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Welcome to Meeple to Meeple, 
uniting players around the 

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world. 
A 30 minute exploration of TJ 

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and Gareth 4 game experiences 
from across both sides of the 

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Atlantic. 
Each episode they share their 

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thoughts and opinions on the 
world of four games, including 

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their favorite themes, games, 
hot topics, and much, much more.

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Gareth on vacation, he decided 
to go to Greece with his family 

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and leave me all by myself 
again. 

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And so I have complete and total
control. 

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So I've asked one of our good 
friends, Kristen Mott, to join 

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me this week in interviewing our
guest. 

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Kristen, thank you for doing 
this. 

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How are you? 
I indeed and you are so welcome.

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This is my first time Co hosting
anything so I apologize there. 

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No. 
Any mistakes in advance, but I'm

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happy to be here. 
This is. 

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Great there are there are only 
mistakes, only opportunities. 

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The Gareth and I talk about 
wanting to generate more Co 

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hosts. 
We want the podcast to grow in 

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such a way where it's not just 
Gareth and I anymore and there's

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always two content creators who 
are interviewing designers and 

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artists and you know, want to 
try to like the tagline says, 

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unite the world, right, Unite 
players around the world. 

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So, so thanks for doing this. 
Sure. 

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And you're also a game designer 
in your own right, Which? 

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Makes you. 
A perfect candidate for this 

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interview with our special 
guest. 

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We have game designer Danielle 
Reynolds of the recent hit and 

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Gen. 
Con Trending 2024 award that was

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given to you on Sunday. 
Danielle Reynolds. 

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Danielle, how are you? 
I'm doing good and my voice is 

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mostly back from Gen. 
Con surprisingly pretty quick. 

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You do sound good after four 
days, 5 days and Gen. 

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Con. 
Oh, I was there. 

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No, I was there for six days 
working. 

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Yeah, last. 
Tuesday and I left on Monday. 

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Yeah, they got us there extra 
long. 

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That is crazy multiple. 
Events before the show even 

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starts. 
Well, you're kind of a machine 

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in this industry like you are. 
You're just pumping out and 

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play, testing so many games and 
designing so many. 

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Obviously, her story everyone 
knows about love the game, but 

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your most recent hit, caution 
signs. 

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I want to start with the award 
from Gen. 

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Con real quick. 
So what was that like when they 

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made the announcement? 
I saw you posted pictures, 

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right? 
Like how cool was that? 

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No, I was super cool. 
It was funny because Scott was 

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worried. 
He's like, I mean, in his view, 

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he has Hughes and cues, he has 
boop like two massive successes.

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His next one is caution signs. 
And like, yeah, I was doing 

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good. 
It just got released. 

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And I kept telling him I was 
like, dude, you're not seeing 

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like everywhere. 
I take it people are playing it 

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everywhere. 
And then we get this award and I

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sent him a text message because 
I had it in my hand and I was 

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like, where are you? 
Come to the booth right now. 

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We're taking pictures and stuff.
And then he he like zooms his 

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way over and I was like, because
I've never had a best of 

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anything before. 
Oh, that's awesome. 

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Congratulations. 
Thanks. 

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I didn't actually know the award
existed, which made it kind of 

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that much better because it's 
not something I could like not 

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to say, force someone into or be
like nudge, nudge, you know, I 

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don't know. 
I've noticed now since working 

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in the industry that there are a
lot of awards that you have to 

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like pay to be nominated for or 
like it's popularity vote. 

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And it's just like when it's a 
situation not like that, it 

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means so much more to me. 
Absolutely. 

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Yeah. 
It's it's well, well deserved. 

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So I want to ask you, since you 
brought up Scott, I wanted to 

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ask about your partnership with 
Scott. 

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How did, how did that come 
about? 

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How did the two of you, your 
projects started? 

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And can you tell us a little bit
about that? 

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Yeah, so I met him 2 packs and 
plugs ago and it was actually 

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when Boop released, he was at 
the Smirk and Dagger. 

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Boop and I had like known Kurt 
'cause he was one of the 

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publishers I would pitch to 
when, you know, I was starting 

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out and I was like, oh, cute cat
game and stuff. 

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And so I was like, tell me about
it. 

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And then the guy is just like, 
well, I actually designed it and

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it was Scott and stuff. 
And he like explains it to me 

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and I'm like, all right, sold. 
Like I'll buy it and stuff. 

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And so I have him sign it 'cause
I could tell he wanted to, well,

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he had a marker and stuff and we
said absolutely. 

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And I like give him my card 
because I have a podcast called 

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Game Design on Box. 
And I tell him I want him on it 

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because I find out he did Q's 
and Q's. 

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And I used to work for Fujifilm 
Graphic Systems like doing like 

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printing and stuff. 
So it's like I was very familiar

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with printing and he also had a 
printer background. 

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So we kind of like nerded out in
that brief period of time 

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because I had an exhibitor 
badge. 

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So this is like before the hall 
opened. 

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So I had time to bring a 
conversation with him. 

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So exchange information, our 
business cards, I followed up, 

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he went on my show and just like
before and after recording, we 

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like got to know each other more
and stuff and we just hit it off

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and we both ended up being 
special guests at Tantrum Con. 

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He has known Monica for quite 
some time because his wife is 

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very close to Monica, who runs 
Tantrum Con. 

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And Darrell Andrews had 
recommended me as a special 

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guest. 
And so Monica's like, oh, I 

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gotta interview this girl and 
see what she's about. 

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And then what was supposed to be
like a 15 minute conversation 

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turned into like a three hour 
conversation with Monica. 

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And now we are friends. 
I've stayed at her house and 

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I've gone to Tantrum Con and we 
are like, great. 

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So it's like find these like 
weird things of just meeting 

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people, really enjoying each 
other's company and just kind of

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becoming like friends 
organically. 

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But when I was at Tantrum Con, 
Scott saw one of my two player 

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abstract games, which he 
actually really loves. 

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And he like every time he gets a
chance to like try to find 

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someone to sign it, he's like 
can like check out this game. 

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Like he actually took the 
prototype and had me sign it. 

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So the first game I ever signed 
was not actually a real 

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published game that I gave to 
him. 

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It's my prototype of. 
This. 

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That's awesome. 
Yeah, great. 

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Out in the same way with like 
party games and abstracts. 

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And so he'd reached out to me 
and he's like, I want to make a 

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game with you, like a party 
game. 

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And I was like, OK. 
And so we're like kind of 

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messaging each other. 
We're both like on vacation. 

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And I tend to be most inspired 
on vacation. 

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And I'm in Hawaii and. 
OK. 

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All right. 
Well, 'cause I met a different 

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person at a convention who 
invited me to Hawaii, so. 

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I of course said yes. 
This is kind of how my life 

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goes. 
I just like I meet cool people 

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they they are dumb enough to 
invite me and then I show. 

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Them so. 
Yeah, but I'm like in Hawaii and

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we're like walking around 
national or the Okino National 

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Park. 
And I'm with like, Tanya, who is

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from Hasbro, Like, she's 
inventor relations. 

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We've become friends and she 
just happens to be there on her 

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anniversary with her husband. 
And then I'm with my friend 

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Annie. 
And we're like walking around 

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and I'm just like, noticing all 
these caution signs of just dumb

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things that people did to make 
them necessary as signs like 

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stepping in lava or don't put 
your arm in a guy. 

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I'm just like, what do? 
You. 

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Why or like these like gecko 
things, I don't even know. 

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So I'm like noticing these signs
on the island, but like a lot at

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that part. 
And we're talking party games 

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with Tanya and I just 
immediately like I messaged 

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Scott is like, what do you think
about a game about caution 

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signs? 
Like we're drawing these 

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pictures warning. 
I get these crazy things that 

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you never even expect and stuff.
And he's like, yeah, I like 

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that. 
I like that. 

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So he's in Alaska and he's also 
seeing weird signs like don't 

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pet a moose. 
And so he's like, I'm so on 

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board with this. 
We both get back from our 

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vacations. 
We hop on a call. 

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We get up like a Google 
spreadsheet, plugging in like 

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words, decide to split up the 
cards in half. 

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I come up with, I like quickly 
put together a play test, like a

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prototype, bring it over to 
Maine with my friends. 

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We played the crap out of it. 
My friend stole my prototype. 

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She still has my original 
prototype. 

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And then, yeah, just like 
2:00-ish weeks later, we pitched

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it at Gen. 
Con and he made the, like, fancy

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version that had the split 
cards. 

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And that was the first time I 
ever saw that look. 

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And just like the product of how
it looked as a little caution 

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sign forming, we showed it and 
we got two offers at the show. 

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And that's never happened to me 
before. 

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And I was just like, oh, my God.
And there's a bunch of other 

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people interested. 
But like the two offers we got, 

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one of them said, hey, you got 
to let us know in two weeks. 

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We're not doing this, like, back
and forth thing. 

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And so we're like, e-mail 
everybody, hey, tell us in this 

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amount of time. 
And the other person that wanted

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it was my own company, which at 
the time made no sense to me 

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because hero rooms and star 
rooms, you don't really think 

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the party game that you draw. 
But what I didn't know is my 

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company had been thinking about 
doing an imprint for years of 

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just like kind of kids family 
party games. 

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And so they were like this, this
is what we want to use to launch

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this. 
Like, what do you think? 

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Sign your game with your own 
company. 

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And I'm like, it's got So what, 
What do you think? 

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So we had a conversation and we 
did decide to like sign it with 

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Wise Wizard. 
And I got to launch Wacky Wizard

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as the project director. 
So I kind of like upgraded my 

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title from project manager of 
Wise Wizard to project director 

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of Wacky Wizard and the imprint.
So it was a pretty crazy story. 

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That's awesome. 
Yeah, that is incredible. 

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Your story about Scott, kind of 
that organic relationship is so 

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similar to Gareth and I's 
friendship where and our 

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listeners have heard this so 
many times. 

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But I showed up on his Maple 
Monday during the pandemic and 

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what was supposed to be a 30 
minute conversation was a four 

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hour Instagram Live of just him 
and I talking. 

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And we've been friends ever 
since. 

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So it was interesting because 
you had like 30-40 people 

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watching and then it went down 
to like 2. 

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Yeah, that's what I was 
wondering. 

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But then, but then it got to be 
5:00 in the afternoon in the 

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United States because it was 
8:00 at night in England to 

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start. 
And so people started getting 

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off work and checking their 
Instagram. 

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Then the numbers went up again. 
We're like, Yep, yeah, that's, 

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that's cool. 
That's interesting. 

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I like that. 
So, So tell me, tell me more 

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about play testing because I've 
watched you post. 

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Gosh, it feels like it feels 
like forever, but it was 

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probably like a flash in a pan. 
You were constantly taking 

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photos, posting them on 
Instagram and other social media

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platforms, basically taking 
caution signs everywhere you 

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went. 
And I'm with your family with 

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anyone and anyone I imagine, 
right, playing caution sites. 

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Is it so, is that how is that 
how you approach that or did you

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do like what are all the play 
testing avenues that you used 

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for caution sites? 
Oh, are we talking just like how

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I found my play testers? 
Yeah. 

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Yeah, so honestly, you're not 
wrong. 

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I just, I brought my prototype 
freaking everywhere. 

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Like I had the most interesting 
meet ups with people. 

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Like I was in New York City at a
bar and there was a bunch of 

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Brazilian women celebrating 
hitting 40 years old. 

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And it was just like a bunch of 
cousins and I had them play and 

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it was really cool because it 
made me like that's how I 

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00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:23,680
stripped out a few words that 
were like really difficult for 

228
00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:26,360
non local like language 
speakers. 

229
00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,760
But also at the back of the rule
book now we have like little 

230
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,160
rules for like kids or for 
people who don't speak English 

231
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,920
or whatever current language the
game is in because hopefully 

232
00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:36,360
someday it'll be in other 
languages. 

233
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,520
But just like those are some 
little play tests that I did or 

234
00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,800
like I went to schools for like 
during the summer, like their 

235
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,120
summer programs, they invited me
in to like teach the kids about 

236
00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,400
game design and to like play 
tests. 

237
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,240
And I like went around and 
judged different kids. 

238
00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,840
Like it almost looked like 
science fair projects, but it's 

239
00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,720
their game designs and stuff. 
So I went to like schools. 

240
00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,880
I went to like after school 
programs, I went to friends 

241
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:08,040
houses, family reunions, my gym,
my like rock climbing gym, just 

242
00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,800
like anywhere, everywhere. 
Tons of conventions and tons of 

243
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,200
like kind of play test 
conventions like Unpub. 

244
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,360
I went to like basically every 
unpubbed room at all the major 

245
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,120
conventions bringing it around. 
And it's weird because like 

246
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,560
caution signs, the main design 
was has stayed the same like 

247
00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:28,120
from that initial two weeks or 
whatever it was me figuring out 

248
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,880
the 20 seconds, Scott coming up 
with the scoring system. 

249
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,160
And just like that was good. 
It was the word list that was 

250
00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,200
the thing that we had to 
constantly keep tweaking, 

251
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,200
throwing things away, adding 
things back and trying to find 

252
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,200
the perfect balance of kind of 
like similar verbs and similar 

253
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,920
like nouns. 
I mean, pretty early on we kind 

254
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,240
of realized with the nouns 
especially that we needed to 

255
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,120
stick to either like animals and
like humanist things because 

256
00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,120
originally we have things like 
you could draw a desk or a 

257
00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,440
chair, but it's like how to show
emotions using like inanimate 

258
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,200
objects just didn't work well. 
And also it was more fun with 

259
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,800
the 20 seconds that things could
get misconstrued and messed up. 

260
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,080
So it's like a werewolf could 
become a wolf or like a werewolf

261
00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,800
could become a dog or like a cat
could be a whatever. 

262
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,960
So just like in a short amount 
of time, like a horse and a cat 

263
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,600
could maybe actually look 
similar or a wolf or whatever it

264
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,440
was. 
And so just like trying to 

265
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,120
figure out the perfect mix 
between all those, but then also

266
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,120
having them be words that people
knew. 

267
00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,920
But even now that the game is 
like out and I've been playing 

268
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,480
with a lot more people from 
other countries, like there's 

269
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,880
certain words that people are 
just like are unfamiliar with. 

270
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,720
So like disco, we totally know 
what disco is, but disco means 

271
00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:41,720
to other things and other 
places. 

272
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,960
And like a Roadrunner, that's a 
bird native to like I'm from 

273
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,040
Arizona, so I wanted to put a 
Roadrunner in there. 

274
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,680
It's not a native bird to most 
people. 

275
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:51,320
Like it's only just in the 
United States. 

276
00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,560
And then like Mexico, Canada, 
like they kind of know what it 

277
00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:54,840
is. 
But like in Europe, everyone 

278
00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:56,520
like draws a dude running on a 
Rd. 

279
00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:01,480
And so it's like, it's cool 
because like you don't have that

280
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,960
same perspective. 
Because I always wondered when 

281
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,680
I've been like asked to be, they
have like language consultants 

282
00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:10,480
to like help switch things over.
They do do English to English, 

283
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,280
but it's like like you could 
have like in Montreal, like 

284
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,600
French. 
English is very different from 

285
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,120
like in the UK English or like 
US English in the United States 

286
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,520
because we all like interchange 
words so much or. 

287
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,160
I don't like. 
Australia, like different words 

288
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,760
mean different things, like 
trousers and pants, but pants 

289
00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:28,840
could also mean underwear. 
And it's just like, weird. 

290
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:31,760
So yeah. 
So it's like you learn a lot 

291
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,280
through making these kind of 
word games. 

292
00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:37,280
But it's super fun to test. 
And just like anywhere I went, 

293
00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,840
if I was playing at a bar, just 
like random people be like, 

294
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,400
wait, can I, can I play this 
too? 

295
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,800
And I was like, heck yeah, you 
can sit on down. 

296
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,840
Like, I let anyone who talks to 
me play this game, no matter the

297
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,520
age, including kids that super 
could not read well. 

298
00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:52,960
Yeah. 
But it was fun. 

299
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:54,880
It was a good time. 
And it kind of just showed me, 

300
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,800
like, the magic of the game, 
that it's just like, you don't 

301
00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:59,920
have to be good at drawing. 
You don't even really need to be

302
00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:01,800
that good at guessing. 
Most people don't even keep 

303
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,000
track of score. 
They just play for fun and they 

304
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:11,480
laugh their butts off. 
That's accurate. 

305
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,080
Yeah, I am. 
I'm learning so much. 

306
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,200
Just listening. 
You talk about like your where 

307
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,320
you get play testers and how how
you do. 

308
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,920
Like I feel like I overuse my 
play testers a little bit. 

309
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,360
So like going back into the same
people over and over again. 

310
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,640
I also don't have a game design 
group anymore because if you'd 

311
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,400
asked me this when I lived in 
Chicago, I used to have four 

312
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,320
different game design groups and
I would just like do one. 

313
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,000
I know it was great. 
I'm at Chicago. 

314
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:39,800
I was a machine in a different 
way there. 

315
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,400
But like, because I live 
essentially alone on an island 

316
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,080
with no game designers nearby or
like, not really close by, I 

317
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,520
have to drop like an hour and a 
half to Boston or whatever. 

318
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,400
I had to learn to find new 
people, which is really good for

319
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,040
me as a designer. 
But also most of the people near

320
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,400
me are not gamers. 
They're all just like the person

321
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,280
who would walk into a target and
go, oh, that's a pretty box. 

322
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,360
I'm gonna read that. 
So it's like I design in that 

323
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,080
space and those are my audience.
So it's like my audience are the

324
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:08,680
best people to be my play 
tossers. 

325
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,480
And thankfully, because I'm 
stuck alone with no game 

326
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,280
designers, my only interaction 
with game designers is play 

327
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,200
tossers or at conventions right 
now or if I do it online. 

328
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,080
But party games, they just don't
test online, especially caution 

329
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:21,640
signs that would never have 
worked online. 

330
00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:23,160
Sure. 
Yeah. 

331
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,160
And so is that what you're 
focusing on at the moment is are

332
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,760
you focusing more on party type 
games, things that you can test 

333
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,920
with people in your area more 
easily? 

334
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,160
I will say that I definitely, I 
call them social games. 

335
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,520
So it's like, yeah, party games,
deduction games, but also some 

336
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,920
light strategy and some other 
ones too. 

337
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:46,360
But I have definitely started 
focusing more on that because of

338
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,720
the people in my area. 
But also just those are the 

339
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,440
games I found that I'm the best 
at making and also the quickest 

340
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,280
at play testing. 
Yeah. 

341
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,600
Yeah, I like, I can work on 15 
different games at one time and 

342
00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,280
it's not overwhelming for me. 
I know. 

343
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,240
Oh wow, Anyone wasn't able to 
see her? 

344
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,480
She had a fanatic. 
Face is so funny. 15 at a time. 

345
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,119
Yeah. 
Oh my gosh. 

346
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,480
And I'll. 
Have like I'll play seven games 

347
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,000
in one night because all the 
games don't take that long to 

348
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,040
play. 
They take like 1530 minutes or 

349
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,560
whatever it is and we just like 
we bust them out. 

350
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,480
They're so simple. 
Like I can go through my 15 game

351
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,079
pitch deck and I can do that in 
like 10 minutes, 1020 minutes, 

352
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,680
like I'm a beast. 
I just like I can tell you what 

353
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,800
it is with just a picture and 
just a minute or less 

354
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,960
description. 
And that's the kind of games 

355
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,800
that are currently doing well 
right now and are going into 

356
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,840
like mass market, whether it's a
hobby game or a mass market 

357
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,200
game. 
It's just people's attention 

358
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,920
span are shrinking. 
And so the faster I can explain 

359
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,000
what the game is and does, the 
better it's worked out for me at

360
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,760
least. 
And I think that's a main reason

361
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,440
why I've had so many games in 
such a short time come out. 

362
00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:55,720
Yeah, OK, that's, that's 
awesome. 

363
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,920
And you're you'd say, oh, I can 
get through all, I can explain 

364
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,120
all 15 to you in 10 minutes. 
Like absolutely blows my mind. 

365
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:04,320
That's that's great. 
Yeah. 

366
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,040
I know someday I should probably
record myself doing it and like 

367
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,120
show people what it looks like 
to do that. 

368
00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:12,120
Maybe it would be helpful to 
people I don't know. 

369
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,240
I'd love to see it 'cause 
sometimes I feel like I don't. 

370
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,040
I mean, I don't design party 
games for the most part, but 

371
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,200
like, I tend to get stuck and 
like trip over myself when I'm 

372
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,520
trying to even give the elevator
pitch. 

373
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,360
The short explanation. 
This is what it does because I 

374
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,520
tend to give too many 
unnecessary details and you 

375
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,600
know. 
It's just knowing when it's like

376
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,200
a an elevator pitch versus a how
to play. 

377
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,360
Even. 
My how to plays are less than 5 

378
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:43,360
minutes for everything and that 
includes my heavier like I've 

379
00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:46,280
made heavier games too and 
explain them in less than 5 

380
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,880
minutes. 
Good for you. 

381
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,600
That's great. 
The two of you have just 

382
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,520
confirmed to me there's a quote 
from Lord Cheston in 16th 

383
00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,440
century and he wrote a letter. 
He goes, I'm sorry, I wrote you 

384
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,880
a 20 page letter. 
I didn't have time to write you 

385
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,760
a one page letter. 
And it's expressing how hard it 

386
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,640
is to write concisely. 
And I feel like that's true for 

387
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,120
speaking. 
I think any mode of 

388
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:14,360
communication to be concise and 
quick is so challenging and we 

389
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:16,720
get tripped up like that. 
But that's what was going 

390
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,320
through my head while listening 
to you just now. 

391
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,600
I'm like, that's, that's 
awesome. 

392
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:25,640
So I have a question about 
pitches recently in my one day, 

393
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,760
and I wanted to remind my 
listeners, don't do Gen. 

394
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,760
Con in a single day. 
I don't recommend it. 

395
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,880
That was the that was the thesis
of last week's episode where I 

396
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,160
talked about my experience. 
You shouldn't do it. 

397
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,160
And I made all my cases, but 
somebody's going to do it 

398
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:41,440
anyway. 
Gen. 

399
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,640
Con sells Sunday badges, so 
there you are. 

400
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,920
But I recently learned about 
pitches and there's two types of

401
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,480
pitches. 
There's like there's the 32nd 

402
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,040
and I'm guessing that's what 
you're calling the elevator 

403
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,000
pitch. 
And then there's like the three 

404
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,800
minute, the three minute 
description to the publisher. 

405
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,080
I, I heard of several designers 
while I was a Gen. 

406
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,120
Con talk about that and you're 
making a face. 

407
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:06,200
So I. 
Am making a face. 

408
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,520
Yeah. 
So that means that that your 

409
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,080
experience is different. 
I would say so. 

410
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,000
So I would definitely say an 
elevator pitch would have been 

411
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:15,760
the three minutes, not the 30 
minutes, OK. 

412
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:20,160
No, I'm sorry, 30, the 32nd and 
the three minute. 

413
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,960
If I said. 30 minutes, I 
apologize. 

414
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,920
The 32nd and the three minute 
and I'm just trying to 

415
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,680
contextualize what I heard 
versus what I just heard you 

416
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,560
describe. 
So interesting. 

417
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,880
So I guess in my experience, 
typically pitching has been 

418
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,280
either like a preset 30 minute 
meeting where you could either 

419
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,240
run through. 
Like in my case, I have a pitch 

420
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,560
deck. 
So what I'll do is I'll bring my

421
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,640
prototypes, but I will have my 
pitch deck out, which is just 

422
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,520
like a slideshow and of sell 
sheets, just all in the same 

423
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,800
look and we'll go through each 
one. 

424
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,320
And then at the end, so it's 
like I take 10 minutes to go 

425
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,120
through that. 
And at the end, if there's a 

426
00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:03,600
game that interests them, I have
it in my bag. 

427
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,280
So we could play around or two 
where I can show them the 

428
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,200
components to touch. 
And then at that point we would 

429
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,240
do a follow up meeting or they 
would take a prototype home or 

430
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,240
they'd ask for like how to play 
video or whatever it is that 

431
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,400
they do. 
So that's like one thing. 

432
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,400
Or you could be doing like the 
speed pitching events, kind of 

433
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,040
like speed dating essentially 
where you have a set amount of 

434
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,240
time and you get to pitch. 
Sometimes you have it where 

435
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,040
you've like applied with the 
specific game, so you're only 

436
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,400
showing that one game. 
Sometimes you just have a 

437
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,640
specific amount of time. 
So maybe it's like 1020 minutes 

438
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,760
or five minutes and you can do 
whatever you want with that 

439
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:37,800
time. 
And so doing your research 

440
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,440
because in those cases, you 
always know which publishers 

441
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,560
you're meeting with. 
So you can do that research to 

442
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,720
know which games you should be 
kind of targeting for each 

443
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,360
publisher or what things you 
should kind of like lean into or

444
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:51,320
lean out of. 
Because sometimes in speed 

445
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,000
pitching, you have publishers 
that you know are not a good fit

446
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,880
for your game, but it's still 
time for you to network and show

447
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,120
off who you are. 
So they maybe we'll talk to you 

448
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:01,720
later when you do have a game 
that fits or just talk to them 

449
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,920
about the games that they're 
looking for if, you know you 

450
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,160
don't have something for them 
right now. 

451
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,800
But yeah, so I think like, 
that's more of what I think of 

452
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,320
when I think of pitching. 
I don't do cold calls at Gen. 

453
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,880
Con because that just does not 
work. 

454
00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:18,640
I've been asked at Gen. 
Con now because people know me 

455
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,560
if I have time to do one and 
then maybe I'll do it like 

456
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,080
before the opening of the show. 
But that's just because I'm 

457
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,680
doing them a favor. 
More than like me because I just

458
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,200
don't have time because of how 
much I'm working at Wise Lizard 

459
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,200
right now. 
But. 

460
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,760
Yeah, definitely don't approach 
someone asking for a pitch 

461
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,240
without a meeting at Gen. 
Con. 

462
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,240
You'll you're probably going to 
get a no, and it's not going to 

463
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,760
be because it's you, it's just 
because everyone has their 

464
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,400
schedules booked out like two 
weeks at least in advance. 

465
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,040
That. 
That sounds right. 

466
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,320
In fact, in last week's episode 
talking about my experience, I 

467
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,440
made the comment about the 
content creators that I was 

468
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,120
hanging out with, you know, 
small group of us that are close

469
00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:00,120
friends and they're all have 
meetings. 

470
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,480
You know, that still boggles my 
mind. 

471
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:08,440
I I have not yet scheduled a 
meeting with anyone yet, but you

472
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,200
know, maybe I'll change that. 
That's. 

473
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,760
Crazy. 
That's that is just insane. 

474
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:20,200
So I want to ask you about 
something that you posted today 

475
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:25,800
or the time of recording. 
It was about your two cents for 

476
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:30,040
two player games and Sky Team 
winning the spiel the yard 

477
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,360
having my. 
Cat break my award and smash my 

478
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,520
no but OK I. 
Saw that too. 

479
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,600
I'm so sorry I wasn't. 
Gonna bring that up. 

480
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:47,880
Rising star award is now in half
so but we still love our. 

481
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:53,920
Cats we still love. 
Yes, but you said? 

482
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,880
2. 
Player Yeah, it was so. 

483
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,720
It was about, it was about Sky 
Team winning this field of yard 

484
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,400
this year and it was 
interesting. 

485
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,320
I thought. 
So I was thinking about I read 

486
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,400
the whole article and I was 
like, of course this makes sense

487
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,720
because there's so many two 
player games. 

488
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:16,760
I mean, Katie and I own I think 
25 two player games, which is 

489
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:17,920
great because it's the two of 
us. 

490
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:22,080
But your comments I found just 
interesting, right? 

491
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:23,760
There's not a critique. 
I just thought it was really 

492
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,920
surprising that you brought a 
different reading the whole 

493
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:28,560
article. 
And I encourage our listeners to

494
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,000
go and find that article and 
read it. 

495
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,160
Your perspective was a little 
bit different and it was about 

496
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,520
how difficult pitching the two 
player game in your experience 

497
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,080
has been and you're kind of 
cautioned against that a little.

498
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,160
And I was just wondering if you 
could was there, can you say a 

499
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:45,840
little bit more about that? 
Yeah, I know. 

500
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,840
I. 
Totally can, and I tend to be 

501
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:52,120
the weird one, so that's fine. 
Well, for one, I would say Sky 

502
00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:54,120
Team. 
I actually don't necessarily 

503
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:56,440
think it was because it's a two 
player game that it did so well.

504
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,360
I think it was the Co-op nature 
of it. 

505
00:24:58,360 --> 00:25:00,400
Like cooperative games have been
on the rise for a while. 

506
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,760
That's why I've been designing a
lot of like cooperative party 

507
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,680
games and like social games. 
But as far as two player games 

508
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,440
go, kind of like I mentioned, 
Scott was super into my two 

509
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,120
player abstract. 
Like he tried for years to get 

510
00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:17,200
boot signed, but it was just 
like it didn't have the cute cat

511
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:18,800
theme. 
Like that was Kurt and Spark and

512
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,320
Dagger kind of put that on 
there. 

513
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,440
And as we've seen, it's doing 
really well. 

514
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,840
The cute little name and the 
cute little cat and the 

515
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,520
different like holiday themes. 
Like it does really well. 

516
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,800
But the problem is 2 player 
abstracts are super difficult to

517
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,480
sell. 
Two player games in general, 

518
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,440
when you are a designer pitching
to a publisher, very difficult 

519
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,160
to sell. 
It has been shut down almost 

520
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,200
every time. 
Like they hear two player and 

521
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:43,520
they don't even listen to my 
pitch. 

522
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,440
Wow. 
And so that's why I was like, 

523
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,120
you know, for a newer designer, 
if you only have so much energy 

524
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:53,360
and time, I would advise not 
focusing on that. 

525
00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:56,480
Now, if you have a passionate 
project, like you're just, this 

526
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,960
is the game you want to work on,
I would never advise don't do 

527
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:00,960
it. 
But if you're like going through

528
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,920
all the different mechanics, 
'cause I know a lot of designers

529
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,320
when they first start out, 
they're like, I'm gonna make a 

530
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,160
game with every mechanic and I'm
gonna try this and then and 

531
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,360
this. 
I would say like put two player 

532
00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:13,120
lower on that list just because 
I do think there is definitely a

533
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:15,160
market for two player games. 
Like if you go to board game 

534
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,840
cafes and board game cafes are 
appearing everywhere nowadays, 

535
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,480
like date night games or two 
player games. 

536
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,480
I mean even Exploding Kittens 
just released a game that's a 

537
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,960
party game, but it has a date 
night mode for two players. 

538
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:30,560
And so it's like people are 
recognizing that two player 

539
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,280
games are important and like 
having games that can play well 

540
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,880
at two is super important, 
especially multiplayer. 

541
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,120
I said that in the Article 2 
that a lot of players would 

542
00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:40,640
hate. 
Like when there's a two player 

543
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,880
variant, they're almost would 
prefer it say three to four 

544
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,480
players with two player variants
on the box. 

545
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:46,560
Yes. 
Yeah. 

546
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:48,680
See. 
Because like it is a strong 

547
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,280
feeling we have, but publishers,
they need to be able to market 

548
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:54,560
games. 
And if it's like a super 

549
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,960
expensive game, it's just really
hard to justify 2 player because

550
00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,320
it's kind of a risk they're 
taking. 

551
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:04,760
And I get it, I don't like 
believe in all of it, but I just

552
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,360
say like, yeah, it wouldn't be 
one of the things I would 

553
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:11,880
recommend shooting for right now
'cause most publishers, like 

554
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,640
they do solo modes are now huge 
because of COVID. 

555
00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:18,680
They weren't huge before. 
But now it's like publishers 

556
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,320
would ideally love like at least
a one to five player game. 

557
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,120
Like I keep hearing one to five 
or one to six or two to six. 

558
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,280
Like it needs to play with more 
people. 

559
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,360
But. 
At least like two to four is the

560
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:33,560
bare minimum typically. 
So it's just not something I 

561
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,040
tell people they should focus 
on. 

562
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,080
And two player abstract games is
even harder because especially 

563
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,920
if it doesn't have like some 
cute thematic angle to it as a 

564
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,360
product, it's just really, 
really difficult to get place. 

565
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:45,440
Which thanks, because like, the 
only game I've ever thought 

566
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,560
about maybe self-publishing is 
my two player abstract because I

567
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,640
love it so much. 
And I'm so close, so many. 

568
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,000
Times and I'm just getting 
annoyed at this point. 

569
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,400
I'm like this needs to come out.
I even did the artwork on it, 

570
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,880
like someone could just sign it 
and have my art and it would be 

571
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,920
done. 
Someone. 

572
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:03,720
Needs to sign this because as a 
avid fan of two player games, I 

573
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:04,480
want. 
A copy and. 

574
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,840
I want to play it. 
It's really interesting because 

575
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,840
when Katie and I go to cons and,
you know, you're walking the 

576
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,560
hall and someone's like, hey, 
you want to play our game, You 

577
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,480
want to demo our game. 
And it's like as soon as we see 

578
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,600
the three to three to whatever 
number. 

579
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:19,240
Yeah, yeah. 
We're. 

580
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:24,560
We're we're totally checked out 
or I'll be talking to a guy and 

581
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,160
he's clearly trying to, you 
know, they trying to sell it to 

582
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,000
the guy. 
I I really hate. 

583
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:30,760
That's The thing is whenever to 
the. 

584
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,960
Girl, I don't know what you're. 
Doing but but. 

585
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,240
But vendors do that. 
If they ignore my wife, I 

586
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,200
usually tune out. 
Right, But but sometimes they'll

587
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,040
be taught teaching us a game, 
The guy, the guy or the girl, 

588
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,840
the person who's pitching the 
game to us to sell it. 

589
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,760
And they're treating us with 
respect and it's great. 

590
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,320
My wife immediately. 
How does this play A2 player? 

591
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,200
That is her first question. 
Yeah, No, it's an. 

592
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,680
Important question I get asked 
all the time and sometimes like 

593
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,320
even because I do development, 
it's like if it doesn't play go 

594
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,400
to two players, sometimes it's 
worth cutting. 

595
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,640
I mean, we have a kids game 
coming for wacky. 

596
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,360
There's a two player variant. 
It is super fun at two players, 

597
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,160
but it is a variant. 
So it's like it is very clearly 

598
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,440
marked inside the rule book. 
That is a two player variant, 

599
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,400
but it's also the mechanic in it
could be used at three or four 

600
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,640
or even five players. 
So we even have a little note 

601
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,800
that says if you like this, add 
it to the rest of the player 

602
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,760
counts because it's just like 
fun because you're adding in 

603
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,440
like a little dummy player that 
we call a lot, a lot because a 

604
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:35,840
little Penguin. 
Oh gosh, that sounds that's 

605
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,520
great. 
And and kudos for being included

606
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,040
in that article. 
Like, oh. 

607
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:42,240
God, no. 
It was so nice. 

608
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,040
They reached out and was like, 
oh God, it's Gen. 

609
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,040
Con week. 
I guess I'll like quickly type 

610
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,480
something up like on my phone at
the airport. 

611
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,760
Wow. 
I'm glad I made sense because I 

612
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:56,120
didn't think I would well. 
And I thought not only because I

613
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:02,080
have a relationship with you and
know you personally, your answer

614
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,880
stood out from the rest. 
And I was thrilled reading it 

615
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,960
today, knowing that I was going 
to do this recording tonight. 

616
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,800
I was like, I want to ask you 
about this because I thought it 

617
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,200
was really interesting and it 
was really compelling. 

618
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,200
And I was like, so. 
So thanks for taking the time. 

619
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,640
Field field that question. 
Yeah, I know. 

620
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,600
Mojo does some really cool 
articles. 

621
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,400
I got asked to do this like 
extrovert introvert article. 

622
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,040
And I also talked very different
from everyone else about like, 

623
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,600
I'm an extrovert but no one ever
talks about the bad part of 

624
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,760
being an extrovert. 
Like the crashes we get after 

625
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,720
conventions and how like 
depression can hit us and things

626
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,000
like that. 
And I actually wrote about it in

627
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,880
mine where everyone else is 
like, oh damn. 

628
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,160
Oh, I also experienced that. 
But we never talk about it. 

629
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:44,800
And it was like, I don't know 
why we don't talk about it. 

630
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,560
It's important. 
Mental health is a huge thing. 

631
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,320
Yep. 
Nope, I understand that as an 

632
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,200
extrovert myself. 
People just assume that I talk 

633
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,000
to anyone at all times and it's 
like. 

634
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,760
I don't. 
Want to though? 

635
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,520
I wouldn't, but I'd rather with 
my friends or cuddle with my 

636
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,000
cats and they're not breaking 
things. 

637
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,280
Yes. 
When they're not. 

638
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,400
Breaking your awards? 
Absolutely. 

639
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:12,240
Yeah, absolutely. 
So I I am all out of questions. 

640
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,160
Kristen, do you have anything 
for Danielle? 

641
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,640
I mean, I would really like to 
hear more about just and you got

642
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,240
into it a little bit, but more 
about your just process as a 

643
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,560
designer. 
You talked about having seeing 

644
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,280
the caution signs in that part 
and like that was an instant 

645
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,360
inspiration. 
So what do you do after that? 

646
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,360
Do you write things down? 
Do you immediately just make the

647
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,120
bare my own prototype that you 
can and then how does it develop

648
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:40,240
them there? 
Sure. 

649
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,080
So when it's a situation like 
caution signs where it's just 

650
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,560
inspiration in life, I 
immediately, if I don't have my 

651
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,120
notebook nearby, I'll jot it 
down to my notes on my phone. 

652
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,600
But then I transfer it into, I 
have a game design notebook and 

653
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,520
I go through them very quickly 
and I love them because they're 

654
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,320
kind of like grid paper, but 
it's like with dots. 

655
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,680
So you can like write or draw 
pretty easily. 

656
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,720
So that's like kind of my go to.
And I I. 

657
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,960
Put stickers all over it, which 
makes me happy. 

658
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,080
Yeah, 'cause that's important 
for game design purposes. 

659
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:17,280
But yeah, so like I, I'll just 
like, draw out kind of like a 

660
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,440
doodle of what I think it would 
look like. 

661
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,560
And then I'll like write out 
examples and I'll write out what

662
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,040
I think the rules would look 
like. 

663
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,560
And then once I've like done 
that, I do actually jump pretty 

664
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,840
much that day or the next day if
it's something that I really 

665
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,000
like into creating a prototype. 
And so depending on the game, it

666
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,880
might be like a Google sheet 
with a bunch of words of what 

667
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,280
the cards are going to be or 
maybe it's more like an 

668
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,120
illustrated game. 
So it's like I'm quickly going 

669
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,880
to like do some graphic design 
and put something together or I 

670
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,480
like steal some images off the 
Internet that I can use as the 

671
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,400
prototype. 
But I definitely build the 

672
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,040
prototype very quickly because 
you might forget, you might lose

673
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,200
like that spark. 
And so I find that that's just 

674
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,800
an easier thing to do. 
And also when I worked at 

675
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,520
Underdog, they did this crazy 
thing when I got laid off. 

676
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,120
They gave me more time to finish
up my projects, but also because

677
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,120
I was going to be there longer, 
they wanted to just see like, 

678
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:09,720
how many things could we come up
with? 

679
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,560
And so they challenged me to 
design essentially almost a game

680
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,000
a day. 
So like every day. 

681
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,800
Something I. 
Prototyped it, we play tested 

682
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,800
it, they tore it apart. 
I would come up with a second 

683
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,320
version of it the next day we 
would play, I would change it, 

684
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,800
prototype, play, test and then 
toss it and then repeat for like

685
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,440
2 months. 
I became a crazy ass machine 

686
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,960
where I was just like, like just
pumping them out and I still 

687
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,880
have that. 
Like my brain, the muscle has 

688
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,680
been created to do that. 
And so. 

689
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,240
I am able to kind of not cut 
corners but make things faster 

690
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,960
for myself, OK? 
And. 

691
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,840
I thankfully have a lot of, 
like, friends that are very 

692
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,520
willing to be like play tossers 
and be my, like little dummies 

693
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,200
to just be like, hey, we're 
gonna do this, OK? 

694
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:55,920
Actually, this room, we're gonna
change this, OK? 

695
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:57,920
This room, we're gonna do this. 
And they're like very excited to

696
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,280
be a part of that process 
because they like having the 

697
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,240
ability to say when they like 
something or when they don't 

698
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:04,800
like something. 
Like I have a few of them that 

699
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,760
are very opinionated about games
and they're not even. 

700
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,440
Gamers. 
But they're just like, oh, 

701
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,880
Monopoly, if they had changed 
this and I was like, well, then 

702
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,440
like, in this game, what would 
you be like this game? 

703
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,760
Yeah. 
But yeah, So like really just 

704
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,360
like getting it out as fast as 
possible out of my head and like

705
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,840
onto the table to see if it's 
something worth investing in. 

706
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,960
Because like I'm OK to just 
throw away a prototype at this 

707
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:29,960
point. 
Now that I've done the other 

708
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,080
side where it's like inventor 
relations, if I'm going to 

709
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,840
reject my like if I would reject
it, I'm not going to put time 

710
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,840
into it. 
And so I've got a lot better at 

711
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,239
like kind of killing off my 
darlings or like rebooting 

712
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,719
previous things that I maybe 
liked a lot before. 

713
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,639
Or if I get stuck on something, 
I'll add a Co designer who has 

714
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:47,600
like a skill set that I didn't 
have. 

715
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:49,920
And it's kind of cool to be able
to do that. 

716
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,199
But it's also my process for 
like inspiration, inspired 

717
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:56,120
designs is very different from 
my process. 

718
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,160
If someone reaches out to me 
asking for me to design 

719
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,680
something within like a spec 
that they have, like that's 

720
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,800
super different too. 
Because like in that case, 

721
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,320
they're telling me like, hey, 
this game is gonna cost this 

722
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:07,880
much money. 
It needs to be this theme. 

723
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,920
We want this kind of play 
pattern and we need this and 

724
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,040
that and this. 
And here's your timeline like 

725
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,560
that is a very different 
challenge where in the case like

726
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,160
that, I actually sometimes will 
pull out like a dry erase board 

727
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,920
and just or I also dry erase 
cards which are super fun for 

728
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,960
prototyping and. 
Then I'll whip them out. 

729
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,960
Versus my kind of game, I would 
just already do the spreadsheet.

730
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,600
I print them out. 
I'd use my cutter and I'd have 

731
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,320
cards. 
Also, I don't sleeve things. 

732
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,360
That is not a thing I print on 
thicker paper and I just cut 

733
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:35,880
them so then it feels like a 
card. 

734
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,360
It saves me so much time. 
Yeah, see, I am learning so 

735
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,280
much. 
Happy to help. 

736
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,880
Yeah. 
No, I I like being as efficient 

737
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,720
as possible because I pack way 
too much into my life at one 

738
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:49,680
time, so it's like. 
How can I cut? 

739
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:51,520
Some corners and make this 
faster for myself. 

740
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:53,440
OK. 
So I do have a follow up 

741
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,880
question. 
When you talk about somebody, a 

742
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,840
publisher coming to you saying I
need this within these 

743
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:04,280
stipulations, how do you like, 
how do you deal with that in 

744
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,080
your mind? 
Like, how do you find 

745
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:10,080
inspiration within this sort of 
music, I guess, of what has to 

746
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,680
be done? 
Right. 

747
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,600
Like, do I have to do it this 
way? 

748
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:19,320
I'm not just inspired by 
something that I saw or did. 

749
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,120
Like how is that different from 
you in your mind? 

750
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,680
So it's. 
Different because what I'll be 

751
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,200
doing is once I know what 
they're looking for, I create 

752
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,160
kind of like a presentation that
I'll give to them, which will 

753
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,080
depending on like how in depth I
go, it might just be like a 

754
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,040
paragraph of this is the 
gameplay and like this is kind 

755
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,000
of your overview. 
Sometimes I include like an 

756
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,520
image of like what it looks like
for setup or like what a hand or

757
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,000
a card or whatever, like kind of
like some mocked up rules. 

758
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,320
But typically it's just like a 
few different concept 

759
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,800
paragraphs. 
On average I do like 5 and then 

760
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:54,920
we kind of talk through like 
what are the ideas or what are 

761
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,240
the pieces they like of those 
things. 

762
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,720
But really what I'm pulling from
is kind of like a toolbox of 

763
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:04,840
games I played before that kind 
of fit that theme. 

764
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,880
And so like, for example, I'll 
give 2 examples. 

765
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,880
So one was this game called 
Clockle that I worked on when I 

766
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,440
was at GPII was with Big G 
Creative. 

767
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,040
Basically at a Chinese 
warehouse, they have this rubber

768
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,200
chicken that could shoot 
something out of its butt. 

769
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,040
And so they're like, we would 
like the spelling kids game, 

770
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,840
this piece. 
And I'm like, let's go. 

771
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,120
All right. 
So I was like. 

772
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:32,720
What can come out of a chicken's
butt? 

773
00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:36,280
Let's make it a die so it's like
AD 20 and so you have it. 

774
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,800
Yeah. 
And when you're rolling it, the 

775
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,920
number on it is just telling you
how long the word needs to be. 

776
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,960
And the tiles are little eggs 
that you flip over and it's got 

777
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,200
letters. 
And so you're just trying to 

778
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,040
speed build words and stuff. 
So it's like really cute. 

779
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:51,800
So you use the you use the 
chicken. 

780
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,280
Oops, you. 
Erase. 

781
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,480
You build this word and then you
grab the chicken by the neck 

782
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,320
when you build it before 
something else. 

783
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,000
So it's just, it's very cute, 
very simple. 

784
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,480
So that was like, OK, well, I 
have this, this thing, this 

785
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,040
chicken, that she was something 
of his butt. 

786
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:08,640
And they want it to be a 
spelling game. 

787
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,480
I'm very bad at spelling. 
I like designing games for 

788
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,600
things I'm bad at. 
So like it's just I do, I don't 

789
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,880
know, or things that I don't 
like, I like to try to make a 

790
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,840
version of it. 
I do like like I don't like 

791
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,800
trick taking games. 
So I designed a game where you 

792
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,480
pick in the numbers for a trick 
taking game. 

793
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,040
So, yeah, so that was kind of 
fun. 

794
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,120
I was just like, here, let's try
this. 

795
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,000
And I just like, just start 
prototyping that I stole. 

796
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,360
Like, what is the banana 
spelling game? 

797
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:36,720
Oh, Bananagrams. 
Bananagrams. 

798
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:39,320
Yeah, I, I stole a Bananagram. 
And then I just like, was 

799
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,320
playing with those tiles and 
stuff and trying to figure out 

800
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,000
like what felt right. 
And I had this like chicken. 

801
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:45,560
So that's kind of how that came 
about. 

802
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,440
And then there's a different 
game that we got asked to do 

803
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,640
also it was with like Big G, 
they were like, hey, Target 

804
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,680
wants a music party game like to
put in kind of like their 

805
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,720
section where like Cards Against
Humanity and things like that. 

806
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:02,360
So we need to be like a play 
pattern that fits that section 

807
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,640
wanted to be music themed. 
What can you do? 

808
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,960
And I had already had a 
prototype called What's the Vibe

809
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,200
based off a girl I was dating 
'cause she was like a musician 

810
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,200
and she'd always be my like 
copilot when I was driving and 

811
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,320
like DJ and stuff. 
And I'd always ask her what's 

812
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,240
the vibe like for what we're 
gonna play? 

813
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,560
And so my original design, the 
idea was just like what songs 

814
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,600
would populate at the top of the
Spotify list? 

815
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,720
Cuz like if the Spotify list, I 
don't know if you've ever done 

816
00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:33,640
this, but I'll type random 
things into Spotify like like a 

817
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,160
dragon playlist and just see 
what comes up for that. 

818
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,080
So like I'll just do that or 
like on the toilet or like in 

819
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,480
the shower. 
Just like, yeah. 

820
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,400
So it's like. 
I'd already built a game like 

821
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,040
that, but I was like, OK, so we 
don't have the license to 

822
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,560
Spotify, but what's something 
else that more people would 

823
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:51,480
relate to? 
And it's like, well, memories, 

824
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,320
like every, like a lot of songs,
when you hear it, a memory pops 

825
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,520
up. 
So or like in movies, when like 

826
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,200
a memory or just like a piece of
it happens. 

827
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,160
Like there's specific songs. 
They're just so perfect for it. 

828
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,520
Yeah. 
But also song titles make 

829
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,160
excellent answers. 
And so I was like, OK, so that 

830
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,120
time I got crop dusted in the 
elevator. 

831
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:11,640
Push it. 
Don't stand too close to me. 

832
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,880
Like Toxic. 
Like all of these songs work so 

833
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,080
well. 
As answers. 

834
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,400
And I was like. 
Done, we're doing that. 

835
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,880
And because I was coming up with
the product, I was like, all 

836
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,240
right, how do we make this a 
judge voting game? 

837
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:27,720
But everyone gets to be the 
judge. 

838
00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:29,080
So it's like everyone gets a 
guitar pick. 

839
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,560
We all choose at the same time. 
So we're all judging whoever has

840
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,240
the most points points 
essentially. 

841
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:35,880
And so that was kind of like the
idea behind that one. 

842
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,080
So I kind of like repurposed an 
idea I already had for a product

843
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,560
they were looking for. 
Or another time we both like me 

844
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,560
and my Co worker both pitched 
our two separate games and they 

845
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,000
were like could you combine 
these? 

846
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,360
And so it ended up just. 
Becoming a. 

847
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,440
Conversation game that was kind 
of like left, right, center and 

848
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,440
it's called no filter. 
And that was my first game ever 

849
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,000
out. 
And it was just like here's two 

850
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,720
questions. 
Roll 2 dice, play it to the left

851
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:01,760
or the right or all of us or 
just you are gonna answer and 

852
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:03,920
it's either the top or bottom 
depending on what the dice says.

853
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,280
So it's like it's just question 
asking gamified but there's no 

854
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,400
winner. 
And so it was like, OK, so 

855
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,400
there's different ways to do it 
where they'll be like, here's 

856
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,080
the assignment, can you do it? 
And it's cool 'cause if you ever

857
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,320
designed games for like IPS or 
like intellectual properties, 

858
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:20,680
that's basically what you're 
doing. 

859
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,160
Like the eBay game that I like 
pitched to eBay, I was like, 

860
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:24,640
what do you think about making a
game? 

861
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,440
And then they're like, yes, give
us some concepts. 

862
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,320
And the concept they picked was 
how to actually gamify how to 

863
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,120
use eBay. 
And it was just like, OK, well, 

864
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:34,800
how do you use eBay? 
And let's figure out what 

865
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,800
mechanics work for that. 
It's like hitting works, sack 

866
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,200
collection works and selling and
buying and just like things like

867
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:42,480
that. 
So it's like kind of this cool 

868
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,160
thing of like, how do you fit 
mechanics with feelings? 

869
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,800
How do you figure out like with 
an IP, what makes sense? 

870
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,760
Cuz like, I don't know if you're
doing like an Avatar the Last 

871
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,600
Airbender game, probably not 
gonna do like a bidding game. 

872
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,640
Cuz like, how often did you see 
them touch money or like sell 

873
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:01,400
things? 
So it's just like. 

874
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,800
Trying to find in the back of 
your brain this like toolbox of 

875
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,560
mechanics and games you played 
before that you can kind of take

876
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,600
inspiration from. 
So it's kind of different in 

877
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,200
that way where when you're 
inspired randomly to make a 

878
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,400
game, maybe it's from playing a 
different game, maybe it's from 

879
00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:18,880
seeing random signs on your 
vacation. 

880
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,280
I don't know. 
It's it comes differently every 

881
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:22,520
time. 
So I feel like there's different

882
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,240
types of ways to create sure 
and. 

883
00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:29,240
That's that's so insightful. 
Like that's that's great. 

884
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,040
Like I said before, I'm learning
so much this interview. 

885
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,240
So thank you these questions 
they're. 

886
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,200
So fun for because I wish 
someone had told me these things

887
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,840
so I didn't myself. 
Yeah, I. 

888
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:46,600
Really enjoy, I really enjoy 
caution signs where you have the

889
00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:50,040
the board to double sided. 
So it's like the American yellow

890
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,000
and black are the European red 
and white. 

891
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,440
That was something that Gareth 
and I had talked about. 

892
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,800
It's like, so no matter where 
you are, you can recognize that 

893
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,840
that was a brilliant design. 
Where can our listeners who 

894
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,920
don't already have a copy, where
can they get a copy of caution 

895
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,600
signs? 
I would probably say just go to 

896
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,840
thewisewizardgames.com like page
and then click on wacky wizard 

897
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,320
and then click caution signs. 
Or I think it might be slash 

898
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,440
caution signs, but that's 
probably the best place because 

899
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,440
there it'll link to either 
Amazon if Amazon has it, but 

900
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,440
apparently they had to reorder 
and then yeah, I'm not mad about

901
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,920
that. 
I'm no talking about this, yeah,

902
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,600
or like through our website, but
we also are going to be at some 

903
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,080
conventions. 
So we'll be at Essen, we will be

904
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,840
at Paxson Plug this year and 
then next year we're at PAX 

905
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:43,680
East, Origins, Gen. 
Con, UK Games Expo. 

906
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:50,080
And I think that's everything. 
Yes, maybe that is. 

907
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,200
Great, but it's quite a few. 
Different places. 

908
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,440
That's awesome. 
That is fantastic. 

909
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:59,120
So where can anyone who doesn't 
already follow you, where can 

910
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,800
they follow you on your social 
platforms? 

911
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,600
So. 
I'm under token gamer and that's

912
00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:12,080
T OK EN and then gamer like GAY 
and ER and that's gonna be for 

913
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:17,160
Instagram, Twitter or X blue sky
and then I have a website 

914
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:21,160
itsdmarcreativegroup.com. 
But like honestly, I should 

915
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,000
probably update that again 
'cause I do have some more games

916
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:28,360
coming and I have not updated it
yet so oops my bad. 

917
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,240
I'll definitely say the. 
Media is probably. 

918
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:32,520
Better. 
Excellent SO. 

919
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,880
There it is guys. 
Caution signs, you can pick it 

920
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,760
up everywhere. 
So they're gonna be at Essen and

921
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:39,000
all the conventions of next 
year. 

922
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,160
To our British listeners, 
they'll be at UKGE next year. 

923
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,120
We're toying with the idea of 
going. 

924
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,760
We've got all the we've got the 
friends now we just need to get 

925
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,840
there, right. 
So there's a new feature in the 

926
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,560
podcast that recently we've 
started where I would read the 

927
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:01,160
intro from a random board game 
rule book and do kind of voice 

928
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:02,920
over, but I wouldn't tell you 
what it is. 

929
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,680
Our guest would, you know, 
message us and try and give us 

930
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,320
see if they can figure it out. 
Obviously in honor of you and 

931
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,760
your game, we're going to, I'm 
going to do a voice over on the,

932
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,760
I guess you can call it the 
blurb on the back of the box 

933
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:19,760
'cause you don't have one in 
your rule book. 

934
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:24,560
I was disappointed I did this. 
I did this for Amy and Dusty 2 

935
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,560
weeks ago from Duck Somnium when
we talked about botany. 

936
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:33,360
I read from their rule book and 
so Yep. 

937
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,480
Also, for those of you who 
listened to last week's episode,

938
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:42,240
the name of the game that I read
from was House of Cats, which 

939
00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:43,640
was a game that I picked up at 
Gen. 

940
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,240
Con. 
Of cards House of. 

941
00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:46,800
Cats. 
Yeah, of course. 

942
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,480
House of Cats. 
That one was really interesting 

943
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:51,640
because Gareth had no idea what 
I was talking about. 

944
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:55,440
So you'll have to wait to listen
to this episode to find out the 

945
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,280
answer to that one. 
But so here we go with the voice

946
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:02,000
over caution signs. 
This is a fast-paced party game 

947
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,320
about warning your friends of 
hazards they didn't know 

948
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,120
existed. 
Whether you encounter a stylish 

949
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:13,520
rhino, gassy monkeys, or melting
babies, you have only 20 seconds

950
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,800
to sketch a Caution sign to 
signal others to be on the 

951
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:22,320
lookout. 10,000 possible card 
combinations guarantee that no 

952
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,120
two games will be remotely 
alike. 

953
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,600
Caution Signs includes 
everything you need for your 

954
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:31,360
next game night with 200 game 
cards, 8 sketching boards, 8 

955
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,800
markers, a scoreboard and rules 
and two additional cards If you 

956
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,960
were a Gen. on this year, which 
I was. 

957
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:44,200
So that is the voice over for 
Caution Signs. 

958
00:46:45,720 --> 00:46:48,720
I am free to anyone who wants me
to do voice overs for their 

959
00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:52,160
advertising for future projects.
Danielle, if you need some help,

960
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,160
I'm here. 
Thank you once again started 

961
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,720
making me do. 
All our like cool things. 

962
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,280
It's on video. 
Now doing how to play so be 

963
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,160
well. 
If you need to outsource, I'm 

964
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,400
available. 
Good to know. 

965
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:13,160
And I'm free until I can be good
enough to, you know, charge. 

966
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,840
But right now it's all about, 
you know, creating 

967
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,160
opportunities. 
I'm happy to help. 

968
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:18,680
But Danielle, thank you for 
joining. 

969
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,160
Kristen, thank you for helping 
me filling in for Gareth. 

970
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:24,800
Thank you both so much. 
This has been a great 

971
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,840
conversation. 
Thanks for having me. 

972
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:29,480
Yeah, thanks for. 
Having me as well, it's been 

973
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,240
great. 
Thanks everyone for listening, 

974
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,560
please subscribe and as always, 
we'd love to hear your thoughts 

975
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:40,320
and ideas, so make sure to leave
those in the comments and don't 

976
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,320
forget you can also chat with us
both on Instagram at Meeple the 

977
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:44,960
Meeple.