1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:04,280 Hey guys, and welcome to episode 109. 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,800 That's right, we are. We are just pushing along almost 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:14,560 to 110 and I'm really excited. As always, I remain PJ and in 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:20,520 this episode 6 titles, two brothers, one night, it's last 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,680 night games and with me is Nathan Jenny. 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,640 Nathan, how are you? Thanks. 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:27,920 Yeah. No thank. 8 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,320 Thanks for coming on. And I know you're in a comments 9 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:35,520 room at the office, so, you know, but we'll, we'll try to be 10 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,680 mindful of the time. So I was doing a little 11 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:40,160 research. I'd reached out. 12 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:42,560 Well, I guess I should say first I reached out to you and your 13 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,240 brother Jake at, I think it was Gen. 14 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,560 Con a year year ago. And then again, I think I saw 15 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,240 you at Origins or maybe I saw you at Gen. 16 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,040 Con. All the conventions blur 17 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,800 together, I feel like, right. It's just like, I want to, I 18 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,640 want to work with you guys. So you sent me a few games and 19 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:04,760 we just, we really, we love your products. 20 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:06,840 We love your, we love your concept. 21 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,640 You've got this amazing story that I want to dive into as 22 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,480 well. But I was, I was. 23 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,520 So why don't you tell us a little bit about you personally, 24 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,760 How did you get into the hobby? Like what was the first modern 25 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,760 board game for you? And a little bit like that like. 26 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,480 I don't know. We've been asked that question 27 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,600 before and tried to think like what, what was the first game? 28 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,120 So my Jake and I, we grew up in a family. 29 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,880 Our family was kind of always had board games and we had, you 30 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,600 know, a bunch of the old ones. You know, we had Scrabble and 31 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,000 Monopoly and then we had, I don't know, I think my parents 32 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,920 must have been into it a little bit because we, our collection 33 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,400 kind of grew over time and you know, we'd get like new things 34 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,840 like skip over phase 10 and stuff. 35 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,240 And we had some old interesting ones. 36 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,800 I don't know if you ever remember there's an old dungeon 37 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:05,840 game where you had little purple mini figs you'd move around the 38 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,759 dungeon. That kind of sounds familiar. 39 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,200 Yeah, it was, it was an old one. That one was like kind of like 40 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,560 tickling something I think in both of our minds. 41 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,840 And then we had this fun game called Careers, which was a 42 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:25,040 little more like a marriage trash, but maybe with a little 43 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:26,640 bit more choice in some of the games. 44 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:30,080 Anyway, we just kept growing and, and, you know, we went to 45 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,520 college and people had introduced us to even new games 46 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:40,280 like Dominion and such. And then, yeah, I think, you 47 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,240 know, I think actually Carcassonne was one of the, I 48 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,600 mean, if we're going to talk about what people classically 49 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,400 call their interests, I think I, my wife and I bought Carcassonne 50 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,280 and started playing and enjoyed it a lot. 51 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,360 That's cool. So and I think so. 52 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,160 I think that's the cool thing. I don't know that everyone knows 53 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,800 this about. It's a you and your brother. 54 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:02,520 You see, you grew up in the hobby. 55 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,800 I think you decided to go into business together and open up a 56 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,720 publishing house and you're publishing games like. 57 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,600 So I I wanna, I really want to dive into that because I'm 58 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,440 interested in what it's like to work with your brother. 59 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:19,160 So, like, I work with my wife, Right? 60 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:19,560 Yeah. OK. 61 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,760 So in my job, of course, she's my boss. 62 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,000 You guys are probably partners equals. 63 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,120 Oh, Jake's the boss. OK, so So what is that like, how 64 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,520 do you how do you manage, you know, when disagreements and 65 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,720 leave things at home, you know, not bringing them to work? 66 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,400 Like how does how does that dynamic play out in day-to-day? 67 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,240 Yeah, no, that's a, that's a great question. 68 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,400 So we had like 20 years of practice arguing and fighting. 69 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:56,360 So and then and then once we became adults, we, we put that 70 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:57,120 behind us. No. 71 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,440 So yeah, I, I think so. I'm actually the older brother. 72 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,840 I'm three years older than Jake. He's the so you know, obviously 73 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,680 he's the smarter one. I'm the better looking one. 74 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:16,959 The truth comes out. So, yeah, you know, we, we, we 75 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:20,040 got along, I think fairly well, although I'm not sure he would 76 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:25,720 say that growing up. And yeah, interestingly enough, 77 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:31,160 through a bunch of interesting events, we ended up starting 78 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:36,600 college the same year and we decided we'd be dorm roommates 79 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:38,760 for that first year. And I think my parents were 80 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:40,120 worried that we're going to kill each other. 81 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,280 Sure. But I think I don't know, I 82 00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:47,200 guess both of us just kind of grew up at that moment and we 83 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,440 just kind of saw each other peers and equals. 84 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,720 And since then, I think, you know, most that civil sibling 85 00:04:53,760 --> 00:05:01,080 rivalry has has died, right? But and we were always making up 86 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,080 games, you know, growing up and stuff, you know, nothing complex 87 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,840 or crazy, but you know, we had invent little games, you know, 88 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:12,600 because we were bored and we grew up before most electronics 89 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,000 and things. So we had like indoor baseball 90 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,880 where we would like roll up socks and roll up towels and 91 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,600 smash them across our room and dive onto the bed and, you know, 92 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,160 we'd do some outdoor games and stuff. 93 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,560 So we had always been like kind of creative and we had the 94 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:33,040 games. I'm growing up and, you know, I 95 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,480 guess it's been close to 10 years ago. 96 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,920 I guess Jake was just like, we should make a game. 97 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,800 Like let's make a real like a real board game. 98 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,120 We love board games. There's cool board games out 99 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:44,160 there. We should make a game. 100 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,840 I think that's when we got more serious about it and we sat down 101 00:05:47,840 --> 00:05:51,760 and actually started like thinking what it would be like 102 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:53,880 and, and, you know, where it would go. 103 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:59,440 And I don't know, it took us probably six or seven years of 104 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,440 just, you know, messing things up and scrapping ideas and 105 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:09,600 throwing things away before we really kind of got it enough 106 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,800 together that we could start publishing, right? 107 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,120 And your first title was Life of a Chameleon, right? 108 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:18,760 Is that right? That is so. 109 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,640 How many, how many? So, OK, so there's I have so 110 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:29,240 many questions. OK, so how many drafts or 111 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,800 iterations of that game before you came up with the final 112 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,880 product? I don't know we I was I was 113 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,920 reading A blog by another designer a while ago and this I 114 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,200 forget his name, sorry I can't credit. 115 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,040 No, it's OK credit. This person, but they were 116 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,520 talking about, you know, once they hit like 280 or something 117 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,120 revisions, then they were like getting confident that it was a 118 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,960 good game, right? That person must do a really 119 00:06:57,960 --> 00:06:59,720 good job of tracking what they're doing. 120 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,760 I don't think we track necessarily or, or, or maybe 121 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,360 formally recognize what revision. 122 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,760 And you know, going back to your earlier question about how we 123 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,400 make board games, honestly, I think the fact that we're 124 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:20,200 brothers and that we've known each other for so long, we can 125 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,680 be super honest and open about what's a good idea and what's a 126 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,600 bad idea. And I think, I think we're 127 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,400 constantly telling each other like, no, no, no, that doesn't 128 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,800 work because of this. And instead of being like ego 129 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,880 hits, I think it's a little more like, Oh, no, we're that's 130 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,280 you're right, Like there's something wrong here and we need 131 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:46,480 to work on it. So a lot, a lot of iterations to 132 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,720 answer the question. And I can't imagine at this 133 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:52,560 point designing games without Jake. 134 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:58,960 I think that pushback, right? He gives me helps us iterate a 135 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,200 little faster than maybe I would ever be able to do by my own. 136 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:08,200 Like I would just be spiraling off and like, you know, La La 137 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,520 Land and he's like, no, this is a dumb idea. 138 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:14,640 And then, you know, we'll start working on something. 139 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,800 And no, that's not working. And, and honestly, it's, it's 140 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:22,280 hard to, I think for me to attribute credit back and forth 141 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,000 like. Oh, sure. 142 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:28,160 Who who did what I I will say Jake came up with the initial 143 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,200 idea for life of one of the thoughts he had had initially is 144 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:37,120 like, you know, and especially those like older American games 145 00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:40,640 where you you'd pick your color and then March on the board. 146 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,880 He was interested in that concept of of your character, 147 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,640 your pond having a color. And he's like, well, it'd be fun 148 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:48,880 if that changed colors throughout the game. 149 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,520 Yeah. And that that's what got us 150 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:58,040 going on like, oh, well, we started thinking about like, 151 00:08:58,040 --> 00:08:59,720 well, why would you change color? 152 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,800 What's the theme? Nice. 153 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,840 Yeah, we came, came to Chameleons. 154 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,720 Cool. So so you Jake's got this idea 155 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,800 of let's it would be cool to change color. 156 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,520 You you go through the process. So now you're you're ready. 157 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,400 You were ready to go. And this might be a witch came 158 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:20,240 first the chicken or the egg question. 159 00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:23,240 I don't know. Your answer will reveal whether 160 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,320 that is or not. So you're ready to go and you 161 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,760 decide. Now you've got a question. 162 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,400 Do you open your own publishing house and publish it yourself? 163 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,480 Or do you go with a traditional publisher and you went with the 164 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:40,960 former? Or or did you decide we're going 165 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,440 to create Last Night games and then publish? 166 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,520 Or how did that evolve? Let you know on the secret. 167 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,920 We had a failed Kickstarter like a long time ago in like 16 or 168 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:57,520 something with, with even an earlier title than the one that 169 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,600 we haven't, yeah, actually published. 170 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:05,920 We, we had known, I don't know, we'd gone down that route and 171 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,280 run into to failure like like so many people do. 172 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:15,520 And we, my brother actually has from his job, a lot of 173 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,120 experience with like manufacturing and sourcing and 174 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:23,120 such. And we just were so new to like 175 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:24,920 the industry. I mean, we'd played games for a 176 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:26,840 long time, but we hadn't been around the industry. 177 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,960 We didn't know about like all the great resources, unpubs and 178 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,400 designer groups and different things. 179 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,040 And we didn't know how to, how to do anything. 180 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,760 And I think, I think it was Jake. 181 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:41,680 He was just like, look, I know how to do this. 182 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:45,400 Like we, we can do this. I've got experience in it. 183 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,120 And I'm like, oh, well, I don't know. 184 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,600 And you know, and then it was just like, can we afford to do 185 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,320 it? And like, I don't know. 186 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,760 And so I, I'm, I'm the Super conservative 1 and I, I'm just 187 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:01,960 dragging my feet and I don't know. 188 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:07,120 And, you know, mulling it over. And then I remember it was like 189 00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:11,360 2021, like shortly before I think Thanksgiving. 190 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:13,680 Jake's like, he's like, I did it. 191 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:17,320 I'm like, did it. You did what? 192 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,040 He's like, send our game to print. 193 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,240 Wow. So that's, that's he, he pushed 194 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,520 us, push us for it. And I'm so thankful for it 195 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,560 because right, I'd still be dragging my feet, like, at least 196 00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:33,800 years later. And that that's kind of the 197 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,040 model like I was so I was looking in through your website 198 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:42,200 in preparation for this episode and every game that you the two 199 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,760 of you designed them all so so. Far. 200 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,840 Yeah. So is that is it because there's 201 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:51,920 nothing that's coming? Because I'm I'm guessing as a 202 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,680 publisher, designers are just constantly pitching you with 203 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:58,160 games. Has nothing hit come across your 204 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,080 desk that's been like, yes, we need to publish this. 205 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:05,120 Or is it a design choice that it's just the two of you or like 206 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,880 what's what's the Yeah. I think that's the first time 207 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,080 I've been asked that question. That's that's a really 208 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,880 interesting question. I think in some ways we're just 209 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,480 not at a level where we're confident that we would serve 210 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,880 the designer as well as we should, if that makes sense. 211 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,520 You know, we're still just a few years into it and they're still 212 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:28,800 growing. We're still learning and making 213 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:33,480 mistakes. There's some really great 214 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,400 designers out there. And we do get a lot of people 215 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,000 reaching out to us for pitches and stuff. 216 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:41,680 And I feel really bad saying like, no, I mean, we, we really 217 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:45,280 haven't even just entertained the idea at all yet. 218 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:49,320 And I think it's, it's something we've talked about on occasion. 219 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,720 We, we also, I don't know, fortunately or unfortunately for 220 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,920 us, have like a ton of ideas that we're still also working on 221 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,360 ourselves. I mean, there's a little bit of 222 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,720 selfish aspect I think in it. We, we have, yeah, we have 223 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,960 several more games that we've started working on and some that 224 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:14,000 are coming down the pipeline and, and are doing, I'm not 225 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,720 going to say that we're not ever going to do that. 226 00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:21,120 But it's it's, I think it's a it's a responsibility, right? 227 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:26,640 Like when you take on someone, you want to give them, like you 228 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,560 want to give them the best showing that you can. 229 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:33,880 And right, I think we're still like growing and maybe not 230 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:36,600 putting putting our image out there. 231 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,280 I mean, we'll have people come up to us at conventions and be 232 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,360 like, I've never heard of you guys, like why you've got all 233 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,160 these games, like what right, what's going on? 234 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,560 And I'm like, I think that's like indicate indicating to me 235 00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:53,360 that maybe that we're, we're not, we're missing a little on 236 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:58,680 the promotion side of things. And, and yeah, maybe, maybe 237 00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:02,080 we'll get there and, and we'll, we'll feel more confident and 238 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,280 yeah. That's, that's really. 239 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,400 So for me personally, that's interesting to hear because at 240 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,560 least amongst the, the members of the hobby in the community 241 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,920 that I spend most of my time with, I communicate with 242 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:23,000 everyone's heard of you and yay Panda, Panda Royale, right. 243 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,680 That game just, well, it was wildfire and everyone was like, 244 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,160 oh, are you gonna, you gonna have Nathan and Jake on? 245 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,560 And I'm like, well, we're, we're trying to work something out. 246 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,880 You know, people are really excited about that. 247 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,440 And so, yeah, I guess I've got a surprise that people don't know 248 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,320 you. Listen, if you're watching last 249 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:42,840 night games, man, they've rocked. 250 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,960 They've got some great titles and you got to check them out. 251 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,480 Thank you. No, I think. 252 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,960 The games and not because you've sent me a game or two and I'm 253 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,760 like, no, they were, they were genuinely incredible. 254 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,520 You guys, every, every interaction I've had with you 255 00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,200 and your brother have always been delightful. 256 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,080 So you're, you don't actually, it's not just that y'all put out 257 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,560 good games. Y'all are good people. 258 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,280 Right and just. So, yeah, so I'm really 259 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,640 surprised to hear that because like, yeah, in my in my circle, 260 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,040 people know who you. Are oh, thank you, thank you. 261 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:20,640 Yeah, it's we we've I think we've we're how do I say this? 262 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,560 So I think we're kind of targeting a different level of 263 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,840 the audience than a lot of companies are targeting. 264 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,240 OK. I know a lot of designers really 265 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:34,520 like to go heavy and deep and make make these really deep in 266 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:39,920 wonderful games. We're kind of like, I don't 267 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,280 know, like riding the line or straddling the fence. 268 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,520 Maybe we're we're trying to make these games that have enough 269 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:51,840 strategy to keep hobby people entertained but be easy enough 270 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,920 for like mainstream people to pick up and play. 271 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,080 Sure, if that makes any sense. That makes a lot of sense. 272 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,720 I hear that a lot. And so I, I think when we're at 273 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,680 shows and conventions which are dominated by deep hobbyists, I, 274 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,040 I think we get a lot of passbys because you know, they're 275 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,840 looking for like worm span or something, you know, a lot 276 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,480 bigger, a lot deeper and heavier. 277 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,080 We get, we get mistaken for kids games a lot like, Oh, you make 278 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,680 kids games. And you know, I'll admit, some 279 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:27,880 of our art looks just really fun and young, but it's, it's, it's, 280 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:29,520 it's an interesting space, I think. 281 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,600 And we've, I don't know, we've, we've been navigating as best we 282 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,920 can, right? Like, you know, we, we aren't, 283 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:41,000 we aren't the kids games, but and sometimes people equate 284 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,360 family games with kids games. Oh, sure. 285 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,960 And so like I, I don't know, I, we've, we've had a lot of 286 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,480 discussion, like, you know, how do we, how do we state that 287 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,920 we're like, we have some strategy. 288 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,320 It's not the deepest strategy you'll ever play, but it's not 289 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,000 for kids. It'll keep you entertained, but 290 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:01,880 your friends can learn it, right. 291 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,640 So we, we have a lot of like heavier gamers taking our games 292 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,640 to their friends that, that don't play games. 293 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,680 And yeah, we've had a lot of friends like just I get pictures 294 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,960 of like family gatherings with them all around the table 295 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,839 playing Panda Royale or all around the table playing 296 00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:21,119 horticulture. You know, just, they were able 297 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,760 to teach everybody the game because it was, it was easy. 298 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:28,160 It was a fast play, but there's enough, enough strategy that 299 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:29,840 it's not just boring, right? It's not right. 300 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:31,240 Move. Move to the Blue Square. 301 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,280 Move to the square. That is definitely the 302 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,640 conversation I think we hear the most in our in the gaming 303 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:44,160 community is how do we get our family who aren't hobbyists into 304 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,560 the hobby, or how do I connect with my grandfather or how do I 305 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,240 connect with my neighbors or people who aren't gamers. 306 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,560 And I think one of the things that struck me for a moment, if 307 00:17:55,560 --> 00:18:00,240 we can talk about finest fish. So my wife saw it and was like, 308 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,600 we need a copy, right? And and so we we got a copy and 309 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:09,680 you sent it to us. And that game is incredibly like 310 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,800 crunchy, right? Like the hobbyists like to say, 311 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,080 right, It's very crunchy. The, the, the strategy is 312 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,600 incredibly deep. We had a, we did an episode with 313 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,880 Nick Bentley from Underdog Games where we talked about emergent 314 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:28,080 qualities in games where if you play a game more and more, more 315 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,680 strategies become evident and there's not just one way to 316 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,320 victory. And then, oh, you're done. 317 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,280 You shelf the game. I thought in my experience with 318 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,280 Finest Fish, there's, I definitely see those emerging 319 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,800 qualities playing at two players all the way up to four. 320 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,440 It's like there's a lot of different, you know, ways of 321 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,320 manipulating. There's different strategies for 322 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,680 that. Tell us a little bit about the 323 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:58,920 development of Finest Fish. Oh yeah, so I think I've said 324 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,680 this before on the interview, but we had originally started 325 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,680 with an idea. And again, Jake, Jake always 326 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:06,440 seems to come up with the really good ideas. 327 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,640 OK, came up with this idea because like it'd be fun to like 328 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:15,320 build the feathers on to a Peacock and make really fancy 329 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,040 Peacock. And OK, and we had actually, we 330 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:23,200 started it that way. So I am bet I, I'm very 331 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,400 fortunate. I have an industrial laser. 332 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,680 Cutter, by the way, OK. So it's, it's a, it's a Laguna 333 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:33,640 Tools 100 Watt CO2 laser, which cuts wood beautifully, makes 334 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,640 beautiful little bits. So Jake's like, I need you to 335 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,760 cut some pieces. And so I started cutting out 336 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,360 like these feather shapes and, you know, we paint them. 337 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:45,440 And then we start like playing around with him. 338 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,160 He's like, this would be cool. And and like you were saying 339 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,640 earlier, like we like to have kind of, we always like to 340 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,120 incorporate like multiple past victory, at least multiple ways 341 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:58,160 to score points. And so right, right out of the 342 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,120 gate, we were like, OK, you know, like obviously groups of 343 00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:05,280 the same color style are going to, you know, work together and 344 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,160 then. You know, we could have like 345 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,920 objectives that you're trying to accomplish throughout that. 346 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,920 And so we started playing with it. 347 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:17,560 And so you're familiar with the finest fish. 348 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,480 The black scales are those the special scales, They don't show 349 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,640 up in the patterns, but they give you a bonus point no matter 350 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,000 where you're at. You can also double dip and 351 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,080 squirming groups if you get a big group of them. 352 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,840 And so those were originally these like red feathers and, you 353 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,640 know, we, we dropped that and they're like, OK, these red ones 354 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:39,480 can be this bonus point. And, and we had these like funny 355 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,880 looking little Peacock heads. And then we were building the 356 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:49,200 feathers onto it and it, we, yeah, we, we were getting into 357 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:50,680 it. We'd figured out like the 358 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,560 grouping and we're like, yeah, these patterns, you know, and 359 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,480 we're trying to figure out the patterns and stuff. 360 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,720 But like, we could tell something was there and we were, 361 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,520 we kept working on it and developing it forward. 362 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,600 And we, we, we figured out the patterns were like, OK, the 363 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,040 patterns, we want them, you know, not to be necessarily easy 364 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:15,160 to make patterns and groups of the same color at the same time. 365 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,760 Like we want them semi like a little bit orthogonal, right, 366 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,920 But not impossible if you're, if you're paying attention what 367 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,280 you're doing. And so like it was all like 368 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:30,960 working really well, but we had a hard time like like where did 369 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,120 we end this? Like they didn't feel like 370 00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:34,920 there's any like natural end to it. 371 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,840 Also, we were starting to consider like manufacturing bits 372 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:44,800 and things and like the, the, the bits like that we had had 373 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,480 originally were like the scales were like, or the scales there 374 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,240 they were feathers, but they were like, they were like this 375 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,000 big, right? That's huge. 376 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:53,840 And we were like, how many are we going to need? 377 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,880 Sure. Honestly, honestly, the the 378 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,840 price was the biggest barrier in this game by a long shot. 379 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,800 People, people look at it and they're like, oh, it's a simple 380 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,600 game. But what you don't realize is 381 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:13,960 there's 180 scales, yes, and, and half of them are painted on 382 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,920 both sides. So I mean, it's, it's an 383 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,120 incredible anyway, so we were going and Jake also had this 384 00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:22,800 like competing idea. He's like, oh, you know, we did 385 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,760 chameleon. Those are like the, the 386 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,480 traditional like rainbow colors and stuff. 387 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,160 I want something in like a nicer palette and stuff. 388 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,320 And so that's when we knew we'd have to like paint on them to 389 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,720 make sure that everyone could distinguish each color from the 390 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,440 other color. And so we were just kind of 391 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,280 plagued by like, how do we end this game? 392 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,960 And what's the manufacturing cost of this game? 393 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,320 And I'm going to take credit for this idea. 394 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:51,240 I was like. Oh, OK. 395 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,720 Because I was, I was, I was doing the, you know, the cut 396 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,720 files for the laser and stuff. And sure. 397 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,800 What if, what if I just make these circles because they were 398 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,240 a little bit elongated before, like more like a feather. 399 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,840 And I was like, what if I just make them circles? 400 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,240 And then I was like, wait, these, these look like scales, 401 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:14,440 like fish scales. And so at that moment, like I 402 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,320 took it to Jake. I'm like, Jake, what about if we 403 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,240 go, what if we do fish? He's like, it's like, I think 404 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,240 that's a good idea. I'm like, and look, we can like, 405 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,360 we can go out like this. And then we close it off. 406 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,360 And then when someone fills in the whole fish, the game's over. 407 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:34,040 And yeah. And so we're like, we quick 408 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,480 pivoted. I cut out these new fish boards 409 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,040 originally so that the, the Peacocks were not a double layer 410 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:45,560 board. They were just a single layer 411 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,680 and you're just building out on the table, right. 412 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,240 And so here we're like, OK, what can we do? 413 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,280 A two layer board? And, and so we did these two 414 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,760 layer fish and then we're stacking the scales on and we're 415 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,240 like, it feels great, you know, and like the component size came 416 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:01,960 down. It looked like it was easier to 417 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,720 fit in the box and you know, working with our factory, the 418 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,480 pricing was looking like is coming down. 419 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,680 Everyone we were play testing it with was like, oh, this is 420 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,840 great. I used to have and everyone 421 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,440 wants to come up and tell us I used to have a goldfish when I 422 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,520 was, you know, and so I felt like it was a win all around. 423 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,880 It's like, right. It was like people were like 424 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,560 super relating to it. They had natural closure. 425 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:33,400 We did a little research into like fish keeping and different 426 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,440 things like that and we found that, you know, there is 427 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,680 goldfish keeping out there. There's and I know we're not 428 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,640 true to like reality, but like there's calico patterning on 429 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,160 fish that is that is valuable. And so we're like, oh, perfect, 430 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,160 we'll make these black scales that match like this calico 431 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,520 pattern. It's prized. 432 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,160 You know, they'll be the bonus points. 433 00:24:55,160 --> 00:25:00,000 So it just, it just kind of yeah, went from there and it 434 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,880 just like, yeah, picked up steam with with everyone we were 435 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,880 taking it to. And we're like, yeah, this is 436 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:06,400 going to be fun. Like let's do it. 437 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,400 And then, you know, at the end of the day, it still came in a 438 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,600 bit of a heavy hitter on the price, which I don't know. 439 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,680 We were just like, I don't know. I mean, we would have loved to 440 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,120 make it a 5 or 6 player game. Yeah, but we're just like, you 441 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:25,160 know, at the end of the day, they're like, yeah, factories, 442 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,760 you know, it's like it's looking like a $50 price point. 443 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,680 And we're like, oh, they're like high but. 444 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,520 It was right. I don't know. 445 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,360 I think it was worth it. I think I don't know, a lot of 446 00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:39,200 people have enjoyed it so. Oh absolutely. 447 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,400 I think the present company included it was. 448 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:42,040 Great. Thank you. 449 00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:43,920 Yeah. Yeah, I think it was. 450 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,960 It was a fun development, but yeah, like that, that's the the 451 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:56,200 whole story of it, I think. So it's 2021. 452 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:02,360 Jake has sent sent Chameleon Life of Chameleon to print Last 453 00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:03,320 night games. Kind of. 454 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,680 That's the birthright you're 6 titles in. 455 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,880 Do you have a favorite amongst your titles? 456 00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:15,320 I get, I get that. I get asked that a lot. 457 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,440 And my my first response is they're all my children. 458 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,640 Sure. The true, the true response is 459 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,040 whatever we're working on right now is my favorite because I 460 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,160 think, I think when we're like in the development, I think we 461 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,320 both really enjoy the design part. 462 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,640 But I know I do. And so when I'm designing and 463 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,200 I'm in the middle of I'm just like, oh, oh, this is fun. 464 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,240 I love this game and I love it so much. 465 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,440 Yeah, it's it's yeah. And then by the time it like 466 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,360 hits the streets, you're like, I have played that game so many 467 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:48,080 times, right? You're like, right, let's let's 468 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,240 play some, let's play a new game. 469 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,040 It's not that I don't enjoy my games. 470 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,200 I do enjoy games for sure. Of course. 471 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,720 But I also love like learning and playing new games. 472 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,240 So, right, usually when given the choice, I'm like, let's play 473 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:06,840 this new game. So what was what was your first 474 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,320 board game convention after establishing Last Night Games 475 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,080 and when was that do you remember? 476 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,960 So our very first convention was a local 1 called Salt Con. 477 00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:24,520 It's it's in Salt Lake City. And we, we were the saddest 478 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,080 couple of guys. I think we had we had life of a 479 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,200 chameleon. We were, you know, going to 480 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,680 print with the finest fish. I don't even think we had a full 481 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,200 booth. I think we're at like a long 482 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,680 table, you know, and we're like, hey, we're new guys and we have 483 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:47,080 this game and, and it was, it was, it was kind of a crazy, 484 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:54,080 crazy time and crazy thing, but we actually ran, I had cut out 485 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,400 little like pins that people could put on their lanyards and, 486 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,640 and they were chameleons. And we had bought a bunch of 487 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,640 those like paint markers. And we're like having people sit 488 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,800 down at our table and paint little chameleons like, you 489 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,600 know, because that's life of chameleon and right, you know, 490 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,960 colour changing chameleons. And so people were making these 491 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,400 like amazing pins. And I think in some respects 492 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:16,840 people didn't even know that we had a game. 493 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,000 They're like, oh, this is the fun pin booth. 494 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,800 That happens to sell a board game. 495 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,040 It, you know, I mean, as much as I joke about it, I do think it 496 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,000 it, it drew, it drew people over to the booth. 497 00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:34,960 And we ran that same painting thing again at Origins, again at 498 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:36,680 packs, and people really enjoyed it. 499 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,280 It was it was a lot of fun. I'd love to keep doing that. 500 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,200 Paint your own pin. Yeah, we've just, with all the 501 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,400 games we have, there's not enough space anymore. 502 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,200 So you need a bigger booth. Now. 503 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,680 We need to move on to the big, the big, big booths. 504 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,680 That's right. 60 by 60s. So have have either of you 505 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:03,840 attended and if not have plans to attend UKGE in the future? 506 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,480 Because I know if Gareth would hear, if Gareth were here, he 507 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,480 would ask that question. I absolutely have a desire. 508 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,760 I have a desire to go to all the places. 509 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:16,920 Sure. I think they're also fun. 510 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,280 No, we haven't yet. So we're, we've been working 511 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,600 with other partners and I don't think I can make any 512 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,400 announcements yet, but we've got some partners working with us to 513 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,080 internationalize some of our games. 514 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,520 And I think think I don't, I don't even know what the time 515 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,360 frame is. Hopefully maybe later this year 516 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,200 we'll we'll start seeing some of our games and some of those 517 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,120 conventions. We won't be running booths or 518 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,800 anything just yet. And I think that's just 519 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,040 something we got to figure out, like with with the 520 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,080 internationalization partners, it might make most sense that 521 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,640 just they do it, which would be great. 522 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,960 We could, I would love to just go as an attendees and sure. 523 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:06,800 And then, you know, I mean, work in a booth is fun, but I go to 524 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,800 so many shows where I just, you know, it's like Jake and I and, 525 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,760 and sometimes our wives come and it's just like non-stop work in 526 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,680 the booth and, and not, not many game plays. 527 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:25,520 Well, we, we have, we have quite the following in the UK yes, and 528 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:32,400 there is a vibrant and rich and very close knit community of 529 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,720 board game hobbyists in in the UK. 530 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,520 So and I know UK G's the one they all go to. 531 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,240 So guys, if you're watching y'all don't you go to y'all need 532 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,200 to reach out and help Nathan and Jake come to England, spend a 533 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:49,200 week in Birmingham and OK. Because as as we grow, we're 534 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,600 definitely going to be be it more of these events in these 535 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,320 places, right? Right now we're, you know, a 536 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,880 little of a hope focused close at home and right and. 537 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:05,240 But what about your convention schedule for this year, 2025? 538 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,360 I know it's still early, but yeah, everyone's thinking about, 539 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,840 I mean, everyone's asking me, I get messages all the time. 540 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,040 Are you going to be a Gen. cop? Yeah, I'll be there. 541 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,160 Have y'all finalized your convention schedule yet? 542 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,320 Yeah. I think for this year it's going 543 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,160 to be pretty much the same as last year. 544 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,320 This one isn't so important to maybe all the listeners, but 545 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:35,080 Jake will be at Gamma Expo in February and then I'll be at, 546 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,760 well, I think then it overlaps a little bit with our local SALT 547 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,000 Con. So we'll be at SALT Con for the 548 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,400 last couple days of it. I think at very minimum I'll be 549 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,520 at Origins and then we should both be at Gen. 550 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,840 Con and then tax on plugged. Tax on plug, that's OK. 551 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,920 Our schedule this year. We do so. 552 00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,400 If your copies of games to play to wins and libraries as many as 553 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,880 many shows as we can, we can find in that will get that will 554 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,680 entertain us. So if you can't find us, you 555 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,840 might be able to find library or or play. 556 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,600 There you go, there you go. So guys, if you're attending any 557 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,280 of these conventions, be on the lookout, so. 558 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,360 Many good conventions. So many, right? 559 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,320 Yeah, so many of them. I wish I could just go to all of 560 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,440 them. So what are some of what are 561 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,360 some of the challenges that you see as a game designer? 562 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:36,120 And this could be, this is kind of wide open in the, in the 563 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:41,120 next, in this coming year, in the next 4 years as a designer. 564 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,360 I mean, we've got, you know, there's, there's talks of trade 565 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,720 wars and tariffs. And I know that's got everybody 566 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,400 kind of that's a legitimate concern, shipping concerns, 567 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,320 relationships, because we're, we're, we're a hobby that is 568 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,160 almost exclusively made in China. 569 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,640 So that's a real concern whether any of that happens or not. 570 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,720 But is there any like immediate or long term challenges you see 571 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,720 coming to fruition in the future or? 572 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,480 Yeah. So in, in terms of like 573 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,680 publishers, yeah, the the tariffs and stuff are really 574 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,640 concerning. So we, we have a, a great gamut 575 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,480 organization and they, I know are partnered with some people 576 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,480 and are going to bat with the with the powers that be to, to 577 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,720 try to keep games as a tariff free import. 578 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,680 And I know they're working pretty hard on that. 579 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,760 So I really congratulate and applaud them for for helping out 580 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,880 the industry. Yeah, we, we definitely rely 581 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,520 largely on China for the manufacturer of these games. 582 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,680 We have been in talks with with manufacturers in other 583 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,560 locations. And, you know, it's just a a 584 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,240 matter of like, you know, what is their pricing like and what 585 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,600 is there availability of like resources in this? 586 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,480 You know, in China you can pretty much find everything. 587 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,560 Some of the other places like they won't do dice or any 588 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,400 plastics. Some of the places won't like 589 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,920 have troubles with paper and won't do, you know much with 590 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,360 paper. So we've been looking around 591 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,159 and, and keep your eyes open. But I do think that's going to 592 00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:26,199 be a concern for for all publishers as time goes on. 593 00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:29,920 But hopefully, hopefully board games that bring everybody 594 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,000 happiness will will remain that tariff in free import for right 595 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:39,639 for for the foreseeable future. So we we can hope on that, you 596 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:44,040 know, yeah. As far as like the the game 597 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,920 designer side of things, yeah, I don't know. 598 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,120 There's, there's a, you know, there's a lot of days where I 599 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,679 don't feel like I'm a real game designer because I'm 600 00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:55,120 self-publishing games and I'm like, well, anybody can publish 601 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,440 their own games. So I don't know how much of 602 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,680 great advice I can put out there. 603 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,440 Yeah, just, you know, know your audience, know who's who, who 604 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:14,200 you're targeting or you're playing for, you know, beware of 605 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,000 publishers that they, they have their own costs and things 606 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,880 publishers aren't, aren't mean, mean, angry people that you see 607 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,240 him to be. I've met a lot of great people 608 00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:30,320 in the publishing industry and, you know, I know that their 609 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,120 hearts go out to all the designers out there. 610 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,240 And there's so many designers and, you know, I think I think a 611 00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:38,560 lot of publishers would love to take in more games and more 612 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,680 games and more games. But there there's, you know, 613 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,800 realistic physical limits to, you know, a shippable printable 614 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:51,160 product that they can't, can't do all the things. 615 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:56,400 But yeah, I think if you have a good target for your audience, 616 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,120 find the the publishers that align the best with the, the 617 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,480 target that you're going for. And, you know, don't, don't, 618 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,520 don't get too downtrodden by like failed Kickstarters or 619 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,680 rejected rejections from publishers. 620 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,040 Like they don't hate you. They don't hate your game. 621 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,880 And even if they do, there might be someone else out there that 622 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,240 loves it. You know, that's awesome. 623 00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:23,760 I. Love that. 624 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,200 That's great. So I'm a published author 625 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,880 myself. I've published a few books and 626 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:35,680 my first book, when I submitted it for for publication, I got my 627 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,200 first rejection letter from the publisher. 628 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,360 I framed it and just hung it up on a wall like a badge of honor, 629 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,200 right? That's the right attitude, I 630 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:46,600 think, and. It motivated me. 631 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,600 For a while. So yeah. 632 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,520 So that that's that's really good advice. 633 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:56,400 So what about we know there's a community of gamers. 634 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,880 What about the community of publishers? 635 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,840 So and I have a reason for asking that question because I 636 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,560 want to know about if there is if the community of publishers 637 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,320 is close knit, as close knit as the gaming, the gamers 638 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,040 community. And then if you have a designer, 639 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,880 right, I put out a game and I come to you. 640 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,680 If that community is close and my game's not the right fit for 641 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,680 a last night games. But you, you're like, you need 642 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:27,400 to think about John Doe at S&S publishing, right? 643 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,280 Like so that's kind of where I'm really trying to get at. 644 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,320 But I am curious about the community of publishers as a 645 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,000 whole. Yeah. 646 00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:37,640 Well, and again, I'm, I'm not saying like we're fully 647 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,360 integrated. I'm not really necessarily 648 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:40,960 integrated in that publishing community. 649 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,360 But you know, from, from the part that we've been in that 650 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,560 we've experienced, I think the publishing community is a really 651 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,200 great community. And I think the people are 652 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,720 pretty tight knit. You know, it's, it's an 653 00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:55,680 interesting space. We aren't like publishers aren't 654 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,880 making something that you can only buy one of or one of every 655 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,920 10 years. And so we're not like as 656 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,480 competitive. I think in that sense is like 657 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,920 most, you know, competitors would be in any given industry. 658 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,880 I have from personal experience, from experience of designer 659 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,080 friends and from designer publishers, absolutely 660 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,840 publishers will be like, hey, this, this doesn't really work 661 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:22,320 for us. Have you tried? 662 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,600 And they'll put you right to another publisher. 663 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:32,200 And I don't think, I don't know. I don't see, like when someone 664 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,720 comes out with a new game, it's like, oh, that's infringing. 665 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:37,880 We have to compete against that. You know, it's just like, you 666 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,160 know, we're just all making games. 667 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,400 And there's like, it's a really, you know, the number of people 668 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:43,920 that play games is a really big pie. 669 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:49,040 And we're all just like trying to make fun games that those 670 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:50,680 people will enjoy. Yeah. 671 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,720 So I've, I've sent people to other publishers for sure, like 672 00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:58,880 when, when they come to my booth at the convention and they're 673 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,000 showing me their game, you know, take a look at it. 674 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,240 And if I, if I have any inkling of like, oh, this publishers 675 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,200 doing that kind of game or something, you know, I mean, 676 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,320 there's certainly publishers that, you know, work more in 677 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,200 like apparatuses and things. You know, you've got like your 678 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:18,120 Haba Amigo or Hasbro kind of space and or you've got like 679 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,520 your heavier games, you know, and then there's, you know, 680 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,120 point point people in that direction too. 681 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:29,280 And you know, there's, I think I think everybody out there's 682 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,200 really just, I mean, everyone I've met is pretty nice and 683 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,040 pretty helpful and we'll try to point in the right direction if 684 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,000 they possibly can. Cool. 685 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,760 I did. I did hear recently from one of 686 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,800 our local convention supporters. There was a there was a person, 687 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,280 I guess that they had dealt with that designed a game and and was 688 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,600 of the opinion that and had had shopped it around to a lot of 689 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,160 different publishers and it hadn't has not been accepted by 690 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,840 any publisher. And in this particular designer, 691 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,160 designer was of the opinion, well, all the publishers out 692 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,920 there are stupid because this great, this game is amazing. 693 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,920 And you know, I haven't, I didn't witness any of this first 694 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:19,360 hand, but just remember that. If you want the publishers to be 695 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,680 nice people, also be a nice person yourself. 696 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,920 And due respect if. People don't, don't, don't want 697 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,520 your game. And you know, there's always 698 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,200 opportunity to change it, advance it, and do take people's 699 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,360 input. It's not to say take everyone's 700 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,440 input, right, But consider the input that you're given and 701 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,080 decide whether or not you should act on it. 702 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:43,200 Yeah. Do you have a favorite game 703 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,520 mechanic? I don't know, I think. 704 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,360 And then my brother would say that I really like the Roland 705 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,680 rights, and so he'd probably tell everybody like Nate likes 706 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,600 rolling rights. I know that's not strictly. 707 00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:00,160 Mechanic. Well, it kind of is. 708 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,640 But yeah, I do enjoy rolling rights. 709 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:10,600 I'm trying to think of, Yeah. I mean, I love like blueprints 710 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:17,800 of King Ludwig. I love the next station games, 711 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:19,600 all those. I love those. 712 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,040 Yeah. And I love get on board. 713 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,800 I have the the Paris sure one. Love it. 714 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,000 Yeah. So, you know, we made 715 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:31,560 horticulture. I love horticulture. 716 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,840 Is there a? Is there a mechanic that you 717 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,960 really are look that you have not yet designed a game using 718 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,800 this mechanic and you're looking forward to designing a game 719 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,960 using said mechanic? I hope it didn't break you with 720 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:48,720 that. Yeah, you're like. 721 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:54,000 No, Jake and I have a running joke that we've always tried to 722 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,560 make a card game and always ended up making something else. 723 00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,120 So maybe someday we'll make a card game. 724 00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:02,440 Galaxy Rush is a. Card game. 725 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,160 I mean, it is. It's played on cards. 726 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,560 Yeah, it's played on cards. That that that was, yeah, that 727 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,960 was another attempt to make a card game. 728 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,080 It is a card game, but it does have extra bits. 729 00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:14,400 It's true. It's. 730 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:20,960 True, I you. Know, I think I would like to to 731 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,360 incorporate trick taking. Jake hates trick taking. 732 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:25,200 OK, I'm gonna put that out there. 733 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,840 OK. But I think I would like to try 734 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,800 to do that someday. And I know it's a, it feels like 735 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,640 maybe it's an overdone space, but I don't know, maybe I'll 736 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,280 just make something for for my own. 737 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,760 Yeah, to say I've done it. That would be an interesting one 738 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:43,920 to me. So. 739 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,640 Separate from last night games more about you my my last 740 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:53,120 question to you is what what are your top three favorite games 741 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,560 within your collection today? Not of all time like today cuz 742 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,040 you know our favorites change yeah no it's like I'll be honest 743 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,840 so today what are your top three favorite games that's out there 744 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,360 right now in my. Collection. 745 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,560 See, that's interesting. So I actually had watched one of 746 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,720 your, well, watched a podcast. I watched your video a couple 747 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,560 episodes ago where you'd mentioned Fromage. 748 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:23,120 And this last weekend, my wife and I were able to go to this 749 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,360 tiny little convention in Bryce, Utah. 750 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:32,240 And it was there and I played it and right, I didn't think I was 751 00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:36,000 going to like it. I know that's really judgmental. 752 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,800 I was judging like, not that the arts bad. 753 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,480 I just thought it was going to be heavier than I was ready for. 754 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,000 OK, OK. And. 755 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,880 I. Quite enjoyed that, but it's not 756 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,440 my collection so that that doesn't count right now in my 757 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,880 collection, I really like Tangram City. 758 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,280 OK. Yeah. 759 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,560 We played that one a little bit. That was a pretty new one. 760 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,960 That's a we have Rosenberg. I always see his name wrong. 761 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:05,280 So Yep, sorry. Yep. 762 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:13,080 That one's fun. The blueprints of Nat King 763 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,520 Ludwig, that one, that one. We've, we've, we've got a lot of 764 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,440 play and yeah, I think, I don't know, maybe it's just because I 765 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,840 played them so much, but I really like the next Station 766 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:27,640 Games we have Tokyo, London and Paris, and I think most recently 767 00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:30,840 I was playing Paris. Yeah, Paris is pretty. 768 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,400 They're all good. They're unique in their own 769 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:34,400 right. Yeah. 770 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,600 OK, there's no wrong answer. No, I just. 771 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:40,680 I just. I'm so nervous saying that 772 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,000 because I'm like, wait. Then I think of another game. 773 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,360 I'm like, oh wait, So the reason why I like. 774 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:50,640 Asking top three is I really. I don't enjoy when someone's 775 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:51,760 like. So what's your favorite board 776 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:52,880 game? Yeah. 777 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:53,800 OK. Yeah. 778 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,080 So what? What was it? 779 00:44:55,520 --> 00:45:00,800 5000 titles came out in 2024 and just in 2024. 780 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,520 You want me to pick one? Yeah, of all. 781 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,040 Time come. On, I mean, any listener of our 782 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:11,440 show, they well viewers now they all know it's obsession. 783 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,040 That's that's our favorite game. And I managed to squeeze it in 784 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:19,440 to this episode. You, you know Dan. 785 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,040 Halligan lives in Utah now, OK. That's cool. 786 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:23,720 He. He. 787 00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:27,440 Recently relocated to Somewheres in Utah. 788 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,840 He mentioned it in his interview with Gareth in episode 100. 789 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,920 So go back and check that out. Go check that out for sure. 790 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,240 So welcome down. Where can people? 791 00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:41,480 Where can people? Find you and Jake last night 792 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,720 games on all the social medias and everything for those 793 00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:48,240 listening pretty much. Last night, games all jammed 794 00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:52,040 together on all the platforms. There you go there. 795 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,040 It is got to keep it simple, right? 796 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,480 You know, I, I think that I'm going to change the title of 797 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:02,520 this episode to red feathers to black scales. 798 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,440 I wrote that down during the show. 799 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,840 I'm like red feathers to black scales. 800 00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:11,200 I just that is a, that is an image that is going to stick 801 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,880 with me throughout this conversation. 802 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:19,720 So, so yeah, yeah. So Nathan, thank you so much for 803 00:46:19,720 --> 00:46:23,520 joining and, you know, giving us some insight into you and your 804 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:28,480 brother's games, your company. Oh, what about the future? 805 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:32,000 Any any titles you can tell us about that are we should be 806 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,240 looking for? Yeah, so. 807 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,680 This one is a new one. That's that we're we're taking a 808 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,240 print right right now. OK, it's actually entered print, 809 00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:43,680 but it's it's called Mystic Manor. 810 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:46,760 It's kind of an interesting game. 811 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:51,320 It's a haunted house. You play young explorers going 812 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,800 through the house, riding it of the unwanted ghost apparitions 813 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,520 and Imps. So OK. 814 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:02,000 Has a little bit of that like. Crawl explorer feel to it, but 815 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,800 it's it's easy to learn, just like the rest of our games. 816 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:09,720 I think that's the single. Attribute of all your games that 817 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,880 has been consistent and I think is the strength is there 818 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:18,000 accessibility to all players of all skill levels. 819 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,600 I think that's great. So thanks again guys for 820 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,560 watching, listening as always. We love having you. 821 00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,320 Please don't forget to like and subscribe. 822 00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:32,400 Leave comments down below. Nathan will be able to see them. 823 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,480 I'll see them. We'll respond to them 824 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,600 accordingly. So thanks again guys.