1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,840 Welcome to Meeple to Meeple, uniting players around the 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,640 world. A 30 minute exploration of TJ 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,200 and Gareth's four-game experiences from across both 4 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,480 sides of the Atlantic. Each episode they share their 5 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,440 thoughts and opinions on the world of four games, including 6 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,480 their favorite themes, games, hot topics, and much, much more. 7 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,640 Hey gang, and welcome to episode 99. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,920 We're one episode away from the big 100, if you can believe it. 9 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,640 Today we're going to raise the realm. 10 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:31,000 That's right, you heard me right. 11 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,200 We're going to raise the realm. We're going to talk about a 12 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,400 game. It's called a state Raise the 13 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,520 realm. If you followed us on Instagram, 14 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,760 you've seen some of my posts. If you've heard Gareth and I 15 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,200 talk about it, this is going to be a great episode. 16 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,400 And as always, I remain PJ. And I am still Gareth. 17 00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:50,680 One week I'm going to change and just be somebody else, surprise 18 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,240 or I just got on holiday again and then it'd be somebody else 19 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,000 in my place. That's how it works I. 20 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,560 Expected you to be someone else when you got back from holiday 21 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:58,960 and you didn't. But so that was. 22 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,080 Still me, fortunately. So there we are. 23 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,440 That's OK. So we are fortunate enough to 24 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:09,000 have with us Catherine Hawn from Grodd Games, one of the 25 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,080 designers, Co designers of the game Estate Rays the Realm. 26 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,080 Catherine, how are you? I'm doing fantastic getting 27 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,680 ready for our big launch day coming up in just over two 28 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,200 weeks. So hanging in there, but super 29 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,200 excited to be on and to talk to you both. 30 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:26,880 And yeah, tell folks about the game. 31 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,800 The game's really come a long way. 32 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,960 So how I first was introduced to a state was just this past 33 00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:37,840 summer at Origins. You and Devin were there. 34 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,040 We were talking just before the recording is that I have not met 35 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:42,440 you. I have. 36 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,680 I met Devin at Origins and I let him know, hey, we got this 37 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,080 podcast, we're really interested. 38 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,720 My wife was with me and we were really impressed by the game. 39 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,960 You sent us a prototype copy. You were gracious enough to stay 40 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,680 in constant communication and field questions as we went 41 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,480 along, which was pretty great. And here we are, we've finally 42 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:05,880 made it. You're 2 weeks out from the 43 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,400 launch, right? Yep, big day is October 15th and 44 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,240 yeah, I'm sad to have missed you Origins, but Origins was super 45 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,960 busy. I was our first big con and we 46 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,360 were very excited to talk to so many people about the game and 47 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:22,560 have everyone so interested. And so it's 15th of October on 48 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,160 Kickstarter. How long ago did the design 49 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,200 process start? Just over four years ago. 50 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,960 Okay, so it was a little pandemic project. 51 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,040 Is that how it started? We found ourselves at home like 52 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:40,000 many people and had gone through our collection of games and 53 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:44,560 started ideating on like, what do we love about certain games? 54 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:49,040 And you know, Devin had always had this idea of creating a game 55 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,120 himself. And I got on the bandwagon and 56 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,920 the first version of a state looked very, very different, had 57 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,880 a plethora of mechanics that aren't in the game today, some 58 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:03,800 territory control kind of stuff that, you know, we love. 59 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,600 We love games like Scythe, but we kind of pulled that back a 60 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,960 bit because our vision was to really make a game that had an 61 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,840 immersive back story and and players can really get immersed 62 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:17,400 in, but was kind of an intro game or gateway game for Euro 63 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,080 style games for players. So it has those core mechanics 64 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,520 like resource management, worker placement, and kind of like the 65 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,360 strategy and tableau building of like how do you optimize your 66 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,280 build? But we tried to make it lighter 67 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,320 so that, you know, some folks who maybe have never done a Euro 68 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,640 game or have friends who love your games but don't want to 69 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,400 spend the three to four hours playing it can can really get it 70 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,240 on the table and have a good time. 71 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,160 But it's kind of short and sweet. 72 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,160 So it's about 20 to 25 minutes per player. 73 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,080 Yeah, I certainly found that for the prototype you sent us, which 74 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,360 was it is quick to table, quick to set up and quick to play. 75 00:03:54,080 --> 00:04:00,000 So so for those listening, what is the style a game, What's the 76 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,520 theme and how does it play? Yeah. 77 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,480 So thematically, a state raised the realm is a worker placement 78 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:10,000 tableau building game. And thematically, in the world 79 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,640 of a state, a Great War has just ended and you're taking on the 80 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,240 role of one of our noble leaders who's been given an estate to 81 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,399 rebuild from the ground up. You start off with a couple 82 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:22,280 cards in play already per leader. 83 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:25,480 Those are all unique as well as four workers that you use 84 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,040 throughout the game to take different worker actions. 85 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,760 Playing cards in your state is that engine of growth aspect. 86 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,600 So as you play more cards, your worker actions are going to 87 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,240 become more powerful. And then the game ends at the 88 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,720 end of Era 5. So it's it's kind of a time 89 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,000 boxed game. You're really trying to maximize 90 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,320 out of state build and each character you play with is is 91 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,160 unique. So each one has a different 92 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,000 tableau track that you're building out. 93 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,400 Each one has a special ability that you get to use once per 94 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,960 era, and we really felt like that was kind of one of those 95 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,120 unique aspects to build into the game of creating it. 96 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,040 So it's it's unique every time you play it. 97 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,040 There's a couple other replayability factors that we 98 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:06,960 can get into later on in the conversation. 99 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,440 But yeah, like we, we felt like we wanted to have it be kind of 100 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,800 like every time you play it is is kind of a new adventure in 101 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,120 the world of a state. I certainly found the the 102 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,840 character, the character cards and how what character borders 103 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:25,440 they are being unique enough that it did feel different every 104 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,360 game I played it. So that was really good. 105 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,240 PJ, what do you think? Yeah, I really enjoy the 106 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:36,040 asymmetrical aspect of the different states that you're 107 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,680 playing. And for the record, so we played 108 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,200 it multiple times at two players, my wife and I, we 109 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,960 played it once at 4:00 and then we played it once at 5:00. 110 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,360 And that's when the resources get really tight and you're 111 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,040 like, I don't have any wood. Well, you know, So yeah, it was 112 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,200 really interesting. I thought it was. 113 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,120 What I found interesting was some of the characters managing 114 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:05,160 the states, the leaders. They're a little sinister in 115 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,120 their back story, right, 'cause it's like this war is over, but 116 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,400 it's not all, you know, roses and feathers there's. 117 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,800 Tell us, tell us a little bit about the different estate 118 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,880 leaders because it's the back story. 119 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:20,440 As you said, it's like after a war. 120 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,040 Yeah, So thematically, again, the war has ended and you're all 121 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,840 trying to rebuild and each leader has a little bit of a 122 00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:31,640 like a tailored way of rebuilding. 123 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,720 So if you take on the Agrarian Lord, for instance, you're going 124 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,000 to start with a form and a quarry in your estate. 125 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,640 And that's definitely an estate where you're trying to build out 126 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,520 your production track and really get that engine going of playing 127 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,280 a bunch of cards that when you take production action, you get 128 00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:47,600 to do a bunch of things with one worker action. 129 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:53,160 Another estate, you know, way you can play is with the Trade 130 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,720 Queen. So the Trade Queen is still also 131 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,600 a production track, but they have a card called the Merchant 132 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,520 and that Merchant actually lets you copy someone else's 133 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,640 production. So that's going to be a little 134 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,280 bit more tailored towards those bigger player games, like four 135 00:07:06,280 --> 00:07:09,080 or five player. And that gets you access to all 136 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,760 the other estates essentially. So you're kind of trading with 137 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:16,760 these other estates in a way. We have another leader that is 138 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,680 the Pious 1, and they are a little bit more of an advanced 139 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,000 player card where you start off with a card called the Place of 140 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,600 Worship and that lets you draw another card, a couple other 141 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,240 cards, and then you play one of those cards immediately. 142 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,120 So that's going to give you a unique start every game you play 143 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,840 with the Pious 1. And that one is a little bit 144 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,880 more of a, you get to draw a bunch of cards because there's 145 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:40,880 special ability lets you draw more cards. 146 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,160 And we have over 50 unique cards in the deck. 147 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:45,680 So there's quite a lot of variety. 148 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,600 And that's part of the game is you want to try to get the rate 149 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,280 cards for your player. And so the Pious 1's going to be 150 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,640 1 where you know, you're going to be able to see a lot more 151 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,080 cards than other players and be able to maybe play some of those 152 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,920 more powerful, higher VP value cards. 153 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,560 The asymmetry. You had mentioned Scythe 154 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:07,840 earlier, which is known for its asymmetrical play style, but is 155 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:13,840 the concept of asymmetry, is that a or was that a key tenant 156 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,840 of your game design overall? Or can you tell us a little bit 157 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,120 more about the design? Yeah, that definitely was a key 158 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,160 tenant for us. We love playing games again and 159 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,480 again, like some of our favorites are Agricola, 160 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,200 Everdell, Wingspan, etcetera. But I think what scratches that 161 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,799 edge with Scythe is that like it does have that asymmetric aspect 162 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:36,200 of, you know, you have a lot of variety. 163 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,600 Like every time you play, like sure, in Evendale, like based on 164 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,760 the cards you get drawn, like it changes a little bit, but you 165 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,480 kind of like know like the track you want to try to do 166 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,640 potentially there. We wanted to build a game that 167 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,280 had a lot of that replayability factor. 168 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,280 So like with six different leaders and we might have some 169 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,720 more depending on how well, how well the stretch goes, stretch 170 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,240 goals. But with those different leaders 171 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,520 you can play with, that's going to be the different game every 172 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,440 time you play it. Plus there's things called era 173 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:11,040 events in the game, which an era is around in a state, and each 174 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,960 era we reveal a different event. There's positive and negative 175 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,600 ones and they all sort of introduce an objective which 176 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,480 gets you VP if you win those. And there's 10 right now. 177 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,520 And those are all variable in terms of the game setup. 178 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,720 So again, like you might be a leader that does a great 179 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,000 production track, but if you get the error event that decreases 180 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,680 production for everyone like that might really mess you up 181 00:09:32,680 --> 00:09:34,800 and you might have to try to take a different route with with 182 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,720 your game that time. I certainly enjoyed the errors 183 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:39,880 in terms of those because I think it's three good and two 184 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:40,880 bad. That's the right mix. 185 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,240 I think it's those first two rounds, if they come out in the 186 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,000 wrong order, it can all he gets really tough. 187 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,040 So yes, he's never quite sure you know whether you're going to 188 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,320 be screwed over or not. So there they worked really 189 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,400 well. The other thing I really enjoyed 190 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,400 was on the cards you've got your production icon and moving, 191 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,480 moving your marker across the tracks, trying to make sure I 192 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,240 guess you build up the optimal player board, I guess. 193 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,000 So that worked really well as well. 194 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,560 Yeah, for those, each estate has a different or yeah, we have 195 00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:13,160 three different tracks in each estate. 196 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,400 So production draw cards or the noble track and then the 197 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,400 progress track, which gets you access to extra, more powerful 198 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,160 spots on that center game board. And yeah, my favorite, one of my 199 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,480 favorite mechanics is like when you play a card, you add a cube 200 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,800 to those tracks and just seeing the tracks get bigger and bigger 201 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,040 is is just like a fun tactical thing as a player that I like. 202 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,680 Was that an early design feature? 203 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:37,960 Which bits have been in the game the longest? 204 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,720 The cards themselves, I would say in the characters, OK, those 205 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,360 were something that we kind of had a really big design session 206 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:50,920 in winter 2022. My partner and I, Devin, we 207 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,440 actually got on a road trip that year and spent like the month in 208 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,120 Maine and thought we'd do all these outdoor activities, but it 209 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:56,840 was. Really cool. 210 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,920 Stayed inside, yeah. So we stayed inside, we just 211 00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:01,840 hashed out all the different cards. 212 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,240 And so yeah, I think the cards themselves, obviously we've been 213 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,120 tweaking them, you know, making sure that they're not too 214 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,360 powerful and really balanced. But I think that the mechanic of 215 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,040 the player mats is one of the more like unique newer pieces of 216 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,640 the game. So we were actually at a 217 00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:22,160 convention in Long Island called Long Island Tabletop, really 218 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,040 great, like smaller convention in that area. 219 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,840 And they have an kind of unpublished room or like, you 220 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:29,840 know, play testing area. And we had brought a copy of the 221 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,920 game. And at that point the player 222 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,920 mats had actually been a little bit more like the wingspan size. 223 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,760 So like bigger boards where you could like sure, a spot for each 224 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,480 card to put out, right? The tables in the playtest room 225 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,200 were super small. So we had to quickly pivot and 226 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,000 decide how are we going to actually like get the game on 227 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:50,760 the table. And that's actually, you know, I 228 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,520 find, like, the best innovations come from constraints. 229 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,160 And that's when we decided, oh, OK, like maybe we actually have 230 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,840 a track or an indicator for how many cards you've played for 231 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,200 each category instead of the cards themselves. 232 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,160 And that's kind of what led to the current version of OK, you 233 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,480 know, you play a card and you add a cube to a section to 234 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,880 indicate it. That is much better you've 235 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,120 that's a good. Change. 236 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,800 How you mentioned design testing, how much, how many 237 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,240 processes has it been through in terms of play testing? 238 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,040 Is it local groups or have you tested it everywhere? 239 00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:27,280 We definitely have done it like locally with friends, family and 240 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,240 then a big Ave. we've taken advantage of and utilized is the 241 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,360 unpub rooms at conventions. So big shout out to that group. 242 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,720 That's fantastic opportunity to have just a plethora of players 243 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:40,960 available willing to play test your game. 244 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,680 You know, the best feedback comes from people like, you 245 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:47,480 know, live humans and people. And so we've been in the Unpub 246 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,280 room at PAX Unplugged, which is our kind of local convention 247 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:51,600 dev. And I grew up in the New Jersey 248 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:52,920 area. So we've been there for many, 249 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,520 many years. It's been there for like 4 or 250 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,480 five years in Unpub room. And then this year we've kind of 251 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,160 expanded our convention network going to Unpub Prime actually 252 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,840 has like a, or Unpub has a specific convention for 253 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,680 unpublished games called Unpub Prime. 254 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,160 Lots of great feedback this past spring from them there. 255 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,080 And then we were at Origins with the booth and lots of feedback 256 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,160 still from players. That's actually where we got 257 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,120 some of the questions about player count. 258 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,040 So before Origins we had been a two to four player game and one 259 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,080 of the number one questions we kept getting was like, hey, does 260 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,640 it play up to five or could it play up to five? 261 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,640 And also, is there a solo mode? Because a lot of players like 262 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,000 that solar mode. So we did work on expanding the 263 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,720 game and the solo mode rules will be published pretty soon. 264 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,920 We've been working hard on that. And then Origins was great to 265 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,600 have a couple groups play five players and we've been doing a 266 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,280 bunch of five players since then and it's been working really 267 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,400 well so. You and I had some conversations 268 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,160 around that when I first got a copy of your prototype sent to 269 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,480 me. And you had recommended that we 270 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,640 use just 1/5 colored cubes that we had lying around. 271 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:09,440 So my wife, she grabbed we had an extra cubes and markers from 272 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,360 Dinosaur Island or Dinosaur World. 273 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,360 So her workers were not meatballs, but they were in fact 274 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,760 dinosaurs. So yeah, so that was that was 275 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,760 pretty fantastic. And she enjoyed that. 276 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:26,200 One of the things that stood out was the art. 277 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,960 The art really is amazing. My wife really commented about 278 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,400 how just it was so rich. Can you tell us a little bit 279 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,000 about who the artist was, what your inspiration behind the art 280 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,200 was, and talk about that? Yeah. 281 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,360 So I, I, the art itself in the current prototype actually that 282 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,680 you got PJ and Gareth is still our prototype art, which we did 283 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,560 use an AI art generator on. We totally use it as a tool. 284 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,320 And I actually listened to your recent podcasts with, I forget 285 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,080 who that guest was, but that really resonated with kind of 286 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,160 how we thought about it. We're a first time publisher. 287 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,680 We didn't, we don't have a lot of funds to put into the 288 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:06,440 prototyping process. And so we did spend, I was the 289 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,120 one who did all prompt engineering on that. 290 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,800 So did spend a lot to try to get like the vibe of how we want the 291 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,560 game to look. But then this past June, we 292 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,520 actually found an artist. His name is James Owen and we've 293 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,160 just recently published some of the art on our Instagram. 294 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,560 And our Kickstarter story will have all of like the final art 295 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,960 from him as well for like the a portion of the art that we were 296 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,720 able to do with him. And then part of the funds from 297 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,120 the game, like from Kickstarter will be used to fund like, you 298 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:35,720 know, having him finalize the art. 299 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,880 But he's been fantastic. And you know, some of the stuff 300 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,160 with the AI is, you know, you can get some vibes and 301 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:43,720 everything of like how you want it to look. 302 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,360 But some of those details, like if you look at some like, you 303 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,440 notice some of this looks kind of weird. 304 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,600 And James has been great about helping us also pull in some 305 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,240 more historical context of like we have a plague card and he 306 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,200 helped us pull in like, like, just like aspects of how do they 307 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,040 actually wrap the dead bodies in the play in the cart? 308 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,000 So I he's been great to work with. 309 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,280 And I do want to kind of call that out that like the current 310 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,800 prototype, we did use AI. We'll have a disclaimer in our 311 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,680 Kickstarter, but you know, it was a tool in our toolkit as 312 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,920 first time publishers to help us get a game that excites people 313 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,240 and and want to be interested in it. 314 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,040 I mean, that really compliments the conversation we had. 315 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,840 Was it last week? No, two weeks, 2 weeks ago. 316 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:28,000 Two episodes ago, because now you say it there, there was 317 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,800 something about the colours I hadn't couldn't quite work out. 318 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,240 But it's the AI element. We were saying that before, that 319 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,360 it's that look and feel, but I hadn't, I hadn't clicked. 320 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,560 So yeah, it's really good. Do you want to call out our 321 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,840 designer? Her name is Maria and her firm 322 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,360 merit has been awesome as well. It's their first time doing a 323 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,520 game, but they're fantastic and she's the one who helped us with 324 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,120 the whole like card template itself and like the player mats 325 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,480 and the branding for the game. So big kudos and shout out to 326 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,280 her and her team. Is anything else to do? 327 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,760 I mean, is it finished? Are you happy with where it's 328 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,920 got, or is any tweaking that anyone's going to do? 329 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,480 We're very happy with where it's at, OK? 330 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,920 It's never done right. No, it's never done. 331 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:12,800 Yeah. Yeah. 332 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,119 I would say if I had to put a percent on it, we're like 90% 333 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,400 there. I think that we're still kind of 334 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,440 playing with some of those expansion stretch goal items. 335 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,119 So we have an interactive deck that'll be coming out as a 336 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:27,920 stretch goal, which is extra cards to add in and then helps 337 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:29,600 players interact more with each other. 338 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,440 So things like you produce on a card and it triggers someone 339 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,920 elses production card. So just things like that, that 340 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,360 like some people love games that have more of that player 341 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,840 interactivity, right. And then like, I think really 342 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,120 the the, the player mats or like the leaders and like the core 343 00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:49,080 cards, those are, are very, very done. 344 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,520 Like we're still working on some wording on some, but you know, 345 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,080 the mechanics of how they operate and everything is pretty 346 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,600 locked in. What about the castle? 347 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,480 Yeah. Talk about the castle and where 348 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,720 are you in that? Is that finalized as well? 349 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,440 Because that's an impressive piece of the game that we 350 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,080 haven't even talked about yet. Yeah. 351 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,400 So to let folks know what that is, the castle's a 3D castle 352 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,200 tower that we have with the game. 353 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,640 If everyone's played Eberdell, it's it's very similar to that 354 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,840 kind of element of giving it a little bit more table presents. 355 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,560 And what the purpose of the castle is, it's really to store 356 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,880 your extra workers. So everyone starts off with 357 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,920 four, but you can expand your estate to five to six workers. 358 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,760 So those extra ones hang out there on the top of the castle. 359 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,240 And then it also stores the deck underneath. 360 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,800 And so the prototype copy that you both played with was we we 361 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,720 actually, that was the first time like we had printed to like 362 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:47,480 a real castle. Like we'd had some like 363 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,840 cardboard ones we'd made. But a couple of things that we 364 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,800 learned is that it needs to be a little bit bigger underneath the 365 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,600 arch because I'm you guys probably had this with the deck 366 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:58,080 barely fits. Yeah, yeah. 367 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,960 And we also want to make sure that, you know, if people sleep 368 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,800 their cards, it can fit underneath there too. 369 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,040 So we'll be making that a little bit, you know, bigger of an arch 370 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:07,840 thing. And then we're thinking about 371 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,280 adding maybe like an estate brand on the top of the castle 372 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,880 just to kind of give it some more thematic game, you know, 373 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,360 branding. Very cool, very cool. 374 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,080 And that will be in both copies, both base and deluxe. 375 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,960 That's one of those things where we didn't want to like just gate 376 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,200 it, you know, So it will be in the standard game as well, just. 377 00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:27,840 To say. What's the difference between 378 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,080 standard and deluxe? Yeah. 379 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,520 So again, we really felt strongly that the game should be 380 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,200 very similar, like it shouldn't be that like the deluxe has all 381 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,080 these extra pells and whistles. So like all the cards will 382 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,120 really be the same. The player mats and leaders will 383 00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:43,080 be the same. The biggest differences are 384 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,640 going to be upgraded components. So you're going to have wooden 385 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,440 resources instead of like the cardboard ones, metal coins, 386 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,040 which are my favorite games. And then our meeples are going 387 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,240 to actually be a unique shape per liter. 388 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,720 So they're going to be like a little bit more custom shape. 389 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,920 We're going to have a screen print on the first player token. 390 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,840 And then there will be 1 exclusive component which is. 391 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,400 It's called the Ancient Ruin Deck, and so that is a unique 392 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,560 worker action spot for a state. It'll be a card, and you as a 393 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,960 player can choose to unruin it to gain access to that worker 394 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:19,720 spot in the. Future cool and. 395 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,520 That will. Be exclusive to Deluxe so you 396 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:23,880 won't be able to get it any other way. 397 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,520 OK. I like that. 398 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,600 One of the things that we were wondering about is would one of 399 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,520 the leaders of the factions have access to an additional worker? 400 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,760 You said that you start with four, you can hire two more for 401 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,360 six. But is there a possibility that 402 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,480 a faction that you've already created or you're thinking about 403 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,360 creating would give you an access to say a 7th or just a 404 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,720 temporary one that you know what I'm saying, to give you an extra 405 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,040 worker? Not that we've thought through 406 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,280 on that side. Like part of what to keep the 407 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,000 game tight is we wanted to kind of keep the number of actions 408 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:07,120 you can do constrained as well as, you know, the game ends at 409 00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:10,960 the end of era 5. But I, you know, players have 410 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,960 always been like, oh, I wish there was one more So, but 411 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:16,120 that's. What you want though, isn't it? 412 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:17,080 You want to. Oh. 413 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:18,720 There's one more leaf. Yeah. 414 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,480 So, yeah, I mean, we've talked about maybe there could be like 415 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,800 a variant where you play a six there, you know, if you want to 416 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,600 have a longer game or something like that. 417 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,000 But, you know, keeping it constrained to the workers was 418 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,480 part of our game design. And what? 419 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,680 What's been have all of the all the process from designing it 420 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,320 through to I guess you're launching, what's been your 421 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,120 favorite part of the process? My favorite part has been just 422 00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:44,520 playing with with different people and seeing how everyone's 423 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,200 brains work differently. So you know, like I'm obviously 424 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,920 in the weeds with everything on like what the cards do, but 425 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,360 someone you know, might have an idea for making like a slight 426 00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:56,720 tweak to make things better. And like, it's just the 427 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,680 collaborative process. Like, yes, I'm one of the core 428 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,000 designers, but everyone who's play tested the game is, has 429 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,480 been a part of the design process. 430 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,760 And I just think that like that piece has been really cool. 431 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,400 It's, it's just hearing people's feedback and, and you know, ways 432 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,360 to improve the game to make it better and better. 433 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,880 Has there been any memorable like Eureka moments or that's 434 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,480 such a good idea that stood out from a design change? 435 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,840 I would say someone, and we haven't incorporated this into 436 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,720 design just yet, but it will be in the final copy is on the air 437 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,400 events making the positive and negative stand out more. 438 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,800 So we're going to change the banners on those cards to be 439 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,000 like red for negative and you know, like a more positive color 440 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,920 just because it's like if when you're around the table and 441 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,320 you're looking, when you flip it over, like that immediate 442 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,600 reaction of knowing, oh, this is a positive positive one or oh, 443 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,880 this is a -1 that's a great. One and is there any thoughts on 444 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,920 expansions or is that too far away? 445 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:56,200 Is there enough content you've already created that in the 446 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,560 distant future or did near distant future? 447 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,280 Yeah. So we actually maybe have a 448 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,040 more, I don't know if it's unique, but like our opinion 449 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,600 about expansion games is we like them, but we kind of like having 450 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,840 set games. And so as a publishing company, 451 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,640 what we're, our vision is, is that we're going to build a 452 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,440 trilogy of games in this universe. 453 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,880 So. Unique standalone games, but 454 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,760 still within the universe of a state. 455 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,080 So really the game that we're bringing into market right now 456 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,360 is going to be Game 1. And so that'll be this worker 457 00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:31,760 placement engine building game. And I kind of has those vibes of 458 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,960 Everdale, Riccola, Wingspan. Game 2, if we make it that far, 459 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:41,400 is going to be a little bit more akin to if you guys played Seven 460 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,760 Wonders where like everyone's going at the same time. 461 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,280 So still kind of like that you're playing as one of our 462 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,440 core leaders, but everyone gets to play their action at the same 463 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,360 time. And instead of you choosing one 464 00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:56,240 of those four worker actions, there's going to be the game is 465 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,560 like telling you. So it's like, OK, everyone gets 466 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,720 to produce this round and like you do that action. 467 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,920 And that's still very much in game designer infancy, but 468 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,240 that's Game 2. And then Game 3 is going to be 469 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:13,120 like like a building an adventure on the game board. 470 00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:17,800 It's kind of like house on how to tell arbitrary on where like 471 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,360 tiles get flipped over. And that one is Game 3 for a 472 00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:23,360 reason because it's going to be a little bit more complex. 473 00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:26,000 But we think that like, still it would fit nicely in the 474 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,640 narrative of like the universe of a state and the characters we 475 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,840 felt. And then Devin does have an eye, 476 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,680 like he wants to kind of write a book about that back story of a 477 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,480 state of like everything there. So he's been working on that on 478 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,800 the side. And yeah, more to come on that. 479 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:44,120 One. Yeah, Amazing. 480 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,120 I'm really interested in the war that's that like the story of 481 00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:50,600 the war that leads us to a state, right? 482 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,480 Like that's really interesting. So you've mentioned a lot of 483 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:59,200 different game titles that share some mechanics similar to A 484 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,760 State. I was wondering though, in to 485 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,880 your mind, what sets A State apart from all of these other 486 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,240 titles that we've previously mentioned? 487 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,600 Yeah, I think the the speed of play is a little bit unique to 488 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,680 us. As I mentioned at the top, it's 489 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,360 it's about 20 minutes per player. 490 00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:20,520 And if you get a group that already knows the game and the 491 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,400 cards like we've knocked out games in about 15 minutes per 492 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,680 player. And I think the fact that you 493 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:32,000 are you have all these cards and like you have a lot of variety 494 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,240 and like it's it's a resource plenty game. 495 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,120 Like I know you mentioned the five player, you get a little 496 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:39,120 tight, but yeah, we tried to design it like I don't know if 497 00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:41,880 you've ever played Agricola where like you have these plans 498 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,320 and you're going to build your house and expand it and someone 499 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,600 takes the read, you're totally messed up. 500 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,600 Until the next time. And you got to get to read, 501 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,240 right? So like that is just very 502 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,440 antagonistic between players. We wanted to build a game that 503 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,040 still had a lot of that strategy and like, OK, you get all these 504 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,200 cards and you have like the end game you're going for, but you 505 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,440 always have a way to get to do what you want to do. 506 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,240 So like there's a way to dump cards to get resources and 507 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:07,960 that's open. Anyone can take it. 508 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,840 You know, once you build up your engine in your state, you're 509 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,160 really going to be able to get resources in different ways. 510 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,720 And so, yeah, I think that maybe is what I would consider to be a 511 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,040 unique piece for our game is like the speed of gameplay. 512 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,760 And then the fact that like you're really trying to, it's a 513 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,800 Maximus game, you're trying to build the biggest, best estate 514 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,680 and there's not going to be too many constraints outside of like 515 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,080 cards maybe that you haven't drawn yet. 516 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,920 I mean, there's plenty of variability in the cards and I 517 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,240 would agree the speed is is key. I think that that does make it 518 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,840 very accessible to the table in terms of getting a quick game in 519 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,800 that doesn't, you know, take all night, but still gives you that 520 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,640 worker placement card tableau building experience. 521 00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:53,400 Yeah. I also thought it was 522 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,440 interesting. So you've got the the you've got 523 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,680 to have 21 cards in front of you, 7 of each. 524 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,880 I can't remember what you call that, but if you have, if you 525 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:09,320 play an extra card, you have to replace with one that's there. 526 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,920 So it's not like your tableau is finite. 527 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,680 You can, you can keep building. And I think if I'm not mistaken, 528 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,920 there's rewards if you exceed 7 cards on each of the three 529 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:24,200 tracks. Is that, is that correct 530 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:24,720 Catherine? Is it? 531 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,680 Am I remembering that right? Yep. 532 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,800 So there's out of the, there's like three types of cards and if 533 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,760 you maximize one of those tracks up to 7, you get 7 extra points. 534 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:38,120 So it's trying to give players a reward for getting to that kind 535 00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:40,680 of fully built engine for each of those rows. 536 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,120 Most players will get to 1. You know, some, some players get 537 00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:46,880 to two. We've yet to see a player get 538 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,680 all the way OK including us. Challenge accepted. 539 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:52,880 Yeah. Is it possible? 540 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,720 It can it be done, but it's. I think you have to get, yeah, 541 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,480 like the perfect amount of like cards that chain off to, because 542 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,400 ultimately you have a set number of worker actions and like you, 543 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,560 yeah, you have to use one worker to play one card. 544 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,000 And like if you play another card, like some cards let you 545 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:10,720 play other cards. And I think you'd have to do 546 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,720 that like play a necromancer to play a sorcerer to draw more 547 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,480 cards and play one of those to maybe play it. 548 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,360 Well, you know, I've gotten some of those where you chain 3 cards 549 00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:22,720 through with one worker action. But I think you'd have to really 550 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,320 have the perfect build there. I don't think we've talked about 551 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,000 the four actions, have we? Could you cover the four? 552 00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:32,080 There's four actions on your player board, which you can do. 553 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,760 Do you want to talk through those unique actions? 554 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,160 Yeah. So there's four basic actions 555 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,960 you can take. You can play a card from your 556 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,840 hand and you do that just by paying those resource costs. 557 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,640 And you when you do that, you add a cube to your track, you 558 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,560 can draw new cards. So there's a market that's face 559 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,200 up that you can draw from or you can obviously draw from the top 560 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,000 of the deck. There's a center game board. 561 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,520 So you can one action is like taken action from the center 562 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,960 game board. So that's kind of like a one to 563 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:03,040 many action spot. But those are like, you know, 564 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,080 getting resources. You know, sometimes there's like 565 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,280 a, you know, progress extra special spot that's like, oh, 566 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,720 like you can play a card from the market with two less 567 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,760 resources, those kind of things. And then the last action is to 568 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,400 produce on cards. So not every card in your estate 569 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,680 is a production card, but the ones that are like when you take 570 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,600 that production action, you could then activate those cards. 571 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,320 And production cards can be simple, like a farm just gets 572 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,920 you the grain. They can also be a little more 573 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,520 complex, like an assassin let's your dungeon or tuck another 574 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,120 card from your hand and that's an extra victory point. 575 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,000 And then there's sometimes extra, you know, era event 576 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,240 objectives that are like number of tucked cards, those kind of 577 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,400 things. So there's a lot of variety in 578 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,880 the production, like worker action, spot on what you can do. 579 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,560 So in the progress, progress spaces, the way that they open 580 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,400 up as you progress along the other track, that was a nice 581 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,600 feature that, you know, you're trying to trying to get across 582 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,800 that track to get get access to those, I guess slightly more 583 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,080 powerful spaces. So yeah, there's always a need 584 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,120 for one. See more in terms of those 585 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,960 worker action spaces. Yeah, those were actually some 586 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,320 of the the action spots that we've been tweaking the most 587 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,640 leading up to the to the became finalizing. 588 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,040 Because what we found was actually like originally we 589 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:22,800 didn't make those spots good enough. 590 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,800 So like people wouldn't go for that progress track. 591 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,440 Now I think we found that sweet spot where like the, I think the 592 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,400 4th worker action is typically either you get to dump resources 593 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,000 for gold, which is victory points, like that's huge, or you 594 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,880 get to take two worker actions when you take that spot, which 595 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,280 is also nice. But yeah, originally, like we 596 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,720 just know like that's one of those things where when you like 597 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,680 play with other people who are neutered to the game, you notice 598 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,600 what they're doing and you're like, oh, like, why aren't you 599 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,960 taking these? And they're like, oh, I felt 600 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,320 like my other spots were actually more beneficial. 601 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,840 So we we've been tweaking them. And that is why we play test, 602 00:30:58,840 --> 00:30:59,240 Gary. Yeah. 603 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:05,520 PJ's a big play test, so I'm a less, I'm less, so you'll spend 604 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,920 a lot. So did you play test this PJ 605 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,720 Origins or was it you met Catherine at a stand? 606 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,560 I got so Devin showed me a demo of the game, Yeah. 607 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,720 And immediately I was like, thematically I was like, 608 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,200 Gareth's going to love this game. 609 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,280 And what were you saying about a straight on the episode after 610 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:23,560 Origins? I did, yeah. 611 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,840 And so then I reached out to both Devin and Catherine, and 612 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:28,320 Catherine was the primary contact. 613 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,360 And I was like, I need to get a copy and play this, this, and 614 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,560 sure enough, got me a copy. And yeah, what's. 615 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,080 So what's really funny is that when I was done and you asked me 616 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,840 to ship it on, we shipped it to our good friend Adam. 617 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,240 Guarantee to you OK? Yeah. 618 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,160 So he handed up and he got to play it, so it was just 619 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:47,880 exciting. So there's a shout out to Adam a 620 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:48,680 little bit, too. Yeah. 621 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:49,600 Cool. Pretty. 622 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,440 Yeah. So it's a great game. 623 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,360 Great game. Looking forward to it to hit 624 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,680 Kickstarter. So what's the expected once 625 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,240 you've gone through Kickstarter? When is it? 626 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,120 About a year? How rough? 627 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:03,760 I know it's hard to predict about a year. 628 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,120 It's going to be, our timeline right now is about a year and 629 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:07,960 that's we've done a lot as first time publishers. 630 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,560 It's all new to us, right. But we've done a lot of talking 631 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,520 to other folks and interviewing. And actually I think that was 632 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,480 one of our biggest takeaways from origins too, of like just 633 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,960 being able to meet other people in the fulfilment and and 634 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,720 distribution space. So we've got some good partners 635 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,200 that we've talked to and inform relationships with and 636 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,720 everything that they've said is, you know, you have to budget, 637 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,880 you know, two months to get the freight from from China to the 638 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,280 US And we've got a good understanding of the 639 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,120 manufacturing process with Panda, who's our manufacturing 640 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,800 partner. So really expect it to be about 641 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,840 one year because we after the campaign do need to spend some 642 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,040 time working with James to finalize that game art and get 643 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,280 all the assets done. The Essen Likelihood, 2025. 644 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,440 That would be a dream, but it. Sounds tight in terms. 645 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,320 Of yeah, it's probably a little tight, but we will be at Origins 646 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,720 and I think that's actually going to be when our final like 647 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,280 pledge manager will close. So people will still be able to 648 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,240 potentially buy a copy then. And then we're also going to be 649 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,760 at Gamma for the first time this year with a, with a small booth. 650 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,400 So excited to be part of that organization and yeah, like 651 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,400 meet, meet a lot of folks there. How many, how many copies 652 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:18,760 prototypes do you have out right now? 653 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,280 I know you've, I know you've got at least one in the US because 654 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,960 it was at my table. I know you have one in England 655 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,000 because it was on Gareths table. How many of you have floating 656 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,000 out? How much reach have you had in 657 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,080 your play testing so far? Yeah, we printed 10 copies with 658 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,880 Panda back in. I think it was May or sorry 659 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,760 April that we got those. And then we've kept about 3 660 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,000 copies with us just because we're doing local stuff here in 661 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,040 the Orlando area, going to cons and stuff. 662 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,720 And then the rest are out in the wild as I like to say with with 663 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,240 folks. And so we have a copy in Canada, 664 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,720 copy in the UK. We actually just sent a copy to 665 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,840 Europe to to Germany and had some issues with customs there, 666 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,320 but I think it got got there and then and a couple copies in the 667 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:04,560 US. Cool. 668 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,680 OK. So you've got you've, you've 669 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,679 established quite a bit of reach so far just before launching on 670 00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:11,880 Kickstarter. So that's pretty exciting. 671 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,600 Yeah, we're still again, like new to the process, but a lot of 672 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:21,040 folks that we talked to back in in the early 2024 where they 673 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,560 were like, hey, like try to get your game in the hands of folks 674 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,679 because, you know, that's part of the just collaboration with 675 00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:30,560 everyone is like getting, getting people's opinions. 676 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,560 And and, you know, you can only talk to so many people at a 677 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,480 convention. And so getting the chance to 678 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,560 have it, you know, being out in the mail and, and in the wild 679 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,960 is, is nice. And so Kickstarter is Tuesday, 680 00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:46,360 October the 15th. Yep. 681 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:47,360 What? What time is it? 682 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:48,719 I haven't picked the launch time. 683 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:54,520 Oh, OK. But open his suggestions again. 684 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,719 Like we're, we're kind of still learning everything. 685 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,080 But we do know Tuesdays are very popular. 686 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:00,040 Tuesday. That's what I spent on. 687 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,360 Yeah, yeah. On Tuesday and did take the day 688 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,240 off from my day job to kind of like be manning the Kickstarter 689 00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:09,760 page and and yeah, all hands on deck. 690 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,080 And how much work goes into preparing the Kickstarter page? 691 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,200 How much is that finished or you still got? 692 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,760 Is there still work to do? We got two weeks, 2 weeks to go. 693 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,400 Yeah, it's all, it's a good amount of work and a huge shout 694 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,880 out to, to Maria and Merit and her team because they really 695 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:29,920 helped put the Polish on it, right of, of what it's going to 696 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,840 look like on there. And I actually just spent a 697 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,280 couple hours before we hopped on putting in like the design 698 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,000 assets. And so we will be sharing a 699 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,120 floating link of that like preview of the story campaign 700 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:42,960 with some folks. So I, I'm happy to share it with 701 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,920 you guys after to let to see if you guys have any feedback for 702 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,680 us. But yeah, it's it's pretty 703 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,080 close, about 90% there. Amazing. 704 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,360 Is there anything else PJ you want to cover? 705 00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:56,280 I wanted to, I just wanted to ask about the Kickstarter 706 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,120 launch. So when you set up the time for 707 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,320 the launch, and I apologize if you've already answered this 708 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,560 because I don't know, can you set it for your local time or 709 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,400 can you set it for a different time? 710 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,520 It seems like it would be best to drop, say in the morning in 711 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,680 Europe and then let the time kind of cascade. 712 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,600 Do you have that option? I don't think you do, but that 713 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,280 would be a really cool feature because part of what everything 714 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,840 I've learned and also observed as you know, someone who backs 715 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,000 games is right that momentum right when you launch is really 716 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,160 important. And so we're we're likely going 717 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,240 to do a time that's like East Coast friendly US. 718 00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:36,040 Yes, we are based in the East Coast, but that's an interesting 719 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,760 topic or like thought. So like think about, you know, 720 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:44,200 folks in the EU and Europe time frame like that'll be midday for 721 00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:46,560 you guys. So like will you be focused on 722 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,760 it or would it be better? I mean, maybe you can answer 723 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:49,800 that, Gary. Like what time? 724 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,440 I think it's usually 4:00 or 5:00. 725 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,200 Is it? 11 till 5I seem to think is the 726 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,640 most common and that must be because of the of the US side 727 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:03,200 yeah it's very it's very rare it's our morning it's usually 728 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:08,360 mid afternoon OK usually when my if I'm if I'm following a 729 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:13,200 Kickstarter a ping and then I'm at work and I'll just I know I'm 730 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,680 tracking it so I'll deal with it once I finish work yeah because 731 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,920 I. Feel, I feel like you could, you 732 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,240 could bake in like a first and 2nd wave, right? 733 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,800 If it's in the morning in Europe, in the UK, there's that 734 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,120 first wave and then once it gets to the morning in the US, 735 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,800 there's your second wave. I feel like you could carry 736 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,800 momentum further right, make the time zones work for you. 737 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,640 That's a great suggestion for Kickstarter. 738 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,960 I feel like they've been doing a lot of improvements to the 739 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,080 platform like something that recently that came out was like 740 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,600 the preview page got a lot more detailed. 741 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,320 So like, is it Yeah, when we yeah, when we first put our pre 742 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,800 launch page up in the spring, all you could do is like, you 743 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,400 know, you're 250 character blurb about what the game was in the 744 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,360 picture. Now you can essentially like add 745 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,520 anything you want, like videos and add links and all that. 746 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,680 So that's been huge for us as a, you know, publisher being able 747 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,080 to educate people on what the game is and not have them have 748 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,480 to like find our website and the Kickstarter page. 749 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:15,840 Like everything's on the Kickstarter now. 750 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,080 Because on game found that's been pretty standard. 751 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,320 It has, you've pretty much got the launch page and you're just 752 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,680 waiting for it to go live. So that's yeah, that's a good 753 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:24,640 add on. I have to have a look at that 754 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,200 when when you send a link saver. We've asked this question, or 755 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,320 rather, I've asked this question of previous designers that have 756 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,320 been on the show. Why did you choose Kickstarter 757 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,480 over other crowdfunding platforms that exist? 758 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,000 What was it about Kickstarter that stood out for you? 759 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,760 Yeah, we did some research into this and from everything we 760 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,000 found, like Kickstarter is the go to platform, especially for 761 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,680 first time publishers. They have a lot of organic 762 00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:55,600 audience of you know, people who like to back games, they go to 763 00:38:55,600 --> 00:39:01,080 Kickstarter and it's a common name like even like and I talked 764 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,000 to my broader family members and friends and who aren't getting 765 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,800 born for game people. Like they know what Kickstarter 766 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:11,240 is, they've heard of it. I think that game found and like 767 00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:17,280 backer Kit, like they are more like true core board game back, 768 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,240 you know, like crowdfunding like that like and like if I've also 769 00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:23,160 heard like tabletop role-playing games are like a little bit more 770 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,960 common on maybe game found. So I think it's your audience 771 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,600 and we pick Kickstarter just because again, it's seems like 772 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,800 it'll be the most broad for us and be able to help bring some 773 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,520 organic traffic as well. Cool, cool. 774 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:37,880 OK. Anything else Catherine you'd 775 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,080 like to share apart from the dates 15th October? 776 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,000 Um, I think just a shout out to everyone who's helped us along 777 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,440 the way. Like I think, you know, 778 00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:50,520 obviously talking to folks like you is really huge and helpful 779 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,440 for us to help spread the word. And a lot of the other creators 780 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,720 we've talked to and I'm Pub Network and yeah, it's just a 781 00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:01,520 very collaborative industry. So we're excited to hopefully 782 00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:05,000 start our own foothold of a publishing company here in the 783 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,600 coming weeks. And yeah, we also are trying to 784 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,720 give back and we have a small blog, it's not yet that big on 785 00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:14,200 our website, but just trying to help document like everything 786 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,680 we've learned and try to give back to the community. 787 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,840 So if anyone's listening to this and trying to launch a game, 788 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,840 like I'm all all ears. Maybe a little bit busy the next 789 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,040 month, but. Feel free to reach out if you 790 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,280 have any questions. There's also been a really 791 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,720 fantastic Instagram group we've been a part of that it's just 792 00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:32,600 like a whole bunch of other creators in the same boat as 793 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,480 everyone else trying to launch. That is the thing, isn't it? 794 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,400 About about about, I think a lot of games, even right back to 795 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,720 when Jamie first started with, you know, Stigma Games. 796 00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:44,960 Stigma Games was all of the the collaboration, the amount people 797 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,240 just share and want to help each other out, whether it's content 798 00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:50,760 creators like us or with designers or artists, they're 799 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:52,680 just, it's just a great community. 800 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,320 So it's great to see. Well, yeah, we wish you the best 801 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:01,720 of luck in two weeks time and hope to see Game 3 materialize 802 00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:06,280 in the distant future. OK, well, thank you. 803 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,280 Catherine said we'll wish you best luck on the 15th of 804 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,200 October. And thank you, PJ. 805 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,520 Yeah, thanks again, Catherine, for helping Gareth and I carry 806 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,280 us to the last of the 101st 100 episodes. 807 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,760 It was a it was a lot of. Pressure. 808 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,440 It was a lot of pressure. So should we give a little bit 809 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,720 of a preview of what we've got in store for? 810 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,960 Episode 100. Episode 100, Gareth Yeah, Why 811 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,840 don't you tell our listeners a little bit so they know what to 812 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,920 expect? We have going to have a super 813 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:42,400 special guest and anyone who's been listening to the 199 814 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,280 episodes so far will might have a guess of who that might be 815 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:51,400 based on the common theme. We will be moving to video, so 816 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,240 we have been practicing video for the last three episodes, so 817 00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:58,960 we've got that down to a tee. We've got two other special 818 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,160 guests, one to help us talk about podcasts and what we've 819 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,840 learned on our journey, and another guest who's going to 820 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:10,840 help us look forward to episode 199 and maybe what another 100 821 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,400 episodes of Meeple to Meeple looks like. 822 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:18,000 So it's a kind of retrospective forward-looking episode and 823 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,600 video. And you can find us on YouTube 824 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,560 already, but there's it's the empty channel. 825 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:29,440 But please do go subscribe, like check me out, subscribe and like 826 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,680 to our YouTube channel, which is Meeple to Meeple. 827 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:36,960 Pretty excited about this one. Yeah. 828 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,280 Episode 100, who would have thought? 829 00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:43,920 OK, right. Thank you all for listening. 830 00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:47,320 You'll be viewing next time I talk to you as well as 831 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,440 listening. And thank you, Catherine, again 832 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:50,800 for your time today. He's been brilliant. 833 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:53,600 Awesome. Thanks for having me everyone. 834 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,440 Thanks everyone for listening, please subscribe and as always, 835 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,440 we'd love to hear your thoughts and ideas, so make sure to leave 836 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,600 those in the comments and don't forget you can also chat with us 837 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,360 both on Instagram at Meatball to Meatball.