Hey guys, and welcome to episode 109.
That's right, we are. We are just pushing along almost
to 110 and I'm really excited. As always, I remain PJ and in
this episode 6 titles, two brothers, one night, it's last
night games and with me is Nathan Jenny.
Nathan, how are you? Thanks.
Yeah. No thank.
Thanks for coming on. And I know you're in a comments
room at the office, so, you know, but we'll, we'll try to be
mindful of the time. So I was doing a little
research. I'd reached out.
Well, I guess I should say first I reached out to you and your
brother Jake at, I think it was Gen.
Con a year year ago. And then again, I think I saw
you at Origins or maybe I saw you at Gen.
Con. All the conventions blur
together, I feel like, right. It's just like, I want to, I
want to work with you guys. So you sent me a few games and
we just, we really, we love your products.
We love your, we love your concept.
You've got this amazing story that I want to dive into as
well. But I was, I was.
So why don't you tell us a little bit about you personally,
How did you get into the hobby? Like what was the first modern
board game for you? And a little bit like that like.
I don't know. We've been asked that question
before and tried to think like what, what was the first game?
So my Jake and I, we grew up in a family.
Our family was kind of always had board games and we had, you
know, a bunch of the old ones. You know, we had Scrabble and
Monopoly and then we had, I don't know, I think my parents
must have been into it a little bit because we, our collection
kind of grew over time and you know, we'd get like new things
like skip over phase 10 and stuff.
And we had some old interesting ones.
I don't know if you ever remember there's an old dungeon
game where you had little purple mini figs you'd move around the
dungeon. That kind of sounds familiar.
Yeah, it was, it was an old one. That one was like kind of like
tickling something I think in both of our minds.
And then we had this fun game called Careers, which was a
little more like a marriage trash, but maybe with a little
bit more choice in some of the games.
Anyway, we just kept growing and, and, you know, we went to
college and people had introduced us to even new games
like Dominion and such. And then, yeah, I think, you
know, I think actually Carcassonne was one of the, I
mean, if we're going to talk about what people classically
call their interests, I think I, my wife and I bought Carcassonne
and started playing and enjoyed it a lot.
That's cool. So and I think so.
I think that's the cool thing. I don't know that everyone knows
this about. It's a you and your brother.
You see, you grew up in the hobby.
I think you decided to go into business together and open up a
publishing house and you're publishing games like.
So I I wanna, I really want to dive into that because I'm
interested in what it's like to work with your brother.
So, like, I work with my wife, Right?
Yeah. OK.
So in my job, of course, she's my boss.
You guys are probably partners equals.
Oh, Jake's the boss. OK, so So what is that like, how
do you how do you manage, you know, when disagreements and
leave things at home, you know, not bringing them to work?
Like how does how does that dynamic play out in day-to-day?
Yeah, no, that's a, that's a great question.
So we had like 20 years of practice arguing and fighting.
So and then and then once we became adults, we, we put that
behind us. No.
So yeah, I, I think so. I'm actually the older brother.
I'm three years older than Jake. He's the so you know, obviously
he's the smarter one. I'm the better looking one.
The truth comes out. So, yeah, you know, we, we, we
got along, I think fairly well, although I'm not sure he would
say that growing up. And yeah, interestingly enough,
through a bunch of interesting events, we ended up starting
college the same year and we decided we'd be dorm roommates
for that first year. And I think my parents were
worried that we're going to kill each other.
Sure. But I think I don't know, I
guess both of us just kind of grew up at that moment and we
just kind of saw each other peers and equals.
And since then, I think, you know, most that civil sibling
rivalry has has died, right? But and we were always making up
games, you know, growing up and stuff, you know, nothing complex
or crazy, but you know, we had invent little games, you know,
because we were bored and we grew up before most electronics
and things. So we had like indoor baseball
where we would like roll up socks and roll up towels and
smash them across our room and dive onto the bed and, you know,
we'd do some outdoor games and stuff.
So we had always been like kind of creative and we had the
games. I'm growing up and, you know, I
guess it's been close to 10 years ago.
I guess Jake was just like, we should make a game.
Like let's make a real like a real board game.
We love board games. There's cool board games out
there. We should make a game.
I think that's when we got more serious about it and we sat down
and actually started like thinking what it would be like
and, and, you know, where it would go.
And I don't know, it took us probably six or seven years of
just, you know, messing things up and scrapping ideas and
throwing things away before we really kind of got it enough
together that we could start publishing, right?
And your first title was Life of a Chameleon, right?
Is that right? That is so.
How many, how many? So, OK, so there's I have so
many questions. OK, so how many drafts or
iterations of that game before you came up with the final
product? I don't know we I was I was
reading A blog by another designer a while ago and this I
forget his name, sorry I can't credit.
No, it's OK credit. This person, but they were
talking about, you know, once they hit like 280 or something
revisions, then they were like getting confident that it was a
good game, right? That person must do a really
good job of tracking what they're doing.
I don't think we track necessarily or, or, or maybe
formally recognize what revision.
And you know, going back to your earlier question about how we
make board games, honestly, I think the fact that we're
brothers and that we've known each other for so long, we can
be super honest and open about what's a good idea and what's a
bad idea. And I think, I think we're
constantly telling each other like, no, no, no, that doesn't
work because of this. And instead of being like ego
hits, I think it's a little more like, Oh, no, we're that's
you're right, Like there's something wrong here and we need
to work on it. So a lot, a lot of iterations to
answer the question. And I can't imagine at this
point designing games without Jake.
I think that pushback, right? He gives me helps us iterate a
little faster than maybe I would ever be able to do by my own.
Like I would just be spiraling off and like, you know, La La
Land and he's like, no, this is a dumb idea.
And then, you know, we'll start working on something.
And no, that's not working. And, and honestly, it's, it's
hard to, I think for me to attribute credit back and forth
like. Oh, sure.
Who who did what I I will say Jake came up with the initial
idea for life of one of the thoughts he had had initially is
like, you know, and especially those like older American games
where you you'd pick your color and then March on the board.
He was interested in that concept of of your character,
your pond having a color. And he's like, well, it'd be fun
if that changed colors throughout the game.
Yeah. And that that's what got us
going on like, oh, well, we started thinking about like,
well, why would you change color?
What's the theme? Nice.
Yeah, we came, came to Chameleons.
Cool. So so you Jake's got this idea
of let's it would be cool to change color.
You you go through the process. So now you're you're ready.
You were ready to go. And this might be a witch came
first the chicken or the egg question.
I don't know. Your answer will reveal whether
that is or not. So you're ready to go and you
decide. Now you've got a question.
Do you open your own publishing house and publish it yourself?
Or do you go with a traditional publisher and you went with the
former? Or or did you decide we're going
to create Last Night games and then publish?
Or how did that evolve? Let you know on the secret.
We had a failed Kickstarter like a long time ago in like 16 or
something with, with even an earlier title than the one that
we haven't, yeah, actually published.
We, we had known, I don't know, we'd gone down that route and
run into to failure like like so many people do.
And we, my brother actually has from his job, a lot of
experience with like manufacturing and sourcing and
such. And we just were so new to like
the industry. I mean, we'd played games for a
long time, but we hadn't been around the industry.
We didn't know about like all the great resources, unpubs and
designer groups and different things.
And we didn't know how to, how to do anything.
And I think, I think it was Jake.
He was just like, look, I know how to do this.
Like we, we can do this. I've got experience in it.
And I'm like, oh, well, I don't know.
And you know, and then it was just like, can we afford to do
it? And like, I don't know.
And so I, I'm, I'm the Super conservative 1 and I, I'm just
dragging my feet and I don't know.
And, you know, mulling it over. And then I remember it was like
2021, like shortly before I think Thanksgiving.
Jake's like, he's like, I did it.
I'm like, did it. You did what?
He's like, send our game to print.
Wow. So that's, that's he, he pushed
us, push us for it. And I'm so thankful for it
because right, I'd still be dragging my feet, like, at least
years later. And that that's kind of the
model like I was so I was looking in through your website
in preparation for this episode and every game that you the two
of you designed them all so so. Far.
Yeah. So is that is it because there's
nothing that's coming? Because I'm I'm guessing as a
publisher, designers are just constantly pitching you with
games. Has nothing hit come across your
desk that's been like, yes, we need to publish this.
Or is it a design choice that it's just the two of you or like
what's what's the Yeah. I think that's the first time
I've been asked that question. That's that's a really
interesting question. I think in some ways we're just
not at a level where we're confident that we would serve
the designer as well as we should, if that makes sense.
You know, we're still just a few years into it and they're still
growing. We're still learning and making
mistakes. There's some really great
designers out there. And we do get a lot of people
reaching out to us for pitches and stuff.
And I feel really bad saying like, no, I mean, we, we really
haven't even just entertained the idea at all yet.
And I think it's, it's something we've talked about on occasion.
We, we also, I don't know, fortunately or unfortunately for
us, have like a ton of ideas that we're still also working on
ourselves. I mean, there's a little bit of
selfish aspect I think in it. We, we have, yeah, we have
several more games that we've started working on and some that
are coming down the pipeline and, and are doing, I'm not
going to say that we're not ever going to do that.
But it's it's, I think it's a it's a responsibility, right?
Like when you take on someone, you want to give them, like you
want to give them the best showing that you can.
And right, I think we're still like growing and maybe not
putting putting our image out there.
I mean, we'll have people come up to us at conventions and be
like, I've never heard of you guys, like why you've got all
these games, like what right, what's going on?
And I'm like, I think that's like indicate indicating to me
that maybe that we're, we're not, we're missing a little on
the promotion side of things. And, and yeah, maybe, maybe
we'll get there and, and we'll, we'll feel more confident and
yeah. That's, that's really.
So for me personally, that's interesting to hear because at
least amongst the, the members of the hobby in the community
that I spend most of my time with, I communicate with
everyone's heard of you and yay Panda, Panda Royale, right.
That game just, well, it was wildfire and everyone was like,
oh, are you gonna, you gonna have Nathan and Jake on?
And I'm like, well, we're, we're trying to work something out.
You know, people are really excited about that.
And so, yeah, I guess I've got a surprise that people don't know
you. Listen, if you're watching last
night games, man, they've rocked.
They've got some great titles and you got to check them out.
Thank you. No, I think.
The games and not because you've sent me a game or two and I'm
like, no, they were, they were genuinely incredible.
You guys, every, every interaction I've had with you
and your brother have always been delightful.
So you're, you don't actually, it's not just that y'all put out
good games. Y'all are good people.
Right and just. So, yeah, so I'm really
surprised to hear that because like, yeah, in my in my circle,
people know who you. Are oh, thank you, thank you.
Yeah, it's we we've I think we've we're how do I say this?
So I think we're kind of targeting a different level of
the audience than a lot of companies are targeting.
OK. I know a lot of designers really
like to go heavy and deep and make make these really deep in
wonderful games. We're kind of like, I don't
know, like riding the line or straddling the fence.
Maybe we're we're trying to make these games that have enough
strategy to keep hobby people entertained but be easy enough
for like mainstream people to pick up and play.
Sure, if that makes any sense. That makes a lot of sense.
I hear that a lot. And so I, I think when we're at
shows and conventions which are dominated by deep hobbyists, I,
I think we get a lot of passbys because you know, they're
looking for like worm span or something, you know, a lot
bigger, a lot deeper and heavier.
We get, we get mistaken for kids games a lot like, Oh, you make
kids games. And you know, I'll admit, some
of our art looks just really fun and young, but it's, it's, it's,
it's an interesting space, I think.
And we've, I don't know, we've, we've been navigating as best we
can, right? Like, you know, we, we aren't,
we aren't the kids games, but and sometimes people equate
family games with kids games. Oh, sure.
And so like I, I don't know, I, we've, we've had a lot of
discussion, like, you know, how do we, how do we state that
we're like, we have some strategy.
It's not the deepest strategy you'll ever play, but it's not
for kids. It'll keep you entertained, but
your friends can learn it, right.
So we, we have a lot of like heavier gamers taking our games
to their friends that, that don't play games.
And yeah, we've had a lot of friends like just I get pictures
of like family gatherings with them all around the table
playing Panda Royale or all around the table playing
horticulture. You know, just, they were able
to teach everybody the game because it was, it was easy.
It was a fast play, but there's enough, enough strategy that
it's not just boring, right? It's not right.
Move. Move to the Blue Square.
Move to the square. That is definitely the
conversation I think we hear the most in our in the gaming
community is how do we get our family who aren't hobbyists into
the hobby, or how do I connect with my grandfather or how do I
connect with my neighbors or people who aren't gamers.
And I think one of the things that struck me for a moment, if
we can talk about finest fish. So my wife saw it and was like,
we need a copy, right? And and so we we got a copy and
you sent it to us. And that game is incredibly like
crunchy, right? Like the hobbyists like to say,
right, It's very crunchy. The, the, the strategy is
incredibly deep. We had a, we did an episode with
Nick Bentley from Underdog Games where we talked about emergent
qualities in games where if you play a game more and more, more
strategies become evident and there's not just one way to
victory. And then, oh, you're done.
You shelf the game. I thought in my experience with
Finest Fish, there's, I definitely see those emerging
qualities playing at two players all the way up to four.
It's like there's a lot of different, you know, ways of
manipulating. There's different strategies for
that. Tell us a little bit about the
development of Finest Fish. Oh yeah, so I think I've said
this before on the interview, but we had originally started
with an idea. And again, Jake, Jake always
seems to come up with the really good ideas.
OK, came up with this idea because like it'd be fun to like
build the feathers on to a Peacock and make really fancy
Peacock. And OK, and we had actually, we
started it that way. So I am bet I, I'm very
fortunate. I have an industrial laser.
Cutter, by the way, OK. So it's, it's a, it's a Laguna
Tools 100 Watt CO2 laser, which cuts wood beautifully, makes
beautiful little bits. So Jake's like, I need you to
cut some pieces. And so I started cutting out
like these feather shapes and, you know, we paint them.
And then we start like playing around with him.
He's like, this would be cool. And and like you were saying
earlier, like we like to have kind of, we always like to
incorporate like multiple past victory, at least multiple ways
to score points. And so right, right out of the
gate, we were like, OK, you know, like obviously groups of
the same color style are going to, you know, work together and
then. You know, we could have like
objectives that you're trying to accomplish throughout that.
And so we started playing with it.
And so you're familiar with the finest fish.
The black scales are those the special scales, They don't show
up in the patterns, but they give you a bonus point no matter
where you're at. You can also double dip and
squirming groups if you get a big group of them.
And so those were originally these like red feathers and, you
know, we, we dropped that and they're like, OK, these red ones
can be this bonus point. And, and we had these like funny
looking little Peacock heads. And then we were building the
feathers onto it and it, we, yeah, we, we were getting into
it. We'd figured out like the
grouping and we're like, yeah, these patterns, you know, and
we're trying to figure out the patterns and stuff.
But like, we could tell something was there and we were,
we kept working on it and developing it forward.
And we, we, we figured out the patterns were like, OK, the
patterns, we want them, you know, not to be necessarily easy
to make patterns and groups of the same color at the same time.
Like we want them semi like a little bit orthogonal, right,
But not impossible if you're, if you're paying attention what
you're doing. And so like it was all like
working really well, but we had a hard time like like where did
we end this? Like they didn't feel like
there's any like natural end to it.
Also, we were starting to consider like manufacturing bits
and things and like the, the, the bits like that we had had
originally were like the scales were like, or the scales there
they were feathers, but they were like, they were like this
big, right? That's huge.
And we were like, how many are we going to need?
Sure. Honestly, honestly, the the
price was the biggest barrier in this game by a long shot.
People, people look at it and they're like, oh, it's a simple
game. But what you don't realize is
there's 180 scales, yes, and, and half of them are painted on
both sides. So I mean, it's, it's an
incredible anyway, so we were going and Jake also had this
like competing idea. He's like, oh, you know, we did
chameleon. Those are like the, the
traditional like rainbow colors and stuff.
I want something in like a nicer palette and stuff.
And so that's when we knew we'd have to like paint on them to
make sure that everyone could distinguish each color from the
other color. And so we were just kind of
plagued by like, how do we end this game?
And what's the manufacturing cost of this game?
And I'm going to take credit for this idea.
I was like. Oh, OK.
Because I was, I was, I was doing the, you know, the cut
files for the laser and stuff. And sure.
What if, what if I just make these circles because they were
a little bit elongated before, like more like a feather.
And I was like, what if I just make them circles?
And then I was like, wait, these, these look like scales,
like fish scales. And so at that moment, like I
took it to Jake. I'm like, Jake, what about if we
go, what if we do fish? He's like, it's like, I think
that's a good idea. I'm like, and look, we can like,
we can go out like this. And then we close it off.
And then when someone fills in the whole fish, the game's over.
And yeah. And so we're like, we quick
pivoted. I cut out these new fish boards
originally so that the, the Peacocks were not a double layer
board. They were just a single layer
and you're just building out on the table, right.
And so here we're like, OK, what can we do?
A two layer board? And, and so we did these two
layer fish and then we're stacking the scales on and we're
like, it feels great, you know, and like the component size came
down. It looked like it was easier to
fit in the box and you know, working with our factory, the
pricing was looking like is coming down.
Everyone we were play testing it with was like, oh, this is
great. I used to have and everyone
wants to come up and tell us I used to have a goldfish when I
was, you know, and so I felt like it was a win all around.
It's like, right. It was like people were like
super relating to it. They had natural closure.
We did a little research into like fish keeping and different
things like that and we found that, you know, there is
goldfish keeping out there. There's and I know we're not
true to like reality, but like there's calico patterning on
fish that is that is valuable. And so we're like, oh, perfect,
we'll make these black scales that match like this calico
pattern. It's prized.
You know, they'll be the bonus points.
So it just, it just kind of yeah, went from there and it
just like, yeah, picked up steam with with everyone we were
taking it to. And we're like, yeah, this is
going to be fun. Like let's do it.
And then, you know, at the end of the day, it still came in a
bit of a heavy hitter on the price, which I don't know.
We were just like, I don't know. I mean, we would have loved to
make it a 5 or 6 player game. Yeah, but we're just like, you
know, at the end of the day, they're like, yeah, factories,
you know, it's like it's looking like a $50 price point.
And we're like, oh, they're like high but.
It was right. I don't know.
I think it was worth it. I think I don't know, a lot of
people have enjoyed it so. Oh absolutely.
I think the present company included it was.
Great. Thank you.
Yeah. Yeah, I think it was.
It was a fun development, but yeah, like that, that's the the
whole story of it, I think. So it's 2021.
Jake has sent sent Chameleon Life of Chameleon to print Last
night games. Kind of.
That's the birthright you're 6 titles in.
Do you have a favorite amongst your titles?
I get, I get that. I get asked that a lot.
And my my first response is they're all my children.
Sure. The true, the true response is
whatever we're working on right now is my favorite because I
think, I think when we're like in the development, I think we
both really enjoy the design part.
But I know I do. And so when I'm designing and
I'm in the middle of I'm just like, oh, oh, this is fun.
I love this game and I love it so much.
Yeah, it's it's yeah. And then by the time it like
hits the streets, you're like, I have played that game so many
times, right? You're like, right, let's let's
play some, let's play a new game.
It's not that I don't enjoy my games.
I do enjoy games for sure. Of course.
But I also love like learning and playing new games.
So, right, usually when given the choice, I'm like, let's play
this new game. So what was what was your first
board game convention after establishing Last Night Games
and when was that do you remember?
So our very first convention was a local 1 called Salt Con.
It's it's in Salt Lake City. And we, we were the saddest
couple of guys. I think we had we had life of a
chameleon. We were, you know, going to
print with the finest fish. I don't even think we had a full
booth. I think we're at like a long
table, you know, and we're like, hey, we're new guys and we have
this game and, and it was, it was, it was kind of a crazy,
crazy time and crazy thing, but we actually ran, I had cut out
little like pins that people could put on their lanyards and,
and they were chameleons. And we had bought a bunch of
those like paint markers. And we're like having people sit
down at our table and paint little chameleons like, you
know, because that's life of chameleon and right, you know,
colour changing chameleons. And so people were making these
like amazing pins. And I think in some respects
people didn't even know that we had a game.
They're like, oh, this is the fun pin booth.
That happens to sell a board game.
It, you know, I mean, as much as I joke about it, I do think it
it, it drew, it drew people over to the booth.
And we ran that same painting thing again at Origins, again at
packs, and people really enjoyed it.
It was it was a lot of fun. I'd love to keep doing that.
Paint your own pin. Yeah, we've just, with all the
games we have, there's not enough space anymore.
So you need a bigger booth. Now.
We need to move on to the big, the big, big booths.
That's right. 60 by 60s. So have have either of you
attended and if not have plans to attend UKGE in the future?
Because I know if Gareth would hear, if Gareth were here, he
would ask that question. I absolutely have a desire.
I have a desire to go to all the places.
Sure. I think they're also fun.
No, we haven't yet. So we're, we've been working
with other partners and I don't think I can make any
announcements yet, but we've got some partners working with us to
internationalize some of our games.
And I think think I don't, I don't even know what the time
frame is. Hopefully maybe later this year
we'll we'll start seeing some of our games and some of those
conventions. We won't be running booths or
anything just yet. And I think that's just
something we got to figure out, like with with the
internationalization partners, it might make most sense that
just they do it, which would be great.
We could, I would love to just go as an attendees and sure.
And then, you know, I mean, work in a booth is fun, but I go to
so many shows where I just, you know, it's like Jake and I and,
and sometimes our wives come and it's just like non-stop work in
the booth and, and not, not many game plays.
Well, we, we have, we have quite the following in the UK yes, and
there is a vibrant and rich and very close knit community of
board game hobbyists in in the UK.
So and I know UK G's the one they all go to.
So guys, if you're watching y'all don't you go to y'all need
to reach out and help Nathan and Jake come to England, spend a
week in Birmingham and OK. Because as as we grow, we're
definitely going to be be it more of these events in these
places, right? Right now we're, you know, a
little of a hope focused close at home and right and.
But what about your convention schedule for this year, 2025?
I know it's still early, but yeah, everyone's thinking about,
I mean, everyone's asking me, I get messages all the time.
Are you going to be a Gen. cop? Yeah, I'll be there.
Have y'all finalized your convention schedule yet?
Yeah. I think for this year it's going
to be pretty much the same as last year.
This one isn't so important to maybe all the listeners, but
Jake will be at Gamma Expo in February and then I'll be at,
well, I think then it overlaps a little bit with our local SALT
Con. So we'll be at SALT Con for the
last couple days of it. I think at very minimum I'll be
at Origins and then we should both be at Gen.
Con and then tax on plugged. Tax on plug, that's OK.
Our schedule this year. We do so.
If your copies of games to play to wins and libraries as many as
many shows as we can, we can find in that will get that will
entertain us. So if you can't find us, you
might be able to find library or or play.
There you go, there you go. So guys, if you're attending any
of these conventions, be on the lookout, so.
Many good conventions. So many, right?
Yeah, so many of them. I wish I could just go to all of
them. So what are some of what are
some of the challenges that you see as a game designer?
And this could be, this is kind of wide open in the, in the
next, in this coming year, in the next 4 years as a designer.
I mean, we've got, you know, there's, there's talks of trade
wars and tariffs. And I know that's got everybody
kind of that's a legitimate concern, shipping concerns,
relationships, because we're, we're, we're a hobby that is
almost exclusively made in China.
So that's a real concern whether any of that happens or not.
But is there any like immediate or long term challenges you see
coming to fruition in the future or?
Yeah. So in, in terms of like
publishers, yeah, the the tariffs and stuff are really
concerning. So we, we have a, a great gamut
organization and they, I know are partnered with some people
and are going to bat with the with the powers that be to, to
try to keep games as a tariff free import.
And I know they're working pretty hard on that.
So I really congratulate and applaud them for for helping out
the industry. Yeah, we, we definitely rely
largely on China for the manufacturer of these games.
We have been in talks with with manufacturers in other
locations. And, you know, it's just a a
matter of like, you know, what is their pricing like and what
is there availability of like resources in this?
You know, in China you can pretty much find everything.
Some of the other places like they won't do dice or any
plastics. Some of the places won't like
have troubles with paper and won't do, you know much with
paper. So we've been looking around
and, and keep your eyes open. But I do think that's going to
be a concern for for all publishers as time goes on.
But hopefully, hopefully board games that bring everybody
happiness will will remain that tariff in free import for right
for for the foreseeable future. So we we can hope on that, you
know, yeah. As far as like the the game
designer side of things, yeah, I don't know.
There's, there's a, you know, there's a lot of days where I
don't feel like I'm a real game designer because I'm
self-publishing games and I'm like, well, anybody can publish
their own games. So I don't know how much of
great advice I can put out there.
Yeah, just, you know, know your audience, know who's who, who
you're targeting or you're playing for, you know, beware of
publishers that they, they have their own costs and things
publishers aren't, aren't mean, mean, angry people that you see
him to be. I've met a lot of great people
in the publishing industry and, you know, I know that their
hearts go out to all the designers out there.
And there's so many designers and, you know, I think I think a
lot of publishers would love to take in more games and more
games and more games. But there there's, you know,
realistic physical limits to, you know, a shippable printable
product that they can't, can't do all the things.
But yeah, I think if you have a good target for your audience,
find the the publishers that align the best with the, the
target that you're going for. And, you know, don't, don't,
don't get too downtrodden by like failed Kickstarters or
rejected rejections from publishers.
Like they don't hate you. They don't hate your game.
And even if they do, there might be someone else out there that
loves it. You know, that's awesome.
I. Love that.
That's great. So I'm a published author
myself. I've published a few books and
my first book, when I submitted it for for publication, I got my
first rejection letter from the publisher.
I framed it and just hung it up on a wall like a badge of honor,
right? That's the right attitude, I
think, and. It motivated me.
For a while. So yeah.
So that that's that's really good advice.
So what about we know there's a community of gamers.
What about the community of publishers?
So and I have a reason for asking that question because I
want to know about if there is if the community of publishers
is close knit, as close knit as the gaming, the gamers
community. And then if you have a designer,
right, I put out a game and I come to you.
If that community is close and my game's not the right fit for
a last night games. But you, you're like, you need
to think about John Doe at S&S publishing, right?
Like so that's kind of where I'm really trying to get at.
But I am curious about the community of publishers as a
whole. Yeah.
Well, and again, I'm, I'm not saying like we're fully
integrated. I'm not really necessarily
integrated in that publishing community.
But you know, from, from the part that we've been in that
we've experienced, I think the publishing community is a really
great community. And I think the people are
pretty tight knit. You know, it's, it's an
interesting space. We aren't like publishers aren't
making something that you can only buy one of or one of every
10 years. And so we're not like as
competitive. I think in that sense is like
most, you know, competitors would be in any given industry.
I have from personal experience, from experience of designer
friends and from designer publishers, absolutely
publishers will be like, hey, this, this doesn't really work
for us. Have you tried?
And they'll put you right to another publisher.
And I don't think, I don't know. I don't see, like when someone
comes out with a new game, it's like, oh, that's infringing.
We have to compete against that. You know, it's just like, you
know, we're just all making games.
And there's like, it's a really, you know, the number of people
that play games is a really big pie.
And we're all just like trying to make fun games that those
people will enjoy. Yeah.
So I've, I've sent people to other publishers for sure, like
when, when they come to my booth at the convention and they're
showing me their game, you know, take a look at it.
And if I, if I have any inkling of like, oh, this publishers
doing that kind of game or something, you know, I mean,
there's certainly publishers that, you know, work more in
like apparatuses and things. You know, you've got like your
Haba Amigo or Hasbro kind of space and or you've got like
your heavier games, you know, and then there's, you know,
point point people in that direction too.
And you know, there's, I think I think everybody out there's
really just, I mean, everyone I've met is pretty nice and
pretty helpful and we'll try to point in the right direction if
they possibly can. Cool.
I did. I did hear recently from one of
our local convention supporters. There was a there was a person,
I guess that they had dealt with that designed a game and and was
of the opinion that and had had shopped it around to a lot of
different publishers and it hadn't has not been accepted by
any publisher. And in this particular designer,
designer was of the opinion, well, all the publishers out
there are stupid because this great, this game is amazing.
And you know, I haven't, I didn't witness any of this first
hand, but just remember that. If you want the publishers to be
nice people, also be a nice person yourself.
And due respect if. People don't, don't, don't want
your game. And you know, there's always
opportunity to change it, advance it, and do take people's
input. It's not to say take everyone's
input, right, But consider the input that you're given and
decide whether or not you should act on it.
Yeah. Do you have a favorite game
mechanic? I don't know, I think.
And then my brother would say that I really like the Roland
rights, and so he'd probably tell everybody like Nate likes
rolling rights. I know that's not strictly.
Mechanic. Well, it kind of is.
But yeah, I do enjoy rolling rights.
I'm trying to think of, Yeah. I mean, I love like blueprints
of King Ludwig. I love the next station games,
all those. I love those.
Yeah. And I love get on board.
I have the the Paris sure one. Love it.
Yeah. So, you know, we made
horticulture. I love horticulture.
Is there a? Is there a mechanic that you
really are look that you have not yet designed a game using
this mechanic and you're looking forward to designing a game
using said mechanic? I hope it didn't break you with
that. Yeah, you're like.
No, Jake and I have a running joke that we've always tried to
make a card game and always ended up making something else.
So maybe someday we'll make a card game.
Galaxy Rush is a. Card game.
I mean, it is. It's played on cards.
Yeah, it's played on cards. That that that was, yeah, that
was another attempt to make a card game.
It is a card game, but it does have extra bits.
It's true. It's.
True, I you. Know, I think I would like to to
incorporate trick taking. Jake hates trick taking.
OK, I'm gonna put that out there.
OK. But I think I would like to try
to do that someday. And I know it's a, it feels like
maybe it's an overdone space, but I don't know, maybe I'll
just make something for for my own.
Yeah, to say I've done it. That would be an interesting one
to me. So.
Separate from last night games more about you my my last
question to you is what what are your top three favorite games
within your collection today? Not of all time like today cuz
you know our favorites change yeah no it's like I'll be honest
so today what are your top three favorite games that's out there
right now in my. Collection.
See, that's interesting. So I actually had watched one of
your, well, watched a podcast. I watched your video a couple
episodes ago where you'd mentioned Fromage.
And this last weekend, my wife and I were able to go to this
tiny little convention in Bryce, Utah.
And it was there and I played it and right, I didn't think I was
going to like it. I know that's really judgmental.
I was judging like, not that the arts bad.
I just thought it was going to be heavier than I was ready for.
OK, OK. And.
I. Quite enjoyed that, but it's not
my collection so that that doesn't count right now in my
collection, I really like Tangram City.
OK. Yeah.
We played that one a little bit. That was a pretty new one.
That's a we have Rosenberg. I always see his name wrong.
So Yep, sorry. Yep.
That one's fun. The blueprints of Nat King
Ludwig, that one, that one. We've, we've, we've got a lot of
play and yeah, I think, I don't know, maybe it's just because I
played them so much, but I really like the next Station
Games we have Tokyo, London and Paris, and I think most recently
I was playing Paris. Yeah, Paris is pretty.
They're all good. They're unique in their own
right. Yeah.
OK, there's no wrong answer. No, I just.
I just. I'm so nervous saying that
because I'm like, wait. Then I think of another game.
I'm like, oh wait, So the reason why I like.
Asking top three is I really. I don't enjoy when someone's
like. So what's your favorite board
game? Yeah.
OK. Yeah.
So what? What was it?
5000 titles came out in 2024 and just in 2024.
You want me to pick one? Yeah, of all.
Time come. On, I mean, any listener of our
show, they well viewers now they all know it's obsession.
That's that's our favorite game. And I managed to squeeze it in
to this episode. You, you know Dan.
Halligan lives in Utah now, OK. That's cool.
He. He.
Recently relocated to Somewheres in Utah.
He mentioned it in his interview with Gareth in episode 100.
So go back and check that out. Go check that out for sure.
So welcome down. Where can people?
Find you and Jake last night
games on all the social medias and everything for those
listening pretty much. Last night, games all jammed
together on all the platforms. There you go there.
It is got to keep it simple, right?
You know, I, I think that I'm going to change the title of
this episode to red feathers to black scales.
I wrote that down during the show.
I'm like red feathers to black scales.
I just that is a, that is an image that is going to stick
with me throughout this conversation.
So, so yeah, yeah. So Nathan, thank you so much for
joining and, you know, giving us some insight into you and your
brother's games, your company. Oh, what about the future?
Any any titles you can tell us about that are we should be
looking for? Yeah, so.
This one is a new one. That's that we're we're taking a
print right right now. OK, it's actually entered print,
but it's it's called Mystic Manor.
It's kind of an interesting game.
It's a haunted house. You play young explorers going
through the house, riding it of the unwanted ghost apparitions
and Imps. So OK.
Has a little bit of that like. Crawl explorer feel to it, but
it's it's easy to learn, just like the rest of our games.
I think that's the single. Attribute of all your games that
has been consistent and I think is the strength is there
accessibility to all players of all skill levels.
I think that's great. So thanks again guys for
watching, listening as always. We love having you.
Please don't forget to like and subscribe.
Leave comments down below. Nathan will be able to see them.
I'll see them. We'll respond to them
accordingly. So thanks again guys.