1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,080 Hey guys, welcome back to Meeple to Meeple. 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,440 I want to apologize to all of you. 3 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,400 I know many of you have been following along. 4 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:11,560 I had bronchitis, still kind of do, but my voice is back. 5 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,840 You will also notice that I am not in the Meeple to Meeple 6 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,760 studios. I am hanging out in Northern 7 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,400 Illinois and we're in the Tabletop Vibes studio. 8 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,160 So thank you to Adam for lending us his space. 9 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,760 And today it's lightning in a box. 10 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,680 Can Fury of the Elements catch fire? 11 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,000 That is today's title. And with me is Mark Szymanski. 12 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,560 Did I say that right? Szymanski did Mark Szymanski, 13 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:40,560 who is the designer of Fury of the Elements. 14 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,200 Mark, thanks for joining. Appreciate it for having me. 15 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,840 Absolutely no, this is great. I'm back in the saddle. 16 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,880 So this this feels good to be back sharing with my viewers. 17 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,280 Mark, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, how 18 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,440 you got into the board game hobby in the. 19 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,880 Vivid imagination and you want to really strike the hearts of 20 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,160 everybody, right, right. So I'm kind of a perfectionist. 21 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,360 So I, I pulled back a little bit and said, what can I do that I 22 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,360 can do mostly on my own and I know I can pull a few people in 23 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,480 to help when I need it, right? I was running in a games our 24 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,480 local game store at at the time and reel into TCGS and some 25 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,040 other card games and that's when lightning hit. 26 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,440 And lightning hit. I love that. 27 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,000 That's great. What was the what was the first 28 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:27,680 board game that you played that you were like, I'm hooked, I'm 29 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:29,640 going to be playing this. I'm going to be in this forever. 30 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,000 Man, we've played a lot of games. 31 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,240 A lot of older games I don't get to play as much now. 32 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,560 Sure, play quite a few, but my brother-in-law actually really 33 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:39,200 got me into playing tabletop games. 34 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,200 So I'd say one of my favorites that really is like, yeah, I 35 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,360 really want to do this is Firefly. 36 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,720 Firefly. Man, that's a good one. 37 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:51,240 Yes, and I was a big Firefly fan, my whole fan, so that was 38 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,240 great. Yeah, I really liked it. 39 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,080 And yeah, you can't beat Cap now. 40 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,480 No, you're absolutely right. So question is about lightning 41 00:01:58,480 --> 00:01:59,960 in the box. We have lightning in the box 42 00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:03,080 right here, guys. This is Fury of the Elements. 43 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,280 I'm sorry that the microphone is splitting the box, but you could 44 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,800 see that here. I know most of you are sitting 45 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,640 in your cars, not even watching the video, but why don't you 46 00:02:12,640 --> 00:02:14,560 tell us about Fury of the Elements? 47 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,160 What kind of game is it? What? 48 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,160 What's its key mechanics? So it's a two player strategy 49 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,120 card game. Now they're being more called 50 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,080 expandable card games, trying to kind of bring back that whole 51 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:31,520 LCG, you know, the living card game environment where they were 52 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,520 real hot for a while and they've kind of petered off a bit. 53 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,880 I think this is kind of there's, you're seeing a lot of games 54 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,320 that are in the same realm, but they're doing things a little 55 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,360 bit different. I don't want to say this is in 56 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,960 the same realm as an LCG, but it does have kind of that this 57 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:52,360 game's going to keep going for a while, you know, and it's it's a 58 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,960 two player strategy card game. You're playing on a grid. 59 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,960 You have positional based movement when you're playing the 60 00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:59,640 cards down to attack another card. 61 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,440 It's very similar to it's inspired by triple try it, which 62 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,240 is a mini game off of Final Fantasy search. 63 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,560 OK, all right, so for those of you watching that no Final 64 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,080 Fantasy, you'll you'll know that game well. 65 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,680 I do not know Final Fantasy, so I hope you guys do and you enjoy 66 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:14,800 that. If you want another comparison, 67 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:16,280 just so you kind of know what it is. 68 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,400 While this game is not a trading card game, not a. 69 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,880 Good to know. It is still similar in the realm 70 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:26,040 of games like Paragon TCG and never FTCG kind of in the look 71 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,280 of hey, we both we all use positional based combat. 72 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,440 OK, OK, so we're going to play a card down. 73 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,600 It's got arrows or numbers like their games and that dictates 74 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,720 the direction that it attacks. OK when it goes down. 75 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:39,600 So are you attacking your opponent? 76 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,480 Are you attacking the cards or the Titans? 77 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:43,960 I believe they're called in the game. 78 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,960 So yeah, there's a bunch of different card types, and the 79 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,560 cards that are actually being played down are from two 80 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,000 different decks. The decks mirror each other, so 81 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,840 the game is completely 100% balanced right out-of-the-box. 82 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:56,360 OK. Balance is good. 83 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,120 Unlike a trading card game and some people would argue that 84 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,320 balance is boring. I beg to differ. 85 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,240 And this game has been said to have the perfect balance cycle. 86 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,560 So nice. That was a really big compliment 87 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,040 that I got on it. So, yeah. 88 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,880 But so you're not really attacking your opponent, OK? 89 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,000 What you're trying to do is there's two different modes of 90 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,279 the game, OK? You have Fury, which is a three 91 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,959 by three grid, similar to Triple Triad. 92 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,480 And then we extend it. And that's kind of like the 93 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,200 simple mode gets you the idea of how combat works, right? 94 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,200 Then we extend it to a 5 by 5 and we throw in some other 95 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,600 decks. So while the games, while the 96 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,600 decks mirror each other and they they have the same cards in 97 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,960 there, the same elements, all the same positions, the game is 98 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,920 different because you're actually unlike a lot of these 99 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:44,840 other games where you're playing grid based. 100 00:04:44,840 --> 00:04:47,640 But when I'm playing across from my opponent, they're playing 101 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,280 their card the same direction I'm playing in those games. 102 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:53,520 And I, I, I don't understand that or why. 103 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,040 So I was real adamant about you're on your side of the 104 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:57,080 table. You're gonna play your cards 105 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,120 face up to you when you play my face up to me. 106 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,200 So it kind of turns it into like they're completely different 107 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,200 because they're positioned differently, right. 108 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,360 Yeah. So, so yeah, it's, it's a 109 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:10,960 position combat game. It is. 110 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,600 There's a lot of strategy involved and we can get more 111 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,360 into that as as we go. So you mentioned some other 112 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,720 games that it was like we've talked before the recording 113 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:25,360 about kind of the the evolution of the idea of Fury of the 114 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:27,320 Elements. So what was going on? 115 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,040 What was your inspiration that you like? 116 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,400 What did you see in the TCG and the LCG world that you didn't 117 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,200 like or you did like? And you were like, I think I can 118 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,640 make this better, or I can think I can, I can do this as well. 119 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,000 What was going on at that time when you came up with the idea 120 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:45,960 for this game? So at that time, I was running 121 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,160 our local game store as the manager there, Magic, you know, 122 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:51,600 PCG big game, right? Every store, right? 123 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,120 Pokémon, Yu-gi-oh, those were like the big three, right? 124 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,080 I was playing a different trading card game that was 125 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,840 actually really growing and blowing up in our store and 126 00:05:59,840 --> 00:06:03,480 actually almost worldwide for a good solid four years called A 127 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,000 Force of Will TCG. So that game has some 128 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,560 inspiration. And this game came from Japan, 129 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,400 right? It was a Japan DCG, yeah. 130 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,640 And horse of Will, I love that. It was a really solid game at 131 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,520 the time, so it was some of the inspiration for this. 132 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,480 Obviously I'm really big into video games, so playing all the 133 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,160 Final Fantasies growing up, right? 134 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,840 The best thing, Some people are gonna hate me for this, but as 135 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:28,480 much as I still like the game, the best thing about Final 136 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,760 Fantasy 8 was Triple Triad. It was the mini game that was 137 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:36,440 actually in the in the game that hooked me that I spent so many 138 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,520 hours running around trying to beat everybody, get their cards 139 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,640 and build decks and you know, and keep going. 140 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,520 So it was that feeling of how quick that game was to play and 141 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:50,760 seeing how sometimes in TCG's when you're playing, you can't 142 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,880 even get through one round. I played right, tons of 143 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,160 tournaments and you sit down, you build this deck and like, 144 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,520 OK, by turn 7 I can, I can beat them with this, this right. 145 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:01,160 And it doesn't always work out that way. 146 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,760 Sometimes you don't even get through the first game in the 147 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,120 round, you know, and it affects your your whole tournament 148 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,680 standing. So I was like, what if, you 149 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,160 know, we could make a game that could play in five to 10 minutes 150 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,000 with the smaller version of the three by three. 151 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,840 And if people just wanted to play that, or it was a simple 152 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:20,880 version, they could play it over a cup of coffee, a beer, 153 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:22,720 whatever, because that's all they had time for. 154 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,640 Because face it, that is all people have time for. 155 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:27,160 Sometimes it's true. You know. 156 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,440 It's very true. So I would say Triple Triad and 157 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,240 a handful of TCGS, especially Force of Will, were inspirations 158 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,000 trying to fix some things that were wrong. 159 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:38,560 Well, I can't can't really say wrong. 160 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,480 I'd say for trading card games, there are persistent problems 161 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,200 where you're getting mana flooded, mana ramped. 162 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,080 I'm using Magic as an example for this one. 163 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,720 Force of Will was a little bit different and it didn't quite 164 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,680 work the same, but the idea of having to get resources, having 165 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,880 to get the cards you need and then trying to pull off playing 166 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,520 them just to have everything cancelled and you might as well 167 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:00,800 get up from the table and walk away. 168 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:02,480 Well, you and I talked about this, right? 169 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,640 We talked about the fact that you, you build a theme deck 170 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:07,560 because you're attached to the theme. 171 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:09,520 You have a love for the theme, right? 172 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,200 And I am going to use Magic the Gathering just for a moment. 173 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,080 My, you know, it's my wife built a cat deck. 174 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,840 She loves cats, right? That is a sole reason why she 175 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,040 built the deck. It wasn't what the cards could 176 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,480 do. Then we go and play at the local 177 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,000 game store with if they were friends of ours, but they were 178 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,600 more seasoned and she got wiped out pretty quickly. 179 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,840 And I know that's frustrating. That was frustrating for me to 180 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,159 watch. It's also frustrating as a card 181 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:34,200 game player when I design A game. 182 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,440 And so it sounds like you noticed that that was 183 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,159 problematic. Yeah, I have a kind of a unique 184 00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:43,919 experience here with my resume. So I literally have been on both 185 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:45,760 sides of the counter. I've also worked for 186 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:51,120 distributor, OK, so I talked to store owners and managers on a 187 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,960 regular basis. So now that I'm full into design 188 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:56,760 mode, I've talked to a lot of designers too. 189 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:01,040 So it's taking a lot of information that I've gained 190 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,560 over the years and combine it with information from every 191 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:08,040 different spectrum of the community that we're trying to 192 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:12,560 serve and just trying. I'm not trying to reinvent the 193 00:09:12,560 --> 00:09:13,760 wheel. I'm not trying to make the best 194 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,680 game in the world. I'm trying to make a game that 195 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:20,080 people will enjoy no matter what they play. 196 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,000 If you're a championship Magic player you'll probably still 197 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,960 going to enjoy this because it can be just as competitive, but 198 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:27,360 it's more skill based. OK. 199 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,240 So, OK, yeah, the skill is there while there's luck because it's 200 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:32,800 a card game. You got to draw cards. 201 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:37,120 Sure you have that look I have extensively gone through to try 202 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,880 and make everything balanced in those decks. 203 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,480 So your two power card decks in there are one for each player. 204 00:09:43,560 --> 00:09:47,200 There's 60 cards and there's four elements in those decks. 205 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:52,120 It took a while to get this math right combinations, but when we 206 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,560 finally landed on the magic number per element, everything 207 00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:58,840 clicked and it's 15 cards per element because that gives me 208 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,360 with numbers 123 and four for the power levels of these cards. 209 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,040 It gives me every combination that the arrows could be in 210 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,640 period, every combination one through 4. 211 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,080 So on the fours you have or sorry, on the fours, there's 212 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,600 only four number four cards in the deck, one of each element 213 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,920 because you can only have those fours and one those arrows in 214 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,000 one position, right? And then for the threes, there's 215 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,480 different combinations of where those where the three arrows 216 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:29,680 would be with one open spot. Say that with the twos twos have 217 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:31,880 there's six of those and then there's 4 ones. 218 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,560 It's the same thing, right? Twos are kind of unique because 219 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,920 you can do the up and down, left and right as well as right, you 220 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:42,320 know, so, so it took a while to figure out like, OK, the game 221 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,160 evolved from what we were originally doing and, and things 222 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,200 just kind of fell into place once we got that Magic. 223 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:48,520 No, right. We're like, oh, let's keep these 224 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,360 single colors. Let's put all four colors in the 225 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,800 deck and we have 60 cars. Wow. 226 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,080 People who play Magic are going to feel right at home with that. 227 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,320 Yeah, right. That's that's in the wheel. 228 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,000 So let me ask you a question because so for for my viewers, I 229 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,040 have not played this game. Only tangent tangentially was 230 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,680 looking through the contents before recording. 231 00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:13,760 I noticed that there's dice. Can you tell me what role the 232 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,080 dice play in the game? Yeah, sure. 233 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,680 Right now they play a very small role. 234 00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:21,600 OK, you'll notice that if you saw them, there are six colors. 235 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:23,000 Yeah. So we have 6 elements in the 236 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,320 game. OK, so we've got fire, water, 237 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,520 earth, air, and then we've got what's called void and balance. 238 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,600 Oh, OK, So you have your four normal elements, and then you've 239 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,520 got these two. Like, what the heck are these? 240 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,760 Well, they're kind of the storytellers of the game. 241 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,920 Everything revolves around these two elements and the other ones 242 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:40,840 are kind of along for the ride. OK. 243 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:45,440 So yeah, so basically with with those, with those elements, 244 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,000 there's so many different combinations you can do. 245 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,240 And we consider make cards and keep going, right, combining 246 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,280 them. And we probably won't get to 247 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,000 that at some point, but yeah. So do you foresee because you 248 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,400 talked about it is you see it as an LCG living card game? 249 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:07,080 Do you see it as like big box expansions or like just booster 250 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,720 blister pack types of expansions? 251 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:11,520 How do you how do? How are you envisioning that 252 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:13,720 going forward? Well, the the. 253 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,040 If I'm allowed to ask that question, OK. 254 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,320 It's actually it's one of our key, key selling points for the 255 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,360 game really. We've developed what's called a 256 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,040 modular deck system. Modular deck system? 257 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:24,680 Yeah. How? 258 00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:27,760 How does that work? So how this works is you've got 259 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:29,360 the two power decks that have the elements in it. 260 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,040 Those are the cards that the players are generally playing on 261 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,720 on the field to battle. OK, we've thrown in some spells, 262 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,080 we've thrown in some void cards, we've thrown in some Titans 263 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,760 we'll get into those later, but those are all different decks as 264 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,280 well. OK, they all have server purpose 265 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,360 and how you get those out on the field and what you do is all 266 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,080 it's all trigger based. It's it's different every time 267 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,680 you play, right? So to get these decks using the 268 00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:57,960 modular deck system, if this box in here is the Kickstarter 269 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:02,160 exclusive box, this has the same stuff inside that the retail 270 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,560 version we'll have If we wanted to take one of those void decks, 271 00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:10,600 which consists of 25 cards and say we make an expansion down 272 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,840 the line and we want to do something small or like, hey, 273 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,800 this is a really cool idea just for the void cards, which we 274 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:22,000 actually did backwards. It's kind of interesting. 275 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,120 Thank you Gencon. So basically all you have to do 276 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,520 is just when you set up the game, you take that void deck 277 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,320 out and you put the other one in and your play experience is 278 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,160 completely different. And it's like that for the spell 279 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,680 decks. It's like that for the Titans as 280 00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:37,680 well. So talk about the reverse 281 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,160 engineering of that, right. So I don't let that fall tell us 282 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,000 about that. Reverse is actually a term of 283 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,400 ours. OK, reverse. 284 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,360 Yeah, so the game goes beyond just using the elements in a 285 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,600 normal hierarchy, right? OK, what happened at Gen. con? 286 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,880 So just stay on the topic of the void cards. 287 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,800 The game was a little more complex for the full version of 288 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,640 the 5 by 5 the Titan's fury mode. 289 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,560 OK, OK, so when we're explaining it, people, everybody caught on 290 00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:08,000 everything quick. But the void mechanic was a 291 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,720 little extensive. It was a little too much. 292 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,880 Just a little too much to swallow when you're trying to 293 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:16,480 learn again without reading the rulebook. 294 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:18,520 Okay. And ask explain to you really 295 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,560 quickly because we're trying to Gen. 296 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,600 Con and people are coming up and you're trying to get them seated 297 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,640 and get the plane right. Okay, so they can test it out. 298 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,800 So we had arrows like we have on the power cards positions, 299 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,440 right? Well, we have a grid on our our 300 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,520 playmat, it's 5 by 5. And there's designations on the 301 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,040 void cards of where those go. How they come out doesn't really 302 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,240 matter right now, but they have a spot. 303 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,120 OK. So originally the original 304 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,280 design had arrows on those as well and they were different for 305 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:48,920 each spot that they were on, they pointed different 306 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,240 directions. So when a void card came out, it 307 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,160 interacted with not just a card in its space, but wherever it 308 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,720 was pointing as well. It's a really cool mechanic and 309 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,600 it gets a little more extensive from that. 310 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,560 So we felt like, you know what, it's really good and people 311 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,400 really like it, right? But it's a little too much to 312 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,000 bite on right now. So we want to keep this game 313 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,040 streamlined. You can't make a game for 314 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:15,880 everybody, but we are trying to make it where as many people can 315 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,400 play it as possible, where they don't feel overwhelmed. 316 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,320 Sure, that's different age ranges. 317 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,960 We had so many different age ranges playing this. 318 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,600 It was great. But So what we did was we rolled 319 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,920 back the void mechanic panic a little bit and we simply took 320 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,560 the arrows off and put that mechanic on hold. 321 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,840 So now the only interaction is when the boy card comes out, it 322 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:36,920 interacts with the card in its space. 323 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:37,880 Okay. That's it. 324 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,920 So all this came out in a four day play. 325 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,280 Play testing Play testing at Jen Con. 326 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,120 Yeah, three day for us. Yeah, three day. 327 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:48,720 We took off to actually try and enjoy the. 328 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,120 Good for you. Flew back home to California. 329 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,400 Good for you. People tend to forget, like if 330 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,800 you're a designer and or you're working the con, you need to 331 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,080 take a day for yourself. It was a lot of work. 332 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,080 So I want to ask you, this has been a, you know, if everyone 333 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,240 has been listening, this theme about emotions, vulnerability 334 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,360 and community, right? This has been the theme of my 335 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,360 episode for so long. And I want to talk about, I want 336 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,680 to ask you about the play testing, right? 337 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,440 I guess it's a twofold question. I guess my first, the first part 338 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:22,520 of the question is how easy was it for you to be vulnerable, to 339 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,360 open yourself up to all the possible opinions during this 340 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,960 three day play testing? And then second of all, how did 341 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,240 that go? How successful were you and how 342 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,560 successful did you get? Talk to me about that. 343 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,800 All right. So we've got a lot of management 344 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,320 experience and you've always got higher ups trying to tell you 345 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:40,800 how to do this. I did that right? 346 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,640 I'm pretty resistant. I'm kind of the kind of guy that 347 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:46,160 pushes back a little. Bit right? 348 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:52,320 OK, especially if I'm proven myself time and time again, then 349 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,120 I'm kind of the the resistant one. 350 00:16:54,120 --> 00:17:00,120 But it took a little bit for me to figure out how exactly to do 351 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,360 this. And one of the master classes I 352 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,079 was in of Justin Garry's, he talked about, you know, you've 353 00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:08,160 got to be vulnerable. You've got to be able to take 354 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,640 criticism, positive, negative and and and run with it. 355 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,520 So because of going and this Gen. 356 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,040 Con 2023 was the first public outing for the game. 357 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,640 We actually introduced it to the world over three days. 358 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:28,800 We had well over 8586 people OK play test it just at Gen. 359 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,440 Con. So preparing for that just I had 360 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:37,240 to steel myself and say no matter what they say, take the 361 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,240 feedback, listen to it and even if I don't agree with it, try 362 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,360 and find the value in it. That's not an easy task. 363 00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:48,280 No, that's very difficult. So whether whether it's all 364 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,040 feedback is valuable and and you might get something that's just 365 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,280 like, well, that was, you know, OK, whatever, didn't see that 366 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,120 coming order. And nine times that 10. 367 00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:57,520 I'll be completely transparent here. 368 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,440 When you're a designer and you've gone through one of the 369 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,200 secret sauces of game design, which is iteration, most likely, 370 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,480 I've already come up with what anything anybody else is going 371 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,160 to come up with, right? But you never know. 372 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,400 And there might just be some little thing pops up. 373 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,600 And there was, oh, there was this. 374 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,760 Oh, it was perfect. So this young gentleman came up 375 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:20,720 and played on the Thursday. OK. 376 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,480 And he said, man, I asked him. It's like I asked. 377 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,640 Everybody said, hey, did you win or lose? 378 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,640 I lost. OK, let me ask you this. 379 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,240 Did you have fun? Yes. 380 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,040 Good question. I did my job then. 381 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,320 If you have fun losing that should be a decent game. 382 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,480 I agree, right. So he gave us one piece of 383 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:38,640 feedback. He's like, there's just one 384 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,800 thing that nags at me with this and he's like your spell cards. 385 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,280 I love what they do when I can use them. 386 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,320 I was like, OK, he's like, I just I can't use them because 387 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,960 basically you get us the spell cards on are on what's called a 388 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,960 clash deck. OK Clash spell deck and the top. 389 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,000 That's one of the two decks. One of those decks, OK, it's one 390 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,880 of those other decks that I was talking about, the 25 card deck 391 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,600 and the top card is is is is face up. 392 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,880 OK, so and this is kind of odd because most people would expect 393 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,760 to be face down and they're just gonna draw it. 394 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,480 I agree. But there's a method to this 395 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,120 madness, and we've play tested multiple times, every way you 396 00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:19,120 can think of. This is what we settled on 397 00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:23,280 because it was the highest stakes because now you know what 398 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,800 you're playing for, you know what you're fighting for. 399 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,520 So what you're trying to do is that spell deck is a community 400 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,600 deck. So when OK, you're when you do a 401 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,680 certain mechanic, it unlocks the ability for you to get one of 402 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:36,440 those spells and then the next one flips over. 403 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,800 Some of them have field effects that affect everything instantly 404 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,120 until somebody gets it right. And then some of them are cards 405 00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:46,320 that you use when you want to, not instant speed. 406 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,080 It's not like a trading card game where you can react and 407 00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:51,800 dump your hand or anything like that. 408 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,760 You can't. It's very specific. 409 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,960 Everybody gets to play and that's again another reason why 410 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,040 it's so balanced. It's very quick. 411 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:00,880 I'm playing a card, you're playing a card. 412 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:02,360 OK, cool. I'm going to do another 413 00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:04,600 interaction now. I'm going to lean to before I 414 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,120 play card out of my hand, I'm going to play this spell card 415 00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:11,200 that I won earlier, which goes in one of two spell slots for 416 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,120 you to save spell slots. And there's reason. 417 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:16,400 There's two. There's a reason. 418 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,160 We'll talk about that reason another time. 419 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:23,440 All right, two slots. And you can save those spells 420 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:24,600 for later for when you need them. 421 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,960 So a piece of feedback we got was, is there a way I can use 422 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,600 this later or is there some other thing we could do with the 423 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,680 spell to make it useful all the time? 424 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,040 The game is very situational based, meaning that because you 425 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,840 still have RNG from all these decks, including your own decks, 426 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,480 and they're, they're still balanced, meaning you can always 427 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,040 play something. It doesn't always mean that the 428 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,760 effect that a Titan has or the the effect that a spell has is 429 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,360 going to be what's needed right at the moment. 430 00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:55,600 And that's OK, because that's part of the charm of the game. 431 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,520 If you had every tool in your arsenal at every given moment 432 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,080 and could do everything, then it wouldn't really be fun, right? 433 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:03,800 There's got to be some restriction. 434 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:09,560 So the he asked us that and we went back that night to the 435 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,480 hotel room. My Co designer Omar and I and 436 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,680 our friend Zach who was helping at the con, we talked about it 437 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,920 and we're like you know what? Let's for the rest of the con 438 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,400 put a static ability. We'll just tell everybody, hey, 439 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,680 there's a hidden ability on the card that isn't there. 440 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,560 It's because it's a piece of feedback we got. 441 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,640 We want to try it out. It's play testing, so go for it. 442 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,760 So what we did was we said that all these spells have their own 443 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,840 effects. We gave a static effect across 444 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:38,000 the deck that says draw 2 cards and put back any two you don't 445 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,160 want at the bottom. Everybody that plays card games, 446 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,760 especially trading card games, loves deck filtering. 447 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:48,960 So it was that I was so happy with that piece of feedback and 448 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,840 then being able to come up with a resolution so quickly. 449 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,840 And it stuck. The second we did that, he came 450 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,440 back on Saturday and I told him he was just like, perfect. 451 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,520 That that was what he was. Looking for perfect. 452 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,000 Nice. So, yeah, so it kind of got me 453 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,280 right here, you know? Yeah. 454 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,080 And I imagine that that motivated you beyond Gen. 455 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,880 Con when you got home, right? Oh yeah, so he's not the only 456 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,080 one to give us feedback. We took feedback sheets. 457 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,200 Yep, We we did a little just real quick for them. 458 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,640 Didn't take any personal information, which might have 459 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,320 been a mistake, but I was trying to respect people's privacy, you 460 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,600 know? But we took all this feedback 461 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,360 that they gave us and I went through most of it and I was 462 00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:28,720 like, OK, most of this, it's good feedback, but it's stuff 463 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,200 we've already tried or stuff that's not going to work. 464 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,840 Some of this stuff will work later and we've already got 465 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,600 plans for that. So hopefully they'll stick 466 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,920 around and they'll see that, hey, we did listen and we were 467 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,360 thinking on the same page as them, just not for the base 468 00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:43,560 game. So yeah, I was, I was really 469 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,560 happy with that outcome. I was real happy with. 470 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,360 It was there any during those, during that three days, was 471 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:53,720 there a moment where the feedback was either the feedback 472 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,000 was difficult or the person giving it was difficult? 473 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:58,360 I mean, we're all human, right? Yeah. 474 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,520 So. So you told me a good story. 475 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,000 Was there an opposite story? And if so, how did you deal with 476 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,080 that? This is going to blow your mind. 477 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,560 You're. Going to tell me there wasn't. 478 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,640 And this is. Anything negative to say? 479 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,720 It's not that they didn't have anything negative to say because 480 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,280 I wrote down everything, went through everybody's survey and 481 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,600 there was a little bit of negativity, but it wasn't what I 482 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,880 expected. I expected people straight up 483 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,680 say this game's trash, I don't like it, get off the table, 484 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:25,840 don't even think about it, you know, whatever. 485 00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:30,000 None of that, Absolutely none. The most negative thing we got 486 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,200 was the spell card right issue, and the void was too complicated 487 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:35,920 and there was just too much to swallow. 488 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,600 And then there were a few situations that just came up 489 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,360 with cards being played a certain way that we hadn't fully 490 00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:44,400 realized like that could be done. 491 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,160 Didn't see that one coming. We thought we saw all the 492 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,320 situations. There's a few we didn't see. 493 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,880 That was it out of like 86 people, right? 494 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,960 That was it. So that right there told me that 495 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,520 okay. You've got a good product. 496 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,560 We're on the right track right now. 497 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,000 Let's go back and give them all the visual stuff that they want 498 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,400 to see. They want to see more stuff on 499 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,720 the cards to differentiate them between each other. 500 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:11,120 So one power deck is purple, it's got it's it's accented with 501 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:14,680 purple on the back and the front, and then the other one is 502 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,400 yellow. There's a reason for this. 503 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,960 I saw the, saw the yellow cards. I'll get to the reason in a 504 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,440 second, but they wanted just a little bit more visibility to 505 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,360 just make them a little more distinct. 506 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,520 OK, It's one thing, you're playing them upside down from 507 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,160 each other. That should be a pretty good 508 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,080 indicator. But sometimes all those colors 509 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,120 can blend, especially if you're color blind. 510 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,000 Yes, which brings me to my next point. 511 00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:38,000 We designed theory of the elements to be accessible to 512 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,280 color blind, OK? That is why we used purple and 513 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:42,440 yellow. Wow. 514 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,240 OK, talk. So I don't know a lot about 515 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,160 visual impairments or color blindness in particular. 516 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,240 Talk to me about that. So I'm not, I'm not saying that 517 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,440 it's perfect. We we did our best to do some 518 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,400 research and we have a very close friend that's really 519 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,400 colorblind. OK, so we figured we would use 520 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,800 purple. Well, we researched that purple 521 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,640 and yellow were two really good contrasting colors that allow 522 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,240 them, if they can't still see the color, that they are starkly 523 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,680 different, that they stand out. OK, see I didn't. 524 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,560 Know that not only does it fit our theme because balance is 525 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,960 yellow and void is purple, OK, there was a underlying reason 526 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:23,880 for using them and, and that was it. 527 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,560 So in addition to that, outside of colour, we made sure that we 528 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,760 put the elements or any important information that 529 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,560 that's visual where it can always be seen whether the cards 530 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,080 in your hand. I moved an emblem from the Gen. 531 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,280 Con version of the element under the number. 532 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,160 So when you're holding them in your hand, you've got the 533 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,600 element and the number right. So it doesn't matter if you can 534 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,080 see the colour or not That's cool. 535 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,840 Everything OK, Everything is set up that way. 536 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,800 Writing cards, the spell cards, everything. 537 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,800 So there's also an interesting component, one of the things 538 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,000 when I was getting ready for this episode, I was reading the 539 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,120 rules a little bit. I noticed like so there's 540 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,880 there's six elements and you can I don't know if manipulate the 541 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,520 right word and I don't know that this game inspired it, but this 542 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,960 is what I thought. And Please remember, I have not 543 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,720 played the game yet, so I'm going to learn this this 544 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,040 weekend. I got the feeling of like Uno 545 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,720 right, Whatever your opinion on Uno is, But I was thinking of 546 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,480 hey, because there's there's a way where like red beats green, 547 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,400 but you could somehow reverse that. 548 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,560 OK, now you bring. I always said reverse was one of 549 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,320 our. Here we go, reverse. 550 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:32,080 OK, so Uno was also a, an inspiration for it too. 551 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,960 But when you're talking about the game, you're trying to do a 552 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,560 tagline something real quick, you know, 2 sentences. 553 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,560 You can't say it was inspired by 15 games. 554 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:40,840 No, you can't. You got to cut it down. 555 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,160 You got to do something. So I, I, I went with triple 556 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,680 Triad originally was triple Triad Magic the Gathering, but 557 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,680 that's mainly because of the spell art and the spell types 558 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,440 and stuff like that. It it's familiar, but reverse. 559 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,080 So I was looking at Uno deck and when we first designed Fury, we 560 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,680 started with 52 cards, an actual playing card deck. 561 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,400 OK, OK, because there's four suits, right? 562 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,840 And we wanted four elements on the power cards. 563 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,000 Those are the only ones we were worried about at the time, 564 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:07,440 right? Void and balance word for 565 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,800 something else. So we're like, OK, well, what 566 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,280 are we doing? So originally we actually had 567 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,320 one through 13 because, well, there's 13 cards for six. 568 00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:16,560 Right. Right, but we, you had the void 569 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,720 cards in your hand. We had some cards that were 570 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,560 called charge cards that did kind of like a wild card out in 571 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,360 the field and it was cool. But as we refine it, like I said 572 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:27,440 earlier, and we got down to that Magic number and the way 573 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,600 everything worked, we we scrapped that. 574 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,480 But that was the original inspiration. 575 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,640 Now Uno, it's funny you bring that up because yes, I used kind 576 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,160 of the color scheme. OK, Why did I use the color 577 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,680 scheme? Well, I mean, they're elements. 578 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,840 They're going to have that red, blue-green, you know, but Uno's 579 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,080 very familiar with a lot of people. 580 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,560 It is a lot of people. So it's very simple. 581 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,360 You see a color and a number. Some of them have symbols, 582 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,800 that's it. If you look at my power cards, 583 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,400 you have a number, a symbol, and some arrows. 584 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,160 The picture on there is just for flavor. 585 00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:59,560 The only text on that card is the name of the creature that's 586 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:00,160 on it. That's. 587 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,240 The point? OK. 588 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,680 It was to keep it simple. So using Uno as an inspiration 589 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,640 for that was actually really, I think, good idea because keeping 590 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,760 the base part, the combat simple in terms of not having to read a 591 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,040 card and just play it speeds up the game. 592 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,640 Keeping the other spells to one sentence or so also lends to 593 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,160 that. But reverse. 594 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,400 We have a special card and it's in everyone of our games that 595 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:31,080 we've designed and we're trying to make sure that mechanic is in 596 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,360 every game. We design for the theory of the 597 00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:36,080 Elements universe, and we have other games too, but for that, 598 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,920 this is our our front runners. We have a card that's called an 599 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,600 elemental reverse card. So it's cool when you play 600 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,480 Pokémon and you've got this big hierarchy, this piece, this 601 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,960 piece, this piece isn't just going around a big circle. 602 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,080 Well, we're like, well, we're not going to get into that many 603 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,200 elements because that's just too complex for a card game. 604 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,560 So we'll simplify it. We'll use the four. 605 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,440 What can we do to spice this up? I want to do something where we 606 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,200 can reverse something here like I want to change the game state 607 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,040 right Yep, reverse the elements. Nice. 608 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,440 So you have this card and on one side it has a normal hierarchy 609 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,280 that you would expect water beats fire, fire beats land, 610 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,000 land beats air, air beats water right. 611 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,440 You gotta have something. And in some other games, you 612 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,520 know that hierarchy changes a little bit based on however they 613 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,280 design it. So it's it's somewhat different 614 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,000 in in a few other games, but for the gist of it, that's a normal 615 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,400 hierarchy and that's cool. Well, it'd be really cool if you 616 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,240 could literally reverse it and then make every everything in 617 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:31,480 your hand play completely different. 618 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,800 Wow. So your 60 card deck just became 619 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:34,880 120. Yeah. 620 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,480 Because now you can, because cards that you were going to 621 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,880 play that were like maybe a filler move, they're like, I'm 622 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,200 going to play this one because it's it's the best play here. 623 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,200 I don't want to. I've got these trump cards in my 624 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,520 hand. I don't want to expose these too 625 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,080 early. It's not worth playing these to 626 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,440 capture these cards because I'm only going to get one or two. 627 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,880 I want to try and save it to get a big pull, right? 628 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,920 Well, what if you like a problem in TCG? 629 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,560 You got a handful of stuff you can't use, whether it's land, 630 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,520 whether it's spells, because you don't have the land. 631 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,840 That's a problem, or that is definitely a problem. 632 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,440 So this was another way to kind of fix that. 633 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,360 I like it. So no resources, that's no 634 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:11,520 resource. That's incredible. 635 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:18,160 No resources and you'll thank me later because the game flows so 636 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,800 smooth it's just so quick. It's like chess. 637 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,640 You want to plan a few moves ahead, right And sometimes 638 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,920 there'll be a little bit of analysis paralysis because you 639 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,480 there are some hidden stuff that unless you've played the game a 640 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,560 few times or you just really catch on to it real quick and 641 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,720 you can see it there are some amazing combos you can pull The 642 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,600 whole point is to capture your opponent's cards and collect 643 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,080 them and that becomes your point total at the end of the game. 644 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,760 So when you're when you're doing that, you're trying to play 645 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,560 these one through 4 cards to capture as many at one time as 646 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,840 you can. So the fours are extremely 647 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,560 powerful in that regard because they can tack four ways. 648 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,480 They can potentially take 4 cards, but what if you could 649 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,200 take 12 with one one play? I mean, that's, that's kind of a 650 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,240 bold move, yeah. So when you combo off with a 651 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,880 spell, a tighten ability, and the power card, you play, and 652 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,520 then you get to follow up with another power card because that 653 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,080 spell told you to play a power card. 654 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,480 And you still have to play your card, your power card per turn, 655 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,360 and draw back up to your maximum hand size. 656 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,880 So it stays even, right? Yeah, you can pull off some 657 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,600 crazy combos. So like I said, at the end of 658 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,400 the day, it's a strategy card game. 659 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,160 It's an expandable card game through the modular deck system, 660 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,600 and I love trading card games. There's always a place for them. 661 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:31,960 There's a lot of them coming out. 662 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,320 A lot of really good ones have come out. 663 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,040 It's true. I didn't want to compete with 664 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,040 that. It started off being designed as 665 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,880 one, but at the end of the day, you should never design your 666 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,600 first game as a trading card game. 667 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,240 Sound advice. Because the resources you need 668 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,440 to actually pull that off are insane. 669 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,440 So, well, I know some of you at home are probably doing just 670 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,920 that. Good luck. 671 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,720 I wish you the best success in that. 672 00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,120 But I would tell you if you could put that aside or refine 673 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,200 it down to a base game like we did with this, then lead into 674 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,640 that or make it a separate game in the same universe because you 675 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,480 like the theme. You want to link them? 676 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,800 That would be my advice is do something like that because 677 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,360 there's a lot to learn. I knew a lot about game design 678 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,360 like when I joined Justin Gary's master class, everyone was 679 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,080 looking at the game like is this game done like already? 680 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,920 Cuz the art like one of the biggest compliments we get 681 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:25,000 especially at Gen. Con. 682 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:26,880 The art, the art, the art, the art. 683 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,320 The art work is amazing. And art from a visual standpoint 684 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,320 sells games, so we wanted to have good artwork. 685 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,800 Absolutely. Selling a game and keeping a 686 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,200 customer for life because the game's good, right? 687 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,280 Yeah, that that's a big one. So we've talked about all this 688 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,880 play testing back in Gen. Con 2023. 689 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:48,440 Here we two years later, what is the current status of Fury of 690 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:49,800 the Elements? The game was supposed to 691 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,000 originally launch last March. It was done. 692 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:54,360 Yeah. I took all that feedback from 693 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:54,800 Gen. Con. 694 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,800 I had it done in the airport on the way home from Gen. 695 00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,640 Con. I've been a graphic designer for 696 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,800 25 years, so that landed me the ability to actually create the 697 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,520 game from the design point. I didn't have to wait on a 698 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,440 graphic designer. I didn't have to shell out the 699 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,520 money for that. I've spent thousands of hours, 700 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,680 yeah, thousands, right, doing this. 701 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,040 Thousands of hours, folks. So that's a challenge, but. 702 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,640 You've got it, you've got it, you've got a Kickstarter launch 703 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,960 page right now. Yes, there is a pre launch page 704 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,080 up pre launch. The game itself is, it's done, 705 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,840 it's ready to go. Everything you saw on the box 706 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:29,760 earlier, there'll be other videos where you'll see 707 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,120 components and whatnot, but everything is done. 708 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,320 Nothing's changing now. Mechanic wise, it's good to go. 709 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,040 We could have launched last March. 710 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,400 There was a series of unfortunate events that happened 711 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,400 and hey, life happens, you know? But it's ready to go. 712 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:48,000 I'm trying to get the advertising funds to do the next 713 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,400 round of ad testing and hope that people gravitate to it. 714 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,320 Don't confuse it like they did last March during the ad testing 715 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,040 as a trading card game. Because Paragon and never if TCG 716 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,400 both came out at the same time and Battlegrid wasn't far behind 717 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,680 them or just ahead of them. So there were games out there 718 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,920 that looked like mine. They were all trading card 719 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,159 games. Fury is not a trading card game. 720 00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:12,239 It's a strategy card game, yes, right. 721 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,760 That's very important. You made that clear multiple 722 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:15,480 times. Right. 723 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,920 We tried to fix what people complain about, about trading 724 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,120 card games, right? We still made it competitive. 725 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,159 We held a tournament last year at a con. 726 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:24,679 Yeah, crowned our first champion. 727 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,639 There you go. So yeah, there's that. 728 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,040 But yeah, we tried to fix all the problems that we recognize 729 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,199 with trading card games. Complaints that I used to hear 730 00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:36,400 in the store working or when I work for the distributor or 731 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,639 other managers and owners were talking to me like, hey, you can 732 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:41,880 people complain about this? Is there another game that maybe 733 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,159 doesn't have this type of mechanic that I could introduce 734 00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:46,600 to them? And that, again, all that stuff, 735 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,920 my entire experience is what prompted that, Yeah. 736 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,080 So pre launch page on Kickstarter, anyone can go now 737 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,639 and follow it. So make sure to do that check it 738 00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:57,680 out. Fury of the elements. 739 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,600 So here here's my I think my last question for you, right? 740 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,520 It's pretty much the same question I've asked of every 741 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,320 designer in the last few weeks, right? 742 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,280 We have a trade war going on. The tariff situation with China 743 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,640 is problematic and constantly in a state of flux, right? 744 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,080 So what what do you see is your biggest obstacle? 745 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,280 What I'm I'm, you know, what do you, what do you think about 746 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,320 trying to launch this game, whether it be in the next month, 747 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,680 this summer, in the midst of all that, how difficult is that 748 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,320 going to be and how do you brave through that? 749 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,280 It has already put challenges on us and we haven't even launched 750 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,800 yet because we know that some backers, people that would 751 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,920 normally back stuff, have backed off because they don't want to 752 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,920 spend the extra money. And they're not wrong, you know, 753 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,880 they shouldn't have to. And I'm doing everything I can 754 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,760 to absorb what I can. The game is mostly, I do have a 755 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,800 Co designer and I do have a friend that helps with the 756 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,120 marketing and stuff at cons, but the game's mostly done by me, 757 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,840 one person. So it's outside of our 758 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,360 commissioned artwork and licensed assets, stuff like 759 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,880 that. But it's already a challenge 760 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,520 enough and now I've got to deal with this. 761 00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:07,440 I'm trying to raise funds so that I can do this for the rest 762 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,240 of my life, because Fury's not just a game, it's an entire 763 00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:12,760 universe. I've got two other games that 764 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,720 are going to be on that Kickstarter with it in the same 765 00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:16,360 universe. So you're planning on launching 766 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,560 them together? There was a silver lining to not 767 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,520 launching last March, so the game Affinity War and Elemental 768 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,160 Fury will also be there as add-ons and they'll be included. 769 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,680 I think the highest, the highest tier we have, they'll be 770 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,200 included in there. Some of the stretch goals you're 771 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:33,600 going to want to follow this campaign. 772 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,840 I will say one of the things I've really enjoyed about what 773 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,200 I've seen from the game has to do with, and I noticed this a 774 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,400 lot with designers is the design of the box itself. 775 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,480 One of our friends in England, Becky, a Missus, get into games 776 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,560 and she complaints constantly about all the negative space, 777 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,680 the empty space in a box, right? You have a little card game and 778 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,080 it's in this big box and there's all this cardboard that you get 779 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:57,520 rid of. That's very frustrating. 780 00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,960 But here's the thing. So if you want to, if you 781 00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:01,720 haven't gone to Kickstarter, look at this. 782 00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:02,880 I'm telling you, this is really cool. 783 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,320 It has a neoprene mat and it rolls up and there's a slot 784 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,160 where it fits. And I'm thinking of a couple of 785 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:09,560 games recently. Well, that's done. 786 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,240 And I just want to say kudos that that right there is a huge 787 00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:19,520 design element that is just the chef's kiss, as someone would 788 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,360 say. Thank you, that was definitely 789 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,120 one of the things I was adamant about. 790 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,080 Everybody was like, you could like Adam's got the prototype 791 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,560 version and the box is this big. I've already saw it at Gencon. 792 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,360 Yep, 200 cards fit and that just fine. 793 00:37:31,720 --> 00:37:35,240 But I was going above and beyond because I believe in value, yes. 794 00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:38,760 So when you get this game, yeah, you get that neoprene mat. 795 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,800 So I wanted a box that would fit the mat and expansions all in 796 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:43,920 the box. I noticed that. 797 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,840 I noticed that too. So back to the trade war. 798 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,000 Stuff, right? What else have I done? 799 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,960 So I've opted to not do expansions in big boxes like 800 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,400 this until later on. There will be one specific one 801 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,880 because there was a sister box to this that people were 802 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:00,880 expecting because they saw the artwork for it. 803 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,520 We are saving it though, and it's actually a good thing we're 804 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,600 saving it because it's going to be so much more special when 805 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,360 they get that. But overall, all of our Bach, 806 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,040 all of our decks come in tuck boxes. 807 00:38:11,240 --> 00:38:13,760 I noticed that. All of the expansions that 808 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,440 they'll come in tuck boxes, unless there's too many cards, 809 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,840 then we'll make a box, but we won't go all out on it like we 810 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,440 did with this. This is a very thick, heavy duty 811 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,360 box. It is high gloss right off the 812 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:25,520 bat. You're not getting that 813 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,200 printing, you're getting high gloss. 814 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,040 Because I wanted the box to last longer. 815 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,640 I wanted to reflect UV light some Yep, so it wouldn't be sun 816 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,000 bleached. So yeah, neoprene mat. 817 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,560 That was by design. I was adamant about it. 818 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,000 Could I have done a smaller box, made this game cheaper? 819 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,280 Sure. But I found other ways to 820 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,520 increase the value of it and what people are getting and 821 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,640 fight the trade war in my own way by reducing waste and 822 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,480 reducing what people would probably throw out anyway if I'm 823 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,360 making a box like this to hold most of the stuff. 824 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,520 So I have to ask, and I'm sure you've already gotten this 825 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,600 question from feedback from folks. 826 00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:05,520 Will the box be able to accommodate all the cards 827 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,760 sleeved? And then the follow up question 828 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,760 is, are you doing an add on or a stretch goal where you will have 829 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,640 sleeves of the artwork itself? So this is where I've had a 830 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:19,520 hard, hard time. Sure, I'm nobody in in this 831 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:20,480 world right now. I'm. 832 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,360 Nobody right now, OK. So it's been very difficult 833 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,000 partnering with people. I've been flat out ghosted, no 834 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,240 responses for three months, multiple emails sent phone 835 00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:32,000 calls. It's been a tough Rd. 836 00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:34,800 But we did partner with Titan Shield. 837 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,640 To provide. Sleeves on our second tier and 838 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,240 above game comes with sleeves. Game comes with sleeves. 839 00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:43,920 And each tier you get more and more because in those tiers 840 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,440 there's more stuff that's included that needs sleeves, 841 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,320 including the other games. Well, there you go. 842 00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:52,240 So we'll hold sleeves and we'll come with sleeves at the 2nd, 843 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,200 2nd. 2nd tier at the first tier I made super accessible to 844 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:57,480 people. People are going to look at and 845 00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,960 go like, why is this, this price? 846 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:01,200 Right, right. Sure. 847 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,560 I am kind of taking it in the shorts on that one. 848 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,800 But the my thing isn't so much the amount that the Kickstarter 849 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,320 raises is to a degree of transparency there we are trying 850 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,480 to raise money, right? But I'd rather have the volume 851 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,920 and more customers so that all the games for the entire 852 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,680 universe that we've got 10,000 years of war laid out. 853 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,120 We're doing games from card games to TTRPG. 854 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,880 We want them to be on board. Nice, nice. 855 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:28,680 It sounds like you're covering all the bases. 856 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:30,880 I love it. I think it's great. 857 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,920 So it's Fury of the Elements, a strategy card game, not 858 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:37,960 collectible or because customize. 859 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,120 Well, I guess no customizable card game sounds excite. 860 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,880 Where can people find you and where can they follow you and 861 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,160 find Fury of the Elements? Biggest places to follow us are 862 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,720 on Instagram OK Fury, CG, Facebook. 863 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:53,240 Just look up fury of the elements. 864 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,920 Our website isfurycg.com super simple. 865 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,560 Fury, CG dot. We are on Board Game Geek as 866 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,200 well. And then our Kickstarter pre 867 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,720 launch page. You can go to the website, you 868 00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:06,320 can go to our Instagram, we've got that thing plastered 869 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,120 everywhere. You can become a VIP if you 870 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:09,840 want. And I understand the problem 871 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,560 with that for some people putting the dollar down, but 872 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,840 I've made an out for everybody because I'm trying to make sure 873 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:17,400 that bases are covered like. Right. 874 00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:18,880 Right. If you don't like the dollar 875 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,960 down, skip it. Go right to the There You Go, 876 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:22,640 the Kickstarter page and just follow. 877 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,880 Yeah, check it out. If it looks good, if it looks 878 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,240 like something you might want to back in the future, then, you 879 00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:29,360 know, go ahead and follow it. I know that that a lot of 880 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,600 designers talk about it's really important to get the followers 881 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,680 ahead of time and how that translates in the backers. 882 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:38,000 So Mark, thank you so much for agreeing to come on the show. 883 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,600 Help me out a little bit to get my mojo back after being out for 884 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,040 several weeks. And again, thank you to Adam 885 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,120 from Tabletop Vibes for lending us his studio. 886 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,360 And so when we're done, I think we're going to play Fear of the 887 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,400 Elements and I'm going to learn about Titans and Void and 888 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,960 Balance and see how great these games really are. 889 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,280 So thanks again. Appreciate me and thank you, 890 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,520 Adam for letting us use your studio as I flew into California 891 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,640 almost unannounced. Almost, but he made it, so we're 892 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,320 happy. So thanks again, guys. 893 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,600 And TuneIn next week, we've got a lot more coming up. 894 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,560 I've got some series as planned. Gareth and I are talking about 895 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,400 what's going to happen with the future of the podcast. 896 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,400 So stay tuned and don't forget to hit that like and subscribe 897 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,560 button. We are trying to get 100 898 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,560 subscribers by October, where it'll be one year anniversary on 899 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:25,800 YouTube. So thanks again guys.