1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,880 Hey guys, and welcome to episode 162 of Maple to People. 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,160 Today, we're exploring the issue of sustainability in the 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,200 tabletop gaming world. From plastic miniatures and 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,080 shrink wrap to global shipping routes and manufacturing 5 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:17,600 materials, The hobby we share has a footprint, but it also has 6 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,120 enormous potential for innovation and positive change. 7 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,640 As more publishers, designers, and gamers ask how can we make 8 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,360 games greener without sacrificing creativity? 9 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:34,440 Equality, a new chapter in board gaming, is unfolding before our 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,200 very eyes. And joining me to dig into this 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:42,000 intersection of environment, ecology, and entertainment is 12 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,920 someone who's been working on these issues from multiple 13 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,000 angles. Julie Beerworth. 14 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,640 Julie has built her career at the crossroads of gaming and 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:56,600 environmental responsibility. She is currently the Chair of 16 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:58,760 the Committee on Sustainability with Gamma. 17 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,920 She's a collaborator behind the second edition of the Green 18 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:09,120 Games Guide, and she's owner illustrator at Distant Rabbit 19 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,960 Games. So it is clear that she's got a 20 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:16,880 resume that indicates she knows what she's talking about. 21 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:18,520 And I'm happy to be talking with her today. 22 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:20,440 Julie, thanks for joining. How are you? 23 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,560 I'm doing great, PJ. Thank you so much for having me. 24 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:25,680 How are you? I'm great. 25 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:30,320 I'm really excited because this is a topic that I'm really 26 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:32,320 thrilled to talk about and have you on. 27 00:01:32,320 --> 00:01:35,040 I've always wanted to, I've said this multiple times, there's 28 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:39,200 issues that are really important to this industry and to me, but 29 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,240 I'm not an expert on them. And so finding experts to come 30 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:46,480 on the show, I'm really thrilled to learn about you and have you 31 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,560 on SO again. Well, thank you so much. 32 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,960 Yeah, I've been very fortunate, sort of like what you're talking 33 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:53,640 about. I've been very fortunate to work 34 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,240 with people who are experts within this industry from lots 35 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,480 of different angles, people who are doing the manufacturing and 36 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,280 people who do, you know, footprint analysis, like 37 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:02,680 actually calculating these things. 38 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,520 I'm more sort of the collator of all that information and trying 39 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,600 to, you know, connect the right people with the right 40 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:10,759 opportunities. But I've, I feel like I've 41 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:13,640 learned a lot along the way and it's mostly just that I, there 42 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:16,080 are a few things that will motivate me quite as well as 43 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:17,120 sustainability. Well. 44 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,240 You're the perfect guest to have on to talk about about this. 45 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,120 But before we went and get into it, I I wanted to ask you, what 46 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,480 was the first board game that you ever played that got you in 47 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:28,720 the muck? It's going to be it's going to 48 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,200 be the classic answers. The resistance was up there. 49 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:33,960 Catan was up there. Catan. 50 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:35,360 Yep. And I can't even tell you which 51 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,960 one came first. And also Munchkin. 52 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,440 These were the ones that friends introduced me to back. 53 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,040 I know Munchkins throwback. Like I feel like Munchkin has 54 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,440 fallen out of the gateway game. Yes. 55 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:52,600 In favor of other things, but in my day that was a big gateway 56 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,840 game. You, you are back in the you and 57 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,080 you're definitely in safe hands here. 58 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,320 Because you know, those are those are some of my similar 59 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,560 beginning games as well. No one has mentioned Munchkin. 60 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:09,120 I've virtually forgot about it till you just mentioned it. 61 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:10,960 I know I have not played it in so many years. 62 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,600 Yeah, that. That one was at the at the time 63 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:16,600 that I feel like a lot. I knew a lot of people who 64 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,520 played it and I got introduced to it probably around the same 65 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,280 time as Catan, I think. I think even resistance was a 66 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,400 little bit later. But yeah, those were those were 67 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,320 my first. So those, OK, so that's an 68 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,080 interesting trio. I want to unpack that for a 69 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,480 minute, right. So you've got Catan, which is 70 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:37,360 the quintessential Eurogame that comes over to the US and the 71 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:42,080 Western world in the Mid East. And then you got the resistance, 72 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:46,880 which is social deduction, bluffing, things of that nature. 73 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,280 And then there's Munchkin, which at its core is a simple card 74 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,200 game, But is, you know, that that whole, I think what people 75 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,920 don't like about it or why they don't play it as often as that, 76 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,920 that kingmaker kind of at the ending, right? 77 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,560 It's like whoever gets closest to the 10th point, we just gang 78 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,080 up on them. And then Julie comes in for the 79 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:06,720 win. Yep. 80 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:12,720 So after having said all that, what was it that, if you'll 81 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:18,200 pardon the pun, sustained your interest in the hobby? 82 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,880 It's two things. And it, you know, it was so all, 83 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,200 all of those things were introduced to me by various 84 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,120 friends in various circles. And they just sort of felt like, 85 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:29,720 you know, they came about naturally. 86 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,680 I'd be at a friend's house and they'd say, I have this game 87 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:33,920 that I really want to introduce you to that all that all felt 88 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,320 very natural. It was when my husband and I 89 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,520 first got together, he had grown up playing lots of games and I 90 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,040 need young children. And so we started a lot of the, 91 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,920 you know, games, Sleeping Queens, a lot of the, you know, 92 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,160 games that are accessible for kids. 93 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,400 We played them all the time. All, I mean, the amount of games 94 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,960 that we played with our kids when they were young was 95 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,840 incredible. We both have a, a university 96 00:05:00,840 --> 00:05:03,080 schedule for most of the year and our kids have a school 97 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:04,520 schedule. And so during the summers, you 98 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:06,840 know, what do we have to do all day except play games with our 99 00:05:06,840 --> 00:05:08,800 kids? So that was that was a little 100 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:13,240 bit of the the beginning of it. But then, you know, they would 101 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,080 go to bed and we'd want something that we could do just 102 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,720 the two of us. And so we started finding ones 103 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,080 that we're going to be good for when we were together, some some 104 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,520 when we were long distance that we could play online. 105 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,280 We, you know, that's how we got into Splendor, was playing. 106 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:30,640 On the app. Together, that was another big 107 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,680 gateway one for us, for our like 2 player. 108 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,040 Hanabi was another big one for 2. 109 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,560 And then we started kind of bridging that gap into like 110 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,720 Terraforming Mars and, you know, things that we're going to be 111 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,240 heavier. But the, yeah, the the big thing 112 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,080 that we never found, we we both really loved the resistance. 113 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,400 That was kind of a, a hands down classic. 114 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,440 And especially for the player psychology aspect of it, none of 115 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,160 the Euro games ever touched for us what was like, you know, 116 00:05:57,280 --> 00:06:00,480 emotional and evocative. And so seeking out more hit and 117 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,280 roll and betrayal experiences was sort of how we kept pushing 118 00:06:04,280 --> 00:06:06,000 forward until we started publishing games. 119 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,960 Interesting, interesting. So what about the step from 120 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:14,120 being a gamer to a publisher? What was your motivation for 121 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,520 starting your company and designing? 122 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,440 Yeah, it was just 100% an accident. 123 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,000 It was literally the most, the most an accident it can ever be 124 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:28,560 when you publish a game. It was My husband was in the 125 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,040 midst of a very stressful first semester. 126 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,640 He was untenured his first semester of teaching as a 127 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,200 professor. And whenever he encounters that 128 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,040 kind of intense stress, he has these bursts of creativity 129 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,080 that's sort of like a coping mechanism basically. 130 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:47,520 And he had this idea of what if we could do a hit and roll game 131 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,960 for two players. There was no thought, zero 132 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,400 thought to publishing anything. We didn't know anybody who 133 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,240 published. We didn't know that you could 134 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,080 even. We thought this was like a this 135 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,920 is how this is how unaware we were. 136 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,200 You know, we knew about Katan and Munchkin. 137 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,640 You know, we knew about all those things, but they seemed so 138 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:06,520 distant to us that we were like, well, if we were to publish a 139 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,240 game, we would have to bring it to like, Parker Brothers. 140 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,600 Like, this is how far outside of the indie. 141 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,280 Like, in our mind, there were like, you know, four different 142 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,480 companies that you could go to to publish something. 143 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:19,840 In the meantime, there's this whole gigantic, you know, indie 144 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,360 hockey industry whole. Yeah. 145 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,760 Yeah, that we had no idea that we didn't even know Kickstarter 146 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,560 existed. And so we were like, well, we 147 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,040 could, we could make something that you and I could play 148 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,280 together. And so he, he I was, I was away 149 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,880 at the time and he made this whole two player hidden role 150 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:37,200 game, which had never been done before. 151 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,960 We didn't know this, but nobody had ever really kind of cracked 152 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:41,600 the the two player hidden role code. 153 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,760 And but we wanted something we could play after our kids went 154 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,320 to bed where we wouldn't have to have a million friends over to 155 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,160 play something hidden role. And I played it with him and I 156 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,880 was like, wow, this is hands down the best game I've ever 157 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:54,720 played. And still we didn't think about 158 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,040 publishing it. We had got one of those keepsake 159 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,040 Zazzle boxes where you like it, you know, like a like picture of 160 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,560 your family on the front of it. And we call it the game of 161 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:06,520 trust. Put the put the thing on the 162 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,160 front of it, kept all like got some cards printed. 163 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:11,960 But that was the extent of it for I mean, for four years we 164 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,120 just played it, the two of us. And that was all it was ever 165 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,480 going to be, was just something for us to play together. 166 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,360 And then it was actually just a complete accident that a friend 167 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:26,800 of a friend person I worked for at the time knew some folks at 168 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,640 Keymaster Games who had just done their first Kickstarter. 169 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,559 And we're like, oh, you know, we, you can actually publish 170 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:34,880 things. You, you have this whole game 171 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,039 that you designed with your husband, you know, you could 172 00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:40,440 actually make that yourself. And so they kind of took us 173 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,400 under their wing and, and LED us through the whole how you, how 174 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,080 you go to conventions and then you publish a game and do a run 175 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,680 a Kickstarter and all of that. So it was, it was just, we just 176 00:08:50,680 --> 00:08:55,160 made a game for us and with no intention at all marketing it. 177 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:56,640 And then it just all kind of fell in our lap. 178 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,520 Wow, four years. Yeah, yeah, it was a lot. 179 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,080 It was every night for four years, sometimes two games a 180 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,280 night. And this is it runs for about an 181 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,800 hour, hour and a half per game. So yeah. 182 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,240 And that was it was all we wanted to do with each other. 183 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,760 That's great. Yeah, that is that is a great 184 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,160 story. Thank you so much for sharing. 185 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,960 That that that that is amazing. I really enjoy that. 186 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,240 So let me ask you what sparked your interest in sustainability 187 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,520 as an overarching topic and follow up is how did it 188 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:34,080 eventually intersect with your career in the board gaming world 189 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,080 specifically? Yeah. 190 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,760 So sustainability, you know, it's always been a, my husband 191 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,080 and I both went to school, master's PhD, like did the, did 192 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:49,000 the whole track. And it's always been a, a 193 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,400 concern, a part of our thought process. 194 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:55,560 But it I would say the real, real thing that kind of kicked 195 00:09:55,560 --> 00:10:02,440 that into OverDrive for us was actually my husband's sister was 196 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,000 actually very sustainably minded, like diligent in every 197 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,640 possible way about what she was doing, her footprint and all 198 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,920 that. And during our shortly after our 199 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,040 Kickstarter for our first game, we'd, we'd already decided we 200 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,480 wanted to go carbon neutral and we wanted to, you know, think 201 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,840 about it sustainably, do a small box game and all that kind of 202 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:22,680 stuff. But, you know, shortly after our 203 00:10:22,680 --> 00:10:25,680 Kickstarter, she was in a fatal car accident. 204 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,560 And I think for me, for both of us, a part of our kind of 205 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,720 increasing commitment to sustainability has been a little 206 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:37,480 bit of like a honoring what she would have wanted to not create 207 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,040 things thoughtlessly or needlessly. 208 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:42,840 And that if you're going to create, that you create it 209 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,640 artistically with intention that it's a contribution that, you 210 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:48,760 know, an artistic contribution that you feel like needs to be 211 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,960 in the world, not just a, you know, consumer item. 212 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,200 And that it's the best that it can be reasonably. 213 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,040 I mean, even even she would understand there are limits. 214 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,720 You're going to run a company that you're going to, you can't 215 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,880 bankrupt your company. You can't, you know, not be able 216 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:08,120 to pay your bills, you know, to be able to be sustainable. 217 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,200 But there are a lot of decisions and that was what we realized as 218 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:12,560 we were going through. There are a lot of decisions 219 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:15,040 that can be made that aren't unsustainable, that are like 220 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,800 unsustainable from a financial perspective or from a company 221 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,040 perspective, right? Like there are things you can do 222 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,560 that are inexpensive or no cost at all to improve that 223 00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:27,040 footprint. And so that's that's where we've 224 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,240 been spending a lot of our time lately. 225 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,520 Well, extend my condolences, but a great way to keep her memory 226 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,080 alive. Yeah, that's that's just an 227 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,680 inspiring story. Thank you for that. 228 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,800 I guess so. So now you how many how many 229 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,040 games have you guys published now on your? 230 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,480 We actually our first one, Mantis Falls has been so great 231 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,120 for us that we've actually, we've been, we've got four more 232 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,000 in the queue, but we've been supporting that one and kind of 233 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,040 building all of the infrastructure around it for the 234 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:01,040 last four years. So it sells as well today as it 235 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,680 did back when we launched it. And it means that this is now 236 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,720 the majority of my work is working for Distant Rabbit. 237 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:13,840 I still teach some, but that's I'm stepping back more and more 238 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,440 from that. And yeah, that's so our next one 239 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,440 is a is a sequel, standalone sequel to Mantis Falls. 240 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,400 Is it also going to be a? Is it also going to be a two 241 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,120 player? It's 2 to 4. 242 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,080 Manas Falls was 2:00 to 3:00. So we did expand it to three 243 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,680 eventually, specifically when our when our son got really 244 00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:32,960 interested in playing. It's all a big family. 245 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,680 I'm noticing a pattern. The children seem to be. 246 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,880 They are a big. Driving the yeah. 247 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,440 So what does based on this experience, what does 248 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,600 sustainability actually look like currently in the board 249 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,760 gaming? You mean like how many people 250 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:51,960 are sustainable from what are the? 251 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,000 From a like, what is it? What does it look like from the 252 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,400 publisher and manufacturer side, Right, That you know, most of 253 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,960 the listeners are either content creators or they're just basic 254 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:06,760 gamers who don't know what it looks like behind the scene. 255 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,320 Yeah. So once a game is finished, I 256 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,040 mean, we'll talk about from the design end too, there's 257 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,760 sustainability can come in from the design. 258 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,120 And I actually just did a talk for the Tabletop Game Designers 259 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,840 Association talking about what designers specifically can be 260 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,880 doing to even at the beginning of their process to start 261 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:24,840 thinking about moving in a better direction. 262 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:29,720 However, the majority of the work is on the publisher and the 263 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:34,080 manufacturer and by extension on the consumer right to support 264 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:38,880 those those types of companies. After after a game is designed 265 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:45,280 and play tested, one of the biggest projects that a 266 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:50,280 publisher does is production. And that is what are the 267 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,080 components going to look like? How big are they? 268 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:54,680 What materials are they made from? 269 00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:57,440 You know, what does all of this in the end actually end up 270 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,320 looking like as a product on a table? 271 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:05,560 And from that perspective, there are a lot of decisions to be 272 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:09,520 made. So it's going to mean everything 273 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,720 from could you do this with less components to are you choosing 274 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:14,800 cardboard? Are you choosing wood? 275 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,440 Are you choosing plastics? How big is the box going to be? 276 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,520 How what type of insert are you using? 277 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,480 How big is that insert on what material is it made out of? 278 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,720 There's so many different aspects that are going to go 279 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:31,360 into that production decision. And that is a relationship 280 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:37,360 between the manufacturer to be informing those decisions like 281 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:43,440 what is actually possible. And it's also a responsibility 282 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,520 of the publisher to ask those questions of what can you make 283 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,320 this out of. One of the things I think that a 284 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:53,240 lot of consumers don't know is that because a lot of the, a lot 285 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,880 of the board games are made in China, which we can get into, 286 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,320 you know why that is and, and, and how we can, how we can, if 287 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:00,760 we can get around that and all of that. 288 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:02,800 That's been a big topic of discussion, especially since 289 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,760 tariffs began. But what often ends up happening 290 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,600 when you names are not made in the same country where you are 291 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,280 is that there's either a language barrier or just a 292 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,800 general communication gap of it's not like we get to go to 293 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,120 that facility and actually look through all the materials. 294 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:21,520 They'll send us sample packs, but we don't always know 295 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,200 everything that a manufacturer can do and can offer. 296 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,680 And it's usually not in a manufacturer's best interest to 297 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,640 actually list all those things because it's a lot of work. 298 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,880 And the likely thing is that you're going to say, I want all 299 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:38,160 the standard stuff, basically. And so it's a waste of their 300 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,120 time. And so we get in this kind of 301 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,800 weird dance where the manufacturer says what do you 302 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,560 want? And then you just list all the 303 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,240 things that are that are generally standard usually or 304 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,080 you come up with a really interesting or visual solution 305 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,400 for something in your game and you tell the manufacturer what 306 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,760 you want. They are not usually saying here 307 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,240 is everything that we have to offer. 308 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:03,440 They're usually saying what do you want? 309 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,160 And then you don't know to ask for the things that they've 310 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:12,280 innovative for sustainability or that they could offer like the 311 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,560 vast majority of we, we quoted with, you know, half dozen 312 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,880 manufacturers, not a single one of them ever volunteered to tell 313 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,320 us that they had FSC mixed recycled paper. 314 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,000 Not one. They all had it, but they didn't 315 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:27,960 tell us. And so how would you know, how 316 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,600 would we make that decision if we weren't forward thinking 317 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,640 about it? And so that's that's the thing 318 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,480 that I think a lot of customers don't know how much of A black 319 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,600 box that sometimes is for us as publishers. 320 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,200 And so it now requires publishers to be more forthright 321 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,000 asking what's available. It requires manufacturers to be 322 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:48,320 more forthright with what they have. 323 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,080 And then, and that's part of what our our job is with 324 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,080 sustainability is to let people know that they can be asking 325 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:55,320 these questions and that they should be. 326 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,280 Right. So let me, let me ask because 327 00:16:58,280 --> 00:16:59,600 you kind of mentioned it for a minute. 328 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,680 So I think no matter where you are on the wherever you stand on 329 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,920 tariffs, like your personal opinion, I think, I think based 330 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,040 on my, I mean, I am a historian and an archivist. 331 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,319 So I think I can unpack what's going on. 332 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,839 The end goal of the current administration with tariffs 333 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,440 motivated in bringing manufacturing to the US, right? 334 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,079 Yes. So let's talk. 335 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,079 About. Yeah, right. 336 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,040 Presumably. How realistic is that not? 337 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,120 For us, yeah. So I, the way that I, the way 338 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:38,280 that I liken it, the, the expense difference between the 339 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:44,520 US and China is so big that the US makes sense for certain types 340 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:45,960 of products. Like if you're just doing a pack 341 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,240 of cards, that's a great product for the United States. 342 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,200 But for anything that's more complex than that, it can often 343 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:53,960 be very challenging to do it in the US. 344 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,840 And now that's, I know, I know some incredible US manufacturers 345 00:17:57,960 --> 00:17:59,880 that people should talk to you if they're interested in making 346 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:00,920 things local. And there are some great 347 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,680 benefits to making things in the US, including that, you know, 348 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,440 you don't have all of that great time, you know, things on this 349 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,520 on the seas and you don't have to worry about imports. 350 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,680 And there's definitely a lot that makes it worthwhile. 351 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,640 However, I would, I would liken it to saying, you know, you 352 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,120 could make cars in Detroit or you could make cars in 353 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:22,400 Manhattan. And is it really worth trying to 354 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,000 bring car manufacturing back to Manhattan? 355 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,440 Like Manhattan's cost of living is so high that you would have 356 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,480 to pay those workers just for them to have an even keel with 357 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,800 the people in Detroit on in terms of living wage. 358 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,080 You would have to pay them so astronomically much and then you 359 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:41,560 wouldn't have as much space and all that. 360 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,120 I would say that in some ways the, you know, abroad versus the 361 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:50,640 United States issue is a little bit like that one where our cost 362 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:55,120 of living here is just so high that you know what a worker in 363 00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:58,000 another country will be paid to make your game. 364 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,280 It might seem like a very, it's a very front subject for sure. 365 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,960 But often if you were to bring that back to the United States, 366 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,360 the worker in the United States is going to have a lower quality 367 00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:08,880 of life. It's going to have a harder time 368 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,720 affording basic necessities on that kind of salary then the 369 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,160 worker who is in China or Indonesia. 370 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,000 And so it's just, it just requires so much more. 371 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,480 And in order to be even close to competitive on cost, sometimes 372 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,040 it means that those workers are getting paid less relative to 373 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,280 their needs. So yeah, it's it's it's a 374 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,520 difficult issue. And you know, from an economics 375 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,600 perspective, I'm not qualified to really speak to, but yeah, 376 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,840 that's that's one of the issues that we really see with it. 377 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:40,960 That's another expert I'm looking for. 378 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,400 I need an economic economist to come on the show right like. 379 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,080 Yeah, well, I mean, good luck. You're going to have to. 380 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,240 You can find competing economists who have different 381 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,120 opinions on this. It's, it's very true, very true. 382 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,960 I mean, I, I studied ancient history in Graduate School, so I 383 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,840 don't know anything about modern economic, I mean, a little bit 384 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,320 as a consumer, but beyond that I don't know. 385 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,880 So the other thing you touched on was there were things that 386 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,360 designers can do. To incorporate or be more 387 00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:12,560 sustainable, promote sustainability. 388 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,160 I'm wondering if you could talk about that from the designer 389 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,800 standpoint for a minute. Yeah. 390 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,800 So the designers role is I, I kind of view it as twofold. 391 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:26,080 So the first is designing in the 1st place, thinking about that 392 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,040 sustainability. So what that's going to mean is 393 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,040 thinking about how many cards you're using, like how many 394 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:33,840 different sizes of cards you need. 395 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,600 There's all kinds of, I would say this is very similar in 396 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,400 Hollywood, right? A lot of scriptwriters want to 397 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,200 be able to have more control of how how a movie is directed. 398 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,800 And the way that they can do that is by, you know, like ties 399 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,440 within the script or descriptive screen descriptions within that 400 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:55,440 script that are going to guide the director is very similar. 401 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,720 You, you are creating the content, you're the designer. 402 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,200 If you show them a prototype that's small, that's in a small 403 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,120 box that has fewer components, all of that stuff is going to 404 00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:11,920 hide the initial thoughts for the publisher of of what they're 405 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,160 going to end up doing with the the product layout, the 406 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:16,640 production, all that kind of stuff. 407 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,080 Even even if that weren't guiding them like a lot of right 408 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,720 now, a lot of publishers really want to have a smaller game 409 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:25,720 because they're they're a little bit higher. 410 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,560 You get higher return on investment or easier to sell. 411 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,240 People are buying smaller games right now. 412 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,000 So. But even if that weren't the 413 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,960 case, you can think about things like, you know, am I using all 414 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,640 the cards that fit on a sheet? There are standard sheet sizes, 415 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,240 there are standard card sizes. All of those things actually 416 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,680 make your game more sustainable. Using standard box sizes, 417 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,000 standard card sizes, all that consistent card sizes, not 418 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,800 having like 4 different sizes of card within a game. 419 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,120 Those are those are things that make it more sustainable to 420 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,440 having your initial product be basically a instead of, instead 421 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,800 of a bunch of plastic miniatures, having it be, you 422 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,520 know, standees or tokens that represent your characters. 423 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,560 Then that can be another way that you kind of like prime the 424 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,360 thinking for the publisher in terms of what they're, what 425 00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:11,440 they're going to think this product should look like in the 426 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:12,520 end. Yeah. 427 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,960 The two challenges that that you have 1 is how do you use 428 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,560 components when you're first designing, But the second one is 429 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:22,400 how do you influence the publisher. 430 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,120 There are there are designers who have the clouds to influence 431 00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:29,880 the publisher more overtly, who have enough behind their name 432 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,960 that they can say, I want this to be, I'm only going to sign 433 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,240 this contract if you're going to promise sustainable production. 434 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,760 That's a rarer and most probably most designers don't have the 435 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:47,040 comfort level to, to make that depth. 436 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,160 And so we don't really, we don't really pressure designers to do 437 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,480 that kind of thing, but they can open that conversation with 438 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,440 publishers. I would love if you could, if 439 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,320 this game could be, you know, no plastics or mostly sustainable 440 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:00,880 and things like that. And there are publishers who are 441 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,760 receptive to that kind of conversation. 442 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,000 They they might not go with it. And usually publishers don't 443 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,520 have to go with anything that the that the designer 444 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,680 specifically wants. Right, So what about? 445 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,760 I know it. So in my professional world, in 446 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:20,000 the archives, digitization is a huge topic and requires more 447 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,560 work than people actually realize. 448 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,560 You can't just digitize it. However, there's been a lot of 449 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:30,000 talk around Tabletop Simulator as an alternative to physical 450 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,360 prototypes. Yeah, I'm. 451 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,920 What's your take? Line, that's what we do. 452 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,160 We do 100% Tabletop simulator for our prototyping. 453 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:39,800 Yeah. It's. 454 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,560 It's. Hard as a It's really hard as a 455 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,320 as a play tester, I want the prototype right and I'm kind of 456 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,680 resistant to Tabletop Simulator, but. 457 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,120 Yeah, and you know, we talk about that all the time do my 458 00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:56,160 husband does all of his first iterations in Tabletop Simulator 459 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,760 and it's so fast like that. The iteration process is so 460 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,720 quick, so easy, you can get up and playing in no time. 461 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,040 And so there's such a huge benefit for play testing at that 462 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,080 stage. However, not having things 463 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,440 physically in front of you is is also a big impediment. 464 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,080 It's more finicky. You're more likely to feel like 465 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,440 picking up a card and looking at it feels so intuitive when 466 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,240 you're at a table and when you are, you know, having to 467 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,880 remember your key vines and stuff like that for her tabletop 468 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,840 ceiling, it's a very different feel, you know, And so we do 469 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,040 find, you know, it does impede play testing a lot of the time. 470 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,960 And then once we actually get our first physical copies, you 471 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,320 know, we had something where we have a really cool poker variant 472 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,400 game that we're working on now, and we had it online and you're 473 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,120 like, OK, yeah, we'll play test. We'll play test. 474 00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:45,640 And then when the moment we got our first physical coffee, it 475 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,080 was like, what a breath of fresh air to have something you can 476 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,800 actually play with. Now we'll, you know, like, like 477 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,560 tape over things on a physical topic. 478 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,160 Yeah. You know, write them on stuff 479 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:57,320 like that. And that's one of the ways, you 480 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,880 know, you don't reprint it every single time you make a change. 481 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,640 Absolutely not. So let's the feedback that you 482 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,760 get during the play test process, play testing process, 483 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,080 right. How much does it change from 484 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,720 digital on Tabletop Simulator versus once you get play testers 485 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,320 who have a physical, how much does the feedback, is it more 486 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,120 constructive? Is it about the same? 487 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,680 I would say I don't know this. It's specifically the feedback. 488 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:30,760 It's more like how likely are you to have a good how much is 489 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,560 their friction in the way of getting accurate feedback, 490 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,360 right? Like if you are going to play on 491 00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:39,520 Tabletop Simulator, there's all of this friction to, you know, 492 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,880 if you have downtime, people are at different computers in 493 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,960 different rooms, sometimes in different states or countries 494 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,360 when they're play testing together. 495 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:47,760 And if somebody's doing something, maybe some person 496 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,720 like is on their phone, you won't even notice that they're 497 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,400 on their phone because they're in a different place. 498 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,200 Like when you're at a table, you're not going to be on your 499 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,560 phone. What about if people don't 500 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,760 actually understand the, you know, they have to be reminded 501 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,160 about how to search through the deck or something. 502 00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:05,160 There's all of these little extra friction steps that make 503 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,000 it. I would say it's the same as 504 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,200 having a product before there's any UI or user experience design 505 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,840 to it, before there's art. People more easily forget what 506 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,000 card is what, which and you know, they don't have any 507 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,400 symbols to base anything off of. And so they, you know, don't 508 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,640 have the quick intuition. And that's why we try to get 509 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,680 symbols and art into our prototypes as fast as possible 510 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,440 because we really believe that it's, you can't get accurate 511 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,960 feedback back without people having some extra layers on 512 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:39,400 which to understand their hearts and remember them and what they 513 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:40,800 do. And so I would say it's very 514 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,600 similar with tabletop simulators. 515 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,080 It just feels like an extra barrier in the way. 516 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,120 But that said, we use it all the time, all the time. 517 00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,360 And it's incredibly important for for our process at least. 518 00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:55,800 So with the use of iconography and glossaries or whatever we 519 00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:01,240 call it legends for the icons, I'm wondering about is there or 520 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,800 have you noticed a relationship between designing a language 521 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,880 independent game and sustainability? 522 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,880 Like to design A game that's language independent seems like 523 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,560 from my point of view that it would would be more likely to be 524 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,280 sustainable. It is the the difference. 525 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,360 There's there's a few main things that are going to 526 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:27,960 contribute to that difference. It's not, it's not necessarily a 527 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,520 huge difference. OK. 528 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,320 So the first thing is that you'll, you'll sometimes buy 529 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,440 games where they'll have multiple manuals in the box with 530 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,600 different languages that that does contribute to more 531 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,160 material, right? And that's, and that's pure 532 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,240 waste because that material is only you're only usually use one 533 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,520 of those languages. We got a box the other day that 534 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,440 was. Tossed the rest of them. 535 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,200 Six or seven different manuals in it for all different 536 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:52,800 languages. And I was like, I've never seen 537 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,600 this before. But then they, you know, then 538 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,600 they don't have to worry about, they can print a enormous amount 539 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,680 of copies at once. That saves them, you know, money 540 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,720 and they they can produce massive quantities. 541 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,280 They get financial benefits for printing large quantities at a 542 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,120 time. And so I understand why people 543 00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:09,640 do it. Language independence definitely 544 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:10,960 helps. However, the manual still is 545 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,640 always going to be in, you know, that language. 546 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,320 And so in a weird way, the ones that are where their components 547 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,960 are language independent, but their rules aren't, they're more 548 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,240 likely to do that like print the rules in every language kind of 549 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,240 a thing. But the other place where we see 550 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:33,640 language variations be an issue is in when you're actually 551 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,640 printing. When people actually print, you 552 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:41,040 know, cards and manuals and everything there are they're 553 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:47,000 actual presses that they have to create for each language for 554 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,240 each. They're called plates, printing 555 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:51,920 plates. They have to create for every 556 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,600 single language for every every edition of the game. 557 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,840 And so we have plates that are for the English language version 558 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,680 of Mantis Falls, and they can reuse those. 559 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,680 They made them once, they can reuse them every time, as long 560 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,880 as we don't change anything about what's on it, right? 561 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:07,880 And so as long as we keep everything consistent, no new 562 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,000 plates, which is wonderful, but every time we change language, 563 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,200 they have to change the plates. They have to create new plates 564 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,200 for every new language. And if we switch to a different 565 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,320 manufacturer, we have to create all new plates. 566 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,160 And so that that plate creation is, you know, a part of that 567 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,680 waste process because those plates get stored away. 568 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,280 But eventually they'll, you know, no longer be used sometime 569 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,160 in the future when people don't buy this game anymore. 570 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,880 And that's, I would say, I would say it's a small amount of waste 571 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,920 though compared to what we're seeing in, you know, large 572 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,200 plastic miniatures and, you know, oversized boxes and that 573 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:48,520 kind of stuff. Has there been any conversations 574 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:54,200 either with the committee that you're on with Gamma or any 575 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:55,600 other efforts that you're working on? 576 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,000 Has there been any other conversations about foregoing 577 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:04,840 including rule books all together in favor of AQR code or 578 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:10,800 some other link to a digital or mobile version of the rule book? 579 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,160 Yeah, You know, I, I haven't heard those conversations 580 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,320 within, within the Gamma sustainability committee nor the 581 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,040 green gains guy. Those might have happened when I 582 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,960 wasn't there that I've been, I haven't been on the green, green 583 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,200 game, green gains guy for very long. 584 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,280 But I have had those conversations with my husband 585 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,480 and we have unanimously agreed that people would hate that. 586 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,640 You know, one of the great things about a game is that you 587 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,680 can take it and bring it to a place like, you know, off grid. 588 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,240 You don't need your phones. When you do pull out phones, 589 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,360 people tend to get distracted by other things. 590 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,920 And so there's this kind of beauty and the fact that people 591 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,120 could actually just like throw their phone out a window for a 592 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,120 little while, open this thing, and then just, you know, learn 593 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,440 an analog way. And again, I mean, the rule book 594 00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:00,320 itself that the paper is so small on the scale of waste that 595 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,480 we're, that we're thinking about like, you know, the amount of 596 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,160 junk mail that you get in the mail is going to be more than 597 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,960 that paper. That's not usually where I'm 598 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,200 most worried about that the impact that we're making. 599 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,960 And also those are some of the most recycled components is, you 600 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,800 know, paper boxes, cards, people are better about handling paper 601 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,320 than almost any other material out there. 602 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,440 It's where it's where we can start making really serious 603 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,480 changes to either the quality of the paper, the sourcing for the 604 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,760 paper, and then the other components. 605 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,840 Really like how many plastic bags do you really need in your 606 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,840 game to store stuff? How many? 607 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,800 The answer is 00 you guys. You do not need plastic bags to 608 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,840 store things. We've been gaming for 30 years. 609 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,480 I have I have an entire shelf of bags above my head. 610 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,680 I don't need any more. And what we're generally seeing 611 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,680 too is there's a there's a funny thing like we, I think it's 612 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,960 this, we didn't know how much consumers actually wanted this 613 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,840 stuff. So Atlas Games, that makes 614 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,200 Gloom, they're one of their biggest. 615 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,800 So they have a sort of supplementary business called 616 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:12,160 Replay Workshop, in which they take the old sprues from, you 617 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,400 know, pop out plastic miniatures and recycle them into components 618 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,760 terrains, you know, all kinds of stuff like that. 619 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:24,200 And they are trying to collect sprues from, for example, local 620 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,640 retailers. And so we set up this program 621 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,680 with one of the retailers that's on the sustainability committee, 622 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,320 Total Escape Games in Colorado. And Jason set up this, this 623 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,160 sprue recycling thing. And the moment that he got it 624 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,640 out there, the amount of people who had been hoarding their 625 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,400 screws in their home and being like, someday someone's going to 626 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,080 figure out what to do with this. And then, you know, they, they 627 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,320 open this and then instantly it was full. 628 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,400 All of these people had been waiting for this solution 629 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,560 without even really telling anyone about it, without even 630 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,800 like talking about it because they felt guilty without 631 00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:58,880 throwing this stuff in the trash. 632 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,080 And as you know, as we we should, we should be figuring 633 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:03,400 out better things to do with them. 634 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,960 But I think we're learning that customers want this. 635 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,800 They want solutions. They don't want to feel like 636 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,760 they're being wasteful when they buy games. 637 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,560 Right. So where is the, the, the number 638 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:20,240 one pain point, if you can call it that for, for everything 639 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,480 we're talking about like plastics, plastics. 640 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,600 Plastics getting plastics out of games. 641 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:30,400 Yeah, So what that generally I can tell you the kind of easiest 642 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,600 ways. So plastic bags, getting plastic 643 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,680 bags out of there. The actual like true best, 644 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:41,880 easiest is the plastic wrapping that comes around cards, that 645 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,240 cellophane wrap that comes around cards. 646 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,480 People hate tearing that off. They don't want to feel their 647 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,760 fingernails go against the cards. 648 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,240 Sometimes it doesn't come off easily, and then they worry that 649 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:51,560 they're going to damage the cards. 650 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,880 And almost all of the manufacturers that I have spoken 651 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,960 to had the capacity to either do paper bans or full paper wrap, 652 00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:02,040 like a gift wrap type thing of the cards. 653 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,320 And generally speaking, it's the same price for for us as 654 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:08,440 publishers. Yeah. 655 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:11,560 And this is one of the things we're like, when we did this, we 656 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,800 transitioned our cards from plastic wrapped to paper 657 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,080 wrapped. It's been great. 658 00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:17,360 People like unwrapping those so much. 659 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:18,679 It's more like opening a gift, right? 660 00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:21,159 It comes off nice and easy and then you get to recycle it and 661 00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:23,040 that's it. Just feels better overall. 662 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,120 And it looks really nice too. It does. 663 00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:28,840 It's so much cleaner, yeah. Yeah. 664 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,679 So we know that this is a this is a viable solution, It's a 665 00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:37,400 reasonably priced solution and all these places have the 666 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,920 facility to do this. So why aren't we doing this all 667 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,600 the time? The games are already protected. 668 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,159 They usually have plastic wrap on the outside. 669 00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:47,000 And that's one of the few places where we're still trying to 670 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,080 understand like we want to get people away from plastic 671 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,000 wrapping the outside, But it does become an issue of are we 672 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,480 risking damage to the whole game, which is waste in a 673 00:34:55,480 --> 00:35:00,360 different direction, right. So, but on the inside, those 674 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:01,840 cards don't need to be plastic wrapped. 675 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,880 So, so that's when we're trying to get people to push towards. 676 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,200 There's actually a new initiative also that's coming 677 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,400 out of Europe starting at the end of next year. 678 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,920 That or the end of this year for bigger companies. 679 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,080 In the end of next year for smaller companies that people 680 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,560 are going to have to start getting prove that their paper 681 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,040 products are free of deforestation. 682 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,560 So they're, they're using responsible sustainable forestry 683 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,720 services where they're replacing trees that are get milled. 684 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,120 It's called the European Union Deforestation Regulation. 685 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,440 And they're actually, they're changing the laws very shortly. 686 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,800 And so all companies that are exporting into the EU or 687 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,120 bringing games into the EU are going to have to start complying 688 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:43,080 with this. So you're going to see the 689 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,880 industry start to move towards FSC paper across the board very 690 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,120 shortly. And not, and not necessarily 691 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,440 because everyone's choosing to, it's just because they have to. 692 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,920 So that, that one's a nice easy win for us because the European 693 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,240 Union's taking a lead on that and it's just basically making, 694 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,120 making people do it. But the places where we can 695 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,720 really make the biggest changes are getting out plastics in 696 00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:06,400 every in, in every form where we can find them, basically. 697 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:14,080 So are there any new or upcoming materials or innovations in 698 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,800 packaging that you're particularly excited about that 699 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,720 you're hoping will become more and more accessible? 700 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,960 Some of the things that we're talking about CGE started using 701 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:29,320 Rewood, which is a composite of sawdust and plastic that while 702 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,680 it itself, like if you were to put it into a waste stream, I'm 703 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,240 not entirely sure how each each different waste stream would 704 00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:39,000 actually treat that or because there is plastic inside, but 705 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,000 they are claiming at least that it's infinitely recyclable into 706 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,960 new components. And that's when we're where you 707 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,080 can actually do molded miniatures and things like that. 708 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,720 It certainly is and actually have a like literally right next 709 00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:53,520 door. So it's, we actually just got 710 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,800 this for the an upcoming talk that I'm doing, but you'll hear 711 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:01,040 the, the clacking around, but it's basically about 70% sawdust 712 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,480 with a binder material. And it's truly just like 713 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:10,640 moldable into miniatures, which is a solution that we need 714 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,280 because miniatures aren't going to be going away anytime soon. 715 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,400 No too much, too much of A demand for them. 716 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,720 So if we could find a way, it smells like a campfire. 717 00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:21,080 It's very nice if we could find a way to at least make them less 718 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,000 plastic consuming and an offshoot of a waste product, 719 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,400 which is the sawdust. And that's wonderful. 720 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,480 And that's certainly a positive direction for us to be going. 721 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:35,400 The company that makes that is a kisser in Germany, and they were 722 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,720 very gracious to send me this sample pack to be able to show 723 00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:40,320 off at the upcoming Game Manufacturer Tabletop Game 724 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,720 Association Expo. So that one's an interesting 725 00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:47,120 solution. We're looking at gift wrapping 726 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,760 machines, which would basically hopefully replace the plastic 727 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,560 wrap that goes around games. Your games would have a layer of 728 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,880 paper on the outside that would be the protected layer that 729 00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:59,320 would probably have some printing. 730 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,120 It would feel more like, you know, opening a present. 731 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,520 I talked with Jimmy Stegmeyer. He's working with Panda on that, 732 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,440 that we're talking with some of our manufacturing partners 733 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,280 within the Green Games guide about the feasibility. 734 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:14,200 It's it's not a commonly purchased your own piece of 735 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,120 equipment for game manufacturers right now. 736 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:21,720 But that's potentially where we see some options for the future 737 00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:27,600 for for sustainable box closures because right now we're having a 738 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,240 kind of a mixed issue of the plastic wraps very protective. 739 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,840 Right. But it's not sustainable. 740 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,760 The tabs, the plastic or or paper tabs that go around the 741 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,000 games, for one, sometimes they peel up, sometimes they take off 742 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,480 portions of the box. And customers pretty unanimously 743 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,240 do not like them. And sometimes retailers don't 744 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:48,680 either. Sometimes some of our retailer 745 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,400 members will complain that the the tabs are coming off of games 746 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,640 in the store, which looks very bad for them. 747 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,240 You. Know I've been to like, you 748 00:38:57,240 --> 00:38:59,480 know, Barnes and Noble and I'll see ones that have tabs on them 749 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,440 and they, you know, the, the box will be open and people will 750 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,360 have like rifled through the materials inside and that's, 751 00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:07,280 that's not a sellable game any longer. 752 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,480 So we're trying to come up with some good solutions for the 753 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,680 exterior. That's been a little bit of our 754 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,680 lower priority because there are so many easier targets to look 755 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,920 at for sustainability right now. Right. 756 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,680 Can you, can you talk a little bit about the actual committee's 757 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,040 role in everything we've just talked about? 758 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,080 Like, yeah, what? Because I'm pretty sure I don't 759 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,480 know a lot about the committee at all. 760 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,080 I don't know what it is that you do and how can you affect 761 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,160 change. Yeah. 762 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,120 Across the industry. So the first thing to say is 763 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:46,280 that Tabletop Game Association, which we call GAMMA, is a 764 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,840 industry group with membership including, you know, designers, 765 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:55,000 media publishers, events, runners, everybody within the 766 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,640 industry that's working in table top games has a, has a place 767 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,200 within that organization. It's a pretty, it's, it's one of 768 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,120 the most reasonable, honestly one of the most reasonable trade 769 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,680 organizations I've ever seen. It's like $300 a month a year 770 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:11,200 for, for membership. And that also gets you access to 771 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,000 their annual meetings. That would be the origins would 772 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,800 be one of them and Gamma Expo, which is coming up in a about a 773 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,880 week and 1/2 is the pretty pretty reasonable within that 774 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,080 structure of that organization. There are a lot of volunteers 775 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,360 like myself, the people who are members of the board who are 776 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,280 trying to support the industry with all kinds of initiatives. 777 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,720 These would be things like when the tariffs were growing up, 778 00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:40,200 there was lobbying groups when, but we're trying to figure out 779 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,280 how to get games into schools. There's an education committee 780 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,200 that's trying to help get educational games into schools 781 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,320 for children at a young age to begin playing games instead of 782 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,200 watching TV all the time. Yeah, absolutely. 783 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,600 We're going around social media and so we're finding all these 784 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,880 avenues where an organization like that can support not just 785 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,280 the game industry, but the game players better. 786 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,040 And so within that structure, there are committees and these 787 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,680 are usually kind of subordinate to the the main goals of the of 788 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:11,920 the organization. So there's also board members 789 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,520 and everything, but the committees will cover things 790 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:19,400 like making sure that we have appropriate DEI initiatives to 791 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:26,120 support an expansion of the, the industry to be inclusive of all 792 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,680 members would be, there's one committee, that's ADEI 793 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,240 committee. There's like ethics and media 794 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,400 making sure that people are, you know, people like yourself or 795 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,760 anybody else who's, you know, maybe reviewing games or talking 796 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,040 about games, that they're doing it in an ethical way. 797 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,600 And so there's all these different committees that are 798 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,000 focused on important topics within the industry. 799 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,040 So sustainability was a relatively new one and it was 800 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,880 initiated by Eric Price, who was at the time the the president of 801 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,360 Gamma and he was how I, I found this and got into it. 802 00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,000 And so I took over the role from him. 803 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,840 But our structure, we have members from several different 804 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,680 groups within Gamma. So that means we have 805 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,560 manufacturers who are members of that committee, which is very 806 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,240 impressive because they're of, of all the groups, they are 807 00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:12,840 probably the most likely to be competitive with each other if 808 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,920 you're only going to go to 1 manufacturer usually. 809 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,320 And so they usually don't want to share their trade secrets 810 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,080 with each other. But these, these particular 811 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:23,600 members of our committee are very much focused on the long 812 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,160 game, which I appreciate. They understand that this, this 813 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,560 all needs to change. We have publisher members, we 814 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,240 have retail members, we have some people who kind of 815 00:42:31,240 --> 00:42:34,240 crossover into events and all that. 816 00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:36,080 But right now we have basically 3 work groups. 817 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,720 We have the manufacturers who are hard at work helping to 818 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,360 figure out how to educate publishers about what is 819 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,320 possible, what materials can be used and should be used. 820 00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:49,720 OK. And also educate, inform the 821 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,320 upcoming criteria for the Green games guide, which is working on 822 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,400 a possible certification seal so that so that a person could flip 823 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,080 over a game and say, oh, this is a sustainable game because it 824 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,680 has the seal on it. And then what is what does that 825 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,960 actually mean? What's what's financially 826 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:06,840 feasible for someone to make a game sustainable? 827 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:08,800 Because we can go in a lot of directions of what's 828 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,040 scientifically sustainable, but then what's actually going to be 829 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,000 possible, right? So our manufacturers are working 830 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:16,720 on things like that. Our publishers are working on 831 00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:19,560 what kind of things should we be asking manufacturers? 832 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,080 And then on the other side, what kinds of things should we be 833 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,200 telling our customers about the materials that are in this game? 834 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,720 Like what's our responsibility to tell them this is recyclable, 835 00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:32,080 compostable, this is this type of material so you understand 836 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:33,720 how to handle it at its end of life. 837 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:39,880 We have a retailer that we're working with, Total Escape Games 838 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:45,640 is working with us on a display of sustainable and award-winning 839 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,360 games and we're trying to understand how we can 840 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,360 incentivize customers to see sustainable games and not just 841 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,800 think like this is good for the environment. 842 00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:01,320 That's I think people go into a different, less playful mindset 843 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,640 when they see sustainability. They're like reminded of the 844 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,160 real world and the sadnesses that exist there. 845 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:12,000 And so we want people to see sustainable and be excited to to 846 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,960 buy that game. And So what does that look like 847 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,880 for us? That meant reaching out to Matt 848 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,280 Lee Hawk, Elizabeth Hargrave, and getting quotes from them 849 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:24,960 about why they insist on making sustainable games, what their 850 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,280 goals are, so that they can basically be the direct 851 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,360 connection to the customer and say, like Elizabeth Hargrave 852 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,400 says this about sustainability. This is what she believes. 853 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:35,240 This is what she wants you to know. 854 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,520 Right. And then we're working with a 855 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:43,440 different retailer as the control group to that so that we 856 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:48,240 can get actual data-driven analysis of how games sell when 857 00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:50,440 they're marketed as a word, winning and sustainable. 858 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:55,000 So that we can pitch that to both other retailers to have a 859 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,400 display like that and to other publishers so that they're more 860 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,920 willing to make those kinds of changes to their game. 861 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,240 So we have a whole bunch of friends that we're working on at 862 00:45:04,240 --> 00:45:07,800 the same time within the committee, but it's been, it's 863 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,120 been great and we have some amazing members and 864 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:15,080 collaborators with this. So let's let's get let's get 865 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,200 down to the where the rubber meets the road, right? 866 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,680 Let's talk about the gamers, the consumers, those of us who 867 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,320 purchase the games and play the games, right? 868 00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:30,200 What can an everyday gamer do to support support? 869 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,160 Support is the word I was looking for guys. 870 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,480 What can we do to support sustainability? 871 00:45:35,720 --> 00:45:39,200 God, that's why I tremble all that s s in the hobby. 872 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:44,240 Yes. So a few different things, you 873 00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:47,120 know, some of them are easier, easier changes to make than 874 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,040 others. So that one of the easiest 875 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,680 changes that you can make that's, you know, easy, 876 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,400 depending on you as a person, be OK with errors. 877 00:45:56,240 --> 00:46:00,120 If, if something is slightly, slightly bent, torn, misshapen, 878 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,200 misprinted, you know, if you lose a piece or you, you know, 879 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,920 like be willing to replace that with something that you have at 880 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,240 home, be willing to make do with something being a little off, 881 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,160 asking for replacements, having to buy whole new games, having 882 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:15,560 to ship stuff all over the world. 883 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:20,000 Gamers tend to be a group that really like things just so you 884 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:21,320 know, they like things to be perfect. 885 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:27,040 And it's that collector mindset. However, that mindset comes at A 886 00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:30,720 at a cost. It means that publishers, when 887 00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:33,560 they make a game where there's like a little dent to the box, 888 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:38,480 they might lost that game, they might never let it see market 889 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,920 because they know the retailer's not gonna want to pick it up. 890 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,200 The consumer's not gonna pick it up. 891 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,840 And that's a huge waste stream already. 892 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:50,280 Or we get emails all the time from people who say, hey, I 893 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,240 broke off this tiny portion of this one. 894 00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:56,440 Wooden people. I live in the UK or Syria. 895 00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,040 We've had ones from Syria. But we're like, can you ship us 896 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,200 a new meatball? And I'm like the cost and the 897 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,760 lack of sustainability of doing something like that, like 898 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,480 something like that, you could get some wood glue, you could 899 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,480 put it back together. And that's, I mean, that's still 900 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:15,080 our responsibility as a business to support our customers no 901 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:16,760 matter what. But I would implore those 902 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:21,360 customers to be willing to see the uniqueness and originality 903 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,720 in something that's not quite perfect. 904 00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:25,680 The second thing I would say they, you know, treat your games 905 00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:28,360 very well, Make sure that they're they're not going to get 906 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:29,440 damaged. They're off the floor. 907 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,880 You don't have to worry about floods, humidity, all of that 908 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:33,240 kind of stuff. The longer it can last, the 909 00:47:33,240 --> 00:47:34,920 better this. So that's that's the one of the 910 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:39,160 best things that you can do. But also understand all of those 911 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,200 games are going to be waste someday. 912 00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,480 I think about the amount of games that you have that are 100 913 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,480 years old. In 100 years, nobody is probably 914 00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,000 going to own the games that are on your shelf. 915 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:52,680 Right. The plastics will have gotten 916 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,760 brittle. The printing may have faded. 917 00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,920 This printing is not necessarily meant to last over 100 years. 918 00:47:59,920 --> 00:48:02,240 And you know, when you print with archival inks, maybe you 919 00:48:02,240 --> 00:48:05,520 could do that. But these games, they will be 920 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:07,960 waste. And so own that, appreciate that 921 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,440 that's true. And think about when you discard 922 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:15,120 an old game, what are the correct places for that to go? 923 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:19,760 Think about looking for or asking for more sustainability 924 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,840 in your games. So reach out to publishers, talk 925 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,360 to them on their on their online channels and ask them to make 926 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,960 more sustainable changes. If you demand it, they will do 927 00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:31,080 it. They will have to. 928 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,080 What that generally looks like for you is reduce plastics and 929 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,120 games. It means FSC or, you know, 930 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:42,120 sustainably sourced paper, but it also means that certain types 931 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:48,160 of finishes are just are just out any of the like UV spot 932 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,760 stuff that you see where like if you turn from the right angle, 933 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,520 you can see the title of the game that's in like, you know, a 934 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,960 shinier font that makes the whole box unrecyclable. 935 00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,880 Unfortunately, that is a that is a rough one. 936 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:03,800 I know and it looks so beautiful it. 937 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:05,960 Does. Foil is better. 938 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,000 Foil actually does come off during the recycling process and 939 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,280 it's not a large portion of that waste. 940 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:16,560 And so it's still not perfect, but it is it is far better. 941 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:18,160 Soy based inks. You wouldn't necessarily know 942 00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:19,680 that soy or vegetable based inks. 943 00:49:19,720 --> 00:49:21,240 You wouldn't notice by looking at a game. 944 00:49:21,240 --> 00:49:24,360 But you can talk again, you can talk to these publishers on 945 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,800 their channels, ask these questions. 946 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,280 And the more you ask, the more they're forced to answer, the 947 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:31,920 more they're going to make these changes, right? 948 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:33,600 And it doesn't have to be an aggressive thing. 949 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:35,720 You don't have to like slam them through not being sustainable. 950 00:49:35,720 --> 00:49:39,120 People are making steps as they can and as the demand exists. 951 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:43,640 So really, really it's create the pressure from from the 952 00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,200 source. You are the source of their 953 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,600 business. If you put on the pressure and 954 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,240 ask them to be more sustainable, they will because they'll have 955 00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:51,840 no choice. It's. 956 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,040 It's interesting. I'm thinking about, I was just 957 00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,480 thinking about how so much you were saying really relates to my 958 00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:01,160 preferred professional world probably more than any episode 959 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,760 that I've done over the past four years, right. 960 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:10,360 So one of the things we do at work is that we recommend to all 961 00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:15,280 of our offices is that you keep all of your records, whether 962 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,920 that's paper records or a server. 963 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,520 If you have a local server, anything that's going to hold 964 00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:26,800 data a minimum of 6 inches off the ground right now that 965 00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:31,680 doesn't, it doesn't do very good for locations alike from where 966 00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:33,960 I'm originally from in Louisiana where you're going to have a 967 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:37,920 hurricane and a flood, which Speaking of everyone knows this 968 00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:39,720 story. The flood is so it brought me to 969 00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:43,920 Illinois. So 6 inches may not help but if 970 00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:48,400 you have a pipe burst or I'm sort of a plumbing leak you can 971 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:53,800 avoid mold and so many other factors that will break down 972 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,760 your games or anything in your house. 973 00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:58,080 Yeah. I mean, really, it's it's all 974 00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,080 about at that point, right? It's about everything, right? 975 00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,280 You don't want to waste anything if you can help it. 976 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:07,120 We actually, we had a flood. We had a flood here a few months 977 00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:08,480 ago. We're in North Carolina right 978 00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,920 now and the we had the, you know, the torrential rain that 979 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:15,320 came to North Carolina. So I'm in Chapel Hill and we had 980 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:20,400 about 6 inches and some of our games were saved like the ones 981 00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,240 the ones that were closer to the floor were saved by the fact 982 00:51:23,240 --> 00:51:24,800 that they had plastic wrap on them. 983 00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:26,880 That's what that's what we haven't gotten rid of yet. 984 00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,480 We have, we have paper on the inside, but we've been a little 985 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,080 bit hesitant and even even within the green games guide, 986 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,040 even within, you know, we, we've been talking about it as a one 987 00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,800 of the tougher issues to solve is what's on the exterior the 988 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,440 game to protect it, because it's not just that it's, it's 989 00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,160 humidity, it's what about them rubbing against each other? 990 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:49,560 And there's all kinds of types of damage that you can get when 991 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,440 you don't have a protective layer on the exterior. 992 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,560 So some of ours were saved and then, but a lot of our stuff, 993 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,200 you know, we had spare parts that got completely destroyed. 994 00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:01,160 And it was, we really worked to like, gosh, we have, we have 995 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,720 some fabrics in the game that we like put through the washing 996 00:52:03,720 --> 00:52:07,000 machine to see if we could, if we could salvage them, but 997 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:08,320 they're natural fabrics, they're cotton. 998 00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:10,240 So they all shrunk. And so I was like, well, shoot, 999 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,400 we're not going to, we're not going to be able to salvage 1000 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:12,920 those. Ones. 1001 00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,720 We tried very hard. People tend to forget, yes, OK, 1002 00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,640 there's if if you have a flood or some sort of a leak and your 1003 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,840 floor gets wet, yes, that water. But you, you said it yourself, 1004 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,680 humidity. Humidity is moisture. 1005 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,400 Moisture is water. Guys. 1006 00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:30,880 This stuff messes with everything. 1007 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,480 And to your point about plastics, think about all your 1008 00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,960 Legos that got discolored over time. 1009 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,640 All of this is impermanent, yeah. 1010 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:47,440 Plastics there, there's a, there's a sort of tangential 1011 00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,600 ideology that's like, why don't we just make our games out of 1012 00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:52,720 stone or plastic or whatever is going to last the longest, 1013 00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:54,400 right? Like the longer it can last, the 1014 00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,400 better. But I mean, think about all 1015 00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:02,760 those like, you know, door plastic play toys that you had 1016 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,200 when you were a kid, those they discolor, they become brittle. 1017 00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:10,120 And that's because plasticizers, plasticizer chemicals are added 1018 00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,160 to those plastics in order to keep them supple. 1019 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,040 They have to. They actually have to have some 1020 00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,160 elastic quality and not just fall apart. 1021 00:53:17,720 --> 00:53:19,800 Yes. With pressure. 1022 00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:23,600 And so when we add plasticizers, they eventually do evaporate 1023 00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:25,640 into the atmosphere, which is its own problem. 1024 00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:29,040 But now, now you have a product that's going to break down 1025 00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:31,000 easier and you're going to want to replace that. 1026 00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,040 You're going to want it to not look like that. 1027 00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:38,400 So I like to think about it as if you go to a great meal, a 1028 00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,040 fancy meal, you're getting like a filet mignon or something like 1029 00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,800 that. You enjoy the heck out of that 1030 00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:45,480 meal. You don't want to waste a single 1031 00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:47,880 bit of it, but you also understand that it is 1032 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:52,360 impermanent, that it is going back to the earth one day, and 1033 00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,560 it's the same with everything. Exactly. 1034 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,760 So the Green Games Guide, once the second edition is finalized 1035 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,720 and is published, who will have access to it? 1036 00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:04,680 Everybody. So the current in addition to 1037 00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,800 the Green Games guide is online. I think it's 1038 00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:08,800 greengamesguide.com. OK. 1039 00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:14,320 It's a excellent, beautifully designed PDF that is not not 1040 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:17,640 only technical but very visually endearing. 1041 00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,360 And they did a great job on that first edition of making it an 1042 00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:24,600 approachable, enjoyable document. 1043 00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,360 And this the second one, when it goes public, it will be, it will 1044 00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:31,120 be online available to anybody who wants to look at it. 1045 00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,840 And it is going to cover for those of you who are interested 1046 00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,040 to work consumers who are interested in what the 1047 00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,960 production looks like. It does give a little bit of a 1048 00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,360 extra glimpse into what are designers thinking about? 1049 00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:46,520 What are publishers thinking about? 1050 00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:49,280 What are we doing with all? Like when we, when we make a 1051 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:51,680 game, when you crowd fund a game and then you're like, and then a 1052 00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:56,240 year and a half later, I get it. What, what does all that time 1053 00:54:56,240 --> 00:54:58,320 include? What are you spending that time 1054 00:54:58,320 --> 00:54:59,800 on? It's a little bit of a glimpse 1055 00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:03,320 into the world of a designer and a publisher, but it all is also 1056 00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:06,200 customer facing. So it does have for every 1057 00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:08,040 section it says. What can customers do? 1058 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,160 That was going to be my follow up question is will it, will it 1059 00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:18,240 contain guidance for things and behaviors that we can change to 1060 00:55:18,240 --> 00:55:22,240 support sustainability, best practices on preserving and 1061 00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:24,680 maintaining our collections, things of that nature? 1062 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:26,920 Yeah, Yeah. I mean, one of the other I 1063 00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,400 mentioned before that the, you know, demanding different 1064 00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,080 materials of your publishers, we're putting pressure on them. 1065 00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,560 I would say one of the other big things that you can do as a, as 1066 00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:40,080 a gamer is be willing to have a smaller box game that costs 1067 00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:42,600 more. You know, like if you could take 1068 00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:45,800 Splendor, I think is the classic example of this. 1069 00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:48,920 If you could take Splendor and fit it into a much, much smaller 1070 00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,960 box, then great, right? You pay the same amount for that 1071 00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,320 game because it's all the same materials, but it has a way 1072 00:55:56,320 --> 00:56:00,800 lower footprint overall because now we're not shipping giant 1073 00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:05,240 containers of, you know, 1/4 as many games all around the world 1074 00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:06,920 and we're not creating as much box. 1075 00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:12,640 And so it the, the publisher won't necessarily make that box 1076 00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:16,120 smaller because they know that if they make a small box and 1077 00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:19,120 then they charge more for it or charge the same amount as a big 1078 00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,240 box, you're less likely to buy it. 1079 00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:23,560 And so look for density in your boxes. 1080 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,640 When you find games that are dense, appreciate them and 1081 00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,240 appreciate the publishers for doing that. 1082 00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:32,000 And when you find games that are not dense, point it out. 1083 00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:34,320 Tell the publisher that they need to make it a little bit 1084 00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,000 more dense, that they need to be better about not just filling 1085 00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:38,720 the whole box with air. It's going to be better for your 1086 00:56:38,720 --> 00:56:39,920 shelf. You're going to be able to keep 1087 00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:41,360 more games. It's going to be better for the 1088 00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,600 environment. It's a win for everybody. 1089 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:49,640 I think a perfect example of that, applying that pressure and 1090 00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:53,440 making positive change. I'm thinking about Flip 7 by the 1091 00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:56,880 OP. The orig The original It came in 1092 00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,040 a It went a huge box, but it was much bigger than. 1093 00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,080 It and they switched it. They switched it to that little 1094 00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:03,560 simple type box. Yeah. 1095 00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:06,120 Yes, they did. And then Type 7, we just got 1096 00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:10,600 flip seven with a vengeance from Walmart this weekend and it's 1097 00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:12,640 packed. Proper, proper, properly, 1098 00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:16,040 sustainably. If you're listening the OP, I 1099 00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:18,320 did not mean that, I meant sustainably. 1100 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:21,800 Yeah, Pat Marino is going to hear that one. 1101 00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:25,800 But you know, what's interesting is when we were playing, we 1102 00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,080 played both games like yesterday with our group, we were thinking 1103 00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:31,720 about sustainability. Immediately we were like, if we 1104 00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:36,000 get rid of that, that insert in the larger Flip 7 box, we can 1105 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,280 keep Flip 7 in it and we can take Flip seven with a vengeance 1106 00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,320 and just put it in there. Therefore, I'm still using the 1107 00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:43,520 box. I'm still using both. 1108 00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:47,040 Boxes well, and that's one of the things that I really like 1109 00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:48,560 about what actually Stillmeyer does. 1110 00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:54,080 So Jamie does all, I think, hopefully I'm quoting this 1111 00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:58,320 correctly, but I think Jamie does all expansions four games 1112 00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:02,040 in much, much tighter and more sustainable packaging that's 1113 00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:04,760 much more recyclable. Also, it's been the box. 1114 00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:09,360 The actual box is a very clearly not a keepsake box, right? 1115 00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,320 Like it's, it's just like a little like literature Mailer 1116 00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,000 kind of a kind of a deal because he knows you're going to take 1117 00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,040 that stuff and put it into your full box. 1118 00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:20,560 And so there's room in the full box for the expansions, which is 1119 00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:25,320 another thing that's a little bit of a like it's good and it's 1120 00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,160 bad, right? Like you, you don't want to just 1121 00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:28,760 have an empty air in box for no reason. 1122 00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:30,600 But at the same time, you want to be able to support people 1123 00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:34,080 putting an expansion in. But he knows that there's people 1124 00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:35,400 who are going to put that expansion in. 1125 00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:40,560 And so we make sure that the expansion box is intended for 1126 00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,480 recycling and, and that's something that's something that 1127 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,840 I really appreciate. It doesn't have lots of extra 1128 00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:47,760 printing on the outside. It doesn't have lots of layers 1129 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:49,360 of, of inks and everything like that. 1130 00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,200 And you'll see that when you look at expansions in the store. 1131 00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,400 Yeah, having space for people to be able to include sleeves if 1132 00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:56,400 they're going to include sleeves. 1133 00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:57,760 Now, sleeves are their own issues. 1134 00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:00,480 But if they're going to include sleeves that they have space 1135 00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:02,440 for, if they're going to include, you know, expansions, 1136 00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,360 that's totally understandable. That does not mean that you're 1137 00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:08,320 irresponsibly adding tons of air. 1138 00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:12,800 You'll know the people who are adding tons of air for no reason 1139 00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:14,880 just to make their box bigger. You'll see them. 1140 00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,960 That's right. So my, my last question is, is 1141 00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:24,960 there either a game or a publishing company or anything 1142 00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,760 like that? A perfect example of this is a 1143 00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:33,240 game that take it executes on all levels and is completely 1144 00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:34,920 sustainable. Maybe not 100%. 1145 00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:35,720 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 1146 00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:39,240 You'll like this game is Perfect or this company. 1147 00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,560 I'm not going to, I'm not going to do justice to all the people 1148 00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:44,880 who have done this because there are. 1149 00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,680 So the, the problem is there are tons of people who have made 1150 00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:50,400 incredibly sustainable games that didn't get as much 1151 00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,320 attention or get as much, you know, visibility as the ones 1152 00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,160 that are like, you know, award winners or big EUR and things 1153 00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:58,800 like that, right. So the ones, the ones that I'm 1154 00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:05,800 high level aware of are some of the ones who have been. 1155 01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:11,160 Award-winning and also have won the sustainability award so 1156 01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:14,600 green games guide votes every year on a sustainability award. 1157 01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:18,560 So the three the three that always come to mind the two who 1158 01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:20,680 won the last few years of sustainability award. 1159 01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:29,840 So Earthworn Rangers is a won the first sustainability award 1160 01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,320 and that is a very highly sustainable game. 1161 01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:33,800 They even did regional manufacturing. 1162 01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:37,800 I mean just and actually Andrew Navarro who created that game is 1163 01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,960 on this committee with me and he's one of our most diligent 1164 01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:45,800 members, which I love and his his American manufacturer Nick 1165 01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:48,720 Haas is from Delano Games is also on the committee with me. 1166 01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:51,600 So those are great folks who I know care a lot about 1167 01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:54,880 sustainability because they put in a lot of volunteer hours 1168 01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:58,160 outside of just even even the stuff that makes the money on on 1169 01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:01,240 this front. So that's amazing Then there is 1170 01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,680 Endeavor Deep Sea was the was the winner this year for 1171 01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:11,840 sustainability. They did their inserts are made 1172 01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:15,960 out of like a pressed the gas, like a waste product from sugar 1173 01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:20,960 cane pulp manufacturing. And so, and you know, did like, 1174 01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,880 I think initially did biodegradable bags, but 1175 01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,480 biodegradable bags can sometimes breakdown over time. 1176 01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,120 That was one that both Helena from Ver Island and and then 1177 01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:32,720 also Jamie Stigmire both said that they moved away from those 1178 01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:36,040 and just because they they do tear apart very easily, they're 1179 01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:37,840 not, they're not a long term product. 1180 01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,800 And that's, you know, it's not just about the footprint, it's 1181 01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:42,840 about making sure it's something that's actually going to serve 1182 01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:45,600 the product properly. So it's good that it's good that 1183 01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:50,320 we're figuring those things out. And then the other one that I 1184 01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:54,840 would say is CMYK made Daybreak. And that's that's another great 1185 01:01:54,840 --> 01:02:00,360 example where I believe Matt Lecock made a pressed for 1186 01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:03,800 sustainable production and that was a beautiful sustainable 1187 01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:07,480 game. And I would say in general, my 1188 01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:09,640 feeling, this is what something Andrew and I have talked about a 1189 01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:13,560 lot, what we would really like to see is that the sustainable 1190 01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:16,600 games are not just the ones that are about environmentalism, like 1191 01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,200 our game's about the mob. You know, we're not, we're, it's 1192 01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:22,160 not, not at all sustainability. Earthworn Rangers is not 1193 01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:24,040 particularly about sustainability either. 1194 01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:26,880 What we generally see is a lot of people make very sustainable 1195 01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,840 decisions for games that are about sustainability, right? 1196 01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:32,960 Because they know that the people who are interested in 1197 01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:35,560 those topics, who are buying those themes are also interested 1198 01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:37,920 in sustainability. But what I want to see is people 1199 01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:41,240 making those decisions regardless of the theme of the 1200 01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:45,080 game. OK, that's great. 1201 01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:49,920 That's that's good. So making a game that's good for 1202 01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:52,120 the environment even though the game has nothing to do. 1203 01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:55,080 Yes, yeah. Where where you don't get to 1204 01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:56,800 have the audience pat you on the back. 1205 01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:58,840 So the fact that you made it sustainable and everything, 1206 01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:01,360 you're doing it because it's the right thing to do. 1207 01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:05,400 So my last question, there is no wrong answer. 1208 01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:13,720 Let's talk about the board game insert industry. 1209 01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:17,400 OK, yeah, there are game trays and such. 1210 01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:20,680 There are lots of options. I was thinking folded space but 1211 01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:22,840 OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1212 01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:27,360 So that the aftermarket insert industry is the thought. 1213 01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:31,160 OK, OK. Yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1214 01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:34,960 that's that's so you have a preference and not saying I like 1215 01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,960 folder space over, but you have a preference like because you 1216 01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:41,840 know folder space uses foam and then you've got you've got 1217 01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:46,840 several you've got several that do wood, right, game trays uses 1218 01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:48,080 plastic. What are your? 1219 01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:49,880 Thoughts. I understand that people really 1220 01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:53,200 like the like efficiency and organizational structure. 1221 01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:56,240 We have family members who get really into the like 3D printing 1222 01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:59,840 the inserts and everything. So it's perfect organization. 1223 01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:03,640 I personally am willing to sacrifice perfect organization 1224 01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:07,440 to not have extra stuff. So personally, like my own 1225 01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,800 preference, I would never go for any organization structure at 1226 01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:13,160 all, regardless of what it's made out of because I already 1227 01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:16,080 have whatever the manufacturer provided and that's I'm just 1228 01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:19,800 going to make do with whatever that is instead of owning more 1229 01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:21,680 stuff. But if I were to make a 1230 01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:24,160 recommendation, I would say wood paper. 1231 01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:26,320 Those are going to be your better materials across the 1232 01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:29,640 board, even be like we would call it bioplastics or something 1233 01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:33,840 like corn based plastic or the pressed, the Goss, that kind of 1234 01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,840 thing. Probably less are less great for 1235 01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:43,760 the environment in the long run than the wood and for and for 1236 01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,440 some reasons that that are unfortunate. 1237 01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:49,520 One common thing that happens is, and this is when I worked in 1238 01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:51,520 a different industry, when I worked in the coffee industry, 1239 01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:54,440 we were always moving towards compostables and all that and it 1240 01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:58,920 included plant based plastics. One of the problems is that 1241 01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:02,040 people tend to recycle plant based plastics and they can't be 1242 01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:03,920 recycled and they mess with the recycling system. 1243 01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:06,360 They reduce the efficiency of plastic recycling. 1244 01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:10,800 And now you've got a different weird problem of people putting 1245 01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:13,600 something that's meant to be composted into something that's 1246 01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,000 recyclable. It just it screws it. 1247 01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:17,960 It's a human behavior issue, right? 1248 01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:21,480 A user experience issue, but it's but it does screw up with 1249 01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:22,760 it the systems that we have in place. 1250 01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:26,480 So I would say people know how to handle wood and they know how 1251 01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:30,600 to handle paper. And so that's a really reliable 1252 01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:33,720 way to store stuff. I love when people do paper 1253 01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:37,400 inserts, just folded cardboard or folded paper. 1254 01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:42,480 That's a really low tech. And I know people like their 1255 01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:46,320 fancy inserts and everything, but it's a it's a standby and 1256 01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:49,280 it's reliable for a reason. You're going to know exactly how 1257 01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:50,800 to take care of that at the end of its life. 1258 01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:56,160 True. So the number one obstacle that 1259 01:05:56,160 --> 01:06:02,000 is preventing us from going to a 0 carbon footprint to being 100% 1260 01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,320 sustainable is US. It is, yeah. 1261 01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:08,040 I mean, anything you're producing, the moment you 1262 01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:10,120 produce a thing, it's not going to be 0, right. 1263 01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:12,720 We, we technically pay, we pay offsets. 1264 01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:16,600 And by the way, the vast majority, I, I can't say like 1265 01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:20,240 I'm not a perfect scientist on this, but the vast majority of, 1266 01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:23,600 of like carbon neutral carbon offsets are a complete scam. 1267 01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:26,000 Anything that's saying they're planting trees or they're saving 1268 01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:28,680 forests or anything like that, you run away from those. 1269 01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:32,720 Those are scams are we do pay carbon offsets. 1270 01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:38,600 We pay, I want to say approximately $0.50 per game, 1271 01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:41,080 something along those lines. And what that goes towards is 1272 01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:45,480 solar stoves for developing nations, so places where they 1273 01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,880 would normally burn biomass in order to cook at home. 1274 01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:51,000 It does a couple of things. It means we're not burning a 1275 01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:53,240 bunch of stuff to put into the atmosphere, but it also means 1276 01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:56,240 that people in low income areas who couldn't possibly afford to 1277 01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:59,720 make that transition are now not only getting something like 1278 01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:03,560 solar stoves to be able to improve the footprint, their 1279 01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:06,920 footprint, but they are also inhaling less pollution in their 1280 01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:10,000 own homes, which is better for usually the environmental, 1281 01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:12,920 environmentally sustainable solution is also the one that is 1282 01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:16,480 good for people, that's ethical for citizens of a nation. 1283 01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:20,320 And so we do that and we have to fund some plastic cleanups from 1284 01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:24,080 beaches and things like that. That's what our our money for 1285 01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:27,560 carbon neutrality goes towards. And as far as I can tell, of all 1286 01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:30,000 the rating schemes that they have out there for what counts 1287 01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:33,360 as good carbon offsetting, that's one of the best. 1288 01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:37,120 But we've also as an industry, we've very thoroughly understood 1289 01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:40,000 that just being like, I'm going to make a bunch of plastic and 1290 01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:42,880 then I'm going to pay some offsets for it is not the way to 1291 01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:45,040 go. That's, that does not actually 1292 01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:47,600 help us. So that's why we're also making 1293 01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:50,720 material changes in our games. Well, Julie, thank you so much 1294 01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:53,560 for your time. Thank you for your expertise and 1295 01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:56,120 sharing and visiting with me for an hour. 1296 01:07:56,120 --> 01:08:00,200 I appreciate it. Thank you PJ, this is having a 1297 01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:03,000 platform to be able to tell people about sustainability is 1298 01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:04,600 the only way anything ever gets done. 1299 01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:09,160 It's true, it's true, it's our community and we have to clean 1300 01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:12,160 it up. So if anyone has any other 1301 01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:15,880 questions like for you about sustainability efforts, gamma, 1302 01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:19,840 publishing, designing of game, any questions at all, where 1303 01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:22,520 could they find you on all the platforms? 1304 01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:26,520 All the platforms. OK, so if you e-mail me 1305 01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:31,040 info@distantrabbitgames.com, that's probably the easiest way 1306 01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:33,800 to reach me. If you find distant rabbit games 1307 01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:40,279 on Instagram, Blue Sky, gosh, what else are we on? 1308 01:08:40,279 --> 01:08:42,640 We're on probably pretty much everything. 1309 01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:44,640 I've deleted TikTok. So sorry you won't be able to 1310 01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:51,000 reach me on TikTok, but OK. But we for ginky gosh, there's 1311 01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:54,680 so many platforms. We have a discord for our game 1312 01:08:54,720 --> 01:09:00,200 company for our first title there, but you can also reach 1313 01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:03,000 out to the game manufacturer. We just went through a 1314 01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:05,439 transition, used to be the Game Manufacturers Association, it's 1315 01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:07,680 not called the Tabletop Game Association. 1316 01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:09,960 If you wanna reach out there, they can direct you so. 1317 01:09:10,359 --> 01:09:13,479 It's not gamma anymore. It still is GAMMA. 1318 01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:18,080 The acronym is still GAMMA, but that's Game Association, 1319 01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:19,600 basically Tabletop Game Association. 1320 01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:23,439 OK, Because it used to be all manufacturers of games. 1321 01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:25,520 That's why I was called the Game Manufacturers Association. 1322 01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:28,319 But now there's media, there's retailers, there's everything. 1323 01:09:28,319 --> 01:09:31,439 So, right. But yeah, if you you can reach 1324 01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:33,279 out to them, they'll be able to put you in contact with 1325 01:09:33,279 --> 01:09:34,960 committees. Yeah. 1326 01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:38,200 Any, anywhere you see distant rabbit games, I'm going to be 1327 01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:39,920 the one that's answering that message or that e-mail. 1328 01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:44,600 So yeah, reach me. On distant rabbit games guys, 1329 01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:47,279 check them out. Julie will respond. 1330 01:09:47,279 --> 01:09:50,680 Thank you for watching guys. As always, please like and 1331 01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:53,760 subscribe comment below. Share your thoughts in the 1332 01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:59,280 comments of games that you think are really good at displaying 1333 01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:03,840 sustainability in their materials and we'll reach out 1334 01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:07,440 and reply to you right away. So, as always, be kind to one 1335 01:10:07,440 --> 01:10:10,880 another. Let's treat our planet well and 1336 01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:11,680 play more games.