Rade: Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the Player To You podcast. I'm your host, Rady Stresovlovich, and I'm joined by frequent co-host and special guest, Jennifer Lane.

Jenn: Hello everyone, it's good to be back.

Rade: It's good to have you back here as always. all right. So not a lot of news this week, just still some fallout from the big Xbox layoffs last week. I I'm seeing protests organized at some of the Bethesda offices in in outside of in Maryland and also in Dallas.

Jenn: I just read something that there's some in other places as well. And I can't remember. I want to say that there were some places in Montreal, maybe.

Rade: Yeah, it could be. and so it just seem these look like they're being organized by a couple of the the the unions and they're they're just talking about how it like it's it's pretty terrible. I'm looking at a sign now. somebody's holding up it says no devs, no games, which I mean, duh is pretty obvious.

Jenn: Just made actually when I was on LinkedIn last week, someone was talking about all the layoffs, and there's been a lot of people that said, Hey, this looks just like in the 80s and 90s with gaming when it almost disappeared. And I said, It's not that because they were doing shovelware back then trying to get games out and they were really poor quality. And I said, This is about the people that are building them, but what's gonna happen? You have all these people that are People are gonna start up their own companies. It's great, but a lot of people don't know how to run a company and know how to make a game. And then you have these bigger places that are laying people off that need still need to get the games out. And there's a a path where I think in a couple of years the quality of the games is gonna be pretty poorly reduced, at least in some cases, and we could From there go back into the death of video games that happened last century.

Rade: Yeah, I you know, I think that's a real risk. I I don't know if we'll get into a a a death of games. I mean, we do have you know, the indie game scene now taking up a lot of slack. But for a lot of folks that were working on these bigger games, you know, I think you know, specialists are are going to be harder and harder to to to find because they're gonna have moved on and done something else. and so you're gonna see a lot more rise of generalists again. But it's weird. I was just looking at a report. there were two point three billion dollars worth of acquisitions in Q2 of 2026, 54 transactions, highest level since 2022, which is kind of crazy. You're like, yeah, you look at that, you're like, well, what's going on on that? And then you dig a little bit deeper and you see, all right, it gets skewed a little bit. Like Scopley spent a billion on Loom. and it's you know, it's they're they're a smaller mobile

Jenn: Huge.

Rade: Publisher that most people haven't heard of, but you've probably seen an ad for their game and probably played their game. They do a lot of these fun little addictive, arcady type of game puzzle type things. so I think that's skewing it a little bit. so I don't know. I mean, just I just don't see a lot of appetite for acquisition. I'm not even sure anyone's gonna want to get acquired after the bad tastes in the mouth from all the Xbox acquisitions and disgorgements of studios.

Jenn: Yeah. I think people are still gonna want to get acquired because that's really good money and it also helps protect the studio. What I hope people do is in the contract phase put some protection mechanisms because of what's been going.

Rade: Yeah, I think that's a that's that's a really good point. we talked a little bit, David and I, recently about how there's a number of smaller startups. Well, I mean, all startups are small, but a number of startups that are preaching sustainable development and growth. And I think we're gonna see more of that. I think a lot of people, particularly veterans who are just kind of sick of the higher fire boom bust cycles, are gonna prioritize stable. smart growth over sort of let's just like get the money while you can and and you know and and just grow, grow, grow and and we'll worry about the consequences later.

Jenn: But what do you think that's gonna look like sustainable growth in reality?

Rade: Well, that's a that's a really good question. I think that takes us into nicely into our topic for the week, where we're going to talk about how how do you manage creative teams? Right. And and the first thing, and why I think managing a creative team is different than a lot of other teams ties into sustainable growth, is people need to feel like they have a safe space to let loose, be creative, and experiment. And if you're worried about, well, I only get two tries to get this right or I'm gonna get fired, you're just never gonna stretch and do your best work and be creative.

Jenn: One of the reasons I became a producer, because people, you know, I had a background in science, so it's very organized. but one of the reasons that really as a career in gaming that I became a producer is when I was elite designer, I could not handle mentally where I have to say, I will do this in two point three days, instead of just saying, give me a date you need it, and I will get it done. So I can understand that if you are like really super locked in to that perfunctory this you have to do this and you have to do this in a certain way, it stifles your getting into the flow and just doing stuff. And that's not to say you shouldn't be cognizant of milestones, because everyone needs to be cognizant of milestones, but you have to do it in a way that helps support the creatives and not push back on them into a more formal way, if that makes any sense.

Rade: Yeah, it it does. Right. So like I I've been a big proponent about transparency. it's part of my management style. I'm very open. Like, if we're if we're working on a milestone and it's really important, like our product could get canceled if we mess this thing up. I I don't want to spook everybody, but on the other hand, I think they need to know what the stakes are. And so how you message that and and channel that that concern about, this is really important.

Jenn: They do need to know.

Rade: What can I do as somebody on the team to help make sure we deliver on this thing? Like that's it's another thing you could do when you're managing these creative teams.

Jenn: Yeah, and i I think you're right about the messaging is so important there. And I don't mean like being political about the messaging, but it to approach it in a way of how can we work together to get this done? What are the risks so that way you can kind of suss out X, Y, and Z. Okay, in order to hit this to so we can be successful. We have to focus on these things. And maybe these other things aren't as important and try it goes back to you and I've talked about this before, getting back to the core critical things that builds a great experience.

Rade: Yeah, and and to do that, it there's a lot of experimentation. There's no clear path from idea to great product that you're delivering. And like I've I've never shipped a game that was identical, even a very short game, to the idea that we had at the beginning. We always try things, you discover things and and what works and what doesn't. And to when you're managing a creative team, we talked about giving them a safe space to work, but it's also giving them room. giving them room to experiment. And I saw a guy on LinkedIn, I won't mention his name, made a post to everyone who was talking about starting up a new studio. It's like, make sure you have someone in your leadership team that loves money. Right. So they want to be responsible for doing this. And they they say, all right, we have this budget. It allows us to do things within that budget, but like you also can't infinitely iterate And then run out of money and be surprised if you go out of business. Like that that's just a disaster. So someone needs to be looking at that and being like, hey, you know, maybe you want to start corralling the problem, make it make the solution space a little bit smaller rather than experiment on everything at the same time because we just can't afford it.

Jenn: Experiment on the things that really matter. I once I had a this is a very long time ago, and I had a fairly new designer, very new to the industry, who was very creative and really smart about things, and was kind of doing some skunk work stuff that he thought would be really great for the game and he wanted to test it out and see it. The problem was that the stuff that was due wasn't getting done. And or was getting done, but it was kind of just kind of thrown together. And I told and I didn't want him to stop doing the thing he was super excited about. I said, just focus on this thing first. Get it good, get it clean so you can hand it off to others, and then spend the rest of your time working on this idea you have because it it it does sound sound, it could be great for the game. And he he took that in and understood it in a way that he got. very quickly back to being super productive, got exactly what we needed for the thing that was due, and he made a lot of progress on his idea that turned out to be a sound wound and we wound up putting it into the game.

Rade: Yeah, it it that makes me think about constraints, right? and and how do you constrain a game? And I think that's an area where a a someone who's experienced managing creatives understands how to provide constraints that are logical and make sense without stifling creativity. Right. Cause like it like it's easy to come in and be like, you will only iterate on this 10% of the product and nothing else. But if it's like But that just feels arbitrary and weird to most creatives. and like folks who have never built a game or have never worked in a creative field, I just don't think get that.

Jenn: Yeah. I think one of the the tricks is to kind of steer that creativity towards the thing that needs to be done the most or the thing that is one of the more important things because sometimes I've seen where someone gets really excited about something and it's a great idea. But it's not gonna have an impact on anybody. It's it's oversized compared to the return on investment. It may be like a tiny piece of the game, it may be like a travel sequence, and it's those are the things that are difficult. How do you work with people? And I'm interested in hearing from you how do you work in those confines when someone's very excited about a particular thing that is just I don't mean just move the needle monetarily. But is gonna it's not gonna engage people, even though it's a great idea.

Rade: So I've had this issue, and I'm I'm gonna apologize in advance if I generalize and offend any of my friends or or or people who have spent time working inside of Blizzard. but Blizzard for a long time had the ability to take as long as they needed to to make a game work. They they had executive buy-in from that, they had the financial resources to support that. And

Jenn: Yes.

Rade: It worked very well for them. they built some of the best games in in history with with that that system, but it never worked anywhere else because no one else had that sort of combination of of of executive buy-in and the deep pockets to fund that. And as a result, if you took a designer out of it, and focusing just on design right now, outside of Blizzard and plugged them into almost any other game company. they would struggle with without some of that ability. And so like I've had this conversation about, you know, where to invest in things. And and I gotten the pushback, like, well, you'll never build a a 90 metacrit a game if you if you cut corners here and there. And and I and I get that argument and that's often right. But in other areas, you look at like how where in the user flow is is this going to be? How many people are likely to see it?

Jenn: Yes.

Rade: How many people is this for? Can you easily explain it to people? Can you demonstrate it succinctly? And when you start walking through exercises to do those things and the feature fails to do any of those things, usually the light bulb goes off in somebody's head and be like, yeah, I see where they're coming from on that. But like just a hard no without taking somebody through that path. That that a creative person is just gonna bristle at that kind of pushback.

Jenn: Yeah, and I'm sure you probably read this, but the book Play Nice that's about the rise and fall in the future of Blizzard goes into detail of when they did kind of move from do whatever you want, take as much time, to we've got to get out the door and and it was not a slow transition, it was a very it was a very hard turn and how the teams reacted to it and it was not great.

Rade: What I there's I I reference this thing a lot to to folks when we start talking about constraints. If they just want to on teams that I've led, just so that we have a common framework. I think you, like a lot of people, loved the remake of Battlestar Galactica, when that came out. your silence is either you're politely saying, No, I hated that show, or you do agree with me. Okay.

Jenn: No, I I liked it. I did like it.

Rade: The showrunner of that and producer was a a gentleman by the name of Ronald D. Moore. He also happened to work on Star Trek Deep Space Nine when they did some of their best episodes. he's doing for all mankind now, which is absolutely awesome. If you haven't watched that, watch it. and and he's done several other shows as well. But he did a keynote at GDC 2006 called Building a Battle Better Battlestar.

Jenn: Not

Rade: Where he goes in and describes some of the things that happened that introduced constraints that made the the show better. And the one that I always take away is they wanted to have all CG Cylons, you know, the terrifying battle robots that they show occasionally in the show, but they could not afford to do that. And so they were forced to come up with an alternative. And that's where the idea for human Cylons wa was born. The the the this the the six or however many there were, I forgot five or six, that really set the show apart and were so integral to everything. Like, was that person a silent? Is it not? What's going on with that? And they they took it so far that they had to cut corners on it that if you look at any piece of paper or notepad on it, it has the corners clipped off and it looks like an aesthetic design, like they just do like octagonal things. Like, no, no, we literally had to cut corners to to make this show work. Which I think is absolutely a brilliant thing to put in.

Jenn: It you know, going back to the creatives, it's not just saying, Go do everything, here's your constraints, it's engaging with the team and being part of the team to help them along the way. Not in the ISOR on we're gonna watch you and how come you're not producing, but you're informed to see how things are going because in your example, they looked at the money and said, We can't do this. In game development, I've seen it multiple times, you don't have that moment of clarity of we can't do it until the the project is so far down and you don't know how to dig yourself up. And that's when you're talking about constraints, it getting to that early, I think, is key to trying coming up with those alternative plans. And one of the things that helps with the team, you know, I always like, what problem are you trying to solve? When you start to see it and realize something's not possible possible and it's something the team is behind, bring them into the system, including one of the things I've done is we've got this problem, we can't do it this way. We have to get this out the door and start brainstorming what alternatives could we do that will work and you can still get excited about and it's still a great experience at the end.

Rade: Yeah, and and I think the industry for a long time has enabled very bad habits. there the games were like very, very profitable for a long period of time. and and a lot of them still are. And so, you know, if you're working on a frontline triple A game and you're like, Okay, we're close, but we need another five million, you like you're gonna get that money. And like that money's gone now. And so the entire way of thinking of of how you were building things has to change. Like it it's fixed. Like, or if there is that money, it's very expensive to get it. And you probably don't want it because it's almost radioactive with how expense you know, some of the things attached to it. so we got to get better at that.

Jenn: Yeah, yeah. And you and I have both been in positions, I think even on the same projects as time, where we've had that, okay, this is gonna be delayed, throw some money at it, but also on the projects of there is no moon room no room to move on it. You've got to get it out the door, you've got to get it out this date, that which is also really difficult.

Rade: Yeah, and I think that kind of gets back to that find somebody on your team that loves money. Like you should be having those discussions all the time. I mean, one of our guests we had on here a while back, Laurent, who is my finance guy at KickSi that I partnered with, we would go through the project pretty regularly about where are we? What are we spending? What what are we seeing coming up the next couple of weeks? And he would kind of he would build this model out for us so we could see, okay, are we kind of like Here's a spike up on the project now, but we think that's a one one time thing on spending. We think that's gonna go down and or we're pulling ahead some spending for later. And he would keep us on an even keel. So we just didn't get surprised when you know, I I mean, I don't know. You've probably done this where you go out to a restaurant and you're having fun and then you get the bill, you're like, whoa, what happened here? you you don't want that surprise.

Jenn: Yeah. So in the case that you were just saying, how did you take that from finance through the team, through production, through development?

Rade: we had a pretty open discussion about what we were gonna focus on and we talk about general priorities on the team. and you know, we would get like the huge list of like here's all the areas that we want to focus on. I'm like, Great. We're gonna draw a line and say realistically with what we've got on the team right now, this is how far we think we could get down the list. and someone would always usually make an argument if the list we had 20 things on it and We drew the line at at five. They're like, well, the sixth thing is really important. We're like, I agree. It's more important than anything above the list. And sometimes it was, and we'd move things around. But where the real magic happened, where someone came and was like, you know, I think we could get most of the benefit of this thing if we redid it this way. And it would cost way less. Either time, it's always time, because time and people that like that's how you get to to money spent. That would be the magic. And that only happened because we were openly discussing what we could afford to do. And I it was never necessarily a money thing. It always I translated it to time and people. Well, we can't find five more people to go do this. What can we do with what we've got?

Jenn: Think one of the important things that you just pointed out is the line can move. And that goes back to staying engaged with the whole team is as things happen, sometimes things become more difficult and you have to make decisions. sometimes things get easier, sometimes someone has an idea that's more important, and being adaptable and having that movable, you understand the whole product or the whole f whatever you're working on. Say it's a a big feature. And all the things that go into it to understand holistically everything that's part of it, understand what's critical, and being flexible because time and people change. So you were like, we just lost a week, someone got hit by a bus. How are we gonna manage it? You do know what the next best thing to do is, or you do have those conversations. Hey, is there a different? Is there an easier way of doing this? Can we cut down a little bit? So you can move that line up and down and still have a good sense of the product and work with that product and understand what it's gonna be like. Play the product as you're doing it, but being able to not be so tight on the schedule, that's where you run into some of these money problems. If you have to have everything all the time, always in the same spot. be some flexible. I was on once on a project where we literally walked locked ourselves into a room, all the leadership team locked ourselves into a room with a wall of stickies. And as the team was having learnings or developing stuff and either had something that came in better or all of a sudden it was at a risk, we moved those stickies around a couple of times a day. And we knew some of them were the ones those can't change.

Rade: Yeah. And and you know, the other thing you're thinking about responsible management of creative teams is really making sure you don't grow the team too quickly. And this is also makes a sustainable team. Big teams move slow. And sometimes that's fine and you have to because you got a lot of stuff to build. But like if you need to move fast because you're iterating on your core loop or something's not working the way you thought. And you got too big, you got problems, and you gotta do something about that.

Jenn: Big teams. I was once at a AAA with hundreds of people. I won't name the company or the studio. And someone came in, it was about live service. And they're like, why are things going so slow? Why can't we make change? And it was around that time that giant ship got stuck in the Suez Canal. And yeah, and I said, We are that ship.

Rade: yeah, the evergreen one.

Jenn: And so to make progress, we've got to figure out how to get that ship unstuck and it's a really slow process where smaller teams sometimes you move so fast it's it's almost hard to keep track of. because you're just going and doing. And they all have they both have benefits and disadvantages.

Rade: Yeah. Yeah. There's pros and cons. I mean, the sm the the small team communication certainly gets easier. I think that the the bigger teams, you need to to be a lot more communicative and deliberate about your communication. You can't just rely on on osmosis. It just doesn't work anymore. you know, like I I've it's tough because we often will get into this sunk cost fallacy of a product where you get too far and something's not working, and you're like, Well, the finish line's almost there. I what do I do? Do I like I I don't want to lay off half the team and go back small again? Cause like, how does that work? and I think this is a really good place where building with the community while you're building the game and exposing it early to people to get that feedback can save you so much like like heartache and just help your creatives just get.

Jenn: Yes.

Rade: I mean, God, you've done theater stuff before live performance. So you understand like getting that audience feedback is is critical. And like why do you have to wait till the end for that if you can get it earlier?

Jenn: Yes. The other thing is if it's really not working and you're this close to be bold and say it has to go. And that's one of the hardest decisions you have to make. But ultimately it's best for the teen. There's sometimes you can only beat your head against the wall so many times where you're like, no. And that's one of the biggest risks. It risks time, it risks money, it releases risks releasing. but that can also make a difference, and that's a hard decision, and not everybody is willing to do it.

Rade: Yeah. It made me realize something just hearing you describe that. something I've always tried to do with my teams when we make a decision for a pivot or we cancel something like that is to be have a very clear discussion about why. Why did we make this dis this decision? and it drives me nuts to get backseat drivers who say I told you so. And so I'll explicitly tell my team, it's like, if you think we're making a wrong decision with the information that we've got now, please speak up. if you think we're being stupid, please speak up. There'll be no judgment on that. But what I can't abide by is your silence and six months later saying, I I knew this was wrong. You guys were stupid to do this. I just I will not tolerate that.

Jenn: Yeah, but I think you and I are both really straight shooters and very honest and very open with teams. Not everybody is. So I understand why people are uncomfortable doing that and afraid to do that. and I I I you know, I have always tried to encourage my teams of I'm really opinionated, but my opinions can be changed. and kind of instilled the, you know, come at me bro with it. And a and they learn to trust over time, but not everybody is like that. And I know you're the same way. Because I worked with you and for you. And

Rade: Yeah. So I I had a boss. Yeah, it it it if you can't make that argument, it's like so I'll give two bosses that I've had that gave me really good ad advice. So when it comes to decisions, there was a gentleman who used to be the group VP that ran Maxis and Westwood Studios at the time, it was Luke Bartolet. and yeah, great guy, really, really sharp.

Jenn: Make me believe. I know Luke.

Rade: He said something that I find true that things are well understood, are easily explained. And if you can't explain the rationale for a decision, you probably don't understand why the decision was made. And and and that that's I think good advice. The other one was from my boss who at at Meta, Jason Rubin, who co-founded Naughty Dog. He says, You should have strong opinions that are loosely held. and that's to your point, be you know, be able to be convinced that you are wrong and something else is better. but also don't have it it really is. and and you and I, one of the reasons why we've gotten along is like we just never take it personally. Like, you know, we have a discussion about the thing that we're talking about. It and and the better idea

Jenn: Like that. Yeah. Because it's better for the product. Yeah. Well I take it personally, but I get over it.

Rade: You well, you you it's not like, you know, you're sitting there and you're dropping your name calling or anything like that. or, you know, I've also never seen you shy away from a position where you you thought, Well, I think that's really not a good idea. you know, you may do it in different ways, which I think is good. Maybe maybe you're uncomfortable doing it in front of everybody, and that's fine, a good manager.

Jenn: No, no. No, that's the problem. I get in trouble about it because I do feel open to share my opinion about it because I think it's better for the product. And not everyone's willing to hear it. And it's not like I'm like I'm on a grandstand complaining, but

Rade: I don't think anyone like if you're if you if you're managing a team well, I don't think you should let anyone feel bad about that. Now, like there's a point in time where like, you know, you got an hour with an all hands and hashing out one thing with somebody who's a min-maxer we've got on every team. you don't want to monopolize the space and go down a rabbit hole. So you can table that and have follow up. and and that's fine. But like I think people should feel safe to be heard.

Jenn: Well, you also you you kind of touched on this is don't just make a decision and go, that's the decision. Bring the team along, help them understand, and even if they don't agree, I've had to make decisions that I don't agree with as well. And then have to champion them. even if you don't agree is figure out a way to align, move past it because that's what we're gonna do and we need to do it together.

Rade: Yeah, yeah, this used to drive me nuts at at Meta. There's there was the Silicon Valley thing that was going on for a while in tech, the disagree and commit. and it would basically it was the the argument was like, Well, this is what we're doing, just shut up and do it. It was how it wound up being used. I'm like, that is not what that meant. You are using it incorrectly. You're you know, like ha have it out. You don't need to debate it endlessly. At some point, if it's like, All right. Well we have no other data on this. This is our best decision based on what we've got. So I need you to commit to it. Like that's what that's supposed to be, not shut up and do what I told you.

Jenn: Exactly. And there's been a lot of things I've had to make a decision on. You need a decision. You don't have all the answers. You don't actually know if it's going to be successful. But you have to commit to figuring it out. And the other thing too is when things are going really bad and the team's at risk of you know not being a team anymore is you have to still while the walls are falling down, still make progress. And not the only thing that's in your brain is we don't know if this project's gonna exist in the next week. You still have to build towards something.

Rade: Yeah, absolutely. And I and I think, you know, just to close out this segment, I I like I think when external shocks come into the team, either you know, you were supposed to have X amount of money and guess what? Now you've got 20% less, or you thought you had six more months on the product and guess what? You don't. those are really tough to incorporate and help manage a creative team through because it just

Jenn: And that happens on every project.

Rade: It it does. And and like I I don't think there's a single right way to do that other than just being open and having that dialogue and go through and like, all right, what what does this mean for us?

Jenn: Yeah, I agree.

Rade: the the budget one's just brutal because you're like, wait, what? It's like you're building the house, you're almost done, and suddenly you don't have money for the roof, and you're like, shit. Like, what are we gonna do here?

Jenn: I think I've never not been on a project like that and th including projects that got a lot of money over time. There's eventually someone's coming down going You gotta ship it or we lost our funding.

Rade: Yeah, and I think we're gonna see more of that last part with with independent games, just because, you know, it's it no one's gonna continue unless they're seeing signal that the thing is gonna make sense. And so you need to you know, I think you need to get to early validation points, test things out, prove it, and you know, constantly just make sure the thing that you're building is the right thing so that your team has that space to finish it out. And also for God, I've done came on so many products like this and and been asked to help them, don't be the product that just comes in at the last minute and all comes together, because then you're just really making your life miserable.

Jenn: That is scary and common.

Rade: Yeah. All right. Let's talk about game of the week. Do you have one you want to talk about this week?

Jenn: I don't because I have been working on a short term project so I wake up and start working on it and then I turn off my computer and go to bed. What about you?

Rade: So I will not get into the level of detail that David normally gets into to some of these games, but I'll tell you that I started trying out something recently. It's a a game that that is popped up on my my radar because someone was talking about how good Mecha Chameleon was doing. compared yeah, compared to a bunch of triple A games, like it sold 15 million copies. I'm like, yeah, okay, but it's six dollars. So comparing you know, 15 million copies of that to Battlefield that sold for 60. Not quite the same thing. I get your point. But I wanted to check out the game. And so if you haven't seen this one, it's it's $6. It's pretty cheap. And you're basically like this little stick figure dude that has to paint yourself to blend into the backgrounds and and and hide in this. So you need to deceive seekers who are looking for you. It's a friend slop type of game. It's just fun.

Jenn: I have not.

Rade: it's it's well worth the money. I'm glad to see that they priced it at six dollars and are not immediately trying to put it on sale like so many titles are on Steam. I don't think it needs to be. it it if you can't find six dollars, like go look in your couch or something or or just like it's not that hard to earn six dollars. so go do it, check out the game, it's fun. Yeah, right. Find somebody who who who's got it, play it.

Jenn: Right timing. Visit a friend that has a Steam account.

Rade: I I like little simple things like this that have a strong mechanic, but also are just extendable to longer play sessions. Like this is a game I will probably be playing in little bursts for for months. Like I'm I'm not gonna sit down and play it for three hours a night, every night for the next two months, but I'm gonna play it here or there. I don't I think it's doing a disservice to call it a palette cleanser game because that's not what it is. But if you're just in between things looking for some quick fun, like you could get into it and do something entertaining and and just walk away with a smile on your face.

Jenn: I think I need to go download it and stop using something like the power wash games for when I have ten minutes to decompress.

Rade: I love power washing games. I also like power washing in in in real life. And if I could I could afford to do that for a living, I I might actually seriously consider it 'cause it's it's it's very satisfying to clean a dirty driveway in the Pacific Northwest.

Jenn: I love the power washing gigs. Carpet steam cleaning is another one. Love that. Big machine.

Rade: I don't want to go in people's houses. I'm fine staying out on their driveway. I want to go in a house. okay. That's totally fair. I get it.

Jenn: No, I'm doing in my own house. All right, I'll challenge you the next time that you guys invite me to be on. We should pre-play a game together.

Rade: Ooh, three different takes. I love this. All right, that's the homework. All right, everyone. Thanks for joining, Jen. Remind everyone, if you enjoyed this, hit the like and subscribe button down on the bottom.

Jenn: And then report on it. All right. Bye everyone.

Rade: See ya.