1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,640 Hey guys, and welcome to episode 123 of Meeple to Meeple 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:09,000 Publishing on hard Mode. As always, I'm PJ. 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,560 And So what we're going to do is today we're going to talk about 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:18,960 trying to publish your first game in this period of Division 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,760 and Discord and all of the grossness that's around. 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:24,640 But we're going to have a positive message for you. 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,880 I've got Sean and Michael from Glasshouse Games. 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,000 Sean, Mike, how are you guys doing? 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,040 We are. Well, I can't speak from you, 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,040 but I am. Well, I'm great. 11 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:36,360 I'm great. I'm happy to be here. 12 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:38,280 Thank you, PJ for having us. Yeah, thanks for having us. 13 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:38,720 This is. Great. 14 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,320 Yeah, thanks for being on. I'm really interested to just 15 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,000 talk to you guys. I've got so many questions about 16 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,880 y'all, so many questions. But I guess we should let's get 17 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,040 get it out of the way. Why did I invite you guys on? 18 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,280 Right. So y'all really like Launch a 19 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,880 game called Whisker Wars on May 13th, correct? 20 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:02,240 Excellent. So I thought it was really 21 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,600 interesting because everything that's happening right now, you 22 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,520 are entering, you're entering both the game community and the 23 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,480 game industry. So you know you're seeing it 24 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,160 from you've got 2 lenses that you're looking at this from 1 as 25 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,680 a business and another as a gamer, right? 26 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,800 So who wants to start off and talk a little bit about that? 27 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:24,760 I I'm happy to. You want to pop into it? 28 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:25,400 Yeah. So. 29 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,200 Yeah. So Sean and I and Logan, who's 30 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,480 not here, our third, our brain behind the operation, we're all 31 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,880 gamers at heart. So we've been a part of the 32 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:35,920 gaming community for as long as we can remember. 33 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:37,920 Start of the video games, then got at the tabletop. 34 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:39,520 So we are super happy to be here. 35 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,520 It's the best community I think I've ever been a part of. 36 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,600 And now we get to hopefully one day make games for that same 37 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,280 community we've got to enjoy for so long. 38 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,200 Yeah. So it's a huge motivating factor 39 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,680 for us to go forward to your sort of question. 40 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:57,960 It is a unfortunately volatile moment in the industry with the 41 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,720 sort of state of the worldwide economy and everything that's 42 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:03,280 kind of going on, it's hard to avoid. 43 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,840 So there is a big sort of question mark on how we are 44 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,680 proceeding forward. Why now is a big one. 45 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,720 We kind of get a lot, a lot of people don't think it's like, 46 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:14,040 oh, why are you choosing right now? 47 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,440 We've chosen this sort of time frame a long time ago. 48 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:18,800 Sure. We've been building up to this 49 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,000 moment and thankfully the ramp has been great. 50 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,960 We've had this kind of really motivating snowball effect of 51 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,440 just like growing community around us and people were really 52 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,120 supportive. So the moment feels right for 53 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,040 us. Can't say this is the same for 54 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:34,360 everyone across the board. And Sean, I can, I can see 55 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,920 you're itching for. Yeah, I do. 56 00:02:36,920 --> 00:02:39,360 I mean, I, this always happens where you say something happens. 57 00:02:39,640 --> 00:02:42,360 I want to piggyback off that. I was gonna like add to this 58 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,760 just, and I think we can talk about more of this later, but 59 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,280 the community itself. And yes, grew up in games, but 60 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,640 like intentionally participating in the community, right, right. 61 00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:55,840 Has led to interactions and relationships that are so 62 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,720 uplifting and positive that I think it would take a lot more 63 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,800 than what's going on right now for us to be deterred from 64 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,520 participating in the industry. The support we've gotten, the 65 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,240 feedback back, the encouragement, Yeah, it's gonna 66 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:09,640 take a lot. I think it's gonna take a lot 67 00:03:09,640 --> 00:03:11,840 more than. And this is not to discount. 68 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,040 Yeah, the industry, absolutely, absolutely. 69 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,680 But like, we want in and and it's for the like the people. 70 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:21,880 Like I love games. There's a million great games 71 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,680 out there. I'm never gonna play them all, 72 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,200 but I would like to meet everybody and like, play games 73 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,240 with those people. So like if right now that means 74 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,400 fighting through an uncomfortable situation with our 75 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:34,960 launch, then I'm still happy to do it. 76 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,240 I love it. Sean, tell me, did you also like 77 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,200 Michael start in video games or how did how did your journey 78 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,000 begin? My parents hated video games. 79 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,920 They're like no video games, Never, ever. 80 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,200 And then my uncle brought home APS 2 and that was the answer. 81 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,320 Little bit of yes, a little bit. I don't know if my mic is too 82 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,080 loud, but a little bit of yes, a little bit of no. 83 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,320 My dad was a big chess player, so he taught, He taught. 84 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,560 I have two younger brothers, so he taught me chess and then I 85 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,480 taught them chess from a really young age. 86 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,200 I'm still not great at it. It's the cruel mistress. 87 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,840 Yeah, I love playing, but it's not always, it doesn't always 88 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:13,920 love me back. So I started early with logic 89 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,399 games and stuff like that. And then like also diving early 90 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,680 the into fantasy, like Lord of the Rings and Star Wars were 91 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:19,839 huge. I grew up on those. 92 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,400 So it was always in the lexicon of my upbringing. 93 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,120 I played Magic the gaping before I knew how to play. 94 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,440 I would just look at the cards and then be like, my dragon is 95 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,240 obviously bigger than your dragon. 96 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,840 And there we go. I win and my brothers be like, 97 00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:36,600 that's not fair. I won so so it was all there and 98 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,160 then yes and then like video games came in and just the love 99 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,840 of play was huge, big deal. Like the love of play. 100 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:44,920 And it still remains something I hold very dearly because it's 101 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,320 that one moment where you and I can relate and we can relate 102 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,120 outside of reality and still in a healthy way, right, right. 103 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,040 Without it being like, you know, there are unhealthy ways to 104 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,280 relate outside of reality where you just kind of absolutely off 105 00:04:56,280 --> 00:04:57,360 on the range. But then. 106 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,800 Absolutely. This can be something healthy we 107 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,640 do together and something that actually contributes to our in 108 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,760 real life relationship, right. That has no real stakes other 109 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,960 than the king is missing who shall claim the the throne kind 110 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:12,160 of thing, Yeah. I love this. 111 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,840 That is, that is great. And I have a follow up question. 112 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,360 But before that, before that, I'm not going to disappoint 113 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,440 everyone. I have a quote from an ancient 114 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,960 philosopher that's relevant to what you just said. 115 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,160 You were talking about play has always been in your life and you 116 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:30,160 love play and everything. So this is an amazing quote from 117 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,240 the Greek philosopher Plato. He said that you can discover 118 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:39,160 more about a person from an hour of play than you can from a year 119 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,000 of conversation. I love. 120 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,680 That. Right, could not be more true. 121 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,440 Play any campaign of D&D or any TTRPG ever. 122 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,400 You are going to peel back so many layers of someones persona 123 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,920 so much faster than. Actually. 124 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:56,760 Friends in the. That is why. 125 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,760 That is why I'm maintain that you can't just approach the 126 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,120 hobby and separate the people from it, right? 127 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,400 I think it was couple, couple conversations episodes ago with 128 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,720 Laura. We were talking about community 129 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,240 unity and we talked about our world views and forming how we 130 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,880 approach games. With that in mind. 131 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,880 Sean's world view was defined by the game of chess and other 132 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,640 logic games. So I'm really curious about 133 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,240 that. I'm curious about that 134 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,640 relationship, what either soft skills or any critical thinking 135 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,160 that you've developed through from childhood to now that you 136 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,000 have found useful in trying to publish your first game in this 137 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,760 period. That's, I really appreciate that 138 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:40,520 question cuz it's fascinating to me. 139 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:42,200 I hadn't ever thought about that. 140 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,040 Like, I guess our upbringings are very much shaped by what we, 141 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,040 well, obviously what we consume, but then like how we play, where 142 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,280 we watch video games, board games, whatever, movies, books. 143 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,480 It's funny, I'm caught by this question because Mike's our 144 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,840 logic guy. Mike does the game mechanics. 145 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,240 I was gonna say I have a This is a great question and I, without 146 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,120 even ever thinking about it before the question was asked, 147 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,280 know the answer to what mine is. I was. 148 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:07,760 I was. Are you gonna guess? 149 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:09,520 No, I'm. Not gonna get this for you. 150 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,960 I was gonna relate. I was gonna say go ahead and 151 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,960 then I'll follow. Up I I was raised competitively 152 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,160 100% of the youngest of five siblings. 153 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:18,600 I played a bunch of sports growing up. 154 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,280 So my competitive nature seeps into my very persona regardless 155 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,080 of the type of game I play. Friendly competition, of course, 156 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,800 nothing too, too crazy. But as sort of Sean is saying, 157 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,200 as being the sort of logic scheme, mechanic, brain behind 158 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:32,680 the operation, in a way we all are. 159 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,720 But like, I like to take that as like my slice of priority that 160 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,560 definitely fuels my portion of what I do. 161 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,680 Or just like us pushing forward as a company or as a business or 162 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,120 as a game publishing in an unknown time. 163 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,240 It's like I see the challenge and just cannot help but want to 164 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,280 overcome it no matter how hard it seems like. 165 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,320 So yeah, I'm gonna interrupt you for a second because Mike is. 166 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,680 Mike is like, hey, yeah, I'm your friend. 167 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,320 And then you play and he looks, he moves into, he moves your 168 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,760 friend, and then he says you sit down at any game. 169 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,440 It could be Uno, it could be Twilight Imperium. 170 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,920 He's gonna want to destroy you on a molecular level for sure. 171 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,080 And then and then, and then if he doesn't win, no offense, 172 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:14,480 Mike, if you don't win, you get upset. 173 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,720 It's like. It's all in good taste. 174 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,720 It's all in good taste. We'll play a game that we made 175 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,240 ourselves and he's like, this game's terrible. 176 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:23,880 I lost. This game's horrible. 177 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,520 Who made this game? I have a feeling, I have a 178 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,200 feeling that if Michael and I are at a game table together, 179 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,640 I'm going to frustrate Mike so much because I find a way of 180 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,600 taking a competitive game and turning it into a cooperative 181 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:39,919 game. CJ, you and I would get along so 182 00:08:39,919 --> 00:08:41,400 well. I want to see this in action 183 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,039 because there's nothing that makes me happier than watching 184 00:08:44,039 --> 00:08:49,360 Steam come out next ears. But I will say, to bring this 185 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,600 back around to your question, I was like, whoa, what is it 186 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,480 'cause I did. I grew up on chess and I grew up 187 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,320 on MTG. But I think for me, what drives 188 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:03,040 my love of game design, and this is a big question, I guess, is 189 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,120 that, and I talk about this quite a bit, Mike, you'll 190 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,760 recognize this, the beautiful enmeshment between mechanics and 191 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,000 thematics. Chess as an example, is an 192 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,920 awesome example. And I hadn't actually ever 193 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:15,920 thought about it until you asked me this question, what the 194 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:17,760 blending of mechanics and thematics are. 195 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,240 And and I'll for anyone who doesn't understand what I'm 196 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:24,640 saying, is like, there's this moment where when a piece or a 197 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,560 piece of a game, I guess that's what the same thing when a piece 198 00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:30,000 is mechanics match, it's thematics. 199 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,440 There is like a beautiful harmony, yes, makes sense and it 200 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,080 feels good. For example, the night in chess, 201 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,800 it's a horse for anyone who doesn't play and it's the only 202 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,760 piece that can leap over other pieces and has this very 203 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,800 sporadic kind of movement style. It's not sporadic at all, but 204 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,040 for the first time player they'll be like what? 205 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,360 Right. But it's the only piece that can 206 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,680 leap and it's it's great because it's a horse. 207 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:53,920 Why wouldn't it be able to jump over things there are? 208 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,760 Pawns and pawns can only move one, can only move one. 209 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,360 Feels like the weakest type 1 so. 210 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,400 Exactly. So the queen, did you know the 211 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:01,800 queen? I think it was Queen Isabella. 212 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,520 The queen is based off of Queen Isabella of Spain because she 213 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,360 was so powerful. Yeah. 214 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,040 She had so much influence in Europe that they were like, this 215 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,120 piece needs to be stronger. She only used to be able to move 216 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,240 one at a time. And then Queen Isabella 217 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,200 dominated the Europe and the Americas. 218 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,760 Was she the, I believe Europe. And they were like, this piece 219 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:22,880 is now stronger. We're gonna we're gonna make her 220 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:23,720 superior. Yeah. 221 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:25,800 And I just think that's one. That's a great little history 222 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:27,760 fun thing. But two, That's another. 223 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,680 Blending of yeah, of the of the mechanics. 224 00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:34,120 And so anytime Mike and I are coming up with things and he 225 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,000 comes up with a brilliant mechanic, I'm like, that's 226 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,200 great. Who does that belong to in terms 227 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:39,480 of like Whisker Wars, for example? 228 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,040 Yes, which character does that go to? 229 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,360 Because thematically that doesn't work or thematically 230 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,200 that's perfect over here because OK, you're pulling from the 231 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:51,040 graveyard. The Gekromancer is a necromancer 232 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:52,960 type character. A pull from the graveyard 233 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,920 mechanic fits beautifully with the Gekromancer because of that 234 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:57,880 harmony. And that's where I love to. 235 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,280 That's like where I love to sit in terms of game design. 236 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,040 That's like my favorite spy. So Mike is the game mechanics 237 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,640 when you're working on a game and then you're the theme guy 238 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,040 trying to match it if you can. Yeah. 239 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:11,640 And it's not always in that order. 240 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:16,000 Sometimes it sure, sometimes it ebbs and flows and but yeah, a 241 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,840 lot of the time it'll be me being it'll be me being like, 242 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:20,880 what about this? And Mike's like, no, that's 243 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,200 broken. If you were to boil down our 244 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:28,720 game design process to the list forum, Sean texting the group 245 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,080 chat with like, what if we had a game that was this set in this 246 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,280 crazy world and all of them did this and we're like, great, 20% 247 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,320 of that's awesome. Get rid of the 80% and let's 248 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,440 work on that 20%. And then he's like, yeah, OK, 249 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:40,680 fine. Yeah, but then every time you 250 00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:43,720 get rid of the 80%, that 80% just happens to include giant 251 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:45,600 robots, and it makes me upset. Get. 252 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:46,960 Get. The Max out of here he. 253 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:48,640 Always. He always axe the Max. 254 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,600 What do you have against Max? What's? 255 00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:51,640 Yeah, what do you have against Max? 256 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:54,480 Mike, I love Max, I love Max, but Whisker Wars just would not 257 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,160 have been as good if there were Max in it. 258 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:03,520 Maybe an expansion 18? So, so I only know what I've 259 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,920 seen on your Instagram through all the reels, right and 260 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:09,360 everything. And I want to talk about the art 261 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:10,960 in a minute. Oh yeah. 262 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:16,920 But why couldn't a cute, whimsical animal not operate a 263 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,520 mech of some sort? That is a good point. 264 00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:21,560 Right. I mean, I feel like that's a 265 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:24,960 possibility. There's certainly if the way 266 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,440 that we put it to a swage, A swage Sean's fears of not being 267 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,160 able to play and have the cool things he wants in the future of 268 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,080 his scores. We say if we get to a certain 269 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:35,840 point, you can have whatever you want, but. 270 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,720 You're making me out to be like the kid who wants candy. 271 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:39,560 And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 272 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,080 We'll get candy later, Yeah. You know the kid wants candy. 273 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:44,320 Let's be honest. Candy. 274 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,000 So let's talk about. So in Whisker Wars, it's I 275 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,600 forgot the name of the the the realm. 276 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,160 What is? Supetra. 277 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,360 Supetra. Yeah, but let's say if we took 278 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,680 Supatra and put it in a historical context of Earth, 279 00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:03,240 what time period is it? Would you say it parallels I'm? 280 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,160 Looking like because I have an answer. 281 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,440 Well, answer for me. For me it is. 282 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,640 Oh man, I'm gonna this is gonna show my total history nerd to 283 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,120 me. It is after 1110. 284 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,080 It's right after 1066. Battle of Hastings. 285 00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:25,840 Battle of Hastings and the pushing of the the Norwegians 286 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:30,760 out of England at the OK Battle of Stamford Bridge I believe. 287 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,640 So, OK, so we're talking about the following 11th, 12th 288 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,400 century. All right, so here we here's my 289 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,160 follow up question to get back to next. 290 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,000 Would it not then be possible, Michael? 291 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,480 Would it not be possible? I don't know how this ended up 292 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,440 being me putting you on the spot, but. 293 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,600 I love it. Here's your future expansions, 294 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,640 right? You could then take your 295 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,440 fictional realm forward in the future, right? 296 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,400 As technology develops. So you could do gunpowder and 297 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,920 then you could introduce that type of weaponry and then 298 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:07,520 eventually air power, sea power, and then ultimately the kids 299 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,240 going to get his candy and you can have a mech expansion, 300 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,760 right? So, so cool. 301 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,880 That's. 4 expansions right there that you could release in the 302 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,400 future when your trade board might be over. 303 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,920 Let's hope. I we can't wait for both of 304 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,680 those things. One, expand to the Hazmat X and 305 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,360 two, for this trade war to be over because then all of us will 306 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,120 be happy. Yes, Yeah. 307 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,200 I am with you, PJ. That sounds like exactly the 308 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,320 trajectory we should be on. And yeah, they always have to 309 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,240 poke fun at my anytime I see a mech or something, it's just 310 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,440 kind of a big Titanfall fan, like OG Titanfall and Titanfall 311 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,280 2 and then Armored Core and all that stuff. 312 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:44,520 And so, yeah, that's a good point. 313 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,280 They could have a mech. There should be mechs. 314 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,920 So my next question is for the both of you. 315 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,640 So here's one where I'm actually, this is more of a 316 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,440 formal question where I would expect both of you to answer. 317 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,320 But I'm serious. What what games are you? 318 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,040 What board games are you outside of Whisker wars, obviously, 319 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,720 because you're probably are you enjoying playing right now, like 320 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,000 what's on your table recently? Great. 321 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,360 I'm not going to ask you what your what your favorite game. 322 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:12,480 Pick one. Yeah. 323 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,080 Yeah, but what are you enjoying right now? 324 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,960 What's inspiring you today? So I, what was it? 325 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,120 Saxon plug? This past year picked up Kelp 326 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,280 and I've been playing kelp a lot with my partner. 327 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:28,240 I love that freaking game. It is such a unique blend of a 328 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,520 couple different fun thematics in a way that at first I thought 329 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,320 it would be more overwhelming, but after the first game you're 330 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,440 like, Nah, I get it. I like this. 331 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,160 I don't know what there has to be said that I only get to play 332 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,800 the octopus, so my fiance only gets to play the shark, but I 333 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,800 love it and it's too much. It's a lot of fun just trying to 334 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,280 skedaddle my way through different bushes away from her. 335 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,200 So that is. And the thematic, it's, yeah, 336 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,680 it's another game where it's like the like, to Sean's point 337 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,480 earlier, where the thematic matches the mechanics of the 338 00:15:58,480 --> 00:15:59,640 game. Absolutely. 339 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:01,320 Perfectly. Perfectly. 340 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,560 Yeah, so welcome a quick. A quick shout out to Carl, the 341 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,040 designer of the game who we had on here before we in fact 342 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,160 launched on Kickstarter. We had him on because y'all are 343 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,160 new to the show. You have to go back to the audio 344 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,280 only episodes. Yeah, right on. 345 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,720 OK, which you can all find on YouTube, but but yeah, because 346 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,040 we only started doing video with episode 100, which was October 347 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:30,560 of last year. Oh, very calm. 348 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,480 Right on. Yeah, but I know that Carl 349 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,520 listens regularly, so he's going to enjoy the shout outs of Kelp. 350 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:37,880 That's a good one. Awesome. 351 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,600 That's really good and ties in with everything we've just 352 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,800 talked about in terms of trying to marry theme and mechanics. 353 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:44,920 What about you, Sean? What are you? 354 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,120 What are you enjoying right now? Another where beautiful marriage 355 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,280 of human mechanics. We play this. 356 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,920 We actually played it recently, Mike, he knows what I'm gonna 357 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,320 say. And it's unmanaged by 358 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,680 Restoration Games and Rob Dabio, right? 359 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,040 Yeah, yeah, it's them in Restoration games. 360 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,280 Unmatched is awesome. So Unmatched is great and my 361 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,359 love of it comes from that Thematics, mechanics, synergy. 362 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,800 So it's asymmetrical characters. Everyone gets their own short 363 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,319 deck. It's an arena battler, so 364 00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:14,920 someone who grew up like playing Halo 2 or Halo three in a small 365 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,000 arena, a force to fight each other. 366 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,079 And then the characters are awesome. 367 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:22,599 So it's all like open IP. So it's like Red Riding Hood. 368 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:25,680 This is my favorite matchup is Red Riding Hood versus Beowulf 369 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,680 cuz it's Red Riding Hood versus the Wolf, but it's not the wolf, 370 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,120 it's Beowulf. I think it's really cool. 371 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:35,000 Wow. And then each each character has 372 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:36,480 their own kind of like play style. 373 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,400 So the set that I have is the Shakespearean set. 374 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,000 OK. So you have Shakespeare versus 375 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,200 the three Fates versus Hamlet versus Titania. 376 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,320 And for a great example is Hamlet. 377 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,640 At the beginning of your turn, you can either to be or not to 378 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,240 be. And if you to be, you draw extra 379 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:52,360 cards. And if you're not to be, you 380 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:54,800 deal extra damage. So it's like very simple 381 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,240 mechanics like that that are perfect for the character. 382 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,120 Yeah, we just played recently and I think Mike had a good 383 00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:02,000 time. Right, Mike. .9% one I'm pretty 384 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,800 sure as the three. The three are great, a lot of 385 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:08,280 fun, love that game, love winning a game. 386 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:11,520 Have I said that maybe? You have you have made that 387 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:12,960 very. Clear, Very clear. 388 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,560 Yeah, Yeah. What? 389 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:18,280 Again, another question for the two of you. 390 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,600 What games, if any? I'm sure they're a list inspired 391 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,720 you in the development of Whisker Wars. 392 00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:27,800 Like, you played a game and you're like, Oh my God, yeah, 393 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,360 yeah. So we are definitely at least 394 00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:33,560 for a lot of like abilities and sort of there's a couple 395 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,360 different games. The short list is like MTG, 396 00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:38,400 Magic the Gathering. We're all all three of us are 397 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,000 Magic the gathering players. We love weekly semi weekly 398 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,360 commander. And we wanted the whole sort of 399 00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:48,440 intention of Whisker Wars was to create this sort of entry level, 400 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,560 almost scaffolding like game that can take newer players to 401 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,960 the genre and give them that sort of brain, scratch that itch 402 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,920 for more of those complex battlers like MTG, Yu-gi-oh, 403 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:02,200 Lucana, Pokémon. So there's definitely a lot of 404 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,400 inspiration from MTG in that sense. 405 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,200 And there's another simpler sense. 406 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,080 There's also the inspiration from D&D, which is one of our 407 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:10,480 favorite games. Sean and I are in a campaign 408 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,680 together. 2 campaigns together, hilariously. 409 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:14,800 Three, dude, I run you through Lancer. 410 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:20,160 Well, that's right, DNDDN. DD2 DND campaigns together where 411 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,360 we took the Super easy to understand initiative system of 412 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:28,920 just, you know, and we made that sort of the core loop of how the 413 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,520 actual cards play and the timing of the cards themselves. 414 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,880 So it's just super easy. Look for the highest number on 415 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,320 the table, that card goes so on and so forth. 416 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,240 So we sort of took that idea from DND and then I think 417 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,520 there's probably other inspirations too, but I think 418 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,240 those are the two quick biggest ones that come to mind. 419 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,680 Sean, is there anything you want to add to that in terms of, 420 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,800 yeah, there was a. Game Well, one. 421 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,920 Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you I'm just like 422 00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:56,280 my brain's reeling. Yeah, you mentioned D&D mic and 423 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,240 I was like what? And I was like yeah, that is 424 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,600 like we talk about this all the time that yeah. 425 00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:04,600 And I love that idea of like the game engine, right. 426 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,040 The core loop. This was something that I think 427 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,800 JB Stegmire. Talked about. 428 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,600 Probably. Yeah, the core loop of like, 429 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,640 what's the core of your game? Why is it fun? 430 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,000 Why do I want to keep playing? These are really important 431 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,320 questions. And that being like a simple 432 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,680 mechanic of like an engine that simply drives a game from 433 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:24,600 whatever's next. And then the other thing has to 434 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,960 go and it has to go and you have to continue playing the game. 435 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,520 So it's like it kind of cuts down on analysis paralysis and 436 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,520 all these other things like drag games out. 437 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,160 It's like the game is forcing you to play it at a certain 438 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:36,400 speed, which I think is really. Fun. 439 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,720 OK. The other game that I was gonna 440 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,720 bring up was it was a game that I played a while ago, which we 441 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,800 had some inspiration from it. They do a nice job with their 442 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:46,880 health trackers and that we were like, this is great. 443 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,120 This is a really, we can get into this later, too. 444 00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:51,800 But it's a really great, from a manufacturing standpoint, a 445 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,280 really smart way to do this. And it was a game called Battle 446 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:55,760 Wizards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 447 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,080 Battle Wizards, Yeah. And for all those who haven't 448 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:03,680 played, it's a very adult game. Careful around kids, but just a 449 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,120 fun anecdote. Fun anecdote with that. 450 00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:07,800 I played with a bunch of my first time I ever played. 451 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,600 I played with a bunch of actors and they had they had they had 452 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:15,080 the most rule where if you didn't cast your spell in your 453 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,520 wizard's voice, it didn't count. So you had all these like very 454 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,760 passive actors, right, with doing hilarious voices and full 455 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,440 bore casting spells at you across the table. 456 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,360 It was it was very fun. But yeah. 457 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,280 That's awesome. That's interesting. 458 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,200 So what any recent challenges outside of things we've already 459 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,880 talked about, talk about the challenges in the process that 460 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,280 you had and how you overcame them well. 461 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:47,680 I think there are a lot of challenges that so to preface, 462 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,320 Sean Logan and I, the Glass House team, we've been very 463 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,960 fortunate to have made a lot of industry connections over the 464 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,320 past two years, going to Packs Unplugged, talking to people at 465 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,200 Kickstarter. We joined the Unpub tabletop 466 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,720 mentorship program where we got put with who's essentially like 467 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,760 our Big Brother now, Ross Thompson and he many of our 468 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,320 friends and connections we made like to say friends cuz it 469 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,040 doesn't ever feel like a connection in this industry. 470 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,720 It's just friends and peers, but all of these friends and peers 471 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,040 have giving us really good advice at each sort of turning 472 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,760 point in the sort of journey of this process. 473 00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:24,520 With all of that being said, there are so many challenges 474 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,280 that come up that you can never even anticipate. 475 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,760 And they say that and they've been saying that's like, don't 476 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,880 think just because you feel like you're done and you're ready 477 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:32,400 that you're just going to coast through this. 478 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,120 There's always going to be things that come up and I can't 479 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:37,800 think of any specific challenges right now. 480 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,920 I feel like every day there's challenges that we got it. 481 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:46,840 You taught yourself 2D animation because we're like like we were 482 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,440 like like that. That was the example I was gonna 483 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,880 bring up is like, we have found that we've had to learn. 484 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,880 We've had to learn things very quickly because of one budget 485 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,280 constraints and 2:00 because of timing constraints. 486 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,400 So we're like, OK, we could even if we had the budget, we realize 487 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:07,080 we need XYZ assets that are, for example, Blender or 2D animation 488 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,240 for our video. And it's like straight up, we 489 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,280 don't have the funds. We're a small company. 490 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,320 We spent most of our money on art and advertising and then 491 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,280 we're like OK, we need some 2D animation. 492 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,600 It might goes, yeah I guess I'll figure that out. 493 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:24,080 And like 2 weeks later we had like a fully functioning like 494 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,600 intro video. Very rudimentary, but very good. 495 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,080 Yeah. It's Adobe has become very a 496 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,600 very familiar friend of mine over the past year and change at 497 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:39,480 this point, Adobe Anime, Adobe Indesign, Logan's Virtuoso at 498 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,160 this point with the Photoshop and Blender. 499 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,160 So it's just a lot of different putting on new hats we never 500 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,360 knew how to wear before. These are all to my point. 501 00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:50,960 These are all things that it wasn't like we came in like I 502 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,560 know Blender and I know Indesign let's make a game. 503 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,080 It was like what do we I have to learn that now, right? 504 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:57,720 They, they, they have to learn that now. 505 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,320 Tom's over there like I'm just gonna write stories. 506 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,520 So. Yeah, that was, to their credit, 507 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,200 like putting on a hat that had maybe never been on before and 508 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,000 like running with it. Right. 509 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,160 This is like when people, we go to game conventions all the time 510 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,120 and people are like, yeah, I'm a designer, like cool with who? 511 00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:18,520 And they go just me. And it blows my mind. 512 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,800 It blows my mind. One person teams that are just 513 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,080 like you must be a genius. Yeah, and the. 514 00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:28,280 Hardest working person I know in order to do certain like because 515 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:30,320 it doesn't even matter the weight of a game, just a 516 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,200 publishing process. Period is an arduous long 517 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,680 process. Our game is light, our game is 518 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,960 pretty light and the the To Do List that we put together in the 519 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,840 last two months before launch, I was stressed and I had the 520 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,440 easiest part of the list. It's like 174 action items for 521 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,200 like 2 calendar months just just to get before Kickstarter 522 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,720 launch. So any do I met my my hat is off 523 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,520 to anybody that does this by themselves or we have 3 and. 524 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,040 Still feels like a lot. Still feels like a lot. 525 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,240 It is a lot. So the challenge is the 526 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,480 obstacles are all of them. Yeah. 527 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,440 And I think Mike said it, which is we just didn't know. 528 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,000 We didn't know how much writing there'd be for, you know, this 529 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,560 like the social media aspect alone is just like tripping days 530 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,280 and days and days of launch materials. 531 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:26,000 The assets, like having to have visual assets to accompany text, 532 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,880 those have to be built. The video has to be built. 533 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,360 Outreach to media has to be done. 534 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,320 Like the velocity at which you travel when you're launching a 535 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,160 game is it's a lot for one person. 536 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,520 It's a lot for three people. So have you found that that 537 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,160 velocity because you've you're like a week, you're a week out. 538 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,040 We could change. Guys, has the velocity, has the 539 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,760 velocity going up or has there kind of been a lull? 540 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,520 It's going up, it's gone up. That's. 541 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:54,920 Everyone kind of said it would too. 542 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,920 Like as you get closer to launch, it's not going to get 543 00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:59,800 easier, it's only going to get busier. 544 00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:03,480 But we're also sort of hats off to all of the great people that 545 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,360 have given us so much advice over the past couple of months 546 00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:09,680 is that we've been able to learn from these people months ago to 547 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,240 have this stuff done ahead of time. 548 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,800 So it's like we are crunching so hard to get all of these things 549 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,240 done a week and change out. We've been doing it for the past 550 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,360 month, for like a week and change out from our Kickstart 551 00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:23,320 launch so that it's ready so that we're not everyday when we 552 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,000 get home from our normal jobs and then come home and sit at 553 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,880 our computers, we're doing hours of work to keep up with it every 554 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,800 single day. So it's like we're taking as 555 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,120 smart and efficient of an approach to it as possible, 556 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:35,360 which cannot be said for everyone. 557 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:37,640 And some people just don't know how much it, you know, is 558 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,240 involved in making a game or just launching periods. 559 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,080 So I'm just very fortunate that we've had that in our corner. 560 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,240 And to just make a last point here is like we also have A to 561 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,520 our to our credit, we are not afraid of asking for help. 562 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,240 And to their credit, we have an awesome network of people who 563 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,680 have said like one of Mike and Logan's friends works their full 564 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,360 time job is BD 3D design. So they designed our blister 565 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:03,560 tray something that like we. Would have never been able. 566 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,400 To we'd have never been able to do that. 567 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,520 And and we have one of Logan's friends is like big in graphic 568 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:09,840 design. So she's helping us with our 569 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,320 Kickstarter page. And this is all just people who 570 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,400 are just like down to help us because we're coming to them 571 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:15,960 open and honestly being like hell. 572 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:17,680 We need a hand here. Yeah. 573 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,480 And and that's coming from three, three of us. 574 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:25,360 So I can imagine how yeah, how doing it alone you need a lot of 575 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:27,560 help are. All three of you in Brooklyn? 576 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:28,520 No. So the. 577 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,760 Two of us are and then Logan's based out of Austin. 578 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,640 OK. That's got to be a little bit of 579 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,640 a challenge too, right? It's yeah. 580 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,520 Yeah, in a way I think the pros outweigh the cons on that one 581 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,400 because then we get an even sort of wider net in terms of because 582 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,400 like we love play to, I personally love play testing 583 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,120 events. I love like when we just get to 584 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,520 get together with the community, host an event at a local game 585 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,600 store or a cafe or something like that and then just bring 586 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,960 other designers or just like friends, family together. 587 00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:58,320 So like we get to do that now out of two hubs, Boston and New 588 00:27:58,320 --> 00:27:59,760 York. So I love that. 589 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:04,000 Yes, it does involve a four hour trip up to up to Boston after 590 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,520 work, but you know, it's all in the love of the game. 591 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,520 Right. Yeah, OK. 592 00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:11,440 And there's a chance that Logan even we're gonna. 593 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,160 Manifest that on this we're. Gonna go back to that. 594 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,280 We're gonna. Yeah, we're gonna. 595 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,320 He's gonna relocate to Brooklyn. It's potentially in the worst. 596 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,040 We say that as he is currently on vacation. 597 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,880 Right now we'll not see this. He will. 598 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,080 He'll be like guys. So I want to talk about the art 599 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,680 for a minute. I'm I'm trying to remember some 600 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,960 of the descriptions. The keyword that I saw in your 601 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,000 social media to describe the art for Whisker Wars was whimsy or 602 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,040 whimsical. Here you hear that a lot, so I 603 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,560 don't know if you've noticed. So my question is 2 parts, 604 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,440 right? One, it's specific about your 605 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,480 game. And then a larger question. 606 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:52,120 There has been a trend, there's so many games where the theme in 607 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,880 the artwork is very could be defined as whimsical. 608 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:56,960 We're seeing a whole lot of that. 609 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,560 So my first question to you or the first part is, what do you 610 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,320 think's going on? What do you think's motivating 611 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,720 that? And then secondly, why did you 612 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:09,040 choose a more whimsical art? Uvra, if you will, and Michael, 613 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,880 maybe he's ready. So. 614 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:12,440 That's it. Yeah. 615 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,280 That's your question. Great question. 616 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,920 So I think we we knew specifically when we were going 617 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,480 to market with Whisker words that we needed a digestible 618 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,160 theme and we did not make a brand new unique theme. 619 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,720 It is anthropomorphic warriors in the fantasy world. 620 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,800 It's been done hundreds of times over. 621 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,680 We have no problem with that, but we love it and people love 622 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,320 it and it's just a great medium. It's digestible, It's cute. 623 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,360 And then it's not just cute. Sometimes it's, you know, super 624 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,400 cool. Like we've made some really cool 625 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,840 characters in there that are not cute and they're super. 626 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,280 I can I curse on here. It's bad ASS. 627 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,520 So guys better do it. Yeah, you're very welcome. 628 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,520 The so I love the sort of duality of what we've created in 629 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,040 the world of it being both super cool and cute. 630 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,240 But to answer your question, I think there is like generally 631 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,000 across the industry making something look more digestible 632 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,720 is makes it an easier to market product period. 633 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,200 Like if it just looks cuter and simpler then someone is more 634 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,600 likely to purchase it without even knowing what the contents 635 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,240 of the game are or the skill level or how long the play time 636 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,200 is. If you have a, you know, super 637 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,680 heavy box that's full with sci-fi themes and it's in space, 638 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,280 you're seeing this massive board on it, people are going to be 639 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,160 into that. I am into games like that. 640 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,760 Sean is into games like that. But your average everyday 641 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,520 consumer might look at that and think, oh, that's too heavy. 642 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,320 Oh, that's a little scary. That's a daunting theme. 643 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,680 I'm going to pick up this thing that's got a cat in a catapult 644 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,480 on the box and I'm like, cool, yeah. 645 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,560 Yeah, That, I think is Mike, touches on a really important 646 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,000 thing, which is like, if I'm looking for a new game, I would 647 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,560 like to have a first impression of the game that matches the 648 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,960 game after I've bought it. Sure. 649 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,000 I'm not going to new names, but there are games that that kind 650 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,680 of trick you where it looks approachable in light and you 651 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,920 open the game and it's an asymmetrical doom battler and 652 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,760 you're like, what is I have to reread these directions tenfold. 653 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,640 Like, so we wanted to make sure that like if we're, if our game 654 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,880 is intending to bring in new players, then we want to make 655 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,120 sure that art catches new players eyes and and tells them, 656 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,720 Hey, I'm accessible to you. I'm I'm a safe place for you new 657 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,600 player to come in and play this game. 658 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,240 So that was a lot of our motivating. 659 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,520 But and then and then also like there's a history of like animal 660 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,920 anthropomorphic stories, absolutely inaccessibility to 661 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,680 kids. You talk about Zootopia, you go 662 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,400 all the way back to Disney's Robin Hood. 663 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,280 Like these are stories where anthropomorphic characters are 664 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,080 intended for kids. So it already leans that way it. 665 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,120 Would be remiss of us not to mention Redwall, as well as a 666 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,440 big thematic sort of inspiration for us as a game. 667 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,040 We grew up with Red Wall, a lot of people grew up with Red Wall. 668 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:54,280 We wanted to give that sort of Red Wall inspired battling 669 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,840 sensation into a cute sort of little box. 670 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,000 So that was sort of one of our many goals. 671 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,960 With Whisker worst, so that means that your target audience 672 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,240 is Jack and Jill off the street and entering this community and 673 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,000 this industry we. Yeah, there's like, so it's 674 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,560 like, that's like a that's interesting because that's two, 675 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,320 there's two sides to that coin. Our target it yes. 676 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,120 The answer, short answer, yes. We want it to be available to to 677 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,920 new players, players that aren't hardcore gamers, players that 678 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,480 that MTG is too much for them. It also is supposed to be a nice 679 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,040 point for their friends to be like, hey, oh, maybe MTG is too 680 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:34,480 complicated. Want to try this? 681 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,320 And then you can drag people into the mire of games. 682 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,720 Yeah. And and then all of a sudden 683 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,000 they're like, oh, I understand these mechanics. 684 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,800 What's that MTG about? Right. 685 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:50,000 Draw your friends in. It's supposed to be accessible 686 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:55,240 to new players and have enough depth and fun and mechanics to 687 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,520 scratch the itch of veteran players. 688 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,720 I've heard some talk, both of you, both of you have mentioned 689 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,080 a lot of a lot about kids, right? 690 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:08,640 So is part of your target audience a family oriented and a 691 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,440 children's accessible? I'm making this game that way. 692 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,640 So I think we took a lot of effort in the creative process 693 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,880 of the game to make it approachable to, I'm not gonna 694 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,240 say all Angel agents, cuz I don't. 695 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,000 Think a three or. 4 year old's gonna be able to pick up this 696 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,720 game, right? But like 8 and up, 100%. 697 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,440 Like thematically wise, mechanics wise, we tried to keep 698 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,200 it as simple and digestible as possible so that you can play 699 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,360 with your family. I mean, let's all be real, we're 700 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,640 all at conventions. We see 9 year olds whipping out 701 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,920 their commander deck, an absolutely trucking 39 year old 702 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,080 players at the game table. So that level of intellect is 703 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,600 already skyrocketing in that younger generation, which is 704 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,920 super scary and awesome and awesome at the same time. 705 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,920 But we wanted to make sure we created a game that was 706 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,440 accessible to everyone. We didn't want it to feel like 707 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,960 there was just a specific niche this was going towards. 708 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,840 Don't get me wrong, we know our super fan for the most part. 709 00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:59,840 Like they talk a lot about a super fan when you're building a 710 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,000 game for the first time. It's like if you were to choose 711 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,920 one sort of pocket, one sort of slice of gamer that you would 712 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,400 market this to, who would it be? So ours is typically the card 713 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,920 battler MTG sort of player. So that's our super fan. 714 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,639 And if you play at MTG before and you pick up the scores, 715 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,120 you're going to enjoy it because it's made by a bunch of MTG 716 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,920 nerds that wanted a more digestible medium. 717 00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:22,880 To answer your question, yeah, why not? 718 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,239 Why can't it be a family game? You know, we kept it light. 719 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,239 We don't use things like attack. We don't use like, health or 720 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,920 like life or like killing players in the game. 721 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,120 Like, we use all digestible language. 722 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,600 Like morale, for instance, is our health. 723 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,000 So we use it more from a standpoint of like, your 724 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,840 warriors will only follow you if you have morale. 725 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,080 Your morale hit zero, they all run away. 726 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,679 So we tried to keep the thematics very, again, 727 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,199 intertwined into the mechanics of the game, and I think we did 728 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:53,520 a pretty good job with it. Yeah, we took, we did, we 729 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,000 actually did intentionally do that because we there were. 730 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,120 I love Vittoria. She's awesome. 731 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,000 She's she's awesome. To our artist. 732 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,760 Yeah, our artist Vittoria, and she kept putting in like really 733 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,080 gruesome stuff. And we're like, dude, please 734 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,720 pull back on that. It's awesome. 735 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:11,400 But like, we're also trying to not scare away. 736 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,400 And, you know, maybe like, you know, you want like I, I, my mom 737 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,640 doesn't play a lot of board games, like magic is way over 738 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,600 her head. But like I could see a World War 739 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,240 like she would play this. So like it's all to say like 740 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:25,320 it's supposed to bring people together and there are some 741 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,440 themes that are too much for some people, so or too harsh or 742 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,320 too one way or the other. But if you can find them, if you 743 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,800 can find a common ground and you have a table to sit at together 744 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,720 and it's it's it fulfills one of the pillars of glass house, 745 00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:39,760 which is make games that genuinely bring people together. 746 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,200 Right, So right. I love that that. 747 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,240 Mission, I totally support what what was it like on a personal 748 00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:49,120 level that you've talked about? You got a lot of support from 749 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,840 the designer community and everything, but what about what 750 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,720 about like any emotional content, emotional obstacles you 751 00:35:56,720 --> 00:35:59,560 had to overcome either internally or maybe you've got 752 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,240 some resistance from a few personalities? 753 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,400 Because the thing that's interesting about this community 754 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,160 is that we're not all the same, right, right. 755 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,840 You know, so there's some good personalities, there's some 756 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,520 neutral, and then there's, you know. 757 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,280 There's chaotic evil, yeah. Yeah. 758 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,920 Anything, anything that stood out for you that that's that was 759 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,680 a refining moment. And how did you get past it? 760 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,200 Or something like that? Yeah, that's a good question. 761 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:22,880 Great question. We like to say a lot like we've 762 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,240 had a lot of feed, like great feedback and positive 763 00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:26,760 affirmations in our sort of journey. 764 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,120 It has not all been positive. It is not all been great. 765 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,120 Be hunky Dory. There has been a handful 766 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,840 handfuls of people. It hasn't been a large, you 767 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,320 know, majority, but handfuls of people won't say names or 768 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,560 anything that we've met with. And we've showcased the game 769 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,000 too. And we play tested with a cross 770 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,160 play testing event, play testing events, conventions, personal 771 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,720 one on ones on lines, whatever. Some people do not like the game 772 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,080 and right, some people are very vocal about it and that's fine. 773 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,560 Like I, I think ultimately we are trying to make a game that's 774 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,440 approachable to all, but that is just unrealistic because of what 775 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,600 you just said. Everyone is different, first and 776 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,360 foremost, gamers are also very different amongst each other and 777 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,720 their play styles and what they're looking for in a game or 778 00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:13,680 how they want to approach an objective of a game. 779 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,560 And it's it's like that's the the beauty of games is that what 780 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,120 there's a million and one games on the market for you to choose 781 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:20,960 from. This might not be yours and 782 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,840 that's totally fine. But that definitely persevere 783 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,000 like pushes us to make the game as better and great as possible. 784 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,240 So we like to flip any challenge into a thing that we can use to 785 00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:32,200 motivate. Us yeah, I think that's a really 786 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,240 good point, Mike. Like like that's the beauty of 787 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:37,960 the industry is like even if you are one of the most competitive 788 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,640 aggressive dudes on the table, there's still a game for you out 789 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,520 there. Like there's still a, there's 790 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,040 still a table that playing your favorite game. 791 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,040 There's a there's a mono blue commander deck waiting for you 792 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,000 somewhere. Even if you're not my friend. 793 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:50,960 Yeah, exactly. Jesus. 794 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,400 So my boy was like, even if I'm not going to be your friend, you 795 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,520 will find friends here because there'll be people that will 796 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,640 want to play the games you want to play and play it your style. 797 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,640 Like everyone has a place. And that is what I think is the 798 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,760 beauty of the industry is 1 everyone for the most part, like 799 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,520 99.9% of people have been open arms, welcoming. 800 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,040 Yeah. And, and, and, and that goes 801 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:13,960 across the board, whether it's who you are, where you're from, 802 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,480 your orientation, whatever, how you like a dress, it doesn't 803 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:17,880 matter. You have a community that 804 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,920 welcomes you. You have space to play and a 805 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,280 space to be who you are and space to be honest. 806 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,680 And I think it's an it's, it's refreshing. 807 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,400 I think that was my emotional bit about it was like, wow, what 808 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,200 a what an arena where you can find such a diverse crowd and 809 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,400 they all want to be here. They all have. 810 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,520 And they and like the like the conventions that I've been to, 811 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,120 the judgement's been at an all time low across the board. 812 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,800 People are usually very like, oh, everyone's here to play 813 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,520 games. I would love to piggyback off 814 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,520 that for one last point on this. Yes, there's a lot of challenges 815 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:50,960 and there have been times where people have not had the most 816 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,400 nice things to say. I will say from an emotional 817 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,240 standpoint though, as hoping to bring our first to market brand 818 00:38:57,240 --> 00:39:00,680 new indie publishing company kind words of affirmations 819 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,680 really go a long way. Yeah, like there are some days 820 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,440 where we are absolutely exhausted from just our regular 821 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,320 day jobs, and we're cranking 2 to 4 hours of glass house work a 822 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:17,000 night every other night. And just one kind comment from 823 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,240 someone. Yeah, just makes the whole week, 824 00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:20,960 the whole month worth it. And there's been a couple of 825 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,400 those pockets where we can feel our emotional morale dipping a 826 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,320 little bit just because of the process. 827 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:27,960 And it's exhausting. It's a lot of work. 828 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,560 And then one or two nice things will come through and we'll just 829 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,960 skyrocket up the next day. And again, thankfully, we have 830 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,920 three of us. Whenever one of us is down, one 831 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:36,760 of us is up. So it's a great sort of 832 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,760 balancing to have a trio working together. 833 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,320 But those kind words of affirmation, Yeah, be nice to 834 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:43,800 gamers, is what I'm trying to say. 835 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,160 Even if you don't, even if you don't like the game, yeah, 836 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,440 there's something about it that's great, I'm sure. 837 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,040 Yeah, you, you are definitely, you guys are definitely blessed 838 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,200 that there's three of you. Just just in the podcast world, 839 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,440 the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes to create this 840 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,760 product that you consume at no cost to you. 841 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,160 There's a financial burden, There's a burden of time. 842 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,440 There's so much work. Yeah, I feel you. 843 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,760 I don't put in as quite as many hours, but it's moments of 844 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,360 intent. Dedicated time and emotion and I 845 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,600 think the worst thing for me is just crickets, right I get no 846 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,560 feedback and so I'm like well, I guess I'm yeah OK right so you 847 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,120 know I get a little aggressive with. 848 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,240 Tell me how you what do you think about the podcast? 849 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,480 I feel that. So here's a question and I had 850 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,880 this one to ask you. I was going to ask you this from 851 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,360 the beginning. I always plan to ask this 852 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,840 question. Lately, the concept of 853 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,600 vulnerability has come up on the podcast. 854 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,200 So my question to you is, because I think about this a a 855 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:48,800 lot for me, how did you prepare yourself or was it easy for you 856 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:54,240 to be vulnerable and open to criticism, whether constructive 857 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,480 or negative during play testing and the entire process of 858 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,440 development? I would love to start. 859 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:01,880 I keep feel like I keep taking these shots. 860 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:06,280 Here, don't. You can do it, you know. 861 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,960 Vulnerability. This is a great question and 862 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:10,720 almost a great segue off of the last question. 863 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:16,320 Vulnerability is such a good and necessary portion to creation, 864 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,720 period, regardless of what you're trying to create. 865 00:41:18,720 --> 00:41:21,520 We're trying to create a game, a story, whatever have you. 866 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,160 Vulnerability is so important because there's so many 867 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:26,520 different avenues I can take off this. 868 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,120 One example is we have a friend of mine who's designing a game 869 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,280 and he's been working on it for five years, and he's only showed 870 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,200 his friends and his close family. 871 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:35,640 And I'm like, dude, this game is great. 872 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,760 Get this game out there, go to a local game store, play with 873 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,240 random people. People want to play these new 874 00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:41,960 games. And he's just too scared. 875 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:43,280 And he just, he's not at that moment. 876 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,120 Yeah, where he wants to do that. And that's hard. 877 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,120 It's hard to take something you've worked on for years to 878 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,200 bring to someone who you know nothing about and then have them 879 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:52,960 potentially tear your game to shreds. 880 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,360 Not everyone has that etiquette, that play testing etiquette that 881 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,120 we've grown to learn over the past two years of like how you 882 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,840 really approach unpub play testing and how do you sort of 883 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,680 give critique back that doesn't feel overwhelmingly negative. 884 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,880 So there's that's one avenue of that vulnerability. 885 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,560 The most important thing that I think for me when I joined, and 886 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,080 I'll say when I joined the community as an entrepreneur 887 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,960 trying to make a game for the first time two years ago, that 888 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,520 first hacks unplug we went to is I think it was 2023 as a trio 889 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:26,560 was so like eye opening to how open the community is. 890 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,680 Like we I come from film and TV. I've been working on my career 891 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,280 as film and TV for the past seven years. 892 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,440 Not everyone's super nice in this industry. 893 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,760 It's a very cut throat industry. Everyone's trying to get a leg 894 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,040 up on each other, so there's a lot of metaphorical buses coming 895 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:40,520 around every single corner. Yeah. 896 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,320 In tabletop everyone is so nice and so open. 897 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,800 You can ask anyone a question and assuming they have the time 898 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,040 and they have a moment and they're not super busy cuz 899 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,440 everyone's very busy at conventions, they will tell you, 900 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,160 they will hand you the keys to success and they will not, they 901 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,840 will not withhold any sort of key sort of information or 902 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:02,880 anything like that. They will just give you 903 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,640 everything that they've learned over their experience and as 904 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,800 much of a medium that you can consume. 905 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,240 And I've never worked in an industry where people are that 906 00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:14,800 open about how to succeed. And we actively strive all of 907 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,840 the time to put that same energy back out into the community. 908 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,840 We, we actively like tell anyone you have any questions, you want 909 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,680 to spit ball an idea and like get some ideas. 910 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,040 We're brand new, but like we'd be happy to have an e-mail 911 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,360 conversation or a phone call or anything with you guys. 912 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,480 Like anything we can do to give back, for those that gave to us, 913 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,160 to get us to where we are now is so crucial to the industry. 914 00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:37,760 I think it's an industry to exactly Mike's point, that this 915 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,120 is an industry that genuinely believes that a rising tide 916 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,080 raises all ships. So like the more help you can 917 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,680 put into the industry, that kind of goodwill is going to come 918 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,760 right back around. And I believe that too. 919 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,200 But it's. We all want to play games. 920 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,080 Everyone wants to play games. We all want to play games. 921 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,640 I really like what you said, Mike, about vulnerability, cuz 922 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,720 at the end of the day, if you're creating something, you are 923 00:43:56,720 --> 00:43:58,720 exposing yourself and you're taking a risk. 924 00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:02,920 And so I'm just really hard. I come from the, I'm a big 925 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:04,760 screenwriter. I love writing movies and TV and 926 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:06,080 stuff and it's one of my passions. 927 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,560 And no, you haven't seen anything I wrote because we're 928 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,600 not there yet, but maybe one day. 929 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,000 My point is, is like, to use that as an example. 930 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,520 Like it's hard to show someone a script and say, hey, take a look 931 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,880 at this as you're a lot of people will get like paralysis. 932 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:21,960 And like, Mike made an example of it and be like, oh, I'm 933 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,120 afraid of being judged. If I never complete something or 934 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,360 if I never put it out there, I don't run the risk of being 935 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,520 judged. And that's a very scary place is 936 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,200 to be vulnerable. Yeah. 937 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,560 I think it's that it's very important to know, to find out 938 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,840 more about yourself by the way you open yourself to others in 939 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:40,920 the industry. And like you can never control 940 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,280 someone else's reactions or actions. 941 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,240 You can only ever control the way you receive them, the way 942 00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:49,160 you respond. So and that's a big life lesson 943 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:50,600 that took me a lot of therapy to learn. 944 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,040 But to bring it back into game design, we've, and this is also 945 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,320 something I learned in screen writing, which is what is the 946 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,960 note behind the note is the quote. 947 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:02,400 So what's the note behind the note? 948 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,760 So if someone comes to you and they go, this game sucked. 949 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,560 I didn't draw enough cards. I didn't have any options for us 950 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,200 to learn to say, instead of going, this person hated our 951 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,200 game. Like whatever, they can go kick 952 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:14,680 rocks. It's more like, okay, wait, hold 953 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,320 on, stop. How does every note, how can we 954 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:18,600 use every note to make our game better? 955 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,880 What did I hear? I heard a lot, but the big note 956 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,480 was I didn't draw enough cards. Maybe we need to add more card 957 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,200 draw. That's the note behind the note, 958 00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:28,840 which is frustrated. They were frustrated because 959 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,720 they didn't have enough options. So how do we bring this in? 960 00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:35,280 Like that's a good note. That's a great it was, yeah. 961 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,280 Even if they're not articulating it kindly. 962 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,680 Right. It's a big note, and for us, a 963 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:43,360 lesson, a big lesson was very. Good. 964 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:44,080 All right. Yes. 965 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:46,240 I don't like the way they said it. 966 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:48,880 Their note was really good. We need to fix some things. 967 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:50,560 We. Give each other about 10 minutes 968 00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,440 of vent time where we vent out how we feel about something and 969 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,720 then we're like never again. And we let it go behind us, and 970 00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:58,080 we take the note behind the note, and then we continue on. 971 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:02,160 Logan's great at that, at like calming move down being like, 972 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,040 all right, got that out. What was the name? 973 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:06,400 And I'm like, we need more clear drop. 974 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,880 So yeah, but it is. It's scary to be vulnerable. 975 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,200 Yeah, it's it's very scary. So, interestingly enough, I love 976 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,000 how y'all y'all set this up for me. 977 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:20,280 So the the Roman orator and philosopher Seneca, he said that 978 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:25,880 we are more often frightened than hurt, and we suffer more in 979 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,680 imagination than in reality. What did TJ just say? 980 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,800 What does that mean? It means that we imagine 981 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,640 perceived hurt because of our fear, and then rather than in 982 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,040 reality, you're not hurt at all, but you feel like you're hurt. 983 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,560 I suffer from this constantly, right? 984 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,280 So do. I, I mean, and what's 985 00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,680 interesting is this also ties into some of the motivation 986 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:52,200 behind FDR when he was inaugurated in 1933 as U.S. 987 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,000 President. He's like, the only thing we 988 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,000 have to fear is fear itself. Nameless, unreasoning that 989 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:03,000 paralyzes efforts to take advance from in to retreat. 990 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,880 And it's like I butchered the end of that quote because I'm 991 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:06,800 always excited. I like. 992 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,720 That one, I'm locked in. I liked it, yeah. 993 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,640 So Sean, you're talking to a guy with a masters in history, so 994 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:15,520 you can nerd out all day. You're great. 995 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,520 This is good. But I'm just thinking about that 996 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:19,840 because that is the problem, right? 997 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,720 Everything begins. You've heard me say it. 998 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:27,000 It begins with me and then us, and then the bigger community. 999 00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,040 And the first thing is you got to be willing to be vulnerable. 1000 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:31,680 And I don't know about the two of you. 1001 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:36,400 I'm not always willing. I sometimes fail in being 1002 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,880 vulnerable. I get I get scared sometimes 1003 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:40,400 too. You know when you put yourself 1004 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,000 out there with. You especially, like, especially 1005 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:45,960 to strangers. Like, it's easier to, yeah, it's 1006 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:47,320 hard to be vulnerable to your friends. 1007 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:48,800 It's hard to be vulnerable to your family. 1008 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,520 Some people find it easier to be vulnerable to strangers because 1009 00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,240 what are the stakes, right? Some actors are like, oh, it's 1010 00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:55,640 just an audience of nobodies, so I can be as vulnerable as I 1011 00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,080 want. But then like, that goes both 1012 00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:58,720 ways. It's like, I also don't know 1013 00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:00,480 you. So there's a lot there. 1014 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,720 Yeah, definitely. I think we're we're very lucky. 1015 00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:05,800 Again, we kind of harp on this a lot where it's like we're a 1016 00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,120 trio. So our first step is being 1017 00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,320 vulnerable with the like the other two. 1018 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:15,240 And it's always welcome in open arms, even if it's another game 1019 00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:18,680 that has a mech in it. And then it's like we will 1020 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:24,000 always just receive an idea, open hopefully, and strive to 1021 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,520 then just work on that idea and mold it into something all this 1022 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,480 can then work on. Well, Mike, you did. 1023 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,040 I want to bring something else. Something else up about this 1024 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,440 that is less so about game design, more about us where it's 1025 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,280 like, we've also become really, really good friends through this 1026 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,240 process. Sure, we were pretty good 1027 00:48:40,240 --> 00:48:41,520 friends. Mike and I were pretty good 1028 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,440 friends. Mike introduced me to Logan, and 1029 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,600 we've all become. My point is this, the ability to 1030 00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,160 be vulnerable with each other has started to morph into other 1031 00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,160 places where the example I like and might not even remember 1032 00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,720 this. I was kind of panicking about a 1033 00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:59,160 promise I had made to my family and a promise I had made to 1034 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,840 Glass House to be in two places at once. 1035 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,360 And I messed up and I was stressed and I was like, I felt 1036 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,840 really horrible about having to call Mike and be like, hey, man, 1037 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,760 I can't go to this thing that we said we'd go to. 1038 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,080 And he goes, Mike, you said to me, you said, dude, I love glass 1039 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,400 house and I love you guys. But family will always come 1040 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,200 first. And it is those relationships 1041 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,080 that like are the most important to us. 1042 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,240 And it's those relationships that like make us good human 1043 00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:27,200 beings that we can come into this world and then like sit 1044 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,800 across the table from a stranger and treat them like family, 1045 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,320 right? So I was like, huh, So I've 1046 00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,480 learned a lot from working with these guys. 1047 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,040 Just about one about business sense and two about games and 1048 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,440 three about but about being like games. 1049 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,320 What I didn't expect to learn is like how to be a better person. 1050 00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,480 Yeah, through this process, which is really, really eye 1051 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:49,960 opening and leaning into a little bit more, like you said, 1052 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:50,880 vulnerability. So. 1053 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,880 I think that's the, I think that gets lost sometimes, right? 1054 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:59,840 Like being a good gamer can help you to be a good person and then 1055 00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,800 that helps you in dealing with other gamers in the community, 1056 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,880 community and nurturing the concept of community also, 1057 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,000 especially right now. We need that, right? 1058 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,600 We need good gamers. We need good people. 1059 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:14,040 People. Right. 1060 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:18,000 Yeah, to walk out in the world and and deal with all that. 1061 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:22,760 Speaking of the elephant in the room, what has it been like 1062 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,640 since the announcement of tariffs, the trade wars? 1063 00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:29,840 So, and there's really two components to this. 1064 00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,920 One is the uncertainty of what's it going to be like a week from 1065 00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,840 now when you launch, a year from now when you're ready to ship, 1066 00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:38,160 right? What is that going to look like? 1067 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:44,400 And then there's the 145% tariff on China and China's so pivotal 1068 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:46,560 to this industry. What has that? 1069 00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:52,200 What is it like entering this industry as game designers in 1070 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,240 this trade war? What does that been like and how 1071 00:50:56,240 --> 00:50:59,600 are you navigating well? Yeah, it's it's nerve wracking, 1072 00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,200 obviously, just the complete unknown of it all is is 1073 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,480 horrifying as a gamer and not a business person, not a company, 1074 00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,160 as a gamer, I'm angry, I'm upset. 1075 00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,080 It's an easy emotion to sort of have in this time because it's 1076 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,800 like what an industry to get hit so hard. 1077 00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,560 Like it's not like tabletop. Like, yes, there are some big 1078 00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,720 name companies in the tabletop sphere, but tabletop is mostly 1079 00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:24,520 comprised of smaller companies that bring out these awesome 1080 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,600 games and hit it off with their first product. 1081 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:31,040 So it's like what an industry to absolutely like almost capsize 1082 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:32,360 in a way. And we're all seeing it with the 1083 00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:35,240 articles we've been reading, the layoffs, the companies that are 1084 00:51:35,240 --> 00:51:38,080 going under, the companies that are on indefinite holds for 1085 00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,880 their next announced project. It's horrifying. 1086 00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:42,800 Like how do? And then like, you know, we get, 1087 00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,440 like I said before, we have a lot of, you know, mentors and 1088 00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,440 friends we've made in this industry over the past couple of 1089 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,600 years who also, you know, air their own caution to us. 1090 00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,920 Or it's like, Are you sure that you want to move forward? 1091 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,560 Which is a totally valid thing to ask us. 1092 00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,360 And we would be more upset if people weren't asking us that as 1093 00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,320 we got closer. So that shows that people 1094 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,040 actually care. And we, you know, there was a 1095 00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:06,520 moment where we weren't sure and we really had to talk it out. 1096 00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:08,440 And it was a long call one night and we really talked it out. 1097 00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,040 We looked at all the numbers, Logan, our big logistics brain, 1098 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,560 whipped up a spreadsheet with how this was going to affect us 1099 00:52:13,720 --> 00:52:15,960 and our manufacturing costs and how we were going to sort of 1100 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,040 proceed. And we decided with all that 1101 00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:22,240 being said, the momentum we have right now going into launch is 1102 00:52:22,240 --> 00:52:25,200 too great. And frankly we are just running 1103 00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,480 out of a budget for, for AD spend. 1104 00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:32,040 So it's like if we it's risking the loss of that momentum and 1105 00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,080 going sort of dark and then launching later versus just 1106 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:39,160 launching and crossing all fingers and toes over the next, 1107 00:52:39,240 --> 00:52:43,280 you know, six months or so that those sort of tariffs change and 1108 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,320 or at least stay where they are. So we can at least adjust and 1109 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:47,920 account for it accordingly. Obviously, hopefully go away 1110 00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,360 completely or just lower, but you never know. 1111 00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:52,360 A tweet at 2:00 AM can change everything. 1112 00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:56,200 But it's, it's been scary. Is, is the obvious answer. 1113 00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,840 Nerve wracking, frightening. But we are persevering. 1114 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:01,840 We are all supporting each other. 1115 00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,640 We're getting calm, you know, positive affirmation from those 1116 00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,480 around us and we just can't. It's almost a part of my brain 1117 00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:08,480 too. It's like I feel like I can't 1118 00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:10,760 wait anymore. It's like I don't, it's almost 1119 00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,240 as if we're being punished by something so utterly out of our 1120 00:53:13,240 --> 00:53:15,480 control for something we've worked so hard for. 1121 00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:19,400 And it's like, I can't possibly think about waiting indefinitely 1122 00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,320 from this thing we've worked for so hard. 1123 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:27,360 That is, that is the sad truth of it is that it's people, we'll 1124 00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:32,320 call them at home, companies at home that are suffering and the 1125 00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:39,520 players that would be suffering. So my you're talking like the 1126 00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:42,840 basis of your question was how does it felt to be in this arena 1127 00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:44,840 right now? And yeah, there's been, it's, 1128 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,120 it's kicked off with like a huge amount of fear. 1129 00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,400 Like it has suddenly inundated the industry. 1130 00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:51,320 It seemed it in uncertainty and fear. 1131 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:55,880 Something though, that has been a big beacon for us has been we 1132 00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:57,520 don't know. We don't know. 1133 00:53:57,600 --> 00:53:59,800 And that can be scary to a lot of people. 1134 00:53:59,960 --> 00:54:03,000 It can also, it is the foundation of hope. 1135 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:05,400 And like you're religious, you might call it faith. 1136 00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,560 I'm not, but I still like the word faith. 1137 00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,960 Like I have faith in that this community supports each other. 1138 00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:15,680 And then this industry won't be defined by 4 bumpy years or 1139 00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,280 hopefully, hopefully way less. Right. 1140 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:21,480 Like, and I don't mean that in any kind of little, just mean 1141 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:23,840 like, like hopefully these tariffs go away, right? 1142 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:25,840 Because they're good. They could. 1143 00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,560 But we could get to, we could get to launch, we could get to 1144 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,280 manufacturing time and cooler heads could prevail. 1145 00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,760 Absolutely. And, and then all of a sudden 1146 00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,080 it's we're, we're, we're OK. You know what I mean? 1147 00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,680 It's not to say that we're not OK, but I think our approach is 1148 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:42,240 faith in that if things could be OK, but also more practical 1149 00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:44,560 faith. And if we are transparent and 1150 00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,320 honest about our process, people will show up. 1151 00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,840 So if we say, hey, this is exactly how it will affect you. 1152 00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:52,400 Here's the tipping, here's the tariff. 1153 00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:54,360 We're gonna tell you straight up, right? 1154 00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,200 This is what this it's costing right now. 1155 00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,720 And if it goes down, then we will make sure that it goes 1156 00:54:58,720 --> 00:55:00,800 down. We're not gonna, we're never 1157 00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:02,280 gonna pull you pull over your eyes. 1158 00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:05,080 Yeah, this. Extra cost only exists because 1159 00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,280 of the 1:45 we're seeing and it's like and ideally in a 1160 00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,360 perfect world it goes back to utterly normal. 1161 00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:14,320 Like it's been 4 years and that just goes away and never 1162 00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:16,680 existed. Yeah, I think there's been a lot 1163 00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:18,400 of like, do we do this? Do we wrap it in? 1164 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:20,960 Do we, How do we, how do? And it's like, you know what? 1165 00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,000 I don't want to. I'm never gonna want to trick 1166 00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:24,720 anybody. I want to come to you like 1167 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:26,920 another human and being like, this is our product. 1168 00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,280 This is what the times are like. Please support us and we will 1169 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,040 show you exactly where your money is going. 1170 00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,320 And, and hopefully just by that relationship, you know, and if 1171 00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:37,160 not like, and if not like, if you're like, you know what? 1172 00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:38,600 I, I hate the way of the world right now. 1173 00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:39,880 I don't want to spend money on this. 1174 00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:41,400 I'm not gonna put any more money towards there. 1175 00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:43,840 Like we, yeah, we get it. Yeah, Yeah, we get it. 1176 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,720 But it's not transparency and that honesty that like, we would 1177 00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:48,640 rather do that. I'd rather be here. 1178 00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:50,560 I'll put it this way. I'd rather be honest and fail, 1179 00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:52,600 which I don't think we will. But I'd rather be honest and 1180 00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,520 fail than succeed by manipulating people. 1181 00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:58,080 Sure, absolutely. And I asked the question not to 1182 00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,000 be a downer. I asked because this, this was 1183 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,120 something I thought about a lot before the two of you came on. 1184 00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:08,880 I y'all, y'all have such a unique perspective and an 1185 00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:13,120 interesting story to tell and it's worthy of being told coming 1186 00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:17,000 in as a new game designer at this time, right? 1187 00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:20,600 Because there are so many game designers who have mentored you 1188 00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:22,640 and helped you and everything like that that you were 1189 00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:26,560 describing in the last hour that they have been in it for a 1190 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:28,880 while. So they've got some strategies 1191 00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:32,840 and some resources that they can lean on to see them through the 1192 00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:34,920 next six months, nine months, a year. 1193 00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,040 What I don't know what their plans are, but to be coming at 1194 00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,760 it, you know, rather than asking you, why are you releasing your 1195 00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:43,880 game right now like you're being asked all the time. 1196 00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:48,520 I'm I think you bring this unique perspective because 1197 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,520 you're doing it despite the tariffs. 1198 00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:55,160 I feel like you were the perfect example of what I'm trying to 1199 00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:58,920 tell people about. Stop being afraid and angry. 1200 00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:01,840 I mean, you could be afraid and angry, but channel this in a 1201 00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,640 positive way. You guys are saying no, despite 1202 00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:06,400 all this, we're going going forward because we got a 1203 00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:08,200 product. I love that. 1204 00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:12,960 Whether this game is for you or not, how can no one, anyone not 1205 00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:18,440 applaud you for excuse me for going forward in such a 1206 00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:20,360 tumultuous time? And I applaud both of you. 1207 00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,560 And I thank you both for coming on and and sharing that with us. 1208 00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:25,360 I love you. Yeah, really. 1209 00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,080 Appreciate you saying that. Yeah, that's yeah, that means a 1210 00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,680 lot to us because it is nerve wracking and maybe it's it could 1211 00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:34,760 just be a practical lesson to be like, OK, why is it? 1212 00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,280 Why do we we believe this? It's because we have a couple of 1213 00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:40,520 practical things in line for us. Our game is relatively light and 1214 00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:42,800 we're crowdfunding. We don't crowdfunding, you know. 1215 00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:45,560 A warehouse filled with product that's already been made that 1216 00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:47,840 needs to get shipped over here. It's we have a little bit of a 1217 00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:52,240 timeline where we are as a small indie publishing company versus 1218 00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:54,520 Hasbro or any of these massive companies. 1219 00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,400 I mean, like, I know Stonemeyer games like put out an article or 1220 00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:59,360 a release statement a little while ago where they're like, 1221 00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:02,920 we're gonna cover the cost of the tariff for the games that 1222 00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:05,360 have been ordered from our last sort of run to come out to the 1223 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:06,960 States. But they can afford that. 1224 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:08,280 They're still minor games, right? 1225 00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:10,280 And it's probably still taking a massive hit on them. 1226 00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:11,680 Absolutely. Who knows what the actual 1227 00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:15,080 numbers are on the back end, but we can't play that 1228 00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:17,960 realistically. I guess it's like the big less 1229 00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:21,320 The big take away is the storm is not the end. 1230 00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:23,800 It is there's a path. There's always a path through 1231 00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:25,840 any storm. So like even if you have to 1232 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,720 adjust the way you approach games for a little bit, a game 1233 00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,040 design for a little bit and games manufacturing for a little 1234 00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:35,040 bit like it's not the end. It's it's an uncomfortable 1235 00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:39,960 adjustment that is temporary. Yes, and I'm not gonna, I would 1236 00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:42,000 like, I'm not gonna speak for the other guys at Glass House, 1237 00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,040 but I believe we, well, we aren't. 1238 00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:45,480 We're launching. Oh, it's like it's too late. 1239 00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:47,880 We're doing this. So we're not going to, you know, 1240 00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:50,600 an uncomfortable situation deter us from doing something that we 1241 00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:52,000 genuinely love. Yeah. 1242 00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:54,080 Yeah. So thank you for saying that, 1243 00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:54,800 PJ. Yeah. 1244 00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:59,400 I think my last sort of note on that is that we saw what's going 1245 00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:01,440 on in our industry right now to sort of take it and channel it 1246 00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:04,400 into a more positive reinforcement of everything 1247 00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,600 going on. We know that sort of, I mean, 1248 00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,440 crowdfunding is in the name, but we know that the crowd, the 1249 00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:12,680 community is such a like it's, dare I say, the most important 1250 00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:16,000 aspect of our industry. So we know when we see all these 1251 00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:17,960 other projects that are lined up for this year, other 1252 00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:19,320 kickstarters are things coming out. 1253 00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:21,960 We're going to help. Oh, it's going to cost me an 1254 00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:26,240 extra 10 dollars, $15.00 to like support another small company 1255 00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:29,000 that'll be there for us. And like we'll be for other 1256 00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,200 small companies and we'll all be there for each other. 1257 00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:33,520 I can't, I can't say that everyone can afford it, but 1258 00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:37,120 like, I will choose to be as supportive as I can in this time 1259 00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:40,000 to other people because I know that they need it just as much 1260 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:41,800 as we do, just as much as the next person. 1261 00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:45,840 And I'm not going to let you know the unfortunate reactions 1262 00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:49,200 of certain people in our government going to stop me from 1263 00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:52,240 that sort of feeling of community with the rest of my 1264 00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:54,120 peers. Right, absolutely. 1265 00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,360 So once again, I want to thank you both for being on the game 1266 00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,560 is Whisker Wars. It's coming to Kickstarter on 1267 00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:03,200 May 13th, which is when you're listening to this episode 1268 01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:06,240 because very cool. It's almost as if we planned it 1269 01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:11,080 that way. So for anyone who has not heard 1270 01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:15,440 about your game or Glass house, tell the listeners, viewers 1271 01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,360 where they can find you on socials, websites, all the fun 1272 01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:20,520 stuff. Yeah, so you can. 1273 01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:22,880 Well, we are live on Kickstarter right now. 1274 01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:26,720 So if you you know Google Kickstarter Whisker Wars, you'll 1275 01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:29,760 will be the one that pops up for socials. 1276 01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,040 We have an awesome Discord channel going. 1277 01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:34,800 You'll be able to find a link to that through our like through a 1278 01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,520 lot of places through our website, which is Glass House 1279 01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:40,320 Games Co. We could not afford the so just 1280 01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:43,280 so through that, you can find our link to the discord, 1281 01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:45,320 Instagram. We have a lot of fun stuff on 1282 01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:47,120 there. The point is, I think Discord is 1283 01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:50,400 where it's at really, really awesome, helpful, excited 1284 01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:52,960 community that it's like a lot of like lore chats are going on 1285 01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:55,920 and putting lore in there. People are talking about fun 1286 01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:59,280 punting animal names, how we run online play tests. 1287 01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:01,720 So if you want to check the game out ahead of time, we run them 1288 01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,280 through Tabletop Simulator is the big one that's been. 1289 01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:06,400 Later in the moment, top dot GTA. 1290 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:08,560 Yeah, those are two online mediums right now, so. 1291 01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:10,160 If you're on the fence, there are options to check out the 1292 01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:11,600 game ahead of time, see if you even like it. 1293 01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,240 So and if you don't know hard feelings, but that's where you 1294 01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:16,520 can find us. And then like if you want to 1295 01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:19,080 reach out to us directly, we will answer your emails. 1296 01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:22,080 Our e-mail is hello@glasshousegames.co. 1297 01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:24,240 So if you want to reach out to us directly and have anything to 1298 01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:27,560 say, please reach out. We're we're our open door 1299 01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:29,040 policy. Yeah, that's us. 1300 01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:31,240 Well. Again, guys, thank you, Michael, 1301 01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:35,680 Sean, and please extend my gratitude to Logan as well as 1302 01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:37,960 well. Whisker Wars. 1303 01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:42,560 Please guys, remember to like and subscribe to the YouTube 1304 01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:45,200 channel. The goal right now, in October 1305 01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:47,960 of this year, we will be on YouTube for one year. 1306 01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:50,760 We would love to have 100 followers subscribers. 1307 01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:52,600 We could get more. That would be great. 1308 01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,520 Come on, you could find us on Spotify and all other streaming 1309 01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:56,720 services. Make sure you like. 1310 01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,160 Please leave comments either for myself or for Sean and Mike 1311 01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,400 about the game. They'll be able to see that on 1312 01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:04,600 YouTube. And thanks again for watching. 1313 01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:05,600 Super. Thank you.