Kailey Waskall: Beauty was never designed with disabled people in mind, but we're here anyways. I'm Kaylee, an occupational therapist. Savannah Lofland: and I'm Savannah, an OT student. Kailey Waskall: And this is Accessibly Ever After, where we talk about all things accessible beauty, inclusive design, and what it really means to make beauty work for real people. Before we jump in, I want to quickly reintroduce the other voice you're hearing. you didn't tune into our last mini-sode, Savannah is our doctoral student who has been working behind the scenes to help us bring this podcast to life. Savannah Lofland: In our last mini-sode, we mentioned that we would be adding monthly guest episodes here and there, we would bring in additional conversations about accessibility in the beauty industry, which basically just means more conversations about all things beauty and accessibility. and accessibility. Kailey Waskall: So today we are so excited to introduce our guest, Selena. Selena, thank you so much for being here. Selena: Yay! Hi everyone. Thank you both for having me. I'm so excited to be part of this conversation. Savannah Lofland: is acute care OT is currently completing ⁓ NYU. If you're not with OT occupational therapists work with people of all ages to support them doing they and want to do. Selena's doctorate focuses on accessibility and helping define OT's role beauty industry. Kailey Waskall: How exciting. we have a whole bunch of questions that we're going to ask Selena. So we're going to start with, how did you first become interested in occupational therapy? And when did you start noticing that beauty wasn't designed for everyone? Selena: Well, I really didn't have this aha moment of I want it to become an OT because like a lot of people in healthcare, you start off pre-med and then you get to organic chem and you're like, ⁓ why did I get myself into? Yeah, so I just had to kind of decide, do I want to spend? Kailey Waskall: That's fair. Selena: that kind time, money and stress in a career. And it really boiled down to what was going to be the most fulfilling what resonated with me about OT is that you're not just saving lives, but you're helping people get back to their life, whatever that looks like to them. Kailey Waskall: Yeah, that's really one of my favorite things. And it's so funny to hear you say that you also didn't really have an aha moment because my aha moment wasn't even a moment. It was just my mom saying like, hey, I think you'd be good at this. And I was like, you're so right. And then I just went for it. So that's so funny to hear like very similar paths to become an OT. ⁓ Selena: Yeah, I really didn't have like an inspiring story, but I'm glad I stumbled upon it anyways. Kailey Waskall: Yeah, and so can you tell me a little bit about like going through OT school and how that impacted noticing that beauty wasn't designed for everyone? Selena: Yeah, so going through OT school really opened my eyes to how not accessible the world is in general. I would just go through my day thinking about how do people with disability navigate the world and do all the things that I get to do seamlessly and take for granted a lot of the times. And like, once you see it, you really can't unsee it. So then just started paying attention more And then when I got ready for my day, was like, oh my God, if I have a stroke tomorrow, like, how am going to do my hair? Kailey Waskall: No, truly, like I had a friend who broke her dominant hand and she texted and was like, Kaylee, I literally cannot do my makeup. And I was like, I'm so sorry. I don't know how to help you. ⁓ Cause wasn't a no T yet. Selena: Oh, Yeah, so from that I just started doing a deep dive into what's out there, what still needs to be done. Savannah Lofland: That's kind how I found out about the accessible beauty world. I really just kind of stumbled upon it and once like you said, you see it, you can't unsee it and you just are constantly looking at how things are so inaccessible. You kind of touched on it a little bit, but what made you choose accessible as your focus of your doctorate? Selena: When I was in grad school, I really didn't know how broad the scope of OTC was. I initially thought about going the PEDS route and then I became more interested in adults and neuro rehab. when it came down to my doctorate, I knew I was interested in assistive technology, but I felt like I needed to find one thing that was going to keep me excited and passionate about pursuing a doctorate because definitely not easy. Kailey Waskall: Yeah, that sounds like it's really hard. Selena: So as I started learning more about just how broad the field can be and different emerging fields within OC, I thought I can much make my career anything I want it to be. I thought about my hobbies, things I love to do, which include beauty and fashion. around that time, I started looking into the fashion industry and they were really making more efforts to be more inclusive like Target and Kohl's. So I thought, why hasn't the beauty industry caught up yet? Kailey Waskall: No, truly, like has taken so long for people to even notice I the comment all the time from family members being like, ⁓ my gosh, I hadn't even thought of this. This is fabulous. And I'm like, I know. ⁓ Selena: Yeah, started doing my own research it was like crickets. It was early days back then. I remember Guide Beauty's website was under construction and things were coming soon. Rare Beauty was so pretty new, but really didn't advertise much about disability. So I thought what a perfect way to blend what I love to do with OT and really be part of something new and exciting. And if you think about it, the core of OT is to help people perform and participate in activities that they find meaningful. So if makeup is meaningful to me, I'm sure it is to a lot of other people, no matter what their abilities are. So it really only felt right. Kailey Waskall: ⁓ a hundred percent. And as someone who also loves beauty, find so interesting too that OTs, we work on kind of holistically the whole person, right? And we're really promoting participation in whatever is to them, which really can help improve self-esteem. I feel like makeup is such a big part of my self-esteem. Like when I'm able to shower and get dressed in a cute outfit and do my makeup, I feel like eons better. so making sure that has that same ability to those things that are important is so, important. ⁓ as an occupational therapist, like I said, also loves accessible cosmetics and has made it my whole personality, truly always love hearing how people realized that belongs in the beauty industry. And so like, when did you realize that OT truly has a place in this industry? Selena: Yeah, that's a great question. I think I realized when I saw how much the movement started growing and even became trendy, it really showed that there is a need and a gap to be filled. Initially, when I chose my focus area, I actually received a lot of pushback from my own professors. And it kind of made sense because it wasn't a traditional path. But word for word, one of my professors said, not everyone likes makeup. Savannah Lofland: Mm-hmm. Kailey Waskall: Rude. Selena: I so shocked. I remember being on Zoom, like, did she really just say that? Kailey Waskall: Yeah, like that's such basic ADL for those who are not OTs that just means like an activity of daily living. like tooth brushing, showering, going to the bathroom, getting dressed. And I feel like makeup is such an integral part of so many people's morning routine. Savannah Lofland: I feel like we help people do activities that not everyone to do all the time, but we still find ways help them do the activities that they love to do, like applying makeup. It's just another occupation. Selena: So it was like she was almost saying that it's not a valid enough area of focus because not everyone needs to apply makeup like they need to eat or get dressed. And it was so infuriating because, maybe not everyone loves or appreciates makeup like we do, but there are so many people who do find it a meaningful application. Like you said, an actual grooming and hygiene Kailey Waskall: Mmm. Selena: ADL according to the occupational therapy practice framework. Kailey Waskall: OT practice framework for anyone listening is really our of guiding light. So it goes through every single thing in our scope of practice if you want to know what occupational therapy is, read through the occupational therapy practice framework. it is written for occupational therapists. So you might be reading it and be like, what? Selena: kind of just lays out for you and it really helps you justify certain things like this. Like why would we even be in space in the first place? So it was definitely discouraging to hear my professor say that, but I had a validating moment when and OT Dr. Esther Bay worked on the fine comfort line with Rare Beauty and AOTA published an interview with her. So that same professor sent me an email saying, I saw this on Facebook about accessible makeup packaging and immediately thought about you and your early interest in this for your portfolio. Guess you were on something. was like, ⁓ thank you. my gosh. Kailey Waskall: my goodness. Savannah Lofland: I'm making it. Kailey Waskall: That must have been such a, yeah, I know moment for you. Savannah Lofland: Mm-hmm. Selena: It was definitely validating, appreciated the pushback at the end of the day because it just made me pause and really think about how I can solidify this as an area of practice. Savannah Lofland: accessible beauty. Kailey Waskall: it's so interesting that your professor gave you so much pushback because when I first started looking into kind of accessible beauty, I found a lot of articles specifically about the disability community in like globally, there are 1 billion people who report having some type of disability. So it's wild me that your professor was just like, ⁓ I don't know beauty is appropriate. Selena: Yeah, for sure. also one in four Americans have a disability according to the CDC. But what I didn't know is that 85 % of women apply an average of 16 skincare and cosmetic products every day. Kailey Waskall: so many. Selena: So that means that in four of those 85 % of women has to have a disability. Kailey Waskall: Wow, that's like a mic drop stat right there. Savannah Lofland: ⁓ Selena: Period! there is most definitely a need and a market out there. I think what's dangerous about this kind of thinking that makeup is not important for people with disabilities is that it just furthers the othering of people this beauty space. I've heard from several people in the disability community say, I've always been told it's okay, you don't need makeup, natural beauty is better, which could be true, but I just think it furthers the narrative that people with disabilities and makeup and beauty don't belong together. Kailey Waskall: Yeah, especially when you like see much marketing for all these brands and there's no visibly disabled in the marketing, So then it's like, you're not even being seen in these products that they're trying to sell you. Selena: Right. I'm sure you start to that and you start to think like, okay, maybe this is not for me. imagine wanting to do something and wanting to feel like you belong but you can't because it's not accessible to you. And then people are telling you, ⁓ don't need it. me as an OT, it was just a no-brainer that we would want to help people feel included in this space and help create beauty products that are made to promote independence what most people don't know is that occupation and occupational therapy doesn't mean helping you find a job. It just means how you fill and occupy your time. So people don't understand how broad OT can really be Kailey Waskall: I remember in one of my field works, I had an inpatient hospital field work and ⁓ I we someone like scoop cat litter then we helped someone else with gardening and then we helped someone else with walking their dog. like truly ⁓ whatever ⁓ is important to person important to us and we're gonna like figure out how to help you do that. Selena: It's so interesting that you say that because I also someone find a solution for picking up ⁓ dog. And she was someone who was born without upper limbs. So it was definitely interesting to brainstorm together solutions that are already out there or how you can adapt other tools buy different things. I'll definitely be posting about that soon if you want to go to my page. Shane was plugged. ⁓ Kailey Waskall: ⁓ my gosh, plug yourself. What is your ad? Savannah Lofland: Yeah. ⁓ Selena: It is B.Selena. overall, the reality is that the makeup industry is not tailored to a quarter of the population's needs. that's really where we can help with our clinical knowledge, our knowledge of anatomy and physiology and disability, and even our knowledge of how humans interact with the environment, really are equipped to be a helping hand and consultants for beauty brands who are looking to be more inclusive. Kailey Waskall: Yes, 100%, which is why we are all in this podcast together talking about occupational therapy and its role in beauty. I would love to know what research have you done or found about accessible beauty while you're doing your doctorate? And then has any of it surprised you? Selena: Yeah, of course. I've actually been working on my doctorate for a while now. So it was really interesting to see how much more research been able to find and just articles in general. one that I recently came across was from 2011, which found that applying makeup activates brain activity in people visual impairments. So after they apply their makeup, the reward system activity in their brain was significantly stronger and people with visual impairments versus sighted people. And I think that's a huge deal to have real clinical studies and research that shows just how fundamental it is to be able to apply your makeup and do it independently how it can really help people with disabilities live fully and confidently. Kailey Waskall: That so cool. Selena: I could definitely link this study for you guys. Kailey Waskall: We'll put it in the show notes. Savannah Lofland: nice. We have talked a lot products do you think beauty brands truly what it means to be accessible? Selena: I don't think that any one brand has a perfect think because there is not a set standard of accessibility yet. Like there is for cruelty free products like that leaping bunny seal and certification. So I think it would be pretty cool to have some set criteria that products have go through to kind of be called accessible But even then, I don't believe that one product could truly be accessible to everyone because there are just so many different needs. So I just appreciate any brand that is trying to make a genuine effort so we can all figure out what that looks like. Kailey Waskall: Yeah, and I really think that also comes down to your hiring practices, right? hiring people with disabilities, hiring brand consultants and all these different things. So you're getting all these different inputs and ideas because that's truly where the most innovation comes out of, right? the tenants of universal design. truly are like if we making products through that lens, we are gonna make more accessible products naturally. And even though they might not be accessible to everyone, like we're widening that consumer base. So the more innovative and accessible design the better. I always think of the arthritis, ease of use certification that I know Tilt Beauty got. but that again is one condition, it's very frame of reference. So it would be really interesting to even see what kind of that framework would be. know CME index, Selena, have you heard of them? ⁓ Selena: I have actually. Kailey Waskall: so I wonder what their ⁓ brand what they're will look like if they're able to really help quantify, what makes something easily accessible to a wider variety of consumers? as chatting, ⁓ Selena: Right. Kailey Waskall: about Tilt Beauty ⁓ See Me Index and all of these things. We've definitely seen more conversations around accessibility in the beauty industry. I know since I started talking about accessible beauty and like thinking about accessible beauty back when I was a new OT eight years ago, the conversation has totally shifted, Like when I was first starting, we could find nothing. Now we're finding more things, which is really exciting, but we do still have a long way to go. So I would love to know what you think is still missing. Selena: we've definitely touched on it, but I think there is still a lot more work to be done in the visibility and representation of people with disabilities there has been a lot buzz, like you said, around accessibility. And was going to also bring up Tilt Beauty because I feel like they've really integrated people with disabilities seamlessly in their marketing. And they've always included influencers who have disabilities from the beginning. Savannah Lofland: Mm-hmm. Selena: And not in a way that feels like an afterthought or a tokenism. So I think they do a really good job of appealing to the mainstream market and having functional products that are also aesthetically pleasing. it kind of hits on a concept that I've come to understand more, which is social accessibility. that just means creating a society where everyone can fully participate and removing physical, systemic, and social barriers. one key aspect of that is challenging negative attitudes about disability. So there is a common misconception that in order to create something accessible, it has to be ugly or medical looking, but it can be aesthetic and seamless. And if you can mold aesthetics and functionality, then I think you can really mainstream a product or a brand and Tilt Beauty is a great example of that. Savannah Lofland: I completely agree. feel like just in the past year or two, I've really seen companies like Tilt and Rare Beauty. make products that are both aesthetically and talking a little bit about aesthetics if a brand asked you for three immediate accessibility upgrades, what would you tell them to do? Selena: So I think just immediately improve digital accessibility of your online content that's something that could be immediately worked on. And truly, like I said, integrating and increasing visibility of people with disabilities and marketing material. And I think Kayleigh touched on this, but including people with disabilities right from the beginning of the product development process is just going to avoid so many issues later on. Kailey Waskall: No truly, we're just gonna do a whole system reset. Savannah Lofland: it ⁓ Selena: Yes, please. Kailey Waskall: And on that kind of like doing a system reset, where do you see the accessible beauty movement in five to 10 years from now? Selena: Well, I see a lot of high tech products that have been teased but not released yet, like Lancome's Hapsta Lipstick Applicator. It helps people apply lip products those with reduced grip and fine motor coordination. And it has this self-leveling technology for tremors, like if you have Parkinson's or any other neurological disorder. I also AI technology will become more accessible to the public. So... ⁓ It'd be interesting to see how these high tech solutions will price their products and maintain accessibility and affordability. That could be a whole podcast in itself. Kailey Waskall: Yeah, because I think the Hapda is going to be like fairly expensive when it comes out ⁓ Selena: sure. And also hope that accessibility will become more mainstream and more people will support these brands that are truly an effort towards inclusivity. Savannah Lofland: I love that. think you've touched on many topics need to be touched on in the beauty industry. So to kind of wrap up what we've been talking about, we're going to switch gears and do beauty rapid fire. going to do are you ready? What is Selena: Bye! good. Yes. Savannah Lofland: one beauty product you love but think could be designed better. Selena: hair tools Savannah Lofland: a lip product you can apply without a mirror. Selena: Black Honey Lip Oil. Savannah Lofland: what is one beauty trend you secretly love? Selena: a good 2016 glaring highlight. Savannah Lofland: one makeup product you cannot live without. Selena: Definitely concealer Savannah Lofland: Have you ever looked at a beauty product and thought, who designed You don't have to say which beauty product, but have you ever seen one and just thought, ⁓ gosh, this is not accessible? Selena: sorry, ⁓ Tilbury, their setting powder and under eye corrector packaging is horrible. I always stick my nail into it when I'm trying to get it open. Kailey Waskall: Yes, I've actually used tweezers to get their packaging open because if not, I'm struggling with it forever. Selena: That is such a good idea Savannah Lofland: two questions, what is the beauty hill you will die on? Selena: Your makeup is always good as your skincare. Savannah Lofland: is one word to describe the future of accessible beauty? Selena: Limitless. Savannah Lofland: Ooh, good word. Kailey Waskall: Ooh, that's a fancy one. I like that one. That so fun. But before we wrap up, I do have one more question for you. If listeners are gonna remember ⁓ one thing from today's conversation, what do you hope that is? ⁓ Selena: Yeah! Savannah Lofland: Yeah! Selena: I really hope that listeners have a better understanding ⁓ what occupational therapy is now and how we fit into this space. if is out there looking for solutions that they are not afraid to kind of reach out and collaborate, there's a lot of work left to be done. And if there are any OTs or aspiring OTs that they feel inspired to be part of the movement. Kailey Waskall: Yes, bring more OTs into the beauty space. we are gonna drop Selena's information in the comments below. So be sure to go follow her ⁓ and out more of her work and see what that was that she talked about earlier. I'm dying to know. Selena: Yay, thank you. Kailey Waskall: Of course. Well, thank you so much for listening today. We really appreciate Be sure to subscribe, leave a comment and rate us so that we can keep the dream alive. Savannah Lofland: And the lights on and don't forget to follow Selena. Her socials will be down below. Selena: Thank you guys for having me. Kailey Waskall: Thank you, bye. Savannah Lofland: Thank you for coming. Selena: Bye.