Ros: I I think being witnessed even on some kind of tacit level is just really hard when you don't have a solid community of people around you that live your life with you every day. Welcome to Stand in the Circle with me, Dr. Roslyn Watts. I'm a clinical psychologist, researcher, and founder of Acer Integration. This podcast is about how we get connected in a culture that pulls us apart. We talk about the hardest experiences of being human and the circles of care we have needed, couldn't find, and are searching for now, with stories from people who've lived it and researchers and practitioners. Healing in community is the older way. The work of our times to rebuild our connectedness to ourselves, to each other, and to the living world. Hello everyone, welcome to the third episode of Stand in the Circle. Today we have a guest, our first guest of the podcast, and the guest is Ruth. Hello, Ruth. Thank you for coming. Hi. So Ruth was a participant in the psilocybin for depression trial that happened in 2019. I worked on the trial, Ruth was a participant, so we've known each other for a long time. And we're gonna have a conversation today around all sorts of things. Psychedelic therapy, depression, connectedness, and what a a journey of integration or journey of healing really looks like and how it's not really a straight line but more of a spiral. Would you say that's a reasonable summary, Ruth? It's a spiral, not a straight line. Yeah. Spiral is good. So we'll talk about that kind of spiral journey and we will we will come back at times perhaps to our framing for this podcast, which is about standing in the circle, connectedness, and that having three levels. Standing in the circle with yourself, with other people, and with the living world around us. So we will we will come back to standing in the circle and the different layers. But first of all, let's start off with Ruth, where you came to join the Psilocybin for Depression trial. Can you talk to us a little bit about the background, how you were feeling, how long you'd been feeling that way, and what it was that really brought you towards applying for a psilocybin for depression trial in in London? Yeah, so I think at that point I had really been living with depression, I'd say, most of my adult life. And trying to find trying all sorts of different ways to deal with it, cope with it, try and get rid of it. I tried a number of different antidepressants. I had tried various talking therapies. probably most of the kind of conventional things that you would try for mental health ⁓ problems or challenges. and I had heard I think I'd heard about in about a couple of years before I'd heard about ⁓ psilocybin treatment for depression. I think there was a trial before the one I was on that I'd had heard about. and also had had a couple of conversations with friends about s I think somebody we knew had gone to Peru. and I was curious about that, but the idea of travelling to Peru on my own to do psychedelics was a little bit too far out for me. so when I heard ⁓ and then I think I'd found I found after hearing about the initial trial, I found a website where you could sign up for clinical trials. So I signed up for that and then I kind of forgot about it. And then one of the one of the clinicians got in touch with me to do a screening process. So I actually wasn't it wasn't on my mind when I was contacted. But at that point I think, you know, I felt like I'd tried everything. ⁓ and was was that felt like a real lifeline and a real opportunity to take part. Thank you for reminding me about that website for taking part in clinical trials, because we can put that in the show notes for people who might be interested in applying. ⁓ so so when the somebody got in touch with you for screening and you Thought, okay, this might actually be something that I can do. Did you feel any trepidation or nervousness about something involving psychedelics? I think I think by the time I'd gone by the time I'd been contacted for the screening call, I'd already done quite a bit of research and listened to some podcasts. So I f I felt somewhat nervous. But I think also I was just so desperate to try something different. that that that that need to try something new had kind of superseded any nerves I felt. I think also at that point in my life, the idea of it taking place in a hospital, ⁓ in the town where I lived, and with kind of qualified psychiatrists and psychologists, that gave me some comfort and a sense of like a buffer around, you know, as opposed to maybe going underground, not knowing how to vet somebody, and kind of the risks that that might entail, or going to another country. so yeah, I think the the kind of official nature of it it gave me some comfort. I I think maybe my position on that now has evolved, but that's what got me in and I I would never want to discredit that because it sort of was it was still a a pathway in. and e even if I may do things differently now, I'm so grateful for that original opportunity. Yeah, that really does make a lot of sense that having that security and that safety stands for so much at that very beginning part of the journey. That you really need to know that if something happens that you're gonna have expert care straight away, you're in the right place. And so when you first came to the hospital, to the research unit for your first for your first session, your first psilocybin adventure, can you remember what what that was like, what the prep was like? Like how did the whole thing how what was it like for you? It was quite it was quite scary. It was quite intimidating because or everything I've just said about feeling safe, or also hospitals are scary. Like I've you know, I've been in hospital for for surgery and that, you know, it's not the it's not really where you want to be. So there's maybe a little bit of push and pull there. ⁓ but the the staff were so lovely and really welcoming. And I think ⁓ casting my mind back, there were so many forms and questionnaires to fill in. That was really overwhelming. And I think for me, I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, I have to get it right. Like it's probably related to to some of my depression. It was like, what if I fail this test and then I'm kicked out, I think there was a little bit of that for me. I'm I'm sure everybody's different. there were things like remembering, you know, reading a list of words and then having to remember the words. And I was like, well what if I only remember three words or, you know. so there are lots of forms to fill in. ⁓ but I do remember the treatment room being set up really nicely. You know, they'd managed to sort of disguise ⁓ the fact that it was a hospital room with lots of lovely cushions and ⁓ like good nice lighting and it I remember the screen of like a pr the printed screen of trees. which I I kind of thought was quite funny but also nice. and the other thing that really I think made a big difference for me was we were encouraged to bring in some personal items. so for the actual dosing session, ⁓ had a little kind of shrine of A few different photographs and, you know, a couple of different things that that were kind of precious to me. I think that was that was something that I really valued as well. Can you tell us a bit about the items that you brought in? Can you remember what you brought? Yeah, I I brought a couple of items ⁓ connected to my grandparents, not so much because I was close to them, but more because the kind of ancestry part felt important. It turned out it really was important. I just Didn't know that I didn't know how that was gonna turn out. ⁓ so yeah, just a few little things like that that were ⁓ special to me. So Ruth, can you tell us a bit about your first psilocybin experience? So you had your items, you had your prep session. What happened? ⁓ well I'd never I'd never taken any psychedelics before. ⁓ And I think, I mean, you're probably not supposed to do things like this, but I think I had been to the cinema a couple of days before and I had watched Jumanji, the new Jumanji film. And I just thought, ⁓ my gosh, I'm gonna take the psychedelic and I'm gonna l end up in playing Jumanji. So part of my brain was just fixated on this idea, which which was obviously just like a slight coping mechanism. But I I guess in some ways it's not that different. You are you are going on a quest. ⁓ but things like that I just found really funny. So there was a real mix of like nerves, kind of fear over like am I gonna get a a dose or am I gonna be on the pl placebo dose? You know, just just a lot of unknowns really, not knowing what you're going like what's gonna happen if you are on a high dose, not not knowing what you're gonna do and how you're gonna cope. if you're on the on the control dose. so yeah, it was a real mixed bag and I think it felt exciting and terrifying. but all of that kind of behind that was just like I have to do this. There's really not much else to try. So ⁓ I d I would I definitely wouldn't say I was going in there kind of calm and prepared and ready. There was a real wild mix of emotions. ⁓ ⁓ but once again, you know, the the the clinicians were so great and really did a lot to reassure any any kind of nervousness that I had. And I think also on the day I thought, well, I am here now, like I'm doing this. I I've a I haven't waited all this time to now back out, you know, half an hour before. So, I took the took the medicine, took the dose, and then the that was the probably the weirdest part was sort of waiting to see if something's going to happen. ⁓ and it was a bit awkward, everyone's sort of sitting there like, ⁓ should we page through this p picture book? Or ⁓ but fairly quickly I would say I did start to feel something. and that the first kind of ⁓ I'm very I I'm I know people experience these things very differently, but it turned out that I it was a very visual experience for me. ⁓ and so initially I put an eye mask on and we there was this lovely soundtrack playing and I sort of got these like neon flashing lights ⁓ started appearing ⁓ behind my closed ⁓ kind of my eye mask. and I thought, ⁓ something is happening. But throughout the whole experience, even though I very clearly was having a huge profound experience, there's always like a little seed of doubt of like, ⁓ this could just be my imagination. ⁓ but I'd say that from the time that that I got these little neon disco lights starting up, I was like, okay, I'm here, I've got two people. This is the most kind of mental health support I've had, probably ever. So We're gonna just roll with this and like have an adventure. It it I'm I was feeling open enough to kind of take whatever came my way. ⁓ and it turned out that I had a a really positive experience. you know, I I d ⁓ there's so just so many things I can't even remember all of them, but ⁓ I sort of went through so one of the things and I think every time I could tell this ⁓ relate this experience, I probably could pick different things. But one of the things that felt quite significant to me, that feels significant to me still now, is ⁓ I I grew up in a really religious household, ⁓ quite evangelical Christian, quite strict. and in the Bible, in the in the old Hebrew ⁓ testament, the there's the temple, ⁓ the the temple of ⁓ the Hebrew temple. And as you enter the temple, there are these two pillars. ⁓ one pillar is called Yachim and one is called Boaz. And I I just knew like it wasn't even a wandering, it was just like, ⁓ yes, my my two therapists are the two pillars ⁓ of the temple and and I can go through the door of this temple knowing that those two pillars are there holding fast and standing firm and whatever's inside the temple, like I'm protected by these two pillars. So that felt really significant and also because I I'm I no longer have a Christian faith. So it was interesting to me that I felt reassured by that because I I would say that kind of my my struggles with my faith were were definitely a a part of my kind of depression and questioning about things. So that was something that was really significant, and I and I felt like one once I had gone into the doorway of this temple, that sort of felt like Now the journeys really began. ⁓ and then I I mean I just went on a huge adventure, traveled all over the world. I I experienced interestingly, with with having those pictures of the the rock art there, I one part of my journey was joining in with a group of ⁓ Khoisan ⁓ singing around a fire. so that felt really significant and kind of you know, obviously I'm white, but tied to that land in some way, and ⁓ having s grown up there and been been born there. yeah, and and by the by the time that the whole experience was coming to an end, I was really reluctant to come back to the real world. I just was like, this is so much better and now I'm gonna have to come back to all these awful realities of life. ⁓ and I really didn't want to. So that that's a very ⁓ you know, I think I think it I think you can tell lots of stories about having an experience and it's so interesting and fascinating and everybody wants to hear what crazy things happened. But I I do think that there's something about that where it's like the fireworks and it is fun and it is cool, but actually like it's it's more really is more what you do with that afterwards. That's the real meaning. And so I'm happy to tell a few little anecdotes, but I actually don't know how helpful it is because if somebody goes in and they're not so visual and they don't and they're expecting to have a huge like experience and maybe they have a completely different experience, but they've been colored by or their expectations have been colored by all these stories they've heard. I think that can be a real struggle. So I think for anyone going in, they need to just let go of what they think. they want to happen and just really embrace what actually happens. Hmm, and that's such a good point that the work is really what happens afterwards. And no matter what the experience is like, it can be an o a doorway onto that kind of openness where you can make those changes. So coming back to the end of the the first trip then and then you would have had a session with your guides to talk it through. And then you had three weeks before your next psilocybin session because this trial had two sessions. Yes. Three weeks apart. So can you remember those three weeks and how you felt you'd had a positive experience? h yeah, what w what was how did you feel afterwards? Well, I think I'm I did make ⁓ a couple of good decisions. I decided to take a few days off. So I I I basically w I did go straight back to work. I think I took one day off and went back to work, but I booked about a four day weekend to go away. And I'm so grateful I did that. you know, it was it was quite tricky to fit that in with my schedule. But I'm I went away and I just had four days to just like write down journals, ⁓ go for long walks, and just chill out basically and ⁓ kind of process it all because I think throwing yourself back into real life it it it's a bit jarring. and also you can kind of you know, as these things fade, you can kind of lose grip on on stuff that's maybe significant or that you want to hang on to for a bit longer. I think a lot of stuff fades, but, you know, in the in those intervening weeks you kind of want to hang on to some things as long as you can. ⁓ so that was one thing I'm really glad I did. ⁓ I have to say I don't know if I can remember a huge amount. I think I was just quite overwhelmed and a bit like This is gonna take forever to unpick like all the stuff that I experienced. and am I fixed? Am I not fixed? Like I think at that point I definitely would have used those words. Like I don't think that now, but I was so desperate to be fixed because I felt completely broken. ⁓ so just yeah, trying to grapple with that. ⁓ and then of course, like I did have this huge experience, but at I still did not know officially that I had had ⁓ a big dose. Hmm. Yes, because of course with this trial, half the participants would have had a placebo dose and half had the high dose psilocybin. So yes, there was that uncertainty as well. And I guess you didn't know for your second session, even if you thought that perhaps you probably had had the high dose rather than the placebo for the first session, I imagine you didn't know for the second one, you you didn't know if you were gonna have the same again or something different. So when you went into your second session, tell us a bit about, yeah, how when you arrived at the clinic again three weeks later, how how did it feel coming back compared to the first time? I think I felt more ready to go for it. I had had, you know, overall I think in my first experience I had did have come up against some challenging things, but overall it was just felt positive and life affirming and ⁓ that's I That's what I was hoping for again. Like maybe slightly even more than that, 'cause like now I've now I've kind of broken the veil. ⁓ but that that isn't what happened. I actually had a really challenging experience and it was it was I mean, it it was hours of pain. It was awful. and I I really wanted it was just almost completely the opposite. I I ev rather than everything expanding, it felt like everything was collapsing. and and and really quite quite kind of v in in the visuals that I was having, very very dark but also just really gross. Like I I was sort of trapped ⁓ in this this sort of nest of larvae and ⁓ you know it was just like this is horrible, like it feels horrible. So I just wanted to be out and I eventually know, I did voice that and then ⁓ my therapists sort of we we s I took the eye mask off and we had had a little chat and they tried to reassure me. and that helped a little bit, but I just thought, well yeah, but I'm gonna I'm gonna be like this now forever. Like this is never gonna end. ⁓ I have to live in this horrible world. so I s I almost just powered through it. and ⁓ I n I just knew that at some point it's gonna end in the real world even if it feels like it's never going to. ⁓ and I I d I really don't know how to explain it because it was probably one of the most horrible experiences I've had. But even after it ended, I just knew that as horrible as it was, I I knew it was valuable. I I I there's nothing there's no real reason I can give how I knew that. I just I think because It it was like the light and the dark. I had this first experience that was full of light and I do believe that you can't just have one without the other. So I think maybe something about that just reassured me that as horrible as that was, like, it's still gonna be valuable. And I think also, I mean, you I think when you struggle long term with things like depression A lot of the time people are saying things like, you know, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and a lot of those sorts of platitudes, which j of like 90% of the time they're coming from a really good place, but when you've been depressed for twenty years, like that's that's no use to you whatsoever. however, sometimes these horrible platitudes, annoyingly, they turn out to be kind of true. ⁓ And so I think something something of that was like, well, I'm not glad this happened, but this is what happened. So like what can I what can I glean from this? and and also I knew I had some support, like I wasn't sort of left in the lurch. i you know, even though even though it was a huge challenge. Yeah. And thinking about depression, like when you were in those horrible kind of gross p spaces and then afterwards when you came round from that very, very challenging experience. Can you remember, you might not remember now at all, but did you feel depression in your system? Or w like what was it that was it something different? Did you feel a shift? Was it amplified depression? Can you tie it like tie something in about the depression and the experience you had? Like Yeah, I think I think what shifted was the biggest shift that happened, which was almost immediate. I I don't remember whether I felt this after the first or the second session, but it sort of happened and then that was that was it. So I think some of the things that you take with you from these experiences, you you have to work and integrate and and they almost become like themes in your life. But then if you're if you it's almost like give being given a gift. If you're given a gift of something instantaneously that is just there and it's never gone away, was just the sense of mm the depression being a separate thing from me. because before I didn't really see a line between, you know, I I am depression. I I don't have depression. And so that that was the biggest ⁓ kind of shift that never really went away, even though I still struggled ⁓ in the in the months and years afterwards I did struggle with depression a little bit. It was just never the same because I knew that it was something I'm experiencing, not something I am. So that division from my identity is is really the thing that made the biggest difference. And maybe that's also what helped me with that challenging experience to separate it out, I think. You know, during during depression it would be like, ⁓ I I did something to for this to happen to me. Like it you know, a lot a lot of self pity, a lot of ⁓ these kinds of things always happen to me. ⁓ it's just my luck. Whereas I think before, because I'd had a really positive experience the first time and then this challenging one the second time, I was like, Well, I've experienced two wildly different things. Like who can say, you know, what the n the norm is or what yeah. Hmm. And so do you feel that that that sense of ⁓ that sense of the separation between you and the depression, that you're not depression, that you have ex depression. Was that there in that difficult experience? Could you feel it even then whilst that was happening, that had begun, or was it after that? Actually now yes. I think because during this difficult experience I I was not in a world where I belonged. I I felt like I was just in this place where everything was against me. and it's almost like I had these sort of beings visiting me and saying, Well, it doesn't matter what you try, it's not gonna work because this isn't where you belong. But you're trapped here. and that in that intense frustration maybe is symbolic of having tried and tried and tried to resolve this depress depression that just would never go away. ⁓ I'm not sure that I can say on a conscious level what shifted there, but maybe that helped me to see that it like, well this is horrible this horribleness is not me. It doesn't belong to me. It's it belongs to this other world. I'm just trapped in this world. They spent the whole journey trying to get out of the world, not being able to. And then maybe the integration was the journey out of that world, ⁓ in a kind of symbolic way. That does sound really powerful, that message of you don't you don't belong here. You are trapped here, but this is not where you actually belong feels quite moving. And so then you finished the trial, you went back home, and kind of normal life resumes. Can you I've ⁓ talked a bit in the previous episodes of this podcast about how we live in a culture that doesn't often very offer very many ways to connect and lots of ways to numb. So when you went back to normal life, can you describe, can you remember kind of that did you have a first of all, did you have a feeling of openness and connectedness afterwards? And if you did, like how long before that started to fade, if if that happened to you as it does to so many people? I don't think I had a sense of kind of euphoria of like being freed from depression and like, wow, this is how it feels I I think I felt a more more emotion like a wider variety, sort of like the full spectrum of emotions rather than suddenly I'm experiencing all these positive ones. I think because obviously depression, like the clue is in the name, kind of just shuts a lot of things down. And so I was feeling more frustrated, more angry, more calm, more s satisfied, like a whole spectrum of things. And that was exhausting actually. I I think I I was just not used to feeling so many different things all the time. I mean my my journey that that was I mean, I know we're gonna talk about it This, but the timing of it was also just a bit weird. So I sort of went back into normal life, but actually I think it was like a month or six weeks after my second dose that COVID happened and we just went into lockdown. I mean I hadn't really told anyone. I had told one or two friends that this is what I was doing. So it didn't have anyone around me. I I told my brother and I told a friend of mine. ⁓ so I spoke to them about my experience. But other than that, I didn't have like an a support network. I went to like a psychedelic integration circle, I think on the f on a Friday and then on the Monday of that week they were all cancelled because COVID had happened. So there wasn't really much of going back to normal life. And when the kind of the lockdown happened, I actually just felt so relieved because I just thought Well, this is horrible, but also like I I'm gonna just nest at home and like try and work out what's going on with my brain because there was just the sense of overwhelming like stuff to process. Yeah. Hmm. And then it wasn't f that long after that that we started, I guess, the kind of first version of the Acer community. We started our sharing circles because of COVID. And there are lots of people in the same boat as you who didn't have access to integration circles, integration supports. We started the sharing circles for you and other people in the in the trial. And can you remember about that and what that felt like? ⁓ just your experience of being part of those sharing circles. I think they were weekly, weren't they? Yeah, they were weekly in. I I mean I was really grateful for them. It was it did end up becoming a kind of highlight of the week. Think it it was really helpful to talk to people who'd been through the trial experience because we we did we obvious we shared, you know, and people had had so many different experiences and some people hadn't felt like much had happened at all. ⁓ but then when they'd share something, you could tell something had happened. ⁓ and it was just lovely to get lots of different perspectives and see lots of different of age ranges and life circumstances. ⁓ And I think during during that time as well, it's there was a lot of introspection and there's a lot of you know s time spent on myself. So I think having those circles just pulled me out of myself a little bit. hearing other people's challenges, stories, inspiration, it it Yeah, it helped me see that I'm not the only one suffering with depression or trying to figure this stuff out. So I think one of the biggest things was that re relatability of these people have all done this weird thing that we've all just finished. and I think one thing I did also appreciate was, you know, that trial was was over the span of a year at least, maybe even longer. Can't remember. So some of the people who were in our circle had had had their trial a year ago and I had just had mine. So it was really helpful to hear what they had to say a ⁓ and give a kind of a footprint of not like what is gonna happen, but things that could happen in the next year to come. It it is helpful when you enter this kind of unknown realm. Not to grab onto what people say and be like, Okay, they've done it, they know. It's just building a picture of possibility of yeah. Yeah, you just have to be open to all sorts of different things that could happen. Like you there's we're so so wired for certainty. but the more that you can let go of that, the the more helpful it is. yeah. And I I think that However frustrating. Some people might hear that and be very frustrated by that, or some people might feel inspired. But I think my experience is that kind of being open to whatever comes is really one of the key things. And that was one of the mantras that we had on the trial for the b before a session was trust, let go, be open, which came from Bill Richards, one of the psychedelic pioneers. And I suppose it is quite a good mantra for life, really, isn't it? Trust, let go, be open. But it's sometimes really Really not that easy to do. Almost like one of those platitudes that you mentioned before about depression. Like sometimes when someone says, Tras, let go, be open, you're like, But how? ⁓ but psychedelics, I guess, do give you one way of of you're kind of forced into the surrender in a way, aren't you? You kind of have to let go because you can't really control it. And so one of the things we did in those sh early sharing circles is that that that then led on to a more structured programme and we started doing tree meditations. And Had you been c I well, you'd grown up in in the bush. So had you did the connectedness to nature feel like it was something already in you? Like what was that like starting to do those tree meditations? What did you think it was a yeah, what did you think about it? I think I if I remember w I remember it being connected to the Celtic calendar. And at that point, I mean this is part of like be open because at that point I was still extremely resistant to all spiritual stuff. And I was like, ⁓ I don't know about this. Why does it have to be tied to something you know, faith-based thing, however loosely? But then I was just like, Okay, well, does it matter? Like I I don't have to you know, I don't have to I can I can use what works for me and leave the rest. And that was a bit bit of a process of getting to that point. so that is something I remember. There's a lot of things like that that are quite easy to forget and be like, ⁓ trees, I love trees. Yes, but actually there was this other element of it. I I really liked, you know, the all the symbolism, I think. it just matched so well with like roots and branches and seasons, all of that just made a lot of sense. and it you know, w with it being COVID, those kind of however many hours, one hour walk a day that you were allowed out your house or whatever, that that became really important to me. So i I guess the timing of that was good. ⁓ and I had I ⁓ I really enjoyed being outside and then had something to search for. Like I wonder if I can find the tree of the month. So that was quite easy to connect to, yeah. And I'm wondering around this time, so like if you think about having been doing this for about a year, where are you at at that point with your processing? So we talk about standing in the circle with ourselves, with standing in the circle with others, standing in the circle with the living world. If you think about those three kind of ways of organizing it. Think about your own your own journey with emotions, with processing. When you think about kind of standing in the circle with yourself, like what was changing for you, what was happening for you at that time, about a year after your experience? What had been happening for you over the course of that year of integration? Did we do some breath work stuff within that year? Yeah, we did. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think in terms of standing in the circle relating to myself, I I think one of the things that somebody said to me ⁓ on the trial was that I I had a lot of knowledge but not a lot of wisdom and initially I was like, how rude. But actually it's I was it it stuck with me. And I was like, ⁓ my gosh, that's so true. Because I have read every book. I know all the kind of neuroscience for like a layperson's level. about ⁓ depression and mental health stuff. I just knew I had all the knowledge, but I that having all this knowledge did not help me get rid of my depression. and so this idea of wisdom, and actually we you know we think of trees as containing wisdom. So that kind of clicked in. I was like, ⁓ yeah, actually I I mean it's not that I have no wisdom, but haven't used wisdom in ⁓ in my toolkit for dealing with my depression. So that year was a lot of like learning, maybe some wisdom that I had but just didn't apply in my life or didn't even like acknowledge. So some of that was coming up and having a chance to show show up. And I think also just doing ACER gave it opportunity to do a few different things. So for example, I did like a couple of breathwork classes, and yeah, a little bit of meditation and j it's sort of more body based things, a lot of like vagus nerve calming. And some of those things made me so angry and some of them worked and made me feel great and some of them didn't work at all. So there was a a really good process of just trying lots of different things, kind of somatic stuff. And just being like, okay, that thing doesn't work. Maybe I'll come back to it in a few months. That was the connection to myself, was I didn't need to connect to my mind. My mind is like hardwired. I think probably what the doing the trial opened up was connecting to my feelings. And then the the kind of final aspect of that I think was connecting to my actual body, which was really hard in initially. And so things like doing this breastwork and then just being absolutely furious and wanting to like burn the house down. You know, that where did that come from? And instead of getting sc I mean, it was quite scary, I'd never felt that anger before, but instead of shutting it down, just being like, Okay, that's super interesting, where has that come from? And then w and then not necessarily ruminating on that, but just okay, it's op it's out in the open, it's just there. Every now you know, like a picture you might have on the wall and you walk past it in your house and you never look at it. And then one day you look at it and you go, ⁓ I really like that picture or ⁓ that's really interesting, I'd never noticed that detail before. Then like my anger was just sort of there and every now and again I'd notice it. ⁓ And I guess just that's what I mean about having the openness is just revisiting things, not forcefully, but when they come up. ⁓ there's another breastwork session. It's three months since I did the last one. ⁓ yeah, I'm still really angry. Okay, I still don't know why that is, but it's now it's happened twice. That that you know, those kinds of things was like an almost like a journey of exploration that I'd never done never seen that kind of somatic side of myself before. Mm. And thinking about that, ⁓ visiting the anger, which can be such a hard thing to do because in our culture we're so told that we shouldn't feel angry, it can be really hard to access that. And it's also hard because it's such a big feeling and it feels so h kind of difficult to hold it as well. When thinking then about the other level of standing in the circle, standing in the circle with others, connection to other people, did you find what was it like being a part of a community of people that by this point you knew really quite well, did that help you with the did you talk about your anger in the sharing circles? Like, how did that work? Yeah, I think it felt it felt safe to to say ⁓ to voice those thoughts and feelings in the sharing circle. One of the things that is really helpful about sharing ⁓ with others who are sort of on a similar Page or a similar journey is, you know, someone else might have have a challenge in their life. And maybe there's some shame or I don't know, r reluctance about whatever it is. And if they bring it to a sharing circle and ⁓ and experience empathy, they're like, ⁓ or someone says, ⁓ yeah, I can totally relate to that. Or even if they can't relate to it, it's it's like There's just something about ⁓ sharing that kind of human experience. You realize like everyone's going through something. They might not be going through the thing I'm doing through, but everyone's got stuff happening and it just breaks down this idea that other people are all fine and it's just me who's not fine. So it it sort of levels things in a way where you you have empathy for other people. So you're not looking at other people going, ⁓ ⁓ she's really messed up, isn't she? Which I think is a fear that people if a people come into a circle, they're like, ⁓ people are gonna think I'm completely nuts or or they're gonna think my issue is really weird or whatever. But that's almost never the case. and it's almost always a freeing to to kind of share stuff, you know, within as long as you're in a safe place, obviously. so yeah, it just felt like a leveller. It it it kind of normalized something that I thought should be under control but wasn't. and it also made it less scary because it was like, Okay, well this is just the thing in front of me that I have to face up to. ⁓ but someone else has got a different thing and they're facing up to it, so I can do this too. Hmm. And then you actually went on to become a sharing cycle facilitator with us. So after that kind of the next layer of your process was that you became a sharing circle facilitator within Acer and what was that what was that like for you to be the one that's holding the space for other people? I guess maybe there are there's a loss in that as well perhaps 'cause you don't get to share your own experiences. What was it? I guess it's quite yeah. Tell us what it was like for you. Yeah, I I think it's it it is a challenge to sort of r ⁓ rein it in and not not be sharing. ⁓ But it's just a privilege, I think. I think there's definitely just a sense of I people have been witnessing me and listening to me, and it's it's just a privilege to be able to do that same thing for other people. ⁓ because I think that is something we've lost. ⁓ you know, there's a lot of things we've lost and people glorify the past, but I I think being witnessed, even on some kind of tacit level, is just really hard when you don't have a solid community of people around you that live your life with you every day. ⁓ And then that also increases the pressure on the few people you may have around you. And so they might just be like, ⁓ not this again. I'm bored of that. But because they hear it all the time is not shared, you might be sharing the same thing with one person, but maybe that thing needs to be shared with ten people. Or or maybe, you know, you sprinkle out the things you share among your community. You don't have to offload loads of of heavy stuff on one person. And I think that's what a sharing circle brings is everyone gets a chance to share. And if if if it keeps going for a for a good amount of time, then you do have that community. ⁓ and well thank you so much for for for doing that as part of our community as well. R it's Yeah, it was a beautiful thing to witness the community grow like that and to to feel that sense of reciprocity that it's both witnessing and also being witnessed by and that it kind of all happens together. I know that people listening might be really interested to hear because I know you said before about like the language of like, was I fixed, was I not fixed, was something that was very much from an earlier time, but as you know, for somebody that's really grappling with the weight of a heavy, heavy depression that is there all the time, or at least they're there a lot of the time, and someone really feeling like they they're looking for something that's gonna make a shift. D tell us what what happened in terms of your your depression and how yeah, how that evolved over the years afterwards. Yeah, so well it's been six years now. so Enough enough time has passed. I mean there's been so many ups and downs, you know, real life doesn't stop happening. but f I felt that I had so much kind of rich material to work with and I think I I really took this whole thing about integration like pretty seriously. and it just felt like I didn't want to waste well, I didn't want to feel like I had wasted the opportunity that I had. I felt like I've really got to kind of take this and run with it. So I did I did still struggle with depression and I definitely I would say for up to about two years after the trial, I had periods of like weeks and months probably of pretty severe depression. But it was there was still that shift of like this is happening to me, this is not who I am. And I think just that one little difference really helped me to keep going even when it felt a lot. and I think I just had to commit to working through a lot of stuff. ⁓ And and then as as I was saying before, just the if the other spectrum of emotions, like, ⁓ now I have to deal with anger, like it was actually almost more simple. Like being being depressed was horrible, but it was quite simple in a way. ⁓ whereas dealing with lots of completely different emotions was really hard work and required it's required a lot of of effort. Not I'm may maybe I'm making it sound like it's just hard work all the time. You know, there would be Weeks when things were fine, but it really was like a proper journey of learning, maybe making making a mistake, going back, relearning, doing something and going, ⁓ I might do that differently next time. And there was just so many things that it was very rich. It was a very rich time, probably two to three years after. I did also do some other psychedelic journeys and I I did feel I wasn't in a rush to do them. I f I I kind of did them when it really felt important. so it hasn't been very frequent, but they've kind of added on to the experiences I had on on the trial and enriched them and and kind of confirmed some of the things that I needed to work on really were quite, you know, big thing themes in my life. ⁓ I would say that I probably I don't think I've I would say I've had depression probably for the last two years for sure. ⁓ and I think those periods of struggling with depression just gradually got shorter, I couldn't say when they ended. They just sort of slowly got less frequent and less severe. but then what bubbled up underneath that was then I I realised that I really struggled quite severely with anxiety. And so once the depression had calmed down, this in intense anxiety kind of surfaced and then that was sort of the next thing to deal with. so the the challenges didn't stop coming. But I I did I I did really feel that because I had done so much of this integration work that I I wasn't lost at sea. Like I did have tools and things I could try. But yeah, that's a that's six years. So when when people talk about a quick fix ⁓ for psychedelic therapy, that may well happen for some people. But ⁓ it's that's certainly not the way it happened with me. Hmm. Thank you, Ruth. And just my final question for you really is thinking about someone who might be listening to this, it's a thri a question with three parts. For someone that might be listening to this who was just starting to think about psychedelic therapy for the first time, who hasn't really thought about it before, but it's just maybe because they're listening in America and we've just had this executive order coming in that means that there's going to be access to psychedelics coming in more quickly and maybe more people are hearing about it. So someone that's just maybe they're suffering from depression or from anxiety or addiction or something else like that, and they're listening to you talk and they're thinking, like, ⁓ I wonder. Is is there one thing that you kind of would want to say to somebody at that one thing that you wish you'd known at that at that time, when you were first starting, when you first kind of found out about it, what would have been helpful for you to know that you wish someone had told you? In preparation for a journey, I think I think there's a cup a couple of things that are maybe the opposite of each other. ⁓ Like on the one hand, there's quite a lot of preparation that you can do. You can do s you can read up, you can you know, listen to other people's accounts, you can learn about how these substances work. you can kind of do some groundwork therapy. And I would inc definitely encourage that. I would encourage sort of you can prepare. You don't just have to be like, I'm gonna go in and then see what happens. So I I would encourage that. But then I think then maybe for some people they'd be like, I have to know everything. So there's always a balance of like prepare and then just let go and be like, I'm I'm on I'm I'm on a journey. I'm taking a step towards potentially meeting a part of myself that I haven't met before. so I think I think I think a current theme in my life is that of like the light and the dark, the opposites, maybe even going back to my initial two tr two experiences on the trial, the light and the shadow. I think finding support and community would be another really big part of it. I know that that can be challenging, you know. I I think online can be helpful if if you live in a community or ⁓ an area where there maybe aren't you don't feel they are people who could relate. I would really encourage people to to just start trying to find some kind of community that where you can share your experiences, even if you haven't had an e a a kind of psychedelic experience yet. that that's that can be re I I would say that would be really helpful if if we had had sharing circles maybe before the trial. They're probably going to be quite good. Yes. Well, and of course people can come to ACER. And actually I suppose the ACER cycle, because it's a year long, people can come to ASA before their first experience and have the community support beforehand and then it's there after their experience and then it's there in this kind of ongoing way. So and we'll put in the show notes ⁓ links to what Ruth you mentioned about trials where people can find out about psychedelic clinical trials, the website that you mentioned. ⁓ and we'll put ⁓ notes about Acer, what's happening and how people can find support from Acer. Just any last words of something you'd want to impart to someone who's earlier on the journey than you? I think it's just really important to know that there's not necessarily a right or a wrong way of going about it. A tr a a trial, especi especially a clinical trial, that the the word trial it means you're trying things out. And I I think really there's If you're really struggling with quite severe depression and anxiety, you just want it to stop. ⁓ and I th and I think I'm I am grateful for for how things have turned out, but I I remember that feeling of like I just want it to be over and being and then when realizing, ⁓ gosh, I've still got so much more work to do getting to know myself, I was just a bit like, are you kidding me? Like I've already done so much. But I think now that's something I really enjoy. I actually like getting to know myself now. it's it's so it's it's interesting and it only does, you know, good things for your relationship with the world and nature. So I think I'm I'm really big on openness. I think when it comes to those like big five personality traits. I think if if you are lucky enough to be high in openness or if you can work on being more open, I think that's the biggest helper because they're just a lot of unknowns and it's an adventure. And, you know, we we we can we can read an adventure and see the bigger picture. But when we're living our own adventure, we have to just be prepared for anything could happen and kind of try and go along with it, good or bad. I mean, this is just like totally as an aside, you know, ⁓ kind of go for my walks in nature, feel all connected, do my meditation, like, ⁓ yes, I'm at one with the universe, and then I came back from holiday and I brought bed bugs back with me. So it's just like, you know, a slap bang to the the real world. Like these things exist together. You I can feel connected to the universe. And also just live with the reality of now I have to wash all my clothes five times. so just things like that, the absurd absurdity. Like I think I've really embraced absurdity on a whole new level. ⁓ because in that way a psychedelic experience is like nowhere near as absurd as actual real life. That's true. That is but so true. ⁓ thank you, Ruth. Thank you for describing so beautifully the complexity of the journey and and and this I love this approach of embracing all of that uncertainty and complexity and the different layers and the different emotions and then it's not as simple as just going from disconnected to connected, it's about moving from one state to another and the whole gamma of different emotions that are part of human experience and being able to be open enough to really Face that and embrace that is a is a beautiful stance. And I guess it's a stance that is difficult to take until you've had some experience of connectedness that it makes it easier to do. It's kind of hard when you're in that place of of hopelessness. But I hope people that might be feeling that way can can hear you speaking and can trust that that kind of journey is something that they might experience, not necessarily through psychedelics, but through so many ways to open up and kind of jump off the edge of ⁓ what is known. and try something new, find connectedness in a in a different way. Yeah. Just just never give up. You ha you have to never give up. I mean, I I I couldn't have imagined that I would think well of myself and and be glad to be here. Be glad to be alive. ⁓ and you know it it's d decades of not being glad to be alive. But it's it's worth not giving up. I would really encourage anyone who's feeling hopeless. Y you you don't want to hear it and you know that you're a different, but like there is there's always hope. There's there's there's a film, you should maybe maybe put a link to that film. I don't know if it's it's ⁓ a Rob Robert Redford and he's sailing solo on this in the sea and everything just goes wrong. It's just there's just you watch this film and there's no hope whatsoever. Everything just goes against him. And then right in like the last thirty seconds of the film there's some redemption. What's the film? I'm gonna have to look it up. ⁓ I'll look it up and I'll email you. It's it's so it's it's that I think I watched that film and felt like that's what depression is like, you know, you're just buffeted by bad luck and storms and external things. But he was is a is a really good film. Thank you, Ruth. We'll put the link to that and we'll put the link to all sorts of other things in the show notes. And also we'll put links to where people can find support if they are feeling really depressed and hopeless right now. We hope your story is just an example of the kind of shift that is possible and the kind of work that it takes, but also the huge the huge k wondrousness of the fact that you're here saying that you lived with depression for many years and now it's not something you've experienced for two years. I think that really is something that is is is is wonderful to hear and to know that that that has been the case for you is is amazing. Yeah. Thank you. Well thank you for having me on being good to chat. Yeah, thank you for your time, Ruth. Thank you everyone for listening. This was Stand in the Circle podcast and we'll be back next week with Michelle Baker Jones, who was a therapist in the trial and that Ruth and I were both part of. So we'll be having another perspective on on psychedelic therapy. Thank you, Ruth. Thank you everyone.