Kailey: Beauty was never designed with disabled people in mind, but we're here anyways. Ashton: I'm Ashton, disabled beauty creator. Kailey: And I'm Kaylee, an occupational therapist. Ashton: And this is Accessibly Ever After, where we talk all things accessible beauty, inclusive design, and what it really means to make beauty work for real people. Kailey: Welcome, welcome back. Today we are going deep into the well again. This is our new episode format for this season where we take one brand at a time and really get into The products, the packaging, what actually works and what still needs work from an accessibility standpoint. Today we are diving into a fragrance brand, drumroll, please. Ashton, What brand are we doing today? Ashton: today we are getting into all things fragrance with Alice Brooklyn. I am so excited to talk about this brand as someone who owns quite a few fragrances from them, and I tend to recommend these to All of my disabled baddie friends. So Kaylee, tell me a little bit about Ellis Brooklyn. Kailey: Yeah, I also tend to recommend these fragrances often, Ellis Brooklyn was founded in 2015 by B. Shapiro. She was a longtime New York Times beauty columnist, but she had also written for Vogue, Vanity Fair, InStyle Glamour, Yahoo Beauty. And she started while pregnant with her daughter, Ellis, and they were living in Brooklyn, hence Ellis Brooklyn. Ashton: The name. Kailey: And per her, she said she couldn't find luxury fragrance that was also non-toxic. Now I'm gonna be so for real. I don't quite know what that means. Ashton: This is not the hill All the clean Kailey: Yeah. Ashton: beauty, non-toxic be I'm sorry, get out of here with that. That's not that is not the hill I am dying on. I, if that is your hill, if that is your journey, that is personal and that is yours to hold on to. But it is Kailey: I just Ashton: not mine. And I think it's just like perpetuating this we it just something feels weird about it, you know? The like clean beauty of it all, the non-toxic of it all. I don't, something feels off. Kailey: Well, I think so I understand wanting to know what is in products, right? Like wanting to know but Ashton: Same. Transparency of ingredients. Yes. Kailey: But I I have a hard time because non-toxic clean, that's not a regulated term. That's a marketing term. And Ashton: It's not yes. Kailey: so it creates this like fear mongering idea that like if you're not using only clean beauty, you're like spraying toxins into your skin. And that's just not how anything works. just not how this works. Ashton: That's just not how this works. Yeah, I I I wholeheartedly agree. I also agree that like, you know, ingredient transparency is important. And I think when we're talking, like when we're kind of having this conversation, I can see it from the angle of I'm thinking of my folks who are maybe very sensitive to scents or specific ingredients. Maybe my folks with like things like mast cell activation syndrome. Like I can understand or wanting to know what is in your products. And that is kind of where where I draw the l like that's that's about as far as I Kailey: I can understand why, like you said, wanting to know the fragrance ingredients. And I feel like it's hard to come up with quick short branding that says, like, hey, we're talking about like having minimal ingredients so that you know exactly what's in here and so clean just feels easier to say, which I understand. But specifically non-toxic gets me, because I'm always like, what do you mean non-toxic? Like if you're gonna be able to Ashton: Yeah, like there's a certain connotation there, you know? Kailey: if you can buy something in store, y you can use it safely as like a general thing, right? Like it depends on your specific needs and whatnot. But in general, they're not putting like poison on the shelves. And there's also that whole Yeah. Yeah. Ashton: Right, like these products go through testing. Hello? Kailey: And there's also the whole like Dose versus like, yeah, there's certain ingredients in certain products that can be lethal in this certain condition with this high of a dose and blah blah blah. But it's normally something that like you'd have to actively try, right? Like you Ashton: Right. Kailey: can technically drink too much water and kill yourself. Like that's you can. You can. But Ashton: Okay. We've taken a journey on this podcast already. Kailey: the but the amount of water that you have to like. drink within a certain time period to like mess up like basically like yeah yeah but the amount is like crazy Ashton: Yeah, it's like your electrolyte balances and all those things. I actually do know this. from lived experience. Kailey: so anyways I just like get annoyed whenever brands talk about non-toxic even though like I love the brand like I love Alice Brooklyn Ashton: Yeah, I think Kailey: I love say beauty is another one that I think they do a lot of like clean branding and like I I get it Ashton: Yeah. Yeah. There's there's a lot. I think I think it's okay to have that caveat too. Like when we're presenting brands and talking about products with you guys, you know that we're gonna give it to you straight. We're gonna give you the good, the bad, the ugly. We're gonna tell you how we feel because if there's one thing Kaylee and I have, it's opinions. Kailey: Yeah. Ashton: I don't know what it feels like but it feels weird and I don't like it. I can separate myself from that and the fact that their fragrances smell wonderful. I love their packaging. I really want to get into some of these different like their their current product line like what they have available. And right now, obviously the most popular is their Eau de Parfum. And beyond that though, they have a lot more products that I think even I didn't necessarily know about. They have their little oil rollerballs. They have perfume miss, which I feel like those are really getting a lot of popularity lately. They have body Kailey: Mm-hmm. Ashton: oils. So they there's there's really a lot of products across the kind of fragrance world. Kailey: Mm-hmm. Ashton: But all all in all, they have a ton of scents too. Like they really I when I was going through this, I was like, wow, I really did not realize that they had as many skews, as many fragrances as they did. So I Kailey: Ja Ashton: I would love to talk about I I would maybe what about why don't we start with Kaylee? Do you want to talk about like our favorites? Kailey: Yeah, that sounds fun. And just so everyone knows, B did work with a perfumer or does work with a perfumer called Jerome Epinette. He's also known for his work with Byrd. And they create these like very cool combinations. And B has said like she really wants people to like almost like a I think it's like a story, right? Like they really want to like get you in to the world, and on and have like all these different experiences with scent, which is kinda cool. Kinda cool. Ashton: I think it's so cool. you know, the the way we talk about fragrance and how it can really help with things like memory. So so many of us are like, no, I absolutely cannot handle fragrance and that's so valid and so real. But I think for f fragrance for a lot of us, it is i an escape. It's something that makes us feel good. It's something that, you know, helps us hold on to memories and So I really want to go into that talking about fragrance as an experience and as a whole, but I would love to know, Kaylee, from Alice Brooklyn's line of current scents, what are some of your favorites? Kailey: Okay, my number one favorite is Deer Sky, which yeah, it's so Ashton: It's one of my favorites. Kailey: one, the packaging is like iridescent. so I Ashton: It's so beautiful. I forget about that. Kailey: I like immediately wanted to buy it from just the packaging, like the coloring of the packaging alone. But yeah, Ashton: Marking will get ya. Kailey: it also smells really good. It they describe it as a juicy, peppery, fruity floral built on unusual fruit notes. So that is like Totally my vibe. The top is rhubarb, strawberry leaf, honeydew melon, and bergamot. The middle is pink pepper, white peony, and ambrette musk. And it's just so good. So good. Ashton: It's so good. It's a beautiful scent, truly. It's it's one up there in one of my favorites. I tend to wear it a lot in the springtime. I feel like Kailey: Mm. Ashton: lately I well wait, what are some of your other favorites? Kailey: what's interesting is I've been wearing Isla Serena often. Mm-hmm. Ashton: Yeah. Kailey: Which when I first read it, I was like, I don't know, because they call it like sweet. They call it a salty sweet tropical gourmand, and you know me, gourmands and me don't normally align. But because there's so many fruit pieces to it, right? Like it has the lime, sea salt is great, banana papaya, ginger flower, Ashton: Yeah. Kailey: tea like it has these different things that kind of cut that sweetness. Ashton: Yeah, I was gonna say there's a lot to break it up there. Kailey: Yeah, and it just truly it smells like a yummy beach to me in a good way. Ashton: Same. I feel like I own that one. I tend to struggle with coconut forward fragrances, but I don't find this to be too coconutty, which I really do appreciate. So if you're looking for a fun summer fragrance that is, you know, a little sweet, a little salty, little spicy. I feel like you could get behind this whether or not you love the smell of coconut. I really get a lot of that banana scent in there and the lime. I feel like I feel a lot of that when I'm wearing it. Speaking of summer fragrances, guava granita is truly, my gosh. It is so good. It is just, it smells like a freaking fruit bowl. Like, I I don't Kailey: Yeah. Ashton: know how else to describe it. It is so fruity and so beautiful. If you love a like juicy, juicy scent, I would say that this one is very juicy to me. So it's tropical guava and melon dissolving into a creamy vanilla almond milk with top notes of guava and banana, middle notes of mango blossom, fresh melon. Coconut and base notes of vanilla, sandalwood, and almond And it is truly heavenly. It's got that nice balance of me over here, like I love my milky fragrances. it's got Kailey: Mm-hmm. Ashton: that nice balance of the creaminess. It's not powdery. I would say it leans much more creamy than powdery, and it's it the other part of it is that that juicy aspect. So highly recommend that. sunfruit is honestly beautiful, and I was really surprised when I first tried it because from the notes alone, I don't know that I would have just like picked this up and purchased it myself, but it was sent to me in PR, and it is a creamy fig and jasmine. So the top notes are fig, bergamot, plum leaves. And pear. The middle notes are jasmine, Kailey: Mm. Ashton: cyclomen, oris, and orange blossom. And then the base is amber, vanilla plantifolia, musk, and coconut. And I don't really, don't get a lot of the coconut, but I love this kind of tracks for me because I do tend to love fig and bergamot in my fragrances. Kailey: Hm. Ashton: of course vanilla, that's like a given for me, but I feel that one surprise me. they just recently came out with vanilla rice, I think we talked about vanilla rice in a recent episode, but I would love to try it. It just sounds I don't know, we we talked about this. It's another like skin musk kind of milky fragrance. Kailey: Mm-hmm. Ashton: and it's a very powdery scent with toasted rice and cherry blossom. I love toasted rice as a fragrance note. this one is toasted rice, Frisia, mandarin, middle notes of cherry blossom, coconut milk, jasmine, nectar, and the base notes of vanilla, skin musk, and tonkapine. And that just sounds really lovely. I could see this one working for like year round too. I know we often talk about fragrances and we're like these are. very like seasonal. I can kind of like picture which season I would wear them in. but I feel like you could give away with that one you know across the board. another one I've tried me just yapping away Queen's caramel it's if you don't like gourmands that one is not for you. Queen's caramel Kailey: Mm-hmm. Ashton: is so s almost like sickeningly sweet. I think it's really beautiful for layering in the fall and winter. I think this would be too cloying. I well I know for a fact it would be too cloying in the like the remainder of the year. I can't picture being out on a hot day wearing Queen's Caramel Kailey: Yeah, no. Ashton: personally. But it is it is still beautiful. Kailey: Have you ever smelled Myth? I have Ashton: Yes. Do you have it? Kailey: no, I haven't smelled that one, but it sounds good. Ashton: It's I think it is their number one bestseller and maybe their first fragrance they ever came out with. So yeah, it's I think I think that is their most popular fragrance, is Myth. and I I could be speaking out of my ass here, but I'm 99.9% sure Myth was their first fragrance. Kailey: they describe it as an airy jasmine and musk floral that smells like fresh out of the shower with notes of ambrette, bergamot, cassius, pink lotus, jasmine, orchid, musk, white cedar, and patchouli. And I I kinda wanna smell like a myth. You know, I wanna smell like I'm like a otherworldly. Ashton: Yeah, I would and this is really I listen, I'm notorious for blind buying fragrance. If I feel like the notes are safe too. I th I'm actually really bad about this. with that being said, I think you know this speaks to the importance of our retail spaces being accessible to all Kailey: Mm. Ashton: folks and all bodies and all experiences. Because you should really have the opportunity to get in and smell these fragrances before paying, you know, $115 for a full size fragrance or even $30 for a travel size fragrance. I think it's Kailey: Yeah. Ashton: it's so important to get in and be able to smell those. they are in both Ulta and Sephora. one of my greatest tips with fragrance if you're like embarking on a fragrance journey is getting a feeling for maybe what families you enjoy, whether that's more, you know, clean, like shower, shampoo-y kind of fragrances, whether it's more milky fragrances, whether it's fruity. Whether it's more gourmand, just kind of having an idea of of what family you tend to prefer is a really good place to start, especially when again, you're looking at this gigantic list of fragrances here. Like there's so many to get into. I was just looking at the fragrances too. I really want to try B now. it's a honeyed boozy gourmand that smells like rum-warmed honeycomb. Like I that actually made my mouth water a little, and I feel like in the fall would be so beautiful. I know some people are like, I do not like the smell of boozy fragrances, but the top notes are dark rum, divana, middle notes Kailey: Mm. Ashton: of honey, brand absolute, and cinnamon, and base notes of vanilla bean, cacao, and sandalwood. I really like that. I also feel like this was another one that would like lend itself really nicely to layering. We don't have to like every fragrance family, as Kaylee can attest to, as someone who absolutely will not try a milk fragrance, no matter how many times I tell her about them. Okay, and then you'll hate them. Kailey: I mean, I'll try it. I'll try it. I'll smell it Ashton: but you know Kailey: and I'll go, that's not for me. Spritz it on me, sure. have a question for you. Ashton: what? Kailey: Do you prefer Ashton: Okay, so valid. Kailey: have one signature scent or multiple, like just whatever the vibe is? Ashton: know a lot of people, you know, have different feelings about this, but personally I love exploring with fragrance. And you know, I do enjoy when I go on a trip getting a new fragrance to kind of, you know, associate with that trip. I love, playing with fragrances seasonally too. I would say that there's a couple that, like, if you know me, you know, and listing those out right here, even though this is a dedicated episode for Ellis Brooklyn. Dead Cool's Extra Milk is one of those. And Burberry Goddess is another one of those. Both really beautiful and I tend to reach for them quite often. But it's like a it's an if you know you know, because otherwise I'm playing around with fragrance. I'm trying everything. I'm combining multiple fragrances. What about you? Kailey: I want to so badly to be the person who is like the chic woman who Ashton: yes. Kailey: has her own like her signature scent, and she's got this like sick, she's just a signature, right? Of herself. I'm not. That's Ashton: Right, she's cool. Kailey: not me. I love playing around with different scents for different activities, for different seasons. I have like got a specific scent for my wedding that I wear sometimes on anniversaries. Ashton: I love wait, what is your wedding fragrance? Kailey: it's one of the Chanel ones, but I don't remember the exact name. Ashton: no, but I love that. I think I again I feel like it's so I know there's studies out there, but just like talking about the way that we associate scent with memory, I think is so beautiful. And that's why I also love that they talk about these fragrances and talk about this brand and their fragrances as part of like a journey. Like they want to take you Kailey: Mm-hmm. Ashton: on a journey. They really want to bring you into the world. Because it is like I feel like fragrance is so experiential. Kailey: Yeah. I really feel like be the founder took that like to heart when she was making these, like really, really being in the moment, finding fragrances that almost like ground you, grounding you Ashton: Yeah. Kailey: like pull you back into the moment and really like get you, I don't know, just like there is so fun. So, so fun. Ashton: we have to talk about the packaging can we maybe talk about the boo tomato tomato first? I want to talk about the perfume mist, because I know you've dug into this on Kailey: Mm-hmm. Ashton: your socials. And I Kailey: Mm-hmm. Ashton: think it it's so they were repackaged and I really want to talk about like what what your initial thoughts and then what maybe you discovered along the way. After after the fact. Kailey: So you want me to just describe the video? Yes. So basically Ashton: Yes, I do. Kailey: the perfume mist got repackaged into this triangular shape packaging that online looked really cool. And I was looking at it and I thought to myself, wow, a body mist with rounded corners. This is gonna be super accessible. I'm so excited. I went into a Sephora and I grabbed them and realized They're really big, which is great from a like money cost perspective, right? Because Ashton: Yeah, affordability standpoint. Yeah. Kailey: they are $26 to $39, like depending on the size. And so I had the regular whatever big size it was. but I could not get a good enough grip to get the cap off in one hand. And then when I tried to like hold it and get my fingers onto the actuator, it was like just not comfortable. and so I was like, Okay, me as an able bodied person, this I cannot recommend this to. Like do and you own one of these, right? Or you Ashton: I own I think all of them because I'm on their PR list. So I since the repackaging I have received them all. But I I also agree I l I love that they're larger from a price standpoint. I think that these are a really great option and I think you know Kind of with the the economy, we're kind of seeing the those recession indicators of brands coming out with 50 billion perfume, like body mist and hair mist. And so Kailey: Mm-hmm. Ashton: I feel like following suit here, they used to be in this like glass packaging, which had no corners and was completely round, and they were like tall, so they were also not super stable. So I didn't like the packaging before either. I'm gonna be so for real with you. it just felt delicate, like I it too easily broken and not necessarily the most accessible either. They were very tall. but these I also agree that I feel like upon first impression I was like, maybe these will be more accessible and you can get a good grip. I don't feel like you can get the best grip on these because they are Kailey: Yeah. Ashton: so big. Kailey: yeah, and this is where it gets tricky in that. I typically say, like, yeah, built up packaging is great, right? It gives you more surface area to hold on to. You need less strength. but what happens is if you build up the packaging, but you keep the dispenser the same small size, that's where you get challenge in being able to like hold it and then extend your finger to press, but you're already like using so much of your grasp on the product that then it becomes a little bit more uncomfortable. So I think if they had kept the built-up size, but then they had adjusted the actuator to bigger or to be easier to like get to and spray, we'd be having a different conversation right now. Ashton: Right. And I think from a standpoint of like, yes, I feel much more comfortable throwing this into something like a bag and not worrying about it breaking. some of the things regarding the repackaging were helpful. And they did actually do that because of feedback from their community for the same reason they were like, we don't these luxury bottles are great and everything, but we don't we want something we can just take on the go. I do love that they responded to their community and like repackage their products because we know Kailey: Mm-hmm. Ashton: that that's quite an overhaul to their perfume mists currently come in banana milkshake, first date, forever pistachio, love palm, marshmallows, miss strawberry, new crush, and vanilla scent. you know It could have been a win here. I feel like that wasn't necessarily something they were considering was accessibility in this. And and so that is what it is. But it I am glad and I I do love to be able to say when brands are, know, doing their social listening and paying attention to their community and adjusting and making improvements upon their packaging or their formulas based on what their community is saying. I think that that is important. And I also think that's exactly what lends itself to potential improvements in accessibility in the future. Kailey: when we're talking about the perfume mist, there's two sizes. So the full size is the one that we're currently talking about, the 240 milliliters or the 8.1 fluid ounces. I have not touched the 90 milliliters, the smaller one, Ashton: Not either. Kailey: and that looks like it's going to be a better. size comparison than the large one. So I wonder Ashton: Yeah. Kailey: if the 90 milliliter one is actually more accessible because it is still that triangular packaging, but a little bit shorter so that you might have more room to kind of press and dispense. So I would definitely recommend again, this is why I would love them to have both sizes in store. Ashton: I was gonna say, yeah, and so I need you to for science go back and do a follow-up on your video and try one of the smaller ones. Kailey: I need to see if the if they even have them in store though, 'cause if they don't, like I don't wanna blind buy, know? Ashton: that's so valid and so fair. let's move into What I would consider to be the good. I would love to talk about their eau des parfums. And ca Kailey: Mm-hmm. Ashton: can you kind of from your perspective and just from your experience, can you share what that packaging is like? Kailey: Yeah, so I think the biggest part of it is the cap is a magnet. Like that is Ashton: Yes. Kailey: a hundred percent hands down the best thing about it. the magnet holds on nicely, but it's not too hard to pull off, right? Once it's finally opened, you do just have that typical actuator, but that cap is really what makes it stand apart from other perfumes on the market. The body of the product is Again, kind of like a faceted rectangular shape. It looks to me it's very similar to the KLE body. Mm-hmm. Ashton: Kaylee, yeah. Kailey: with kind of just like that rectangular shape with the corners with facets. But it does, I mean it it goes really nicely in your hand. I love the magnetic cap and then the actuator is pretty typical across all fragrance brands. Ashton: Yeah, no, I I feel like you covered it. I definitely wanted to talk about the facets because I do think that makes it sit more nicely in the hand and you know gives Kailey: Mm-hmm. Ashton: you those corners and gives you more grip points on the product. But I I know like I was looking at some fragrantica reviews and there was someone this made me laugh. Someone said that the magnet was strong enough to yank security tags clean off. So I guess that's really like subjective. I I don't think Kailey: Yeah. Ashton: it's personally I can use it. I don't think it's too strong, but I think it depends on your level of strength. I would rather that than like threading onto like a screw top or like, you know, even Kailey: Mm-hmm. Ashton: those that are just kind of like on there, having to like pull those off. I don't I don't love that. So I really do prefer the magnet. It's also satisfying. Like, let's be so for real. It's satisfying. This is definitely a case of accidental accessibility. And when we're talking about accidental accessibility, for those of you who may not have been exposed to the term, it's really when a brand, has features of accessibility, but they there was really no marketing or any outward like intention necessarily that we know of, anyways, from information that we have. for the product to be designed for accessibility or for the disabled or chronically ill community. So this is really a case where I feel like this was made as a design choice, as a more luxury brand to have this, you know, magnetic packaging, this faceted packaging. But is, you know, helpful meeting the needs of our community. Kailey: I recommend this product pretty much all the time. I'm pretty sure it's one of the fragrances on my Accessify database. And if it's not, I'm gonna add it right in there. The Eau de Parfume like what they're most known for, but they do also have fragrance oil rollerballs, only three of those, which again, rollerball, love that. But then their perfume mist we hit on and talked about. Their body oils are just like a twist cap pour into your hand. and then their like travel size of their Ashton: Yeah. Kailey: fragrances, not the rollerballs, are just typical, yeah, they're they're like any. Ashton: Round, yeah. Round, same actuator. Kailey: there any other packaging. So when you're looking at it like overall as a brand, I don't think it was intentional to be made more accessible. Ashton: do you think they're afraid to like say that? Kailey: Yeah. So unfortunately, I do think that if a brand opens the accessible can of worms, they're opening themselves up to criticism for the entire line, right? And I think this is where you get that fear of because people on the internet are rabid and are mean. And Ashton: Yes they are. Kailey: so even if a brand came out and said, like, we specifically design this to be more accessible, there's going to be a lot of potential backlash Ashton: Yeah Kailey: of people being like, well, what about everything else in your line? And so I can see where that would be challenging. I think if brands are nervous to take that first step, a great first step is just to start having more disabled people in your marketing. Because that's again one way where you don't have to come out and say, like, this is our accessible line, if that's not where you're putting your money right now, right? But if you're able to bring people on through the product development process that you're coming out with like a new product, right? If they were reformulating the body mist or repackaging the body mist, bringing some disabled people to the table to say, like, okay, how is this working? Because they did work with their community. And I think it's Often just becomes a thing where they don't think about it, right? Like you don't, which Ashton: Right. Kailey: people are overall slowly becoming more and more cognizant. But I can see the argument that brands are afraid to come out because that means that they have to be completely perfect or they feel like they have to be perfect. Ashton: think I think you make yeah, I think you make a great point. I feel we talked about this, we touched on this in Dr. Julian Sass's episode, but just like the importance of getting disabled people in the room as early as possible is so important because we know for a fact that Overhauling your packaging later is so much more complex. It takes so much more time. It takes so much more money. So, really, I think that you're right. That's a great place to start. And like, even beyond that, you know, working with disabled creators, having disabled models, but you have to walk the walk and walk the talk. Talk the walk the walk and talk the talk. Leave that in there. I feel like you have to do both. I think there is room to, and this is important Brands often, I feel are afraid. So I could I could see the argument there to of getting it wrong. And I think that one of the things that our community can sometimes do, and I'm just speaking from personal experience here, is we tend to immediately, yes, you're right. Like we're immediately asking questions from a criticism lens, like why. didn't you make this choice? Why are the other products in your line not accessible? Like there's just so many things that they do, it is a can of worms that they open themselves up to. So I I think it's important to note here too that that's why it is so important as a community to embrace brands as much as we can and as embrace when they are actually making an effort, when they're making an attempt, even if they don't get it a hundred percent right. I mean, if they do something egregious, okay, fine. But like if Kailey: Mm-hmm. Ashton: if they're making an effort, if they're making an approximation, try to encourage that and not shut it down. Share if you're comfortable, share private feedback with the brand. Don't drag them aco across God's green earth. Like, I I think that's so important because it can be so scary to put your neck on the line like that as a brand, I would love to see them working with disabled creators. I would love to see more disabled models and not just during something like disability pride month. Like Kailey: Mm-hmm. Ashton: I I we have to go above and beyond that. Kailey: I feel like, and this is completely anecdotally, but as more new brands are coming to the market, and this also probably goes along with what the trends are, right? Of the packaging, but we are seeing more organic packaging Ashton: Yes. Kailey: and we are seeing more matte packaging. And so When brands are starting from the ground up, we are seeing a little bit more, in my opinion, naturally accessible packaging. And whether that's from our advocacy, whether that's just because organic packaging is in right now, I have no idea. I think it's really exciting. And it just shows that again, like you said, from the beginning, you gotta be doing this from the beginning. And if you're not, there are other avenues in, but it's gonna be more expensive. Ashton: It's gonna be more expensive. It's gonna be a lot more complicated. It's gonna take so much more time. Make it easier for yourself, you know? And like Kailey: Yeah, yeah. Ashton: that's really that's really the perspective that we're coming from. But I really I want to leave this on a high note. in the context in the grand scheme of the fragrance world, there are so many fragrances out there. We're constantly on this podcast talking about all the new fragrance launches, and and that's a repeat theme. Out of all of them, you know, there's a handful I would really recommend like regularly to my audience, to my community. Ellis Brooklyn is one of those brands. And so that's why we're here today. don't want to discount that at all. I I think it's so important to talk about these brands that do have these accessible features because sometimes it's just a matter of not knowing what's out there. So I would love Kaylee, I I think we kind of address this here today and I would love to know if you agree with me, but I would say our overall rating of the brand is that this is accidentally accessible. Would you agree? Kailey: Yeah, I would agree. when you're looking at the SKUs, they have a few that are that accidentally accessible. And when we're comparing across fragrance brands, these are, like we've said time and time again, a type of fragrance that I often recommend to people. Ashton: So thoughtfully accessible, accidentally accessible, or not accessible at all. We'll let you decide. Either way, take what works for you, leave what doesn't, and we'll meet you right back here deep in the well again soon. Love you, Kailey: Love you. Bye. Ashton: bye.