Bianca: There's a conversation almost every pregnant woman has, ⁓ usually alone, ⁓ usually in her head, ⁓ before she has to say it out loud.

Rose Soffel: the announcement conversation, what to say, when to say it, and how to say it without losing something in the process.

Bianca: I rehearse mine more than I've rehearsed almost anything in my 15 year career. And I'm someone who presents to boards for a living.

Rose Soffel: really tells you something doesn't it? the thing women are most nervous to at work isn't the difficult performance review or the salary negotiation it's this.

Bianca: Today, we're getting into all of it. The legal reality that most women don't actually know, the data on what happens when you do tell, and the question nobody asks in that room, but probably should.

Rose Soffel: But we think it's something else entirely, a capability shift, and we think it's time to name it and to talk about it properly. I'm Rose, coach, consultant and researcher completing a Masters in Organisational Psychology. because the announcement conversation is framed almost entirely around logistics. When are you going? How long for? Who covers you?

Bianca: But what's actually happening in that moment is so much bigger than a handover plan. And we think it's worth saying that out loud. Welcome to the announcement.

Rose Soffel: using research, lived experience and honest conversations about what sustainable high performance actually looks like when your identity is shifting. So let's start by talking about your experience. How did you find it? What was your process you were planning it? Talk us through it.

Bianca: mixed emotions because you have the practicality, so thinking about how you're going to tell it, when, what your plan is going to be that you're going to bring into the room, and then of course you have the emotional side of things which is the real acknowledgement and emotional processing when I say that am pregnant, I ⁓ am going to be perceived differently, no matter how understanding my employer is. ⁓ no matter who I'm telling the news to, things are going to change. So I was on a personal level, incredibly nervous. I rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed. And then in the end, I landed on just having like an opening sentence that I clung onto. And I really hoped for the best, but I felt like I was going in as one version of myself and I would leave as another. And I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that's exactly what happened. I felt very anxious. I felt hypervigilant, which I'd love to know more about, neuroscientifically. And if I could go back, I think I would tell myself in that moment that I didn't need to go into that conversation with all the answers because I felt like I had to go to my boss with a whole plan mapped out. I am pregnant, but it's okay. It's not a service disruption because this is what we're going to do. And this is how it's going to look. And I really wanted to almost be high performing in one of the most vulnerable conversations, certainly of my career, if not my life. So there was a real juxtaposition there of logistics, emotions, anticipation, anxiety. And it was a very big milestone for me. It's not something I think I'll ever forget. And I know that a lot of women have a similar experience. So I'm glad we're talking about it today.

Rose Soffel: you too. And there are two things you said there that really got me thinking. So first of all, you said you went in with a plan. So to me that sounds like, and we will unpack each in a second, but it sounds like you went in with proposal as to how this will not disrupt the business. And then secondly, you spoke about judgment and perception and how you're perceived. ⁓ And that... from the conversations I've been having as part of my research and through my coaching comes out loud and clear. Almost every woman that I speak to about this feels a need that almost to apologize to their boss, to apologize not to be celebrated. And actually there was a really good example of one person I spoke to as part of my research. She said something on the lines of like, I'm so sorry, you're gonna have to recruit. And her boss actually turned around and was like, that's not your problem, that's mine. And I think that's a really unique experience. Thank you all for joining today.

Bianca: If you've taken something from this episode, we'd be so grateful if you shared it with a friend.

Rose Soffel: We'd also love to hear from you. Find us on Instagram, TikTok and LinkedIn. And please share your questions, comments and experiences. This is a conversation we want to build together. most bosses normally, you know, lean into the plan and the logistics and are asking for the person going on maternity leave to handle that as well as everything else that they're doing. So I thought that was a really refreshing take on it. And then the perception piece, which I think is really interesting, conversations I've been having is comparison to...

Bianca: Until next time.

Rose Soffel: if a man ⁓ announces him and his wife are planning on starting a family this year, or if him and his wife are expecting a baby most of the time that's greeted with excitement, that's brilliant, wonderful, ⁓ because in most mind, is not going to disrupt the business. ⁓ But when a woman goes through it, it is almost that logistics disruption that's having to be navigated. So it's almost like a man could go and have a baby tomorrow, we could have had one yesterday, and you would never ever know. But with a woman, you can also see the physicality of it as well. So it's not something that can be hidden. And that visibility creates that judgment, and that's really impossible to switch off. ⁓

Bianca: think that's so well said. There is the kind of confrontation of the physicality, but the idea that somebody could have that conversation with their boss and their boss take accountability for the logistical side of things is so remarkable to me and absolutely anomalous. with all the people that I've spoken to and the experiences that I've also had. So I'm impressed by that. And I'm wondering, as you say in your research, most women were rehearsing this conversation with overthinking it, arguably. What do you think we're actually afraid of? Is it the reaction? Is it the change of perceptions I mentioned? Or is it the act of almost making it real by saying it out loud or a combination of all of them? I'd love to understand. what your take is from the research you've been doing, and also neuroscientifically what this hypervigilance is, because we know in matressins, we are on high alert. Threat response is up. So do you think that's the driver, or do you think we legitimately should be afraid?

Rose Soffel: there's a combination of things. So let's start with the the neuroscience behind it. So we've spoken before about when you're going matrescence how the grey matter in your brain changes ⁓ and here's what's wild. At the exact moment you sitting that room ⁓ having this conversation, your brain is mid renovation. So a 2025 study found that 94 % of the brain's gray matter is changing during pregnancy, 94%. So that's all starting to change at this point. And we've spoken before about how that's that pruning, that fine tuning. we know that we're going through that we know that ⁓ as part of that matressence piece ⁓ It comes with this heightened threat response. So your brain is recalibrating to protect this tiny human. So everything feels more frightening, including work. And that threat response is why so many women become convinced that the maternity cover is going to end up taking their job. So it's not insecurity, it's neurology. I've got a lovely quote here from a researcher called Emily Jacobs. ⁓ And compared the changes, that fine tuning piece, ⁓ to Michelangelo chipping away marble to reveal David. ⁓ So not losing your brain, you're being refined, which I think is a really lovely way of putting it.

Bianca: That is so beautiful. And what you've also said there around it is an insecurity, it's neurology, is so powerful. Because I think that not only do we go into this really nervous, in our heads afraid, but then we also beat ourselves up for having those emotions.

Rose Soffel: Yeah, and I think as well as the actual neurological changes that are happening, There is the perception that when women become pregnant, they become less engaged, they become less capable. We know that to be absolutely inaccurate, but there is still that judgment. When someone becomes a mother, they switch off slightly at work. And I think when you go through that announcement piece, like you said, you're going into it knowing that there's going to be some sort of judgment, some sort of bias towards you now that you're a mother. Maybe that is a promotion being kicked down the road for you. Maybe you're talking about working on big work, ⁓ let's deal with that when you come back. ⁓ So I think as well, there is piece around ⁓ knowing that you're going to be probably treated differently from that conversation there on. out so I think what you were talking about there going into it really demonstrating how capable you are, how well you can plan, you you're working twice as hard and if we're talking about kind of the male experience of that is they don't have to, they don't even think about that, it is completely different. Yes they go through protrescence and it is a different shift for men but it's not the same and then if you look at the data to back this up, One in four women experience a negative or discriminatory reaction when announcing their pregnancy at work. 54,000 women a year in the UK are pushed out of their jobs as a result of pregnancy discrimination. 77 % of mothers report negative or possibly discrimination experienced during pregnancy, maternity leave and returning to work. And even through some of the conversations I've been having through my research mostly is that Some women have had the experience of when they've announced their pregnancy, they felt that their leadership team, their boss has become disengaged with them and trusts them with less, doesn't give them as much autonomy and... Unfortunately, you know, speaking about the other earlier, like that's my problem, you know, I'll deal with that. ⁓ is ⁓ Yeah, a lot of women do not experience it that way. And I think that if people understood, and I know I've said this before, and I'll probably say this as a broken record every single episode, I think if people understood the strengths, the capabilities that come with matressence when you become a mother, like it's the one of the greatest leadership courses that you can go through, honestly, and I think if that was better understood in workplaces, women would have a completely different experience of it.

Bianca: We would, we as the person delivering the news would go in with more confidence because we would be able to articulate. These are the skills that I'm going to be gaining and this is the contribution that I know I'm going to be able to make in a more profound way. And the recipient of the news would also have that awareness of the capability increase and how actually focused the person in front of them is becoming. So I'm completely with you on that. And I think that we can categorize the different responses that women get into a few different buckets. I think you mentioned there, absolutely, the quite rare, sadly supportive conversations where there's a shared responsibility taken on board that says okay we're gonna figure this out together I'm gonna handle the logistics how can I best support you what do you need then there's the response of nothing's going to change, which I think comes from a place of reassurance, but is actually very reductive and dismissive. And then, as you say, the one that I think a lot of women get is centered around it being your problem to solve. When do you think you're coming back? How much time do you think you're going to take? What are your thoughts on cover? And I can say hand on heart, when I went into my conversation, I had mapped out for the absolute worst case scenario and I probably seemed quite on edge because I remember my boss, CEO of our company, saying we'll figure all these things out as we go. Congratulations, take a moment. And I was firing ahead, getting straight into this is my thoughts on fractional cover These are my thoughts on how we can continue the rebrand process and it won't be interrupted. And I must have seemed like I was going a million miles an hour. ⁓ And I think if we look those three categories of response, It makes me wonder what the research and what your conversations say about what actually makes women feel safer in that moment. Would you say that it's the words that are being used? Is it the follow up, the process? What do you think speaking to employers who receive this news? What advice can we give them from what you've learned?

Rose Soffel: So way that the first conversation lands is not a small thing. It actually sets the entire tone for the maternity experience and the return as well. So I think just understanding that that is the first conversation of many. You don't have to have it all solved. You don't have to have it all figured out in that first conversation. But from a leadership perspective as an employer, if you have somebody... going through that, don't go straight to, what are we gonna do? We've got this big project, we're supposed to be doing this, you were supposed to be in India, we were supposed to be doing, you know, X, Y, Z, whatever that might be. What does this look like? What about your team? Are you still gonna hire? Like, leave all of those questions until after this first conversation. This conversation, this first conversation should really be about that person, that woman going through this experience, who is gonna become a mother, and that's so exciting and huge. Like, it's a huge shift. not just in work and your brain developmental shifts which you speak about, especially if it's someone's first child. That is a huge, completely different way of living and being. You'll never be the same person again. that first conversation is really about person speaking to you. So don't pay attention to your emails, you know, be really present in that conversation. Listen, congratulate, like this is a really exciting and huge time for this person. So just start with that. This is a huge life milestone. First child, second child, third child, whatever this might be, it's still a huge milestone in this person's life. ⁓ And will change and just know that you will figure that out together as you move forward, but also know that this is not a conversation where she's telling you, this is not her handing in her notice and quitting. is not her giving up, this is just the next chapter of her life. So I think that's a really important thing, as a leader just understand that this is huge, this is something that's going to be, you can work through together. ⁓ So I think that's really important to start with, just ⁓ make this first conversation all about that ⁓ the announcement and just congratulating, reassure them you can and talk to them about how you are going to work through it together. This doesn't have to be her burden. I appreciate that you might not want it to be your burden, but you'll figure it out. And I think just having that real honest conversation, just saying, we don't know what it's going to look like yet, but we'll come to that conclusion together. We'll work it out later down the line. Do not make the first conversation about logistics. Do not start saying, we were supposed to do this, this and this. That changes the whole Tony experience. she's already got a heightened threat response, she's already feeling vulnerable in this conversation. just let it be her telling you on her own terms, just reassuring her that you'll figure it out together. You don't have to have all the answers now. It's not her to handle on her own.

Bianca: I think so, and I think if I could go back, I would say to that version of myself going into that, you're not announcing that you're leaving. You're actually sharing that you're about to become a better leader. I just didn't know it yet in that moment. And it's not an absence. It's not that it's a huge inconvenience. I'm actually announcing. that I'm about to develop skills that cannot be taught in any leadership program. It's the ultimate MBA. ⁓ I'm going to be developing empathy, risk awareness, efficiency under pressure, decisiveness. The brain is an upgrade. ⁓ And I could have walked into that room armed with that knowledge and belief, I think it would have made a big difference to

Rose Soffel: And if I could have walked into that room armed with that knowledge and that belief, I think it would have made a big difference

Bianca: Going back to this point around like not making it. all about logistics, I think that can work on both sides. So the employer definitely not going straight for that, but us also as the mothers to be or the mothers for having their next pregnancies, not thinking that we have to go into that. Of course, you can commit to a plan and say, look, I, I'm really keen to get everything together by X date, but give yourself a bit of grace, give yourself some space, some time with this. And that actually brings me on to my next point that I wanted to raise around timing. So By law in the UK, for our British listeners, you don't actually have to tell your employer you're pregnant until you're 25 weeks. Interestingly, a lot of women do tell their employers within their first trimester. What does that gap tell us about the pressure that women feel to be transparent before they maybe even had a chance to process it themselves? It's interesting. I know for me that I was showing quite early on. I have a 90th percentile bump going on here. So it was quite hard to conceal. And I also felt like it was a Christmas party coming up and the timing was just right. I think I was around 18 weeks. when I told and I couldn't have waited any longer. But what are your thoughts on the timing? What have you heard from women about this? As I said, legally you don't have to tell until you're about 25 weeks but is there an ideal time? What should our decision-making around this look like?

Rose Soffel: think that's a really good question and I would say that it depends. psychologists answer there for you. But I think it really depends on the context of your role, what you're doing.

Bianca: Yup.

Rose Soffel: but also how comfortable you feel. And there's a lot to say about cultures and leadership and role modeling within organizations that will influence that in a positive way, but will also influence that in a negative way. If you don't see any other senior female leaders in your organization, ⁓ with children. If you are in a culture where presenteeism is rewarded, know, seven till seven in the office or later, being out all the time for client drinks, work drinks, that might take a little bit more time because that could potentially be a huge shift in the way you're working as well how might perceive you going forward. So ⁓ I think leaders can create cultures of psychological safety, having high trust environments. if something does go wrong, you ⁓ feel comfortable enough speaking to your leader. You might want to tell one or two people in team earlier on. ⁓ It really depends on you and what you're comfortable sharing and your circumstances and the context of your role. But what I will say is that organizations and leaders can play a positive part in this by creating cultures where people feel safe and comfortable to share and come to work and be, you know, who they are. And role modeling, I've spoken about role modeling before, but it's absolutely critical.

Bianca: bringing that humanity into the conversation. We talked about not getting into logistics, but what questions can they be asking? They can be asking, what are you looking forward to in this pregnancy? How are you feeling? But emotionally, how is it for you? How has it been so far? What have you been grappling with? Bring that into it. We know that women are statistically more likely to announce earlier to their direct line manager than to HR. which suggests that the personal relationship really matters a lot more than the formal process. Of course, when you start getting into it with HR. and they give you your, if you're in the UK, your MAT B1 form that you get typically at your 20-week scan, it does get very corporate processed and that can remove some of the emotions. So you've got an opportunity as a leader receiving this news to humanise it in that moment, to strengthen that connection. And it feels like a missed opportunity to me that we're overlooking a lot. So there's a lot to work with that around how we as women can come into these conversations. Yes prepared, but I would say and I argue not overly prepared. Yes, remembering that we have rights. This is a really big point for me as well. Women throughout the last 100 plus years have fought for these rights. This is your legal right to be pregnant, to be protected somewhat, and to have this conversation with the confidence that you are allowed to have a career and to become a mother. And I wish that I could go back and give myself a bit of a pep talk on that. So I think we've talked about like the whole concept of logistics and overly planning. We've talked about the perception shifts that It's inevitable. The perception is going to change. So let's bring that into the room rather than being afraid of it.

Rose Soffel: absolutely right there. So the science says your brain is building capability. The workplace says you're a logistics problem. of those is wrong and it's not the science.

Bianca: It's not the science. I mean, that's a mic drop moment right there.

Rose Soffel: And there's just one thing there that you were talking about that I want to go back to, and that is how women are more likely to tell their line managers their directors first before HR. And that speaks a lot to relationships ⁓ connection piece that you have with someone. You've built up trust you've built up that relationship with them. Then let's think about the rest of the maternity experience. It's almost, and we've spoken about this again before, about HR being that bottleneck.

Bianca: Yeah, please. Thanks.

Rose Soffel: it's almost handed over to HR. So that humanity you had in that conversation and that relationship you've had with that, manager, that all kind of disappears, on your HR team, but you're just then connected to HR to go and deal with the rest of your maternity, to fill out these forms, to sort out your kit days. And that just change in dynamic ⁓ is something women can find really isolating. and just really unsupportive. So I think that's a really important thing to just to ⁓ highlight there that if you are a leader, whilst HR are dealing with the logistics and the process of it, you can still have those human conversations. You can still talk to them about, you know, starting to get them ready to go on maternity leave and talking about what communication might look like for them, how comfortable they would feel with emails. I know we're going to talk about maternity leave in more detail, but I think what I really want to say here is just don't then hand over the baton to HR to deal with. Please still keep that human connection because that's so important.

Bianca: It's so important. And I think the conversations that I had telling my team members felt arguably as important because I did have this. niggling voice in the back of my head that I was letting them down. You know, I announced my pregnancy at a period of time when I was also hiring and I will have two new hires joining my team as I go on maternity leave and during my maternity leave, which of course, let's be real, it's not ideal. I'm under no illusion that those team members could really do with me as their line manager, being in the office and being around. But again, bringing that humanity to even saying to team members with some vulnerability, leading from the front, I feel conflicted about this news because we have so many good things going on. The timing is never going to be right, quote unquote. and not apologizing. You mentioned earlier around not saying sorry and how many women feel the need to apologize. I was biting my tongue, Rose, to not say sorry in of these conversations.

Rose Soffel: You have nothing to be sorry

Bianca: It ⁓ right

Rose Soffel: for.

Bianca: But ⁓ felt this obligation to say, I'm sorry, I know the timing. And I said to myself, do not apologize. Don't bring that into the room. But it was there in the back of my mind and it was on the tip of my tongue. And so I definitely had that. But yeah, speaking to my team members about it and bringing it into the light for them, that was my role modeling opportunity to say, I do feel vulnerable about this. I do feel that there's a lot that I'm having to juggle and balance and process. But I wanted to tell you. And there were some beautiful moments too, because when you bring that vulnerability into it, I think you give people a real opportunity to connect with you. So why don't we apply that same rationale to that leadership conversation? It's because of our fear of the shift in perception and every single bit of content that we're putting out there, every conversation that we're creating, everything we're contributing to in terms of the broader discourse here. My hope is that we can start to help shift. the perception shift and we can start to actually influence it positively.

Rose Soffel: Honestly, I couldn't agree more. And imagine how powerful that could be where high performing working mothers were not the exception, but the rule again, I know that we have briefly spoken about before, but if you ⁓ were to absent from the business for any other reason, ⁓ whether it be grief, whether it be you've had an accident, you've had to go to hospital, you wouldn't. apologize and say I'm sorry. Like these things happen and I know it's not the same thing. But if you were to be from the business for any other reason you wouldn't feel the to apologize. ⁓ So why should we apologize for family planning? Society are asking for us to have more children. We've spoken about this before, the falling fertility rate is all over the news right now. So why are we not creating environments where women can perform sustainably? I think it's a bit of a miss, if I'm honest.

Bianca: It's a total mess. And anyone listening to this who was about to go into that announcement process, who's been in it, maybe you're having your second, third, fourth baby and you're going back into it. you're walking into that conversation, ⁓ think my practical advice would be firstly to remember your rights. This is not an apology. This is not you suddenly inconveniencing the business. This is you sharing some really special, exciting news and creating a deeper connection to your employer and to the business. Don't forget your rights, your legal rights here. So once you've announced, your employer actually must carry out a pregnancy risk assessment and think about ways of supporting you, working adjustments and more. You are entitled to paid time off for all your antenatal appointments from the moment that you tell your employer. So that is another reason why an early announcement can work in your favor practically, particularly if you're struggling with a lot of sickness as many women do. and you actually can't be dismissed or selected for redundancy or treated unfavourably because of your pregnancy from the moment you announce. Discrimination before the announcement is almost impossible to prove. And there's a whole piece here as well around redundancy and pregnancy, which we will be talking more about. But there's a protection that women have fought for over the years that you will be bringing into that room with you. So as lonely as it can feel, as intimidating as it can feel, of course, your hypervigilance is sky high. Remember those things practically. Emotionally. Try and reframe it in your mind as best you can to say that this is nothing to be ashamed of. What you are announcing is a neurological upgrade. It is an enhancement of your leadership skills. You are sharing. My focus is increasing. And in many ways, if that employer receives that as such, my loyalty to this business is probably increasing too. And I don't know why more employers don't view it as such. I remember saying to my boss, this actually makes me feel more loyal to the company because the way that I'm being held in this, understood in this and supported through it is something that I'll never forget in arguably the most vulnerable moment of my career. So how you're treated during this time. is actually going to make you, if you're treated well, bubble down and want to work harder.

Rose Soffel: it creates that sense of belonging, which is one of the critical ⁓ components employee engagement. ⁓ And I said earlier, ⁓ that conversation sets the tone for the rest of the maternity experience and the return. So being mindful of that as a leader, understanding ⁓ where you can provide support and space to listen as well I think is really important. So yeah we're missing a trick at the moment and I'm really really glad we're talking about it.

Bianca: me too and the through line across all of this is the same reframe I think. Your pregnancy announcement is not the beginning of an absence. It's the first moment actually where your workplace gets to decide whether it understands what matricence actually is and what it's going to do about it in response. So what do we want to retire from this? What are we feeling for retirement, a rebrand? We could be talking about many things here. What are your thoughts?

Rose Soffel: So for me, I want to retire the different perceptions on men announcing that they're starting a family compared to women announcing that they're starting a family. And I would love to rebrand that disruption that is perceived organizationally for women going into maternity leave as something really positive, a strengthening of leadership capabilities, an asset to an organization and... there's a piece and I think again, we can talk about this in another episode around like, do we want equality or do we want equity? And I think if we're talking about creating equality when it comes to pregnancy announcements, having equal perception for both male and female leaders is going to be something I would really advocate for. So that's what I'm proposing that we rebrand today.

Bianca: beautifully said, I'm completely with you. When you're announcing your pregnancy at work, you're not telling your employer you're leaving. You're actually telling them you're about to become a better leader. You just might not know it yet.

Rose Soffel: this is why having these conversations are so important because the more leaders and more organizations understand matressence, the change, the identity shift that comes with it, and also the strengthening of leadership capabilities, which aren't just like random capabilities by the way, these are the ones that the World Economic Forum are saying for the future of work. These are the capabilities that we need. We need change adaption, we need resilience, We need all of these capabilities, many of which are strengthened through So if that is recognized more widely across organizations, we will stop letting women walk out the door, feeling less confident, less than. ⁓ which is currently what's happening to a lot of women. They feel that lack of confidence. They feel that I'm not the same anymore. And no, you might not be the same in this exact same way, but you are stronger and more capable in so many other ways. And it doesn't mean you've lost the capability elsewhere that you previously had. You've often just not been using them for a few months when you're coming back into the workplace. So that gets me really excited for our episode that we're going to talk about maternity leave and returning from maternity leave as well.

Bianca: Me too. And I want to end on a note to say that there's no right or wrong way of doing this. And that also goes to how you announce it to people in your broader life. If you announce it online, what that looks like, tune into what you need. And then go into it with as much confidence as you can, because ⁓ you are more protected than they think. ⁓ And ⁓ you are going to be perceived differently, but change doesn't always mean loss. It can actually mean there's a lot to gain. And that is certainly the case here with matressants and what you are going through. So thank you, Rose, for what you've shared.

Rose Soffel: you're so welcome. And I know I said this earlier, but I want to re-say it because I think it's really important. the science is telling us that your brain is building capability. The workplace is currently telling us that you're a logistics problem. One of those is wrong and that is not the science. So what we are hoping to change through these conversations is that workplace perception because it is not a logistics problem. as you said, this is a capability upgrade.

Bianca: Perfect note to end on. Thank you so much.