1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,560 Hey guys, and happy Mardi Gras to all of you. 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:07,760 That's right, it is Fat Tuesday. They are celebrating parades in 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,600 my hometown of New Orleans. So once again, happy Mardi Gras 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,640 to everyone. Welcome to episode 161 of Maple. 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,440 To Maple, it is worker bees and worker placement. 6 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,760 So today we're exploring a truly sweet new title that's going to 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,160 be coming to Kickstarter soon, and that's APIs Milafera. 8 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,600 It's inspired by the amazing world of bees. 9 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:36,120 This game combines the beauty of nature with the strategy of 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,280 worker placement. You're going to take on the role 11 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,600 of a hive leader, managing your colony of industrious worker 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,640 bees, gathering nectar, crafting honey, all while navigating the 13 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,800 challenges that could either make or break your hive. 14 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:56,800 Bees make the perfect workers for your worker placement game. 15 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,560 Today I've got Henry from APIs Gaming Corp. 16 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,200 Henry, how are you? I'm doing great. 17 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:05,400 How are you doing, PJ? This is fantastic. 18 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:07,240 Thanks for joining. I really appreciate it. 19 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,320 Recently we talked about, I want to say it was last week, it 20 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:14,800 might have been the week before, I talked about how this podcast 21 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:19,680 marries really well with play testing of prototypes, and this 22 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,440 is a perfect example. You sent me a prototype of APIs 23 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,960 Melifera. We played it a couple times and 24 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:28,720 I got to experience it. We shipped it off to the next 25 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:30,960 person and now here we are. We're going to talk about your 26 00:01:30,960 --> 00:01:32,920 game. Yeah, I know. 27 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:37,360 I think a lot of the the content creation really ties well in 28 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:38,880 with prototypes. I think that's actually How I 29 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:40,800 Met you. As we are play testing another 30 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,800 prototype for my cousin, I see his game right behind you his 31 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,800 his expansion for Time Lancers. That's right, that's right. 32 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:48,600 That was a Gen. Con last years. 33 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:51,960 Yeah, that was that was fun. We didn't get a chance to play 34 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,160 your game, but I'm glad you were willing to stick it out with me 35 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,040 and send me a copy. And we did. 36 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,720 My wife and I play a lot of games together, just the two of 37 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:02,280 us. So we did play it at 2:00. 38 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,560 We had our local game group over, so we played it at 4:00 as 39 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,800 well. So we got kind of experience the 40 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,640 game and it it's pretty incredible. 41 00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:15,480 But I want to start, tell me about you and your how did you 42 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,600 get into the modern gaming hobby yourself? 43 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,680 So I myself started playing games when I was actually really 44 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:25,760 young. So my dad was a big war game 45 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,480 person, a strategy game person. So like I was playing very 46 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,520 complicated war games that were like made in the 70s and 80s 47 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:33,640 when I was like a teenager with my dad. 48 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:35,800 So, you know, you had a weird balance of like, oh, I would 49 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,160 play Monopoly one night with the family and then another night 50 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,560 I'm playing, you know, the Third Reich, which is a giant World 51 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:43,960 War 2 strategy game that takes like 4 hours to play. 52 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,280 I really started expanding beyond those kind of games in 53 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,520 college where we, you know, we learned the games are more 54 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,480 popular at Catan to get tried and then we jump to Twilight 55 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:58,440 Imperium as a group. And so that's it really was it. 56 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,000 We, we talked about all the time where we won, you know, in 57 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,400 college we would play it for six hours one night, like it just 58 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,600 stay up all night doing it. And then after that, we've kind 59 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,280 of played a lot more games since then. 60 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:11,760 I asked this just about everyone. 61 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,480 Do you have a favorite game of all time that you enjoy playing? 62 00:03:15,920 --> 00:03:18,760 Or if not, do you have a game that you enjoy playing like 63 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:20,920 right now? Yes, all time would be Twilight 64 00:03:20,920 --> 00:03:23,240 Imperium. OK, and maybe it's cuz I haven't 65 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,000 been able to play it enough to be sick of it yet, but that's 66 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,280 just cuz it's hard to get, you know, four people to commit six 67 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:30,920 hours of their day, you know what I mean? 68 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,600 But Imperium is my favorite game of all time. 69 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,880 I would say right now my favorite game to play aside from 70 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,960 APIs Mel Fiera. My game would be a Viticulture 71 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,800 or Terraforming Mars. Like those are the two I've been 72 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:47,520 playing a lot lately. So I know that APIs really is, 73 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,600 at its core a worker placement game. 74 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,440 I mean, it has other elements and we'll definitely get into 75 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,200 that. Is worker placement a favorite 76 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,400 of yours? Favorite mechanic? 77 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,360 Or like what gravity? What gravitated you towards that 78 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,480 mechanic and that theme? Yeah, it's actually one of our 79 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,960 my favorites and one of my business partner Drew's 80 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,040 favorites. And what gravitated toward that 81 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,680 theme was I was telling Drew that my cousin Kenny makes board 82 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,120 games and tell him about Time Lancers. 83 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:15,760 And he's like, well, I have an idea for a game. 84 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:17,760 And it was BC. And I was like, well, you know, 85 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:19,920 you make an outline and I'd like it, we'll go into business, 86 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:21,760 we'll make it together. And he did. 87 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:23,040 And I was like, this got a lot of potential. 88 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,120 Like this is very enjoyable. And so we've been working on it 89 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,480 ever since. And it just happens that worker 90 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,000 placement goes very well with BS. 91 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,200 And it is both of our favorite type of game. 92 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,680 So, and I guess I should say hello, Drew. 93 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:36,840 Sorry you weren't able to make it on the show. 94 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:41,760 Drew is he, does he keep bees like outside of his designing of 95 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:43,320 a game, is that something that he does? 96 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,360 Yeah. So it started off as a hobby for 97 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,080 him where he would actually keep bees, and he actually made Mead, 98 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,240 you know, like a wine that's based out of honey. 99 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,640 So he did as a hobby and then eventually found a position, a 100 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:58,080 job position that doesn't do it for a living. 101 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:01,080 So he's like a regional manager of different beekeepers. 102 00:05:02,280 --> 00:05:04,800 And so all the science in the game is based on his knowledge 103 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,720 of beekeeping. Wow, wow, that's I didn't 104 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,000 realize like you could make a living keeping bees. 105 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:12,280 That's that's. Kind of cool. 106 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:15,400 A lot of businesses are really getting into this, you know, 107 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,440 that green movement. And so they'll bring in, you 108 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,160 know, people to bring in beehives and then they'll need 109 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,160 people to manage those beehives when they're on their property. 110 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,320 So you get some like tax benefits for it. 111 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:26,960 And it's also a good public image thing. 112 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,880 And these are just an important part of our ecosystem in 113 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,720 general. And so Drew manages a lot of the 114 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,440 part time beekeepers that keep those hives together. 115 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,680 So he'll work with other businesses like, hey, we'd like 116 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:39,600 some hives here. We'll coordinate to get him the 117 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,120 equipment, find somebody to manage that hive locally. 118 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:44,360 So he handages like a whole southeast region. 119 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,000 I think that's. That's cool. 120 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,360 We have a a colleague in our professional world outside of 121 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,120 gaming who also keeps bees as a hobby. 122 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:55,760 I was thinking a lot about that and asking him a lot of 123 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,720 questions when I was looking at the prototype of APIs. 124 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:00,720 And I was like, hey man, is this like, you know, And I was 125 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:02,920 telling him about he's like, that sounds amazing. 126 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:08,520 I'm like, right, who knew? Right, Who knew? 127 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,520 Yeah, I mean, when we were at Gen. 128 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,080 Con, one of our play testers specifically, we did the the 129 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,280 play test room and when somebody specifically signed up for it 130 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:16,720 because they were a beekeeper and they loved it. 131 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,400 And that's kind of our exposures like people that keep bees that 132 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,040 really love this because we put a lot of we really try to build 133 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,160 the mechanics in the game around the science beekeeping. 134 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,520 And that was kind of where we came together where Drew would 135 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:28,920 have the idea of like, hey, this is how it works in real life. 136 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:30,880 And I'm like, OK, well, we have to match that with how we can 137 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:32,480 mechanically make it an enjoyable game. 138 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,400 And so that was kind of the the creative path that we took. 139 00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:39,200 So Drew presents you his idea, right? 140 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,680 And did you know what the theme was before he meant? 141 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:44,040 Yeah, he just said it was going to be bees. 142 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:45,920 A bee themed worker placement. That was all he said. 143 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,200 OK, so the only thing you knew was, hey, I've got this game 144 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,360 that I'm designed and it's a bee themed worker placement. 145 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,800 That's all you know, right? So there's your slate. 146 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,680 So then you get it and it's about keeping bees. 147 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,400 And I assume you don't know anything about this. 148 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,400 What was your initial reaction when you when you saw this? 149 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,200 Yeah, I know. I I didn't know anything about 150 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,080 bees, I'll be honest, except for I knew that he had bees and that 151 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,640 he made meat out of bees, which I have drank his meat, which is 152 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,000 great, right? But when I saw it, I was just 153 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,400 like, as he was explaining to me, I was like, oh, OK, what is 154 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,080 this, though? And he kept explaining the 155 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:22,800 science of it. I'm like, OK, I see how this is 156 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:24,520 all connecting. And it really started to 157 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,640 formulate in my head of how to really change the game to make 158 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,720 it such a a compelling play that people would want to play it 159 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:33,800 again and again. So like you, I went into it 160 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,920 cold, not knowing. And I really, I mean, at this 161 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,120 point, I know I probably can keep a lot of bees because I 162 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,360 know a lot of, right? So, so that's interesting 163 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,960 because I was wondering this myself. 164 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:48,920 You think that if you've played this game enough, the knowledge 165 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,040 would transfer to the real world. 166 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,200 Yes. However, I don't think you could 167 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,200 just play this game and then be able to raise a hive. 168 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,080 The reason I know it is because I had to ask those in depth 169 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:00,920 questions to make sure I understood it. 170 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,720 You know what I mean? Like I didn't want to create a 171 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,680 product that I didn't fully understand the science behind 172 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:07,480 it. So in the process of creating 173 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,800 this game, I think I could keep beehives quite successfully. 174 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,240 But yeah, if you just play it, I don't know if you'd be qualified 175 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,200 to do it. But I will say there are a lot 176 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,800 of easy ways to get involved in beekeeping. 177 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,480 A lot of associations in every state and local areas that you 178 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,680 can go to. I live here in Asheville, NC and 179 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,360 they have a beekeeping club that meets and talks about different 180 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,480 problems and helps you start your hives if you want. 181 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,000 Did you, did you reach out to that organization in the process 182 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,679 of making the game to educate yourself and did you share the 183 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:39,480 prototype with them to get their feedback? 184 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:43,960 We've reached out to a few beekeeping associations, but we 185 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,440 didn't give them a prototype yet, but we plan on to. 186 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,000 So we've talked to a couple. I live in North Carolina and so 187 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,760 I talked to the North Carolina association. 188 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,520 I've also there's a local one that I plan on going to and kind 189 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,360 of introducing it, but they kind of been on pause for the winter. 190 00:08:58,360 --> 00:08:59,800 So that's kind of part of it. Sure. 191 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,280 Yeah, but Drew is he does a lot of the beekeeping networking, so 192 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,280 in Georgia and all of the his business ties like he kind of 193 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,400 talks about like and he gets their feedback too like hey, 194 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,360 what do you think of this? Does this make sense to you as a 195 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:12,680 non board gamer but a beekeeper and things like. 196 00:09:12,680 --> 00:09:15,640 That I think that what I've observed recently is some of the 197 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:20,480 really hot, the hot games that people don't realize or the kind 198 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:22,920 of the they're not really sleepers, but are games that 199 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,320 appeal to the non gamers as well as the gamers, right? 200 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:31,720 And I I think APIs achieves that based on my experience, right. 201 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,960 And for those of you watching, Please note that I did play a 202 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:36,360 prototype. So we have no idea what the 203 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:37,760 amount of products are going to look like. 204 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,920 You know, once once you got it all cleaned up, I can only 205 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,480 imagine it's just going to be the Sky's the limit from there. 206 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,240 So tell me about the process you so you get started. 207 00:09:46,680 --> 00:09:50,200 Drew's giving you his idea the plan Where did it all begin? 208 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,080 It's. Important to know we live, we've 209 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,520 always lived in two different states since we started this 210 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:56,240 project. So when it first started, I 211 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,640 lived in Florida, he lived in Georgia still, he still lives in 212 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,280 Georgia. So it started on Zoom back in 213 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,520 2021, you know, and it was on PowerPoint. 214 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,440 So basically we did have a, you know, a knowledge of how to make 215 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,440 table tops and everything yet. So we basically just have 216 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,440 PowerPoint slides and one of us, like usually me, would move 217 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,000 around little bees onto the spot, little pictures of them. 218 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:20,840 And then we would just keep track of the tally of of the 219 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,560 resources and things like that. What then then developed into is 220 00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:27,200 we did a business trip and we actually made a little prototype 221 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,720 of like a poster board and a little sticky notes, you know, 222 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,120 your standard, how you actually start a board game thing. 223 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,040 And that that was kind of how it all started. 224 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,520 So in the process you you're going to be launching on, you're 225 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,320 going to be launching on Kickstarter, right? 226 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,720 Is that correct? Yeah, when at some point you 227 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:50,120 you're you're ready to pull that trigger and I know it's coming 228 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:51,720 up. It hasn't, it hasn't launched 229 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:56,120 yet. But what made you decide to go 230 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:02,160 with a crowd funding platform as opposed to reaching out to a 231 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:03,720 publisher? Maybe you did reach out to 232 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,320 publishers and have them publish it and sell the rights off 233 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,920 rather than self-publishing. Because that that's a really 234 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,200 interesting conversation and I've gotten a lot of different 235 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,760 answers from designers. Well, so admittedly we started 236 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,320 from the very beginning thinking Kickstarter, I think mainly 237 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:21,520 because that was what we were used to. 238 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,680 You know, we'd, I had backed games on Kickstarter before my 239 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:26,480 cousin had done his games on Kickstarter. 240 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,000 So that was what I was familiar with a couple years ago. 241 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,560 The idea of pitching it to a publisher came up at a 242 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:36,600 convention in Georgia was a convention specifically for game 243 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,320 designers to pitch their games to publishers. 244 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:39,720 We'd never really thought about it. 245 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,600 So we're like, yeah, we'll try it and see what it's like. 246 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:46,480 And I think we realized that we want too much artistic control 247 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:47,960 over the game that we don't want to change. 248 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,520 And so even though we had some good conversations with 249 00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:55,120 publishers, we never found anything that we really wanted 250 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,040 to to work with because we didn't want to lose that 251 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:58,920 control. We wanted to really stay to the 252 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,160 theme of beekeeping. And I know there are other games 253 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,440 out there that once you get pitched to publisher, they're 254 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,080 going to change stuff the way they want it. 255 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,520 And we just, we didn't want to lose that. 256 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:08,120 It's our it's our passion project. 257 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,400 Yeah, so, so tell everyone about let's let's talk about the game 258 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,640 itself, right? So when someone backs the game 259 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,560 and hits the table, you know, it's finished, fulfilled, it's 260 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:21,360 launched, everything's great, everything's happened and it 261 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,160 reaches their table. What can they expect when they 262 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,440 open the box? So when they can, when they open 263 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,040 the box, they should first expect to be hit with what they 264 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:36,640 saw on the pictures of a a very pretty game that is very gentle 265 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,680 and easy to kind of pick up. So even though it's AI would say 266 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:41,720 a, a worker placement is naturally going to be a little 267 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,960 bit heavier of a game. What we found is it's a lot 268 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,960 easier to learn. You know, when we send it to a 269 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,640 few people to do tests, play tests and previews, they're 270 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:51,440 like, yeah, they picked it up in like 20 minutes. 271 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,640 It suffers from at the very beginning the the thing all 272 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,080 worker placement stuff suffer from, which is that, you know, 273 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,520 too many options to do right, analysis paralysis. 274 00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:04,200 But once you start immediately starts flowing and then it just 275 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,080 is easy after that. So I think people would open it. 276 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:08,760 They're going to look at me like, oh, this is beautiful. 277 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:10,720 They set it all up. You know, maybe they're like, oh 278 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,800 man, there's a lot going on. But once they've learned how to 279 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,440 do it in like 10-15 minutes, it'll be they'll be smooth 280 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,560 sailing right after that. And so that that's kind of what 281 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:23,080 we wanted was a a vibe that was very nature specific. 282 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,720 Think Wingspan thinks of those kind of games but a worker 283 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,600 placement that also wasn't too hard for your non gamers to play 284 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:32,960 like one. That would be have a meat to it, 285 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:37,400 but also be easy to learn. So it's it's really similar. 286 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,720 Now, this is all contingent upon not too many changes based off 287 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,200 the prototype that I saw. So I can only speak from that. 288 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,680 But you're going to have the main board in front of you. 289 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:51,040 There's for seasoned gamers, there won't be any surprises, 290 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,480 places where you will place your workers, get resources, things 291 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,120 like that. But talk about the player 292 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:57,840 boards. They're probably my favorite 293 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,000 part of the game. Describe those two. 294 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,480 Yeah, so like you said, that there's going to be a shared 295 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:04,800 game board, which is like the world. 296 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:06,080 You send your bees out to the world. 297 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,000 Well, your player board is your hive, and there's two parts to 298 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:10,880 the hive. You have the actual hive 299 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,280 structure, which is kind of shaped and designed like an 300 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,440 actual beehive. And then on the other side would 301 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,120 be different actions that bees would do within their hive. 302 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,560 And so you have this really fun thing where you have waxed out 303 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,680 frames because bees will basically take wooden frames 304 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,360 that beekeepers give them, wax them out and then hold stuff in 305 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,080 them. And then beekeepers can also 306 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:32,680 expand their hives, stack them up higher. 307 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,480 That's why you see some hives that are short, some that are 308 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,720 really tall, things like that. And so then on the other side 309 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:38,640 would be the actions the bees would be doing in the hives, 310 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,920 things like turning the resources they got into honey, 311 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,320 you know, it's the most common one, laying eggs to make more 312 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,840 bees, those kind of things. And so every player board, it 313 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,000 has their own unique actions that no one else can take. 314 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,280 But then the game, the shared game board, the world is your 315 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,920 traditional work replacement where if someone takes a spot, 316 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,240 nobody else can take that. With a few exceptions, of 317 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,680 course. I think what's really cool about 318 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,120 the the player board in front of you is you were talked about it 319 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,040 a little bit, the wooden frame and they will would you say wax 320 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,400 it out wax. It out. 321 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,280 Yeah, that's that's kind of what we call it. 322 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:12,800 Yeah. So as an action, you can wax out 323 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,000 your frame and you take basically beeswax. 324 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,160 The bees will make beeswax and then they wax out the wood 325 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,400 that's in there. Now those wax frames can hold 326 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,240 resources the way that hives normally would hold resources. 327 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:29,040 So you can expand your hive and that's going to give you access 328 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,480 to more resources, right? Yep. 329 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,240 It can hold more resources, allow you to do more things, and 330 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,080 of course, the larger your hive goes, the more resources you 331 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:38,240 need to keep your bees alive. So. 332 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,000 Because they need to eat. So yeah. 333 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,200 What about? If I recall, you only start with 334 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:49,280 a small number of bees and there are ways to gain more to do more 335 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,880 actions in future rounds. Yeah, so a lot of worker 336 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,440 placements will slowly grow your amount of workers. 337 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,920 Think Fees for Odin, where you'll get one extra worker 338 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:00,800 every round. In this game, you make your 339 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,240 workers by either laying eggs, which will hatch into new 340 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,520 peoples, or you can buy some from the beekeeper. 341 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,800 And that's a pretty common actual bee practice is, you 342 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,320 know, a lot of people hear about buying Queens. 343 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,080 So if you're a new beekeeper, you might acquire a queen from 344 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,160 another seller, but you'll need some bees to also go with that 345 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,320 queen. And so you can buy bees for a 346 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,560 little bit cheaper of a price. In the real world and in the 347 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:22,200 game, you buy bees and add it to your hive. 348 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,400 And so this is, like you said, this is something that really 349 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,240 happens. Beekeepers do this. 350 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:29,080 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 351 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,440 If you're a new beekeeper, like you can't just put out a hive 352 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,080 and hope a bee occupies it. I mean, there's a small chance 353 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,960 that might happen. But in general, if you're a new 354 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,080 beekeeper, you'll purchase a queen, and usually it comes with 355 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,280 some bees of some sort. And then you kind of you 356 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,480 purchase all the equipment and you kind of introduce the queen 357 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,680 to the hive, and then it slowly grows from there. 358 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,120 But most beekeepers will start by buying what they need. 359 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,560 Right. So for those of you who like me, 360 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,480 have no idea how beekeeping works, but you've seen it. 361 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,480 There's the big box, right? There's like a wooden box. 362 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,599 And then you, you will see the beekeepers, they pull out the 363 00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:07,760 slats of wood, right? And and that's, that's 364 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,839 essentially what the player board is, right? 365 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,359 Is that is that slat of wood? Is there a name for that? 366 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,640 I can't remember. That's a a frame. 367 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,400 A-frame. So yeah, that's a so a wooden 368 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,839 frame. And most wooden frames will have 369 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:25,760 like this little substance in it that kind of starts the hexagon 370 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,359 shapes for the bees, makes a little bit easier for them, and 371 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,720 then the bees just kind of pile into the wax on that. 372 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,240 Yeah, and that and that's what you're building up on your 373 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,160 player board your. Yes, yes. 374 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,880 Waxing out, I believe you. Yep. 375 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,200 If building it, you take the wooden frames, you wax them out, 376 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,400 you're building up that hive size and then there's an empty 377 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,360 space in there that you can also expand by in the game, paying 378 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:50,320 the beekeeper honey. That's kind of the transaction 379 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,560 that you have and the beekeeper will slide some more wood in so 380 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,440 that you can wax more out and and hold more stuff. 381 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:04,000 What is it to your mind that makes your game APIs Mellifera 382 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,960 stand out from other worker placement games? 383 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,760 Obviously seasoned gamers are going to be like, do I really 384 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,560 need another worker placement? Obviously the short answer is 385 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,240 yes. What What makes your game stand 386 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:18,520 out from other worker placements? 387 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,200 First, I think the vibe of it, a lot of worker placements there, 388 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:25,760 they have their own unique vibe that they bring to the table. 389 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,200 And I, I haven't seen a worker placement that brings that 390 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,360 natural, the natural feeling, that nature feeling almost like 391 00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:34,640 an educational vibe in a way that's just not as common in 392 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,280 worker placements. So I think that's the first 393 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,120 part. I think the second part is it's 394 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:41,960 going to be a worker placement that you can also play with 395 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,120 friends that might not have played worker placements before. 396 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,680 And I think that's huge, right? Like we all have gaming groups 397 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,080 that we play and certain people like certain games and maybe you 398 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,760 have a a group of friends that likes to play those real casual 399 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,640 games and you really want to get them into the better, harder 400 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:57,760 core games. You know, you want to sit there 401 00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,240 for four hours and really grind it. 402 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:03,080 Terraforming Mars or something. Well, I think this game is a 403 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,640 great, you know, turn my boys use the gateway game. 404 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,120 So those games that are that level to really introduce them 405 00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:11,800 to a new level of game. And then you, you know, before 406 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,000 they know it now, they're suddenly they're sitting playing 407 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,320 Feast for Odin for 2 1/2 hours with you, you know? 408 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,040 Right. So is it safe to say that you, 409 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:23,520 you, it is your intention, your hope that your game would be the 410 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,560 perfect gateway worker placement game? 411 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,560 Yeah, absolutely. I I think that is a great thing 412 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,560 to say, a gateway worker placement game that is still 413 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,640 challenging enough for experienced players that you're 414 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,840 going to enjoy. Let's take that a step further, 415 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,040 right? New gamers, they play APIs, they 416 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,960 they love it and they're ready to move to the next thing. 417 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,880 Is there a second game that already exists, that's already 418 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,400 in your mind that you're like, man, you know, people love this 419 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,120 and they're going to love. That's a great question. 420 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:55,440 I think viticulture is a the theming of viticulture will 421 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,080 appeal to people that are newer to worker placement. 422 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,520 So if you've played APIs, then moving to viticulture because 423 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,160 it's making wine and that's always fun too. 424 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,520 I think you could also go into the more classics of Agricula or 425 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,240 if he's throwed in or architects of the West Kingdoms and other 426 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:12,120 worker placement. I love. 427 00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:14,720 I think those are all relatively easy. 428 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,680 That would be the next step. But if I had to pick one and be 429 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,120 viticulture, I think be the next step. 430 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,880 So go from making honey to making wine. 431 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,560 Exactly. I see what you're doing there. 432 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:30,160 So will there be either in the Kickstarter as a stretch goal or 433 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,160 as an add on or a future project? 434 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,840 Will there be an expansion where you can make Mead from the 435 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,680 honey? Because I don't remember that 436 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:44,280 being a component of the game. That's a great question. 437 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,240 And if that was to happen, that would be an expansion of some 438 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,920 sort because right now you play as a hive. 439 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,800 So that would be more of focused if you're playing as the 440 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,600 beekeeper, what you do with the honey afterwards. 441 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,360 So yeah, we're not working on that now, but we we want to see 442 00:20:57,360 --> 00:20:59,520 where we go with this project before we commit to other 443 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:00,640 things. So we have a lot of ideas, 444 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,880 including something like that. Was there and and since Drew's 445 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,760 not here, if you know this answer, I'll ask this of Drew as 446 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,840 well. But for the both of you, was 447 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:17,520 there a game or a series of games that you drew your 448 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,600 inspiration from when designing this one? 449 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,520 For sure, I can say for the vibe that we wanted players to feel 450 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,760 just by looking at it, something like Wingspan. 451 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,200 Like we love nature games, we love nature. 452 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,080 And I would say Wingspan is a really good gateway game too, 453 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:34,760 one that is easy to teach new people. 454 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,200 It's visually appealing. So a lot of non traditional 455 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,280 board gamers will want to play it, but also the people that are 456 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,320 hardcore gamers still enjoy playing Wingspan. 457 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,920 I haven't met somebody that doesn't enjoy Wingspan yet. 458 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,160 They might be out there, but I haven't met them. 459 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,200 Right. And so the vibe of Wingspan and 460 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,640 then we wanted the mental challenge of any worker 461 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,400 placement that we enjoy. You know, the games that we like 462 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,800 with Feast Rd. in inspired us, especially with the how you feel 463 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:01,960 in your frame versus how you feel in your player board and 464 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:03,920 Feast Rd. in various things like that. 465 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,760 I I think those are the kind of things that inspired us. 466 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,920 Yeah, so we established that Drew is a professional 467 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,120 beekeeper. What about his experience in 468 00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:14,320 gaming? So Drew is an experienced gamer. 469 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,680 He showed me a few games, some of those worker placements early 470 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,400 on, many years ago. So Drew and I, we met actually 471 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,800 in Afghanistan. We're both in the Army and we 472 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,640 met him. We were showed up and was like 473 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,240 when we talked about things we're interested in and video 474 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,000 games, board games or that. And then we moved to Georgia 475 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,040 after we finished our, our tour and we played a lot of games 476 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:34,840 there. So the early games that we play, 477 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:36,560 we played all the different versions of Risk. 478 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,480 We, I showed him games like Twilight Imperium, you know, 479 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,440 Katan, we played a lot of and we really got into work 480 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,760 replacements at that time. So did he, I'm assuming you guys 481 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,240 talked about it. Was there a specific game that 482 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:53,440 inspired him, or was this game inspired by his life outside of 483 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,800 gaming? Yeah, so I, I think his life 484 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,600 outside of gaming, really what inspired him was beekeeping. 485 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,560 He wanted, don't get me wrong, playing the games and loving 486 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,000 games inspired him to want to make one, but the idea of making 487 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,360 a bee themed game I think was really inspired by by his 488 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,040 passion for for nature and for beasts. 489 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,080 I think that you both managed to do something. 490 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:20,320 I, I preach this all the time. It's, it's all about the, the 491 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:25,040 sacrament of marriage between theme and mechanics. 492 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:29,200 And when it's done well, it is done really well. 493 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,720 And I think you guys have managed to execute that 494 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,480 brilliantly. Thank you. 495 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,560 You really get the impression that, I mean, yes, it's a worker 496 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,120 placement for seasoned gamers. We know how worker placements 497 00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:43,040 go, Yes, of course. But it's like the theme really, 498 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,960 and especially the science behind it really informs how the 499 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,680 mechanics work in the game so that you can do the things that 500 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,240 would be done. And it's all adhering to the 501 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,280 real world applications of that theme. 502 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,080 Can you talk a little bit about that? 503 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,600 Yeah, I mean, so first, I think, and Drew would agree with me on 504 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,640 this, that seems are what make a game. 505 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,280 I I know you have to have the base, you have to have a game 506 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,720 that actually works well, right. You can have a cool theme and if 507 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,040 the game doesn't work well, it's not fun. 508 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,760 But in order to make a game fun, functional, to enjoyable, you 509 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,360 need a good scene. And I played a lot of games that 510 00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:24,440 is some are very popular with with gamers. 511 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,760 And I'm like, I just the scene doesn't appeal to me. 512 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,800 And so, yeah. And when it came to making this, 513 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,200 there were sometimes where we had Drew kind of brought that 514 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,080 thematic, the science, the expertise to it. 515 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,760 And I kind of brought because while Drew plays games, I play a 516 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,800 lot, I play a lot of games. And so I kind of brought that 517 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,040 practical, you know, player based thought of mechanics into 518 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,000 it. And there were times we had to 519 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,640 butt heads on things and compromise to make sure that the 520 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,280 game is still enjoyable, but tried to be, as you know, true 521 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:52,920 to the theme as we possibly could. 522 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,560 Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it was executed 523 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,960 brilliantly. I again, I talk about this all 524 00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:02,040 the time. My absolute favorite game of all 525 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,680 time, which I haven't mentioned in probably 2 episodes. 526 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,840 So let's talk about it is Obsession, which marries the 527 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,280 theme and the mechanics so well. And if you strip them away, then 528 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,440 they're just kind of BLOB, put them together and it's just 529 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,400 gold. I really enjoyed the experience 530 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,000 of playing APIs. That was just was really 531 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,120 incredible and I thank you for that. 532 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,640 Well, thank you for playing it. We're we're very appreciative. 533 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,080 Honestly, that's probably the most fun thing is when some 534 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,440 people play our game and they tell us that they enjoyed it 535 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,840 like because it's a passion project of ours. 536 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,960 And so every time someone says that we enjoyed it as well, it's 537 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:39,880 like, that's awesome. That's what we want is we want 538 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,640 we've made this thing that we think is really fun, enjoyable, 539 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,200 We really love. And if other people love it too, 540 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:50,080 that it's very rewarding. So I want to ask you about the 541 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:55,440 actual process, the behind the scenes of making a board game. 542 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,040 What was your favorite aspect of the entire project working on 543 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,240 this? Well, I, I will say one small 544 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,320 thing I love, we love the different peoples that we've 545 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,960 used in the past. So the little pieces, the very 546 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,480 first ones we used were these little tiny circle bees. 547 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,240 I'll see if I got some photos of them to send it to you. 548 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,200 But like these little tiny like scrapbooking bees that, you 549 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,600 know, we bought. So we love them. 550 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,320 And even our the early play testers that were doing the real 551 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,360 rough version of friends and family were like, oh, these are 552 00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:23,320 so adorable. And so that kind of stuck with 553 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,640 us if like we need to make sure we like the bee pieces and 554 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,000 there's some other bee games out there that, you know, they're 555 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,760 enjoyable bee and we we love bees, right? 556 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,480 So we love playing games with bees, but their pieces aren't 557 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:34,960 they didn't feel right in our mind. 558 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,440 And so we're trying to make people. 559 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:37,840 And so honestly, that's part of it. 560 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,040 The peoples in the prototype were made by this really nice 561 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,040 couple who have a wood making business out of California. 562 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,360 So we bought those custom for that. 563 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:48,120 We'll I'll have to make sure that we keep in the main game 564 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,920 the that design into the actual manufacturing of it. 565 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,240 So I would say making the beefles was probably my favorite 566 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,960 part of it. Just the every time we use them, 567 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,200 it's just, it's great. Well now comes the follow up 568 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,200 question of what was the absolute worst part of this 569 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,640 experience? That you are just you never want 570 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,760 to repeat this again. Like it was just terrible and 571 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,920 you hated it. Were we talking just making the 572 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,240 game, or everything that involves A Kickstarter at the 573 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,760 game? The whole thing from the moment 574 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,880 Drew approaches you until, well, today, since Kickstarter hasn't 575 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,560 happened yet. But yeah, was it one thing that 576 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,640 just really you? It really pained you. 577 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:31,920 Social media and meta ads like, Oh my gosh, OK, so neither one 578 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,880 of us are very big social media people, but you kind of have to 579 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,640 be in order to market a game. And then so unfortunately in the 580 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,520 division of work, that kind of fell on me because Drew didn't 581 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,440 even have certain social medias and I did, you know, and I don't 582 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,320 know that is a unfun experience. I I do appreciate and I love 583 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:54,480 watching content creators, but I don't know, I, I'm not really, I 584 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,320 don't want to be out there in media very often, admittedly, to 585 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,520 then turn that into like, OK, now I have to not only, you 586 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,400 know, post occasion on social media, now I have to figure out 587 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,480 how to make ads that will show other people the game so they'll 588 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,720 be interested in it. It's just non enjoyable 589 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,720 experience. And in particular, Meta's 590 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,280 advertising tool is not user friendly to people that never 591 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:20,640 done it before. OK, well, there you have it. 592 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:21,680 I, I love that. Thank. 593 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,720 Thank you for your honesty. I appreciate that. 594 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,960 So if, if you had a friend or a colleague, anyone as approaching 595 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,440 you, they've got an idea for a game just much like Drew did, 596 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:33,680 and they're thinking about designing a game. 597 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,440 What advice do you have for a first time game design? 598 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,680 The best advice, and we've received this from other game 599 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,560 designers, is really figure out what is your goal for this game. 600 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,920 If your goal is just to make a game that you and your friends 601 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,520 and family can enjoy, you know, that's kind of very different 602 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,880 than if hey, I want to make a game and release it and get a 603 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,240 lot of people out there. And knowing what your goal is 604 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,720 will also help you understand really the full task that you're 605 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,680 taking on. Because if you're just making a 606 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,120 game for you and your friends and family, you know, you only 607 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,000 need one copy of it. Your own copy get printed play 608 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,920 or one of those small board game makers just to make an 609 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,720 individual copy and that's it. I mean, you know, you made it an 610 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,280 art passion project and you can enjoy it with your friends and 611 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,960 family. But if you're, if you're really 612 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,680 like, hey, I have this idea for this game, I want to share it 613 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,600 with the world. Want to get it out there? 614 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,640 Well then know that there's a lot of things that go on with 615 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,200 it, like marketing and meta ads and a Kickstarter process and 616 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,840 getting manufacturers and fulfilment and all those 617 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,480 different things behind the scenes that admittedly we 618 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,840 weren't as prepared for when we started this project. 619 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:42,240 Yeah, so talk to me about the community of board game 620 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,120 designers, right? I mean, obviously your cousin 621 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,480 designed game, they're working on their expansion. 622 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,280 Then I know they got some other projects going on, but how well 623 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,880 were you received your idea received when you were reaching 624 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,440 out to other designers just to be like help? 625 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,000 Yeah, the game designers are really, at least our experience 626 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,520 are really supportive of each other. 627 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,600 First of all, one of the conventions I mentioned is 628 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,520 called Proto ATL. Basically the whole thing is 629 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,840 just a whole bunch of game designers where you play test 630 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,000 each other's games and you get honest feedback from that. 631 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,280 And that's great because a lot of times your friends and 632 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,960 family, you know, they love you. So they're not going to tell you 633 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,840 all the mean things. You know, maybe they'll be like, 634 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:22,560 well, this much, I didn't enjoy it this much. 635 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,880 Whatever. Another public, another game 636 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,280 maker will sit there and be like, yeah, this really was not 637 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:28,600 good. I did not enjoy this. 638 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,200 But and you know, at that time, it's like a punch to the gut, 639 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,880 but it's very appreciative because it comes out of a place 640 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,440 of like, hey, they want to help you succeed. 641 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,800 And so they see that's what they view as a flaw and they want to 642 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,520 address it with you. And additionally, you know, and 643 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,120 I want to, I'll throw out a few shout outs. 644 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,800 There's, you know, my cousin has been extremely helpful, but he's 645 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:47,200 family, right? So you might think, well, he has 646 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,800 to be. But there's another game 647 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:51,800 designer. He made a game called Ultra 648 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,360 Massive. It's a black hole themed board 649 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:54,760 game. He did his Kickstarter last 650 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,360 year. My name's Alex, super great, 651 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,520 helpful. He would log on the calls with 652 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,520 us, be like, yeah, this is what I did. 653 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,200 This is how we did it. These are the challenges that we 654 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,120 had. Give us feedback on things like 655 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,360 the graphic design of stuff because that's kind of what he 656 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,280 does by his day job. Another shout out to James from 657 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,640 Pocket Parks, a game that just recently got funded on 658 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,960 Kickstarter. James took the time to do 659 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,720 Discord calls with us and kind of walk us through some of the 660 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,080 challenges that we had. So like overall, the game design 661 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,360 community is very supportive of each other and I think that is 662 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,000 great. And we try to pay that back too, 663 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,840 whenever people have questions from us. 664 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,640 That's fantastic. I'm, I'm really pleased to hear 665 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,080 that because yeah, I feel like sometimes as content creators, 666 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,440 we kind of get, we get lost in the, you know, there's multiple 667 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,040 sub communities, there's the content creator community, then 668 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,760 there's this, the gamers, right? And then there's the designers 669 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,200 and there's the publishers. And I'm really trying to 670 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,240 incorporate all of them on the show, which is why you're on 671 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:52,920 that. And I got the prototype of your 672 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,120 game and play it, which I love play testing. 673 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,320 So I want to talk about really quickly, how easy was it for you 674 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:06,000 and or drew for that matter, to open yourselves up and allow 675 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,600 yourselves to be vulnerable to constructive criticism? 676 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,240 Like how difficult was that for you? 677 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,360 So it can be, you know, a little bit of a anxiety inducing to 678 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,680 start, I will say. But once you do it the first 679 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:23,040 time, then it gets a lot easier and you take that feedback and 680 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,400 you improve your game. And pretty soon people don't 681 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,320 have a lot of negative feedback. They're small things might be 682 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,560 like, oh, well, you know, the production of this. 683 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,120 And and then in your mind, you're like, OK, well, it's a 684 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:33,160 prototype. You know what I mean? 685 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:34,320 This isn't the final product, right? 686 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,360 I only got so much money to spend to make a new version 687 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:42,800 every 5-5 weeks, right? But I think, yeah, it's exactly 688 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,840 it's it could be like you could build it up in your head. 689 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,880 But the moment you do it, I think it makes it a lot easier. 690 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,520 Like, you get out of the way that first game with a bunch of 691 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,920 strangers, they give you bad feedback, you know? 692 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,360 You go to the hotel bar, grab a drink real quick, come back out, 693 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,360 and then you're back out there playing more games and you feel 694 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,040 good, you know? So it sounds like, and this is 695 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,400 not surprising, it sounds like it's it's up to the individual 696 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,520 how well they receive the feedback, whether good or bad. 697 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,520 Yes, absolutely. And I always want to emphasize 698 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,880 and we always say this when anytime we play test anybody's 699 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,680 game, it's like, hey, like we it's this is going to be set out 700 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,840 of constructive criticism for your benefit. 701 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,600 So we, it's not that we have anything against it and we're 702 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,440 here to try to help you make your game better. 703 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,360 And so when you approach that mindset of like, hey, they're 704 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:29,960 only trying to help you, it's a lot easier. 705 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,840 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. 706 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,400 So when is when's the game coming to Kickstarter? 707 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,120 So we're hoping to launch in the spring. 708 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,480 We're keeping that, you know, a little bit flexible whether it 709 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,680 be the end of March or or early April based on where we are with 710 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,640 our numbers. And part of that marketing is 711 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,880 your, you have certain numbers that you want to try to beat 712 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,400 before you launch to make sure that you'll get backed on time. 713 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,120 So in the spring though is springtime. 714 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,640 For you, do you have a page that folks can follow on Kickstarter 715 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,360 now or have have you? We do have a Kickstarter pre 716 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,840 launch page and we have a we have a pre launch page and then 717 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,320 we have an e-mail sign up that people can sign up. 718 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:07,440 If they want to do our e-mail list. 719 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,360 They can also do it the one of the $1.00 reservations that 720 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,120 they'll get a custom bead that seemed die that'll go with their 721 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,000 game when they back in on Kickstarter. 722 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,800 OK, so here comes your favorite part. 723 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:21,400 OK, because you've already said it's not your favorite. 724 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,159 So tell everyone where they can find you on all the social 725 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:30,000 platforms and where they can find and back APIs mellifera 726 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,840 when it launches. Absolutely. 727 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,400 So we on Instagram, we are APIs Gaming LLC on our Kickstarter. 728 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,760 If you just simply search for APIs Melifera the B game or just 729 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:41,480 APIs Melifera, it's probably going to pop up. 730 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,360 But APIs Melifera the B game, you'll find our pre launch page. 731 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:49,679 And then on our web, our website isapislaunch.apisgameapisboardgaming.com. 732 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:51,719 And I'll, I'll make sure I, I send you the links too, because 733 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,760 they're a little bit longer and that way people can just look at 734 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:56,239 them instead of trying to listen to what I'm saying. 735 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,240 Yeah, we will definitely have all that in the in the links 736 00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:02,720 below. Well, Henry, thank you so much 737 00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:04,960 for this was really cool. Thanks for letting me be a part 738 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,800 of the play testing experience. This game is really interesting 739 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,320 guys. Take a look at it, go to the pre 740 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,120 launch page, see what you think. There's some great pictures on 741 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:15,960 Instagram. I've got it up on my phone right 742 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,000 now taking a look at it. Give them a like and a follow as 743 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,520 well if you can. And please send us comments. 744 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,400 Be sure to like and subscribe the channel. 745 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,680 And here's the question for you. What is your favorite worker 746 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,880 placement game? Send that to us in the comments 747 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,240 after you listen to this. Once again, be kind to one 748 00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:36,320 another and let's play more games. 749 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,200 Absolutely. Thanks, PJ.