1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:06,120 Welcome to episode 136, where stories stick to the page like 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,960 S'mores, and every role leads to a deeper connection. 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,600 In this episode we're diving into the whimsical and wildly 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,240 original world of Marsh Hollow, a cooperative rolling right game 5 00:00:19,240 --> 00:00:22,640 bursting with charm, tension and teamwork. 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,560 We're joined today by designer Kervin from 4Y Games, whose 7 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,680 upcoming Kickstarter title flips the genre on its head with a 8 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:36,520 clever polyomino drawing mechanics and a heart warming 9 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:41,200 and slightly toasted narrative. Players take on the role of 10 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,520 marshmallow tribes. That's right, you heard that, 11 00:00:45,160 --> 00:00:49,680 trying to escape a shadowy cult of fire worshipping foes 12 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,600 determined to roast them over open flames. 13 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,840 Strategy meets survival. In this laugh out loud yet 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,640 deeply tactical journey through the hollow, we'll explore how 15 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,000 this game encourages collaboration, creativity, and 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,880 most of all, community, all while dodging skewers. 17 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,240 So grab your dice and pencils and most importantly, your sense 18 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,480 of adventure. This is 1 sweet story you won't 19 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,840 want to miss. It's cults, campfires and 20 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,120 confectionery chaos. Thanks for joining me. 21 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,400 How are you? I'm doing well, thanks for 22 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,160 having me. Hey, I am thrilled that we were 23 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,440 able to do this. I'm really excited to have you 24 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:32,320 on and getting to meet you at Gen. 25 00:01:32,320 --> 00:01:34,800 Con, which was you warm my heart. 26 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,600 Thank you so much for that. You bought me coffee. 27 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,280 Of course I had to. See, that's how I lull you in. 28 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,720 If you want to be on the show, I'll buy you coffee at a con. 29 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,760 Pistachio oat milk lattes get with me every time. 30 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:47,800 Was good, wasn't it? So good. 31 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,360 I had a matcha latte. I had it for the first time the 32 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,080 day before and that was just really incredible and I fell in 33 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,280 love with matcha. I didn't even know that was a 34 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,640 thing, but apparently it is. I'm Asian, it's a thing. 35 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:05,120 OK, well, there you go. I'm a white boy from southern 36 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:06,640 Louisiana. I don't know nothing about 37 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,080 matcha, but now I do. I've been educated. 38 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,400 So there we are. So you've got this game, Marsh 39 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,320 Hollow coming out. Tell us a little bit about the 40 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,320 game and then we'll get into how you came up with the story. 41 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,080 So in the game you play Marshall the Marshmallow, whose family 42 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,840 has been taken in by a pyromancy marshmallow cult. 43 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,800 You along with animal the forests, are going to go and try 44 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,480 to break them out armed with water balloons and water guns 45 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,640 and try to save them and prevent the swamp from being burnt down. 46 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,400 That's that's kind of like the general story of Marsh Hollow. 47 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,280 Yeah, explain a little bit about what I thought was most 48 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,600 interesting in the prototype. And the version I saw is nowhere 49 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,760 as near as close as where you are today based on the box you 50 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:53,560 showed me the polyomino like you're drawing the polyomino 51 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:58,720 shapes, but they don't touch. I could explain that a little 52 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:03,120 bit. So I love the, I love Roland 53 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,760 writes, I love polyominos. And generally speaking, in 54 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,480 Bergen design language, when it's a polyomno game, you have a 55 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,280 confined space and you're trying to place these pieces as 56 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,600 efficiently as possible within a given rule set to score points 57 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:22,000 or to like not lose points. And I love polyomnos, but there 58 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,200 are polyomnos games that don't follow that. 59 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,600 And one of my favorite ones is called Blockus. 60 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,240 Blockus is that it's a, it's a family game. 61 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,560 I, I played it a lot during the pandemic with the person I 62 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:33,960 designed this game with and her parents. 63 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,000 In Blockus, you have Poly, you have polyamno pieces and you're 64 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,840 trying to place them on a board. Your goal is to use them all and 65 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,720 you can only place them on the diagonals. 66 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,520 So you can't have any of them touch orthogonally like their 67 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,120 sides can't touch. And I always wondered why there 68 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,160 aren't any other polyamno games that use polyamnos that way. 69 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,520 And Blockus is very much an abstract game. 70 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,080 And I always thought to myself, if you had a game that was 71 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,800 similar to Blockus in that regard with a theme, I think it 72 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,440 would be amazing. And so that's kind of how the 73 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,800 mechanics of Marsh Hollows started. 74 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,640 Yeah, it was, it was difficult and even knowing block us and 75 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,880 you say it and all of a sudden I'm like, that makes sense. 76 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:17,959 I didn't, I didn't put that together when I was playing it 77 00:04:17,959 --> 00:04:20,680 at first, right? Like it was very difficult to 78 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,480 adjust to. OK, they, the pieces you're 79 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:24,720 drawing them, but they can't touch. 80 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,600 They've got to be diagonal. I struggled with that for a 81 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,440 little bit and then we picked it up and and ran away with it. 82 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,160 It was, it was pretty fantastic. How'd you come up with the story 83 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:40,320 of a marshmallow trying to escape these fiery cultists? 84 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,760 So my toe designer, she's actually my best friend from 85 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,360 high school. In her senior year of college, 86 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,680 she went to like a com design school where she had to take one 87 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,040 object and put it through a bunch of different mediums. 88 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,080 Her name's Kelly Reese, and she decided to use marshmallows. 89 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:01,200 So she did like she carved into wood block like a mouth where 90 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,440 every taste bud was a different marshmallow. 91 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,280 She had postcards. She had like this her her final 92 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,080 projects were crazy. And I was digging through my 93 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:14,120 room and I was And I found her postcard that she had made her 94 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,080 senior year. And I'm not kidding. 95 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,360 I saw the game of marshallow. There were these marshmallows 96 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:20,960 who were just kind of like doing their own thing. 97 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,480 They were like, they were like skewering each other. 98 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,520 They were like happy. They remind me a lot of the What 99 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,120 do they call the Despicable Me guys? 100 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,640 What are they called? The minions? 101 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,320 Minions. Yeah, so I have always imagined 102 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,160 Minions, but like marshmallows in this area. 103 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,280 And I literally saw the game. And so I went up to her and I 104 00:05:38,280 --> 00:05:41,040 was like, I have this idea for a game. 105 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:43,800 You already do marshmallows, you're a graphic designer. 106 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:48,920 Like let's see where this goes. And so that started a three-year 107 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,800 journey of trying to figure out for game design, trying to 108 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,400 figure out Stories, trying to find Tik Toks and trying to 109 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,760 figure out how that works. And before we knew it, well, I 110 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,120 mean, we're launching in a month, which is crazy. 111 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:07,080 That is, that's insane. How was that the how was the 112 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,360 process of learning game design right? 113 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,840 Because you had no experience with this beforehand, did you? 114 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,920 Kind of like I I did watch a game prior to this called Allow 115 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:17,960 me to Mansplain. That's one of the reasons why I 116 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:22,040 got on TikTok originally. I had an idea for a game and I 117 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,360 did a bunch of research. I, I listened to a bunch of 118 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,760 podcasts, I watched everything on YouTube and I said, I think I 119 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,440 could do this. Sure, why not? 120 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:31,960 And so I've always been really good at games. 121 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,360 My background is in theater. I've been really good at like 122 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,200 analyzing how things work. And so, and I played a ton of 123 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,320 games. And I think that's the one thing 124 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,880 that helped me a lot is that I love games. 125 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,360 I love playing different types of games and I'm able to look at 126 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,040 games A to enjoy it, but B, like figure out what about it makes 127 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,280 it work. My original idea for the game 128 00:06:52,280 --> 00:06:55,120 did not work, surprisingly. My original idea for the game 129 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,400 was there's a campfire and you're marshmallows and the 130 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,600 animals of the forest are coming to try to put out your fire. 131 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,320 And so they're trying to like defend from all these animals 132 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:08,640 coming from different directions. 133 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,160 But the one thing I wanted was I wanted it to be a rolling right. 134 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,480 Rolling right is my favorite genre and I wanted to figure a 135 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,480 way to make a game to convince people who don't love Roland 136 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:20,120 rights that Roland rights are worth their time. 137 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,960 People talk about how Roland rights are like accounting with 138 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,320 tweezers. Oh, it's, they're all the same. 139 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,360 And it's just like, it's, it's so low and it's all of these 140 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,960 things that aren't fun. And I don't agree with that. 141 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:37,320 And so we, and so I, that's when we came up with the idea 142 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,120 originally, I realized that's a lot for a Roland, right? 143 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,720 That's a lot to ask for, for cards and paper to be attacked 144 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,400 from different directions. And so, and then I was like, OK, 145 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:49,600 let's take it back, let's figure it out. 146 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,720 And then it's slowly morphed into what it is today. 147 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,160 That's cool. What was what about? 148 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,480 Did you reach out to other designers for input or getting 149 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:04,200 Kickstarter projects started, and if So, what was that 150 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,840 experience like? My journey into board game 151 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,240 design and board game publishing is very different than most 152 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,840 people, mostly because of TikTok. 153 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:17,160 So I had After I launched my first game, I, I made a video 154 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,400 and I and I talked about the different games that I had that 155 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,680 could be in the works. And the last one, that video was 156 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,880 Marsh Hollow and people absolutely loved the theme of 157 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:28,840 that game. And even though that wasn't one 158 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,480 that I wanted to make necessarily right now, if people 159 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,120 are asking for it like you kind of like if someone are 160 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,960 interested, that's easier to get play testers, that's easier to 161 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,159 get everything. And so I said sure, why not? 162 00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:42,960 And so that's when I asked Kelly to join me in the process. 163 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,360 The when I started with the design. 164 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:51,040 So she is very much a gateway gamer, like below gateway gamer. 165 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,000 She's not really into like really crunchy board games. 166 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,360 She's not really into like tons of pieces. 167 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,480 And but she her background is in design and she's very big on 168 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:03,120 making sure that like her biggest complaint about Roland 169 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,440 rights is she's fighting with the design of the Roland right 170 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,200 to where she can't actually play the game. 171 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,000 Oh. I can see that. 172 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,040 Because size is a priority where your eye goes and like there's 173 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,680 different things that she takes inspiration because of her like 174 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,520 of her profession that it's hard for her to like play a game. 175 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,760 And so to have her so, so to make a game that was intuitive 176 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,360 to her, that followed a lot of the design rules because 177 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,560 apparently we're game designers and artists break them a lot to 178 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:35,040 make that was we had to learn how to speak to each other. 179 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,880 We had to learn to be like, well, what do you mean move? 180 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,040 That was an hour conversation. OK, when? 181 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,160 It comes to roll like like like when you say move, do you mean 182 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,160 like up, down, left, right? Do you mean do you move that 183 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,160 like it was, it was one of the wireless conversations we had. 184 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:54,080 But so once we finally got some semblance of something to play 185 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,480 test, I I play tested a lot. I one of the best parts about 186 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,760 having a rolling right is that it plays so low. 187 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,800 So I played tested a bunch way before I played test with people 188 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,840 and gencon 3. I guess now the three gencons 189 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:13,640 ago I asked my like 5 of my first ever followers on TikTok 190 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,880 to join me the bipoc lounge and play this game and it was the 191 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:18,560 first time I met all of them in person. 192 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,560 It was probably the worst explanation of a game I've ever 193 00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:25,560 done in my life because Gen. Con is overwhelming. 194 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,120 I got to meet these people who've seen every video I've 195 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,360 ever made and they played it like I didn't mention it as a 196 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,040 cooperative game until halfway through. 197 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,200 Like they played the game. And so their their feedback was 198 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:40,400 something I took to heart because one of the biggest 199 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:42,800 complaints is probably not the right word for it. 200 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,080 But when you have play testers, it's people being honest with 201 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,240 you about your game. And my background's in theater, 202 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,120 I'm kind of known for being very blunt. 203 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,880 And so like being like, please tell me about your game. 204 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,240 And I remember that feedback is what changed the direction of 205 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,680 where Marsh Hollow went down to one of them said Kervin. 206 00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:03,800 I have a hard time rotating shapes in my brain. 207 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,800 I'm not spatially like spatial awareness is something I'm not 208 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:08,920 very good at. Can we these should be plastic 209 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,560 cards. And I said, gosh Dang it, that's 210 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:15,280 such a good idea. And then from that, and then 211 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,560 from that play test, like I thought the game was fun. 212 00:11:17,560 --> 00:11:20,000 I thought it was great. And they said it wasn't great. 213 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,640 They said it, they, they said it played, but they actually took 214 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,840 the time to explain to me why things didn't work for them, 215 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,400 what was confusing, what I could have done better. 216 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,120 They gave me ideas of where to go. 217 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:36,000 And so the majority of my play testers are board game content 218 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,200 creators, right? I probably played the game with 219 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,720 90% of board game TikTok and they have had significant input 220 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:45,960 to my game. Like I every time I look at the 221 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,360 game and I see like, oh, we made this change because of this 222 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:49,840 person. We made this change because of 223 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,800 this person. And board game TikTok, they love 224 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,880 all different types of games. And I realized the only reason 225 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,720 why some people didn't like it was because they were 226 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,360 overwhelmed with the choices, couldn't spatially rotate 227 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,800 shapes, and so they would just choose the easier of the two 228 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,520 pieces and just place it wherever because they felt like 229 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,960 they were holding people back. Well, that's a that's a good 230 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:13,960 point. I hadn't considered that. 231 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:19,200 So let me ask you, did you have any non board game tik tokers 232 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,360 that were play testing? Because there's an entire 233 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,000 because there's a culture of just play testers, and that's 234 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,040 what they do. Absolutely I would. 235 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,120 I would make videos and people would be like, I'd love to play 236 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:30,120 it. And I said, well, if you have an 237 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,520 e-mail, let's go. And so I would play with them 238 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,280 remotely. I would do blind test, play 239 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,480 tests on TikTok. I, I talk a lot about board 240 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,120 games and board game adjacent things. 241 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:40,320 And I, I have a whole series called things I do. 242 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,320 So my boyfriend will play board games with me because he loves 243 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,360 Monopoly and he doesn't actually like to play board games. 244 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,160 But I had someone, I noticed someone was watching my like a 245 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,360 couple of videos and she would watch a couple of videos every 246 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,000 10/15/20 minutes over the course of a day. 247 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,600 It was like 200 videos that day and I was like, that's really 248 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,160 weird 'cause there's, it's pretty common for people when 249 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,080 they first find your channel to just like mass spam like videos. 250 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,720 And but she watched enough of them enough time to make me 251 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,160 realize that she was actually watching my videos. 252 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,440 And that night as I was going to bed, I get this massive DM 253 00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:18,160 saying I'm sorry if this is creepy, I'm not trying to be 254 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,280 creepy. But something about you I 255 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,520 connected with. I watched enough of your content 256 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,080 to know that I like you and I want to support you. 257 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,200 I would love to play this game with my kid. 258 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,200 I know it's not made for children, but I, I kind of want 259 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,560 to see how it plays with children with like my son and I 260 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:34,280 said absolutely. So we played it with her son 261 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,000 remotely. I had never met her prior. 262 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,840 And we, we changed a few things because he's 6, his son was 6. 263 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,440 So they were able to place things orthogonally and they 264 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,240 started with a gun. But he understood the rules 265 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:48,840 better than she was and she was in it. 266 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,840 She's not a gamer. Her husband runs the local board 267 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,280 gaming group in her city and she's not a board gamer, but she 268 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,680 was so excited to play this game because of the theme and her son 269 00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:03,040 loved it too. And so like, I've learned that 270 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,280 when I would play the game with members of people who don't play 271 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,280 a lot of board games or I play tests with people who aren't 272 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:13,560 members of board game TikTok, how they how they explain the 273 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:18,000 game back to me affected my teacher of the games because 274 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,080 they look at things differently and they like different things 275 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,440 appeal to them. And I've learned that every time 276 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,840 I play it with someone who doesn't necessarily play rolling 277 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,040 rights or board games, might might teach like forever future 278 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:31,720 changes a little bit. Interesting. 279 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,040 So I'm going to ask a question that I think I already know the 280 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,160 answer to, but I like to ask it of designers. 281 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:44,560 How easy was it for you to be vulnerable and open yourself up 282 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,440 to that, to play testers in all of that criticism? 283 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,080 I'm a theater kid like there's nothing these people could tell 284 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,080 me that my teachers didn't say meaner. 285 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,560 So a it's that BI talk about diversity on TikTok. 286 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,720 I share my personal experiences on a like platform where people 287 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,720 are mean. People sometimes roll. 288 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:08,200 And it's one of those things where I always view it as, as 289 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,240 long as I can tell that you're trying to be helpful and it's 290 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,680 coming from a place that isn't spiteful or mean. 291 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,640 Like you can hate my game, that's perfectly fine. 292 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,560 But I need you to tell me why you hate the game. 293 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:20,560 I need you. I will sit down with you like, I 294 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:21,640 didn't like this. Well, what didn't you 295 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,160 understand? And I will sit there and like, 296 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,800 spend time to be like, hey, if normally it's like one or two 297 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,960 concepts that if you would have gotten your game experience 298 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:31,200 would have been completely different. 299 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,840 And so I, I personally don't have problems with people not 300 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,000 liking things I create. I have more of a problem if you 301 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,360 don't like me. That is a fairpoint. 302 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,120 That is fair. Yeah, I feel that too. 303 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,000 I want you to like me. Exactly. 304 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,600 It's like, I think I'm great. Well, you are great and I think 305 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:55,320 that your followers in your following Pip pans out right. 306 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,040 It shows that you're pretty terrific. 307 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,760 So and now you've got this game coming out. 308 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,240 That's just like I said, it's going to flip the genre on its 309 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:08,880 tail because this is a unique take on that polyomino mechanic 310 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,120 and it's in a rolling right format, which is pretty 311 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,280 spectacular. I didn't like, I didn't intend 312 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,880 to go out and make this game that like was significantly 313 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,440 different than what's out there. That's not something that like I 314 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,360 was trying to do. I definitely design theme first. 315 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:25,960 There are people who design mechanics first. 316 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,160 People's on theme first. I very much care about themes 317 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,680 and I talk a lot about how on my channel, how a lot of the games 318 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,840 don't interest me. Like there's a lot of themes I 319 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:42,240 don't care for and that's fine. But I remember last year I, I, I 320 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,960 was really big in Lor Kana, which is the trading card game 321 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,200 by Robbins Burger, the Disney 1. And I love Disney. 322 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,280 And so I didn't buy board games last year because TCGS are 323 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,360 expensive. And I wanted, and there are 324 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,960 people in the industry who say like, oh, I'd never play games 325 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,000 with themes I don't love. And I said, I don't know what 326 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,319 that's like. That's not something, that's not 327 00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:09,839 like a privilege that I have. And so I decided to play just 328 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:14,880 Larkana and it changed the, the type of games I was like willing 329 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,960 to play. Like, I didn't realize it's OK 330 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,839 to be like, you know what? I, I'm not sure I like the theme 331 00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:21,720 of the game. Maybe I'll pass because I always 332 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,720 think that there's always something about a game you can 333 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,400 love. There's whether it's like the 334 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,840 people you're playing with or there's like a mechanic that's 335 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,080 like really interesting. I, I think there's something, 336 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,280 there's always something you can learn from a game, even it's not 337 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,040 from a theme you love. But I have actively prioritized 338 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:42,520 finding games with like different themes because of that 339 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,680 one decision I made. And then going into Marsh 340 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,640 Hollow, I have converted people into lovers of rolling rights, 341 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,400 which is crazy, which is like not something that, like, that's 342 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,880 not something that I was actively trying to do. 343 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,560 I was just like, I wanna convince people that this genre 344 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,360 is worth it. And there are really good 345 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:02,400 rolling rights that like, even if you don't think you might 346 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:03,640 like it, you might actually could. 347 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,880 And they do. And I get to play rolling rights 348 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:08,360 with them. I get to play with them online. 349 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:12,080 And it's, it's, it's something that I didn't expect to happen. 350 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,200 And I'm very happy and grateful that I was able to get to that. 351 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,920 And you should I I find I got to say, I'm a little surprised by 352 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,200 the reaction. I didn't realize there were that 353 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,080 many people that just did not like rolling rights because 354 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,320 they're, they're just so accessible, you know, they don't 355 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,440 require a massive table presence. 356 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,200 They're easier to travel with. Yeah. 357 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,440 And how many rolling right versions of larger board games 358 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,320 have been published in the last two years? 359 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,040 Tons, Yeah. Like they always say, it always 360 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,520 feels like accounting with tweezers. 361 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,640 And I'm like, I can see that. Like there's some of them 362 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,880 absolutely are just like, just like tick mark, tick mark, tick 363 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,280 marks. But just like every other genre, 364 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,920 there's different things within it that are actually fun. 365 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,880 And to write off a whole genre because of what you think it is, 366 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,680 is something that, like I, I wanted to show people. 367 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,040 Yes, and I think you, I think you achieved that. 368 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,640 The theme is interesting. The theme didn't sing to me at 369 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,840 when I when I got the prototype from you, I was like, OK, being 370 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,120 honest, I was like what? OK, but I'm going to. 371 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,760 But I also love play testing for the sake of play testing. 372 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:27,360 And I also recognize that as a fellow creative, the importance 373 00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:28,960 of getting constructive feedback. 374 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:33,200 So I want to be helpful. So my wife and I sat down and 375 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,880 played and figured it out and I was like, OK, the mechanics and 376 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,960 the gameplay made it an interesting experience. 377 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,960 And then after playing it two or three more times, it was like, 378 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,400 this is adorable it. Is adorable. 379 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,440 It so is and you know, there's so many cute games out there, 380 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:58,640 but this is just, this is a new way of polyominal mechanics and 381 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:03,200 a new way of rolling right? And just it took my breath away, 382 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,240 if I'm being honest. So originally the the style was 383 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,520 supposed to be like kawaii, super cute. 384 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,880 And then and then we got into there's a lot of characters in 385 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,040 the game. I think there's like 11-12 like 386 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,920 individual animals, there's a bunch of little marshmallows. 387 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,000 And when we were trying to figure out like in the kawaii 388 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,240 style, they're all the same height and part of the joy of 389 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,600 having a bunch of different animals and in relation to 390 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,920 marshmallows, saving other marshmallows is like the height 391 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,800 differences, the play on like the different like movements and 392 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,760 positions you can have. And so we were looking for 393 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:41,480 different styles and Kelly came up with rubber hose, which is 394 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,320 what Cuphead is and what Goofy, who's my favorite Disney 395 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,880 character, was originally drawn in So. 396 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,760 Right. And so that style is very much 397 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,640 like that. And there aren't a lot of games 398 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,800 that utilize that. I remember when I, I couldn't, 399 00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:59,920 when I, when I create a game as a publisher and a content 400 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:03,000 creator, I think about the types of videos I would want to make. 401 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,120 I think about my friends who are going to make content and like 402 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,320 how their videos work. And if I want to make sure my 403 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,880 game is highlighted well, I need to make sure that I have enough 404 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,880 art, that I have nothing to unbox, that I have enough 405 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,360 interesting things to show. And I, I remember thinking that 406 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,640 if this was kawaii and it's just super cute, it would just be 407 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,000 sarcastic coming from me. Like I'm a happy person, but I 408 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,600 want to be like, look how cute this is, Look how cute this is. 409 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,760 I would, it would be so like not real for me. 410 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,960 And like, I think things are cute and I think things can be 411 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,680 like darker and cute. And I think that cozy isn't 412 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,440 necessarily the same for everybody. 413 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,640 And you can do things that are cozy, that aren't just like cute 414 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,800 but and have different people connect to your game because my 415 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:48,280 game is a different type of game. 416 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,840 And if I want to attract people who like different types of 417 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,000 games, I'm gonna go a little dark. 418 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,480 I'm gonna make things like cute, like. 419 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,440 And there's some characters like the Otter, freaking adorable. 420 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,760 It's when I the Otter and the alligator are my favorite 421 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:05,240 characters in the game and to have them just be like and and 422 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,640 be able to show things and like. I can't wait to have all the 423 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:09,720 merge. That's another thing is that we 424 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:10,080 spent. A. 425 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,200 Few and a half years trying to figure out the style and that 426 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,320 the reason why it's taken so long was because we wanted to 427 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,320 make sure the art was right and the characters were correct. 428 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,040 And like we even did a comic for to explain the lore of the game 429 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,120 we wanted. We wanted to show something that 430 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,040 does isn't really out there, especially for own rights to be 431 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,960 like this is, this is what can be. 432 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,120 And a lot of people think, I thought I was crazy. 433 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:39,760 A lot of people in the industry are, we're confused and they're 434 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:40,880 like, you could have done this sooner. 435 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,000 You could have just put tariffs, you could have done all of this. 436 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,000 But I always tell them, but if it makes sense for me, that's 437 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,800 all that really matters, right? And my audience has been 438 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,680 following me the entire 2 1/2 years. 439 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:59,040 And I, I can honestly say as like an indie board game 440 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,920 publisher, I wasn't hurting for play testers. 441 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,480 And that's one of the coolest things to know is that they're 442 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,720 people who want to support me. They want to support the game. 443 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,960 And, and you're more likely to get better play testers to give 444 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,280 you better ideas for your game. And it slowly evolved and I'm so 445 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,680 happy with where it is. That's incredible because how 446 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,000 many designers I know they complain about, not complain, 447 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,680 that's not the right word, but they they share their 448 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,760 frustrations with how difficult it is to find a diverse group. 449 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,920 And I don't mean, you know, just a wide number of different play 450 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,360 testers from around wherever and struggle with that. 451 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:41,080 So it's great that you were able to instantly have a pool of play 452 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:45,000 testers to get that feedback. And, and not even that, just 453 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,120 having like a roller, right? I mean, we got to play remotely 454 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,400 and so I didn't have to be in person to, to show we were able 455 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,280 to figure that out. And it it, it was incredibly 456 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,080 helpful and probably it would have taken me a lot longer if we 457 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:00,520 had decided to not do a rolling right. 458 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:05,480 Do you have any regrets? Or maybe not regrets, but things 459 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,280 you would do differently if you were to do it over again, like. 460 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,920 With the like designing the game or like the Kickstarter or just 461 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,960 like everything. Everything. 462 00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:15,080 And that's not meant to be a trick question. 463 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:20,640 There's no right or wrong. I will say, I will say the So 464 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,920 every year I do 10 things that scare me as someone who's like 465 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,760 an anxious person, I think it's important to because you don't 466 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,080 always have control over when you're pushed outside of your 467 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,000 comfort zone. And I think it's important to be 468 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,560 the person sometimes to push you out of your comfort zone. 469 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:38,880 I think it's one of the ways we grow. 470 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,040 I think the older we get, the more likely we're not to do it. 471 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,760 And the older I've gotten, the harder it's gotten, if I'm 472 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:48,000 perfectly honest. And so in the BIPOC lounge, the 473 00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:50,840 it's just run by the Rose Kotlin foundation at Gen. 474 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,560 Con. They also do the women gaming 475 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,640 and origins. The the big a dinner at PAX 476 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,960 unplugged. They really focus on bringing 477 00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:02,360 more people into the hobby and more people in the industry. 478 00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:04,920 If you're like education and one of the things you can do is you 479 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,200 can sign up for a time slot for with a mentor. 480 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,360 Previously, every hour of every day was planned and so I 481 00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:12,920 couldn't even grab lunch with somebody. 482 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,560 Mostly I skipped lunch and people just brought me lunch and 483 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,360 I ate during a play test. And this Gen. 484 00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:24,200 Con I decided I was going to sign up for a mentor and so I 485 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,720 was reading through and I ended up wanting to meet with the 486 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:29,880 senior marketing manager of Renegade. 487 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:32,600 His thing talked about like Kickstarters, he talked about 488 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,000 working with influencers and I met with him and this is what I 489 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,480 told him, which is made me very anxious because of my experience 490 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,080 in this in the space. I said I am well aware of how 491 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,400 indie publishers create and kickstart a game. 492 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,040 They go to conventions, they play, test it with strangers, 493 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,760 they build listservs, they go Kickstarter. 494 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,200 They want like launching conventions, they have booths. 495 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:05,520 And I didn't do any of that. I said I did all of my research 496 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,400 and realized I don't think that works for me. 497 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,600 And so on a whim, I joined TikTok. 498 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,240 I was able to create a following, some sorts of a 499 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,600 following. I was able to get play testers. 500 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,400 I was able so and that affected my marketing strategy, which is 501 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,680 basically going to be a lot of for getting content across all 502 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,720 platforms. And I said, as someone who 503 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:31,800 didn't do what most people did, as someone who's not seen my 504 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,720 game, can you look at my game and tell me what you would 505 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:40,480 highlight? And I, and I fully expected, I 506 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,760 fully expected him to just be like, well, why didn't you do 507 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,120 the listserv? Why you like, like what you hear 508 00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:47,520 over and over and over again? I'm like, sure, it doesn't, I 509 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,000 don't have the, it doesn't work for me. 510 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,160 And like if I have resources that I think are better, like 511 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,320 I'm not running meta ads and it's always really big, like all 512 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:56,600 of the things like I'm not doing. 513 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,120 I expected him to just like be super judgy and say, well, you 514 00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:02,480 should just do these things because people say the same a 515 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,480 things over and over again. And then he looked at me and he 516 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,600 smiled and he said, let's, let's go through it together. 517 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,520 So he pulled. He pulled up one of their pages 518 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,000 that they had done for our previous Kickstarter. 519 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,200 He explains, like the rationale of how things are laid out. 520 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,880 He looked through, he looked through like the instruction 521 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,000 manual. He looked through the things he 522 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,200 said. You should highlight this here. 523 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:23,680 You should do this, you should do this. 524 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,400 And I didn't. I know why I was originally 525 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:33,680 scared to tell a person in the industry who's marketing manager 526 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,080 for Renegade, It's a pretty big deal to be like, I know what 527 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,280 you're supposed to do. I didn't do it, I think, and I 528 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,800 haven't come across as like, this is what made the most sense 529 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,320 for me. And not like I know what's 530 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,880 better or like there's a lot of things that people could have 531 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,480 read into that. And he was so welcoming and he 532 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,280 was so nice. And so like, because I went so 533 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,440 far left with how I'm going to launch this campaign, I regret 534 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:03,640 not not even at trying to do like listservs or like like like 535 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,640 it's it's one thing to say that doesn't make sense for me, but 536 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,480 also something to be like, I didn't try it. 537 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:10,400 Right. Sure. 538 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,000 OK. So, so like do I have a like a 539 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,000 listserv of people to e-mail? No, I have like their like 540 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,760 number and I can text them when I need things. 541 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,400 I have. And again, when the majority of 542 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,320 your community is content creators, it's going to look 543 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,920 different than if you never make content. 544 00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:32,040 And so like, I don't regret not doing that. 545 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,240 But also like there's only so much time in the day. 546 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,080 And when you're one of two people trying to figure out this 547 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,800 whole how to do a Kickstarter, how to make a game, how to like 548 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,200 while having a full time job, while having, you know, like 549 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,520 being in a long distance relationship, it's a lot to try 550 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,640 to like maintain and handle. And so like, I wouldn't say I 551 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,880 regret not doing that, but like, I probably should have just 552 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,360 sucked it up. And then like, it's fine. 553 00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,040 I can attempt to do a list serve. 554 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,720 And it's not even like I didn't do my research on that because 555 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,840 when I did all my research, I knew like there's Mailer light, 556 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,280 there's mail trip, like I they're all the things like 557 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,360 they're in notes, in notebooks in a corner of my desk that like 558 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,080 I'm sure I could open. I'm not one to do things just 559 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,240 because people do it. And if it doesn't make sense, 560 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,400 why, why am I doing it? And if I'm like. 561 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,520 It's a great question. Like running meta ads. 562 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,120 Why does one run meta ads? Because they're trying to put 563 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,040 your game in front of people who might be interested. 564 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,360 Well, if I have 30 to 60 content creators across platforms show 565 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,920 off a really beautiful game, isn't that similar? 566 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,320 I'm not saying it's the same and I'm not saying necessarily like 567 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,200 the R, the ROI is gonna be the same, but it's gonna be put in 568 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:51,120 front of a lot of people's eyes. And so and so that I found that 569 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,200 I have alternatives to what people are doing. 570 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,480 And even though it may not be exactly the same, it was enough 571 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,120 for me and it made sense for how I wanted to spend my time. 572 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,960 Because also, how many publishers or like any 573 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,000 publishers do you know, who actually are making can make 574 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,080 their own content for their game other than this is my game? 575 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,760 Like becoming a content creator absolutely drastically 576 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,400 influenced how I designed the game, what the art looks like 577 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,520 and how it plays. Wow, wow. 578 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,440 So you in an you in essence are exemplifying everything I've 579 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,240 been saying is that on this podcast, is that your personal 580 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:33,000 experience informed how you viewed this project and how it 581 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,800 and how you approached it and how you tackled it and developed 582 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,280 your own strategy. I love that. 583 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,760 That's that's incredible being a content creator. 584 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,320 Yeah, that. I love how you said that. 585 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,600 I want to. I was thinking about, I was 586 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,000 thinking about our conversation at Gen. 587 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,840 Con, and you were talking about the environment of content 588 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,920 creators in terms of game design. 589 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,240 Oh, man, I wish I could remember what you said because I wanted 590 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,400 to give you an opportunity to say it again because it's just 591 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,880 so cool and it was tied directly to everything we're talking 592 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,560 about right now. Gosh, shame on me forgetting 593 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,080 what you said to trigger that. I'm a terrible interviewer. 594 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:16,840 You you didn't have a notepad out? 595 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,280 I didn't. I didn't because I'm so in the 596 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:21,080 moment. Yeah. 597 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,880 So that's on me. Shame on me. 598 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,400 Well, but I love how content creators influenced your 599 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,720 approach. Like, that's just that's unique. 600 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:38,440 And is that why you decided to go publish it yourself rather 601 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,480 than approach a big publisher and let them publish Marshallow? 602 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,680 I think I'll, I'll get to, to that in a second. 603 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,280 I feel like what separates me from a lot of content creators 604 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,920 and just like people in the industry is just intention, 605 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:53,880 right? Like if diversity is part of 606 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,040 your platform, you have to be intentional. 607 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,920 And there and there are people who say things like, it must be 608 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:03,400 nice to be able to hit record, just talk and then because you 609 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,800 had a thought and then post it. But that's not how I make 610 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,800 content. There are people who have said 611 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,320 Kervin makes content in his car where he just talks. 612 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,960 If he can do it, anyone can do it, which like it's true, but I 613 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,600 actually think about it. I actually like there's a reason 614 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,080 and a purpose and like branding is super important. 615 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,360 And so the intentionality at into which I talk about 616 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,760 diversity into which I do my brand and I make my tik Toks is 617 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,120 what I brought to the my game and my board game design and my 618 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,000 publishing of it. And so like there's a reason for 619 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,960 everything. And a lot of people, their 620 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:40,680 process is just different. And so getting to that point was 621 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,480 a lot of band power as a lot of bandwidth and why it's taken as 622 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,280 long as as I have. Could you rephrase your question 623 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:48,280 again? I lost it. 624 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,600 Oh, why? Why didn't pitch back? 625 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,280 Why didn't pitch Marshallow? So. 626 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,720 In my initial research of self publish a game versus pitching 627 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,680 games to publishers, you lose all control. 628 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,400 So like I had people tell me, Kervin, I am so glad you are 629 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,000 self-publishing this yourself because no publisher would 630 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,240 publish this marshmallow cultists. 631 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,920 People are like publishers don't even do necessarily do witches 632 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,720 unless they're like tea wishes, which is coming out, which I'm 633 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,360 sent for like a you lose control of which like I don't want to 634 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:26,360 spend all I I've it would have been fine if I pitched it at a 635 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,920 certain point, but there's a point where you either pitch it 636 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,000 or need to self publish it. And for me, part of my platform 637 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,520 is I wanting to do things different. 638 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,600 Part of my platform is like, you don't have to do things just 639 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,640 because that's how people are like people tell you you have to 640 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,960 do it. And so when I made the decision 641 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,960 that I was going to self publish this, it's because I wanted to 642 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,280 be able to show people what I can do and to show people that 643 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:50,800 what I can design, what I can publish. 644 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,160 And I wanted because I think the game is amazing and I knew it 645 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,160 was going to, I knew it was going to be really, really good 646 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:01,800 and part and ultimately I would love to be someone who talks 647 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:06,120 about diversity in the space and to be a a personality or to be 648 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,280 someone who does that, you need to get a certain amount of 649 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,080 success either as a content creator or as a publisher for 650 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,600 people to like know who you are right And to and to be like to 651 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,199 have a following on TikTok is not enough because people don't 652 00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:23,400 even know what TikTok is. And so like, since I'm a 653 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,600 designer and I'm a publisher, having a successful game and 654 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,560 getting my name out there and like networking and getting 655 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,639 people to know me and understand what I'm doing. 656 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,440 That's something that ultimately is bringing me to like what I 657 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,080 want to do because I don't know if I want to publish games 658 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,280 forever. Like I always said, I don't 659 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,040 wanna. I don't like After Marshallow, 660 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:44,440 I'm there. I'll probably take a break from 661 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,239 content creation. I'll probably take a break from 662 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,360 and just figure out, like, if this is what I enjoy or if I've 663 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,480 convinced myself I enjoy it. I'm pretty sure I enjoy it. 664 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,400 Yeah, but when when you've posted at least one video a day, 665 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,840 every day for four years, do you really enjoy it? 666 00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,560 I don't know. We'll find out. 667 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,000 Maybe so. It's so. 668 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,040 I like how so control's important. 669 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,720 I get that as a content creator, you want to create it. 670 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:10,440 You create something that's yours. 671 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:15,680 You take your or you took. I guess you take because took is 672 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:22,000 OK semantics with your intentionality in the content 673 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,600 you create. You brought that to the design 674 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,040 of your game and the way that you play, you approached play 675 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,440 testing the way you approached your marketing and hopefully a 676 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,480 way that you approach the project. 677 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:40,320 And so I find that fascinating, the intentionality and forming 678 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,240 the approach to the design because I've had conversations 679 00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:47,720 with designers on this show with different points of view as to 680 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:55,560 to pitch or to publish, right. That is the question and you 681 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,480 seem to have an answer for it for you. 682 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,880 I don't No go ahead. I don't suggest the board game 683 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,560 designer, publisher, content creator out like it's not like 684 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,680 it's not something that I think everyone can do. 685 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,400 It's not something everyone can do, sure, because they require 686 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,720 very different skill sets. Like Borgame design is different 687 00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:16,400 than Borgame publishing. Both of those are different than 688 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,880 content creation. And if I'm honest, I stumbled 689 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:23,120 into content creation like it was something that I, I did like 690 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,320 I remember one of my super fans who has become, she's not one of 691 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,480 my best friends in the industry. She would a year after we met, 692 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,360 she said, Gervin, your first like 20 videos, it looked like 693 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,440 you didn't want to be there. And I said, Brad, I didn't want 694 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,520 to be there. But she's like, but your message 695 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,600 was good. I'm like, yeah, but like, like, 696 00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:45,040 like back then, TikTok was all 7 second dance videos. 697 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,960 Back then, there were 14 people on board game TikTok and they 698 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,560 were doing exclusively how to play it. 699 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,040 No one was talking about board games in their car. 700 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,440 TikTok didn't even want long form content. 701 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:01,480 But like, in my bones, I felt that TikTok will eventually want 702 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,440 one minute videos and I want and, and outside of board games, 703 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,840 there were a lot of niches where people just talk. 704 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,400 And so I wanted to learn a style, a cadence that was unique 705 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,280 to me that to where I can tell a story. 706 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,360 And I remember I was talking to Nicholas Sparkman at Sparkmanic 707 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,520 and he said, Kervin, you, you, you don't move, you stare at the 708 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:28,040 camera and your message is, is what people connect to. 709 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:29,480 And that's what's the most important thing. 710 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,000 And I don't know if that was on purpose or not. 711 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,600 I'm like, it was on purpose. But he said it was really great. 712 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:39,480 And now TikTok wants you to do one minute content and like over 713 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,800 a minute content. And I'm lucky enough to be it 714 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,640 took me 3 years to get monetized on TikTok and TikTok actually 715 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,840 paid for all of my prototypes. Nice. 716 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,800 I didn't know that. Yeah, I don't think we talked 717 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,240 about that when we when we met. So that's that's interesting. 718 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,480 Yeah. That that's a whole, that whole 719 00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,440 monetization is a very new thing for me, obviously having only 720 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:01,920 been on YouTube for less than a year. 721 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,320 And I know that I know it is a thing, but I'll cross that 722 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:09,280 bridge when I get to it. Me too, me too. 723 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,920 You know, it's interesting though, YouTube's short content, 724 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,800 they just expanded it to 3 minutes. 725 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,720 So you know, so obviously there is some value to more than just 726 00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:23,880 snippets, right? But unfortunately, my short form 727 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,840 content gets more views than my long form. 728 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,640 But by having folks like you on the show, maybe it'll draw more 729 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,240 people in. And I, this is some great 730 00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:35,720 conversations that people are missing out on if they don't 731 00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:38,400 listen. Because, you know, I think I've 732 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,240 got, I think I bring, I think I'm a good judge of character 733 00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:43,440 and I bring some really great guests on. 734 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,240 And I'm going to be honest, y'all make me look good. 735 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,520 I need a lot of help. I, I will say the one thing that 736 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,360 surprised me the most about content creation on TikTok is 737 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:58,280 like the quality of people who are content creators on the 738 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,240 platform like that. I didn't expect that. 739 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,080 Like there are a lot of people I hang out with and talk and it's 740 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,520 I, I had a mutual say, I didn't know you were actually close to 741 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,720 all of them. And I said if I, if I feature 742 00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:13,840 them on my channel, that means like we're actually friends 743 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,600 outside of this and we don't always talk board games. 744 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,920 And like I have their phone numbers and we talk and, and I 745 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,360 said it's not my fault they passed all of my tests. 746 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,960 Like I wish more of them didn't. That way they leave me alone. 747 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,040 Because there's so many of us, it's hard to keep up. 748 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,400 How do you balance keeping up with everyone? 749 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,360 It's called being an extrovert. Well, I'm an extrovert too, but 750 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,200 there's only so much time in a day. 751 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,840 There is only so much time in a day, but also like I almost have 752 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,720 exclusively online data my entire life. 753 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:49,520 And so like, and most of my friends like I've had since high 754 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,320 school, like we're very old school. 755 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,000 Like we like the only people they talk on their onto the 756 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,560 phone are their grandparents and me. 757 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,840 Like we send, we send care packages, I send corrections to 758 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:00,920 like their children. And I don't know, it's one of 759 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,920 those things where it's not one of those things where it's like 760 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,080 there's a schedule and then we like every Tuesday we talk, 761 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:08,800 right. When a lot of your friends are 762 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,560 content creators, a lot of your interaction is through the 763 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,320 videos that they create. And then that's true. 764 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,640 And then that turns into DMS. That turns into singing to each 765 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,920 other at conventions. There are a lot of people, but 766 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:25,120 also you, you make time for the people you care about. 767 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:26,640 I've always been a big believer in that. 768 00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:29,120 And it looks different. And also I think it's really 769 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,040 important to say that I acknowledge that you have a life 770 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,640 outside of me. Like it's OK to not return phone 771 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,480 calls every now and then. It's OK that like it was a 10 772 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,360 second phone call. Like I like someone's like I 773 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:41,840 only have 10 seconds. I just wanted to say hi, I'm 774 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,800 thinking of you. That's like, that's amazing to 775 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,960 have to have. I'd have like guys tell me that 776 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,360 like that's, that's like my favorite thing in the world and 777 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:51,600 so. I. 778 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,280 I think as someone who's always prioritized friendships and 779 00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,320 relationships and meaningful conversation, sometimes like 780 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,680 hello is very meaningful because because they have kids, they 781 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,200 have a whole, they have, they have whole lives. 782 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,600 They have to take 2 seconds and to say, I'm, I'm thinking of 783 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:09,760 you. And that's something I've spent 784 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,000 a lot of time working on is like if I only had a few seconds, 785 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,640 instead of sending like a quick text message, I just did a quick 786 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,560 call and leave. I, I leave notoriously bad and 787 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,200 awkward voicemails to be like be like, hey, cool. 788 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,120 I'm thinking if you kick a by curve, like that's literally all 789 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:25,960 my voicemails. I'm not kidding. 790 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,000 I. Love it. 791 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,920 I struggle because I identify with what you're saying. 792 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,600 As an extrovert, I love deep, meaningful conversation. 793 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:35,480 Relationships are important to me. 794 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,520 It's what drew me to this platform of podcasting. 795 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,320 I want a deep, meaningful conversation about meaningful 796 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:46,200 topics rather than just let's talk about board game A and the 797 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,440 mechanics and the theme and all those things we talked about. 798 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,800 But I want to get to the core of who you are as a person and how 799 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,400 that informs how you approach your design or playing this game 800 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,400 or whatever. And I just, I struggle with 801 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,280 there's just not enough time in the day, you know, balancing 802 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,040 work and the podcast and my family. 803 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,760 And then I feel like, man, I haven't talked to you or sent 804 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,040 you Adm or a text message in six months. 805 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,920 And that's on me. And you know, yeah. 806 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,680 I will say it's different. It's different also because I 807 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,160 started four years ago when there was only 14 people 808 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,120 creating content. That's fair. 809 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,760 And so like I, I didn't know that I was doing. 810 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,200 I mean, I did like, I know I was doing it at the time, but I 811 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,800 didn't realize I was kind of like the board game TikTok 812 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,160 welcome committee. Like the algorithm knew that 813 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,040 like I love watching board game content. 814 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,400 So they would send it to me and then I would DM them and be 815 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,240 like, hey, I love that you're making board game content. 816 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,760 If you ever want to pick my brain about anything, please 817 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:45,720 feel free. But I just wanted to say hello 818 00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:49,520 and I'm glad that you're here. And that's how I became friends 819 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:50,560 with so. And then it got to the point 820 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:51,880 where like you can't know everybody. 821 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,160 I'm like, no. You can't. 822 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,520 That's hard. That's really hard to grasp and 823 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,920 wrestle with because you just, you can't know everyone. 824 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,160 Now I'm musing about how I can't know everyone and how sorry I 825 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,800 feel that y'all can't know me and I can't know you. 826 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,680 So you have to just passively watch or listen to me and listen 827 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,160 to me talk to Kerbin this week, so. 828 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,760 I, I, I will say the we, I don't know this happened to you, but 829 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:22,680 as a, a content creator who shares more than just like I 830 00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:25,640 share aspects of my life on my channel, I share aspects of like 831 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,560 who I am and like what I believe. 832 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:34,040 The amount of people who've said things to me over the years that 833 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,080 I've never explicitly said was always really confusing. 834 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,960 Like as a content creator, you have no control over how people 835 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,120 connect to your content. I say that that's like the 836 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,880 number one thing I tell content creators is that like there are 837 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,880 gonna be people who are gonna love the content. 838 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,520 You hate them most and you're like mad that you created, but 839 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,440 there are people who are going to love it and they're going to 840 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:54,800 tell you it's the best thing ever. 841 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,080 But like having people I, I was, I was like, I remember I was 842 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,160 having a conversation and they said, oh, blah, blah, blah. 843 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:01,680 And I said, how do you know that? 844 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,680 Because I, I know, because all of my, you know, I'm 845 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,640 intentionally all my tik toks. I know what I'm talking about. 846 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,640 Like I know for a fact I've never stated what you said. 847 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,560 And like, well, you said this on this one TikTok, this one on 848 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,000 this TikTok and this year. And if you think about it, it 849 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:16,600 makes sense that you like think this. 850 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,160 And I was like, that's creepy. Like, I'm glad we're like, I'm 851 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:21,760 glad we're mutuals and it's fine. 852 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:26,560 But like, I, it's, it's, it, it takes me aback that there are 853 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,040 people who like, I'm grateful that there are people who are 854 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,920 that thoughtful, right? And, and, and enjoy my content 855 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,720 enough to remember things like having Tik Tok's quoted back to 856 00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:38,480 you is wild. I mean, it's wild. 857 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,840 And so having people do that, it just makes me feel really 858 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,600 grateful that I have built a platform that people genuinely 859 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,920 connect to. Yeah, I have never been had 860 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:53,400 anyone quote my podcast back to me, but I have had a few people 861 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,640 like they talk about it in such a way where I'm like, oh, they 862 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:02,080 did watch it, right? Like they'll drop, you know, key 863 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,600 moments and talks and I'm like, oh, wow, OK, there's a lot of 864 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,720 because most of my contents long form. 865 00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:13,280 I mean, you think an hour long. This is at this is episode 136. 866 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:18,320 That's a lot of hours of listening to this guy just wax 867 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:24,160 philosophical, philosophical about a hobby that he loves with 868 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,800 other people. I mean, and the fact that y'all 869 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:31,440 keep listening and keep coming back and join me on this wild 870 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,400 ride. Kervin, thank you so much for 871 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,920 sharing a little bit of your story and the story of Marsh 872 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,400 Hollow. So tell everyone when is the 873 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,200 launch date and where can they find you on all the things. 874 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,960 Marsh Hollow is launching on Tuesday, September 9th, 875 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,680 September 9th and you can it's it's called Marsh hollow. 876 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,040 It's on Kickstarter and I will be talking about it all over 877 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,120 TikTok which is 4Y games FOR WHYG AM. 878 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,000 Yes. Very good, very good guys. 879 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:06,000 Thank you so much. And as always, hit the like and 880 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,560 subscribe button. We need that. 881 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,520 We're really close to our one year goal. 882 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,560 I've got 94 subscribers. We're trying to hit 100. 883 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,320 The sooner I can hit that, the sooner I can start working on 884 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,040 the next goal for the second year. 885 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,800 So let's let's keep going and be kind to each other. 886 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:24,760 Let's play more games.