Kailey Waskall: Beauty was never designed with disabled people in mind, but we're here anyways. I'm Kaylee, an occupational therapist. Ashton McGrady: And I'm Ashton, Disabled Beauty Creator. Kailey Waskall: And this is Accessibly Ever After, where we talk about all things accessible beauty, inclusive design, and what it really means to make beauty work for real people. For today's mini-sode, we are so excited to have Storm Menzies here. Ashton, can you tell us a little bit about Storm? Ashton McGrady: Yes, so Storm is the founder of By Storm Beauty, and By Storm Beauty creates adaptive and accessible beauty products designed to make makeup easier for everyone. With a passion for innovation and inclusivity, Storm has worked to make the beauty industry more accessible for people with disabilities. She's also an advocate for diversity and leadership and inclusive design, so welcome, Storm! Storm: Thank you so much for having me, I'm so excited to be here. Kailey Waskall: And like truly just honestly Storm you are such a light in the industry like you are always so happy and welcoming and wonderful and so we are just so excited to get to talk to you about your journey today. Storm: Thank you. Kailey Waskall: You're welcome. I'll gas you up all the time. For anyone who isn't following By Storm Beauty on Instagram, you gotta, cause Storm is like the face of her brand and well, not fully the face, right? Like we also show a variety of people, but she will talk you through the process of like founding her brand and everything. And it is so fun to watch, like an absolute joy. Ashton McGrady: It's been so interesting. Storm: yeah. I'm trying to like be less and less the face of it and have more some some more characters involved we'll say but Ashton McGrady: Ooh. Storm: But yeah, we're getting there Kailey Waskall: No, Ashton McGrady: Love. Kailey Waskall: it's so cool. So basically we're just gonna dive in and ask Storm a bunch of questions about her journey, get a ton of really cool insight to a founder of an accessible beauty brand and all this good stuff. So to start, Storm, I would love to know for anyone who might not be familiar yet, can you tell us just a little bit about you and what led you to create By Storm Beauty and also what is By Storm Beauty? Storm: Of course, okay, all the big questions. I should probably start with, I have mild cerebral palsy, but I've lived my life with very few challenges. I like the most challenge I have is a one-hand type, which is very inconvenient, but thanks to AI, honestly, I can voice type everything now, which is honestly such a game changer. If anyone struggles with that, highly recommend. But I like, you know, that's kind of a bit of the context for me. I've worked in the disability space for the last, like 10-ish years, but I had a moment about two and a half-ish years ago where I broke my dominant hand and honestly I really didn't think much about it at the time. You just exist and you just do things really without thinking about it. So when I broke my dominant hand, didn't really think about it, went to do my makeup for the first time with my good hand in a cast and couldn't pick up a tube of mascara out of my makeup bag. couldn't open it and then I couldn't put it on and I was like wait what the fuck Ashton McGrady: No. Storm: and it was this like moment of realization for me because I I think I like I live with so much privilege that I wasn't even aware of until that moment because I've just done so many work arounds so much of my life that I just you don't even notice it. And then when I couldn't do something, I was like, my God, holy shit. How do people do this? Like, I'm not going to be able to do my makeup. Like this is like this is a big deal. And so like kind of face with this like mascara is OK. No problems. I'm just going to like Google, right? Accessible makeup like, you know. there's gonna be accessible makeup like one plus one equals two and then I googled it I'm like wait hold on one plus one equals what? Like not two. There was only one brand at the time which was Guide Beauty but they didn't ship to Australia at the time and I was like Wait, this like doesn't make sense. So I called all my girlfriends thinking she's going to tell me about all of these like accessible beauty brands that I couldn't find. And she was like, stop. Like. Makeup sucks. It is so hard. And I'm like, wait, wait, hold on a second. Like, what do you mean? Because, you know, we've been friends with like for maybe like, I don't know, eight years at this point in time. She has severe CP, always looks beautiful. I've like I've never asked her how she did her makeup, like not once. And she goes Storm, makeup isn't made for people like me. And why would it be? No one thinks that I could be beautiful. And it was like she said it was like Ashton McGrady: Ugh. Storm: like it was this obvious point. that I just like didn't like like duh and it was a moment for me that I think I just had so much like guilt and shame because I've just never thought about that before and I didn't even realize how much privilege I was living with. You know with something like makeup which like I love I've always been a makeup girl like I love makeup I just always have and I never thought about it before despite you know having my own challenges. and also working in the disability space in Australia for literally 10 years, I'd never asked a single person how they did their makeup, not once, and never thought about it. for me, was this moan of realization of going, my God. And when I couldn't find products, I'm like, I can't, I literally can't live with this. So I was like, OK, I need to do something about this. Like, surely, someone's got to be doing something about this. And if no one else, guess it's was gonna have to be me. And at first I was like, okay, cool, I'm gonna make accessible makeup. Like that makes sense to me. Cool, we'll make accessible makeup. Like, I don't know how I'm gonna do this, but like, sure, this is what we're gonna do. And so I started just talking to lots of different people with disability, because I worked in this space. you know, I've had so many like people around me with disability with lots of different like types of disabilities. I have friends with disabilities. So it kind of like opened up heaps of conversations. for me which was really cool. But in that process I realized that one, like it's a big problem like you guys both know Kailey Waskall: Mm-hmm. Ashton McGrady: Right. Storm: the lack of accessibility was something that everyone you know in my experience anyway everyone was aware of but instead of going hey like products aren't accessible this sucks it was like these products aren't accessible i suck like no no Kailey Waskall: Yeah. Storm: one was blaming the products everyone was blaming themselves or like i can't do this this is because of me not like hey these products should be more accessible like you know Kailey Waskall: Yeah, and that can sometimes like ableism and that internalized ableism, right? Ashton McGrady: Yup. Kailey Waskall: Of like, the messaging you've had since you were a kid is that you have to change or since you became disabled that you have to adjust and adapt. you're not even gonna, yeah, you Ashton McGrady: That you are the problem. Yeah. Kailey Waskall: are the problem. You're not even gonna think, oh wait, no, maybe this is a systemic thing and it's not just a personal thing. Storm: Exactly and that was like Kailey Waskall: Hmm. Storm: honestly quite surprising for me because I... you know, I hadn't experienced that before and I was like, my gosh, because, know, looking at it from like, you know, the probably more like the professionalized lens, I was like, but like, this is like, no, don't blame yourself, like this is a systemic problem, but you know, one that I hadn't even looked at before. it kind of then took me on this journey of going, okay, I know that this is not just a problem affecting me, it's a problem affecting lots of people. So what are we going to do about it? And like I said, like I was like, okay cool, we're making accessible makeup and then I started doing some focus groups and just like more and more research. think my background is like in science so I guess I took a probably methodical approach to it without even realizing being like how do we validate Ashton McGrady: Sure. Storm: this? And what kind of came out of that was that we don't want accessible makeup. We actually just want to be able to use the same products as everyone else. We don't want to have to use special makeup for you special people and so I'm so done because I was talking primarily with like young girls you know I'm so done with you know using things that my OT prescribes no offense Kayleigh they're all super ugly Kailey Waskall: No, it's ugly drove Ashton McGrady: so Kailey Waskall: me, right? Ashton McGrady: ugly. Kailey Waskall: That's what drove me to start occupation beauty because I was like what is available is so ugly and that's why I also Ashton McGrady: never forget the first time they came at me with those foam tubes. Why do they come in the ugliest colors too? Kailey Waskall: honestly, I don't know, it's the primary colors. They are on my Accessify database because they are really helpful, but they are so, so ugly. And I feel like too, Ashton McGrady: They're so ugly! Kailey Waskall: that's why I'm like so drawn to finding ways to use craft products as like accessible Ashton McGrady: Yeah. Storm: Come on. Kailey Waskall: features because... If you're DIYing and not using a ByStorm Beauty grip aid, which are also very cute, but because the ribbons and the things that you can glue on, it almost makes it a cutesy little, Ashton McGrady: Right, it's a little craft. Kailey Waskall: yeah, it's an individualized thing versus this ugly white plastic hospital blech. Storm: exactly. And that was like, you know, the feedback that I was getting because I think particularly like when you're, I mean, I think at any age, but particularly like when you're like teenage, early 20s, you're like, you're really just trying to fit in, right? And like, you don't want to be like, you know, anything that kind of makes you stand out, particularly like, you know, when you already feel like you don't fit in. Yeah, it just doesn't help. also like makeup is meant to be a joyful experience. Right? using like... Ashton McGrady: It's meant to be fun. Storm: Exactly. So I think it kind of brought me on this journey of going like, okay, well then shit. Like, you don't want accessible makeup, then Kailey Waskall: you Storm: what the fuck do you want? Ashton McGrady: Real. Storm: So I was like, okay, for myself, I was trying to solve the problem for myself in the moment as well, because I'm like, well, I have to be able to do my own makeup here. So I'm like, okay, well, what am I gonna do? Because I had three months in a cast and that's a long time. So I actually just literally went to my local $2 store. I don't know what you guys call them in the States, but that's what we call a... Like a junk store? Do you call them $2 stores? Kailey Waskall: Yeah, yeah, like, we call them like Five Below or Dollar Tree, but it's like a store where like Storm: Yeah. Kailey Waskall: everything is like five dollars and below, right? Storm: It's like an Australian staple. They're everywhere. But I'm like I am gonna like just like modeling clay, you know, like because I was Kailey Waskall: Yup. Storm: like, well, I need something to basically just give me more surface area. So I just started putting like modeling clay on the ends of all my products to be like, okay, well, like accessible makeup doesn't exist. I'm going to have to do something to my makeup. So I literally just got modeling clay and started like putting them on the of all my products and being like okay this shape makes it easier to hold oh this works a bit better and then went from that to um wait for it powerpoint um was canva not invented then i don't know Kailey Waskall: love. Storm: apparently not um but my first my first um drawings i mean they started like you know hand drawings and they moved to powerpoint drawings why i don't know um and then you know powerpoint wasn't really cutting it so i was like okay cool i'm gonna have to teach myself how to 3D model. That's the natural progression, right? For someone who has zero idea Ashton McGrady: Right, right, right. Storm: I'm just, I'm just trying to figure this out. Like I have no idea what I'm doing, but I was like, this is just like a cool little fun experiment that I'm kind of running. Being like, hey, can I solve this problem? And I kind of like a bit of a dog with a bone when I have like, when there's a problem that needs to be solved, like I just can't stop thinking about it. So I started like, I bought a 3D printer, told myself I had a 3D model and just started making all of these like prototypes and I was like okay cool like we're getting somewhere these are like kind of working I think I mean they're working for me but I'm like you know I'm one person so I then started having like focus groups of people with all different like disabilities all different ages and we just started like doing sessions together where we're like does this work does this work I at the time called it co-design now I'm so much further along my accessibility design kind of journey. understand now that is not co-design, that is more consultation with a focus group than it is actual co-design. But you're kind of making it up as you go. The thing that... I realized in all of this is like, you we've got accessible design standards for buildings, but we don't really Kailey Waskall: Mm-hmm. Ashton McGrady: Right. Storm: have accessible design standards for really anything else. For product design? No. For beauty products? Like, absolutely not. mean, until last year when I ended up contributing to the first ever published ones. But like, you know, I was just making this all up. I'm reading so much like occupational therapy research, hand research. I'm like reading all these things to be like, Hey, does this work? like, ironically, accessible design standards are super inaccessible. Like they're really difficult to read and Kailey Waskall: Yeah. Storm: really difficult to understand. And I'm like, wait, OK, so am I going to apply building standards to these products? Like, I don't really Kailey Waskall: You Storm: know. So honestly, was a lot of just like making things up and then just like testing and iterating with lots of people with different disabilities. And we came up with the idea of an attachment for makeup products that make them easier to use. So tried to make them as universally as adaptive as possible but basically work from the point of like a mascara eyeliner I'm sorry mascara not eyeliner mascara lipstick brow gel pretty much anything that is like round and cylindrical that is like a I mean not that anyone think of like mascara tube upwards you guys know and that that's kind of how it how it started and At first, I was like, okay, I'm just gonna give these like, I just thought like, this is just like a cool fun hobby that I was like, I really want to make beauty more accessible. Like I kept thinking about my friend Leish who like, you know, like this was like really designed for like me and her, right? To be like, my God, I didn't know she struggled so much. How do we make like beauty more accessible for more people? I just want to like give these products away so people have better access and all of those things. And then the further along I got on that journey, the more people I was talking to, not in a professional way, but in like a friend way, the more my like honestly whole perception of like disability changed so significantly and advocacy changed so much as well. And then that kind of led me into going like, shit, I actually need to start a business in this. Ashton McGrady: I really love that we've gotten to watch you build out loud. Getting to see your old prototypes, so much of your business you've just put out there for everyone to take in. And it has been really neat to watch you build this thing literally from the ground up. Storm: Cough Ashton McGrady: So we talked about all these iterations and how this kind of came to be, but I would love, could you walk us through your core products and how they actually work and the two different designs? Storm: Of course, so we've got two designs, Betty and Margie. They're both attachments and they both do the same thing, but they're in different shapes. So we've got one which is a ball shaped grip and that is better for people who may struggle with like wrist pains or strains and need more surface area. So dexterity can be challenging, but it can still curl their fingers to some degree to put it in a ball shape. Then we have a flat pad. her name is Margie and she is better for people who may struggle to like curl their fingers but she can kind of slide in between fingers. Also really cool, I never designed with anyone who has limb difference but I've had a lot of customers with limb difference and they pop her under like their armpit which is super cool because it was just not something come front of mind when we were designing so they're the true shapes and they attach to different products just to make them easier to use. The whole kind of premise is that makeup is really fiddly as we know and you have to basically Ashton McGrady: You Storm: be able to do like a pinch grip so adding more Kailey Waskall: Mm-hmm. Storm: surface area to products just makes things easier to hold in like a really basic way. Kailey Waskall: Yeah, 100%. And I like that you touched on kind of the point that accessibility, like when you mentioned previously about the standards, how there's not really one set standard for makeup products, right? Or for personal care products. There are some starting, like you said, your research article from last year. know, I think Microsoft Office came out with packaging design, but it wasn't specifically makeup. But again, it's very, very technical. but I like that you mentioned how the products you made, you brought all of these disabled voices and people in, but then there were still people who you were like, my gosh, I'm so glad that this is also working for you. And so I think that just speaks to the breath and the, nuance in creating accessibility forward products. And so I would love to know what was kind of the hardest part about bringing like this accessibility first product to life. Storm: my gosh, there's like so many challenges. my gosh. I mean, Ashton McGrady: Gonna spill some tea. Storm: my gosh. think like honestly. not having experience in this space was probably the hardest thing because you're learning as you're going and like not having like a rule book like you know if you're taking like creating an activewear brand right you know what activewear is like you know there's only so many variations of spandex you can have right there is a playbook already written for you but in this field i mean There's no design principles really. It's a lot of self research and not having a background in occupational therapy, for instance. I'm sure it would have been a far more linear path for you, Kayleigh, but for me, I'm like, shit, I'm gonna have to become a self-taught occupational therapist here. Kailey Waskall: But so I will say even as an occupational therapist, like makeup isn't always in my experience something that we learn a lot about because it is seen as this like leisure, not safety skill, Ashton McGrady: was literally about to say it. Storm: Mm-hmm. Kailey Waskall: like even as an OT, like I struggled to find. beauty product or like cosmetic design, like here's how to make things ergonomic or here's how to adapt things in an ergonomic way and truly had to just like come up with it on my own while I was also sharing with it on the internet. And so I totally agree with you that it is really overwhelming and scary to be like, okay, I feel like I don't know anything, but I also know some stuff and like, I'm gonna share this stuff because I feel like it's important to share this stuff, but like you're just. constantly learning, right, and being comfortable with knowing that you're gonna never know everything and you just have to try, right? Like that's... Ashton McGrady: Yeah, like Storm: Exactly. Ashton McGrady: that's not an ADL they're focused on. They do not care if you can do your makeup if you can't. I'm glad that you ended up having a client that you worked with, Kayleigh, that ended up needing help with makeup. And that's how you ended up here because where would we be otherwise? Kailey Waskall: Yeah, I would be, I don't know, sad somewhere and not talking about this online. the hardest part about bringing accessibility first products to life, and you mentioned how you just felt like you didn't know anything. Storm: I think that was it. I think also like if I'm being completely honest, like when I kind of talk... on this and being like, okay, cool, I'm going to design these products. you know, as we know, like disability isn't homogenous, right? And I really felt this pressure to make sure that the products were actually good and actually usable. But with any kind of product design, there are trade-offs with everything that you have to make. I mean, that's not, you know, an accessibility thing. That's like any kind of product design. There's always going to be trade-offs. So figuring out what those trade-offs were going to be and those trade-offs were going to affect was really tricky. like, you know, being able to get a product on and off is actually far more difficult than you would think. Because, you know, you want Kailey Waskall: Mm-hmm. Storm: something to slide on really easily but then to get that same product off is going to have friction and that friction may not be a lot for someone who maybe has more like strength or like being able to like, you know, pull greater but for struggles with that. Ashton McGrady: I'm like, I put my ByStorm grips on my favorite products and I don't take them off. Storm: Yeah, I love that. But you know some people you know thinking about all those things is really like really tricky and then thinking like who is that going to affect and then thinking like are they going to then feel like excluded from my products and like you know is that then going to be like a customer complaint and like thinking kind of through those layers of like I really wanted to make people feel really included but knowing that like you know there is no such thing as like a perfect accessible product because you know disability and accessibility needs are so varied and different is challenging and I also think like you know I probably put a lot of pressure on myself and still do that you know I've really taken this on and taken this on as like a personality trait that like I don't want to let down a community as well and not do it justice and not like not advocating the right way not you say or do the wrong things get it wrong which is why I think like involving people with so many different like different disabilities and different needs was really important for me because like, you know, I don't know everything. I don't want to pretend that I know everything and I want to make sure that lived experience is at the center. But I also know that there are tradeoffs in any kind of product design and kind of looking at those tradeoffs to go, OK, like if you're looking at a bell curve, like, you know, it is going to affect those fringe cases more. But, you know, those fringe cases arguably need more help. So kind of working through that has been really challenging as well as just like the learning journey that you go on like in product design, which obviously I had no idea what I was doing. So I'm just like, OK, cool. We'll just figure this out. You know, there's a learning side of like how to make something more accessible, then learning how to design products and all of those things. It's definitely has been challenging, but honestly, that is definitely the easiest part. Now I'm running the business of product design. my god, why can't we get back to that when I just thought like, this Ashton McGrady: You Storm: was just like, cool, we're just making fun products. That was actually the funnest part. Now the running the business Ashton McGrady: I'm sure it was. Storm: side is, it's a lot harder. Ashton McGrady: I am sure and can relate from the business owner's standpoint, both Storm: Yes Ashton McGrady: Kayleigh and I are truly by the bootstraps constantly, but you just touched on the idea that your brand is built on lived experience being so important and really at the core of everything you do. how did that actually shape the way you designed your products? Like you talked about these focus groups. What does it look like to design with a community rather than for them? Storm: Yeah, look, it's such a good question. think... For me anyway, like I said, at the start, I definitely did co-design wrong. So I said, this is co-design. But what I know now is that I was going to people going like, it was more consultation than co-design. And I think the difference is what I understand now about co-design is you go in with a blank slate and you're like, hey, we're designing this together, not, hey, I have these ideas, these products, give me feedback and consultation. So I think at the start, that's definitely it was. was like, hey, I've got all these shapes and ideas and I've made this. What do you think? It was a lot more like testing and iteration with people with different needs and really trying to like, like gather all the feedback that I could kind of make sense of it and then iterate. The approach that I'm taking now is actually like a lot more like clean slate, blank piece of paper. Hey, what are the problems? How are we going to design solutions together in a really collaborative way instead of it being more consultation feedback approach. And the way that I'm doing that now is I have a lived experience advisory board. We call it the league until we get an upgrade of the name. But Ashton McGrady: you Storm: it's a basically I like, know, lived experience is really important because I just think like. It also just like makes sense, right? It's like, for anyone who like isn't thinking about disability or how it works, it's the same idea as like a man making a fucking menstrual product for a woman. Like no shit, it's not gonna work properly. You know what I mean? Like, so why Kailey Waskall: Yep. Storm: do we think when we're making like assistive tech products for people with disability, why do we think we know better? Like it just makes no sense to me. So I'm like, it makes sense to have experience like if you're gonna make something for this community then they got to be involved in it like it just makes sense Ashton McGrady: Nothing about us without us. Storm: exactly Ashton McGrady: even if it's like a catchy slogan or whatever, it is true. we should, it's so important Storm: 100%. Ashton McGrady: to have our community in places, you know, behind the scenes, in the room where things are happening. And again, you've just like lived that. Kailey Waskall: I think that also touches on kind of our next point of like knowing and now having this lived experience committee or board or the league. Were there any assumptions that you had going in to designing that completely changed once you started testing on real users or with real users? Storm: Yeah, my gosh. Absolutely. I, a lot of things, I think my assumptions of how people use makeup, the importance of makeup, they were really challenged. I learned a lot about like even just like makeup setup. You know, I'm someone who like does, I run late for everything. I'm, you know, I have ADHD. I'm just never organized in my life. I Ashton McGrady: Same girl. Storm: have never done my makeup like sitting down in front of a mirror unless I'm like filming content, it's done in the car because like, well you factor that into like getting ready in the morning I just can't mine's done in the car while I'm driving like Ashton McGrady: You Storm: like yeah hence why I have like one point left on my license but anyway yeah so like for me yeah idea Kailey Waskall: Okay, road safety, people. Hold on, we have to do a PSA. Road safety is important. Storm: but you know that for me was like you know challenge a lot of my assumptions I'm like just how people do makeup. I didn't realize there was so much, so many steps that go into the setup, the planning, all of those things I really took for granted and that very much shaped things, like really simple things like making sure products can stand flat. Having a rounded product Ashton McGrady: Yeah. Storm: is never gonna work because a lot of people actually sit at a table to do their makeup, not necessarily getting it out of a makeup bag like I do. We'll often have a designated station for makeup where things like particularly if you are blind or low vision, you you tend to have makeup quite ordered in like certain, you know, in a certain way. So it's always findable. And like just learning things like that. Definitely working with a blind and low vision community. That was really interesting for me because I did have the assumption, like I think a lot of people do, which is that like, blind people even use makeup? Which is, know, obviously they're quite like ableist societal perception because we just don't see it very often. on. Ashton McGrady: It's just ingrained. Storm: Exactly. And so like I've been challenged at every single point with assumptions and I realized like a lot of those assumptions just really come down to like ableism to be honest. And I Kailey Waskall: Mm-hmm. Storm: that's been a really big learning learning curve for me because I wouldn't have said that I was an ableist person by any means. I would say, like, you know, I'm quite socially progressive and I like learned a lot, but I've realized that the learning that you do, particularly when it comes for like like textbooks will say But like, you know, societal learning so much of it is based in like deeply entrenched ableism. So like a lot of it has really changed and like really challenged my perception. And I'm a really big believer in like the biggest challenge to ableism is actually friendship. And so like the Kailey Waskall: Mmm. Storm: more friends you have Ashton McGrady: I love that. Storm: with disability, the more you realize like, you more realize like how much internalized ableism you actually have, even when it's not in an intentional way. because you start seeing people with disability as like equals who need, you know, equal access to things and you just see it through a different lens. And even coming from like the professionalized lens that I had, I realized was deeply, like had a lot of deeply entrenched ableist views because Kailey Waskall: Yeah. Storm: I didn't have as many friends with disability. Kailey Waskall: that is like what you're talking about with the unconscious bias, right? Where like, no matter what, you're going to have intrinsic ableism because of how we grow up in society. And the more that we can one, like recognize it, right? Like I know me and Ashton, Ashton's like one of my best friends and is disabled, Ashton, I'm sure you're okay with me saying that. Like sometimes. Ashton McGrady: I think so. It isn't my intro. Kailey Waskall: Yeah, and sometimes we'll be talking together and I'll say something and I'll be like, wait, no, I am taking that back. I'm sorry. Storm: You Kailey Waskall: so it just yeah, I know. And I thank Ashton McGrady: You have. Kailey Waskall: you for forgiving me. But I think it is this like important piece to understand that like, yeah, you are going to have ableist perspectives or ableist tendencies because it is so intrinsic. And the important part is that you start to recognize or when someone says like, hey, Like, hey, that's a little ableist. You can be like, instead of getting defensive, just be like, my gosh, my gosh, sorry, and then move on. Ashton McGrady: This also speaks to the power of, I know you were talking about like friendship being the biggest tool to crushing ableism, even speaks to the things of like diversifying the kind of media that we take in, our social media, the kinds of people that we follow, and the stories that we tune into, just taking in more diverse perspectives, especially obviously in the case of disability is what we're referring to here. When I first started my social media, I was talking about disability. was mostly talking about my service dog, Forrest, but like as I started to talk more about myself and my own personal journey, I really started following other disabled creators. And it was the first time in my life that I had, firstly, disabled friends, which is crazy because that just wasn't my experience growing up. But secondly, like, Getting to see the full range and spectrum of disability, that was the first time all of that had been accessible to me in one place. So I think that's so powerful, whether you're able-bodied, whether you're disabled, obviously community is important, We have the internet now. Storm: I like honestly I'm so grateful for the people who like like you who share their life online because I have learned so much through people's like just absolutely generosity in sharing their life stories because I'd like I know I have you know a lot of friends who are disabled creators and it does come with a lot more heat It takes so much like it really does take so much to put yourself out out there so vulnerably and share your life experience. And I'm just so deeply grateful because like I have learned so much and like, I just think it's so important. So thank you Ashton. I like genuinely really, really appreciate it and everyone who shares. But like. Ashton McGrady: I feel gassed up now. I love it here. No, I truly, I truly am so thankful that this is just kind of been the journey that I've stumbled upon because as I mentioned, it opened up my entire world. I grew up in a rural town in North Carolina. I really, the only perceptions I've had of disability prior and probably a lot of the reason that I struggled with my own internalized ableism and my own identity as a disabled person, is because I didn't see it. So the fact that, I Storm: Bye. Ashton McGrady: mean, when I was born, I was born, I am old guys. So the dial-up was still a thing, okay? Kailey Waskall: Thanks. Ashton McGrady: So like now that we have the internet and we have social media, it's just opened up my world so, so much. And I could definitely see how that would be helpful from you because again, like, yes, you're working with the disability community, but even just like seeing people try your products and reviewing your products and sharing. and just like sharing their experience, their life experience, their needs would be helpful. Can you walk us through an example of a design decision that you made while forming your products in ByStorm that was directly informed by real user needs? Storm: I get asked the question a lot, why do you add Braille to your products? Ashton McGrady: Mmm. Storm: Because this isn't necessarily, wasn't necessarily based off a user need. not based on a user's functional need but more so an emotional need. So braille on my products, they don't say anything except for the brand name, right? But the point of having braille on my actual products was because it says by storm on there so I wanted to make sure that there is equal access to information for my products including the actual product themselves so I made I guess the decision to make sure that I had braille on those products even though it's just the brand name. So people did feel included by that and that also flowed on to like my product inserts I have on all my product cards. It has a QR code that says QR code in Braille on it and then it has dots around the QR code so you can feel where it is so people can scan that and then it links to audio and visual instructions on the website as Ashton McGrady: love that. Storm: well. So there's just like equal access to information. You know people like well why didn't you put the names of it like the names of the products or like what the shapes are and I originally thought that until I was incredibly humbled by my blind friends who were like Storm you can tell the different shapes apart why would you need to have ball and paddle on them and I was like shit yeah you're so right like I have learned so much in this process because you you know it's not your life experience right so you you make a of assumptions and then you're humbled so often and you're like yes that is so right and I've been so lucky to have so many like wonderful friends that I've honestly like met through this process and have been so like kind and generous and like giving feedback to me and actually like helping me learn and bringing me on that learning journey as well. But yeah I would say like the the I get the question all the time because I mean one I also love that it challenges the assumption that blind people Ashton McGrady: Yeah. Storm: you know, use makeup, people are like, why would you do that? Like, they don't even use makeup. And I'm like, how many blind people do you know? Have they told you that? Kailey Waskall: what would you say to someone who feels like beauty wasn't made for them? Storm: I would say it is changing and it is. Beauty is for everyone, I think. What I've realized in this process, because you know, at the moment, like my strategy with Bystorm is to do lot of collaborations with brands. And that's quite an intentional decision. Because what I've realized is that people aren't maliciously exclusive for the most part. mean, excluding the, you know, the orange man, but like most people aren't like intentionally exclusive. they are accidentally exclusive. They're not thinking about it. And I think having these conversations with brands now, you hear more and more they actually want to do the right thing. They want to include more people. They don't want people to feel excluded by the beauty industry, but they actually have no idea where to start. And I'm sure you guys hear this all the time. People are really scared of getting it wrong. They're scared that we're going to have another youthphoria moment. are scared of getting it wrong and unfortunately a lot of the time like people who don't try get no pushback but people who try and get it wrong often you know end up with worse situations so I think like the industry is changing and because of people like you guys, people like me, like we're gonna make the industry change a lot more because everyone belongs in beauty. Like beauty is for everyone, the industry just needs to catch up and I think we've seen that in, we've seen that with like shade range, diversity, you know, that's now, Ashton McGrady: Right? Storm: and that's a standard but 10, even just 10 years ago that was not the standard and you know, we now are like of course people of color belong in beauty, like what a bizarre thing to ever think of. otherwise, but it's taken a while to change that. Ashton McGrady: What would a truly accessible beauty industry look like to you in your opinion? Storm: my god, okay, what would it look like? Ashton McGrady: Such a loaded question, I know. Storm: It is! Look, I think that like... When you break it down, think it's having access to the same information. It's having access to the same shocking experience and the only way and access to the same usability of products. And I think the only way you're ever going to be able to achieve that is actually by including disabled people in every aspect of that. So every aspect of like the product design, the branding, the marketing, the messaging, and you know, coming into like the retail shopping experience as well and being involved in that. And that can, look a bit, you know, look like a really big feat for brands but it really isn't. Like it really doesn't take a lot to make things more accessible and I think a lot of the time accessibility is, you know, positioned as like a really big mountain but like it really doesn't take much to make things more accessible and I think, you know... I think it's going to take a while until we have like, quote unquote, like perfect accessibility. But I think like you can make really small tweaks that include more people. And I think that's a really great Ashton McGrady: Agreed. Storm: starting point. One of my friends who she's an accessibility consultant, she's also blind. She has this great thing that she says, which is like, if you increase, if you increase your font size by just two points, you've now increased like 50 % more people on the bell curve, something like that, I've definitely butchered it, but like doing something as small as like increasing your font size you've then included more people and that is like a zero cost change to make. And like I love that approach to thinking about accessibility because it doesn't have to be, you know, it doesn't have to be rocket science, but I think the only way we achieve it is actually by having, you know, having disabled voices. because how are we gonna do it otherwise? We don't have any standards to go off, not yet. Kailey Waskall: not Ashton McGrady: yet. Kailey Waskall: yet. And that is an absolute mic drop moment to move into our next section, which is a little bit lighter. Because we've Ashton McGrady: It's so fun. Strap it in. Kailey Waskall: had a good, I feel like just, this has been somewhat of a heavy conversation, but not in, like we've just talked about a lot of things that have a lot of meaning. And so now we're gonna get a little silly, but our next section is called rapid fire. So we are going to ask you questions and we just want your gut reaction, your gut choice. There's no wrong answers, but are you ready? Storm: Yeah, let's go. Ashton McGrady: Okay, full beat or bare minimum. Storm: Full bait. Ashton McGrady: pump or squeeze to. Storm: What a silly question, pump. Ashton McGrady: Liquid or powder? Storm: Liquid. Ashton McGrady: just works or actually fun to use. Storm: fun tears. Ashton McGrady: Most underrated accessibility feature. Storm: pump. I'm going back. Big fat pump. Ashton McGrady: Fair enough. She said period. Biggest packaging ick. Storm: sticky tape. Yeah, my God. I don't know if it's Ashton McGrady: Ew. No, I hate it. Hate it. Storm: the same in the US, but my God, they wrap sticky tape on like any kind of pencil product. They like wrap it on so people Ashton McGrady: Yeah. Storm: don't steal things or whatever. ick. Ashton McGrady: one thing that brands should stop doing immediately. Storm: not including disabled people in any aspect of their brand. Ashton McGrady: period, one thing they should start doing tomorrow. Storm: including people with disability in every aspect of their brand. Kailey Waskall: You Ashton McGrady: You know what? Take it right on home. I love Storm: So easy! Ashton McGrady: it. That is the end of our rapid fire. This was truly such an insightful and helpful episode. And as Kaylee has said, and I will echo, it's so clear you've put so much passion and love into it. And we have loved watching your journey and can't wait to see where it takes you in the future. We're so excited for you. Storm: But thank you so much. This has just been so much fun and like so grateful to be here. So thank you. Kailey Waskall: Okay, and so we do have one more question for you before we say goodbye. If there is one message that you hope listeners gain from listening to this episode, what do you want them to take away? Storm: Oh my gosh, that's such a big question. I think that like you have the power to solve a problem if you're faced with one and I think that I... probably didn't believe that until I was halfway through the process that I thought, who am I to do something? But I think all of the time, if we sit around and wait for someone to solve it, we'll probably be waiting a long time. And I think we have so much power, particularly in this technology era where we have so much access to information and resources that we can actually change things if we want to. I never thought I would be here doing this, but I'm so grateful that I believed in myself to be able to be here. So I think that like, it takes a little bit of self belief, but like we all have the power to like make change and you both are like absolute testament to that as well. Ashton McGrady: I love that. So if you guys want to follow along, and you absolutely should, with By Storm's Journey and Storm's Journey, we will absolutely be linking her website, her socials, everything in the episode description so you can check her out. Kailey Waskall: All right, and if this episode felt helpful, consider subscribing, sharing it with your bestie, or leaving a review so we can keep the dream alive. Ashton McGrady: And the lights on. Thank you and night. Kailey Waskall: See you next time, friends.