1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,160 Hey, and welcome to episode 1 Three. 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:07,160 On today's episode of Meeple to Meeple, I'm turning up the amp 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:11,480 to 11 and placing tokens on the board with someone who knows a 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,920 thing or two about rhythm and rock'n'roll, the legendary 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,800 Jackie Fox. She's joining me today to talk 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:22,760 about her leap from pounding bass lines on stage to designing 7 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:24,400 board game mechanics at the table. 8 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:29,120 Her game Rock Hard 1977 doesn't just capture the spirit of a 9 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:33,560 wild era in rock history, it puts you right in the middle. 10 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,480 We'll chat about her time rocking on the stage, her 11 00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:41,360 creative process behind bringing backstage drama and tour life 12 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,440 into a board game, and why the worlds of music and tabletop 13 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,280 gaming have more in common then you might think. 14 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,480 Get ready to explore the crossover of rock'n'roll 15 00:00:51,480 --> 00:00:54,040 storytelling with cardboard and acrylic. 16 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:59,000 So tune your guitars, grab your meeples as Jackie teaches me how 17 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,320 to hit all the right notes on my tabletop. 18 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:06,320 It's bass lines to board games. Jackie, how are you? 19 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:07,400 I'm. Good. 20 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:09,800 How are you? I'm fantastic. 21 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,320 Thank you so much for joining me. 22 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:13,440 I'm really looking forward to this conversation so. 23 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,280 I am too. I was just at the World Series 24 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,800 of board gaming. I got to do my first 25 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,160 commentating on a board game. How, and it turns out it was 26 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,440 interesting because I'd only ever played the game once. 27 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:26,280 It was. It was raw, right? 28 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,040 That's what. You it was very raw. 29 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,120 So, So what is it like? I'm trying to imagine 30 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:34,400 commentating for a board game right? 31 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:35,280 Like. Right. 32 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,640 You know, we went and interviewed the finalists for it 33 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,800 was one of the ring matches. So that was for winning an 34 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,800 actual ring. And I mean, this is a certified 35 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,480 diamond ring. These rings are crazy nice. 36 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,560 And it was these four guys. I interviewed them beforehand 37 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,320 and. And I was doing this with Mike 38 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,880 Delicio from the Dice Tower, and he's asking all these questions 39 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,520 about the game. And I'm saying, though, where 40 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,040 are you from? What do you do? 41 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,480 What are you doing when you're done with the World Series? 42 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,560 So I got to know them. Yeah. 43 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,680 And most of my commentary, because RAW is not, you don't 44 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:10,919 really have to explain to people what's going on. 45 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,080 They're pulling tiles. So I was able to say who they 46 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,400 were, whether they had previous rings, how many final tables 47 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,440 they had been at. So I kind of stuck to that part. 48 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,960 And then and then I got saved. I just got saved, I'll say that. 49 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,920 I just, I can't imagine like I'm picturing like golf announcers. 50 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:34,680 So Tim places his meeple on the first square to cut his wood for 51 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,760 round one. Well, I think I was supposed to 52 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,480 do after the fact commentary for the Rock Hard final. 53 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,520 Yeah. But I forgot to be honest. 54 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,560 So hey, what was that like? Wow, just watching people 55 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,800 competitively play your game. So, you know, it was awesome. 56 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:58,000 They started the final at about 11:30 PM and the awards ceremony 57 00:02:58,000 --> 00:02:59,920 was at 8:00 AM the following day. 58 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,480 So I basically went out, introduced myself, asked them if 59 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,960 they had any questions and said good, you guys stay up late and 60 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,520 rock like true rockers. I'm going to bed if you don't 61 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:11,960 want to come at 8:00 in the morning. 62 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,120 If you all agree you don't need to be there, I'll just go 63 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,880 collect this, you know, except on your behalf and you can sleep 64 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:20,680 in. But then you get your adrenaline 65 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,240 is so pumping when you're competing that the the guy who 66 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:30,640 won Justin showed up, collected his $250 in cash and got 67 00:03:30,640 --> 00:03:33,320 congratulated by me. Wow, that's amazing. 68 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaking of cash, I'm going to bounce around here. 69 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,480 So one of the features of your game is the actual paper money, 70 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,000 right? I cried when they told me they 71 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,880 were putting paper money in my game because they showed it to 72 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,560 me over. Is it like over a Google Meet or 73 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:49,960 is it? And it's like, oh, here's the 74 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,280 money for your game. And I looked at it and I went, 75 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:57,160 you put paper money in my game. I was just like, yeah, it looks 76 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,160 great. And I didn't get it until I got 77 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,880 my first copy and opened it up and I went, Oh my God, this is 78 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,320 awesome. I think that I think that's 79 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,440 everyone's experience when they first opened it like paper 80 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:11,040 money. Whoa. 81 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,440 Yeah, it's like it. It feels and looks like real 82 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,519 money. And it it takes people a while 83 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:22,120 to realize that instead of the dead presidents, you've got the 84 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,920 the numbers. But there are serial numbers on 85 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:29,440 it and a signature and it really looks like money and it feels 86 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,720 like money. That's, that is probably one of 87 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,920 the biggest selling points cuz that's such a great touch. 88 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,280 And I love how there's like phone numbers written on it and 89 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,840 lipstick kisses on it. Things that you would really see 90 00:04:44,840 --> 00:04:47,160 in the, what do you call it, The nightly? 91 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:51,840 Yeah, that was the paper money was all De Vere and Maple 92 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:53,560 Foundry. I can't take credit for that, 93 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,040 but I can take credit for suggesting they put the lipstick 94 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:01,400 stains and the coffee stains and just making it look like grungy 95 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,560 money from the 70s. And then they they took that 96 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,720 even further. They put phone numbers on it. 97 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,320 So yeah, you have all kinds of little decorations on the bills. 98 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:12,840 So cool. There are a lot of little 99 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:17,120 touches in that game that various people contributed and 100 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,720 some of them are subtle and some of them are very in your face. 101 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,960 I would say that your game probably was the not the Dark 102 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,080 Horse of 2024. It was last year, right? 103 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,200 It really took us by surprise. We were like a rock'n'roll game. 104 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,120 OK, didn't didn't hear much about it. 105 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,720 There was not a lot of lead up before it was released and then 106 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,880 we played it and just you took our breaths away. 107 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,800 The experience is amazing. You know, up until I think my 108 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,200 game and and to some extent draft and write records, there 109 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:54,400 really had not been thematic games about the music industry, 110 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,960 right Lacrimosa in the classical area, which is what brought me 111 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,480 to de view was that game. Yes, my great selling point was 112 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:06,480 me. Mozart natural fit devere went. 113 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,360 Yeah, sure, why not? That's fantastic. 114 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,960 I think one of the one of the things when I'm, when I am 115 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,520 talking to people about your game, I, what I really enjoy is 116 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,760 that it is a worker placement where you have one worker and 117 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:20,320 that worker is you. Yeah. 118 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,240 So you have managed to, and I'm going to ask you to say more 119 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,920 about like how you did this. You've managed to really make it 120 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:32,280 immersive because you're the worker, you are doing all the 121 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:34,320 things. How did that, how did that come 122 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:35,680 about? Talk about your process. 123 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,760 The process was there were five people that showed up to my 124 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,120 house for game day and we wanted to play a strategy, you know, 125 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,640 something strategic that played it by players. 126 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:50,360 And it was kind of like, oh, look, in the year of the dragon, 127 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,720 what else is there on my shelf anyway? 128 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,520 It was on the year the dragon because this was pre pandemic. 129 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,000 And after they left, I think we found something else that 130 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,440 somebody had brought that played at 5 and it was not very 131 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,560 satisfying. And I went, you know, there's a 132 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,720 game missing from my shelf and it's something that is strategic 133 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:11,160 but has the fun factor of an American game. 134 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,280 And we'll play up to five players and like, why doesn't 135 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,360 that game exist? It doesn't exist. 136 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,160 I'm going to design and it just popped into my head that the 137 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,640 music industry is a natural fit for a worker placement game. 138 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:25,800 Sure. And apparently it popped into a 139 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,840 few people's heads around the same time. 140 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:32,600 Because I I have seen other people who said they started 141 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,480 their games around the same time, or at least before mine 142 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:40,080 was released, and they came up with some similar, really 143 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,080 similar things, worker placement with some very similar spots. 144 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,360 Because the music industry works in a particular way, and because 145 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,240 it does, and because people kind of understand it from 146 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,800 entertainment coverage, it makes learning a game a lot easier. 147 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:01,240 And to make it even easier to learn, I divided my game into 3 148 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:02,800 phases. Daytime. 149 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,840 What did I end up calling it? Night and after hours. 150 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,880 After hours, yeah. So it was night and late night, 151 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,000 which has got confusing for some people. 152 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,000 So I went, well, we'll make it after hours. 153 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,400 And because you only have to think about the actions that you 154 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:18,960 can do in the day or that you can do anytime. 155 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,320 Once you get better, you do start looking ahead and you do 156 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:26,520 start planning, but you can play it and you can remember it just 157 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,280 because you're only dealing with a certain number of actions 158 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,720 during each phase, right? There's room to get better, but 159 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,760 you can jump right in and it looks intimidating but people 160 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,799 pick it up after 2 rounds. They're running it themselves. 161 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:43,080 So let me let me back up because I should have asked you this 162 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,640 first. How did you get into modern 163 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,320 board gaming originally? What was the first game and do 164 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,400 you have a favorite? I love to be able to tell this 165 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,560 story right now because the the I'm going to go a little bit 166 00:08:54,560 --> 00:08:58,000 backwards, but the first game I ever played at A at a modern 167 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,120 meet up was Escape from the Aliens in outer space. 168 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,520 And if you go to the BGG hot as right, at least as of the time 169 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,640 of this recording, I am right underneath Escape from the 170 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,760 Aliens in Outer Space, which is like kind of a trippy moment 171 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:14,920 because that was literally one of the managers in my game. 172 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,680 And Junior Evans is a combination of two people, 173 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:23,240 including a friend of mine who I met playing that game because I 174 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,440 was an alien and he was a human and I ate him. 175 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:28,360 And now we're friends and I just sort of love that. 176 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,200 That's like that's how you make friends in board gaming. 177 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,680 You eat somebody and then they become your lifelong friend. 178 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,960 Or you get eaten. Or you get eaten. 179 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,040 Yeah. And after you've you're done 180 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,520 flipping the table, I exchanged contact info and there you go. 181 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,600 But yeah, I grew up playing games, OK, particularly, you 182 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,280 know, all the board games that were available when I was 183 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:51,880 growing up, which weren't very good ones. 184 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:57,320 They were like, sorry and, and original Risk and Monopoly and 185 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,120 the Game of Life, which basically taught me that there 186 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,000 is no point in going to college. Although eventually, eventually 187 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,480 I realized there was a point. But that was my takeaways like 188 00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:08,960 don't get married, don't have kids, don't go to college. 189 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:10,840 So I joined a rock band. Joined. 190 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,200 A rock band. I learned, I learned everything 191 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:14,600 there was to learn from the game of life. 192 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:16,920 And then I relearned it when I got older. 193 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,440 But anyway, you know, life happens. 194 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,280 You do, you join as one does. You join a rock band, you go out 195 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,320 and tour the world. You realize there's more to the 196 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,160 world. You go back to college and 197 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,960 somewhere along the way games just drop out and and then by 198 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,400 chance, if you're me, you see a friend post how much they'd like 199 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,400 to get back into D&D and I that sounds like that's going to be 200 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,200 fun because I did that with my now ex-husband while I was in 201 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:46,480 law school. I didn't want. 202 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,680 I mean, law school is pretty boring to be honest. 203 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,440 So I married a game producer. Not because law school was 204 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,480 boring, just because they're not connected. 205 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,360 But I was married to a video game producer so we had every 206 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,680 game system in existence. And then he also got me back 207 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:08,960 into gaming and largely into doing DND and Shadow Run, which 208 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,360 we did. I mean we did 1st edition Shadow 209 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,280 Run. Wow, now you're taking me back. 210 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:19,560 Yeah, and both is a second edition DND and 1st edition 211 00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:23,040 Shadow Run. And I had such a good time doing 212 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,880 that. But then I became a lawyer and 213 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:27,640 you really don't have time to play games. 214 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,680 But as I was starting to think about retiring and having a 215 00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:35,240 little more free time, I saw this post by my friend and I 216 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,240 went, yeah, this sounds fun. And I looked for a meet up close 217 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,800 to my house, found one that said come prepared with a level 9 218 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,800 character. And I was like no, I think I 219 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,920 need my handheld after all this time that sounds like that, I'm 220 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,640 not going to be able to do that. So I but I happened to see an ad 221 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,880 for a board game meet up that was a block away from that. 222 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,640 So I went, I'll just go drop into that and see what that's 223 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,640 like and insta hook. Nice. 224 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,480 I have been playing games ever since. 225 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,400 When when was that? Do you remember like what year 226 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:08,880 I'm? Trying to figure out. 227 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,520 I think it's was somewhere between 8 and 10 years ago. 228 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:16,080 OK, OK, that's cool. So you have just demonstrated 229 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,440 what I constantly say on the show is that board games are all 230 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,160 about this shared experience at the tabletop and that the board 231 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,600 game or the mechanics that happen in front of us. 232 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,480 Because I don't know if you feel this way. 233 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:34,000 I believe that in playing board games is it's really intimate 234 00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:39,680 experience, right, That we share together with a common goal, 235 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:43,680 whether that's to, you know, cooperatively defeat the game or 236 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:46,920 to compete against one another. But there's a level of intimacy 237 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,840 that I find and I have a tendency to I can't turn off the 238 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:52,960 podcast interviewer. So if I'm playing a game with 239 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,560 you and I take my turn and while I'm waiting, I'm be like, so 240 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,440 tell me where you from and you know, how'd you how'd you and 241 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,720 your husband meet? Or I just I can't help it. 242 00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:06,120 Yeah. One of the things that's great 243 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,840 though is that if you're not somebody that's comfortable with 244 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:13,600 all that, you can just show up and play and it's eases social 245 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,480 interactions. There are a lot of 246 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,960 neurodivergent people that play board games, yes. 247 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,520 And and part I think it's because the social experience is 248 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,840 so geared around a shared love of something. 249 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,800 Yes. That you're in a safe space, 250 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,760 you're not having to talk a lot about yourself and and if you're 251 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,200 with somebody like you, you're not having to steer the 252 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,640 conversation, right. So it's nice, but I'm also going 253 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,480 to say it's not always an intimate shared experience 254 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,920 because I think there are great solo games out there and that's 255 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,040 a great exercise for your brains. 256 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,560 Something I do every morning, which you may not have the 257 00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:51,920 luxury of. The first thing I do when I wake 258 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,600 up after feeding the cats and getting dressed, but the first 259 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,840 thing I do just sit down on my computer and I play a light 260 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,800 little game. So I'll go to BGA and I'll just 261 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,760 warm my day up with a little ticket to ride or something 262 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,920 like, you know, something nice and easy. 263 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,120 Or I'll do the New York Times crossword puzzle. 264 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,000 Just something I can do by myself, kind of wake the brain 265 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,920 up and get it ready to be there and present and doing whatever I 266 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:18,400 need to do during the day. Right. 267 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,680 Yeah, No, you're absolutely right. 268 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,200 There are some fantastic solo board games out there. 269 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,120 I've talked about this a lot. I've shared my personal story 270 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,800 about why I don't play solo games because I played a lot of 271 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,640 board games that weren't because you, you know, there weren't, 272 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,760 there were no solo games when we were growing up. 273 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,560 And so I didn't have a lot of friends. 274 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,760 So I would play Monopoly or Risk or some of the other games you 275 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,880 just mentioned and I'd have to play them alone. 276 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,400 And that baggage hasn't left. So when I sit at a table and I 277 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,800 set up a board game, I have this, this block. 278 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:56,880 I just I get depressed. Well solo modes, more complex 279 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,000 games are a great way to learn the mechanisms and have an 280 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:02,800 easier time teaching your friends. 281 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,640 Which is great. But also, I was in a Gloom Haven 282 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,640 group and I didn't choose the group carefully enough. 283 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,720 Two of the guys were the type that when it wasn't their turn, 284 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,120 they would just start talking loudly about college football 285 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:17,840 while other people were trying to think. 286 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,560 So the other person in my group dropped out because couldn't 287 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,160 stand those two. I hung in there for a while and 288 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:26,760 finally I went, life's too short. 289 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,520 And I just finished the entire campaign by myself. 290 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,440 And that is a bit, you know, that's a lot to run. 291 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,240 That's a lot. But it got me into the mindset 292 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,240 of solo gaming and solving a puzzle on my own. 293 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:45,880 And I say I like gaming with other people more, but sometimes 294 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,000 I don't have the time or you just can't do it. 295 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,200 So I will play games on my own or I'll go online. 296 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:56,520 Derek Porter of BGG, I will curse him to this day because he 297 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,600 tricked me into playing Blood on the Clock Tower and I love it. 298 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,560 I I generally hate social deduction games, but there's so 299 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,000 much logical deduction in this one and plus social deduction 300 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,720 and there's a great community of people that play this game. 301 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,040 So I'm kind of hooked and it's a nice change up. 302 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,360 Uses a different part of my brain than, say, a Lacerda. 303 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,120 Very true. Yeah, I think every part of your 304 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,080 brain uses a a different part of your brain than Laserda. 305 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,960 That man thinks outside the box. Well, inside the box, but. 306 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:35,600 Both, right, Both and both. And outside the box is he puts 307 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,440 outside the box inside the box. Yes, yes, he does. 308 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:41,880 Well, I didn't. I didn't mean for the 309 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,880 conversation to go to go so heavy as a lacerda, but. 310 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,800 Well, that I mean, I'm people are very surprised because my 311 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,040 game is not particularly complex. 312 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:55,120 It's about the same complexity as wingspan or something in that 313 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,640 area. OK, you know, medium light, but 314 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:03,560 I prefer medium heavy games. I just I like challenging 315 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,599 myself. So but I'm I'm really an Omni 316 00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:11,400 gamer. I think though that your game 317 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:17,760 has it's so immersive. While I agree it's it's it's 318 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:19,720 light to medium weight. Yes for sure. 319 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:24,040 I have so much fun playing it and I'm so immersed in it that 320 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,800 everything else just falls away and. 321 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,600 That was what I what I did when I sat down, it was like what 322 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,840 experience do I want my players to have less. 323 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,760 Let me not think about mechanisms and well, the theme 324 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,600 popped in there for because it's a natural. 325 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,440 Then it was like, what experience do I want my players 326 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,040 to have? Do I want them to have a super 327 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:48,680 puzzly try to work this out? Do I want more interaction? 328 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,640 And it's like, I want you to feel like you are an up and 329 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,000 coming musician trying to break out into the big time. 330 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,480 And I intended intentionally simplified the game to it's 331 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,960 really the basics that you needed for that experience and 332 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,560 then designed an expansion, which is finally going to come 333 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,760 out sometime next year. Oh, that's exciting, adds 334 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,680 another path to victory. Because the the complaint from 335 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,200 people who don't like the game is that it's too linear. 336 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,400 And it's like, yeah, this is meant to be. 337 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,760 If you're a strategy board gamer, you'll still enjoy 338 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,960 playing this game. But you can take that person 339 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,720 who's only willing to play light games because they're nervous 340 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,000 about playing strategy games. And you can say this is a 341 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,800 strategy game you will be able to play, and you'll pick it up 342 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,640 really quickly. And then I start adding in 343 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,720 modules. So for instance, in this game, 344 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,480 writing songs is probably the least exciting part of things, 345 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,720 which is an accurate reflection of life because sitting down and 346 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,960 writing a song is a lot of work. In this game, it's weirdly 347 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:53,960 represented by not being a lot of work. 348 00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:57,600 You just say I'm going to write a song and you turn your dial by 349 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,320 1. So I wanted to blow that little 350 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,880 moment up into something a lot more interesting. 351 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,280 And so in the expansion, when you write a song, if you've got 352 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,040 some life experience that you haven't written about before, 353 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,560 you can use your experience to write a song of a particular 354 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,080 style. So if you've had you've hung out 355 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,360 backstage and had a romantic experience, you can write a 356 00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:23,840 power ballad, you've been hanging out at Hoover's, you're 357 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,280 writing an anthem, right? You know, etc. 358 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,600 And when you have those song styles, then it's something that 359 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,520 you can go promote as a single when you take, when you hire 360 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,720 indie promo and you'll flip that to show that you promoted that 361 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:40,320 song and you'll move up the chart. 362 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,680 So there's a little area majority kind of thing going on, 363 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,600 or I should say area control because you want to be highest 364 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,880 up on the chart and if you do make it to number 1, you also 365 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,720 get some extra points for that. That's cool. 366 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,920 That's like a. 4th. Next year, you think? 367 00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:59,360 Yeah. It's sometime next year. 368 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:02,320 I don't have an exact date. I've seen the artwork. 369 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,520 The artwork's great. There are two new characters, 2 370 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,480 new managers, new cards for every deck and date, and this 371 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,760 chart that you get to climb. So I'm excited about that. 372 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,160 Is there the possibility in the future? 373 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,560 Because the whole idea is that yes, OK, well, there you go. 374 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:19,040 There you go, folks. She said it. 375 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,760 No. So we're all individuals. 376 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,720 So we're individual musicians. Like I'm thinking, how cool 377 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,160 would it be that because we play different instruments to like, 378 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:33,680 yes, we, we create a band ourselves and then but we still 379 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,960 have our own jobs and we've got our, you know, get roadies and, 380 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,520 you know, promote, you know, and record a demo tape and do all 381 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,200 those things, but a little bit more cooperative. 382 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:47,200 Yeah, it's Rock Hard Super Group. 383 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,760 There you go. Listen, if the idea is there, I 384 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:56,520 have, I've got, but it's just a matter of time and and do I want 385 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,080 to still be in the rock hard world versus all the other games 386 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,480 that I want to create? But I was thinking about how I 387 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,920 would do that this morning and how because if you're going to 388 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,840 do a Co-op, it's a great opportunity to make a solo game 389 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,400 because co-ops play really well solo. 390 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,200 So how do you do that? And I was actually, I get my 391 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,880 most creative ideas in the shower naturally. 392 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,640 So I was thinking about that as I was taking a shower this 393 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,720 morning. How do you you create a Co-op 394 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,960 but make it so that it really works with one or two players as 395 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,960 well? Like what do you need to format? 396 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,720 That is important. That's important because my wife 397 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,880 and I are both gamers and which is another reason why I don't 398 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,440 play solo because I've got a partner. 399 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:40,880 So we could play a lot of games together. 400 00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:45,520 And anytime we go to a board game convention or board game 401 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,200 cafe or whatever, it's like, how does this play at two players? 402 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,720 That's always the question, right? 403 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,000 That's what she asks right away. Yeah, too. 404 00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:57,760 I mean two player and then more players is is always difficult 405 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,600 because two player you've got give take and it's different 406 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,040 than what's that third or fourth or fifth player going to do, 407 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,280 right. And I will say it's probably the 408 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,360 biggest challenge as a designer is to make something that works 409 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:17,040 at 2:00 and is also good at multiplayer or vice versa. 410 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,320 So the answer for Rock Hard was to put in a dummy player. 411 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,400 It didn't want to have to create a separate deck that you had to 412 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,840 manage. I just went, you know, everybody 413 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,840 is trying to do the same thing. You're going to have a player 414 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,440 and you're going to know what they want to do on the next 415 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,480 turn, which is, you know, kind of what you know, even with real 416 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,240 life players, they're not going to do something wild because 417 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,360 there's nothing wild to do that you're going to be able to do. 418 00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:46,520 So you can see the dummy players moves coming. 419 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,640 They're never going to change their moves. 420 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,600 And it it works perfectly to simulate a third player that's 421 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,360 fighting for the same space as you are. 422 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,800 OK, that's cool. So the let's want to ask you 423 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,200 about the characters in the game. 424 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:00,840 So I guess my question is twofold. 425 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:05,440 Are they actually people that from the industry that you know, 426 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,400 are they just loosely based on people that you've encountered 427 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,120 in the industry? They're kind of mash ups of 428 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:13,960 people I know or types of people that I knew. 429 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,520 Yeah, there's a little of this, a little of that. 430 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,080 Except for the promo character of me, which is. 431 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:22,520 A. You. 432 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,680 Yeah, which I. Missed that which I missed out 433 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,960 on. I have every all the content. 434 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,280 I even have the beautiful color folded space insert for the 435 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,200 game. I don't have the promo of you. 436 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,880 I'll have to. I'll have to work on that. 437 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,820 We'll discuss. Mm. 438 00:23:40,820 --> 00:23:41,560 Hmm. Yeah, I could. 439 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,720 I do have Devere dug deep. After the wildfires we had in 440 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,360 Los Angeles last year, Devere did something really nice. 441 00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:52,160 I contacted them and said, hey, do you have any more promos 442 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,000 lying anywhere that I can auction off for Los Angeles Fire 443 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,520 relief? And they sent me about a dozen 444 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,360 and I still have a couple of them. 445 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,000 So, but they have been going for a lot of money, I will say, 446 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,760 which is really nice. I've been able to donate I think 447 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:12,520 like $3000 to fire relief and prevention. 448 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,280 And you know, knock wood. We're still just going to be 449 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,640 cleaning up last year's mess because it was bad. 450 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,200 I had to evacuate one night. And it was just like, aside from 451 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,600 saving my cats, that didn't really feel like cooperating, 452 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,760 right? You know, because they're cats I 453 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,360 had, I had just enough time to sit to take all my Runaways 454 00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:35,920 files and throw them into the back of the car. 455 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,760 So they're still sitting on my coffee table and organized 456 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,160 because I thought, I've got to get these into better easy shape 457 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,920 for evacuating, right? But I was like pulling out old 458 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,280 solo demos and things like that and going, this is irreplaceable 459 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:52,480 stuff. Right. 460 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,400 That's that's difficult growing up in Louisiana. 461 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,880 I'm not unfamiliar with natural disasters, but I think I haven't 462 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,280 gone through more than my fair share of floods. 463 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,320 I think I might would prefer a fire. 464 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,840 No, you wouldn't. So the reason why I say that is 465 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,320 if my entire house and all my belongings are gone because they 466 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:23,280 burned up in a flood, you have to sift through all your stuff 467 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:28,240 and it's molding and it's full of mud and it's water saturated 468 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,200 and it's just, it's so heart wrenching that I would almost 469 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:36,000 rather, OK, disaster comes and it's gone and I have no choice 470 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,840 but to start over again. That was how I ended up in 471 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,320 Illinois. My wife and I were like, she's 472 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,360 like, I can't do this anymore. We've had one too many floods 473 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:45,120 and was like, we're moving far away. 474 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,280 So that's how we ended up in Illinois. 475 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,520 Yeah, well, you can't climb on the roof to get away from a 476 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:51,720 fire. That is true. 477 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,600 That is, that is true. Yeah, it's scary because your 478 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,440 brain is just there going, you're going to die, you're 479 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,480 going to die, right? And I'm. 480 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,480 Sorry you had to go through. OK, we're going dark. 481 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:04,480 We're going. Yeah. 482 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,200 Well, I didn't know it was going to go here, but hey. 483 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,120 Well, you know what? I'm I I will tell you that the 484 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,240 the losing my board game collection would be the least of 485 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,200 it because at least you'd get the joy of going and buying new 486 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,040 board games. That's true, but your memories 487 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,920 so. This is true, but come on part I 488 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,960 mean it. There is a certain joy in 489 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,720 getting a new board game and the new board game smell, Yes. 490 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,800 It's kind of like. New cars smell only better. 491 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,920 I'm going to confess. OK? 492 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,600 When I got my first copy of my board game, the first thing I 493 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,280 did was open it up and sniff it. Well, yeah, isn't that what 494 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,840 everyone does? Sniff board games. 495 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,440 Guys, make sure to comment below when this airs and tell us if 496 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,760 you you like to when you open a board game, do you like to 497 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,720 sniff? I certainly do that fresh 498 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,000 cardboard. And if you can, and if you can, 499 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,440 combine it with a good box fart. Thank you. 500 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,600 If you can combine it with a good box fart, a good box fart, 501 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,440 and then a good sniff. Oh, yeah. 502 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,200 Fart and sniff. Yeah, yeah. 503 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,600 There's a there's a special kind of magic. 504 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,960 So the fart isn't it? So one of the things that the 505 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,240 other thing I noticed about some of the components in your game 506 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,200 is the use of acrylic instead of cardboard. 507 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaking of cardboard standees, was that a De Vere design thing? 508 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,160 Was that a design choice by you? Was that a cooperative decision? 509 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,680 I put stand in my game rather than anything else because I 510 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,920 wanted you to be able to see the art, you know, just the art of. 511 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:44,200 So to put you in the mind of what the 70s looked like, and 512 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:49,840 because I like seeing artwork of for characters and so I had 513 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,840 cardboard standees fit in plastic bases in the prototype. 514 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,600 And if you decided to do it in acrylic and that was such a 515 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,480 great, or maybe Maple Foundry did, I'm not sure who made the 516 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,200 decision. And it looks amazing. 517 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,640 And if you're buying the game, you just have to remember that 518 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,440 every acrylic piece in the game is covered by a little 519 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,880 protective film. So if you want those characters 520 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,200 and the bases and everything else that's acrylic to really 521 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,120 shine and look amazing, you gotta peel that film off. 522 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,640 You gotta peel the film, gotta peel the. 523 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,960 Film I was sitting there when they were going into the semi 524 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,880 final tables at the at the World Series because they they open 525 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,760 the boxes right there so that there's no, you know, nobody can 526 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,400 cheat at all. So they had to punch everything 527 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,600 and organize everything on the spot, which is why everything 528 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,920 went so late. So I was there and I'm like, I'm 529 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,800 the designer. I really shouldn't be touching 530 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,240 much. It's just like, give me all your 531 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,120 characters, though. I'm going to peel the acrylic 532 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,240 film off. Fill the film, yes. 533 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,600 That was what I did. So are you familiar with the 534 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,800 game Mystic Veil? Of course I do design days at 535 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,120 John Declare's house. That's amazing. 536 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,880 I have known that that's. I love John, about once every 537 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:13,160 couple of months he holds a game design and play testing session 538 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:14,800 at his house. That's cool. 539 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,080 Designers from all over Southern California go and hang out and 540 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,040 play games. Man, that's a dream. 541 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,320 So I bring it up cuz I was thinking about peeling the film. 542 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,400 We have all the content, including the big box. 543 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:32,560 It's one of my wife's top three, maybe top five favorite games of 544 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,200 all time, right? And we've had it for years. 545 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,040 And every time we play, she still finds cards. 546 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,160 She gotta peel the film off. So that's what she's doing. 547 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,640 When it's when it's not her turn, she's peeling the film. 548 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,040 You know, she just get some satisfaction from that. 549 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,800 There is something very, for me, relaxing about organizing board 550 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,080 games, about peeling off films, sleeping cards. 551 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,360 It's kind of like when the world gets really overwhelming. 552 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:03,080 Here's this little world that we can impose some organization on. 553 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:05,680 Yeah, I know. We're weird Board. 554 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,360 Gamers are board gamers, yes. I wouldn't say we're weird, I 555 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,120 think it's a perfectly normal and wonderful thing to do. 556 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,280 But we I agree, we have our little things. 557 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,440 Like what? Like people who don't play board 558 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,240 games would never understand this. 559 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,720 No, but I mean how many? Understand. 560 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,720 I I mean, I will periodically reorganize my board game shelves 561 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,840 and it's the same thing. It's like I get to impose order, 562 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,400 right? So yeah, so my wife and I are in 563 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,520 our professional lives. We're both archivists, so we're 564 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,720 always about describing and arranging records. 565 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,840 And in this case, I think about our board game collection 566 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,200 constantly. And I want to reorganize and I'm 567 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,400 like, but I can think of like, because there's no, because 568 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,520 unlike our, our work life, there are no best practices that I can 569 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,480 apply. There are no standards. 570 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,000 It's just whatever feels good to you. 571 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,520 And I'm like, well, I could organize them by publisher. 572 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,280 I could organize them by color. I can organize them by side. 573 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,400 Oh my God. And then my brain just kind of 574 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,680 goes crazy and I'm like, I need to record another episode. 575 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,840 For what it's worth, I went color and then what fits. 576 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,200 Legit. Right to maximize the space. 577 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,320 I think for me it's about size, it's about using the space well, 578 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,160 simply because. So we both have a commitment to 579 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,720 play every game in our collection a minimum of once 580 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,160 every calendar year. And that helps us. 581 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,480 Yeah. And we're at 81.6% of our 582 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,360 collection played so far this year. 583 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,240 So we don't, we don't have much farther to go. 584 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,560 To be fair, we only have 300 games, right? 585 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,720 With three hundreds, kind of where we keep it. 586 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,800 I'm impressed. My my game groups in Los Angeles 587 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,720 tend to be very much cult of the new. 588 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,200 So we have a lot of people that back Kickstarters. 589 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,640 There are a couple of content creators. 590 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,760 So between us we have a lot of new games and we tend not to go 591 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,520 back to old ones, which I kind of find frustrating because I 592 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,800 never get good at particular games. 593 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,800 And there are games that I very much like, would like to play 594 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,680 enough to get good at, but you know, in your fantasy your game 595 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,360 group enjoys. Exactly. 596 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,920 The games that you do or a pretty good overlap. 597 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,680 And in practice, we don't at all. 598 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,480 So there's this tiny little slice of the Venn diagram and we 599 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,560 keep trying new games to see what fits in there, you know? 600 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,280 And you end up, you don't want to end up where people are just 601 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,440 kind of like, yeah, we can play that one. 602 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,320 I won't veto it, But nobody's excited. 603 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,600 So we keep looking for that game that we're going to get excited 604 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,960 about. And the closest we've found, I 605 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,160 think, as a group is Darwin's Journey. 606 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,240 Good one. It's a really good. 607 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,800 Journey is. That's such a great game. 608 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,360 I lose it every time we play. I don't lose every time, but 609 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,480 most of the time, and that's simply because my wife is 610 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,280 smarter than I am. It's such a we. 611 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,920 In fact, I did an entire episode just dedicated on Darwin's 612 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,240 journey probably about two years ago because it's just such a 613 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,600 great, great game and great experience. 614 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,040 What games? So when you, I know you said 615 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,680 that when you decided to make a game, you were talking about the 616 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,720 experience. Were there any board games that 617 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,360 inspired you in your process of creating? 618 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,240 Oh yeah, Abomination era Frankenstein was a big one. 619 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,680 Yeah. Because I, I wanted that game. 620 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,920 Just when I saw the artwork and the theme on it and I went, oh, 621 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,840 this is dark, I have to get this. 622 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,320 And it's definitely it's an event game, right? 623 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,360 It's not the game you're going to pull down from the shelf 624 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,760 every week and want to play it because it does require some 625 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,960 setup time. It it the one valid criticism is 626 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,160 it does run a little long. There is now. 627 00:33:54,560 --> 00:34:21,120 But those aren't the best body. Parts if you really get 628 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,719 desperate, you can go out into the alley and you know, or use 629 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,719 some animal parts. It's, I mean, it's a little 630 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,639 twisted, but it's, it's very God, I'm I love Gothic or. 631 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:32,880 Sure. I who doesn't. 632 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,560 So it was when I played that it was kind of that feeling where 633 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,800 you're you're doing the euro things, then you've got this 634 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:46,080 very Ameritrash excuse the expression moment where you're 635 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,159 trying to bring your monster to life and maybe it'll work, maybe 636 00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:52,840 it won't. And I just I love these games 637 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,240 like that and and since then like distilled where you have a 638 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,280 little bit of that excitement layered over the euro. 639 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:07,040 So it's pure euro. Gamers tend to have an issue 640 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,520 with that. But I do want that experience. 641 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,600 Am I going to get my, my these parts to life? 642 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,120 Am I going to, do I have enough ingredients in this VAT that I'm 643 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,720 going to be able to distill the liquor that I want? 644 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,440 Yeah, You know, am I, am I going to push my luck consuming candy 645 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,400 to get extra actions? Am I gonna, am I going to have a 646 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,640 sugar crash and have to spend my next daytime action recovering? 647 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:33,760 Right. So there's a little bit of that. 648 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,120 What's gonna happen that I think I enjoy in the game? 649 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,400 Yes, that's beautiful. I would never have put those two 650 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,120 together, but that experience, thank you for that. 651 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:47,680 You're welcome. I was. 652 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,800 That's incredible. Yeah. 653 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:51,240 I never would imagine. I love it. 654 00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:53,680 That's awesome. So I gotta ask, have you, do you 655 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,400 own or have you had a chance to play my father's work? 656 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,440 I wanted to play that right when it came out and we had set up a 657 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,480 night to play it because a friend has it and there was 658 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,320 always somebody who couldn't make it on the particular day, 659 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,880 so I have not played it. Do it, do it. 660 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,080 It's Halloween's approaching. It's the perfect time. 661 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,200 Yeah, I know. I am curious to see whether I'm 662 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,760 going to like it because I, I tend to have issues with games 663 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,840 that have a lot of story that can be randomized. 664 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,000 So we'll see. There might be a very specific 665 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:26,760 story that emerges, and I and I will. 666 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,800 Are you happy with that? There, there is so each, so 667 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,280 there's three boxes, right? So there's three kind of 668 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,600 narratives going on. So you choose one box to play, 669 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:43,080 and then each box has eight unique endings so that there's a 670 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:48,720 total of 24 different narratives that you can play through based 671 00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:51,760 on the choices you make. But it's really beautifully 672 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,840 done. The theme is fantastic. 673 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,960 I'm normally not an app driven gamer. 674 00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:02,200 I'm not a fan of app driven games where it's dependent upon 675 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,680 an app and it it had some problems in the beginning. 676 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,560 Thankfully as the years have gone on, they've since fixed all 677 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,200 that. But it's worth checking out how 678 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,920 you can play that solo. You can play that with two, you 679 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,520 can play with three, or you can. Play with. 680 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,920 I'm going to see if I can get that set up with the person who 681 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,760 has it because it was, it was very high on my list when it 682 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,880 came out. And it's sort of, I don't want 683 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,600 to say it's the desire to play has fallen by the wayside, but 684 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,760 this is that we have, there's so many great games that come out 685 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,920 every year because they, you know, there are also so many 686 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,360 mediocre games that come out every year. 687 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,600 There's just people trying to create, you know, get that 688 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,360 content out and not doing, honestly not doing enough play 689 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,280 testing when it comes down to is that when you have a great 690 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,800 design and you have mechanisms that work with the theme, you 691 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,840 still have to play test, play test, play, test. 692 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,280 And that is really the key to coming up with a great game. 693 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,520 And there's no there is no short circuit in that. 694 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,480 It sounds like you had a good group you could like initially 695 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,520 when you were creating rock hard that you could. 696 00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:11,720 You had a group of play testers ready to go early on it sounds 697 00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:13,640 like. Well, first play test was with 698 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,320 my regular, my most regular gaming group, and I'm not sure 699 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,560 who was more nervous them or me, but I had done, I had play 700 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,520 tested it over. You know, I didn't do anything 701 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,240 right at the beginning of this game to tell you the truth, 702 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:32,440 because you're supposed to get your play tests out early, proof 703 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,360 of concept, even if the game breaks down. 704 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,480 And I wanted to make sure that for my gaming group, I didn't 705 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,120 give them a game that was going to break. 706 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,680 So I played it over and over, just myself at every different 707 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:46,840 player account. And then when I was confident 708 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,760 that they were going to be able to get a whole game and put it 709 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,240 before them, and then they were all very surprised, I think. 710 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:55,440 So I don't think they expected that much. 711 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,040 And they actually had a really good time. 712 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,200 And then they made some suggestions. 713 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,240 I tweaked it. I mean, the hardest part was 714 00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:05,640 that I never got to take shop when I was growing up in school 715 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,280 because I was a girl. You know, I'd say, I want to 716 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:10,840 take shop. And they would say, well, no, 717 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,560 you're a girl, you can't take shop, take chemistry, whatever. 718 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,920 So I don't do well making things with my hands. 719 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,760 And I knew I wanted certain things in the game. 720 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,320 So just even learning how to prototype a board. 721 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,040 I'm also very verbal. I'm somebody that doesn't do 722 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,040 well with a lot of icons. Like like one game that has come 723 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,160 out this year that all my friends love and that I thought 724 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,320 I was going to be absolutely crazy about his galactic cruise. 725 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:44,640 And I probably would be if I sat down and could really learn the 726 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,040 icons. But I sit down to play and I'm 727 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:48,920 just like, what does this mean? What does this mean? 728 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:50,480 What does this mean? I don't. 729 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,200 I do not learn icons easily and that has a lot of them. 730 00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:02,240 So for me, my original board was all words and for people who 731 00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:06,360 don't do words well, it was a hot mess and I finally was so 732 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,760 frustrated trying to convert that to visual language. 733 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,320 I think I went on to Twitter and I said I hate prototyping. 734 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,720 So much I'm thinking of not designing games. 735 00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:20,440 And Jeff Engelstein, who is a very good game designer, offered 736 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,320 to help me with it just kind of out of nowhere. 737 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,400 And he gave me a sound like literally did it with me on a 738 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,320 zoom with him, just banged it out and it wasn't exactly usable 739 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,600 the way he did it. But I went, I see this now. 740 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,680 And then I went and created the board that I ultimately sold to 741 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,840 a publisher. So it's that we have different 742 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,040 board gaming language. And yes, in an ideal world, you, 743 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,720 you have a game that you can put both words and icons on, right? 744 00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:53,200 So that people who process information visually versus 745 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,280 people who are more verbal can both play the game. 746 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,760 And there's not always room to do that, unfortunately. 747 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,480 So as a designer, you were talking about how many. 748 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,600 There's just, there's so many games coming out. 749 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:10,360 So as a designer with other game ideas that you would like to put 750 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,120 together, potentially publish going forward in the future, 751 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:20,040 what is your take on the sheer number of games that are coming 752 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,440 out every year? Do you think it's just enough? 753 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,400 Do you think we're over saturated? 754 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:26,640 Do you think that the industry's at risk? 755 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,960 Or just all the other things that are going on? 756 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:30,080 What? Do you think I don't think the 757 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,400 industry's at risk? I think they're, I think it's 758 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,280 kind of like with you look at like television, right? 759 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,800 You have so many possibilities. A few shows are going to float 760 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,880 to the top. They'll they'll somehow 761 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,880 breakthrough the noise. It's a little bit arbitrary. 762 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,240 They're they're all going to be good ones. 763 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,360 A lot of good ones get lost and unfortunately don't get the 764 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,080 backing that they probably deserve. 765 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,640 I think it's the same with board games right now. 766 00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,760 Yeah, I think there is. There's a lot of content, just a 767 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,920 lot. Now tariffs are going to take 768 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,040 that down for the next next year or so. 769 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,200 So there weren't as many hotly anticipated titles this past 770 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,560 Gen. Con as there were in 2024, for 771 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,800 instance. And I don't know whether we'll. 772 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:15,480 Recover. I definitely noticed that. 773 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,640 Yeah. So it's going to take a couple 774 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,920 of years I think to completely recover and you're going to see 775 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,840 designers pivoting to less component heavy games that can 776 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,240 maybe be produced in the US or in Europe. 777 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,640 But the problem is that just production capacity for making 778 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,400 games does reside mostly in China. 779 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,200 Yes. There's not enough money in 780 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:43,160 board games to make to have it make financial sense to create 781 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,560 that infrastructure in the US even if we wanted to. 782 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:51,040 China is just uniquely set up to crank out certain types of 783 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,240 products. So for instance, I have a lot of 784 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:57,680 alcohol ink markers. And you start to see after a 785 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,480 while that at the lower end of the market, there is somewhere 786 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,200 in China, there is, there are a couple of companies that make 787 00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:09,080 the shells, the actual plastic parts of the pens themselves. 788 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:15,400 There are other companies that make ink and they work together 789 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,680 to fill orders. So you go to one that makes the 790 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,840 shell and you have your brand name printed on them. 791 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,480 And then you order the ink from somewhere and they combine them. 792 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,480 And after a while you start to see these two companies get 793 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,320 their ink from the same place because they're the same colors. 794 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,640 And these two get their shells from the same place because 795 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,560 they're the same shape. And you start, you get a 796 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:47,000 preference on your on the lower end side and they're, and it's 797 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,480 kind of they're just, it's like we talk about bringing 798 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,400 manufacturing to the US, but we do, it's not something that 799 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,440 makes sense in every industry. Right, right. 800 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,080 Absolutely. So talking about color, so there 801 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,120 seems to be if you just if you look at rock hard, if you open 802 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,160 up the box and you even see this a little bit, if you look at the 803 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,040 color insert from folded space, the one color that stands out is 804 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:11,440 the color red. Yes. 805 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,840 Was that it? Was that a design choice by you, 806 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,240 or is that just a kind of? Well, we talk, I had a lot of 807 00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:21,840 conversations with Devere about the color scheme because I 808 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,880 wanted it to be colors that are associated with the 70s. 809 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,120 Now to take somebody who wasn't really alive in the 70s and 810 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,040 explain the difference between 1972 and 1977 is a really 811 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,640 challenging. So we a lot of the game looks 812 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:42,520 more 1967 than 1977. I can point like I'm just 813 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,000 looking at the cover behind you. So let's just talk. 814 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,520 Pants in 1977 were actually pretty high rise. 815 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,160 Those low rise pants went out in the early 70s. 816 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,880 I noticed this, but I mean, the artist is, you know, I'm be be 817 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,640 shocked if she's 30 years old. She's really young. 818 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,360 So she's got the like, if you look at the there, there are a 819 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,600 lot of people with facial hair in that audience. 820 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,160 Facial hair was pretty much gone in the late 70s. 821 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,920 So it's it's we're just going to say these people were fans in 822 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,000 the 60s and never updated their wardrobe. 823 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,640 But the shirt you might kind of recognize because the shirt on 824 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:28,920 the cover is models on a shirt famously worn by Robert Plant, 825 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,960 who allegedly, Oh my. Gosh. 826 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,080 I don't know if this is true. OK, this isn't might be an urban 827 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:42,120 legend that Robert Plant stage shirts were women's shirts and 828 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,920 it was who that he took from whoever he had been with the 829 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,200 night before. That is super interesting. 830 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,360 So yeah, yeah, that's why so hence the reason the shirts were 831 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,280 never button. They're too small. 832 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:56,520 Are the things you learn when you. 833 00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:01,040 Yeah, but I mean, not not even just the cover, there's like 834 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,320 even though all the player mats, right, the player characters are 835 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,400 there, they have their own color scheme. 836 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,160 Yes, that's true. But it seems like the color red 837 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:16,360 just kind of, if one could say is playing Rock Hard 1977, you 838 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:21,000 just feel the color red. I think because this wasn't that 839 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,800 wasn't my decision the the coloring on the board, although 840 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,400 I wanted it slightly different, but the idea was here a 70s 841 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,160 colors and three of the colors that were really big in the 70s 842 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:37,440 and really the 60s that I grew up with were avocado green 843 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,320 harvest gold. And I forget what they called 844 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,480 the kind of orange color. But as one of the other 845 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:47,400 publishers that had the game before De Vere said, it doesn't 846 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,240 really matter if it's exactly right from the 70s. 847 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,080 People think the 70s look like sure. 848 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,120 So then there is there is a modern movement. 849 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,000 Like you'll notice new games. Green is usually not a player 850 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,560 color anymore. I've been noticing that even 851 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,920 though green is like everybody's like their favorite player color 852 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:10,120 except for mine but. Well, I play red, so, you know, 853 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:14,640 I, I used to play, I used to play any color. 854 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,400 And then when the pandemic hit and we were all playing on board 855 00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:21,120 game arena, it has you pick your favorite color, right. 856 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:25,320 And, and our group, we just settled into these particular 857 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,120 roles. So I'm the red player. 858 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,480 Sure, OK. And if I now if I sit down and I 859 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,800 play with somebody else who plays red and I, I'm always nice 860 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,800 and I say, OK, you just you go ahead, play red. 861 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,000 I'll play whatever. But I will get confused, refused 862 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:39,800 and try to move the other persons thesis. 863 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,120 I do this if someone is playing purple and it's not me. 864 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:45,480 I'm like. Oops. 865 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:50,640 But so some of that is for for visually impaired people with 866 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:55,040 color blindness to take the tones away. 867 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,800 Although the problem is that then you back into visual 868 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,600 acuity. So as being somewhat older where 869 00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,360 our color contrast goes off a little bit, I sometimes have 870 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,120 trouble distinguishing in low light between red and orange to 871 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,760 red and pink. And but I never have trouble 872 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,240 distinguishing when it's Kitty lunchtime. 873 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,040 This is Peanut. Peanut helps me greatly with 874 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,760 game design because she'll just go on to the table and she'll 875 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,880 swat components off and she'll go, yeah, too many components, 876 00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:26,280 you don't need that. I love it. 877 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:31,160 So I was thinking about you. So you're early on when you're 878 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,400 designing? She likes Billy rubs. 879 00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,840 What cat doesn't right? Our cats love belly rubs. 880 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:39,920 So you're designing rock hard and at some point you've got a 881 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,560 decision to make. Do you self publish through 882 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,920 Kickstarter or some sort of a? That wasn't ever a decision. 883 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,080 I was never a decision. No, I am not an organized 884 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:50,800 person. OK. 885 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:56,200 So then based upon that, what advice would you give to someone 886 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,120 who is in that situation? They're designing their first 887 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,400 game and they're debating, Do I give up all the control to a 888 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,040 publisher or do I publish myself on Kickstarter? 889 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,720 Because that's a conversation I had a lot with Designer. 890 00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,920 But I love that you're very definitive and I would love to 891 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:12,920 hear your thoughts about that. If you're going to do a 892 00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:43,000 Kickstarter, the publishers so that you can see what goes into 893 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:46,440 the process, but you got to remember that you're going to 894 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:51,680 have a contract for your game. And so in my contract, one of 895 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,360 the things that was really important to me with Rock Hard 896 00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:58,160 because I thought it was such an important selling point on the 897 00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,680 game, was to have the player boards be amplifiers. 898 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,120 So it is literally in my contract that the player boards 899 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,200 must be amplifiers with not that you can turn. 900 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,120 That because interesting. That was, I mean, I, I don't 901 00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,240 want to tell you too much of what is in my contract because I 902 00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:18,120 think that's not fair to devere, but I will say that that you 903 00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,160 have some control. If there is an element or an 904 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:25,880 aspect of your game that is for you the hill you're willing to 905 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:31,560 die on, you got to put in the contract and it's you. 906 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,560 You're not powerless. You don't just have to sign the 907 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,680 contract that the company puts in front of you. 908 00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:41,720 You can negotiate things because really it is a partnership. 909 00:50:41,720 --> 00:50:45,960 And you decide if if I want this very much to be my game and I'm 910 00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,160 afraid then I'm going to negotiate approvals into the 911 00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:53,480 contract or where I'm going to go take on the responsibilities 912 00:50:53,720 --> 00:50:56,640 of running a crowdfunding campaign, overseeing 913 00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:58,320 fulfillment. Maybe you don't care. 914 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:00,680 Maybe you're like, I designed this cool game here, you guys 915 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:02,080 take it, do whatever you want with it. 916 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:06,320 Like I'm kind of there with the next game that will probably get 917 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,600 published. Is is just really fun. 918 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:14,800 It's it's less personal to me. Hey, you guys want to make 919 00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:18,920 changes, make changes. I don't have the same investment 920 00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:22,280 in it being a particular way, so it tends. 921 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,120 Well, thank you for that. I think that that's a unique 922 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,720 perspective that I have not heard anyone share before. 923 00:51:28,720 --> 00:51:31,960 And I'm sure I've got first time designers listening who would at 924 00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,040 least appreciate that because I know that's a conversation I 925 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:36,880 have. You know, I, I had that 926 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,800 conversation with so many designers and it's like, why did 927 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:41,080 you? And then the other one is why'd 928 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:43,240 you choose Kickstarter over game found or some other guy? 929 00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:46,440 Like I am not a designer. I never will be a designer 930 00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,680 because I'm just don't, I have too many ideas and not enough. 931 00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:51,440 So that's not a decision I would have to make. 932 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:55,320 When you go, the reason you, I mean, we go to conventions 933 00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,080 because it's a lot of fun and we want to see what's out there. 934 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,320 But the other thing is if you're a designer, you want to go and 935 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:05,920 meet publishers, you want to talk to them because it they'll 936 00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,400 start helping you with things and they'll look out for you and 937 00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,880 they'll remember you. And if and every single time 938 00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,560 you're interacting with the designer, make it a good 939 00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:17,920 interaction. Don't be remembered for the 940 00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,720 wrong reason. You know, have a smile on your 941 00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:22,240 face. Understand that they're 942 00:52:22,240 --> 00:52:24,560 primarily out of convention to sell. 943 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,400 Don't interrupt their sell their sales, but be polite. 944 00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:30,960 Talk to the person you need to talk to. 945 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,880 Introduce yourself. Be prepared if you're not 946 00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,320 pitching. If you are pitching, set up your 947 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:39,000 meetings in advance if you can, because you'll know that it's 948 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,160 somebody who's receptive to what you've got. 949 00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,120 And there are a lot of things that you need to do in order to 950 00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,560 do that. There's a ton of really good 951 00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:49,440 advice on the Internet about how to do that. 952 00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,920 But even if you're and not selling a particular game, just 953 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,120 going to meeting people. Yeah, yeah. 954 00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,320 You know, that's, that's great. She is. 955 00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:59,880 Remember I said the cat was gonna chew on something? 956 00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:02,200 Sure, cords, She's chewing on the cord. 957 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,920 She's chewing on the cords. Yep, that's normal let. 958 00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,200 Me see if my cat. She's wonderful, absolutely. 959 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,040 She will pull my she'll pull my phone onto the floor. 960 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:15,040 She, she is. She pushes water glasses onto 961 00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:17,000 the floor. It's like, oh, broken glass gets 962 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,560 mom's attention. Spilled water, yeah. 963 00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:25,120 Broken glass, yeah. That's that's the worst. 964 00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,800 That's why we have lids on our our water cups now. 965 00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,280 Yeah. It's like we drink sippy cups so 966 00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,760 that the cats can't still. All of the images turned on the 967 00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,120 stove one day. Really. 968 00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:36,880 That's crazy. Yeah. 969 00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:40,200 Fortunately I was sitting here and I heard the click click 970 00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:44,160 click of a gas stove starting and ran out before she could 971 00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,040 bring out the gas company. And now I've got childproof 972 00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:47,760 caps. Yep. 973 00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:51,600 So, but she meeting, meeting people at conventions, it's all 974 00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,760 about those relationships. Yeah, I mean, one, one of the 975 00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:59,760 things is for me, it is really important to have diversity and 976 00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:04,400 board games and inclusivity. So it's when I was play testing 977 00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,160 rock hard, I happen to notice this and it's like an 978 00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:12,360 unconscious thing. So first play test, I had a play 979 00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:16,680 tester of Asian descent and she immediately ran and gravitated 980 00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:21,040 toward Kimmy Kim, my gay neighbor, who I brought in as 981 00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:24,480 the the very casual gamer, just to see if you could pick it up. 982 00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:29,520 Gamer came in and immediately went to one of the androgynous 983 00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,920 characters. It was like you kind of want to, 984 00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,920 when you're starting out gaming, play yourself or see yourself in 985 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:41,080 the game is really good about making their games inclusive. 986 00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:45,760 And they are willing to do games on unusual themes. 987 00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:50,480 So they've done, you know, circuses in early 20th century 988 00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:54,080 America. They've done, they did Jerusalem 989 00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:58,040 and where you're trying to get close to Jesus at the Last 990 00:54:58,040 --> 00:54:58,960 Supper. Yes. 991 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:03,520 And it's like, OK, you're trying to complete Mozart's last work. 992 00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:05,720 I went, they're going to get this theme and that. 993 00:55:05,720 --> 00:55:07,560 Also, as it turns out, they're rockers. 994 00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,800 So it ended up being a really perfect company. 995 00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,600 But the thing that finally sold me on them was the player boards 996 00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:16,720 and Lacrimosa. So I don't know if you've played 997 00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:18,640 Lacrimosa. I have it behind me. 998 00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:21,160 They are. Fantastic. 999 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:25,560 Stunning, yes, it's a stunning production and I went they will 1000 00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,200 do these amplifier player boards justice. 1001 00:55:28,720 --> 00:55:30,640 Yep. And they're not going to be put 1002 00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:34,760 off by a theme that is, you know, space or nature and all 1003 00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:38,240 this stuff that's kind of proven to be successful over and over 1004 00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:40,080 and over. They'll do interesting things. 1005 00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:44,160 They'll take a risk on first time designers and so it ended 1006 00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,000 up being a really good match. So they. 1007 00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,280 Got the thing? So there you go, do your do your 1008 00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:54,000 homework, do your research, have a good pitch and don't be known 1009 00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,160 for you said it beautifully earlier. 1010 00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:58,880 Don't be known for the like. It had something to do with 1011 00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,840 being negative. Every interaction that you have 1012 00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:06,920 with the publisher, no matter how casual, just should be a +1 1013 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,840 for them, right? They may not remember you, but 1014 00:56:10,240 --> 00:56:12,040 they're somewhere in their brain. 1015 00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:16,200 They're going to start associating positive things with 1016 00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,480 interacting with you. And it's really important 1017 00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,560 because there there may come a time during the design process 1018 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:25,840 where you are going to have an unpopular opinion that you want 1019 00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:29,160 to fight for. My first conversation with David 1020 00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,400 Asbury, who runs De Vere, because I was when we were 1021 00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,560 negotiating the contract and I said, can we just agree that 1022 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,880 our, our relationship for negotiating contract things is 1023 00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,040 completely separate from our working together on the design 1024 00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:43,920 of the game. So because I'm coming from a 1025 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,480 world where I negotiate and I am going to be a little bit 1026 00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:51,200 demanding on my own behalf because that's what I did for a 1027 00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:53,360 living. And then when I'm a designer, I 1028 00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,120 will work with you and be really cooperative. 1029 00:56:56,320 --> 00:57:00,520 And so David understood what he was getting into with me and 1030 00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:02,960 didn't mind when I asked for things. 1031 00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,520 And if they weren't going to do it, he just said no. 1032 00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,200 You know, it's a dialogue, right? 1033 00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:13,040 So as long as you are polite about it and you're trying to 1034 00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:17,240 find solutions, company is not going to get mad that you ask 1035 00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,200 for something. And you just have to know what 1036 00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:24,440 is it you must have and you're willing to walk away from the 1037 00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:26,320 negotiating table if you don't get it. 1038 00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:30,600 And I had three things that were important enough to me to be put 1039 00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,040 in the contract. They were smaller things that de 1040 00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,400 Vere does anyway and we're happy to say yes to. 1041 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:38,480 And then I had a conversation with them. 1042 00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,400 I said I don't want a IR, and I actually asked for it in the 1043 00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:43,200 contract. And they said, well, we won't 1044 00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:45,960 put in the contract, but you should know we never use it. 1045 00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:48,680 And they didn't. And they hired Jenny to do the 1046 00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:52,360 artwork. They actually, we discussed art 1047 00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:56,160 styles they found. I sent them some artists whose 1048 00:57:56,160 --> 00:58:00,240 work I liked and they didn't care for it exactly. 1049 00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:04,840 They proposed somebody to me. I think he's got a really unique 1050 00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,560 perspective on things. But I didn't think he was right 1051 00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,680 for rock hard. So they found four other artists 1052 00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:12,840 and they and this had been after some back and forth and they 1053 00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:14,920 just said here you get to veto 2 of them. 1054 00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,760 So I vetoed 2 of them and of the two that were left they picked 1055 00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:23,200 Jenny and. Well, she did great work 1056 00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:24,880 because. She did amazing work. 1057 00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,320 Fantastic. And she's just, she's such a 1058 00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:31,640 nice person. I'm so honored to have created 1059 00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:33,880 these. These wouldn't I only had one 1060 00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,920 conversation with her, which was a funny conversation because she 1061 00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:40,880 doesn't really speak English. I kind of remember a few phrases 1062 00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:45,560 of Spanish. I remember I said to her that 1063 00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:51,040 was larger than life and I said Masusia, which is dirty or not 1064 00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:56,640 in a sexually dirty manner, but just literally dirty grungy, you 1065 00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,560 know, but I don't want to say I don't know how to say grungy. 1066 00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:02,560 But those were the, that's all I said to her in Spanish, but 1067 00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:06,720 through a translator, I said, these are our children. 1068 00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:09,440 There's going to be some of me in it and some of you. 1069 00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:13,720 And that's OK. So I did, I did BIOS for her and 1070 00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:17,760 a little summary that maybe somebody translated into Spanish 1071 00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,600 so she would know kind of who the characters are. 1072 00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:23,800 And then after she did them, I had to change those BIOS 1073 00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:27,240 slightly to match her artwork and that was fine too. 1074 00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,120 Well, I think you came up with a masterpiece together. 1075 00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,160 I'm thankful. I love playing every time it 1076 00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:35,360 hits the table. Jackie, thank you so much for 1077 00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,840 joining me. Thank you for your honesty. 1078 00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,520 Thank you for your advice and input, sharing with my 1079 00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:43,960 listeners, people on the socials where people can find you if 1080 00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:47,080 they want to talk to you more about your game or just anything 1081 00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:50,040 in general. You can find me on Facebook. 1082 00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:54,680 Jackie Fox 1976. Go figure. 1083 00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,320 And I'm on Instagram. Well, this one's going to be 1084 00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:00,240 harder. I think you can just search for 1085 01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,360 Jackie Fox because it's easier than remembering Foxy. 1086 01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,680 It was, it was created as a lurker account, so it never 1087 01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:09,760 planned on having any kind of social media presence and. 1088 01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:13,600 Now you're everywhere. I am everywhere but if you but I 1089 01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,360 am, look, you're going to you're going to come up with two Jackie 1090 01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:19,840 Foxes on socials and one's going to be an Irish reporter. 1091 01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:23,680 That's true. That's the other Jackie Fox. 1092 01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:28,480 Well, thank you once again. And guys, Please remember to hit 1093 01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,560 the like and subscribe button. And we're just going to keep 1094 01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:33,600 pushing forward. I've got a new series that I've 1095 01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:37,040 been working on that's going to be coming out here just before 1096 01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:39,520 Halloween. So be on the lookout for that. 1097 01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:43,440 And as always, be kind to one another and play more games. 1098 01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:44,160 Hard agree.