1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,840 Welcome to Maple to Maple, uniting players around the 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:06,640 world, a 30 minute exploration of TJ and Gareth's four-game 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:09,480 experiences from across both sides of the Atlantic. 4 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:12,720 Each episode they share their thoughts and opinions on the 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,280 world of four games, including their favorite themes, games, 6 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,840 hot topics, and much, much more. Hello guys, and welcome to 7 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,480 Episode 97, A Board Game Revolution. 8 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,760 Today we're going to talk about AI in art and the ethics behind 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:31,920 it as it affects the board game community. 10 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:36,160 And as always, I am PJ. And I'm Gareth. 11 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:38,040 We are back together. Can you believe it? 12 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,320 This is great. Honestly, I didn't have to cope 13 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:46,320 last week without without you to an intro itself was a pressure 14 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,320 that you know that I I haven't got to this week, but we have 15 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,400 got a guest with us. We do. 16 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,000 This week we've got Chris. Chris, how are you? 17 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,760 I'm good. So you chose this topic for us 18 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,240 to talk about? I suggested it. 19 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,640 You agreed to it. And I think it yeah, I mean, 20 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,320 it's something really interesting because I, we were 21 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:13,760 having a preamble before the show and we're talking about AI 22 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,720 and I use it at work and we're trying to work out those 23 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:18,360 boundaries of when it's right and wrong. 24 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,600 So I think as we talked through this episode, we'll get some 25 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,960 good discussion around, you know, the, you say that AI and 26 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,200 Chris, what's your background? What's your background in terms 27 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,760 of in terms of how this AI in the board game industry might 28 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,040 affect you or could affect your just AI in general effects 29 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,720 you're, I think you're an artist. 30 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:44,840 Yeah, So I have worked in the film industry, spent over 10 31 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:49,840 years doing graphic design, social media, web design, web 32 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:57,120 management and so a lot of what the public sees, AI, generative 33 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,920 content has a direct effect on what I've spent 15 years doing. 34 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,639 Have you seen a shift how, how recently is AI started to be a 35 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,080 significant shift in terms of maybe art production? 36 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,920 Is it since like ChatGPT and Jenna has appeared or have you 37 00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:20,920 seen things coming before then? That's a tough question. 38 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,920 Graphic design hasn't been my main thing for about 3 years 39 00:02:26,920 --> 00:02:30,160 now. OK, So I haven't been as head 40 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:36,320 down in that world, but I think we've seen a lot of stuff 41 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,760 pervading popular culture these days. 42 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,680 I mean, it's hard to go a day without seeing somebody share an 43 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:49,120 AI thing on Facebook. And a lot of people think it's 44 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:54,480 real, right? And they're sharing it probably 45 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,680 from an honest point of view. But I sit there looking at it 46 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:05,800 and saying your whole point is missed on me because of what I 47 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,040 would call the fake artwork of their post. 48 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,640 Yeah, I guess you're, I guess there's a kind of AI aware kind 49 00:03:12,640 --> 00:03:16,240 of if you know, you kind of know what signals to look for the 50 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:20,920 either tone of the script or the OR the style of the artwork, 51 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,520 which is, you know, I think we're going to talk about some 52 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:23,920 of the games that have got AI in them. 53 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:27,200 Absolutely. Yeah, Yeah. 54 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:29,920 And Chris, and you are a gamer as well, so. 55 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,040 Correct. What's your favorite game? 56 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,400 Oh, that's an unfair question, Gareth, that. 57 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,760 Is an unfair question. What is that? 58 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,680 Just keeps keeps the ball game theme going and we're going to 59 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,840 go rock into. Well, I did the Pub Me Ball 60 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:50,160 ranking back at the beginning of the year, so I'll just go with 61 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,440 that. The number one game for me at 62 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,840 the time was Scholars of the South Tigris. 63 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:57,280 Oh good. Choice. 64 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,680 That is a meteor fair as well. Yeah, I love that. 65 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,600 Game little Shem Phillips there for you. 66 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:03,240 Wow. Yeah. 67 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:05,840 Right, PJ, where we going? Where do you want to start on 68 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,680 this episode then? So I, I thought we'd start with 69 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,720 just a little bit of a background on Chris, just to 70 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,080 introduce you to our listeners so they know where you're coming 71 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,519 from. Tell us about, you know, how'd 72 00:04:17,519 --> 00:04:21,880 you get into the modern gaming as a hobby? 73 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:25,680 And then you can extrapolate as an artist as well, however you 74 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:31,800 want to tackle it. Well as far as gaming goes, I 75 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,080 grew up playing games anytime our family was together we were 76 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:39,160 playing Domino's cards, all sorts of games. 77 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,200 I used to play sorry with my aunt all the time when I was a 78 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,240 kid. And so games have always been a 79 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,360 part of my life and the same for my wife. 80 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,840 So when we started hanging out we would play gin while we sat 81 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:55,680 and ate lunch or ate dinner. We would play hand and foot 82 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,440 canasto anytime we had friends over. 83 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:06,160 And so it was an easy jump into the hobby when one of my best 84 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,440 friends came over one day and was like, hey, I've got this 85 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,240 game, I want you to play. And we played it, had a good 86 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,680 time with it. And shortly thereafter, the 87 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,600 friend that got him into the hobby, they came over to my 88 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,600 house, brought Terraforming Mars. 89 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:26,360 And this is like the second or third game that I played in the 90 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:31,760 hobby. I didn't understand what was 91 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,720 happening for three hours, but as soon as it was over, I knew I 92 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,400 needed more. Yeah, I need more. 93 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:46,120 And that was end of 2016, around Christmas time. 94 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,320 And it's just grown from there, right? 95 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:55,120 Yeah, absolutely. You had mentioned that you you 96 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,400 were an artist. I think you said in our pre 97 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,120 conversation that you were a graphic designer. 98 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,920 Have you done any work in the game community? 99 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,800 Is there any artwork in games that we wouldn't see or know 100 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,120 about? I wish. 101 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,440 OK. I've tried. 102 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,160 When I was transitioning out of my job in New Orleans, I'd 103 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,920 applied for several board game company opportunities, and even 104 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:18,880 since then I've applied for some as well. 105 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:23,040 But you know, it's all about who you know, probably and. 106 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,880 Yeah. I have some friends in the 107 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:31,320 industry but none in that regard that have panned out for a job. 108 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,840 And is it is, is it permanent roles or is it a lot of 109 00:06:34,840 --> 00:06:37,280 freelance? I've no it depends. 110 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:41,120 Yeah, there's, there's a lot of job postings. 111 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,040 Hey, we've got this project we need help on. 112 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,000 But then there's a lot of companies that one of the things 113 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,360 that I've applied for several positions is a marketing graph 114 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:55,160 designer and not so much working on the games themselves, but 115 00:06:55,160 --> 00:07:00,200 working on promoting the games and sell sheets and convention 116 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,880 graphics and promotional materials for the company and 117 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,480 their games. So maybe one day. 118 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:13,200 I did help open a game store here in Oklahoma a couple years 119 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,760 ago and was a part of that for about a year and a half and have 120 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:19,960 since moved on to do some other things. 121 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,360 So I, I thought that was a great, let's just jump into AI, 122 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,720 right? So you, you're an artist, you're 123 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:35,880 trying to get into the industry. How do you see AI changing, 124 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,960 evolving the industry from an artist's standpoint? 125 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,160 That's a heavy question. Yeah. 126 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:50,160 I brought it on myself. So I think there's several 127 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,080 things and there's several layers to that question. 128 00:07:55,200 --> 00:08:00,560 From an art standpoint, and this may be controversial for some 129 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:05,240 people and spoiler alert, I have a very harsh opinion against AI 130 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,920 artwork. I think it cheapens the games. 131 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:17,920 I think it doesn't put out as good of a product as a human 132 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:24,720 arted game because there's no emotion and life experience and 133 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,360 passion behind it. So that's you know, that's one 134 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,720 layer I think it cheapens it. I think it also brings up a huge 135 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:40,120 ethical dilemma where typically these generated images are 136 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:44,240 compiling pieces of art from all over the Internet. 137 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,360 And. It's taking pieces of human 138 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,760 produced artwork and compiling them into something different. 139 00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:01,160 And in doing that, the original artists receive no credit or 140 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,960 compensation, and there's questions about breaking 141 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,720 copyright laws because of original artwork. 142 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:14,320 And so I think that brings up the big ethical thing inside of. 143 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,680 Artwork. And that I think for me too, and 144 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:22,280 we'll get into this more later probably is it's more than just 145 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:27,760 board gaming. I mean AI is changing our world 146 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,200 right now. And the question is in good ways 147 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,320 or bad ways? It's probably both I think. 148 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:37,400 That's. Very little, I think. 149 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,760 I mean, we, we, we were chatting around whether we use this 150 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:48,040 outside of, you know, ball gaming and we use AIA lot where 151 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:53,520 I work usually for either trying to do some deep analytics and 152 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,040 things that we haven't got the capability for, but always with 153 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,960 a word of caution about whether where we're reading the data 154 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,760 from. So we try to not use external 155 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,360 sources and you can build it off our own data set, knowing where 156 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,240 that's come from back to the ethics, but also places where we 157 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,680 haven't got maybe the skill set or the manpower. 158 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,600 So we've built quite a few models, but it's always to try 159 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:23,640 and either improve the workflow, but doesn't often end up in 160 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,200 front of a customer. So it's that it's that kind of 161 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,000 learning element, element to it. When I get close to the board 162 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,400 games or to Chris's point about the artwork. 163 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,480 I, I do, you can tell. I mean, I don't know whether 164 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,440 it's obvious, but you know, we, I tried to make it a logo for 165 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,280 Bourgain Meeple using Dali, but all of it just doesn't. 166 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:49,200 It's got a look to it that just, it just, you just know, it's not 167 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,200 that human touch, which I bet gets it, that artistic integrity 168 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,720 that Chris was mentioning. It's not coming from its own 169 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,160 inspirational area. It's coming from thousands, well 170 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,840 millions, probably billions. I don't mean images. 171 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,400 There are that it's been that it's been trained on, but 172 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,000 there's always that look. And even if you say like I want 173 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,160 an artist, a futuristic look or I want a medieval, they all have 174 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,800 that same, I can't describe it kind of look to it. 175 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,400 It's like this filter that covers. 176 00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:21,160 Yeah, yeah. And it just looks. 177 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:23,960 Fake. Yeah, just looks fake. 178 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,360 And, you know, I thinking earlier about the games that we 179 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,440 have, and I know that paths, Paths of civilisation had a lot 180 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,400 of debate. I think it was Essen released 181 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,800 last year. I think it was last year, yeah. 182 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,760 Last. Yeah, where where the artwork is 183 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,960 I think in the in the majority is AI LED. 184 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,680 But Chris, I think you were saying that it it has had some 185 00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:51,920 touching up or some artist artistic overlays to it, but. 186 00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:57,040 SO mentions it in the rule book and if I can just read it. 187 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:57,640 Real. Yeah. 188 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,440 Yeah, yeah. Because it brings up a good 189 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:04,640 question, I think it said image banks, photographs, artificial 190 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:09,240 intelligence generations or works from the public domain may 191 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,680 have been used as working elements in the design or 192 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:16,960 development of certain graphical and textual aspects of the game. 193 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,800 So it's not just artwork there. The elements of this game are 194 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,360 not the result of a simple request to an artificial 195 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,640 intelligence. Instead, they are the product of 196 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,040 an artistic direction process that includes compositing, 197 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,640 editing and careful retouching by real humans with real bits of 198 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,720 neurons. Yeah, I mean, it's so loose, 199 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:40,360 isn't it? It's really vague. 200 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,920 But obviously they know it's an issue because they're saying at 201 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:48,440 the end, real humans with real neurons, you know, they went a 202 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,600 little dramatic with it. A little bit. 203 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,200 Yeah, so I think but. That brings up a Gray area. 204 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:58,160 It's it is really grey because how much of that card is is it 205 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:03,080 5% AI or is it 95% AI? How much did you pay for the 206 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:03,920 card? Did you pay? 207 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:05,640 I don't know what a card's artwork. 208 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,640 Let's make it up. It's £100 a card, but but how 209 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,280 much that money actually went to the artists or, or did they save 210 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:17,320 the money? Now I, I think as a as a not an 211 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,160 artist and if I was the beginning of that sentence, it 212 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,600 said in the development, I think at that point, if I had to 213 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:28,160 design A game and needed some ideas, I would I would use AI to 214 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:32,880 help give me some creativity, but then you'd pass on to an 215 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,200 artist for real. That said, this is kind of the 216 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,360 ideas I have just to get me moving more than me and 217 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,760 scribbling something on a bit of paper, which I can assure you 218 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,120 would be terrible. But it is that it is that fine? 219 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,600 It's not a fine line. There is a line and it becomes a 220 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:54,960 replacement for the artist versus supporting a process to 221 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:56,720 try and get to an end game end result. 222 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:03,840 I think that's the key is support versus replacement, 223 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,280 right? I think, I think what I picked 224 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,120 up on when you were reading that, couple things I noticed is 225 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,720 so I talked about public domain, which got me to thinking about 226 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,960 fair use and copyright law, which in my line of work is 227 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:24,360 really prevalent and important in records management and 228 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,840 archiving. So I was also thinking about Dan 229 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,880 Halligan from Obsession, right. Garrett, if you remember when he 230 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:38,000 was on, he talked about how he used public domain images and 231 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,840 that helped direct the theme of that game. 232 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,440 And here's how we insert obsession into. 233 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:53,200 AI 18th century ball gaming. Right, but he, he used public 234 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:57,920 domain images for his for a lot of his artwork, which you know, 235 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,480 and I have no problem with that. Of course, I think he's he's 236 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,400 putting together the overall work and I think that's where we 237 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,920 get into the does AI support or does it replace right. 238 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,000 I think that's. That's quite a good experiment 239 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,800 to go then take some of those cards and see if you said to 240 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:18,360 create me an 18th century de de de de picture of AI don't know 241 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,360 aristocrat, what would it look like and you and you just know. 242 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,440 And then compare it. Compare it to, I guess, original 243 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,760 artwork or drawings through time. 244 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,360 So it's interesting, there's a podcast that I've listened to a 245 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,680 few times called Daily Creative. Nothing to do with board games, 246 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:43,840 but on a recent episode he had Andy Crouch on and he talked 247 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,600 about the difference between tools and devices. 248 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,840 And I think his thoughts there apply pretty much across the 249 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,920 board when you consider AI, because they're talking about 250 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,680 technological advancements and if they're helping or hindering 251 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,880 us as a society. So Andy said devices are meant 252 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:07,680 to replace human effort and skill, substituting something 253 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,040 humans used to do. So devices become a substitute 254 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:15,760 for human work, whereas tools are meant to be implements in 255 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:20,240 people's hands that require practice, skill, and effort. 256 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,120 And I think as we talk about this, and we've already kind of 257 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,640 hinted at it, right? Is it, is it a tool that we can 258 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:34,360 use to enhance or help in some way? 259 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,200 But I think the danger of it is, is it's already becoming a 260 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,640 device, right, that is replacing human work. 261 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,840 Right. And that's, that's the danger 262 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,920 and that's why it's such a big important topic. 263 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:57,040 And not everybody thinks that. I see on some of the board game 264 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,200 geek threads for Path of Civilization. 265 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,520 And another big one that really started the conversation in the 266 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,240 board gaming world was the more Terraforming Mars Kickstarter 267 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,359 last fall. And there are people that don't 268 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,240 care and they say, what does it matter to me? 269 00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:16,599 I just want my game and I want to have fun. 270 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:24,720 But it does matter because it is becoming such a big deal in so 271 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,680 many facets of our world. What? 272 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:30,600 What happened? What happened on tariff on Mars? 273 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,680 I clearly missed the entire. So right before they launched 274 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,920 their Kickstarter for I think it was more Tariff on Mars, which 275 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,800 was just a bunch of promo content, extra maps that had 276 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:48,040 previously been fan made. Kickstarter instituted a policy 277 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:55,480 that creators have to be upfront with the use of AI in their 278 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,720 project. And so they had to be honest 279 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,880 about it. And it was really the first time 280 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,360 that I was made aware of this being a thing in the board game 281 00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:09,400 world. And it the conversation 282 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,440 exploded. They had prominent other 283 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:17,040 publishers going to social media. 284 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,440 Patrick Leader from Leader Games called them out like really 285 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:26,000 harshly and said when they used clipart, which Terry from Mars 286 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,280 art works always been terrible and that was some people's 287 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,400 argument as AI art is an improvement for that game. 288 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,440 But Patrick Leader said when they used clipart in previous 289 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,760 versions, I turned up my nose and just played the game. 290 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,440 I'm astounded that they found a way to make the situation worse, 291 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:45,320 but here we are. Right. 292 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,040 And then he talked about how the game industry is based on the 293 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,480 efforts of creative and talented folks, and the system is built 294 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,800 to make us as cheap as possible. Many designers accept the risk 295 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,840 by only getting paid if their game is signed further 296 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:02,240 published. Sorry. 297 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,320 Further pushing artists out of the system further trivializes 298 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,240 the artistic expression of the form by supporting it. 299 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,800 You're just going to continue seeing this race to the bottom. 300 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,640 And there was another publisher that called it out and said they 301 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,360 were infuriated and disappointed over it. 302 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:24,840 And they said there's no ethical use of AI art for profit. 303 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,320 And I think that's where the kicker comes in. 304 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,920 Yeah, I think that I think that tools and device and then is it 305 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:36,320 for profit and and the usage those two I do the piece around 306 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,920 the is it a tool or is it a device to improve things and 307 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:41,720 inside your point about making money from it. 308 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,440 Because you look at that Terraform Mars Kickstarter, they 309 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:50,640 made over 2.2 million X dollars and almost 20,000 backers. 310 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:58,000 Now again, that game has not historically had great art and 311 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:04,480 they used well clipart. That was my brain stopped and 312 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:10,040 they've used clipart and stock images and it's never been good. 313 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,280 But they've taken a step further to bring up a question of 314 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,520 ethical. So so is it that they replaced 315 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,920 the clip art and the stock art with AI art? 316 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,280 Is that is that the was that the swing they did? 317 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,240 From to my knowledge, yeah. Yeah, OK. 318 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,080 I I was going to back the Kickstarter until I saw that 319 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,080 because like I mentioned, Terraform Mars is one of my 320 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,880 first games. I've bought everything for it 321 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,000 and it still has a place on my shelf today. 322 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,880 But at that point, I said I'm not going to support this 323 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:49,200 Kickstarter because I have such a staunch stance against AI art 324 00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:51,480 and like, like I said, for profit. 325 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,360 That's the thing. Because how many designers out 326 00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:58,320 there using it for prototyping and play testing? 327 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:04,200 Because if you, I know P JS a huge play tester, sometimes it's 328 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,280 hard to get into the game because it's just white pieces 329 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,640 of paper and you know, so if you can take a little bit of time to 330 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:17,480 add a touch to your prototype, it might get noticed more, you 331 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:22,160 might get better feedback. But are you going to take that 332 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,800 and use it to make the money off of with the final product? 333 00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:28,560 PJC back that play testing point. 334 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,560 Have you have you had any play testing where they've used AR 335 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,320 work? And if they if you haven't, 336 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,920 would you want them to declare that or a little sign on the 337 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:46,040 table when you were testing? So not to my knowledge, like 338 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,640 I've always made the assumption, but now AI is something I have 339 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:56,400 to incorporate into my mindset to ask when I get a print and 340 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:01,080 play, you know, prototype. So I don't know. 341 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,280 No one has ever been upfront and said, hey, this is AI art. 342 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,760 To your second question, would I want them to let me know? 343 00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:10,920 I think. Yes. 344 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,680 And for the sole reason of while I have no answers to any of the 345 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,560 questions we've been talking about, I say yes because I 346 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:24,720 believe at my core, open debate. And that's what I love about 347 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,400 this. I think that this is an 348 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,600 important topic for us to talk about and do it in an 349 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,120 intelligent and calm way so that we can breed some form of 350 00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:38,880 resolution and accord and back to our, you know, the purpose of 351 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,160 this podcast uniting players around the world. 352 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,640 And I think AI touches all of us. 353 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,000 And that seems to be the thesis of this episode. 354 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:51,800 AI effects all of us, not just in gaming, but in everything 355 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,240 else. And I think at the core is the 356 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,880 tools versus the device, right? So if you're using it as a tool 357 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,600 for a prototype, yeah, I would probably do the same. 358 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:09,880 As a terrible artist myself, I would probably go ahead and say, 359 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,600 hey, you know what, I'm going to use AI art for my prototype, but 360 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:18,920 I would be upfront with my play testers and, and not let it 361 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,720 become a device because, you know, I think that's important. 362 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,400 Because then then in the rule book, either you would just say 363 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,680 AI was used to inspire or help, or you don't, or you don't 364 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,120 mention it at all because actually it, it has no impact on 365 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:37,120 the on the artists who actually did the artwork. 366 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:40,360 Great. Because a brief if you like some 367 00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:43,520 scope to what was what kind of is in your head, but that's it. 368 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,960 Because any artwork comes from some sort of inspiration. 369 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:53,560 What I was just recently had designed a logo for the new 370 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:58,320 venture that we're doing. I looked at a ton of logo 371 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:04,240 designs in that industry to see what direction I wanted to go 372 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,040 and define inspiration. You. 373 00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:11,800 Know so that's it's I don't know that looking at it for 374 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:16,680 inspiration is near as much of A Gray area as taking it to print. 375 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,120 Right, that's where. And I, I don't know, it's also 376 00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:26,000 astounding to me because there's a Polygon article article that 377 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:31,000 interviewed the president of Indie Game Studios, which is one 378 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,720 of the kind of Co publishers of Terraforming Mars. 379 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,600 One of his answers to the questions just blew me away. 380 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,360 He said using this as an automation tool to help certain 381 00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:47,680 aspects, it's certainly going to hurt people like there are many. 382 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,400 Yeah. This has negative impacts and 383 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,880 implications for the future of not just the board gaming 384 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,560 industry, he said. This is where we're at. 385 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,840 It's the growing pain stage. I don't think this is going to 386 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,680 go back in the bag. It's too powerful a technology. 387 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,280 It's used in too many places already, and he mentions a few. 388 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,880 So there's high end luxury watch companies that are admitting to 389 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,360 using this for their copywriting in their ads and also generating 390 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:19,120 ideas for watches. There's a couple of studios out 391 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:23,000 there on the TV side of things that are using AI as part of 392 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,200 their development, and even news outlets that are using it to 393 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,400 write their news stories. So I mean, we're talking what's 394 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:38,440 the impact of careers, right? Things people studied for and 395 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,800 have degrees in and years of experience. 396 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,640 But we can just put it in a computer system and say go find 397 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:47,920 another job. Yeah. 398 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,360 That's that's where it's a problem. 399 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,360 And then even the the Frick's games, which is the other kind 400 00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,880 of company behind the doors, the CEO Enoch said. 401 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:04,600 I see no way to turn back time. Illustrators lose jobs for every 402 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,360 new tool that is developed. Right. 403 00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:14,040 Like it's, it's, it's a little bit, it's a little disingenuous 404 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,960 because it's not absolutely true, but it is partially true. 405 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,120 We see a lot of that. We see a lot of that in 406 00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:25,720 argumentation. But they're just blatant and 407 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,720 yeah, this is the effects and we're just going to do it. 408 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:36,720 I recently heard someone talking about AI on an NPR interview. 409 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:43,680 Is that AI is taken away. They're doing our art and 410 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,000 creativity so that I can do my job. 411 00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:51,280 We want AI to do our jobs so that we're free to be artistic 412 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,720 and creative. And it's having the opposite 413 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,600 effect. Do you know what what what do 414 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,520 they mean by taking? Was it the grip? 415 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,840 I don't quite get how an artist can say Is it that they can 416 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,480 churn out more work? What was there any what was I 417 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,960 try to work out how you know what they saw as the the awesome 418 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,600 moment that it's it's doing their work for them, because I 419 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,840 guess she's not I guess she's not doing any work. 420 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,200 If you're just turning a computer to here's a here's a 421 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,240 problem to here's here's here's make me some art. 422 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,000 Yeah, I don't know. I do. 423 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,400 So I do think this. So if Gareth, if you and I were 424 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,920 to get together and Co design a board game and we got this great 425 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,600 idea, I think we would, I think you and I would agree. 426 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,160 We'd probably use AI because neither one of us are artists to 427 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:44,040 to get to get the things flowing and then say we know Chris. 428 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:45,880 Chris is an artist. He's a graphic designer. 429 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,720 I think after we've got it ready for development, I would then go 430 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,880 to Chris and be like, here's our project, but scrap the art and 431 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,720 design it from scratch. But then you would know what's 432 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,080 in our head because we do not have the physical ability to 433 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,480 artistically express our ideas. So using AI to do that for us, 434 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:13,360 but then getting in a human artist to do the work, I think 435 00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:16,040 is maintaining. Go ahead. 436 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,040 No, yeah, sorry, I didn't interrupt. 437 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,960 I think, I think I wouldn't want to give Chris the artwork so 438 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,480 that I guess there's unconscious bias. 439 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,720 Sure. Because we, we've grown, we've, 440 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,720 we've maybe developed that game for 18 months, you know, and, 441 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,680 and even though we know it's AI, it might have become something 442 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,040 that we've had good feedback on. We've had good times. 443 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:42,360 It probably will not even give the artists that brief because I 444 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,520 don't know. But you know, because you become 445 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,920 attached to things even though you know it's it's wrong. 446 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,080 What do you think, Chris? What do you think? 447 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,880 If we put, if we were to put you in that hypothetical situation, 448 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,640 would you rather our AI art that we were working with or would 449 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:03,960 you rather not? I mean, you would definitely as 450 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,280 an artist need some sort of brief, even just the prompt you 451 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,720 gave for the. Director you used. 452 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:14,760 Right. Medieval game set in a castle. 453 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,720 How did you know? Catapults firing at your, you 454 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,080 know, Archer turrets. Whatever, right? 455 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,120 Yeah. You know you would need some 456 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,200 sort of direction. Of course. 457 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,200 Honestly, there may be times that I would want to see what 458 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,160 you've been looking at. Right. 459 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,080 You know, there's been so many times working on projects where 460 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,640 I've looked up inspiration and I've been like, that's it, 461 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,240 that's the direction I want to go. 462 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,920 That's the feel, the emotion. And I get into it and it just 463 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,640 doesn't work. And I've got to start off from 464 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,400 scratch and go a completely different direction. 465 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:51,880 That's what I ended up doing with the logo for our new 466 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,120 business, Caitlin. And I mocked some stuff up and I 467 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,280 said, this is what we're doing. I got into it. 468 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,800 It looked terrible and I didn't like it at all. 469 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:06,160 And so I kind of scrapped it and restarted, and where we ended 470 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:07,600 turned out great and I'm really proud of it. 471 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,160 You know, I think I take back, I take it back, Gareth, you're 472 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,440 absolutely right. When I published my first book, 473 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,720 I had a friend of mine designed the book cover and I had an 474 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,520 idea, a distinct idea in my head, and I described it to him. 475 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,480 He's like, OK, so he's like, let's try and put it together. 476 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,400 And it looked terrible when I when I gave him the freedom, 477 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,680 when I gave the artist the freedom. 478 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,040 It's a it's amazing. I love it. 479 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,680 It's gorgeous. I wouldn't do it again. 480 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,200 So if you're listening, Israel, I'm going to give you a plug. 481 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,000 Thank you. I really enjoyed that. 482 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,120 And I, I've learned, yeah, trust the artist, not not the AI and 483 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,080 I. Can relate to that. 484 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:56,320 I mean, as as a creative individual and the long time job 485 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,880 that I was in down in New Orleans, one of the guys that 486 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,920 was there that oversaw what I did didn't give me a lot of 487 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,320 freedom and was very critical of a lot of things. 488 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,000 And he moved on to another thing. 489 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:20,720 And after he left, I felt so free because now the people 490 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:27,280 supervising me didn't hold his tide of a leash and invited me 491 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:32,960 into the planning and the dreaming and the whole process. 492 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,160 And it just gave me so much more freedom. 493 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,480 And I feel like I put out some of my best work in there in 494 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:44,000 those years because I didn't feel as like squelched. 495 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,720 And and I don't think he did it intentionally, right? 496 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,080 That's the hard part in a job like that. 497 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,080 Sometimes non creative people don't understand how to lead 498 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,600 creative people. Well, that's a whole separate 499 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,520 conversation. No, you're right, we don't. 500 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,720 No, no, we don't you. Know we do not give. 501 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:04,800 Me data. Points don't, but it can still 502 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:09,280 apply because maybe some of these publishers haven't had 503 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,000 good experience with artists and they said why would I spend the 504 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,600 money dealing with this difficult person? 505 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,360 Not because they're difficult, because you didn't understand 506 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,240 them. So why would I spend all that 507 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:25,800 money and time when I can just get one person to type a prompt 508 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,920 in and not have to pay for anything? 509 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:34,240 Yeah, Yep. So a couple of weeks ago I, I 510 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,280 started a test which some people may or may have noticed on my 511 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,360 Instagram channel when I started thinking about this topic of AI 512 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:47,800 and I, I tested, I think about 7 posts now of just asking it to 513 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,840 help me write a game summary. So that's that thing. 514 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,080 Is it a tool? Is it a device? 515 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,680 How does it, what does it produce that I wouldn't produce 516 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:00,120 or couldn't reduce? And it's a few, a few edits with 517 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,840 the prompt and ask it to add things in. 518 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,000 It's the more in my style. Like I use emojis. 519 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,360 Show me the pros. Too many cons taking my own 520 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:14,920 review format as an input and no one no one's caught me out on it 521 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,800 where they haven't noticed over the last seven days. 522 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,960 Anyone would like to feedback to me it'd be it would be welcome 523 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,080 just see if anybody had noticed that it because it's it's not 524 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,360 quite in my style and the reason I tested it is because I hear 525 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,200 more and more about Instagram once in written form more than 526 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,440 just hey, it's a game. It's terrifying Mars. 527 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,480 I love it a few hashtags they're saying you have to put more 528 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,480 content and I haven't got the time in my life to write a lot 529 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,600 of scripts back to you know, outside factors. 530 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,640 It made a blind bit. No, no difference at all. 531 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:54,520 So my light count, my engagement is pretty much the same kind of 532 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,360 just it was an experiment on two fronts. 533 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:02,000 A can AI help me reduce content? And B, does it make a difference 534 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,680 to any kind of reach by writing more and mighty, but writing 535 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,400 more engaging content. But it hasn't. 536 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,000 So we'll be going back to to normal, no more production now 537 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:14,560 you. Need to go read through those 538 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:15,840 now. Yeah, yeah. 539 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,280 Go have a read your last, your last. 540 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,159 I think it's about 77 posts, about a week and a half. 541 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,159 But if you go back past that, you'll see that generally I 542 00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:28,480 write that much and now there's that much interesting, but but 543 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:33,920 writing tools and devices, to me, it was a tool to help me get 544 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,840 more content out and I did it. I always edited it and changed 545 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:38,080 words because it wasn't my language. 546 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,480 But could you, yeah, could you script it? 547 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,679 I did do some experiments that if I was in a YouTube world, I 548 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:50,400 asked it to write me some creative scripts for like if I 549 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,719 was filming, I'm going to do like a 10 minute run through. 550 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,040 I was quite impressed how it gave me some structure. 551 00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:57,480 Obviously isn't going to replace me doing the video work. 552 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,160 He's still got to be creative. But again, for somebody who's 553 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,960 not done YouTube or thought about, you know, doing a how to 554 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,560 play it, it was quite useful and given me a bit of a framework 555 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,000 that I would have to go and tackle. 556 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,160 So it's got it is a fine balance of to use it to to replace 557 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:20,280 creativity or to use it to help you do be more creative. 558 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,600 But that yeah, that's my little experiment over the last 10 days 559 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:29,280 or so. 7 posts, but no one, no one every the people are talking 560 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,760 about it on DMS and not messaging me or no one gives a 561 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,480 blind blind. Well, back to your terrifying 562 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,080 Mars 20,000 people. Was it? 563 00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:42,040 Just got on with it. So yeah, have a read and please 564 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,680 feedback on Instagram if you've got thoughts on that. 565 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,200 Yeah. Yeah, these are real concerns, 566 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,960 especially for us 'cause as we're reaching episode 100, we 567 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,520 are discussing moving to YouTube or video recording. 568 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:03,240 You know, we, we haven't landed on anything yet, although time's 569 00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:07,280 running short, but right. And then we've got this logo 570 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,520 we've got to rethink because the whole meeple and the copywriter 571 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,320 trademark with Carcassonne and all. 572 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,160 So it's like all of these things are relevant to our podcast. 573 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,720 And yet, what do we do and what do we land on? 574 00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:22,840 And how do we do it ethically and responsibly? 575 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,760 Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't change logo because of that. 576 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:28,040 We need. We need. 577 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:33,320 Just a refresh anyway. Yeah, Anywhere else. 578 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,800 Interesting too. I was just thinking while you 579 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:43,080 were talking about that, Gareth, I think art and board games in 580 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:47,760 the past eight years is one of the reasons the hobby has 581 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,960 exploded like it has. I was kind of on the beginning 582 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,320 wave of it just becoming this massive worldwide thing. 583 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:04,200 And I think a large part of it is some of the artwork, you 584 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,680 know, some of these games and these artists are just putting 585 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:13,280 out beautiful pieces that just enhance your game. 586 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,160 I think 15 years ago, nobody would have cared because you had 587 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,360 games like Puerto Rico, Castles of Burgundy, you know, all the 588 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,800 old dry Euro games that they didn't care about the art, and 589 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,840 it could look terrible and people still played them. 590 00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:32,440 But people Care now. And that's why right now it's as 591 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,120 big of a deal as it is. Yeah. 592 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,280 We had some friends over last week who who are relatively new 593 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,040 to Instagram and I guess I was like 12 years. 594 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,280 I think it counts 13 years this year. 595 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,360 And in that time, yeah, that that difference the the 596 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,960 popularity, as you say, Christie, difference in the 597 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,680 artwork and the impact that has on games. 598 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,480 As for the first things, I guess you visually see when you turn 599 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,240 on the Kickstarter pages is the art. 600 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,880 But yeah, don't yeah, it's Kickstarter, Jeff. 601 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:12,440 It's got a got a marker for again, anything that says it's 602 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,120 been generated by AI. There's no, they haven't gone 603 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,720 down an Ave. yet of highlighting an AI driven project. 604 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,880 I've noticed on Instagram there's now a little tag, if 605 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:26,040 your art is using AI, you're supposed to switch on. 606 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,160 Yeah, I sat there thinking, well, do I turn that, turn that 607 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,040 marker on for my written content? 608 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:33,800 And I, I read all the bits and bobs. 609 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,400 It was for art, the art itself, not for the written word. 610 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:38,440 Interesting. Which I thought was an 611 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:39,920 interesting one. It is interesting. 612 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,280 Yeah, I think to your point, Chris, how many, how many of 613 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,360 these older games have been refreshed? 614 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:47,960 All they did was refresh the art. 615 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,240 Yeah. 7 wonders got, you know, a refresh. 616 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:54,040 Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico. 617 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,880 Puerto Rico's about to It's I. Think it's a million. 618 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,240 It's a million already in about four, three or three or four 619 00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:01,160 days. In Castle's Burgundy a couple 620 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,200 years ago. I mean, let's talk. 621 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:08,280 About Catan, how many times it's been the artwork? 622 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,160 It looks so different, like mine is. 623 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,080 Mine is back from 99 and it's atrocious. 624 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,120 You try to put it together with something today and it's like. 625 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:18,600 You know, yeah, I, I know the box. 626 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,000 You mean. Well, I've kind of got about the 627 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,600 same era, yeah. The 3D version that came out 628 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,520 with a couple years ago, Yeah, right. 629 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:30,400 It was ridiculous. What about what about designers 630 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,080 about AI? So if I was about to prototype 631 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,120 and I've got I've got, I haven't got art, but if I want to do, I 632 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,120 don't know, balance, checking balance and mechanics, maybe to 633 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,120 letting them if there's a lot of algorithms going through. 634 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,800 Because some designers just use a spreadsheet, don't they to, to 635 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,200 work out the balance? Yeah. 636 00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:58,120 Would you, would you use, is AI OK to use those examples to try 637 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,480 and test different mechanics? I haven't heard of any designers 638 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,240 using AI, but I suspect it's happening. 639 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,560 I think so, but it. Hasn't it will happen, Yeah. 640 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,880 I think it goes back to our conversation about tools versus 641 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,520 devices, right? I think if it's a tool to 642 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,240 supplement the creativity and the the balancing and the 643 00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:23,840 process, then that's acceptable. But once it substitutes, I think 644 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,320 AI becomes dangerous when it substitutes human agency. 645 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:37,280 Oh, that was good, right? Yeah, I think that's when AI is 646 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,080 a threat and and take threat, however you mean that. 647 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,320 But it it, it becomes a cautionary tale. 648 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,280 Yeah. Well, I mean, as some of this 649 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,400 playtest said, I know you play such a ton of prototype games. 650 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,400 Could it help? Sure, sure. 651 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,840 But it's never going to replace someone sitting at your table 652 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,680 right? Playing the game and interacting 653 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:07,880 with it physically. Right. 654 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,840 AI can't replace that, just like in artwork, it can't replace the 655 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:18,680 passion, the life and experience and emotion that an artist can 656 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,280 put into a piece of art. Absolutely. 657 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,080 Yeah. No, I completely agree. 658 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:31,040 You can't. You can't not get human play 659 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,480 testers when you're in the process of developing a board 660 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,280 game. AI can't play test the game for 661 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,880 you and just be like it's balanced. 662 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,880 Go ahead and publish right like. Now the one benefit I could see 663 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,040 though is it's not bringing a bias, right? 664 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,720 That if I'm playing, testing a game with mechanics that I don't 665 00:41:55,720 --> 00:42:00,800 like, I'm already going into it expecting it to be bad, right? 666 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,160 So there may be a benefit there, but it's still not going to 667 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,880 replace the human interaction. You've still got the the bias 668 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,720 within the AI itself anyway. There's a. 669 00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:12,520 Risk. Exactly. 670 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,680 Everything it's learnt was from people who hate card drafting 671 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,320 games. I just thought another one thing 672 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:23,400 I was thinking about work and about AI localisation of rule 673 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,240 books. That's so that's always a 674 00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:28,360 sticking point. A lot of English produce board 675 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,160 games is that if you want it in another language, there's 676 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,000 somebody else has to another publisher picks you up, right. 677 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,000 But actually, you know, we've been, we've got other, we've got 678 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,080 offices of other countries and talking about how we do some 679 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,080 translation and that did come up. 680 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,400 Not that we've done it, but you know, does that speed up the 681 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,920 localisation because it it understands other languages? 682 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,360 But does it? But does it understand the 683 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:59,480 colloquialisms? From what I've seen, yes, not 684 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:04,520 perfect, but better than Google Translate, which is terrible at 685 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,440 picking up the, you know, nuances of the words. 686 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,760 But you know, just thinking about the, you know, that's 687 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,120 always only because I think I've seen two Inkixar updates in the 688 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,560 last 24 hours where localisation is the bit that's slowing them 689 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:21,200 down, right. But again, that replaces 690 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,200 translators and localisation specialists. 691 00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:27,880 I mean because it's. It's far reaching across our 692 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,280 industries, isn't it, Where where that you know that's a 693 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,080 tool to help translate, but you'd still you still were a 694 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,440 native speaker. You do to review it. 695 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,000 Absolutely. To get it to to make sure that 696 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,640 it's got it right. Because not only colloquialism, 697 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,640 but you have nuance, nuance and language nuance and emotions of 698 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,120 the communicator and the receiver of the communication. 699 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:49,760 And I think that's really important. 700 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,720 And I don't know that AI can fully, fully substitute that. 701 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,960 Yeah, no, agreed. And it goes back to the profit 702 00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:58,320 question, too. Yeah, yeah. 703 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:03,640 Are they using it to save money, to make more money? 704 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,720 Because let's be honest, Pat, the civilization, I would love 705 00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:12,000 to talk to them and ask them if you had paid artists to do all 706 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:17,640 the artwork, are you going to charge more money or are you 707 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,040 putting that game out there at the price right now? 708 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,920 Because I think it's $6570 game because that's the price of that 709 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:29,640 type of game, that size, that many components, regardless of 710 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,360 your art costs. And so the same thing could be 711 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,640 said for localization and. Yeah, no, great. 712 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,120 Yeah. Anything where you'll try and 713 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,760 take task out of the process. Yeah, I'm just looking at how 714 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,560 much it was. It's basically 70 quid, 70 lbs 715 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,840 over here. That's that's for what is mostly 716 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,640 cards. That's that's reasonably 717 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:53,080 expensive. Yeah, I don't think that's worth 718 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,440 that. If, if, if it is, if it is 719 00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,440 reducing costs, I'd say somebody's got their bottom 720 00:44:58,440 --> 00:44:59,560 line. They've got some nice bit of 721 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:00,600 gross profit at the back of that. 722 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:06,920 Yeah, that would be an interesting breakdown to see. 723 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,440 So are we, I think we're at that point. 724 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:15,640 The question is, Gareth, what does AI have to say about AI? 725 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:21,360 So I did do a test because I, you know, I asked it to give me 726 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:28,720 pros and cons of AI in artwork and it's prose was efficient art 727 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,520 creation to help generate concepts and backgrounds, 728 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,760 freeing up time for artists to focus on key pieces, which I 729 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,680 think kind of you mentioned helps do iterative design. 730 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,760 So it helps do variations and then cost efficiency. 731 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,200 But the pro stuff is pretty much where our conversations sat, 732 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,320 which is the loss of artistic integrity, job displacements, 733 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,360 and legal and ethical issues around copyright, originality 734 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,040 concerns. I did ask it for a titled 735 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,160 episode, but they were reason for the average. 736 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,160 So when we go with those, no, it's failed. 737 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,520 But again, you know, it was, it was a very weak prompt. 738 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,640 I asked it, I didn't ask anything more than a sentence, 739 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,360 right? Which I think is where, you 740 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,320 know, sometimes I'm trying to get a bit of knowledge and 741 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,840 Google it takes you place. It doesn't always tell you what 742 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:23,920 you're trying to understand here. 743 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,560 At least it gives you a bit of a framework, but it's what it is. 744 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,360 Then what it's back to that tools, devices point. 745 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,160 It's brilliant what you do with it and how you use it and 746 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:37,000 whether you're using it just for back to that frameworking and 747 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,880 maybe helping you do something different or whether you're 748 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,680 taking it as is and yeah, back to Chris's worth making a profit 749 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:49,120 or, you know, replacing, you know, somebody else's task or 750 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:50,360 job. Yeah. 751 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,200 Any other? Any any other final points, 752 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,120 Chris? Hey for me where the whole 753 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:01,960 conversation comes down to the point and it's not just in board 754 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,880 games. Life as a whole is technology. 755 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:13,360 AI should be a tool to help improve and enhance our lives. 756 00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,600 Yep. It shouldn't be something that 757 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:22,080 is used to replace jobs, to put people out of jobs, to save 758 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,280 money, to make more money, right? 759 00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,880 It should be helping us as individuals, as a society, as a 760 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:34,320 culture, as a world to grow and improve our lives. 761 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,560 It doesn't seem to be trending that way. 762 00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,720 It seems to be trending the opposite to where it's putting 763 00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:45,360 people out of jobs or helping companies cut corners and make 764 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,200 more money. And the question I've thought, 765 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,200 and I haven't come to any conclusions on is how can it be 766 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:57,480 used for the betterment of the world? 767 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:04,400 I don't know. Let's use it to cure cancer, not 768 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:05,880 to put artists out of jobs, right? 769 00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:12,000 Like right? Right curing. 770 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,760 Cancer. I don't know what happened, but 771 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,000 yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure they're using AI. 772 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:20,440 Sure. Have you got a have you got an 773 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,760 AI themed reading the back of the rule book to do? 774 00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:26,480 Or have you just chosen a random game this week? 775 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,680 No, as usual. I've I forgot to tell our 776 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,000 listeners last week, which was terrible because I actually 777 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,680 wrote it down in my script what the last two episodes were. 778 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,200 Yes, I was going to read by now, which I then failed. 779 00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,720 So. One was going to be This is no. 780 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,240 But this, this is the problem. This is what happens when Gareth 781 00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:48,080 and I go solo without each other because I messed up for two 782 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:51,040 weeks and then Gareth was supposed to tell everybody and 783 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,720 do a voice over and he yeah, we need each other. 784 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,080 We can't rely on AI, we have to rely. 785 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,440 So first of all, let's go back two weeks. 786 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:10,560 River Valley Glass Works was the game that I had read from 2 787 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:16,560 weeks ago or three weeks ago and two weeks ago when John was on I 788 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:21,000 read from the game Reef. That's it. 789 00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,520 And then you were going to read from Middle Ages but forgot to 790 00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,160 do the reading. Yeah, that's OK, People got the 791 00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:30,360 answer. But sure it was it was a good 792 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,760 description. Do you want to do the reading? 793 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:34,920 I've got? OK. 794 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,680 All right. So I've got one now, Chris. 795 00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,600 We'll let you guess on air and I'll tell you after we're done 796 00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:46,440 recording. See how confident my guess is 797 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:48,800 first? Yeah, they're they're pretty 798 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:53,400 easy for the most part I think. Anyway, you and your fellow 799 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,680 players take on the role of gardeners seeking to wield your 800 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:02,600 green thumb to grow a well balanced, mature garden before 801 00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:06,840 the growing season ends. Over the course of the game, you 802 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:11,480 will be planting seedlings and growing a variety of plants to 803 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:15,400 fill out your garden. In addition, if you are able to 804 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:19,440 meet the complex growing condition of your flowers, you 805 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:24,440 will earn prestige points for your horticultural achievements. 806 00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,200 The player who earns the most prestige at the end of the game 807 00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,720 will be crowned the Master Gardener. 808 00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:40,480 Was it flowers or was it vegetables? 809 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,920 I believe it was mentioned as flowers and seedlings flowers. 810 00:50:46,240 --> 00:50:48,480 Yeah. Flowers and seedlings. 811 00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:50,600 I thought of a game, but it's vegetables. 812 00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:53,760 Oh, well, there you go. Yeah. 813 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,720 I I don't know. OK, well TuneIn next week and 814 00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:04,520 you will get the answer. OK now you're just you stick. 815 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,280 So I'm staring at y'all just trying to think about it. 816 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:12,400 It's OK. I'm gonna have to go and think 817 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:13,920 about that one. Yep. 818 00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:16,160 But as if I know it. Do I know it? 819 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,400 You should. Oh, I think I I have a thought. 820 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:24,320 You should, yeah. OK. 821 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:25,040 All right. Right then. 822 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:27,840 Well, thanks, Chris for joining us this week. 823 00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,080 Thanks for having me. Really good conversation. 824 00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:33,000 I hope our listeners enjoyed it. Thanks, PJ. 825 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,080 Good to see you. Absolutely. 826 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,000 If we're going to do some video, we better work out because we've 827 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:39,120 got 3 episodes again. What? 828 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:41,640 We're going to do. I know, I know. 829 00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:43,960 I have, I have a coming plan, right. 830 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,960 OK, Thanks listening and we will speak to you all again soon. 831 00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:51,880 Thanks everyone for listening, please subscribe and as always, 832 00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,840 we'd love to hear your thoughts and ideas, so make sure to leave 833 00:51:55,840 --> 00:52:00,040 those in the comments and don't forget you can also chat with us 834 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,800 both on Instagram at Meeple the Meeple.