speaker-0: Welcome to the second episode of this month where we stand in the circle with cancer together. Today we will hear from two ASA community members whose lives have been touched by cancer. My first guest is Rebecca, a nurse and a mother who was living with a diagnosis of metastatic breast cancer and living fully, living connectedly. A note before we begin, Rebecca also speaks about the loss of her father to suicide. If that's hard for you today, please look after yourself. There are support lines in the show notes. Welcome to Stand in the Circle with me, Dr. Rosalind Watts. I'm a clinical psychologist, researcher, and founder of ACER Integration. This podcast is about how we get connected in a culture that pulls us apart. We talk about the hardest experiences of being human and the circles of care we have needed, couldn't find, and are searching for now with stories from people who've lived it and researchers and practitioners. Healing in community is the old way. The work of our time is to rebuild our connectedness to ourselves, to each other and to the living world. Welcome to Stand in the Circle. Today we are joined with ASA community member Rebecca. Rebecca, thank you so much for being here. Could you first of all just tell us a little bit about yourself?

speaker-1: I live with my family, my husband, ⁓ our seven children, our two cats, our combined seven children. I did not give birth to seven children. And yeah, I do I am not currently working. I am taking some time off to take care of myself, ⁓ focus on my health and my family, and but for work I am a dual certified ⁓ psychiatric nurse practitioner and a child in adolescent nurse practitioner and more recently completed a certification for psychedelic assisted therapy with IPI. So a little bit about me.

speaker-0: Hmm. Thank you. So being pretty busy with a very, very full house and very, very full work. And then in 2020, you were given a diagnosis of cancer. So can you take us back to that time and tell us a bit about it? And it was also the beginning of COVID. And so you experienced the kind of enforced isolation of that time as well. What was it like?

speaker-1: Well yes, that was what a time. so in twenty twenty I was officially diagnosed with with cancer. I think it was just about two weeks into ⁓ the shutdown. So when our part of the world had, you know, shut down and everybody was staying home. So I was also recent very recently separated from my Ex-husband, ⁓ the father of my children, and so was now a single mom, so to speak, and ⁓ living, you know, full time alone with the kids who are also now not going to school. So we're homeschooling and we have cancer and we have a shutdown and supports were just sort of stripped away. ⁓ So I think we all felt that. ⁓ what it meant for me in terms of cancer, one of the the biggest things was having to navigate ⁓ appointments alone. I think that was something that was difficult. ⁓ I wasn't allowed to have anyone with me, really. I think for surgery I was allowed to have someone bring me to the hospital and and that was it. ⁓ so there was a sense of being very alone. ⁓ Within a system that is not so cozy all the time, and within a system that was also afraid. ⁓ you know, healthcare was turned upside down, they weren't nobody was sure how to navigate appointments or surgeries or anesthesiology or anything like that. So it was really sort of it was a lot of unknowns for a lot of people and a lot of fear ⁓ around that the the care itself, I think. ⁓ the other side of that coin, oddly, was with everything stripped away, no extracurriculars, no school functions, no school schedule, ⁓ r no none of my own hobbies, extracurriculars, social functions, things like this, everything was kind of fell, you know. by the wayside so there was a lot of space to to focus on my health and focus on myself and focus on my family and ⁓ take care of myself in a way that perhaps I would not have if life had been continuing as it was. So there was some blessings there also. I was working in healthcare so I was working in a clinic, a busy clinic at the time and And it was quiet. I don't know, you know, we worked in in community health, so it's a very, very busy, ⁓ comprehensive clinic where we have multiple specialties, you know, in one roof, under one roof. And what would have normally been overbooked, we had a lot of downtime.

speaker-0: Around this time you were part of a psychedelic church, is that right? Around this time of life. Some of our listeners will be like, what on earth is a psychedelic church? But I'd love to know about, can you describe what it is and tell us about what kind of support that gave you at this time?

speaker-1: Yeah, I'd love to. So a a friend of mine had this idea of ⁓ starting a church in Buffalo as a project for his he was in school to become a licensed ⁓ mental health ⁓ provider. So this was a project that he was doing through school and decided to give it a go in real life, like not just on paper. So so he did fashion it like a church and I know there are churches in other parts of the world, but this ⁓ this was my first experience with a psychedelic. church and we it really was very much like going to church. We would hold meetings on Sundays. ⁓ there would be we would start with meditation. ⁓ we would have music, we would sing together, we would dance together, we would share. There would maybe be a message or a a a practice that would be offered together and then we would we would have a sharing circle and talk about what was ever whatever was going on. So a very, very close community developed through the church. ⁓ The church has disbanded. We many of us are still very close with one another. ⁓ So that that was a a community aspect of it. When we bring in the psychedelic piece, we did also use that space ⁓ for preparation. ⁓ for retreats that we would have and then we would use the same space for integration. ⁓ each Sunday we would meet, which we continued to do through COVID via Zoom. So we were we were able to continue those Sunday meetings and and share space together. Yeah, so that was that was something that ⁓ a a community who was aware of what I was going through and ⁓ Yeah, it was I don't know if there's even words for how supportive, like how meaningful it was to have those faces and those souls and the people who who who could s who could who could share that space with me, you know. And I think one of the important things too is that to be able to to share the space of ⁓ not just that I'm I'm I'm going through this thing 'cause we're we're all going through something, right? If it's cancer, it's another disease or it's a divorce or other life changing events that we all go through, but that there's a lot of that I carry a lot of lightness with it. And it's something not a lot of people understand or are surprised to hear I wouldn't wish cancer on anybody, but there is there is something, there are gifts here. And so being able to sit with a community of people who could who could share that with me. you know, not look at me sideways and but really share in that experience with me. That's really important.

speaker-0: And so this is a community of people that you journeyed deeply with. So there's trust and there's a sense of real connection amongst you. And so around the time of your first diagnosis, you were having these Zoom meetings on a Sunday. yeah, how long into the process would you say that you first started feeling what you call the gifts and the lightness? How long did it take for that to kind of come in?

speaker-1: Yeah, so I can recall when I went for some radiology after I discovered a lump in my breast and the radiologist was very concerned and and was there was this immediacy to get me in for a biopsy and there was very little ⁓ you know, eye contact or connection or but, you know, we pick up on these things and I could tell this was very serious. So there was a lot of fear initially, and a lot of A lot of fear and uncertainty and confusion. Like how is this h like where you know, where is this happened so suddenly? You know, there's no time to prepare for something like that. So I would say that that fear and the confusion really started to dissipate when when the biopsy came back positive at that point. It was like, okay, you know, this is what we're doing now. You know, this is this is what we're doing and ⁓ I do think too having I have this community and I have ⁓ I had the church, ⁓ and and many of those people are still very, very close friends. ⁓ but I also have, you know, other another other communities of people and to be able to I think ha you know, have people even even over Zoom or conversation or take walks outside. just being able to to share, in my fear with me, you're right. Like not fix it, not make it better, not whatever. But, you know, when we're waiting for a result or waiting for something to happen and then we get the result and it's good news or it's concerning news, it's just to have somebody kind of in that dance with me was really important. And I was fortunate enough to have a lot of that. Yeah.

speaker-0: And then in 2023, you lost your father to suicide. tell us about him and also about the psilocybin journey that you then did after his death. I think a year or so after his death.

speaker-1: Yeah, about a year and a half after was that journey. ⁓ my father was he was a giant in my eyes. He was my stepfather, he raised me from when I was very little. ⁓ my biological father had severe mental illness, he had passed away. and ⁓ so he was an officer for he was an environmental conservation officer. ⁓ and And he was over six feet broad, big guy, served. He just served everybody, right? That's he was always in service ⁓ and asked very little, very little of anybody. And it was a a very big surprise. It was My dad he had been on Prozac for probably nearly thirty years. He went on it for some anxiety, some yeah, you know, and it worked for him and he stayed on it for a long time. And he went to see his general practitioner and he was now in his seventies and she had decided that he probably didn't need it anymore. And so she cut the dose in half and ⁓ a few weeks later he took his own life. So I think that was a piece of it because there was no signs. There was no I mean we all have our demons. And I think that ⁓ in the absence of the Prozac, which his brain adapted to and lived with chemically on board for all of those years, wasn't sure how to work with you know, either his demons or his I don't know. ⁓ so it's remains a difficult a difficult thing to wrap my head around, to wrap my heart around. It's almost like every time I hear it or talk about it, it's a shock again. so when I think about it often I get very curious about what he was feeling and thinking. And those are answers I'll never truly have. Right. And I try to walk myself through his final minutes or his final day. And and I will never really have those answers. So it's kind of a no a go nowhere loop. Right. ⁓ and I think what I'm looking for is his suffering. And I'm looking for ⁓ Yeah, like what was his suffering and did he suffer and and what was he thinking and was he thinking of me and these sorts of things. So it was a very difficult time. I ⁓ I had a lot of depression around that time. ⁓ I was putting a lot of pressure on myself professionally. there was other family things going on, it was ⁓ A very difficult time already. And then when this happened, I really sunk ⁓ pretty deeply. and so I I did mind you, I have a therapist. A very good therapist I've been with for many, many, many years. So there's yeah, a lot of support I did have support. and about a year and a half later I did go on practicum with integrative psychiatry institutes, ⁓ psilocybin assisted therapy program. So I I flew out for the practicum and did partake in in the journey and ⁓ During this experience I was ⁓ really thinking a lot about my father and really looking for some healing around my father and also my mom, whom s really struggles with a lot of her own mental health issues. And I was having a lot of resentment and ⁓ a difficult a difficult time ⁓ relating to my mom and and being in relationship with her. So In this journey I saw I did I saw my dad and it was one of the most be beautiful experiences I I could have hoped for and I saw a figure of my father ⁓ looking like a king. I will just say this. And it was it's very apro because he was in uniform, which he was an officer. And he was in what I could only best describe as ⁓ a kingdom. It was light, it was golden, it was whole and and larger than life. ⁓ he didn't speak, there was no words, but there was communication and what he communicated to me was that that he is whole, that he is home, that he came here and he served, and that h his work was done and that he was okay with it and that he loved me and that he was proud of me. And I couldn't have asked for anything more from him, right? I really I could not have. in the same journey I saw my mom. And this is really so interesting to me because connecting with Acer, I I heard you speak of ⁓ of of viewing people or looking at people as trees and the ways in which we grow and develop and our knots and the way we twist and wind and and ⁓ you know looking without judgment. And ⁓ in this journey I saw my mom and she just happened to be in her body was in a tree and t very twisted, a lot of nuts onto itself, and I saw her almost frozen in the tree. And I I remember looking at her and being able to look at her form without judgment and accepting the way that her tree grew and and also that that is the expression of her life, for good or for bad. You know, this is the expression of her life that that her form took and So there was a lot of release there also around my relationship with my mom and I will share this part in which I shared with ⁓ my my group in Acer, my walnut orchard, ⁓ that at the end of this I I don't know if you are familiar with the Brady Bunch or some TV programs where they the faces kind of kind of come forward. so it's almost like an episode of a sitcom and my my biological dad and my dad and my ⁓ faces came forward and they were happy and they were whole and they were just shining and smiling and from between them ⁓ a rainbow came out and then I was on a bicycle like riding a bicycle and I threw my hands up in the air and I said look I'm like no hands we did it we did it and it and what we did it meant was that the three of them got me here. And noth nothing's perfect, right? Like nothing goes perfectly or is planned, but they they got me here with all the love that they had. And and now I was able to kinda like take my hands off and just say, Okay, I release you. I release myself. So

speaker-0: what a powerful experience and knowing that you were there with your cohort of your other trainees, you're all going through this psychedelic therapy program together. And I know that it's quite a kind of cohesive group and people, you you're another community of its own kind. So you're really supportive with other people that were there around you. And I imagine that was an important part of it as well.

speaker-1: Absolutely. I I the the days leading up to the journey, you know, they're they they feel like, well, how much can you do in two days? You know, and a lot. A lot. In terms of connecting and sharing and listening. and it's amazing because when we would come out of our our journeys, how Many of us shared our individual journey, our individual space with other people, right? And that they entered into our space ⁓ through, you know, compassion, through what they shared, because of what they shared. There was a connection taking place even in in within the individual journeys, right? I always like to look at ⁓ journeying kind of like a lot like life where there in some ways we are on our own, right? We are walking our own paths, but we are not alone. You know, we're all walking with each other and we share space and and so so yeah, a very short time and a lot of closeness that develops during that time. Yeah. And integration. And the integration, you know, even just the short time that we have to integrate at the end. ⁓

speaker-0: you were with people that you knew really well, a close-knit community.

speaker-1: Yes, yes, yeah.

speaker-0: And so at that time then, if I've got the timeline right, it was soon after that that you went back and had a different diagnosis.

speaker-1: Yes, it was. so this was in August that I had this journey and in the end of November I developed some pretty ac acute and severe abdominal pain. So I went to the hospital and that was the outcome of that visit was a diagnosis of the same cancer. ⁓ but metastatic. ⁓ so I was diagnosed with this stage four metastatic, systemic, incurable cancer is what they tell me. So yeah, which I will share that just this week or last week I get my labs regularly. ⁓ and at this time there is ⁓ very microscopic cancer being detected, at least on tumor markers, and I am symptom free and so Yeah, little miracles happening. Yeah.

speaker-0: So this is talk us through then this process from this moment of getting the diagnosis and how you were able to, because you said before that there was fear and then the fear quite quickly moved as soon as you got the biopsy into a sense of acceptance and presence and focus. When you had the other diagnosis that it was now stage four and metastatic, can you remember how that news landed in you?

speaker-1: Yeah. Ugh so much darker, so much scarier. I was in the emergency room and the word cancer was not coming out of anybody's mouths. ⁓ the doctor's residence, you know, and They were seeing things on CAT scan that were concerning and I just was getting this funny feeling. And so I said something. I said, I'm concerned we're looking at cancer. And so somebody finally said, Yeah, that's what we're also concerned. So ⁓ the emergency room set up, you know, I don't know what it's like for you, but you know, they're very small rooms, they can be quite dark. and my husband was with me. And we cried even before the diagnosis came in. There was something about that moment that I had already accepted that this is what it was. ⁓ and knowing if I'm symptomatic that it's probably pretty bad. And I was symptomatic. So, ⁓ it was in organs at this point. ⁓ so I feel as though in those hours in the emergency room, those long, long exhausting hours, lots of tests, that I grieved something very, very big. I was grieving already my life. my children, you know it's so grief often is, you know, not personal, right? It was very quickly not my own life that I was afraid to lose. It was it was my children. It was my husband losing me and and not wanting their pain. And ⁓ It's it's difficult to understand how even in such a short time I was able to grieve such a a a a big a big thing. but I did in a very deep, very dark way in a few hours. And then immediately I was in the hospital for a couple of days. I was discharged maybe three days later. They did a biopsy of one of the lesions on my in my bones. And I was discharged. So I was to follow up after a couple of days after outpatient. And typical me was like, ⁓ there's probably, you know, I grieve this huge, big giant thing, and then I'm like, there's probably another explanation. So So I go to my oncologist alone because I, you know, why would why would I take somebody if everything's fine and it wasn't fine? so when that news was delivered, then I think that I lost touch with my body. I there it was a very disembodying few minutes of, you know, ⁓ crap. ⁓ and then to be told that in that moment there was no cure and that we have treatments and we have some years ⁓ with available treatments. ⁓ so that was walked out of there, got in the car, called my husband, and I think that we isolated ourselves for a few months ⁓ out of necessity, I think. to grieve, to heal, to like really get an understanding of the cancer. You know, there's not a lot of answers right away, it takes time. And I think during those months I think I surprised a lot of people again because I go into action and taking care of myself and meditating and nutrition and moving my body in whatever way I was able to and connecting with people and reaching out to Acer and getting involved and and climbing out of the hole. Yeah.

speaker-0: Hmm.

speaker-1: I think took a little longer this time around. It was heavier. It was a little longer. but coming out of that hole, I think there's more lightness in my life now than there had been in years. Yeah.

speaker-0: So tell us a bit about this process. You mentioned ASUS, you came to us in the wake of this other huge diagnosis and. And it sounds like already that you are very good at community. You've been part of communities. You've known how to. It sounds like you really know what's good for you and that you know how to take care of yourself and you know that community connection is important. So talk us through a little bit about kind of what brought you to ACER and a little bit about what it's been like for you to have this maybe different kind of connectedness than you've had in other communities. I guess like the psychedelic church and also your psychedelic training are more kind of in person but also online as well. with ASA, yeah, tell us about what it's been like for you.

speaker-1: Yeah. I think the first thing that comes to mind is the the the the nature aspect, the connection to the natural world, which over time I've become really good at taking care of my physical body. I've kind of got that under control right now, right? And I have experience with connecting to things bigger than myself. And ⁓ yet there's still up until more recently I've had beautiful connec you know, ⁓ I've I've had beautiful to spent beautiful wonderful time in nature. ⁓ you know, appreciating ⁓ the natural world and yet I didn't Have an experience of feeling myself as part of it, still, right? Despite all of this. And I was taking, so I was drawn to Acer for that reason. I was looking for something, dare I say, ⁓ more feminine, more nature-based. connecting to the earth ⁓ so that I could contact connect to myself that way as well. And then after discharge from the hospital in November, I was feeling very alone, very isolated, very scared, and wasn't even sure how to talk about it with people. And I was afraid to talk to people because s the people who cared about me were having their own experience. And I and I it was so devastating that it was it was har I didn't want to keep devastating people. If that you know, it was it was So I started taking walks around my neighborhood, circling just the same blocks. And I would often go out in the evening and when it was dark, and I would look at the trees that would be illuminated by the moonlit sky, and I would just look at their forms, and I would find that there were trees that called to me. They're all wonderful, but there were some that I wanted to to get closer to, and I would touch them and I Would put my cheek up against them and I would wrap my arms around them or lean against them. And it was such a profound experience that I never had before to be held and not alone by a tree. Never experienced that before. And they became, The thing that I can connect to wholly without worry, without having to to dim anything or filter anything or even say anything. I need to say anything. And so that was yeah, that was a like a new experience for me. And and so when I when I made it into Acer, I cannot believe how now I see trees. I have a very active imagination and I love imagery. So yeah the meditations also in in Acer are really powerful.

speaker-0: And how has it been? Well, first of all, thank you so much. so I'm very touched to hear that and I'm so glad you it's it's always lovely to hear from other people with that moment of first connecting to a tree and realizing how when you really can feel yourself being held in that way by a tree, how how incredible that can feel when that connection happens. And then it's open to all of us. But sometimes we just have to be in a raw enough place that our heart is kind of ripped open. enough that we need to fling ourselves on a tree and when life takes us to that place then the trees ⁓ are the perfect people to fall upon. People? Beings. They're the perfect beings to fall upon.

speaker-1: Yeah, such safety. I just felt so held and so safe and so understood. Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0: Mm. And in the community as well, have sharing circles. So how has that been for you? Because like when I imagine and I want to talk to you about this amazing news that you're saying as well about the shifting of the cancer, which is extraordinary, and I want to hear more. I guess this is more of a recent thing. So in the last month that you've been in ASA, you have been carrying the weight of this diagnosis still. Is that fair to say that it's kind of... How has it been for you, because in the sharing circles it's about hearing other people's heavy stuff as well as sharing our own. What's that process been like for you when you've got so much that you're carrying? not just your diagnosis, but you're still, I imagine, processing the grief of the loss of your father and seven children and all the practicalities of life and everything else. And I imagine just from having these kind of these years of huge health challenges and not being able to work for time, there's just so many practical and logistical challenges of life. So with so many things that you've been carrying, How's it been being in a space where you're listening to other people? What does that feel like?

speaker-1: Yeah, I I it feels quite easy actually. I there's something there I say, I don't know if it's re if the word refreshing is right, but there's something subtling about being able to sit in a community of people where one ⁓ I'm finding that the community of people that I'm speaking and sharing with and listening to there is a ⁓ a a baseline or some sort of level of understanding where we're sharing a language in a way. So there's something even even when we've just met, it doesn't require a lot of explanation to drop into space with people. And so I'm finding that despite what I'm go what whatever my per the personal details are or that my personal struggles and circumstances are, ⁓ it's just one of many, right? And and for me it's cancer. For me, it's loss of ⁓ a loved one. ⁓ But we're all showing up with some grief. We're all showing up with some struggle. And ⁓ I find that to be the thing that, one of the things that is connecting that makes it easier, right? So when I'm maybe showing up, I do ⁓ martial arts, ⁓ I do jujitsu, right? And so this is a very close, high trust community. in we speak a l we speak a language, right? And grief isn't usually something that we talk about, right? So the Acer community is we share a language and not that it's just gr grief, right? It's poetry, it's beauty, it's love, it's you know, it's all kinds of things, but it's a space where all of this is allowed and listening Whether it's it's me or somebody else, it's we're sharing in this kind of s this yeah, this space of this is where it belongs.

speaker-0: Beautiful. I like that idea of a shared language that gets developed between the community and dropping into it feels like you almost just need to say the code word and then you're kind of into that space.

speaker-1: Yeah, I think I was in the first because I says I'm only two ⁓ sec this is my second month in Easter and so I was in the first ⁓ ch ⁓ f ⁓ meetup with my with my ⁓ orchard and it was incredible like how connected we were already. I don't know if we just got lucky and like we just I mean I felt like it was we were old friends, the smiles looked familiar and somebody asked that is kind of a similar question, like is it difficult to to talk about and share and like are we willing to really share and be vulnerable and come right out of the gate? And it was so easy to to for to just jump in and and be with each other in vulnerable shares. it's really beautiful.

speaker-0: I'm so glad you have this experience. so orchards are our kind of small groups that people get allocated to for the whole 13 month process. And yeah, you're in the walnut orchard and it's yeah, and it's people in the same geographical area as well. So you might even meet people. Are there any people that you can meet up with in real life in there?

speaker-1: Talked about it. We're like one session in, and there's just talk about meeting up in Boston. So yeah, and I'm in New York, so this works.

speaker-0: That makes me really happy. this, we have to come back to this because this is just such exciting news and it must just, I can't even imagine how this miracle that you refer to, how that must feel but talk us through a little bit this amazing, this amazing turn in the road.

speaker-1: Yeah, so ⁓ it was a a pretty difficult first few months of treatment and I you know when you come out with a stage four, you know, metastatic disease, they're gonna they're gonna put you right on the evidence-based approach, right? They give it all to you, right? So it's a and in oncology, unlike in other s pract you know, specialties, they don't start low and kind of titrate you up. They kind of start at the highest possible and then if you can't tolerate it they'll come down. So ⁓ so So they put me all on it and I got very, very sick for a few months. And they had to take me off the more the drug that I wasn't metabolizing. They had to take me off of that and let my bone marrow heal and let my liver heal. And ⁓ during that time I remained on hormone therapy, which is the other arm of my ⁓ treatment. And So I remained on that and I was recovering and I made a lot of radical changes in my life, right? I'm working on letting things go, opening up, I'm really looking to connect with myself in a deeper way, in the way that why does it take a second cancer diagnosis? I don't know, right? I don't know. I look at cancer as a signal, right? And it's not it's not a signal just for me. It's a signal for healing. It's it's the cancer. Cancer cells to me are not something I'm battling or fighting. They're not something that I am at war with. They are a part of me. I'm not gonna be at war with my own body. And so it's something I look to as information from my body, saying we are out of alignment. And so I worked in every way I can to bring alignment back into my life through community, through nutrition, through caring for myself in ways. That I never true thought I was, but never truly did before. And so what they found was that my tumor markers kept dropping without this medicine. And to the point where they said, let's see what happens if you want to, if I was comfortable with that. And I said, Absolutely. And so we're now a few months out without this. ⁓ It's a CDK46 inhibitor, so it disrupts the cell cycle of the cancer cells. And I am have like microscopic detection on tumor markers at this point. So I don't know. Is it what I think it's a lot of things happening, right, all at once. And and ⁓ I think that my mindset and I think that the radical changes in my life and I think yes the the therapy I am on still is helping and ⁓ I don't know. I look at it as ⁓ you know, our bodies have millions of tiny little miracles happening every moment. So why can't this be one two? You know, and if we look at if we think about cancer cells, they've essentially lost community. They've they've lost connection, they lost communication, and they are fighting for their survival as individuals. Right? And so I look at That that as just you know I see I know that's happening at the microscopic cellular level in my body, but I look at that as what's happening outside of us also, right? This is the world we're living in right now. And so myself included. So I'm looking to stop fighting for my survival and I am looking to belong, coherence, right, and a connection. within and without right to myself and to the world and ⁓ to the trees and to others and yeah

speaker-0: I'd love to know because you've talked about it a little bit about how the second cancer diagnosis has changed you and you've become essentially better able to take care of yourself and really there have been some really positive changes. How would you describe that if you think about kind of Rebecca like 2018, 2019 and then Rebecca 2026? How are you different?

speaker-1: Yeah, I think even Rebecca between first cancer diagnosis and second cancer diagnosis, you know, sometimes we learn and then we fall. And so I I do think that ⁓ I I do tend to isolate myself. I do tend to go inward and have some ver you know, I I find it too easy to disconnect from the world around me. And so when things happen, we'll say like, can't you know, ⁓ when my father died and I had a lot of other stressors going on in my life at that time, I was in a very dark place. So we're talking not leaving the house for days and not getting dressed and eating poorly. And I have community and I have friends and I have family. I have people who love me and I was really making myself not available. I was not allowing connection and ⁓ That is not who sits here today. I am so grateful for and have so much respect for relationships and feel like I can participate in a way now that is so reciprocal where I don't I think I used to feel ⁓ like I didn't have a right to the love or the attention or the care. I wasn't able to receive that very well. And so I kept a lot of walls up and some those walls coming down and and being able to connect to to others in a more reciprocal way where ⁓ it's just so beautiful. I think that's really what the difference is Yeah. I think having enough love for myself ⁓ to be able to not hide myself away in you know the darkness of my house for long winters and share myself with other people and allow them into my life and share in their lives as well. Yeah.

speaker-0: Mm. So enough love for yourself to know that you deserve to ask for it and to give it and to be in that reciprocal exchange rather than feeling that you need to.

speaker-1: Yeah, I don't wanna be that that vagrant cancer cell. Right? I don't want to yeah, no that's that's not natural for us.

speaker-0: we're meant to be together. And so my last question for you, Rebecca. So if you think about the worst moment for you in this journey, like the worst time in all of it, is there something that you wish that somebody had said to you, or maybe you could think of it the other way, someone else that's maybe listening to this, is themselves, at that part that was, whichever part it was, the hardest moment for you? Is there something that you would want to say to them that you wish that you'd known?

speaker-1: My therapist said to me, and I'll share this. I came home from the hospital and I was sitting in my bathroom on the toilet door closed, so kids didn't hear me, whatever. Called him immediately. He's crying. This is what's happening. And he let me cry for a moment. And he said, Rebecca. He said, Okay. He goes, You have two choices. He said Are you going to live or are you going to die? And that just took like the the the wind out of any poor me sail that was happening. And it was, of course, I'm gonna live. I'm gonna live. And that means now, today. That doesn't mean I'm gonna live for 20 years, doesn't mean I'm live for 30 years, it means I'm gonna live today.

speaker-0: Thank you so much for sharing your story. Thank you so much for being in our community. Yeah, we're forming a great big circle around you and all the people listening to this who are going through cancer of themselves or a loved one.

speaker-1: you for for inviting me into this circle today. Allowing me to share.

speaker-0: Thank you Rebecca. We're going to hear now from another ACER community member. Kim is a mother who walked her son through cancer twice. He's now in remission and has just graduated from high school. And here Kim shares about what it was like to be a carer for a loved one with cancer, how our culture failed to encircle carers with the care that they need, and how participating in a psychedelic clinical trial helped her feel more connected.

speaker-2: For certain cancers it can take a few days to reach a diagnosis. And so there was for us this three day period where they run every conceivable test, ⁓ probably while they wait for the results. And then and then you get the news, you get the diagnosis. And then I think ⁓ an experience like this, like the best way I have come to describe it is it creates like a tear in this time space continuum. You remember things about like the look on the doctors' faces when they open the door and then the walk between the the room and the meeting room where you get the news. ⁓ I just remember experiencing like a form of disbelief, a pull to not be be present, not be in my body. I remember sitting in the room and hearing the words and like the receiving devastating news requires like an act of presence that is hard to describe because you know you need to listen, but then like you're having to manage the emotions you're feeling while listening. And I remember just sitting there Intuitively understanding that I needed to move my body to like be able to still be there. I remember like rubbing my legs and moving the chair and it was my way of staying present, of remaining on this earth in a way. Like it was just so difficult to hear, but I knew I needed to hear it. So ⁓ I I just kind of knew you just survive it, you move through it. And I think that as a parent receiving the news, it's a bit different because I didn't there wasn't a choice. I wasn't gonna not hear it. I wasn't gonna like it find a million and one ways to escape. I was going to just do what had to be done. Like that part for me was Beyond question, that was gonna happen. So it was like I had however many minutes to float around in space and time and then like come back down to Earth and and realize, okay, well now now we go tell him and now we go figure out what we need to do and I don't know what happens going forward, but I know that I'm gonna be part of it. I just tried desperately to support him in the ways that the oncologists and professional staff couldn't, right? Like I was the one who was watching how he was doing and saying like he he needs something to help him emotionally or he's like not gonna make it. Can we look at things? ⁓ and you know, the reason why I came to learn about psilocybin, talk about like treatment resistant depression, like he's the reason I know what that is. ⁓ So I asked, like, is there anything we can do that's, you know, a little bit creative here? And of course there's not because he's a child. ⁓ but that's how I came to learn really about psilocybin and and what's possible. I I became somewhat desperate. Like what is what is out there for people struggling with depression? And at the time, like I wasn't concerned about my own well being at all. I really just needed to do whatever I could for my child, including, you know, not knowing like Is is this it for him? Like I don't know if he'll live through this. And if that's true, what what can be done from now until the the time he's not here? And so I read about psilocybin and I felt, okay, this sounds like really promising. because one of the things I think he's been robbed of is as a you know, childhood cancer can rob you of like wonder and hope and exploration. and freedom and meaning making of your own life. And I think when I learned about the psilocybin it felt like, ⁓ this can really enable a person to make meaning of their life, whatever the life is that they have, right? Or however long it is that they are here, but to like make meaning of what they have. So ⁓ of course they they would not consider administration of that for him and and I understand why. But ⁓ if you fast forward, I mean that treatment process was extremely intense, both inpatient that six months and then when he came out, he still had an IV. So I administered his IV medication around the clock for the first thirty days and then his oral medication for I don't I don't know really long time. that in it in and of itself was extremely intense. but to to fast forward to the psilocybin, I think what I found was Probably approximately a year after his discharge, when things slowed down enough for me, I think finally there was the space for me to realize how hard it was for me. And I think it in that space, I had for the first time in my life, wondered, do I really have enough in me? Is there like, can I really go on and take care of these kids? Like I don't I don't know that I can. I don't know that I have it left. And that was really ⁓ telling for me because I had I was a person where prior to that, like I there was never a doubt. Like I was always gonna show up for my kids, like no matter what. Of course I was. So this was really different, I thought to myself. This is bad, this is not good, I can't you know, I wasn't actively thinking about suicide. It wasn't that. It was more like I have hit a wall with this and I just I don't know, this is just too much, I think. And I don't know if there's anything left. So I I actually just at that point I just found a psychiatrist and just tried an SSRI. But ⁓ for me and I think for many people, the SSRI kind of only does so much. What happened was I had reached out to the clinic about trials for my son, and they had reached out to me, and then when we reaffirmed his age, he was not eligible. But now I had a connection to this clinic. And so I reached out to them again. I said, hey, you know, we talked about my son, but do you have anything for adults that I might fit into? And so then when they had a trial, they reached out to me and I thought, I am definitely gonna try this. and so I did. So mostly I tried it because I was doing better. You know, the this the depression from for me was manageable, but I also felt like, is this all that there is? And so I was like, yes, absolutely I'm interested in this this trial. So I went in very open minded. ⁓ I did set some intentions and it was really extraordinary for so many reasons. It was for me, I had an element of the trip where I felt like, Is this death? Is this it? And then I was like, I think I'm okay with it. Which, you know in sober life, I'm not okay with that, right? But just this idea that transcending or passing or whatever you want to call it could be okay was a real relief. So there was that element of it. I was forced to confront how uncomfortable it was for me to like not be ⁓ to question my reality was really disorienting. But that was helpful, I think, because in a way it opens up the door to the fact that like so much of life that matters we really do not control. Right? We think we do, we try to, and obviously we should make the effort to, but we don't, right? We just don't know. And it was good practice for me to be like, Okay, you know, I I can do all the things and I should do all the things, but I don't know. I don't know how any of this is gonna turn out. ⁓ so that was really helpful. I think what it does, what what an experience like that can do, it obviously wouldn't do this for everyone, but it can help you see what's most important to you. And it it requires you to shed what is not. And that shedding is actually really helpful. You know, when you learn how to stop worrying about the things that just don't matter, they're not important to you, maybe they're important to other people. that process in and of itself requires or requires you to get in touch with what's important to you. Part of what led me to be interested in the trials at all, ⁓ it's the grief, the fear, all of that. And some of those fears include my children dying or me dying. And you know, that then brings to question what's the point or meaning of it all. And in my third and most recent dosing, I remember this whole conversation about this whole exploration around What is death? Or what is my connection to my kids? And I just sort of remember knowing that, like coming across this discovery, knowing that no matter what happened, I would find them. And I knew like that might not be literal, but my connection to them was permanent. And I felt so reassured by that. I just left that experience knowing like I will always be connected to my children. ⁓ and that I get maybe it's that feeling or knowing that transcends, you know, our day in and day out life. ⁓ but there's just like a comfort in that that ⁓ I can't quite bring words to. And I think that what I have found is that the psychedelics facilitate like remembering that nature and the natural world I think can help with ⁓ integrating. these these multiple aspects of self, right? The thinking, the feeling, the being, all that. So for me, nature is a way it helps me get in my body, which is a thing is not my strength, right? And then ⁓ community I think helps connect with feeling. It just feels good to be around people. of like values, it feels I mean, it feels really good to help other people. It feels good to be there for other people. I think at one point, and this was before my son got sick, I was forced to confront the fact that I I did not like myself and I had some stuff I had to work on. And then I think having my children and having a critically ill child really like ups the ante on all of that. You just have to decide what are you gonna get out of life? What is it gonna mean to you? Just become comfortable with what's not comfortable. I think the psilocybin and and all of the work that I've done, these things have mostly given me the gift of being able to say, like, I'm just gonna get up today and give this day what I have and like hopefully it's enough. 'Cause I don't know. And just do that day after day because I still am not able to think that far into the future. I still get up pretty much every day and maybe maybe I can think a week ahead, but I don't think years ahead the way that I used to. But that can like really take a lot out of you, right? Like to be so in the present can be really challenging. And I think the the psilocybin helps accept that that's not great, but I'm still here.

speaker-0: And obviously you're part of our community as well. So what's that been like for you being part of a community and how has that? Yeah. What was it about an online community apart from obviously integrating your psychedelic experience? What was it about that that appealed to you and how's it been?

speaker-2: Yeah, I think again initially it was something about the tree design, you know, the the tree journeys and on the ⁓ the meditations are all just in and of themselves like really lovely, really brilliantly designed and just ⁓ a joy to to kind of have access to. And then, you know, you like drop into like a virtual space and you're like, ⁓ like these are just like decent people. They're just like good people trying to live their best life, dealing with their stuff like all of us. And maybe just the difference is it it just proves that a group of people can get together and be kind to one another, right? Because everyone's struggling. You know, but not all of us have to hurt other people because we're struggling. And that's just really nice to have access to. It's a nice reminder that it exists. And I think that I think there are far more people like That then can appear if you're not part of a community like that. It just helps get up every day, right? Because there are a lot of reasons not to. But there are a lot of decent people in the world. We're all doing our best. And so I think when I say we're all doing our best, I'm able to say that and mean that in a way that like has more like texture and appreciation for other people, including the fact that.

speaker-0: you

speaker-2: I definitely don't need to know specifically what f what something you know, what another person is struggling with. I can simply respect that they are, right? People have very ri rich inner worlds and people endure things that most of us know nothing about and we just need to honor and respect that everybody has has their stuff and they're just doing their best.

speaker-0: What could you imagine our culture having brought into it that we don't already have, that would be there to support people who have been through this experience of caregiving for a very ill child and all of the uncertainty and all of the stress? What would have helped you? What could our culture bring in that would maybe help others?

speaker-2: Not only do we not do anything, we make it harder for caregivers. I mean, I don't I'm speaking to like the culture in the United States, I'd like to believe there are cultures elsewhere that don't function this way, but I don't think we do value caregivers. ⁓ so there there isn't support. I mean, I there isn't support. To my knowledge, if your child passes away, there is not a single program or thing out there to help you. Which to me, you know, that occurred to me through this process and I thought that makes zero sense, you know. To go through something like that, whether you lose your child or you have to support your child in an intense way, like we should be set up such that that's all that you do. Like you shouldn't have to worry about paying your mortgage. Or, definitely you shouldn't have to have to worry about healthcare insurance. That's insane, right? But even if we took that off the table, I mean at a minimum, why can't we set families up where your mortgage is paid for and like it's not a formula, you don't have to like up to X amount, you know, you don't have to like show proof of j just like have somebody else pay your mortgage and your utilities and give you a reasonable food budget. I mean that alone would go a really far away. We shouldn't be set up that way. It's like There's just like not enough material, meaningful, enduring support that exists.

speaker-0: If you were thinking about someone who was listening to this and is where you were when your son was 10 and then again when you had the news about the relapse and that awful moment in the doctor's office, somebody reeling from the shock of it and feeling that they just don't have it in them to go through it, is there something that you wish that someone had told you, something that you'd want to say to them that you think could help?

speaker-2: really is about finding within you how you want to proceed. Be ruthless about coming to understand what your own values are, what your own priorities are, and like protect those very strongly because it's it's the only way through and it's all that matters to own Own the fact that it is your path. There is not a right one. You will make mistakes. You may decide you're done or you've had enough or you don't have more. Like that's just the reality of it. And nobody can judge you for it. It really is just about decide how you're gonna do how how you want to do it and then try to do it that way. And don't let anybody tell you differently because they're not living it.

speaker-0: Thank you so much Kim for being in our community, for being here today on our Stand in the Circle podcast. So two members of our community circling the same ideas, that our connection to the people we love runs deeper than we know and can even outlast death. This was described by Rebecca and by Kim and their psychedelic experiences. And this intense connection can of course also be experienced without psychedelics, as my aunt talked about last week. and the idea that cancer tests our connection to ourselves and asks us to turn towards our own bodies and our own needs, often for the first time, and tests our connection to our communities. And for those of us listening whose lives aren't touched by cancer right now, how can we be the village for others? Next week, two psychedelic researchers, Katherine and Ivan, who have been focusing on what helps people stay connected to life even when facing serious illness and even at the very end. See you next week. Thank you. Stand in the circle. See you next week. I'm Roz Watts. Stand in the circle.