographic area of responsibility. So everything a hundred kilometers above the Earth's surface to infinity is our responsibility. That is our domain. So similar to let's take CENTCOM, you know, CENTCOM doesn't have assigned forces day to day or or a great deal of assigned forces, but when they are called upon by the commander in chief to execute combat operations in their in their area of responsibility. The services are responsible for providing those forces to s the Navy to send carrier battle groups, the Air Force to send combat squadrons, air wings to support them. we are no different. We are a the combatant command, we are re we are responsible for conducting and deterring conflict in our domain. but when conflict becomes necessary, we depend on the services, the army, the navy, the marines. but in particular the Space Force. They are are one of our major combat provider or providers of combat capability for us to do our mission, to do our UCP or authorized responsibilities. so they the service Space Force they are responsible for organizing, training and equipping those forces so that they are ready to conduct operations within our domain when called upon. And that's kind of what I tell them.

Bill Woolf: Perfect. Thank you, sir. I had an opportunity to sit down with our mutual friend, General Saltzman, Chief of Space Operations, who announced the publication of the future operating environment 2040 during Space Symposium in April. And you talked about it just briefly, but can you elaborate on how US Space Command fits into that document or if there are any US Space Command responses to that vision?

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: the Space Force's future operating environment twenty forty, that describes the space domain as the service sees it, right? So increased competition, adversary capability growth. China's scale and tempo, Russia's disruptive approach, everything like that goes with that. their objective force is, you know, their look at how Space Force requirements and capabilities should look to respond to those challenges within that domain in the future. our space warfighting environment 2040 is a complementary document. meshes very well with those two documents the and they work together to represent a unified effort for the joint force, right? so think of it like this Space Forces FOE 2040 talks about the environment, the objective force defines the force and our document defines how the joint force fights and wins within that operating environment. so they work they're complementary, they're nested with each other, and they're also but they're focused on a little bit different areas. and but they are definitely key partners in what we do.

Bill Woolf: And sir, what I what I loved about the conversation with General Salzman is I asked him, I I was pretty blunt, I said, so is this a prescription? Are you prescribing what it what it is going to be in the future? And he said, No. This is an opportunity to have a discussion and dialogue around what the future operating environment could look like, what the force is that we need in the future, and how we're going to employ those forces, which is what you bring in, which is how do you employ those capabilities? So I suspect. I don't know, but I suspect that it's helping you describe some of your desired learning objectives for the exercises that you're planning today.

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: Yeah, absolutely. I you know, I we look at it in a couple of different ways. one, our Space Warfight Environment document is a North Star, right? a kind of guidepost that for the both the joint force and our command as well. And it and it's and it's a an unclassified document that kind of lays out what that im we think that environment's gonna look like. It's not trying to predict the future, because you can't do that, but it it's kind of trying to point out key opportunities, if you will, that we should look for within the future and how we're gonna respond within that domain. And you know, it's something for the joint force, the services, the combatant commands, civilian institutions, our commercial partners all together, and even our adversaries, to know that hey, we we are we are not wholly focused on the near term. We are looking long term as well. we don't have just a fight tonight focus. That is a focus, but it's not our all focus. We also wholly realize to be ready for tomorrow we gotta start preparing for today. So it's also you know a kind of a call to action. provides that forward leaning framework looking at more than just on orbit capabilities looking at space to ground, ground to space and space to space. So kind of looking within wholly within the that environment. and we see it as a way to enable our commanders' key priorities and frame out those critical partnerships with both our allies and our commercial partners too.

Bill Woolf: Yes, sir. You know, we've spoken recently on this podcast and we keep it at the center of everything we talk about, which is China's expanding counter space capabilities. The weapons, the on-orbit targeting architecture, the pace of development. The picture that's emerged is a threat environment that is real, present, and no longer requiring a lot of imagination. That changes how you train. Walk our listeners through what it actually means to prepare for conflict in a domain where the adversary has already fielded the capabilities you're training against. Not projected systems 10 years out, but real ones that exist today.

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: Yeah, absolutely. So I you know, from my standpoint on the exercise and the and the war gaming side is I look it it's changed how we do things in two ways. Just in my three short years here to you. So one way is to keep up with the pace of that kind of threat, you need a realistic thinking adversary to go against in exercises in war gaming. to do that, we have you you do that in several ways. One there's we have a red team that provides that construct or advice to the to the blue players on what is what is red thinking, what do we think red's going to do in response to our actions. And then on my side as the exercise control manager is we have a red cell with a red czar he is he and his team are hugely capable. and provide that realistic replicatable threat. The other piece of it on that side is we bring in the space aggressors to help make that training as realistic as possible. So when blue players are conducting operations on orbit, the the red cell, the red team and the and those aggressors are able to very accurately replicate the threat. and that just is immensely valuable for the training audience. both here and at the com at the other combatant commands, when we're conducting our exercise under that elite constellation umbrella. So it's all part of that. That's one piece of it. one thing we've struggled with over the years, or you know, since the beginning is a a r accurate and realistic way to model and sim what we're doing. and that's something that I've made a focus since the beginning because you cannot replicate a threat, the adversary, on a white card, especially at the speed and scope and scale of what we're facing right now. So our ability to accurately model that threat has been hugely critical. And we've you know, I when I first got here we looked at a variety of tools from academic, military institutions, you name it. There is no one size fits tool, so we've we've adopted multiple tools depending, you know, focused on what we're trying to achieve. So some of the tools we use in our war games are vastly different than what we use in our exercise. You know, what we use in our exercise has to be accessible and and part of that live virtual construct through the joint staff and the joint force. so we're kind of it's a little more restrictive but by design, right? So it has because it has to be integrated into the entire exercise program. we have a lot more freedom on the work gaming and experimentation side, so we've been able to use a lot of different tools which provide valuable training and insight on what we're doing. but those tools again have to be augmented with artificial intelligence and machine learning and large language models just to keep up with the pace of what we're doing and what the adversary is doing. Those are probably the two biggest areas that we've been working on that are challenged by you know what we're seeing in the benefit is, you know, at the end of the day our our force here, our the joint force is more prepared and better prepared for any future potential conflicts.

Bill Woolf: Sir, you bring up the point about the live virtual constructive environment. You remember back in the day, we always and you kind of alluded to it already, how how critical is it that weapon systems in the space domain are delivered with realistic training aids and simulators to actually contribute to the environment based on what is happening within the domain? I mean. General Saltzman's been hitting on this, at least from the service side, for a while. It's like, hey, could you imagine an F-22 system not being delivered with a realistic simulator so that pilots can train on on a realistic basis? How how important is that for you at the strategic level to ensure that those no-kidding injects are based on physical realities and physics-based modeling and simulation approaches? And is that a contributing factor?

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: Yeah, I mean it goes back, Bill, to the discussion on the difference between the Space Force as a service and what they do and what the Space Command does. we are not we're not taking we're not an acquisition authority, we're not taking delivery of those systems, nor nor the required and necessary training systems and suites that go along with them. But we are keenly interested in right? Because we can't accomplish our you know, UCP federally maintain mandated Title X tasks and missions without a trained force provided by the services, whether it's Space Force, the Navy Space Command, Marine Force Space Command, or the Army Space and Missile Defense Command. So we're f tireless and fierce advocates with the services not only for those particular capabilities but also for the accompanying training and simulation suites that go along with them because to us that's a that's a key part of it. If your force is not ready to go, if they're not trained, then you know, that's that is not know, that's detrimental to what we want to do and what we need to do to accomplish our mission. So not directly there, but we're or not directly part of our purview, but we're definitely advocates alongside the services to make sure that that happens. That accompanies it. Everything they acquire.

Bill Woolf: And sir, this brings up a question to your point about I we understand you're not an an acquisition authority at US Space Command. You definitely look at, you know, urgent operational needs as necessary, but we can talk about that later. How closely are folks, maybe in your shop, maybe in other directorates, tracking the Space Force's OTTI implementation plan?

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: so like you said, we're not an acquisition authority, but we want to make sure that there's there's very little daylight between us and the services as far as what capabilities they're acquiring. we're right there in it in as far as, you know, the fight. in being ready for it and we want to make sure that we're getting the capabilities we need to conduct all of our missions. So I in in my opinion, there is very little daylight between US Base Command and our service components, and especially US Space Force. I mean, we are in lockstep agreement on what capabilities we need and why and and and they are right there. We don't agree on every single thing, nor should we, because they have bigger and other responsibilities to other combatant commands than just us. But they are definitely key partners as well as the other services too, right? I'll tell you one thing that is even bigger is that the other combatant commands also recognize the importance of space and they are key partners as well with our s service components on what capabilities need to be required because they see the need and dependency f on space and space assets so they want to make sure hey we're advocating for for the same things and it's not and nothing's more powerful when you get as you know up on the hill when you've got multiple services, multiple combatant commands advocating for similar capabilities because they all understand the importance of it.

Bill Woolf: Yeah, that's probably the key, isn't it, is synchronizing those efforts such that everyone wins because everyone needs those types of capabilities.

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: Exactly.

Bill Woolf: sir, let's talk about that a little bit, the service components. So the service components are standing up. The how involved are like Space Forces South and Space Forces Indopac or Space Forces Cent in the exercises that you're developing?

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: you know, I I would say not as much on the serv service component side. they are part of our you know, dependent on what the the scenario is and what combatant command we're supporting, they are part of that conversation. They are part of the planning conferences that we conduct. but we also equally work alongside our joint integrated space support teams, our GIS teams that each combatant command has. And those are key partners with us as well. And they they are very closely integrated and work well together with the Space Force component from each of the combatant commands together. So I would just say that the Space Force Components they're they're a an you know a needed partner and we on the exercise development side and we work with them to bring on board additional augmentees like the space aggressors, right? and other space force entities that you know that are involved in our exercises in addition to what's going on within the command and command. So definitely important partners in what we do for sure.

Bill Woolf: perfect. That that sets up, I think, the next question, which is really getting into the the details of the exercises. So on March twenty-third, US Space Command held the inaugural Apollo Insight Commercial Integration War Game. Sixty-two companies, a hundred and seventy-five people classified. The scenario, weapons of mass destruction in orbit. The June event will focus on orbital maneuver warfare. After that, Proliferated Constellations and Integrated Missile Defense. Four events through the end of this year. This is something genuinely new. A classified, quarterly form where commercial operators sit alongside military planners and allied partners and work through hard problems together. Tell us what you're trying to accomplish with this series and why this form, Classified Tabletop Industry Expertise Alongside Government, is the best form.

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: Yeah, so I think it goes back to General Whiting and and a comment he routinely makes, and that is that space is a team sport. You know, no one entity, no one nation, no one company can provide all the capability, do all the things that need to be done by themselves and we and we need each other to work together. And I think that was kind of the genesis behind this commercial war gaming series that both the J seven and the G eight as the are the leads on and the J eight is our requirements branch or I'm sorry, com our requirements division and they you know, they're the ones that have a commercial work with all our commercial partners and they are great partners to work together to put this series on. And I think what's probably not captured in it as well is that not only is it commercial partners, we had academic partners there as well. as and our allies. And it was really all to it's really all to look at what are some of these hard problems we have and what are some ways that we can look at it for solutions outside of the military realm from a different perspective, from an academic perspective, from a commercial industry perspective. Maybe there's some things they're working on, capabilities they have that are directly relevant to what this problem is. Same with our allies. mean we work very closely with our allies day to day, but you know, there's always challenges on the classification side, on you know, between national interests and something like that. But in a war gaming setter, it's a lot easier to look at some of these hard problems just in a in an more of an an academic training venue that really opens up the discussion. And I think what you'll see as we go forward you said as you mentioned, it's a co it's a quarterly series. This won't be the last year where this is gonna be a continuing series we do 'cause what you know, what came out of that first game was a tremendous number of avenues to discover, discussion points that we had, things we wanna explore more, that we maybe hadn't been looking at further and that and it just showed the value of it and something we wanna keep doing and and and looking at some other ways too, right? So, you know, maneuver for the next one in June after our tier right after our tier one is over is another one. You know, we're not we as a service are not the only ones interested in dynamic space operations and orbital maneuver and orbital refueling, those kinds of things. so are commercial entities as well. And so they have a different perspective on why, different reasons on why they need those things. Same with academia. same with our allies, but It's definitely beneficial to get all those different viewpoints in a room and and hash out those hard problems together.

Bill Woolf: Sir, lessons learned and lessons observed are two different things, as as we know. And so how do you take these exercises and it sounds like you're getting after it in such a way that you continuously iterate on the problem set and learn more from the next event than you did from this current event?

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: Yeah, so that's great and you're you're back taking me back to my or you're an I's weapon school roots, right? flowing out you got the whiteboard behind you, we can flow out some problems identified and observations and lessons learned. but that's exactly what we're doing here, right? I have an outstanding lessons learned branch. and and I'll first I'll talk about that and what they do and also talk about where we're going in the future that's informed By current events and what's going on now. we have a lessons learned branch and we ha and in my directorate in the J7 under the exercise division. And we have lessons learned managers in each of the directorates and also the components. And their job is to gather those observations during Tier 1 exercises, training events, real world events like Operation Epic Fury. as well as war gaming and experimentation. gathers go those observations and then develop those critical lessons learned that change and improve how we conduct our mission both day to day and while we're preparing for future conflict. it's been hugely beneficial. We're rolling the allies into that too. We're ha we have the last several exercise and events have had allies focused objective, training objective as well, and and that also drives the lessons learned piece. But it also kind of illustrated I don't want to say an outdated, but a less flexible and less dynamic lessons learned piece. Because tor normally what you do is you have an exercise, you have an operation, you have an event, you collect the observations till that event or that exercise ends, then you spend time developing the lessons learned. then you spend time implementing those corrective action plans, a process that can take a while. going back to our earlier discussion on you know a dynamic a adversary, that kind of timeline and tempo is not you know, is is not adequate in today's environment. one thing that's come out one of the many things that has come out of opera operation Epic Fury through the joint staff. J7 and General Kane, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, is we need to be able to identify these observations, these problem areas, determine what the lesson learned is and the corrective action and implement it in a matter of days, not weeks or months or time like that. And that's where we're heading in the future, because we've definitely that this command, just like the other command commands, have taken that to heart and something we're looking at to focus on. You can't fix everything within a day or two, right? But there are some things that you can implement the change near term and in short order. And why wait until things are over and then people move on to the next crisis or event or exercise and you kinda lose the impetus on it. But let's take advantage of the focus, the energy, and the criticality of it and make those changes now. And and I think that's that is gonna be key. to making the joint force successful no matter what combatant command it is or AOR it is in the future.

Bill Woolf: Yeah, imp being able to implement change very quickly seems to be a gonna be a challenge. I mean our our opportunity to observe, orient, act, decide, and then informed such that you can start to incorporate those. I mean, that's a tremendous opportunity, especially in today's day and age as technology continues to evolve. And to your point, let's make sure those processes are up to date based on today's technology.

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: Absolutely.

Bill Woolf: Sir, during Space Symposium in April, General Whiting announced that US Space Command would be conducting a new exercise to demonstrate and execute the joint function of maneuver like you've been talking about. During his presentation, he compared General Washington's ability to use deception and maneuver during the Revolutionary War and the effect on the outcome of that conflict. So, what is US Space Command's plan and intent for Apollo maneuvers?

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: Yeah, Bill, I tell you what, I was both extremely excited to at the opportunity to lead the planning and development and execution of a of an exercise on orbit within our domain. I think other combatant commands take it for granted that you're gonna have your tier one exercise or experimentation or war game in your AOR, in your domain, but we haven't had that opportunity, right? A lot of ours is simulated. So this is the first chance. I'm equally set my stress levels up 'cause it's it is the first time. So we need to get it right, right? So you mentioned you know, the commander's remarks at the Space Symposium. One thing, you know, that was also a genesis that's of this concept that was that's worth mentioning was and something commander mentioned was the Louisiana maneuvers. So that kind of dated back to nineteen forty one, just prior to the US entry into World War Two. Over four hundred thousand US Army troops conducted a series of maneuvers and campaigns in Louisiana and across the South. And, you know, one of the key outcomes of that was the importance of joint combined mechanized operations and it informed the the you know the decision of the Army to organize armored divisions as the entry into World War Two started against their adversary. And they fought against, obviously what They knew the adversary that was coming, but the Germans as in particular, as well as the Japanese. And that was w you know, something else that General Whiting thought about as a necessary analog to what we're gonna do in orbit. so why are we doing it, right? Why is it important to do in orbit? And I I think the commander touched on it within his remarks, but it's important he sees the importance of maneuvering sometimes When we look at dynamic space operations, a lot of it is about, hey, we need to make everything refuelable, right? And then that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the ability to do things across orb multiple orbital regimes, try out new concepts, because you know, something else Jerome Whitey mentions is that particularly in the geosynchronous orbit, what are those objects that are in that orbit but static targets, right? And their ability to defend themselves not only is dependent on, having a some kind of self protection measure, you know, like just like airplanes do, but also their ability to maneuver in and around that domain. And, you know, I think that is something we are going to delve into in Apollo maneuvers. Look at some of these key capabilities, these key operational concepts that we haven't had a real chance to do. before and and it'll not only be with our service but we're also going to involve our allies as well because they have definite capabilities and keen insights that we can leverage as we look at what is going to be required on the maneuver side within our domain. And that'll help inform our discussions with the services as well.

Bill Woolf: great point, sir. Really do appreciate it. Now let's talk a little bit about Operation Olympic Defender and how it now spans nine countries. Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, New Zealand, Norway, and the United Kingdom. U.S. Space Command has publicly discussed joint on-orbit operations conducted under that framework, shared concepts of operations for space domain awareness and defensive orbital assets, and growing work on navigation, warfare, and missile warning. Training a coalition in the space domain is fundamentally different from the air or the sea. You can't put your allies in a formation and fly a joint mission. Walk us through what it actually looks like to build the interoperability that framework requires and where the hardest work is right now.

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: Yes, it's definitely a a challenge, but you know, it it's something that you know, we see as critically important to what we do. and to that end, you talked about some of the on orbit operations that the service has done with our with our allies and those are going to continue. I I think what you'll see in Apollo maneuvers and that piece of it is a continuation and a growth of what that instead of a bilateral type event it'll be multilateral with multi allies conducting operations with us on orbit as part of that polo maneuvers. what it also means is you know the how are we going to operationalize that concept of the multinational force operational olympic defender of which General Whiting is the commander of how are we going how is that gonna work? in a conflict in times of campaigning. And the only way to figure that out is during exercises, during war gaming. to that end, we are we continue to expand the role that our allies in, just like the other combatant commands do, 'cause they they have allies and s the same allies, right? that they work with day in and day out that are key partners for what they do. So we are continue to expand that construct. We are experimenting with different command and control constructs to determine what is the most effective and how how we work together, how to get those critical capabilities that they have involved in what we're doing in an integrated fashion and not a disjointed or conflicting fashion. You asked about some of the challenges. The challenges are the same ones they have been know, across our careers, and that is Communications, how do you see what C2 systems you use that you can coordinate, de-conflict and work together operationally across multiple countries, across multiple classified regimes. And it's not even about or it's not just about us with them, but also their ability to collaborate together even without us, right? So or with just one or two partners. So the communications piece of it is huge. the classification piece of it is huge. and trying to work through those classification challenges. And that's something we've been working both internally with the command and with the joint staff to operationalize that operate that multinational force operation Olympic defender. Because right now, you know, it's it's our five I it's our four eye partners, you know, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and we've additionally brought in France and Germany. and then we're There probably will be other future partners with us under this construct. So we need it's very important that we get those security challenges worked as as much as we can. There will always be things that are classified that we hold within our own sovereign structure, within our own military structure, just as they do. but they're also is are is important that we need to be able to talk about things. both operationally and intelligence freely with each other so that during campaigning and during conflict we're we are integrated partners with each other. so those are things we're continuing to work on. The work isn't done yet, but it's definitely every every exercise we do, every war game we do, every tabletop exercise, the capacity and capability is It's greater and greater. So we're we're on the right road, we're on the right path, we're continuing to push the envelope and we'll keep working.

Bill Woolf: General, the Space Force is building the systems. US Space Command is prepared to fight with them. But there's a version of ready that means the hardware works, and there's a version that means the people, the doctrine, the joint playbooks, and the partner relationships can function under the pressure of an actual conflict. As you look at where US Space Command is today, against where it needs to be, what's the honest assessment? Where has the most progress been made, and where is there still meaningful work ahead?

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: Yeah, so I'm I mean, I I can honestly say from the beginning, when I got here three years ago, we have made tremendous strides as a command and our components in our ability to do campaigning and to do operations on orbit. our our force is better trained than it was when I got here. Our ability to collaborate both with our allies and with the other combatant commands has never been greater than it was. I will tell you, you know, and this is not a this is something I think you know too, but when I when I go visit the units and see the Guardians as well as the Army space units and the Navy space capabilities that they have, as well as the and the Marines too, that they're they have never been as prepared and ready to fight as they as it has been the past. And and you know, on the on the and same for our Air Force component too. they have a key role in what we do. but, you know, to me the biggest change on the on the space side has been the stand up of the of a service dedicated to that domain. and they are keenly aware that what their biggest strength, just like the other services, is their personnel and not just the people themselves but the the fact that they need to be trained, ready, and equipped the right way to be successful in our domain. And there's still always work to be done, but there it I'm tremendously impressed. Now that being said, what do we need to work on? strictly my opinion, my boss may disagree or have different focus, but I don't think so. But we still we still have work to do integrating within the joint force to make sure we're tightly tied in. 'cause you know, we're not doing we're not we're not planning for a conflict that's wholly you know confined within our domain. We're also providing effects for the joint force on the terrestrial side as well. and it's very important that we are tightly and closely integrated with them. And we are, but there is the more repetitions we do, the more reps and sets that we do with the other With our joint force partners and the other combatant commands, the more effective we will be. And that is something we still need to work on. The classification challenges are always a challenge that make it difficult to integrate, not only with our allies, but with the joint force too, and those are things that we're working on as well. But you know, overall, in spite of you know the discussion that comes across for our adversaries, whether it's the PRC or Russia. or, you know, what's currently going on in in CENCOM with Iran, we are definitely focused on on those adversaries and what we need to do to be ready. So I you know, I I feel you know, when I look around at the way things are now, it's to me, it's light years, not to put a space command terminology in, but light years ahead of where we were when I started, for sure.

Bill Woolf: Major General Sam Keener, thanks so much for taking time out of your busy schedule as you continue to develop the exercises Space Command continues to execute to prepare the Space Force and other services to fight and win in space.

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: Thanks, Bill Man. It's a pleasure to be here. It's great to see you again. and I and I I'm been honored to be hosted on here too. You know, as a career space officer, I'm not in the service, I'm not in the space force, but I'm definitely a proponent of everything they do and a lot of my old well, not a lot, but some of my old students are still in the space force. now making the rank of general officer too, which is always gratifying to see, right? See those guys do so well and and and like I said, I'm a huge proponent of the Space Force and and I'm a huge proponent of what you and your organization do as well. I'm a Space Force Association member and it's it's 'cause I see it as a as a key advocate for what the services is is doing and that that is you know something that we're always interested in too. So both professionally personally and professionally really appreciate everything you and your team do.

Bill Woolf: Thank you, sir, for your friendship and thank you for your continued leadership in US Space Command.

Maj. Gen. Samuel Keener: Absolutely.

Space Force Association: General Keener's problem is a training problem. How do you make the fight real for the force that has to fight it? There's a second problem sitting right behind it. How do you make that fight legible to the people who decide what the force gets? Senior leaders, members of Congress, people who have to make decisions about capabilities they cannot see in a domain they have never operated in, usually described to them with slides. That's the problem the National Space Power Center was built to take on. The NSPC is an SFA effort, and its initial industry consortium just delivered its first integrated demonstration. At General Saltzman's request, they built a vignette called Space Dogfighting. It pulled orbital data, physics-based simulation, command and control software, engineering models, and immersive visualization into a single physical environment, and it turned what happens on orbit into mission consequences a decision maker can actually follow. That was the consortium's first deliverable. More industry partners and more scenarios are coming. Let me be clear about one thing. The NSPC is not the classified modeling US Space Command uses to run a Tier 1 exercise, and General Keener did not come on this show to talk about it. But it is the same fundamental problem at a different altitude. If you cannot represent the space fight honestly, then the force trains against a fiction. And the people resourcing that force decide against a fiction. One of those failures shows up in an after action report. The other one shows up in a budget. General Saltzman made the argument for years in a lot of rooms, that the hardest part of his job was helping decision makers understand what space operations actually are. The NSPC is an attempt to stop making that argument with words. Here is why this matters to us. Advocacy is easy when the subject is a program with a price tag. It is harder when the subject is a training architecture, modeling and simulation, and joint playbooks. Those things do not launch. They do not photograph well, and they are exactly what determines whether everything we advocate for works when the nation needs it. Make sure to read the Space Warfighting Environment 2040 for yourself. It is public, and it was written for you. If you want to be part of that work, join us at USSFA.org. Spacepower is produced by Ty Holliday. I'm Bill Wolf and we'll see you next time.