1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,840 Welcome to Meeple to Meeple uniting players around the 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:06,600 world, a 30 minute exploration of PJ and Gareth's four-game 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,520 experiences from across both sides of the Atlantic. 4 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:12,720 Each episode, they share their thoughts and opinions on the 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,280 World of War games, including their favorite themes, games, 6 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:20,480 hot topics, and much, much more. Hey, guys, and welcome to 7 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:26,000 episode 71, Fled. Can you escape as always? 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,040 I'm PJ. And I'm Gareth. 9 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:30,480 And today we've got a special guest. 10 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,680 We've got the designer of the up and coming game that's going to 11 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:39,160 be launched tomorrow on Kickstarter, Mark Swanson of 12 00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:40,440 Fled. How are you, Mark? 13 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:42,480 Pretty good. How you guys doing? 14 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:44,320 Great. We're glad to have you on. 15 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,720 It's great to finally meet you. Yeah, it's good to be here. 16 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,560 And then to discover that we're like an hour away from each 17 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:51,640 other as far as where we live, which is so cool. 18 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,200 We totally need the game. Let's. 19 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:56,120 Yeah, that. Yeah. 20 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,280 No, I've got no FOMO on that. Missing out, no more gaming. 21 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:01,840 Happens to be all, all around where PJ lives. 22 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,720 But yeah, so Mark, we've been, I've seen fled appear on my 23 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:07,280 socials over the last month or two. 24 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:08,360 He's definitely been dialling up. 25 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:14,760 And with the launch, it's the 5th of March at 2:00 PM UK time. 26 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:16,080 I think it was 9:00 AM Eastern Time. 27 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,160 That's right, do. You want to give us an overview 28 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,480 of of Fled and the concept behind it? 29 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,400 Yeah, sure. Well, I based the game after 30 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:32,800 Spike Island, which is a British Fort turned island prison off 31 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,360 the South Coast of Ireland. I mean, maybe you've you've 32 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,280 heard of that? Place, Googling, Googling. 33 00:01:38,320 --> 00:01:42,680 Now I'm clearing out some. Basically Poland's Alcatraz. 34 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,640 And so back in the mid 1800s, the British government sent 35 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:52,440 young lads there for minor infractions like stealing a 36 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:58,480 potato during the Irish Potato famine, and fled is like a game 37 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,080 of that I've always wanted to make, you know, I've always 38 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:05,760 loved movies about escape. So you know, like obviously 39 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,000 Shawshank Redemption comes to mind, but also some old old 40 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,640 ones. Count of Monte Cristo's The 41 00:02:12,640 --> 00:02:15,640 Escape movie, Escape from Alcatraz. 42 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,600 And so another thing that kind of motivated me is one of the 43 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,400 very first Euro style games that I ever played that kind of 44 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,520 introduced me to the hobby was a lighter weight game called 45 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:33,360 Cartagena, which is a is a pirate LED jailbreak from a 46 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,360 fortress. I, you know that was back in the 47 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,280 early 2000s I I played the game and inside the box there was a 48 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,280 pamphlet on other Euro style games. 49 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,320 I'm like this, this is different than American games and that's 50 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,200 what launched me into the hobby. And so in a way, this is kind of 51 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,320 a tribute to the very first Euro that I played as well. 52 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,960 And what? So you're you're escaping from 53 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,400 the from the Victorian prison, It's two to four players. 54 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,400 Yes, well, there's a there's a solo and multiplayer variant as 55 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,600 well. So technically 124 players. 56 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:18,720 But you know, I I first started thinking about this when when I 57 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,640 when I played Carcassonne many many years ago. 58 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,400 I love tile placement games and so at some point I began to 59 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:31,560 envision a modular tile placement mechanic where like a 60 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:36,120 prison would grow as the game progressed and every tile in the 61 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,840 game is a a dual purpose tile that can be played to to form 62 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,880 the prison or traded to secure the tools that you need to 63 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,640 escape. And I think I've been watching 64 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:52,920 the the How to Play video and I think actually it's 6 by 6 left 65 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,080 to right and 6 by 6 above. So it really does grow like 66 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:00,160 those Carcassonne maps, and I think the tiles are they can be 67 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:04,320 windows, they can be doors. So you're trying to build out 68 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,080 the the prison that both suits yours, I guess your escape 69 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,040 route, but also hinders other people as well? 70 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,160 Right. There are warders, as they used 71 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,640 to call them, wardens or guards in the game. 72 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,000 And you can play a tile with a little whistle on it that 73 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,760 activates the one of the warders in the game. 74 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:30,320 And then you can move that guard closer to your opponent in in 75 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:35,360 hopes of shackling that person to essentially slow them down or 76 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,760 eventually sending them back to to their bunk. 77 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,160 So you you have to kind of balance thwarting your 78 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,040 opponent's progress without making your own progress. 79 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,960 It really looks like the the as a map grows out you've got that 80 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:54,920 every round you have to play a tile that's mandatory out of 81 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,680 your hands and then you have to use tiles for their he's got, 82 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,120 it's got different icons so you can use some for soaring through 83 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,680 bars which I think it's the file and you've got the boots to walk 84 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,520 in through through pathways so you've got that whole what tile 85 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,600 do I play to move on but at the same time you need to keep the 86 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,640 tiles back to to progress. It's a really fine boundaries. 87 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:17,520 That's right. You're kind of navigating your 88 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,560 way through a labyrinth of corridors and rooms, a mess 89 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:27,840 hall, a yard, a a courtyard, different different rooms in the 90 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:30,840 in the prison. And yeah, you you have different 91 00:05:30,840 --> 00:05:36,440 tools, like a a file or a key or a boot that allows you to move 92 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,400 through an open corridor or through a locked door or 93 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:44,440 through, you know, bars. And you have to work your way to 94 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:49,160 certain rooms so that you can find contraband like stamps or 95 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:54,640 buttons that you then eventually will trade for the tools that 96 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,000 you need to escape. So it's kind of like a first you 97 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,240 look for contraband, then you trade them for the tools you 98 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:04,640 need and then you are ready or in a position to make it over 99 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,280 the wall. And do people always escape? 100 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,360 Not always, I would say. Most of the games. 101 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:16,760 I mean, my wife won't play this all the time now, and it's it's 102 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,720 almost, I'd say 90% of the time that we escape. 103 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,320 OK, well, both of us escape because one person can escape 104 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,680 and then everyone else has one extra turn. 105 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,600 Usually multiple players can escape, but it's the one that 106 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,640 earns the most victory points that wins. 107 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,480 So I'm really curious about. So you have the chaplain, which 108 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:43,440 is kind of a helpful warder, but what's the story with the Combs? 109 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,760 Gareth and I are both bald men, so we don't we don't relate to 110 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:52,040 Combs. So, so any, you know any life in 111 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,160 prison is hard. So anything that's kind of a 112 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,840 luxury item like stamps or buttons, you know that that 113 00:06:57,840 --> 00:07:01,840 prisoners have to use alternative currency, right. 114 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:07,560 So a a a grooming tool or or a stamp or a button, those are, 115 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:13,160 you know, you can trade those essentially for other more 116 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,960 valuable items like a key, a a warder's key. 117 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,640 And so that's, yeah, that's the story behind the comb. 118 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,720 OK. And and each Each contraband 119 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:26,480 item is related to a particular room. 120 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,960 So Combs can be found in in in the washroom. 121 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,880 Plum cake can be found in the mess hall. 122 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:39,160 A stamp can be found in a bunk, so there's kind of a thematic 123 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,760 association with the contraband that you're collecting. 124 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,040 So since you brought it up, I've got to ask, how does one Shank 125 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:53,120 someone with a plum cake? Yeah, you're you're referencing 126 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,280 Ryan Creighton from Nice around the table. 127 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:03,840 He he, he he loves to put fun here and there, but he he, he 128 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,200 used that phrase, take taking a plum cake to to Shank your 129 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:14,040 opponent, just to kind of allude to I guess more some of the more 130 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,480 sinister things that happened. Happen in prison. 131 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,720 Yeah, right. Right. 132 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,360 And we said it's two to, well, one to four, four players. 133 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,280 Any difference in scaling? Does it play well 2-3 and four 134 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,000 or is there any any any rule, mechanics or anything change? 135 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,559 So, so in the three and four player game you actually play 136 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,919 with six more tiles to accommodate more players. 137 00:08:38,919 --> 00:08:41,919 But so it plays really well with 2-3 or four. 138 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,400 And then yeah, I've worked hard to develop the solo player 139 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:53,120 variant this which which introduces a a ghost called the 140 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:57,880 Spectre, which is actually based on a ghost in Spike Island that 141 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:02,480 is part of history. So all you know, all of the 142 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,400 elements of the game relate to some aspect of the prison's 143 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,160 history. I need to go and do some 144 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,040 research on Spike Island. In the back of the rule book 145 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:18,080 there's actually names every every meatball colour is related 146 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:22,640 to an actual character in history that was imprisoned at 147 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:29,080 Spike Island and 11. Fella for instance was guilty of 148 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:33,680 stealing a he, the constable of in England, caught him for 149 00:09:33,680 --> 00:09:37,320 stealing a pint of milk and then later he steal He stole an 150 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,600 entire cow and so he went to Spike Island. 151 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:46,360 Another fella was was caught for being married to two women at 152 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,680 one time and you know, of course bigamy was not allowed. 153 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,000 So Spike Conan do when? Spike Island you won't. 154 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:54,160 I'm just looking at photographs of it now. 155 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,160 I mean, it's incredible, stunning scenery and the and the 156 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,400 size of it. How did you learn about Spike 157 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,200 Island? Like, how did you learn about 158 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,960 this story and then decide I'm going to write, make a game 159 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,480 around this? Well, like I said, I've always 160 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:13,840 been interested in prison movies and I was looking at, you know, 161 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,280 world famous prisons and stumbled onto Spike Island and 162 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,440 started reading about the history and found it 163 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:26,120 fascinating. And it it it's kind of tragic 164 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,400 because you know, in this case we're rooting for the prisoners 165 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,440 because more often than not they were thrown in there for stuff 166 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,320 that we would just kind of roll our eyes at. 167 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:43,360 So you know the the the the British guards are the kind of 168 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,800 the villains in no offense Gareth, but the the villains in 169 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,720 the game and you're rooting for for the prisoners some of them 170 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:57,600 which were you know 1516 year olds that were were you know 171 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:02,960 were down on their luck and had to swipe a a potato that's. 172 00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:06,800 Interesting. Yeah. 173 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:11,120 I'd never heard of this story, and I'm a historian, so I'd 174 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:12,280 never heard this. I was looking up. 175 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,160 I was like, I wonder how, how do you find this, this? 176 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:19,400 It seems kind of obscure and hidden but so fascinating, so 177 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,000 that that's pretty cool. Is there Was there a book that 178 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,280 you discovered or was it just kind of like a specific 179 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,240 inspiration or? Yeah, several, several books. 180 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:29,960 And. And some, of course, some online 181 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,720 literature too. Sure, I can't remember a habit 182 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,320 lying around here somewhere, but I'll have to. 183 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:37,480 Yeah, I'll have to tell you about it. 184 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:39,680 Have you spoken to the prison themselves? 185 00:11:39,680 --> 00:11:42,400 Have you spoken to the the prison themselves to get any 186 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:43,720 research? Out of them. 187 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,640 No, no, they, you know, Spike Island has a website. 188 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,040 And so I I. Did. 189 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,160 Research from them. In fact, I'm I'm hoping to 190 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:58,800 actually visit Spike Island on on a future trip to Ireland. 191 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:00,720 Yeah, I must admit it. It looks. 192 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:01,720 It does, Yeah. Good. 193 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,280 A bit of history I never knew anything about. 194 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,200 So there we go. There's a whole part of of 195 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,200 Ireland I need to go and do some visiting to. 196 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,640 How long has the the game taken to design from to to the point 197 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:14,560 today? Over a year. 198 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,200 OK. Yeah. 199 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:21,040 Anything about the design process that's been challenging 200 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,520 or or which has it been a smooth experience from you from AI 201 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:26,600 guess from concept through to testing through to today? 202 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,600 Well, anytime I do, I do a design I4. 203 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,760 Things are super important to me. 204 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,920 The story, the mechanics of the game, the art and then 205 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,120 production value. You know you have to have a 206 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:44,680 killer theme. Unique mechanics spectacular 207 00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:47,200 art. And Clemens Franz is the artist 208 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,040 of this game. He's you've probably known from 209 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:54,440 Agrikala, Caverna, Lahav recently, Boone Lake. 210 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,280 Just amazing style and then quality bits. 211 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:05,600 You know, I I these meatballs have UV printing that are that 212 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,520 where the it's actually engraved in the wood itself. 213 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:13,080 Oh, OK. Not like a, you know, a. 214 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,360 Silkscreen. Screen where where it's kind of 215 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,720 like a glossy sticker applied to the meatball. 216 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:20,440 I don't, I don't like that. I I like. 217 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:27,920 I like stuff that's either layered on there as a an actual 218 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,840 print, like a two or three color print, or if there's multiple 219 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,080 colors, I think UV is the best. Because the because the images, 220 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,720 I think that's what when I first saw the images of appearing like 221 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:40,680 this say Instagram, they really pop. 222 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:45,280 Like the the little characters, the wardens and the the 223 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,680 convicts, those shots of them inside their cells just really 224 00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:52,680 stands out as a as, as artwork on their own. 225 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,720 And I say you do you do recognise Clemens Fran's work as 226 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,320 soon as you see it. So was that was that, was that a 227 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,400 straight yes from from him in terms of doing the artwork? 228 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,880 It's funny because when I call Clemens or didn't call him, I 229 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,160 actually emailed him. I didn't know what kind of 230 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,320 response I would get. You know, here's this world 231 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,280 famous artist and and and right off the bat he said, Oh yeah, I 232 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,400 know you. Yeah, you're you did feud him. 233 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,760 I said oh oh wow, maybe I'm the famous one. 234 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,680 But it was great. And I and so he said I'm in. 235 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,760 I mean, I I got to believe that like there are hundreds of folks 236 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,360 that want him to design their game. 237 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:36,320 So I felt, I felt great about amazing meeting him via e-mail 238 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,480 and then working with him. It's been a breeze. 239 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:43,520 So he's very responsive. He works quickly. 240 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,720 He's extremely polite and professional. 241 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,400 It's it's been a joy to work with him. 242 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:49,880 And how much of A brief do you give? 243 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,280 Do you just give the concepts of the game and and some style or 244 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,480 does that come from, yeah, not being an artist? 245 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,320 Or all the artists that I work with though if you could hear 246 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:06,200 them talk they they would tell you that I probably over deliver 247 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,440 when it comes to reference material because I'm very 248 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:14,200 particular, you know I like to direct my creative very closely. 249 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:19,200 I I allow for the artist's style and uniqueness to shine through. 250 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:23,400 I don't try to be you know push their pen so to speak. 251 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:29,360 But I do have but I'm familiar with their work and so with 252 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,920 Clemens you know he his his style is very unique and pretty 253 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,080 consistent but there are some deviations So I had to kind of 254 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:42,080 home in on a particular style that that he has done and show 255 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,840 him references of his own work. This is the kind of work I like 256 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:50,480 this is what and almost pretty good about following that and 257 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,760 very open minded when I said could you do this a little bit 258 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:59,200 more and and then of course at the last minute almost almost 259 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,560 the 11th hour I said hey you know I've been thinking about a 260 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,240 plane mat people have been asking about a plane mat. 261 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,080 He he delivered that you know 11th hour and it looks right 262 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,080 stick. So I'm excited about the plane. 263 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,320 Mat, I can't wait. So we've talked about the story. 264 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,000 We've talked about, I guess, the art and design, how's the 265 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:22,480 production? So this goes Live Today, which 266 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:23,800 is the day of the day of the shoe. 267 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,000 What can backers expect in terms of production? 268 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,040 In terms of how long it will take to produce. 269 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,440 Yeah, and and I guess components and is there, is there a deluxe 270 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,680 copy or is it just a straight standard copy for everybody 271 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:39,960 else? Yeah, yeah, no. 272 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:45,400 There are three reward levels. There is the Kickstarter edition 273 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,440 that comes with all the stretch goals, which will be unveiled as 274 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,960 certain goals are earned. And then the stretch goals have 275 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:57,360 to do with historic aspects of the prison. 276 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:02,040 So Clemens designing tiles that are specifically related to the 277 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,200 history of the of the of the prison. 278 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:10,440 And that, and that's what a lot of a lot of backers have told 279 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:15,240 me, that they like stretch goals that have to do with gameplay, 280 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,880 not superfluous extras, but they want the gameplay to be 281 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:21,640 enhanced. So that's what I focused on. 282 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:25,160 There are. So there are. 283 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,560 There's the main reward level, and then there's a reward level 284 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:36,080 with the solo variant, and then there's the reward level with 285 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,320 the main game, the solo variant, and the play net. 286 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,960 Nice. So what is your favorite feature 287 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,360 of Fled? Whether it be a rule or a 288 00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:51,440 component or anything in the game, that's your personal 289 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:52,720 favorite that you're really proud of. 290 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,520 Well, I I love games that that truly have unique mechanics. 291 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:01,920 You know, I mean, there's nothing wrong with the usual 292 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,760 affair of area control and worker placement and action 293 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,080 programming or or hand optimization. 294 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,760 I mean, you name it, there's a a slew of mechanics out there. 295 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,960 But I think it's important to set a game apart with something 296 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:22,800 that hasn't been done before. You know, games, games have 297 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,040 multiple cogs that work together to run the machine. 298 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,440 But if you can make one of those cogs unique, then you're on to 299 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:34,120 something. And so with Fled, there's this 300 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,960 element of a dual use tile, where you have a tile in your 301 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,920 hand, a series of five tiles, and any one of them could be 302 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,840 placed to expand the prison. But then you could also need to 303 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:51,400 hold some back because they have a contraband or tool icon on 304 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,920 them that you might be able to use in in a better way. 305 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,960 So there's this, this management of resources and tiles in your 306 00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:04,440 hand that you're you're thinking about and then the order of 307 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,280 playing them becomes very important and I think that's 308 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:12,560 kind of unique And so I hope people will will get excited 309 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,880 about that and discover all the strategies when they play. 310 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,760 I think when I watch the, when I watch the playthrough, that's 311 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,400 the bit that I was like, oh that's the that's the delicious 312 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,000 decision making part. But I'm going to be in a bit of 313 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,320 a spin here because this is going to be really useful. 314 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,640 But if I give it that up, then I'm not going to deal with this. 315 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:31,640 And how much forward planning can you do? 316 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,760 How many rounds could I? Two or two or three? 317 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,640 How if I'm? 11 So after you lay a tile in in 318 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,400 the prison, you play two more actions and replenish your hand. 319 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,440 And one of the actions that you can do is let's say there's a 320 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,960 tile that you really would like to use, but you don't. 321 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,120 It's it's premature. You want to use it later. 11 322 00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:55,920 Action is you can surrender that tile to the Governor now. 323 00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:58,800 Later on, when you're replenishing your hand, one of 324 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,000 the tiles can be replenished from the Governor's inventory. 325 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,480 You can take back the tile you had previously put there. 326 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,840 However, while it's in the Governor's inventory, some other 327 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,000 players could potentially grab that tile. 328 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,560 So it's kind of a temporary place to store something you 329 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,920 might need later, but look out it someone else might. 330 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:16,800 Grab it. High risk, high risk strategy, 331 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,760 yeah. Another thing I saw was the the 332 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:24,960 way that if you get caught then you get the the ball in chain. 333 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,400 Right, right. If if if you play a whistle tile 334 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:35,000 and move a warder onto an opponent's space, then you get 335 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,520 to draw from one tile from their hand, flip it over and then it 336 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,200 adds it. It it connects right to that 337 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:47,800 player's prisoner tile and it depicts that prisoner with a 338 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:54,880 little shackle and you can you know it it it it just simply 339 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,880 means that that player has a -1 victory point at the end of the 340 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,800 game. But if that player gets caught 341 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,720 again, he has to go all the way back to his bunk. 342 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,160 He is de shackled at that time but now he's kind of has to 343 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,720 start the central location again. 344 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,760 So it it it's forgiving in the sense that you can kind of start 345 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:21,760 over again, but it doesn't necessarily, you know, devastate 346 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,600 you. Because with the right tools, 347 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,920 you can navigate pretty quickly around the prison, especially 348 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,920 with spoons. Spoons allow you to kind of 349 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:35,280 tunnel multiple tiles away, so if you have a couple of spoons 350 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,960 in your hand, you can, you know, shoot across the prison pretty 351 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,880 quickly. Yeah, I do like that The 11 352 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,480 spoon or two spoons or you can make a musical instrument was 353 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,360 was also an option on the on the video. 354 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,160 Yeah, I think, I think, I think that's the thematic part of it, 355 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,280 whether it's the the the shackle which is when you flip flip it 356 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,320 over and you you build out that piece versus you know the files, 357 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,320 it all fits together really smoothly. 358 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,480 When when do you think this will ship? 359 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,480 I know that's a tricky one with the Kickstarter. 360 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,920 How far away is this? A year or is this? 361 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,520 Yeah, no. Well, so it all kind of comes 362 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,880 down to the manufacturer and whether or not all of your I's 363 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:23,040 are dotted and T's are crossed. And so I have once once the 364 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:28,360 campaign funds knock on wood, then it's usually a six or seven 365 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:34,000 month process. So you know, I I pull you know, 366 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,280 a month after the campaign goes by, all the orders are confirmed 367 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,240 through backer kit and then I pull the trigger with Panda. 368 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,760 And then Panda will take you know 6-6 months essentially to 369 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,600 have it ready to ship to all the worldwide hubs. 370 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,320 So that means that it could ship as early as September. 371 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,200 Yeah, nice. Fingers crossed. 372 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:58,360 That would be amazing. Great. 373 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,760 What did you learn from the feudal campaign? 374 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,920 Because I think you did three or four, right? 375 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:12,560 Yeah, Feudal was my first baby. It it, you know, its its 376 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:19,640 popularity took me by surprise. Truthfully, it was kind of a a 377 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:24,880 game that kind of combined my love of medieval fantasy with my 378 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:29,480 growing love of strategic Euros. It's also kind of echoed my 379 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,280 obsession with economic games that reward resource management. 380 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:44,600 But the the success of it has caused me to do 3 print runs and 381 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,360 and now I'm doing a fourth print run in the form of the 382 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,320 Centennial edition of the game on Game Found. 383 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:58,600 And it's going to feature, you know, some art additions to the 384 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,320 board, a special clockwork behemoth, and a few other 385 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,400 surprises. But I've learned basically 386 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,480 everything about the international game publishing 387 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,720 business that you can imagine. I mean in the early days I 388 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,200 gleaned all the information I could from James Matthey's site 389 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:27,040 Rest His Soul, as well as the Stonemire blog and other you 390 00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:30,200 know, fellow publishers that have kind of been there, done 391 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:35,840 that and learned all about local is that, you know, localizing 392 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,920 games internationally like Feudum is is in 11 different 393 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,960 languages and our worldwide localization partners in in so 394 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:52,240 many different languages. I learned that there are very 395 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:59,800 dedicated fans that will e-mail me and will it will will send me 396 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,920 packages with their game expansion ideas. 397 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,040 And you know, initially I was like, oh oh you know what, what 398 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:11,680 are you doing? Get get a life. 399 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,800 But then I realized, hey, these ideas are good and I found 400 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:21,400 myself collaborating with with fans out there. 401 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:27,000 In fact, Rudders and Ramparts, which was a artisan edition set 402 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:32,760 of castles and vessels, was all inspired by a very dedicated fan 403 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:40,360 who sent me emails of drawings and painted miniatures and 3D 404 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:42,920 sculptures that he and a sculptor worked on. 405 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:50,240 And they were so amazing that I said, hey, I'm not going to 406 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:56,280 ignore you this time, let's talk and and we collaborated and of 407 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,480 course I gave gave them credit on the Rudders and Ramparts page 408 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:05,040 and now I probably talked to him once a month. 409 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,000 Amazing. That's awesome. 410 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,480 So what? Because you've learned. 411 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,560 It sounds like you're you've learned so much. 412 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,720 What one piece of advice would you give to a new designer 413 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:22,240 getting ready to publish a game? I'm going to share, I think, the 414 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,080 first sentence out of Jamie Stag Meyer's A Crowdfunders Guide to 415 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,640 Kickstarter. You don't have to launch 416 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,920 tomorrow. There's kind of this inane sense 417 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,960 of urgency where people think, oh gosh, I better do everything 418 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,640 quickly and get it out the door. But you have to have everything 419 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,480 ready. You know, you have to build a a 420 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:51,040 presence on social media. You have to have a, you know, 421 00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:56,720 presence on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook and you 422 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,880 know a website with a landing page and start collecting emails 423 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,440 about people who are interested in your launch. 424 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,120 And that takes time. You have to go to the cons 425 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:16,240 because you know, even if you don't have anything to sell or 426 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,560 even if you don't have a prototype, going to the cons 427 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,320 helps you understand the business better and you 428 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,720 inevitably will meet people that play an instrumental role in 429 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,680 your company's growth and you don't even see it coming. 430 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,240 You just go there and you meet people and you network and 431 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:39,640 before you know it you're you're learning and you're you're 432 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,360 better able to navigate the business and and so yeah you 433 00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:46,640 have to kind of immerse yourself. 434 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,120 It's not. It's hard for it to be a part 435 00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:52,920 time thing, right? I think it's a shift. 436 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,040 I've seen that. I guess I've been doing 437 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,480 Kickstart since 2012 where people were doing it as a part 438 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,440 time thing and they're the ones that often got in trouble. 439 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,440 But you know, these days you know the you say the prep work 440 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,680 you see put in in, but that's the socials, whether it's play 441 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,000 testing or just engagement like at cons, I'm thinking. 442 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,000 Yeah, I think one of the biggest decisions that a would be 443 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:21,360 entrepreneur has to make is do I want to self publish or do I 444 00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:25,320 want to what what they call speed date at a convention and 445 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,560 talk to other indie publishers or even big publishers who will 446 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:35,840 then enter into a royalty agreement. 447 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:44,920 So I either, let's say that I, let's say that Z Man Games meets 448 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,120 me at a conference and they like my idea and they say we'll give 449 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,120 you 5 to 7% royalties and we'll handle all the manufacturing, 450 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,600 all the marketing, we'll take creative control of your game, 451 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,640 we'll choose our own artist. And you know what? 452 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,080 We're going to change a few rules as well. 453 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,960 You're OK with that and you're OK with getting 5 to 7% 454 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,960 royalties, then you'd better hope that that game sells 455 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,840 millions of copies because 5 to 7% is, you know, 5 to 7%. 456 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:18,480 Or or alternatively, you do everything yourself and that is 457 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:19,600 a lot of work. That's a lot. 458 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,560 Of work, that is. You know, trying to figure it 459 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,800 all out and and and you have to be smart about what you don't 460 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,640 know. You have to understand. 461 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,000 You have to be self aware and know what is good artwork. 462 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,800 You know you don't want to put out something that's shoddy. 463 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,560 What are good mechanics? Had it had you know? 464 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:40,960 Has the game been thoroughly play tested? 465 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,960 Do you have a social media presence? 466 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:54,040 Have you engaged with enough influencers and and and have you 467 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,920 been on any podcasts like To Meatball for example? 468 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:00,800 Thank you for that. Thank you. 469 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,000 It is. I think it is that that you said 470 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,160 that have you got a good story? Have you got the right design? 471 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,120 Have you got the right artwork? And then the production. 472 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,920 There's this, those four alone. There's a shape of advice and 473 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,800 guidance that you know that all of them are complex, even that 474 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,080 production part that you say Panda, but people have tried so 475 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,280 many different routes. Obviously people see things and 476 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,360 visually quite quickly and you can, you know, you can start to 477 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:28,600 lose traction. Just on the fact that the 478 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,280 components are subpar. Yeah, it's a. 479 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,920 It is a. It's a tricky 1 to navigate, 480 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,400 yeah for sure. I've got one last question for 481 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,680 you, Mark. It's probably the most difficult 482 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,840 question of the show. What is hitting your table right 483 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,120 now? Oh wow. 484 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:53,680 There's a game about throwing lavish parties in Victorian 485 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,520 England called Obsession. We didn't we? 486 00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,040 Didn't prime you about this, did we? 487 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,320 Promised we did not. So we we talk about obsession 488 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,400 nearly every episode. It's a bit of an in joke that we 489 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:06,400 talk about. Interesting. 490 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:07,360 So. So yes. 491 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:08,600 Tell us more about obsession. Yes. 492 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,600 Yeah. Well, I was, I was at a a local 493 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,880 miniature market and I was waiting for a friend who was 494 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,360 late. He was 10 minutes late, 20 495 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,680 minutes late. I'm like, OK And then just some 496 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,080 random guy said, OK, we need another person at our table 497 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,440 playing this game. I'm teaching him like, OK, I sat 498 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,560 down, met a complete stranger. He taught me obsession along 499 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,800 with a couple other folks. And it was, you know, Tableau 500 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,600 built well, you know it, right? Yeah, we do. 501 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,760 Getting to boss a bunch of servants around, I guess, and 502 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:46,000 throwing lavish parties and then you know, being self deprecating 503 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,520 about being a rich American because you've kind of guessed 504 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:55,200 these points if you're a rich American, uncouth American. 505 00:31:55,560 --> 00:32:01,360 But I I the, the theme of the game meshed really well with the 506 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,520 mechanics and it was just fun. And I've been playing that with 507 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,480 my wife a lot. She's beat me the last three 508 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,280 times in a row. I just, I can't. 509 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,840 I can't figure it out. Let's see what else I don't 510 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,520 know. Some oldies, you know, I've been 511 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,880 playing a little bit of Goa. OK. 512 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:25,920 I've been playing RAW. What else have I played? 513 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:32,560 Got to look at my my bookshelf. Oh, there's a game called do you 514 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,400 remember ERA? It's it's a game called ERA 515 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:42,280 where it's it's almost like a you have a a pegboard where into 516 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,920 which you you put medieval buildings and then you surround. 517 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,800 It Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there are there's 518 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:52,920 floods and disasters. And us? 519 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,680 Little bridges and each building does something a little 520 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,680 different and you roll dice to to to gather resources and 521 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,400 whatnot. That's that's a fun game. 522 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,080 So yeah. It's a great game, yeah. 523 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,200 I always wonder whether there's probably any more errors or it's 524 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,840 oh, they stop in there. I I've, I've got, I've purchased 525 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,080 every, yeah. Yeah, I think I'm missing two of 526 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,600 the little boxes and then they're really hard to find. 527 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,840 So they. Are really hard to find. 528 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,120 Yeah, we had Dan, Dan Halligan on the show when they did the 529 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,280 last Kickstarter. Back in back in October. 530 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,160 Back in October, so that's worth a listen. 531 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,520 Anyone who wants to know more about Obsession, because yeah, I 532 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,000 think that's one of the games when we got PJS coming over in a 533 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,800 couple of weeks time to UK. So Obsession will be on the 534 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,200 first times, first games. I think we can have to play PJ 535 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,240 dressed up in Victorian costume, of course. 536 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:47,920 I've. I've got myself. 537 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:49,640 I'm coming. Yep. 538 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,720 Tea and scones and jams. Any other English tradition I 539 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,080 can find? So thank you Mark, for joining 540 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,160 us today. Campaign, for anyone who's 541 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,520 listening, is live on the 5th of March. 542 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,680 How Long's the campaign on for? 30 days 30. 543 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,960 Days. So please do go and check out 544 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,080 Fled. They'll be on our socials today 545 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,000 on all channels. So with links to the Kickstarter 546 00:34:17,159 --> 00:34:18,639 if you can't find your way there. 547 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,480 Otherwise the best luck. Best of luck, Absolutely This 548 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,880 one, and I think we'll speak to you again with the feudal 549 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:27,840 release in a few more months time. 550 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:29,400 Sounds. Good to me guys. 551 00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:31,120 OK. Thanks everyone for listening. 552 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,280 Thanks everyone for listening. Please subscribe. 553 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,199 And as always, we'd love to hear your thoughts and ideas, so make 554 00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:40,120 sure to leave those in the comments. 555 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,280 And don't forget, you can also chat with us both on Instagram 556 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:45,920 at Meatball to Meatball.