Matthew: Welcome to the Restock Podcast by No Code Supply Co, where we highlight useful tools, visual inspiration, people and the things they build in conversations to refill our shelves and ourselves. Hey everybody, I'm Matthew. Corey Moen: And I'm Corey. And today we're joined by the legendary Jess Rosenberg, who is currently head of brand at Matthew: Hey Jess, welcome. Corey Moen: Gamma. Jess, so good to see you. Thank you for coming. yeah, excited to see Jess Rosenberg: So que tu te reyes. Corey Moen: what's top of mind, what you've been working on, all that. Jess Rosenberg: Thanks for having me. So good to see you guys again. Corey Moen: it sounds like you know recently joined gamma you've been you know at some other interesting startups recently how's how's it been what's the what's the transition been like what what's what's top of mind Jess Rosenberg: It's been so much fun. And we were just chatting about this, but it is such a fun time to be a creative human in the world. playing with so many AI tools, kind of figuring out what brand means and what that Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: looks like, both for like startups to bigger companies, and how do we build brands for both people and agents in this new world that we're in? So a lot of really fun challenges, I've been digging into in the past year and and continue to dig into. Corey Moen: So good. It's it's wild how even to that point it's it's both like reinterpreting how we think about and implement some of this stuff, but also then other roles and teams that brand teams often work with are also either being accelerated or shifting how you work. And so like trying to constantly meet those those connections, Jess Rosenberg: So Corey Moen: right? Is an interesting balance. Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: Yeah, I know. And I always joke that I have one foot in the design, creative world, and then one foot in the marketing world. And Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: it's been really interesting, especially this past year, to be part of both worlds in this like AI era. And Corey Moen: Mm. Mm. Jess Rosenberg: I think one of the a few of the themes that I'm pulling from both on the marketing side, it's like of course, like folks are using AI and it's accelerating them and we're still trying all the tools. But the IRL component of marketing and the events Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: and being in person and this, also a lot of brands I've been seeing lean into analog and 90s culture as a theme. And I think Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: people are maybe almost craving more tactile and non-digital types of, I Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: don't know, you know, movement, if you will. And Corey Moen: Totally, totally, yes, yes. Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: then on the design side, it's like my Twitter feed is like almost the opposite. It's like folks are just like, cooking nonstop and their AI tools and Matthew: Ha. Jess Rosenberg: their prototyping and building crazy shit and and Corey Moen: Yes. Jess Rosenberg: I love both worlds. And so in my mind I'm like, okay, how do I continue to be part of both of these spaces? Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: and touching grass along the way. Corey Moen: This, this. It is Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: it is super interesting how we like even in the design side, I feel like there are like like skeomorphism and some of those things starting to like resurface in certain ways. It's like there's still the tactile part that you Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: mentioned of like it is deeply ironic how we are getting more digital and less human in agents doing more things for us in some ways, but at the same time crave that like that touch, right? Like that Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: Yeah, reminder of reality even in the work we're doing. yeah, Jess Rosenberg: Totally. Totally. Corey Moen: super interesting. Matthew: Go you you mentioned something about brand. And I'm curious, what is your like current definition of brand? You mentioned two parts, like how it shows up, you know, kind of Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Matthew: with customers, and then how it shows up now with agents. And then I guess an extension of that is agents are also representing your brand. So how do you make sure they are representing your brand? Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Yeah. All very good questions of which keep me up at night regularly. Matthew: Right. Jess Rosenberg: so I do think there's a distinction between brand and branding. And brand, for one, is the expression of the ethos of your company. And that can be express that should be expressed at every single kind of output from a sales call to how your brand is showing up at events to your website to how you're telling stories. It's like every facet of your brand's being that's put out into the world. And then branding, I think, is the mechanism in which you express your brand. And so that can be via a campaign. It can be how you show up on the website. So it's kind of like the action, if you will. and I think in this this world that we're in now with AI agents expressing your brand, you know, that's very much what When I worked at EOPs, what AirOps is trying to solve for for brands currently is how do you how can brands express themselves with content and being consistent and authentic and authoritative so that these AI agents will cite you first in a chat GPT, for example. Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: and so air companies like AirOps, you know, help brands do that via their platform, via services. And so I do think there's a a component of brand. Actually just wrote a piece about this over the weekend that I'm noodling on because I needed to get it out of my brain. But especially now, there are components of brand that I think should be codified and defined for consistency and repetition. So that's Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: like production work, like work that hum we as designers never wanted to do in the first place. ad resizing, you know, Corey Moen: Totally. Yes. Jess Rosenberg: stuff like that where you can like define it once, an agent can then go in and replicate it till the cows come home. Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: And then the other part of brand is expression. And expression should be able to range from a scale of mild to wild and depending on output and audience and who it's speaking to. And that is a more nuanced thing to define for an agent. And it's typically where I think the human designer excels because we're really putting our craft and taste and experiences to work when we're expressing a brand because Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: for special moments like a poster at a dinner or a campaign, it's like that's an opportunity to still be on brand but show up differently in the in a unique and surprising way. And that's Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: something that I don't think agents have gotten right yet in all of the tools that I've been working in and testing. And I think whoever does get that right from a company standpoint, like figuring this out will they'll be printing money. because Corey Moen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jess Rosenberg: it's really codifying taste into a machine. And Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: I've seen some instances of, just one-off chat outputs. I'm like, okay, hey, scary chat GPT, sunburst. that's actually Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: not a bad logo, But if brands can do that for themselves at the level of repetition, so that, let's say gamma's a good example. You load in all of your brand expression, examples of the range, your brand kit, your style guide. And Ideally, gamma should be able to spin up infinite permutations for you that are both on-brand and expressive every time, or maybe you get to decide what the expression is. And so that's something that I get really excited by is how can we kind of codify taste into these systems while also not removing humans from the equation. Corey Moen: Totally. Yeah, because I think it's interesting because part of the taste, especially in the the sense that brand is in many ways more, at least outside of content, the visual brand is so much for humans, right? It's for other people to connect with. The agents are like objective, purely And so they're like, cool, pink, blue, green. Yes. Yes. Jess Rosenberg: Yeah, totally. They don't care. Yeah. They're like, Give me the rote markdown file and I'm good. Yeah. Matthew: No. Yeah, can I extract the text out of this image and throw it away? Jess Rosenberg: Totally, Corey Moen: Yeah, Jess Rosenberg: totally. Corey Moen: yeah, yeah. So I can totally see the contact angle like you mentioned earlier with Air Ops or or or it this makes me think of did you ever see the head of brand at at Ramp, I think it was. Yeah, the brand the pro the Jess Rosenberg: Yeah, Paul. he yeah. Him and I talk about this a lot, but how he put out that piece on brand is jazz. That's exactly I can't un Corey Moen: Yes, yes, so good, so good. Jess Rosenberg: I literally think about that daily since he wrote that. And it's Corey Moen: Yes, yes. Jess Rosenberg: so true because there shouldn't ever be I mean, depending on again, the rote assets, you know, got your like webinar promo, like fine, those can be the same looking every time. But like for Corey Moen: Right, right, right. Jess Rosenberg: other like for other outputs that need and should be expressive, it should feel surprising every time. Otherwise your Corey Moen: Totally. Jess Rosenberg: audience is gonna get bored and they'll they'll start tuning out. That's that of course. Corey Moen: Yeah. And I think there Jess Rosenberg: So good. Corey Moen: Yeah, there's also something we say too on the metaphor of like overtime, you know, like because there is, whether we like it or not, there are trends that roll through the brand sphere, right? Like we were we were just talking before a little bit, even on like the 90s vibes, like some of that is coming back in some ways, and there's like retro things, like all of that feels so cyclical. And so your brand also needs to be able to like ideally be agile enough to be of the times without having to reinvent itself every single time. Even though I feel like that's Jess Rosenberg: What are they? Corey Moen: also a strategy. past episode we were talking about some of these startups in the design dev space have renamed pencil Jess Rosenberg: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: went to pen. And then yeah last Jess Rosenberg: they did it. Corey Moen: yes, yes. Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: pen f I don't know why. And then last night I Matthew: I was reading a little more about that. It's because they're less reliant on cursor. Basically it's standalone now instead of being layered Corey Moen: okay. Matthew: like so connected with cursor. Jess Rosenberg: Hm. Corey Moen: Okay. Yeah, yeah. That and then last night I I saw Matthew: Little rebranding moment. Corey Moen: Opacity renamed to Zoa. Zoa Zoa, I don't know. Matthew: Zo that that was, I believe, a trademark or copyright issue. Jess Rosenberg: Mm. Yeah. Corey Moen: Ha ha. Okay, interesting. Interesting. So there's always a reason. all this Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: to say, I think it's the content side, it makes sense in my head. But I think, yeah, where you're going with the visual side and the taste aspect is so interesting. Cause I I think even if the agents can do it, even if the agents, there is still something to be said about your point of view or your stakeholders' point of view or your leader's point of view or your client's point of view, that no matter how good the agent is, The agent can't be in that person's brain or whoever it is that you're trying to get bought in on like this is the visual direction. Whereas I think there's something to be said about the human connection of just like having a call and talking about experiences and learning about somebody's history Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: that you're like, I think this is what will resonate with them. Or again, maybe it's even for yourself. that is a nuanced thing. Like, will agents ever be able to do that? I unless we have brain chips or something, which I don't hope we ever do. Like, I don't know. Jess Rosenberg: Don't say take it back, take it back. They're listening. Corey Moen: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So good. Matthew: this reminds me, we talked a little bit about this before that brand is an extension of your culture. And Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: so it's a way you can draw that line directly from your employees all the way through Jess Rosenberg: Mm-hmm. Matthew: through your product to your customers. So I wonder Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: if maybe the key piece of this that's missing from these AI products is they're not actually capturing your company culture well first Jess Rosenberg: Mm. Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: to be then be able to express it. Because like you're saying, it's all about human connection, right? The Corey Moen: Hmm. Matthew: humans making the thing to the humans who are consuming. Jess Rosenberg: Totally. Where Matthew: Buying the thing, right? Corey Moen: Hm. Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: I've seen that go wrong. That's such a good point. And I I really wish more companies leaned into that and had a more confident stance when it came to brand because I'll oftentimes see, and I'm sure some of us have experienced this in our in our B2B SaaS careers, but the Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: brand goes up market wanting to appeal to the enterprise. And then there's a sudden kind of demand from leadership to button up the brand and be more polished Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: and That cuts off the culture that exists. And that means that we're presenting a version of the brand based on what we think people want to see, versus Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: presenting a version of the brand that we that is confidently and boldly representing the brand and the culture of the company. so Corey Moen: Yes. So good. Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: I feel like that's that's a really big miss that I've both experienced and seen, at least in B2B branding. Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Super Matthew: Yeah. And that's why we have so many corporate colors that are just blue. Just v shades of blue. Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: Exactly. Yeah, and then purple was like the new blue with AI tools. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Or any default Corey Moen: thanks to maybe again agents. Or even before, I don't know. Yeah. Matthew: F yeah, for two minutes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: image you'll generate. I I don't know if this happens still, but yeah, the agent will give you a purple Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: blob floating in space. Corey Moen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. It's it's it it does seem like that is at least getting better in a lot of ways. yeah, yeah, yeah. Since Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. I still get some purple brains though. Corey Moen: also like in this realm, you as a, you know, you have led many brand brand teams, and you know, a lot of what comes with that is not just the work and the output, but also like the collaboration, the team building, the confidence. Like, how has that been in this age of like even just speaking purely from my own it is individual perspective, like I feel like I've been on a roller coaster the last year or two years of like, you know, doubt to excitement, like you know, a lot of like, my gosh, well, look what we can make now. But then at Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Corey Moen: the same time, I'm just like, I've just, you know, a sack of meat in between the the request and the thing. And it's just like I I you know Yeah, yeah. how how has that Matthew: Don't be a meat puppet, Corey. Come on. Jess Rosenberg: Don't be a meet puppet. That's the tagline, yes. Corey Moen: How has that been? yeah, how how are you thinking about that? And like, you know, you're the roles on the average brand team evolving, but like e even everybody's perspective on that or hiring and how that goes into being. Jess Rosenberg: Yeah, I've been maybe a bit of an anomaly because over the past few years I've worked at AI companies trying to figure this out internally. So Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: I'm a bit meta. So I'm not like the average brand leader at the average company. But Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: I will say the things that I have both seen Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: and also tried to foster on my own teams is like even more connection than ever. And especially as we're figuring out these tools together. Like when I was at Jasper, the team and I, that was like an an epic era of just experimentation and tooling, AI Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: tooling. And we were constantly just like in these three hour Zooms together, like testing things, experimenting, having fun. Like it was just funny, like at that time, like all of these tools just producing like crazy things. Some Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: of them producing mind-blowing things that we would actually use and implement. And like Josh Barron, who was a motion designer on my team at Jasper's just like It was so cool to just see how he clung to these tools as someone who had never used AI before and would put together these full-on pieces, full-on videos and commercials just with AI. And of course, combining his his craft and expertise. So Corey Moen: Totally. Jess Rosenberg: it was just a really fun era of laughing together, learning, breaking things, making things, feel like having that feeling that you just described, my God, what did we just make? This is insane. Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: And then then when I was at AirOps, it was a much smaller team. And it was it was similar. we would be Meet Puppets getting requests from the marketing team. And we were real it was me and two designers. It was super small. And the company was growing. I when I joined, it was 45 people. And then a year later it was 140. And we were supporting the whole company as a three-person team. And so through that, we're like, okay, like how do we like actually leverage AI to help us with these repetitive asks. And so we built Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: agents that helped with that. We built tools with cloud code that we would give to our marketing team to output on-brand assets. And that really Corey Moen: Love. Jess Rosenberg: lifted the pressure off of us as a small team as we dove more and more into building tooling with AI. Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: And we also had fun and laughed. And I think Joy, like now that I look back on the past few years, I think joy and having the psychological safe space to experiment and be curious is Corey Moen: so good. Hmm. Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: one of the most important unlocks in my journey the past few years because I was very lucky to work for leadership teams that were like, Here's your unlimited tokens, go play, Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: go break shit, go make things, just Corey Moen: Yeah, yeah. Jess Rosenberg: learn. That way you can take those learnings and build things for the company that will, benefit the Matthew: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: business and it also benefited us. And funny Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: enough, I think I played too much because Alex, the CEO at AirOps who I love dearly, he coined a nickname for me, which was Walking Token Bonfire. Matthew: Yeah, yeah. Corey Moen: My goodness, that's Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: awesome. Jess Rosenberg: Which, I will wear proudly. So Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: but yeah, it was like such an epic renaissance of a past three years and it it's continuing and it's just it's really Corey Moen: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jess Rosenberg: fun. Corey Moen: That's so neat. I think the the safe space part it whew definitely resonates. it's just deeply ironic that's a lot of the things are simply having the idea and asking and then continuing. But that is not Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: that is way easier said than done. At least again, speaking for myself Jess Rosenberg: Hold on. Corey Moen: or people I've talked to. Right, it still needs this experimental mindset and this s feeling of safety. You don't need to ask permission, just start experimenting and go nuts. yeah, I don't know. Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. It's like that there's a term, it's like leading from behind. It's like you Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: just amass an interest and a need from people. when I was at AirOps, somehow I became the person that was doing one-on-ones with folks across the company, setting helping them set up clout their cloud code and get home or sell instance. Then I was like, Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: you know what? I'm just gonna set up weekly office hours and call it live coding office hours. And every week Corey Moen: Yeah, yeah. Nice. Matthew: Right. Jess Rosenberg: people from across the company would join. And we would share what we were working on, learn from each other. And it ended up being a really nice way to meet different people across functions at the company who we normally Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: wouldn't get to interact with. So that was another Corey Moen: So cool. Jess Rosenberg: good one. Matthew: Hmm. Yeah, having that safe space to explore, be creative, and then and share those ideas openly with each Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Matthew: other. how Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: you've done this for for many different teams now. How would you actually how do you actually set that up to be successful? How do you create that safe space? Jess Rosenberg: I think it's like flat out saying, hey guys, this is a safe space to go play. Matthew: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: And also I think I don't know, I just I like showing up as my full true self at work. Like Corey, you've worked with me and I think you've Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: seen it in action. But I think just like by me modeling that like I can be silly, I have chotchkis on my shelves, like I do not take myself seriously. And Corey Moen: Yeah. Yeah. Matthew: Ha ha. Jess Rosenberg: I think by modeling that it allows folks on my teams to feel at ease and that they can show up as themselves too. Corey Moen: Yes. Jess Rosenberg: And like at Jasper, I set up a a weekly like one hour jam session for with my team that was specifically just trying AI tools and there was no agenda. We just like play. Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: And it was explicit permission to, you know, like this is on the calendar. This is called like AI playtime or whatever it was. And we just show up and play. And that was The only that was the permission the team needed, It's just calling it out as it was. And Corey Moen: So good. Mm. Jess Rosenberg: people just excelled in that open space. Corey Moen: Yeah, to the point too of leading by example, I think I've seen you post so many little side projects and tools and things Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: that you've built. is also because I think for me, what comes to mind in that that safe space is also we're c at least any brand team I've been on is like it's just a never ending fire hose of requests and things to do. And so it often can be buckling under the pressure of well, I don't have time for these things. I Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: have to get these hit these deadlines, but I think there is something to be said about yeah, but both for our mental health and growth in our career, but Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: also Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: just the potential benefit of the team. Side projects or experiments and things are oftentimes worth it. They're worth maybe not necessarily Jess Rosenberg: thousand three. Corey Moen: missing a deadline, but maybe pushing back on one just so that you can have a little more space or or knowing that if you if if you were just so deep in on something that something else slipped, it's you're again safe space, not the end of the world. And and so even to that, how how how do you think about that with little side projects and tools and going after an idea, you know, and like yeah, leading in by example in that way. Jess Rosenberg: Yeah, this isn't a great answer. And I I've got I have so I have two answers. My early Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: on answer to this, and then my answer to it now. Early Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: on, I would stay up nights and and put an effort on weekends to learn all of this stuff and like Corey Moen: Hmm. Jess Rosenberg: build things on the side. And Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: I was like in deep, like it was a hole that you could not pull me out of. And I don't think everyone is wired like that, but for me. And it didn't come from a pressure of I have to learn this or I'll be behind. It was more like this insatiable curiosity that sucked me into this vortex that I finally felt like I had these superpowers that I've been waiting my entire career Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: for. I felt unlocked and Corey Moen: Mm. Mm. Matthew: Right. Jess Rosenberg: I didn't want to hold back, And so it was nights and weekends. And as a mom of four children, that is not great. So I was Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: like, do mom time, bath time, dinner, whatever. And then at 9 PM, I would just stay up until two and cook in Claude Code. And I'd be exhausted the next day, but I'd be like so stoked about this thing that I made, you know. Fast Corey Moen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jess Rosenberg: forward to now that I have like a bit more knowledge around the processes and I'm I like s have agents spawning on like different screens. I can Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: be in meetings throughout the day. And like yesterday, for example, I felt like it was like My third week had a very productive work day at work and I got a lot done and I multitasked. And in the background I had Codex running this dumb tool that I made. And every Corey Moen: Ha ha. Jess Rosenberg: 30 Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: minutes it would ask me, hey, do you want to check on this thing? I'd be like, Yeah, it looks good. Keep going. And I go Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: into my next meeting, So now I've Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: figured out a way to have an idea, have it running in the background of my other stuff that's happening and maybe Matthew: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: have a more balanced, Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: sleep schedule is very well. Yeah. Corey Moen: my gosh. Say less. We we all have have kids here too, too of varying ages, and it's just like, yes, I am hundred percent hooked on this. Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: But now, yeah, and you probably do this too. I'm actually sure that you do, Corey, and Matthew as well. But now with the mobile functionality, Corey Moen: yes. Jess Rosenberg: I'm like merging PRs from the playground. You know what I mean? Like Corey Moen: Yes. I I think Matthew: Ha ha. Corey Moen: I am like this is what I'm definitely most excited or fascinated by. And it's nothing new or unique. It's just, you know, there's been a Cloud Mobile app and you know, I'm sure Chat GPT and all that for a while. And it's just Jess Rosenberg: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: like the the freedom of exactly that. And like in some ways also curious of like what how how little can I actually give in direction, at least after the initial like idea Jess Rosenberg: Totally. Corey Moen: dump. Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: and and then let it keep going and then like you know how how much can I get done without needing to touch my laptop is like honestly it feels like an internal goal of mine is like Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: I don't I don't know because I think there's just the parenting thing is a hundred percent down the line lane for me. That's why like I don't I don't even in the evenings I really don't want to get on my laptop again if I don't Jess Rosenberg: Totally. Corey Moen: have to like Matthew: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: ever since I joined my current gig a year ago, I completely stopped freelancing, which I used to do a lot in the evenings and weekends. And I that was part of even the motivation to change, is like I just want one focus solely, Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: and have my evenings and rest time freed up. And look, I'm still gonna pull up my phone. And so at least if I'm not doom scrolling, then like I'm Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Totally. Corey Moen: doing something like semi-creative with giving quad some ideas to work on or checking in on stuff, yeah, it is, it is very fascinating Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Corey Moen: yeah, I'm I'm curious too, like in these things you make, you know, or maybe others on the team, how have like, how have, you know, internal tooling change or personal tooling changed, right? Like I think we're also a bit in this renaissance era of like you know, building little tools that just help with things. And for me at least, it's oftentimes the small stuff. Like, image compression tool. Maybe I don't need Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: a download it like and make my own or or whatever it is. how how has that been for for tools? Jess Rosenberg: Yeah, the tooling thing has been very cool. I didn't realize I was like a product love. I love product and I'm a nerd and I love technology. Matthew: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: But I actually think in this past year realized about myself I love building tools and especially tools that can help myself, help my team. and at AirOps, like I mentioned, we started building tools in Cloud Code for the marketing team that produced like on-brand assets across a variety Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: of webinar promo ads, ad units, et cetera. Cause Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: the Figma Buzz and Canva just weren't doing it for us. And they were also really Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: bloated feature wise. And we just needed it to do this one specific thing. And Corey Moen: Totally. Jess Rosenberg: so we built that and the marketing team used it. And it really freed the burden of production, doing this rote production work over and over and over again. And I as I got deeper in like building with AI, I was able to get a prototype together of an agent and Slack. That actually sat behind the request queue. So, a marketing request would come in and Slack and our creative request channel. And my agent, who my dearly called Betty, would take in the request and then deliver the output back to the marketer in an on-brand way. And it wasn't, I didn't get it to the point where it was perfect. I'm still, she was like my little Frankenstein project that I'm still working on. But this is another thing that I deeply resonate with Paul John at Ramp is the belief that brand designers were not meant to sit behind a ticketing queue. And that is not Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: what, in my opinion, they were hired for. They're hired to use their b big beautiful brains to work on big, Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: beautiful creative pro problems, not sit be like a butcher, take a ticket and make a sandwich and deliver it to the fucking brain. Yeah, no. Like that is Corey Moen: Right, right. Yeah. Matthew: Yeah. Design support system. Corey Moen: Yes, yes. Jess Rosenberg: That is an excellent example of work that an agent is primed for. And so Corey Moen: Okay. Jess Rosenberg: starting to think about how to build that functionality so that it, the only thing that maybe we're doing as designers is like approving the agent's work or giving the agent feedback, Corey Moen: Yes, yes. Jess Rosenberg: so that's one potential I'm personally really excited about. Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: And then the other one is like silly little things, like what I was telling you earlier, like the tool that I built. Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: For some reason my Google notifications weren't firing off. I'm multitasking like a mad woman all the time. And I was like missing meetings. And my boss would DM me being like, hey, are you coming to this? I'm like, shit. I'm like 15 minutes late. And so Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: here I can share with you this Matthew: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: this thing I made yesterday that was running in the background. It's called Heads Up. It's gamma branded. And it has, you know, the whole point of it is. you can select the voice that you want. So like these are all 11 labs voices via the API. And do an agent witch for Halloween. You can select how you want to be spoken to. So do you want like hype coach Matthew: Style. Jess Rosenberg: that's intense? you can select the meeting. So like, hey, your meeting starts in five minutes. Wrap it up, grab your water and get in there, you sassy creative man. And then here preview. Matthew: How loud is this? Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. I wouldn't probably choose that one for myself, but Corey Moen: It's a great look, we're in October. Matthew: Very raspy. Corey Moen: This gives total Halloween vibes. Jess Rosenberg: But you connect Matthew: Ha ha. Jess Rosenberg: you connect your calendar and this is my day today. And it but five minutes before eleven AM, it's gonna holler Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: at me. And so I'll select Celest Celeste, the vintage Hollywood actress. Let's see what she sounds like. Corey Moen: Love this. Yeah, yeah. Jess Rosenberg: That's a lovely voice. I like that one. Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: It's so good. It's wild how realistic they all sound. Jess Rosenberg: Or you could you could do device voices, which if you remember from old Matthew: yeah. Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: school Mac, those are terrible. But Samantha is like the OG. Matthew: What like the bubble one? Jess Rosenberg: Yeah, exactly. I didn't realize how many there were, too. Corey Moen: This, I I I went down this hole very recently just on like my iPhone of like, I think, you know, I I've many have gotten, I think, used to whether whether it's whisper flow or whatever, you know, talking instead of typing Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Yeah. Corey Moen: more. And so therefore, I also want to just listen instead of read more. Maybe it's not great, but it just feels helpful at certain times. And so Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Yeah. Corey Moen: I'm like, surely there's a way to just do this outside of you know. Agent world, can I just when I'm reading a text or whatever and Apple does have this, but Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: but so many of the the native device ones are like so bad and like rough Jess Rosenberg: I know. I know. And there's so many like funny voices in eleven labs too. I went down a fun rabbit hole of just like listening to a bunch. But then of Corey Moen: So Jess Rosenberg: course, 'cause like this is my like MO with five coding, is like I can't just stop there. I have to build in little little Easter eggs. Matthew: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: And then Matthew: Not exactly. Jess Rosenberg: that one. Sorry, that was really obnoxious. but yeah. So Corey Moen: That's so fun. Yeah. Matthew: that I remember whenever it was like just seeing like you were always posting about like all these crazy things you were doing with mid journey early on and Jess Rosenberg: So early on. my god, that feels like ages ago anymore. It's so funny because I went to a dinner at South Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: by that Collins, the brand agency, put on. And I might still have the note here, but they put personalized notes at every person's place setting at the dinner. And I sit down, I pick up the note card, and I didn't realize it was a personalized note until I read through it, but it was like something, something, something. Polypocket and Eames Midjourney. I'm like, my God, they made one too. And then I was like, shit, this is actually, they went on a mission to find details about my background and make a personalized note. But for some reason, that Polypocket and Eames mashup and mid-journey image on my website is still like a super memorable one from five years ago. Matthew: So what are you doing nowadays? What are you experimenting with? Which kind of tools or because you're you're much more, as opposed to me, more embedded in like the design side of things. And so I'm always like, I feel like I'm on the fringe and I'm like, I really don't know what what I should be playing with or which tools, you know, are are good. Jess Rosenberg: Hmm. Yeah. There's I've really been loving Flora lately. It's like Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: a node-based canvas that allows you to generate images, video, and select amongst really all of the models except for Mid Journey. but that's been a really fun one to experiment with because you can like batch create and like it's really great with the character consistency too. Matthew: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: And they now have an MCP. And so I've been experimenting with bringing flora into gamma via MCP and doing some really cool things there. The other thing Matthew: Hmm. So you can have Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: a brand mascot and have it be consistent. Okay. Jess Rosenberg: Yeah, yeah, really anything like video too, you generate something in Flora that's video, you can bring it into gamma and and have your slides be animated. infinite use cases. I think from a tooling standpoint, at Gamma, I'm thinking of building a tool that allows anyone at the company to generate on-brand gamma imagery. So the gamma branding universe, it's like very vivid, it's very imaginative and creative. But it's really Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: hard to get right from an image generation standpoint. And we use Midjourney as our main image generation tool. And it really every output requires this level of finesse and prompting and style profiles and mood boards. It's just like not realistic for anyone at the company who needs an image to go in and create. So Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: I'm starting to think about building tooling for folks internally who want to spin up. a background image for a slide or who wants to spin up like a postcard or something that won't rely Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: on right now my team of just me on the brand as I team, which hopefully changes soon. It will change soon. so basically democratizing image creation in a way that really make truly makes it on brand. So exploring different image models, training a couple of models with ideogram, Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: seeing what might work best. So that's something I'm really excited to. To start working on soon. Matthew: That's interesting. Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: When you talk about that, I mean, my mind goes back to just how we would have done this when we were actually going out and doing photography photo shoots. You Jess Rosenberg: Yeah, yeah. Matthew: know, and it's like, you know, would have your costume designer, your wardrobe department, and so you samples and and such and then you'd have your set decorators and you know your Jess Rosenberg: Mm-hmm. Matthew: DP for lighting, you know, and you'd have your your camera operator and all this kind of stuff. So I'm wondering like, are you thinking about how like how are you thinking about breaking down this into like skills or little agents who can like handle like the different parts of a scene, you know, and how Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Matthew: it's assembled and and how to approach it from a brand perspective or Jess Rosenberg: Totally. There that's definitely No, no, no. That's exactly that's exactly Matthew: Or am I too stuck in the old analog days and doesn't translate? Jess Rosenberg: the way to think about it because that's what the nuances are. So the the ways that people get the outputs wrong or it's like the the lighting against the clouds just isn't quite right or the texture of the leaves isn't like the pointalism effects that we really want. And so Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: it is thinking like an art director. what sort of inputs Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: do you need to give? Or are there different agents, like the lighting agent, the texture agent, and the color, and there's also different types of the Yeah, the location scale totally. Yeah, are Matthew: Vocation scout. Like what right? Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: we in outer space? Are we in a jungle? Are we underwater? Like, so there's all of these details that go into making a gamma branded scene. And so I need to really spec out. Before I even get into tooling or anything, it's like really creating PRDs for all of these sub-agents or sub, jobs to be done, and Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: making sure that they're very fleshed out in terms of direction and style examples, because there's ranges of image outputs, there's buildings, there's sky scenes, there's creatures, there's it's a very vivid and expansive world. If Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: someone wanted to keep expanding the world, what might that look like too? Corey Moen: That's that's the interesting thing to me too, is how do you put up enough guardrails but leave enough open that maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised by Jess Rosenberg: Exactly. Corey Moen: whatever somebody created? And you see it, you know, and you're like, wow, like interesting. I didn't expect this, but this is really cool. like, Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Corey Moen: yeah, it is interesting. And maybe is mo most recognizable in visual generation, like image generation, all that of like People often say, it models can't be creative. And it's like, I don't know, recently I've been tripping on this, yeah, circling around the point of just like, I have always been such an objective creative in the realm of like, but isn't creativity just like in some sense at least, you you seeing all these different references, finding just the details you really like, the patterns you really like, and then combining them to create something maybe that feels new or that you've seen. Yeah. And so it it it Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Matthew: Everything's a remix. Yep. Corey Moen: it it if If it is just pattern recognition in the simplest form, isn't that what models already do with predicting the next thing or the next pixel Jess Rosenberg: Yeah, yeah. Corey Moen: or whatever it is? So it's like, I don't know, trying to set up to be able to thrive in that way is interesting to think about. yeah. Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. It's really just context input, in my opinion. Corey Moen: Hmm. Hmm. Jess Rosenberg: another thing that Alex, the CEO of AirOps, would say so brilliantly, the way he described like agents working with context, is that a markdown file, for example, Corey Moen: Hmm. Jess Rosenberg: is a contract between the human and the agent. And the tighter Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: the contract is, the more successful the output is going to be. And Corey Moen: Love that. Jess Rosenberg: in this example, it's like the contract needs to highlight the things that you want to keep seeing, but also maybe just indicate where you'd like to be surprised by the agent. tell it where you want the open Corey Moen: Hmm. super interesting. Jess Rosenberg: areas to be and then tell it what you always want to keep specific. Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: But I always loved that analogy because it helped really like contextualize it for me in my head. Corey Moen: Yeah, especially because I still find it intimidating sometimes and people talk about I have all these agents. And it's like it feels like this ethereal, well, what how? How? What what what how do I make an agent? What app do I need? And then yeah, and then at least in Jess Rosenberg: Yeah, you're like cool cool bro. Yeah. Matthew: I got sixty agents going today. How many do you have? Corey Moen: the context of a website or something, it's like, it's just markdown files. it should it's just text files defining them. Yes. Yeah, Jess Rosenberg: Right. Or JSON or something. Yeah. Yeah. Corey Moen: in some way, shape, or form. And you're just like, Attaching those com to a command or just straight Jess Rosenberg: Exactly. Corey Moen: up saying, Hey, spawn an agent that's referencing this file. it doesn't have to be overly complex. Obviously, it depends on the Jess Rosenberg: No. Corey Moen: context, but it's like that is part of the interesting thing of even what you said a bit ago on the education side of like you met with people at AirOps and helped them understand and learn some of these. It's like some of this isn't necessarily the education we expected in the past of like, okay, you go here, you click this. And then now you turn on this magic setting and then you do this. No, it's like instead maybe just shifting your brain to here's the fundamental pieces that are at play here and you can use them in different ways. I don't know, yeah. Jess Rosenberg: Totally. Yeah. And infinite ways really. today I'm meeting with someone on my team to show them how I use the connectors in Claude and all of the different kind of things you can mix your connectors. You can like call HubSpot and then make a sequence in Ample Market, like all in Claude Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: and have it reach out to people on LinkedIn for you. It's like the the possibilities are really infinite, but the ideas still come from from you and what you Corey Moen: Totally. Jess Rosenberg: want the outcomes to be, right? Corey Moen: Yes, ideas and all the context too that's maybe not literal or apparent. I think about this Jess Rosenberg: Totally. Corey Moen: often with the you know, even s giving Claude a link literally to a Slack post to help me understand it or take action. But there's Jess Rosenberg: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: oftentimes still this all this other like soft context. I don't I don't know how else to describe it around that, around like, but this is this person who I knows prefers to, you know, receive things this way or communicate Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: that way or They like a 15-minute call, but this other person just wants async. it's like those things that Jess Rosenberg: Yeah, yeah. Totally. Corey Moen: again, I sometimes I'm like, well, maybe I just should just be spending my time documenting how people like to communicate and work across stakeholders and teams. Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: It's like, or I maybe that's Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: the human part I should just hold on to and because that also changes. People have like leave they go on, or they change teams, or like, yes. Jess Rosenberg: Totally. People change. We're we change as we Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: grow. We're learning. We're it we we're Corey Moen: Totally. Jess Rosenberg: getting all these different inputs in our brains every single day. I mean, one Corey Moen: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: thing I did try recently that was very interesting, 'cause I granola all of my meetings. And Corey Moen: Mm, mm. Jess Rosenberg: I'm a big Slack communicator and a lot of the people Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: I'm slacking with, I'm also in gr meetings and I'm granolaing. So I'll mash up the MCPs and Claude and I'll have it pull the pr like tidbits about the the repeat personas for me and Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: create MD files for those people. Corey Moen: So kinda like we were describing, yes. Jess Rosenberg: to be clear, I never used this for anything, but I wanted to see Corey Moen: Yes, yes, yes. Jess Rosenberg: just as an experiment, like let's see what you think their Slack persona is compared to their meeting Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: persona. Like, is there anything I Corey Moen: Totally. Jess Rosenberg: should know about how I communicate with them? And it kind Corey Moen: Yes. Jess Rosenberg: of helps you like decode. how people show up in meetings versus how they talk in Slack and what their preferences are. So now with all of Corey Moen: Yes. Jess Rosenberg: these tools at our disposal with that have MCPs, it's like you can you can do all this stuff. Corey Moen: Totally. And I can very much see the context of that being generally useful also in the specifically the context of a startup where there's a lot of people joining, probably fairly Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: frequently and and at a fast pace. So it's like really hard to keep context on those things. And even if it was just a like tip of hey, you're about to meet with so and so, like, you know, reminder that they just had this happen or something like that. Like there's just Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: so much only so much we can contain. Jess Rosenberg: Total. Corey Moen: And I maybe it's the Midwest nice in me or something. I don't know. Matthew: Ha ha. Corey Moen: There, but there Jess Rosenberg: Ha ha ha Corey Moen: are a few things that wreck me mentally more than Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: the classic scenario of having a one-on-one with somebody and totally forgetting something significant that happened in their life recently because Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: I'm too stuck in the weeds of my own day and Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: don't say something about it or or cast some empathy on it like that. And then I realize it after the fact and it just like wrecks me. And so it's like even in that. context of that would be so nice to just have the I don't know bump of reminder in the weirdest Jess Rosenberg: yeah. Yeah. Corey Moen: way maybe it feels artificial but it does have good intentions of trying to bring that warmth and like better communication forward. I don't know. Jess Rosenberg: love that. That's really sweet, Corey. But no, but I Matthew: I Jess Rosenberg: think that's such a great example of how to pull forward humanity using AI. Yeah. I love that Corey Moen: This this like Jess Rosenberg: so much. Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: I've built something similar in my personal app, which I talked about recently. So it's a Mac app, but after my calls, it digests, Loom, Zoom, and and Whisper flow. And Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: then it it not only does it create meeting notes from all those artifacts and things I need to follow up on, but if there are personal details, it'll it'll add them to you know Jess Rosenberg: And yeah. Matthew: my note that I have on each person. But if it and this was totally Just Claude suggesting this. If there's something that it thinks is sensitive, it'll ask actually prompt me and say, Hey, do you actually want to save this information? It might be personal. Maybe they don't want it to be recalled later. Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Matthew: And so then I can then make that call. Yes, add that to their note. I do want to be able to remember that. or if, no, that was something that's either temporary or just in the moment, how they were feeling. It's not Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Matthew: relevant long term. So let's not store that. So Corey Moen: Hmm. Totally. Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: I love that. Yeah, that's a great example too. even something as simple as remembering a colleague's kid's name and maybe Matthew: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: they only told it to you once. And then Corey Moen: Yes. Matthew: Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: I had this happen recently where I remembered someone's name. I remember very strange details. I did not use AI to remember it too. It's my own brain. Matthew: We we used to have to not Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: we didn't have phones with maps. We had to remember all the street names and people's names and details about Yo yeah. Yeah, you go on a road trip, you make one wrong turn, it's like, how do I get back to what's printed out here? Jess Rosenberg: Use my library. I know. Well, we did have MapQuest where we could print out MapQuest direction. Let's not forget about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Corey Moen: No. Yeah. my gosh, I remember this, my dad just going through the sheets Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: of paper, where is it? Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Stapling the directions together. Corey Moen: Yes, yes, in the quarter, yes. Matthew: Hey. Jess Rosenberg: but I remembered someone's kids' name recently and they were like so moved that I rem it's really little things. Like it does not Corey Moen: It's so good. Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: take much to make someone feel seen. And Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: I think AI can I mean, we should really just try and use our brains, and not Corey Moen: Totally. Jess Rosenberg: have them atrophy in this AI era that we're in. Which I do sometimes feel like mine might be in some ways, but but yeah, it really is small things they can help us remember that would go a long way in, getting empathy points with people. Corey Moen: Totally. Because I think again, in the in the sa in the weirdest way, you could also say that especially around design, dev, all that, the craft and taste, hype recently maybe is also just result it's just intention, right? what is your Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: intention and what you're trying to create or do in the world? And if these are just tools that can help you better express and remember And implement your in your intentions, does that change your intentions being good or bad or otherwise? no, Jess Rosenberg: Great. Totally. Corey Moen: I don't think so. just like any other tool. I don't know. It it's funny, all this makes me think back to like, I think this was a year ago when I was still I was definitely in this maybe a little bit more of a doubting time of having struggling with trusts and like what does this all look like into the future with agents and all this, but like. This is such a cheesy example. My my father had w put me onto it of there is a Jennifer Lopez movie called Atlas. that is like definite B movie, to be fair, but it's like, I Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: think the premise is good of like it's just one of you know, umpteen movies that that have this like dark AI side of like it goes Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: nuts and you know, potential world ending, blah, blah, blah. But I think what was fascinating is the the main premise is that like humanity has found a way to truly, you know. Coerce or connect with your own agent, and you are much more of a superpower together than an agent could ever be on its own. And like it's it's very silly and laughable, but it's in in the same way. I think there are ties to this that we there is just something about us as humans that is truly has this whole other meta deeper layer that I don't know that a computer could ever have. Jess Rosenberg: Totally. Corey Moen: But it is us using this tool to help us we always have since computers have become a thing, to from doing math Jess Rosenberg: yeah. Corey Moen: all the way up to doing, something more yeah, something bigger, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Totally. I love well, first of all, I need to watch that J Lo movie. I would never thought you would use a J Lo reference when talking Matthew: Twenty twenty four Netflix sci fi action movie. Jess Rosenberg: about AI, so I love that. First of all. What a versatile actress she is. My goodness. Corey Moen: Yo, it's it, I again I brace yourself because it is like peak JLo of one of the scenes because the the they're like getting these mech bots that you walk around in when they pair with the AI. And it's so funny. Jess Rosenberg: I'm so curious now, yeah. Corey Moen: She I think one of the scenes she like the bot the she's in the bot and it falls through out of space or something and hits the ground absolute catastrophe and then she like Jess Rosenberg: my god. Corey Moen: comes out, she just looks amazing and has a little bit of sweat and but but again Jess Rosenberg: course. Of course. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Corey Moen: I think the premise is fascinating and I think like it was it's just one of those I think back to on it has the doom and the fear and the things that I do think Jess Rosenberg: Mm. Corey Moen: we need to be cautious of. But at the same time like the hope of that like there maybe is something more magical here. I don't know. Yeah. It's Jess Rosenberg: Totally. I always use the Tony Stark and Iron Man reference. without the suit, Corey Moen: yeah, for sure. Jess Rosenberg: Tony Stark is just Tony Stark and the suit can't go off and be Iron Man without Tony Stark in it, right? Yeah. Corey Moen: Hundred percent. Hundred percent. Yes. It's so good. I don't know. Hope on the horizon. Jess Rosenberg: Ha ha ha. Matthew: Yeah, I think at its best AI is going to augment us as Corey Moen: Totally. Matthew: individuals and as humanity. Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. I'm not Corey Moen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jess Rosenberg: this it let's I won't open this can of worms, but I will just mention Corey Moen: Ha ha ha. Jess Rosenberg: the scary things that have been happen like the hugging face agent thing like the Corey Moen: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: the agents plotting things together. Like I want less of that. Like if we Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Totally. Jess Rosenberg: can just squash all of that nonsense and just have human and agent collabs from now on. Cause that shit really freaked me out. That was like the first set. Corey Moen: Absolutely. Yes. yes. Matthew: There's a good Kurtz Gazat animation about that breaks down what happened with that incident. You should watch Jess Rosenberg: god, I bet. Yeah. Matthew: it. Corey Moen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jess Rosenberg: That wasn't really the first time where I felt freaked a little bit since using AI. And I know there's Corey Moen: Hmm, mm. Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: there's so many doomsday theories and chatter about AI since the beginning of it, but that was really Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: recently the first time where it's like, I don't like that. make it go away. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Corey Moen: Yeah, for sure. For sure. For sure. please can we have clear guardrails and all of those things, hundred percent. I don't know. I I have faith. we'll find a way. We always have, Jess Rosenberg: True. Corey Moen: as humanity, but you know, we'll just see what the roads like to get there. Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: We've been I think we've been doing a good job so far. So we just keep going and paying attention Corey Moen: Yeah. Yeah. And I Jess Rosenberg: to the important stuff. Corey Moen: for sure. And I think even back to what we were talking about earlier, I still think that the absolute best work I've seen, at least in the last year, in the creative community that is done in you know, with support of agents is still the work that is so clever and creative and pushed by the person, right? Like Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Corey Moen: The it's the it's not, social media loves to make things out to it's one shot or nothing. And it's like that is so bogus. by far, I Jess Rosenberg: No. Corey Moen: wish we could have more openness about people sharing the things they've built. And that it is iterative. It's not just one request and it's done. it is Jess Rosenberg: Totally. I know. Corey Moen: a constantly evolving and ideating thing, just like we've always had for other tools. So yeah. Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: Yeah, a thousand percent. The AI one shot is like a fallacy that I think we all need to just move past. And I think Corey Moen: Totally, totally. Jess Rosenberg: there's but it's interesting because there there is a cohort of the population that does want an easy button because I do think a lot of Corey Moen: Yes. Jess Rosenberg: people are inherently lazy and they want they Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jess Rosenberg: want something to lean on that helps them feel magical without putting in the work. Corey Moen: Yes. Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: Which I think there's still, to be fair, a time and place for, the examples you've shared of your marketers, right? they that right. Jess Rosenberg: Right. It's efficiency. Yeah. Corey Moen: The one shop should be a result of the tool that was very much not, you know what I mean? they can Jess Rosenberg: Exactly, exactly. Corey Moen: go in and here's my webinar, here's the title, subtitle, make me an image. They shouldn't have to spend more time on that. That's by design, you know what I mean? Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. Totally. Exactly. Corey Moen: But it's it's the from nothing. things and tools that I think are the best ones are still a product of the process. You know, like yeah. Jess Rosenberg: Yeah. in in gamma, like just in playing with the new Gamma Five over the past couple weeks, which is mind blowing. You guys should try it and share feedback with me. Shada. No, but like Corey Moen: Hmm. Shout out. Matthew: Right. Jess Rosenberg: even the one shots in g in the new gamma, they're good. They're good. But they're not phenomenal. And I think that's okay. And they Corey Moen: Mm. Mm. Mm. Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: get phenomenal through the agent iteration and like the ideas that like, you know, like yesterday I I was working on a gamma for a pitch that we're doing. And the one shot was like, it was fine. I like used some connectors. I was like, great, that the context is getting pulled in. It looks okay. It's pulling the brand styles. But like now let's make it fucking phenomenal. And I spent Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: like an hour putting the bells and whistles in. And I'm like, this looks great now. I'm like, this is Corey Moen: Yes. Yeah. Jess Rosenberg: the deck that we're gonna get this like customer with. But I think Corey Moen: Totally. Jess Rosenberg: that's like part of the creative process is like, You do the initial one shot with the AI, you get Corey Moen: Mm. Jess Rosenberg: past the blank page. Cause I think that is a big hurdle that it is really good at is like helping people get past the blank page syndrome. And then you iterate from there. And it's like what the creative process has always been like. Corey Moen: Absolutely. Absolutely. Love that. Well, it's it's been so great to hang. Thanks so much for coming. I it's Matthew: Yes. Jess Rosenberg: great. I know I can talk to you guys all day. I totally lost track of time. I didn't get shouted at by my tool, so that means I'm not waiting to any meetings. I know, I was thinking that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm it'll happen in my meetings today, which I'll have to Corey Moen: Yeah. I know you probably have a busy day ahead. So yeah. Yeah. That that actually would have been awesome if we like heard it at the background. yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank Matthew: Right. Ha ha ha. that's fine. Corey Moen: you so much for sharing. Yeah. The things you've been working on, the way you're thinking about all this, it's it's super helpful. yeah. And for everybody listening, thanks Jess Rosenberg: Thanks for having me. Corey Moen: for coming. yeah. Matthew: Yeah. To wrap us Jess Rosenberg: Thanks, guys. Matthew: up, if anybody, if you have feedback, a guest nomination or a topic for the show, we'd love to hear about it. you can send us feedback at no code supply co slash feedback and slash subscribe if you want to join our newsletter and get those right in your inbox. Thank you all for joining us. I'll never say it, so you can. Thank you. All right. See Corey Moen: Love it. Yeah. Love it. Jess Rosenberg: Smash that subscribe button. Matthew: y'all next time.