Matthew: Welcome to the Restock Podcast by No Code Supply Co., where we highlight the people, the things they build, useful tools, visual inspiration, and overall just conversations to refill our shelves and ourselves. Corey Moen: What's up y'all, I'm Corey. Matthew: I'm I'm doing well, doing well. Yeah. Yeah, a little summer travel Corey Moen: How's going, man? You know, hanging in, building stuff, building the digital world. Matthew: re a little refresh. Corey Moen: That's right, you were just in Costa Rica, right? Yeah, yeah. dude, I didn't even think about yeah, you're back. Welcome Matthew: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yep. I'm back. Corey Moen: back to the rain and the humidity. nice. For sure. Matthew: No rain here where I am, but definitely hot and humid for sure. So I enjoyed our our time kind of in the volcanic mountains and we got spent a couple of days in a cabin there in the rainforest. Corey Moen: So cool. Matthew: Yeah, it's nice. Corey Moen: Dude. Especially, yeah. man. So cool. So cool. Gotta Matthew: Ha ha. Corey Moen: enjoy, you know, and touch grass, right? Especially with everything that's happening in the world. Literally, yes, this. Matthew: Literally, yes, literally. Corey Moen: I we yeah, we also had a we had a little shutdown and a little break with me and the fam a couple weeks ago and just got away and did some water parks and stuff like that. And it was just so great Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: to not look at a screen, to be honest. Deep, deep Matthew: Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Corey Moen: Deep irony. so Matthew: Yep. Corey Moen: yeah. I like I said to you, I today I was I yeah, l was was really on top of the mind of I don't know, CMSs and content and managing words on the web and all of that. And I can yeah, start sharing my screen and kind of brain dump get us going on some of this. Matthew: You mean you were thinking about content and how do you manage them and how do you Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: how is there a system like a content management system? Yes. What Corey Moen: yes, exactly this. And on our wonderful no code supply co. even just recently curating some items that all fall in some of these buckets of capturing ideas. It's funny too. This is definitely not down this the CMS route. even this one was what I saw the other day. that's just like it's called Rose, and it's Matthew: seen this. Corey Moen: literally like a minimal task, you know, to do app. And what's so funny to me about stuff like this. Is like, isn't this like the classic engineering test 101 is like build a to-do app. and like so in so many Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: ways, like the most basic product you could ever think of. But like I think what was fascinating about this is how simple it is. And I thought there was like, isn't there a yeah, enjoy the demo? this little demo, and there's Matthew: Nice. Enjoy the demo. Yeah. Corey Moen: like all these like sound effects that might not be coming through. and then like, Matthew: Nice. Corey Moen: you know, when you check something off, it like does a wait, done. Can't here we go. Complete. It like disappeared. So there's just all this little polish. And and like Matthew: Late. Snap and it's gone. Corey Moen: obviously again, maybe this isn't managed to site, but I I think it's still on the brain about like we're in this era now where we can build so much so much more easily than ever before. And in the ironic way, now people almost care even more about some of the the polish and And and you know, effects and things that we feel and hopefully enjoy in the tools we're using every day. and so I don't know, that was just a recent one. And then definitely in the webflow community, you know, vibes, Sir King of the Throne, Timothy Ricks Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: shipping some updates recently. Like we curated Stacky here, which is his like astro web builder tool almost like a webflow clone but a little more basic and like really really really heavily targeted at like kind of the Lumos and and component for stuff and then literally just yesterday he posted another video kind of following up about his CSS and component framework called Lumos Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: now being available is like a very early pre you know production version almost of it for Astro. Matthew: Yeah, early preview. Corey Moen: Yeah. And you know, obviously some of this goes beyond just like a CMS side and and managing words and a site and all that. But a lot of it is just super inspir inspiring, but also at the same time, like I am still caught often in this spiral in my brain of like how we think about all of this. And like even a relevant topic to this was shout out Kyle Lambert, who's a product designer at Webflow. Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: love Kyle. And I saw him post on social the other day about this this topic of old world. Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: and and actually I think I could probably even find the blog post on his personal site. Is like, and you know, are we s quickly slipping back to the ways of old world and how we would always build sites and drag things around and click things on a canvas and all that? I don't know. Like I I can totally see that perspective in some regards, but then I also see stuff like this with Tim and I see through the actual things where he's showing how powerful some of these, I could be playing this so something more interesting to look at, how powerful some of these, Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: you know, component frameworks are and things like that with Astro. But again, so much of this you can do in Webflow. The difference I think is like under the hood, if this is all just raw code and you know, and agents can be really, really effective and efficient with it. and then even that lettering back, you know, something else I guess we could talk about to the point of our beloved webflow is the the blog post recently. where is it? this one getting to the source. And I think under the hood, this has a lot of the general same sentiment, right? That like code is a source of truth, and that inspiration that even drove Webflow from the beginning and all of that, all this to say, A lot of this has just been I've yeah, just been pondering lately. And it's like finding this balance between when we can still get in. And I genuinely think I don't want to ask to ask an agent to change every single little thing on my site. I think that sounds actually quite annoying. I Matthew: Okay. Corey Moen: also I would love to still be able to just go find something, change it, publish, done. that workflow, it's I just think is is yeah, a lot more evergreen. And then all the other bulk edit stuff is where maybe it's like a little more useful. All this to say, the other thing in all of this that was interesting, I should have had this pulled up, is how he in Stacky shows this little kind of like mi mini CMS area. And I say mini because from my understanding, under the hood is like this is an aspect of Astro called is it thank you? Is Matthew: Content variables. Isn't it? Corey Moen: that it? Yeah, yeah. And and so you know you're just storing, is it markdown or JSON files or something just in in your repo alongside all the other code? And his the app he's building is just creating a visual way to surface that. Matthew: Surfacing that, yeah. Corey Moen: Totally. And so I just thought that was really interesting and like even got me thinking back to the whole like if you remember cursor back in like November posted about like moving off of sanity. And on the basically Matthew: Yep. Corey Moen: this concept of just like they don't use a CMS anymore, or mainly just they don't store content in a database is I think the simplest way to think about it. Instead, they just store them in files in the repo, and any changes still go through PRs and all of that. but the key being that like their marketing team doesn't necessarily have to touch GitHub, they can just use cursor in their case to abstract away GitHub and they're just you know asking for a change, reviewing it. Clicking a button to go, you know, get it merged or deployed or whatever. and that this was kind of following that same mental model in some ways, but just like built into a UI. you can see on this like newer version too of where you show Numus and in the top right corner, there's this little like, you know, again, main. I'm assuming, yeah, you can Matthew: Ranch. Yeah. Corey Moen: kick create branches and like especially if you're using Vercell or whatever, where anything that gets merged to main automatically gets deployed, like. Creating that same exact workflow, but again, abstract in this case in a in a in a custom, you know, app UI was really interesting. So I don't know, it's I don't know what the perfect answer is. I just think this has been top of mind for me. I'm curious, yeah, how you have been thinking about this, other things you've been seeing out there in the industry. Matthew: so if we go back, like one thing with no code and web flow, the product that's there today, it's you know, and what that article was Code of Source of the Truth is referring to is that for the past decade plus we've needed this extra layer of abstraction for Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: for to extend the Amount of the population that can actually work with code, right? Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: Now that agents can do that work directly with the code, we don't need that abstraction layer anymore, right? But Corey Moen: Mm. Totally. Matthew: the I mean, going back to CMS, well, is CMS going to be needed? So if we just like think of the definition there, it's like the management of data. And I think like what you're showing there with Stacky is that actually the surface area of the kind of content that needs to be managed and like content variables, through all these ways you use content throughout your site, it's actually gonna grow. And like, but it's all it's all data at the end of the day. So data management system, content management system, you know, I mean Corey Moen: Totally. Totally. Matthew: It's all I mean your CSS variables that that's that's a collection as well. It's like it's all just these collections of data, you know. The things that CMS has helped us for the past however many years, decades, since they kind of emerged is it gives you templates, ways to like spin up fast and keep things consistent. Corey Moen: Yeah, I love that. Matthew: So, you know, the the struggle, one of the struggles with, you know, just doing static site generation is, you know, you have to have you you still have to s have some kind of page Corey Moen: Consistency. Matthew: that consistency thing you're duplicating and you know, are you just gonna tell the agent to hey, always whenever that new page is added to this folder or whatever, you know, make sure it's consistent in the metadata and the properties it has, you know, how do you how do you keep that consistent? So that's one challenge. Corey Moen: What are they? Matthew: Then so there's actually So sanity responded back to Corey Moen: Yes. yes. Matthew: when cursor moved away, I'll just read this. it said you should never need to build build a CMS because what CMS Corey Moen: Hmm. Yeah. Matthew: actually handles is asset management permissions, localization, content modeling, which is what I was just talking about, previews, scheduling, all that stuff doesn't disappear when you stop using a CMS. You're just using a different tool to do it, you know. Corey Moen: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Matthew: So and then somebody else, Dry's Beethart, said it this way: AI isn't killing the CMS, it's unbundling the creation from the control. Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: you know, it's really about it's like where are we putting the complexity and kind of the workload, you know, for managing all of this. Corey Moen: Totally. Like I even this headline's so funny. What Lee actually built, spoiler, a CMS. Built another CMS different shape. Yeah, totally, Matthew: Exactly. It it's it's a custom CMS. Yeah. Corey Moen: totally, totally. my gosh, it's so funny. It's especially 'cause like I think what's interesting is even underlying I have I ever since like getting a better understanding of sanity, especially in the last like six months, their positioning around like the content op operations platform I I feel like they used to say content operations system. yeah, like I thought Matthew: Yeah, they Yeah, they've pre kind of reindeed that, yeah. Corey Moen: I this just really connected with me in this realm of just like interesting. Like instead of even thinking about it like only your website, like is it can it be so much more? You know what I mean? Like actually, you know, one one other even thing to your point on like it's all just data at the end of the day. This Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: was something else I was like, Tinkering with with Claude recently and it is I would say actually the representation here is not great on on what I spent most of the time on was actually a a a spec. where like yeah defining Matthew: I spend most of my time nowadays like working with Claude to write like tech specs and rules and stuff before I ever like go like, Corey Moen: Dude, hundred percent. Matthew: okay, now let's turn this into a prototype or now let's turn this into an output. You know. Corey Moen: Totally. Like, and I think that is what's funny and ironic is like I, you know, still love design and I love front ends and like that is where a lot of my passion sits. But at the same time, like we've probably talked about this in past episodes. Like I I I as much as so many other people in the community are obsessing with like building all these little creative WebGL generators and all these little like fancy flairy tools to like focus on what you can create. I am so much more obsessed, I don't know why, with like, how does this change what how I work? How does this change how I can save time? How does this change how can automate more things? How does this change how like things can just be so much more seamless in theory, right? And and and not just because you can throw an agent at it to be hyper clear. It's because now I feel like enabled that I can start thinking about this with a partner like ironically Claude, but then also like. Maybe I can actually have an ability to test and implement some of this stuff. So, all this to say, where my head was at was like kind of in the same realm of what sanity is, where you just have this like big database, or they call it a content lake or whatever, and it's intentionally trying to Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: separate the ideas of design and content. however, the thing that I that sanity doesn't quite do, or maybe I just don't understand it enough, is that like, It intentionally usually leads to you don't want to store in your content anything related to like layout or anything related to like data association. Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: Like it should be completely irrelevant of it. And I'm like, but what about if you know we could instead just be full s solely focusing on what content needs to go on the page and the design just naturally is generated from that and not generated from scratch. It is generated from existing patterns that you establish and maintain and scale in Matthew: Yep. Yep. Corey Moen: your site. And so like the output, again, this is really rough, was like, you know, a world where you're just like focusing on writing a page in Markdown or some like notion style block editor. Again, all little bugs in here. And the main point is that Matthew: Th this is how I've always done websites with clients. Is Corey Moen: Totally. Matthew: I do an outline document like this of all the content and then Corey Moen: Love this. Matthew: it's like, okay, now how do we represent that visually? You know, but it always it should Corey Moen: Yes, exactly. Matthew: start with the content. Content first design has always been one of those drums I've hit been hit. Yes. Corey Moen: Preach, brother. Preach. Yes. I couldn't agree more because at the end of the day, if you have no words to say, then I'm sorry. Yes, there are sites that have very Right, it doesn't Matthew: Design doesn't matter at that point, right? Corey Moen: matter. There are sites that have very few words. Like go on awards and you'll find a whole stack of them. You know, but like they still Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: have some words, and usually they just fewer words means you have to be even more strategic and intentional with those words. But at the end of the day, you if you don't have words, you have nothing. And so I couldn't agree more. And so like, Matthew: I would also point towards scripts 'cause you know, I went to film school, did you know, script writing for Corey Moen: totally. Matthew: in in production for Corey Moen: Totally. Matthew: a while. And it's like you can say things without speaking them, right? So and a in a Corey Moen: Orly. Matthew: a script is a great way to visualize that because it's like in the script you see, you know, interior, you know, and it describes a location. And then it's like you can actually see people's thoughts and expressions in the script. It's not just what is the spoken word. And so I think Corey Moen: Totally. Matthew: that people miss that when they're writing kind of their content or their outline for the page. You can actually describe like what is the feeling what should somebody be thinking when they land on this part of the content, right? You can actually Corey Moen: Hundred percent. Matthew: describe that and that can actually drive how your visual representation, how your animations interactions work, all those things. Corey Moen: Yes, 100% agree. And like it should be all interwoven. Some of the best experiences are that, right? And like, and so aside from even the content, the the thought here was like, what if instead of our usual shape is like we work on copy and then you go to design or straight into development and and you're Matthew: Just copy and paste it in. Corey Moen: well you're you're you're tightly coupling content and design. Like this content was written for this hero design. But like what Matthew: Mm. Corey Moen: if it wasn't that way? What if you should only ever focus on the content and you're like, no, I'm just gonna like control order and things like that directly in here, and that Matthew: Yep. Corey Moen: will automatically be reflected in the design. And then in the design, you're just like picking between options that already fit in your design system. And this is the part that I was like recently also watched this. and honestly now that this Let's go. Let's go. So Matthew: Dude, I was watching this at lunch today. I didn't finish, but I got I got passive. This has been in my queue since it came out. But yeah, it's a great episode. Corey Moen: I I need I should just post this on NCSC because Nate Parrot, for anybody that hasn't watched this yet, definitely recommend Nate Parrott is the product designer at Anthropic that basically built Claude Design as Matthew: Well, I started following him his work when he was at the browser company doing Arc, yeah. He was doing all those design diaries there, yeah. Corey Moen: Ark. Yes, yes, for sure, for sure. And and something really just profound about so much of this is that throughout this interview, there's multiple places like was just shown there where so much of his workflow has gone away from like manually executing all these variants of things. Like think about the classic Figma workflow of like you design a thing and then you option drag dupe tweak doop tweak dupe tweak. You're doing all this Matthew: Dupe tweak. Corey Moen: effort. Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: To see variants. And instead, he like deeply leans into like, well, why can't I just ask the model to give me, you know, tweaks and variants and things to like flip through different options? Like, yeah, was it this one where he like this little banner over here, he like hit different toggles. And the point is that there's still, you know, I still kind of puke in my mouth a little over time, but there's still craft and taste is the buzzy words right now. But the general point is that that is still a really valuable thing and a differentiator in high quality products versus low or slop versus human made or whatever. It's it's less about, well, did Claude write that code or did you write that code? It's like, no, it's like, do you have a really good eye for how the execution happens? And so the way that he thinks about this purely from like, I just want to see an opt options and I'm gonna tune and tweak it to then the final state as my approach to get to end to the result. And so I was like, could we do that same thing? Matthew: It's all directional, right? You're like, okay, this direction, yes, let's keep going down that direction. It's like you go down a direction, Corey Moen: Totally. Matthew: nope, cut that, trim that branch off. And that's that's like a traditional art director role. And it's like if you get to that position on a project or on a team, you know, that's that's Corey Moen: hundred percent. Matthew: what what you're paid to be there for is you're you're orchestrating the people who are on the team, but also the tasks are be done and the output and you're constantly saying, Okay, push this way, pull that way, you know, follow that, do you know. And so it's Corey Moen: Dude, nailed it. Yes. Matthew: Like we we're kind of saying this. All this stuff is not really new, it just looks different, right? Corey Moen: Right. And we're I think it's pushing us to think about it differently because Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: of how some of the tools have shifted. But I couldn't agree more that like these are the same things people building on the web have been stewing about and iterating on for so long. Just the the shift in how we execute them is is what's evolving. And so anyways, routing this one out, like the only other ideas here was like two of the things. A In the same semblance of an idea of content operating operations platform from sanity, which I just think is really genius positioning. It's like, will we get to a world where we can also no longer have the terrifying fears of a website refresh? In other words, all Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: of your content is ultimately this word that I've seen around the industry recently is corpus, right? You have this like massive knowledge corpus, this huge database. Matthew: Where did that word come from? Because do Corey Moen: No. Matthew: we have Claude to blame for that word entering our lexicon right now? Because I generated Corey Moen: I I do not know. Matthew: something today and it it started talking about the brand corpus. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And and I saw Corey Moen: Bro, maybe. Honestly, like Matthew: that in your in your GitHub tab there too, that you called it a corpus. Corey Moen: So when I was chatting with Claude about this, that definitely came up. And Claude was the one that referenced that like knowledge corpus has become a big thing on like obsidian and tools like that, right? and yeah, the I just any any little tool I work on, even if this will probably never see the light of day, I love a short naming exercise with Claude every single time. we'll Matthew: yeah. Yeah. Corey Moen: like vet competitor names and all this stuff. It's a whole Matthew: Ha ha. Corey Moen: little process. I thoroughly enjoy it. And this one landed on Canon. but yes, corpus and the structure. And so like the main idea is like in a good metaphor is power tools, right? Like if you buy a drill today, a power drill, you can get like a DeWalt or whatever, and you can use the same DeWalt battery on all of these other tools. And this cascades across multiple brands. Could our content of a marketing site that is traditionally made, yes, could it truly be? yeah, like Matthew: That's the vertical integration and they get you. Apple Apple is the best at that too, right? Once you're in the in the system, it's hard to leave. Corey Moen: Right. Once you're in the system, but but at I guess the inverse part of the Apple example is like in the in the Power Tool example, your content and everything you know and ever say in a certain way about your company is like a battery. And you can plug that into this type of site or that type of ad or that Matthew: Plug and play, yeah. Corey Moen: type of email or that social post. It doesn't matter. It should all be feeding from the same source. And Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: the key point is that like Every time I work on a web page with a the team I work on or in the past as a freelancer, like we go circles on what we should say. And we also spend way too much time on like, well, how are we going to cross-link this to other page or or reference this to a blog post or like and and and all of that, if that all sat in one central place, which traditionally has been a CMS, then like agents should be able to help autofill that stuff for us quite quickly. Right. So that that the whole that whole corpus idea was the other one. And then the last one was like ironically, it was in the vein of Webflow optimize and Intelemize, Matthew: Mm. Corey Moen: which you know, Webflow acquired before that. In that the web, it feels like crazy to me that it's 2026 and the web is still as static as it is. I was talking to somebody the other day that, you know, works on like recommendation engines for social media platforms, right? Like so these little algorithm models that Help with rent, which like we all know is definitely not, it's kind of gross sometimes. Like I Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: get a little creeped out still when I get see videos that are consecutively similar to each other because I watched one at length, right? but in the same way, could the web work more reliably that way, right? And so the idea here was that assume you have all these different types of components and options, but then the little lock icon was like, well, I'm building a page. Maybe like I want everybody to see. For sure, this card layout because it just doesn't look broke broken. Thank you, Claude. So I'm gonna make sure that's Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: locked, but then the hero, I'm gonna leave it unlocked because I want it to automatically out the gate when this page ships. I want it to be testing, A B testing every variant of the hero Matthew: uh-huh. Corey Moen: and ri in real time reporting it back, right? Like I think some of this is what Bryant is doing. Shout out Brian Chow over at Ploy. Though there are things about this that I still am a little baffled by, like this de-anonymization of users. I don't know how they are doing this in a way that is legal and private, but I'm sure it's all protected behind a consent banner or something. But this falls in that same bucket of like, if you can know more about your users, it's not about taking advantage of them or converting them, but it's about pairing your content. And then your design up to what they would probably, you know, assimilate most with or prefer in some regard. Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: like, you know, it seems like right now on the web we have the basic like, do you have lighter like light or dark mode? and we can detect that from your Matthew: huh, I was just gonna say, yeah. Corey Moen: OS, but like not a whole lot else. You know what I mean? Like, will we eventually be able to know more, I guess. So Matthew: Do you like light, dark? Do you like motion? Yes, no. But yeah, I mean Corey Moen: Right. Matthew: what if you could say, you know, I prefer bullet list? I don't know. Or I preferred Corey Moen: Right. It's Matthew: card layouts or grid layouts. You know, it's like, you know. Corey Moen: Totally. What's funny too is like now that I say this, I don't know that I've seen anything about ploy that even talks about it as a CMS. You know what I mean? Like it it more like even just this product tab focusing on like Matthew: No, I don't think they have CMS yet. Corey Moen: So it's just, is it like just generating all the pages statically then or something? Interesting. Interesting. So Matthew: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Corey Moen: but then that begs the question, is it that they don't have a CMS yet, or is it that they intentionally don't have a CMS to kind of force you through this path that the agent becomes your source of the CMS? Like and it's just managing everything statically because it can, no matter the token spend, I guess. Matthew: I think it's generating statically because it can. Like that's the easiest path for them to launch this product. Corey Moen: Right. Yeah. Matthew: I thought I'd seen somewhere that CMS was planned, but I don't want to like sp speak Corey Moen: quote it. Yeah, yeah. Matthew: speak for that. But it's management at some level. So you know, some people are gonna be great with ploy just being that whole management layer. Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Matthew: and not and just kind of hands off and just talk to it and like you can do it from your phone or I think even like maybe even email your employee Corey Moen: Totally. Matthew: agent and stuff and it'll do things like I I know I've played within you could get it gets you like a report and says like you should add this page and it'll draft it up for you and you know, or you know, should make these tweaks, you know, because of something in the industry you're related to or something that's lacking from your bio or whatever. Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: It'll help you like give you lots of suggestions and it's always just kind of working in the background for you, which is pretty cool. Corey Moen: Yeah, it's and but even to that point, it's like is that concept of it working in the background, observing analytics, creating pages or recommending new pages, like a lot of the fundamentals of that doesn't actually seem that gnarly to implement. Like if you can get analytics or data APIs from your analytics. Matthew: Okay, if I was gonna position it, ploy seems like the next squarespace. Like it's what sh squarespace should evolve into, right? It it's for that Corey Moen: True. That's a good thing. Matthew: like DIY, you know. individual who's just trying to launch something quickly, you know, and just needs all the help they can get, right? Because they're Corey Moen: Totally. Matthew: busy going a hundred different directions, right? And so if Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: the website can just kind of work on its own and you just have to like say, yes, yes, you know, just approve ship, you know, Corey Moen: Right. Matthew: then that's gonna help people like launch and, you know, people who Corey Moen: For sure. Matthew: just don't want to manage a website, you know, it makes it easier for them. Corey Moen: Right, right. It's funny though, even the way you just described that, it like makes me again think back to the like, okay, well like I just want to manage it by selecting options and it recommends and grows things for me. You know, even on a page by page basis. Like, is it gonna generate a page and then I I can like, Yeah, I don't know if I like that. I can just kinda flip through some options be like, that feels better. I don't know. It's it's interesting. Yeah. Matthew: You just want to swipe left right. Yes, no, no, no, no. Corey Moen: There is a there's an idea. Dating app made into a CMS. Matthew: For layouts. Yeah. Corey Moen: Date your content. my gosh, I love that. Honestly, like, even just a fun little idea. It's in all this, too. I think like back to even the stacky example from Timothy Ricks and some of that. Like, I the other thing that crossed my brain when I saw that was like, well, okay, but like, what about your team or clients? Like, It feels unrealistic, thinking back to my freelance days, to be like, hey, client, Matthew: Okay. Yeah. Corey Moen: download this desktop app by this indie creator, and that's how you go in and edit the site. I don't know that that's the intention, though, right? Like, I'm just playing devil's advocate. It's it's I think the interesting part is like, well, as long as you store the content again, back to the concept of a CMS, you store it some way or another, even if you don't want to call it a CMS and it is, that's on you. The main point is you could always build other ways clients could get in and access that stuff, right? Like maybe you have a separate little web app Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: that you're gonna stand up for the clients just to get in and be able to change words and see pages and move some things around, but like they wouldn't have the full desktop app and code editing and agent editing experience, right? Like that's the part that's cure that's interesting to me is like you could kind of formulate how best to work with each individual client or like. at least define the general way that you feel is best to do and then that is part of your service, right? That is part of what they get is your own custom take and opinion on how you how they could build. I don't know, yeah. Or manage the site. So Matthew: Yeah. Yeah. Each person might want to work with the site or the content in a different way. And Corey Moen: Differently. For sure. Matthew: one of the things we haven't touched on yet is I saw this in my little self generated brief for this episode was a control plane. So Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: it's that surface area. It's, you know, the term governance, you know, it's like, Corey Moen: Love it. Matthew: you know, but it's like, you know, when we talk about you CMS collections or these data collections. It's like, you know, who can edit what? You know, who can see what? You know, where can things be applied? Where can they not be applied? Like all these rules and stuff. So that I think we're gonna see more emphasis on that governance layer, on that control layer of where where Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: things get used, who can generate, can it can an AI generate an article? can it publish an article? You know, or Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: can it just suggest edits to existing articles? I mean, these are all things that that's why you need a control plane because each client, each developer is gonna have their own preferences and it may vary per project, per site, all those kind of things. But Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: that is going to be an a more important layer coming soon. yeah. Corey Moen: Yeah, I it's I think I think that nails it. Even something else we didn't talk about in terms of options out there is no it's on No Code Supply Co. let me see if I can find it. there there was a WordPress agency in static. Thank you. Matthew: In static? Yeah. Corey Moen: that looked also pretty interesting. I'm gonna be super real with everybody that I am so messed up in my brain still about some just not great experiences I had with WordPress back in the day that as soon as I even found out that that they you know made form formally made WordPress tools, I was already like a little like, I am gonna struggle to trust this Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: one just because there's like some fundamental fundamental things about WordPress and the way it works that I just have always really struggled with or disagreed with. But to be clear, like most of what is shown in this video is still really, really compelling and really interesting. And even what was super impressive is this is like version zero one and they already have governance, permissions, roles, all that stuff. And I was like, wow, that that is pretty intense Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: and quite a lot. I think especially in the context of a team environment, which like I would argue is almost always valuable. Even if you are working with a single founder or a single shop owner, they are probably gonna eventually have somebody else that needs to help with stuff. and yeah, right here, users. Crazy. Out of the gate. Matthew: Well and then in this agentic world, you Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Matthew: know, agents are users. So it's like e Corey Moen: Totally. Matthew: even if y you're a solo developer, you're you're still, you know, working with Claude, Codex, whatever kind of Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Matthew: agent wrapper and harness you're using, you know. So it's like everything needs to be kind of multiplayer now in some sense. Corey Moen: Yeah, totally. This one this one was interesting too because like again, this is less where where's it just at? Like this is less on the the CMS and content side of things, but in general their here we go. Their UI is almost leaning on full on like every single thing is static. you know, or obviously there's some associations to components and things, but like all these little override Matthew: Some classes, yeah. Corey Moen: things and all that, whereas like What was interesting in Tim's approach with Stacky is it's almost like there is some concepts of like tagging on classes, or I think he shows it better here. but like really a most of it's abstracted up to like components, right? Which is very inspired by like component first development web flow, right? Like with Mast or Lumos or Small, Medium, Large, whatever frameworks that exist. where like it's almost intentionally just abstracting up to a to a layer where you still have quite a bit of control of moving things around and modifying little variants and things like that. But you don't really have to understand the concepts of classes or anything if you don't want to. So it's just really interesting to hear to s think about how we can draw that line, you know, from one case to the next, how we want. also this part for my CSS nerdisms is like, huh, look at how clean the HTML looks. I am I am so impressed. Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: This is something still today that I have always loved about Webflow, though, is that I could I am able to build sites that you know the HTML, even though no one really cares other than maybe the bots or arguably just CSS nerds and HTML nerds like us care about this, but like especially compared to even like SCSS or you know stuff like that, where it's like generating a string. Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: that's kind of arbitrary, like just looks so beautiful. And it was pretty impressive to me how he showed like you can even swap a class and it will also work. So it's not entirely like a per page CSS thing, in s to some extent, at least. I don't know. Totally, totally. So Matthew: Mm, there has to be some global CSS, yeah. To make that work on the front end. Corey Moen: yeah, again, sorry, divergent from content specifically, but it's just yeah. Matthew: No, but I think yeah, like Design systems are collections of content. We kind Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: of touched on it. Variable variables are just and tokens, you know, there it's all it's all data. It's all content that's being stored somewhere and called, you know, in a specific place. Corey Moen: Totally. Matthew: And so what he's showing here with the different layers of abstraction and conditional visibility on kind of the props and stuff there, we're moving to this future where you can. Define the layer of abstraction that's needed for your client or for yourself or even for different roles on the team. You know, say there's a junior designer, developer, and you only want them to see some subset of controls rather than all of the controls, right? Corey Moen: Totally. Matthew: They don't need to see every available CSS property in a dial. settings panel, right? Maybe they just see a subset that's you know safe for them to use, you know, until they know the full system. Same thing for clients. You can have different levels of abstraction. Corey Moen: yeah. Matthew: but yeah one thing about the clean HTML it's like I don't people should be using custom HTML like IDs in in my sense my my opinion. So it's like when you have like that, I don't know. Like that button wrapper, like that, that could actually be your your own custom ID tag, right? Corey Moen: yeah, totally. Matthew: you know, or container, right? You know. Of course we have things like that people know about like section and footer and and header and you know, all those kind of built-in, you know, HTML tags. But with custom, it's like why not define that at the tag level and then you're only using classes to like Corey Moen: Heck yeah. Matthew: make adjustments on top of that. Like there there's I think a lot of built in power. not only of code like readability, Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Matthew: but just in leaning into CSS the cascade and all that. Corey Moen: totally, totally. I mean, I'm a huge believer in styling the root elements and all that. I know some people are like all in on normalizing everything and then never touching it, but meh. yeah, I don't know. It's interesting. I think it's so funny too because like you know we were having Matthew: Well, that going back to that content if like if you go from your content first design to then your structured design, you can take that content outline and you can actually build structure out of that. And if you build it into the elements themselves, that's Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: less classes that that are like less code you need, but it also it just makes things easier, more repeatable, like even if it's not a component, right? Like Corey Moen: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Matthew: i if you make it the correct the correct structure, then you just know like certain things are going to follow it wherever it goes. Corey Moen: Totally. And I think to that point as well, I don't know if you've had this, is like working with stakeholders, especially people that are like again, guiding the marketing vision and content and voice out to the world, but they don't aren't necessarily writers. They probably don't have a lot of familiarity with HTML or the importance of like heading levels, for example, right? But again, that's where it's like some kind of a writing experience where multiple people can collaborate, including agents. And maybe some of those stuff's all you know like is like auto-completed, if you will, right? Like you might be typing out ideas, but like the amount of times I've gotten a copy a Google Doc from somebody and the only way to define sections and headings is by bolding. there is no heading Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: heading style applied or anything like that. And I just kind of have to make sense of it and then again do Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: the mapping. It's like Well, why couldn't just, you know, an agent understanding the context and reading it, it's just automatically gonna do that literally while you're typing. Maybe that would be annoying, I don't know. but it's Matthew: Right. Corey Moen: it's yeah, it's super interesting to think about. Yeah. Matthew: Yeah. I've always maybe it's time to try to build this, but I've always wanted like a a heading element instead of having to define H1 through H six. It's like maybe like as you're writing the HTML, you're just saying, you know, heading or whatever your custom tag is. And Corey Moen: Right. Matthew: then on compile, it's it's looking at the whole page and then where everything Corey Moen: I think. Matthew: all the headings sit in the structure and then then hard coding their their tag in. Corey Moen: For sure, for sure. Like Matthew: So if you move things around, then they'll automatically adjust their level. And so it's kind of it's it's Corey Moen: I Matthew: a safeguard against people who don't know what they're doing with the heading levels to keep things accessible. And, you know, they don't have to think about it if it's a single element. Corey Moen: Totally, totally. It's funny because even that's where I guess I was I was my head was kind of at with like and Claude, I'll share my screen one more time. It's like Claude, Claude went a weird way with not fully understanding like in the this little plus still is showing all these like block types. And I'm like, no, that's actually like not the point. The point is that you shouldn't have to think about what you want to assign to what. Instead The nesting level was where I was originally going, Matthew: Right. Corey Moen: is like, well, this is a top level and this is something that is associated under this. So it's just naturally nested under it. And so like that would be the mental model of how things Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: are nested. And then it would map to, in this case, JSON, that then is mapping Matthew: nice. Yeah. Corey Moen: actually to how the design is surfaced from it. Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: and the main point is that everything is like fully severable. Like you could hook this in exact same model up to any front end. that is able to understand the contract between this and and the design output. But yeah, I think it yeah, what what's tricky is just like still having a clean editing experience. Matthew: this like what you've done here with this kind of document structure and like you said, the hierarchy being defined like how you nest and and like Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Matthew: put group things just like if you're building an ocean doc and stuff people are familiar with. Corey Moen: Totally. Matthew: I I have this priority framework that I've been noodling on for years now. Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: And one of the things I did early this year was like you said, everybody build to-do app. So I built a to-do app and Corey Moen: Love it. Matthew: it's specifically like this, where it's like depending on how you order the to-dos, like it it adjusts their priority like automatically behind the scenes. It they're like math and stuff happening, but you never have to touch it, you never have look at it. If you drag something, you know, and it nests under another object, like it inherents the importance of its parent, you know, and vice Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Matthew: versa. It's like You just through a visual UI and just like almost like making things look good and grouping things and just like letting the natural structure emerge, like Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: it automatically understands what's priority, what's focused for you, and like automatically generates this score and stuff. so yeah, it's like a simple Corey Moen: Totally. interesting. Yeah. It's it's it's Matthew: way to think of it. It's like if something has a due date, you know, it it has a higher number. something that has no date attached to it, you know, things like there are Corey Moen: Yeah, yeah. Matthew: all these ways we can like generate a score Corey Moen: Yes. Matthew: for something that's like in your list Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: based on all these different parameters. So Corey Moen: And associations and all that for sure. It's funny even you mentioned like Notion style here. What is the is it is it super notion website? this. Super dot so built by is I think it's Traff is maybe the like he's like a creator. Whoa, interesting. I don't what is this? I have not looked at this in quite some time. But I Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: remember when this came out in this exact same realm. It's literally like you just, you know. format a notion page, which is like fairly intuitive to do in terms of dragging things next to each other and all that. And it automatically maps it to like a styled interface, right? Like and then you can apply different themes and all that kind of stuff. I honestly don't I'm I would be curious to know like how many people will use this. Like is it is it still valuable? But man, same like Matthew: I haven't heard about it in forever. Yeah. I mean, now that you can easily publish Notion pages and share them, you know, you can even attach custom Corey Moen: true, true, true, true. Matthew: domains and stuff. So I kind of feel like this functionality is baked into Notion now. but Corey Moen: Right, right. Is it is it still actually useful? But it's this was like I remember when this came out too, 'cause this came and then I remember seeing like two or three other basically exact same tools. Just call different things, they're all hooked up to Notion. As soon as they started releasing all the stuff, go nuts. Matthew: Yeah. What if you have structured data, like you said, you can present it in lots of different ways, different formats. They're all just different artifacts of the same source. So that's Corey Moen: Totally. Matthew: where having this brand corpus or brand OS, you know, where all of your rules for design and systems and your content you live and then you share that out. I love Corey Moen: Yeah. Yeah. It's really Matthew: that you've been screen sharing. I think I'm gonna share. Corey Moen: Yeah, please. What else you got to look at? Wrap us up. Matthew: yeah. Let's so one thing when we were talking about how clients like might want to interact with editing a site and stuff, I I've been on a trial here of town. and so you these are like personal a agents, right? And it and it's cute and stuff, and it's actually the output, I don't know how they're doing it, but when it generates reports, like the way they're written is so concise, but very well. Written and understandable doesn't even doesn't sound like AI. Anyway, really great stuff. They just Corey Moen: Interesting. Matthew: released this week, which I don't know if they they show it here on their in their on their page. But yeah. Corey Moen: It's such a cool page. Matthew: But it now supports iMessage. So you can just send your agent a a message from your phone and it it's talking to you just like you're chatting with with a friend or whatever. which which Corey Moen: Whaaa Matthew: is which is wild. but yeah, people should check it out. Corey Moen: Good. I'm curious. Matthew: I've I've I've gotten some of the summaries and I've actually there have been things like tools and stuff I've learned about, which I wouldn't have otherwise. So it's it's like, okay, cool, you know. so I think my trial's about to end, but we'll see. So Corey Moen: Dude, I'll also just side note, I love the sight. It feels Matthew: Yeah, there are some former webflowers who went here. at least I know at least Corey Moen: Interesting. Like Matthew: one PM. Corey Moen: it feels definitely like out of the norm in mostly a good way. It's kind of hard to follow, but it's super memorable. You know, like it's super Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: like, wow, I'm I am gonna remember this site just because it's yeah, out of the Matthew: Yeah. Corey Moen: and and all the little characters are like like you said, the representation of agents. Is that is that what you're saying? Like Matthew: Yeah. And you can to customize it. So mine is like a I don't know if I can be able Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: to show it real well here. Let's see. I I only built one. but it's like a red panda that has like an explorer vest on it with like things in his pocket and stuff. But on his like little name tag, it says the name that I gave him and stuff. Yeah. Corey Moen: What? So they're like like using some AI model to generate these based on a standard or something? Like does the elevation style? Interesting. Matthew: Yeah, there's some kind of customization happening. but yeah, so anyway, so people should check us. It's kinda cool. I had some other things I want to share. the making of cursors icons. I Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Matthew: love icon sets. I think designing an icon set, like first of all, again, talking about it's all the rules and stuff at the beginning that you Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: get to explore and define. It's like, okay, here are the patterns that work, here's what doesn't work and why. This article goes really in depth. on how they so they created over 600 icons and it took a year, right? For this single individual, I is what I I think did most of the work here. Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: But let me see if I can get to scroll down. So they're two sizes and they have outline and field. I love this little detail here. So they landed on a stroke of 1.25 pixel. Be just because like Corey Moen: Ha ha Matthew: Mathematically, Corey Moen: wave. Matthew: if you're looking at the numbers, you're like, it should be one or it should be 1.5, which is what they show Corey Moen: Right. Matthew: here in this example. But it's like if you look at the visual weight of the icons next to words, it's like one point it's 1.25, right? One Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: one one pixel stroke is too thin, right? And it doesn't feel balanced, right? They don't feel like related. Corey Moen: Right. Matthew: And if it's 1.5, it's too strong. It's too it, it like kind of commands too much attention. compared the word. But one point two five, sweet spot. Corey Moen: Wow. how some of the comparisons with the like the red X and the green check, when you scroll Matthew: Mm-hmm. Corey Moen: through at this speed, I could never tell you the difference. But Matthew: yeah. Corey Moen: even looking at them slowly, honestly, it's probably like that is the attention to detail that goes into this stuff that most people would never even think about. I guess that that's like when Matthew: Yeah. So this is when there's a slash through an icon, like it's disabled state kind of. you know, having Corey Moen: Yeah. Does it have the like block out? Matthew: a gap on one side of the slash versus just having it straight through. Corey Moen: man, so nuts. Matthew: you know, no kind of like fake shadow for the slash and stuff. yeah. So anyway, if if you people like to nerd out on the design of icons, it's really cool. it's interactive here so you can see before and after. So you see the little ink wells here on the A here. And just kind of before and then after how it just really gives it that definition. They increase the ink well there. Corey Moen: man. Yep. Matthew: things like that. let's see here the asterisk. So just really They actually made it thinner kind of towards the center because when it's a single weight across the whole stroke, it looks really kind of thick in the center of the asterisk. But there they Corey Moen: Interesting. Matthew: make a little skinnier. So give it that balance. yeah. So really fun article. And then another design topic, which I've been pointing this out to people I don't know, for a while. Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: Just normal people in my life. It's like Do you notice how boring colors are? Like, look at all the colors of cars on the road. It's white, Corey Moen: Ha ha. Matthew: it's gray, it's black, you know. Corey Moen: So much for it. Matthew: and so this article from the Atlantic came up in my feed, and I was like, Yes, this is exactly what I've been talking about. We are just lose, I mean, and this comes from the guy who's like always wearing black shirts and black hats, but we're losing color in our lives, and it's like Going back in the eighties, and I mean, of course, a lot of our the cars and stuff we were driving them were probably from ten, twenty years earlier. And it's like everything from the sixties and seventies was bright and colorful. And so I don't know, do you re recognize? I mean, even like our phones and our laptops have, you know, over time Corey Moen: Well Hutter event. Matthew: gotten colorless. You know, Apple's tried to bring some color back into them, you know. I don't know, people are afraid of color. I don't know why. It's that whole resale Corey Moen: I I it's Matthew: value. Corey Moen: I think it's this what you just nailed. What's funny too with you showing there's a home right here is like it is I don't I disagree with the from this headline, it may be permanent. Is like even just transparently we're the house we're in, you know, was built and basically all the walls are just like a light gray, like you can see behind me, which is like honestly pretty blah, but exactly what What you said is like, or even the subtitle says like part we haven't updated most of them yet because like we're like, we just can't decide. But I do see a shift happening at least in like homes and certain things like that, or even clothes, like a apparel fashion. We're like, I feel like color is coming back in some ways. But totally, totally. Yep. Matthew: But clothes feel less permanent, right? I mean, yes, it's expression, but Corey Moen: Yes. that it that is totally fair. Yeah. Matthew: Most of us change our clothes every day. Corey Moen: Right. Wait, what? Who does that? Matthew: Huh. and then and then so there's this Architect is Stuart Hicks. He has a YouTube channel. So he's a he's a video creator. Been following him for a long time. And he also has is on Nebula. So Nebula has a lot of creator videos. So Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Matthew: they can get money directly instead of because YouTube doesn't pay people very well. Anyway, it's really cheap. It's like 30 bucks a year to be part of Nebula. But he released this video, maybe the 13th. yeah. So yesterday. Very timely. And talking about Again, color and why we've lost color. The this is the current. This is from I think what's the paint company? Why am I blanket paint paint company? I have to scroll. Corey Moen: yeah, I know you're I I can't think of it either. I I feel like I know what you're gonna say. Matthew: Let me see if he says it here. Anyway, that's not important. Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: But anyway, this is like actual colors that people are buying and using for paint. Corey Moen: What is it is it Sherwin Williams Sherwin Williams, maybe? Yeah. Yeah. Matthew: I think that might be yeah, that sounds right. so yeah. So look how beige our country is. And I'm sure, you know, different parts of the world are gonna look different, but as far as the US, yeah. All parts of our lives Corey Moen: That is so funny. for sure. Like, Matthew: are using losing conflict. Corey Moen: I mean, where you were just visiting, Costa Rica, right? Like, would you say that was is an example is like, is there more color generally used there? especially with homes or architecture, you know, Matthew: Yeah, yeah. Corey Moen: or like I think of like Spain, or I have never been to Spain, or Costa Rica for that matter, but like you've seen a lot of pictures. yeah, super interesting. Matthew: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. There's actually a a board card game that I just bought called Tenbe. and it's actually a town in Wales. it's a coastal town and they have like it's almost like the painted ladies in San Francisco. They're known for these like colorful structures that are right up to the shore and stuff. So there are Corey Moen: Yeah, yeah. Matthew: pockets of this expression where it's safe, but it's like why is it like in general that we feel so unsafe? Corey Moen: Dude, I mean I think Matthew: to to make bold color choices. Corey Moen: that like you nailed the like permanence factor and the the you know resale factor of a car or a house, like everybody just wants to make sure that they can get rid of it again. but yeah, what a what a sad world. Matthew: Or but it's like electronic devices have gotten, you know, more boring that way too. And I think Corey Moen: Right. Or Matthew: part of the excuse is it's because the things on the screen need to shine, and that's where the expression is, you know. And that Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: puts a lot of weight on us creating the digital experiences, right? To really bake Corey Moen: Totally. Matthew: in that expression and that color and stand out. But Corey Moen: Totally. Matthew: it's like from the physical world we we are losing a lot of color. Okay. Corey Moen: So nuts. Matthew: So Now to something that has a lot of color and is a lot of fun here. so this is called no deck. Not nautic. No deck. Like we don't like we don't like decks. Did you? Corey Moen: I looked at the I saw the other day in and I honestly thought it was a deck tool, but then it Matthew: It's an anti tech tool. Corey Moen: or isn't it it says a consulting company for startups that sell thinking, not slides. So is this literally like an agency's website that Matthew: Yes. Corey Moen: makes decks and brand strategy, assumably, and like so I almost curated this on no code supply code and then I was like, wait a second, this is not a tool. This is like Matthew: Yeah, no, this is we're looking Corey Moen: Yeah, my gosh. Matthew: at this for the design and the interaction on it. So of course you can see we have buttons here to go to next and previous slide, right? And then we also have like an index here of slides so we can jump around. But if you start scrolling, you see this next slide and it pops up. If I keep scrolling further, it actually goes transitions to the next slide. Same Corey Moen: So Matthew: thing if I scroll the other direction, it goes to the previous slide. It's like that's that's a really slick interaction right there. Corey Moen: man. Matthew: And yeah, so each each page kind of on this site is very, very colorful and it's you know it's telling the story of why, you know. Forget the deck, Corey Moen: man. And again like Matthew: forget the pitch, you know. It's like the story that you have to tell is what's important. And then Corey Moen: I love it. Matthew: there's also down here presenter notes, pull this up. Do not say as you can see, you're better than that. And so e each each That's a different kind of speaker note, it's all kind of tongue in cheek. If they Corey Moen: Dude. Matthew: laugh at inspiring workshops, they've survived one. Pour them a drink after. So anyway, Corey Moen: I love it. And Matthew: really fun site. Corey Moen: it's funny too because like I think this says so much about the talent of this team because anybody that's working on presentations and strategy and all that assumably is really good writers, right? and and those details showing that through. Matthew: And gu guess what's here at the end? Did you get this far? Corey Moen: I did not. Matthew: So we throw we throw the deck in the trash and wait, Corey Moen: well. Matthew: but there one more slide. It's a mini game. Like, of Corey Moen: It's a game, it's so fun. Matthew: course. so yeah, so you get to just move around here. You can talk to people, blah, blah, blah. but then you can actually go in the game here. And the whole point of this game is to not get hit by the falling slides. that's about it. but yeah. Back to Corey Moen: So fun. Matthew: another trend we talked about a little while ago of mini games. Yep. Yep. Yep. Corey Moen: yes. Easter eggs, mini games. Heck yeah. I think I I always come back to so much of these things are, you know, how do you make something memorable? How do you leave Matthew: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Corey Moen: an impression so that, you know, if somebody visits this page and goes away, they might think of it in a couple of weeks when they have a relevant conversation and then think to reach out, right? Like it's like it's so many that no matter how we're making websites or managing CMSs and all that, it's like, So much of this comes back to this, you know what I mean? Like what is the point of their existence in the first place and how do you stand out? yeah, I don't know. It's I like to be grounded in these ways so so so often 'cause it's get it's easy to get stuck in the weeds of everything else, you know? Matthew: Yeah, yeah. Real quick, some more inspiration. Pay Spot3 came out, so people are looking. I've got three different clipboard apps here. Pulled up. Pay Spot's the first one. so yeah, the website's alright. It's kind of cute. you know, based on the kind of fact. Corey Moen: Nice. Matthew: But then we get down to the bottom. So I haven't ch like actually checked out Pay Spot Three. I haven't used Pay Spot probably since version one. but there's some different things about it. But there's an arcade here in the corner. I wonder what that could be. Corey Moen: Of course. Matthew: And this is a sorting game. I just Corey Moen: LOL, that's so good. Matthew: So it's like the trend just continues, you know, Easter egg mini games. super paste or soup paste, I don't know. this is a new one. This but this one kind of lives up in your the little plateau at the top of your computer. so it kinda expands that dynamic island. People are looking for clipboard managers. And then, but this one reminds me of Paste, which is this kind of classic one. I used to use paste before I use RayCast built-in clipboard manager. Corey Moen: yeah. I I'm I'm still a paste fan on my personal computer. Yeah. Matthew: yeah. Okay. Yeah, I don't know that it's changed much in a while, but it's pretty pretty good, pretty reliable. Yeah. Corey Moen: It's so clean and simple. It's funny now on WorkVibes, we don't have recast but we have Alfred. So I I use Alfred solely for copy or clipboard management. I don't use it to do anything else. It's so sad. Matthew: it that is that is very sad. Corey Moen: I yeah. Matthew: yeah but paste bot like the new one you can do scripts and stuff so and actually do like multi steps so it's not just like storing your clipboard history like there's Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: a lot like that you can do with like functions and automations and stuff as well. But it is a subscription. Then lastly have you seen this going around this week? Corey Moen: yes. And all the drama that's come with it. Matthew: I didn't even know about the drama. So I forget how I came across it and and so I just checked out the site and was like, okay, it's kind of cool. And then I saw kind of behind the scenes video. with Rid and Todd like talking through it. And so it's it was interesting to kind of see hear them break down. And I can actually see they've they're constantly iterating because there's a bunch of new features and UI and stuff here. Corey Moen: Mm-hmm. Matthew: but yeah. Whenever you maybe you know this when you curate something, everybody's like, why isn't my tool on there? Why aren't you showcasing my website, my design, you know? Corey Moen: Golly. Matthew: So same thing Corey Moen: Yep. Matthew: here, just this is a little more personal with designer. So I think, you know, there's a little bit of backlash as far as like, you know, this is kind of a closed club, you know. I I mean, I didn't take it that way because I just thought, well, this is like the guests he's had on the podcast. That's what I thought it was at first. But I guess maybe they've expanded past that. so Corey Moen: Mm. Matthew: I think that's where kind of some of the tension comes in. And I and, you know. Listening to them explain, you know, it was just a side project for fun to just try and do something based on, you know, a childhood video game that he enjoyed, right? And he's just thought, well, what if I could do that with some of my designer friends and put them like in this type of UI, right? So something Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: that just turned out, you know, started for fun. you know, can quickly get traction. Corey Moen: I miss I miss the context too on how they generate the consistent little characters. Is it like everybody's submitting and one single person is like doing all these in some you know, I don't know, Higgs field or mid journey or something? I I'm I d yeah, I don't even know. Matthew: Yeah, so Tom here is if you watch the behind the scenes video, which we'll link to, is the one generating the assets and stuff now. And so he's done a lot of work to make it performant and how they're using patterns and assets, you know, to make it as fast as possible. but yeah, I think he mentioned it takes about 10, 15 minutes per per designer to create all the assets. for for each designer. 'Cause there's kind of this this one and then if you add them Then they have like a different animation and stuff and then each person has like an object as well. I just think it's it's a fun little project. I don't really I don't think it needs the drama, but Corey Moen: Yeah, dude, same. Hundred percent same. Like why don't people just do their fun projects and it doesn't have to be such a big deal? Matthew: Yeah, this is not like a visual version of LinkedIn. Like this is just any anyway. Corey Moen: Right. Although what what I see what's his name with the yellow smiley face made it on here. Brett. Brett. Matthew: Yeah, Brett. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they're definitely, you know, there's Rob. Corey Moen: Nice. I love Rob Hope. I saw he he sold the site, right? so wild. Matthew: Yeah. Yep. Corey Moen: I'm so eager to hear has he announced what he's doing next? I th Matthew: I don't think he's announced it. So yeah, Corey Moen: Yeah. Matthew: maybe I mean, speaking of things, Corey Moen: What a guy. What a guy. Matthew: maybe yeah, maybe we should have Rob on here once he's said what he's up to. And yeah. Corey Moen: Pfft. I am super down. I am super down. That would be I think his take in general of like, I don't know, the web and how he's seen it evolve. He's been in, you know, in the industry for so long. And I would I would love to hear his take. That's a great idea. Matthew: Well, I think we'll definitely get Rob on sometime. we'll just have to figure Corey Moen: For sure. Matthew: it out. and just kind of speaking of that, so anybody watching, listening, please let us know if there's somebody you think that we should talk to, you know, we'd love to to hit up. Corey Moen: For sure, yes. No. Matthew: All right. Well, I think been a great episode. I think we we covered a lot as usual. It's amazing. Corey Moen: Okay. Matthew: lots of fun. Great to see you, Corey. And until next time, see Corey Moen: Likewise, later y'all. Matthew: y'all.