1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,120 Hey guys, and welcome to episode 118 of Maple to Maple. 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,320 It's passion in Perth. That's right. 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:09,600 I am going to be talking with a friend of mine from Perth, 4 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,160 Australia. This is an exciting episode. 5 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,760 I'm so happy to have you joining me. 6 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,760 As always, I remain PJ. You know, we had a conversation 7 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,440 over the weekend about why I remain PJ. 8 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,920 We were in Nashville at a gaming convention and people like, why 9 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,960 do you remain PJ? Did you at one time stop being 10 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,760 PJ? And to be honest with you, I've 11 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,080 always been PJI. Don't know why that happened. 12 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,720 So there you are. There's the story of it today. 13 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,160 That's enough about me. Today we've got my friend Ahmed 14 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,800 from Perth and he's going to talk about the gaming community, 15 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:44,600 Australia and everything. Ahmed, how are you? 16 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:52,480 So much fun. On the show it is 906 at night 17 00:00:52,480 --> 00:00:56,120 time, my side opposite of yours and so right. 18 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,120 Slightly sleepy and a bit tired, but. 19 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,640 You know it's all good I. Think it's one of the exciting 20 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:07,400 things the Oregon community I think these days is the ability 21 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,040 to just connect with much anyone anywhere I despite our industry 22 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,280 being so focused on the physical in person presence. 23 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:20,320 Right, absolutely. So it is 8 O 6:00 AM here in 24 00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:24,360 central Illinois. So this was a fun logistical 25 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,800 trying to coordinate, but we we got you on this is amazing. 26 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,160 So why don't you let's start. Why don't you just tell me a 27 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,680 little bit about like where you are and how did you get into the 28 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,360 modern board gaming community? Sure. 29 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,760 So I'm currently based in Perth, Australia. 30 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,520 It's a little, you know, less well known part of Australia. 31 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,400 Everybody always thinks about Sydney and Melbourne over the 32 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,560 East Coast, right? Which by the way is at least two 33 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,200 and sometimes 3 hours ahead depending on daylight saving so. 34 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,680 We're a bit. Closer to I guess in that sense, 35 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:00,440 you know, Southeast Asia and Oceana in terms of regional 36 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,440 proximity. And I started my journey into 37 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,680 this industry at the end of December 2020. 38 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,680 So what happened then was that I was working as a general manager 39 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:16,320 for a local agency and I was looking after around 17 40 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,080 globally. And it was a very stressful job. 41 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,480 And I have, you know, I had, I still do. 42 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:23,040 I have young kids, three of them. 43 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,080 And it was a remote job. So it just. 44 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:26,720 Piles on. You can. 45 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:28,920 See where it's going? Right. 46 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,240 It basically came to a point where I, I found it too 47 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,520 stressful and but to be honest, it was actually my dream job. 48 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,440 I loved what I was doing. I really enjoyed it, loved the 49 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,240 team a fantastic, you know, set up and everything. 50 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,560 But it's one of those things where you just know it was time 51 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,360 to move on. And I actually took a while to 52 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:55,000 sort of recover, you know, a bit of self-care, explored some 53 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,160 avenues in terms of what I'm doing next. 54 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,120 But one thing that I knew for sure was that I didn't want to 55 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,280 do something that had me spend time in front of the screen the 56 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,200 whole day. That was the biggest thing, 57 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:09,960 right? Right. 58 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,080 I think that's a struggle across the planet. 59 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,200 We hear that. We hear that all the time, yeah. 60 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,160 And then there was another thing, which was that I spoke a 61 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,600 lot with my wife. Obviously, as you know, I've 62 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:23,600 been married to her for a very long time. 63 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,160 I mean, I think for coming to 14, almost 15 years now and. 64 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:28,960 Hey, congratulations. Thank you. 65 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,880 So today, as of at the time that we're recording, my wife and I 66 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,440 are celebrating our 16th wedding anniversary today. 67 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:38,000 Congratulations. To you. 68 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,920 I know, so make sure you say a prayer for her because she's got 69 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,880 to put up with me. I, I get what you mean, brother. 70 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,440 And you know, I think one of the things, if you have someone who 71 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,840 you can, you know, confide with and non judgmental, not that was 72 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,640 that it was, it was. So it's a bit of a career 73 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:57,560 counseling moment. You know, we're discussing like, 74 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,200 hey, you know, what should I be doing next? 75 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,680 You know, based on my skills, what I've done before and all 76 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,080 that. And one thing that sort of 77 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,280 crossed our minds, and it wasn't just for me but for her as well, 78 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:13,400 is that we sort of wanted to do something that was going to be 79 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:15,960 long term in terms of the impact. 80 00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:18,399 And don't get me wrong, my wife is a physio. 81 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:21,240 What she does is amazing in terms of impacting, you know, 82 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,200 the community, the people she is helping to get better and 83 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,680 recover. And of course, even my job in 84 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,160 terms of the corporate sense, benefiting clients and all that. 85 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,760 But we wanted to, I guess see something that was a bit 86 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:37,440 different that would carry out beyond us in that sense, right? 87 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,680 So, right, another way to say it was that we're sort of thinking 88 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,160 like, OK, what about maybe a bit of legacy building? 89 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,920 And the reason why I use that word is that, you know, I'm now 90 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,280 37. I think you start losing count 91 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,840 after 30 and you're not getting younger. 92 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,640 And so you are having less and less opportunities in that sense 93 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:02,480 in terms of, you know, your time, your energy, your 94 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:08,040 interests, you sort of have less to go with in that sense, right? 95 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,600 So we're thinking like, OK, well, why don't we explore 96 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:13,960 something that is, you know, different in that sense? 97 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:19,520 And I still didn't really arrive at board games yet at that time. 98 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:24,520 And then the third part of this was actually considering how I 99 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,680 could do something that could also benefit my kids. 100 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,640 Because one of the things that I realized, and I'm sure a lot of 101 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,720 parents realized this as well, is that it's a challenge of 102 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,320 screen time is not just for us, it's for the kids. 103 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:42,200 And it's also in terms of how do you engage with your kids as 104 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,600 they grow up, right. And, and of course, as as a kid, 105 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,920 as a as a boy growing up, I played a lot of games like video 106 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,160 games. Right, whatever it is, right, 107 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:52,320 you, you know what I'm talking. About. 108 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,280 Yeah, absolutely. I grew up. 109 00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:58,480 With my gosh, yeah. StarCraft Brood War, that was 110 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,040 one of my favorite games. Used to play it a lot, even, you 111 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,200 know, StarCraft 2 when it came out and stuff like that and a 112 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,240 lot of RTS's in in general. I've of course played Risk and 113 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,440 like everybody else I also played Monopoly. 114 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,840 You guys might not know, but this it's a very obscure. 115 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,880 Yeah. And for me, I it came with the 116 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,160 realization that we can't really escape from games in that sense. 117 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,560 But you can harness the positive aspect of games, right? 118 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,360 There's the extreme negative aspect of microtransactions and 119 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,720 all the sort of, you know, mobile game rubbish that comes 120 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,240 up with gotcha and stuff like that. 121 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,040 But there's certainly a positive side of it that you can focus 122 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,440 on. And so those three things sort 123 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,520 of coalesced for me to come to say, hey, you know what, this 124 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,320 would be something really interesting. 125 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,920 And you need to go into and bear in mind this is I I wasn't 126 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,360 someone who knew anything about the industry. 127 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,200 I mean, I rediscovered or discovered modern board games a 128 00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:58,920 couple of years before that. I didn't know any designer or 129 00:06:59,280 --> 00:07:01,160 you know, like terminologies. Or like. 130 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,880 Here, you know, of a deck builder and this and that and 131 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:06,440 how you make a good game and stuff like that. 132 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,880 So I was literally starting at the bottom of the barrel, you 133 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:12,360 know? Wow. 134 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:13,560 Yeah. Wow. 135 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,600 OK, That's interesting. I did not realize. 136 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:18,240 I'm so glad we started with this. 137 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,000 I didn't. I didn't know how recently, 138 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:23,800 Right. You had come to the modern 139 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:25,960 gaming hobby. That's incredible. 140 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:27,480 That's incredible. That's great. 141 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:29,800 Yes. Tell tell me more. 142 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,680 To give you a bit of context, when I mentioned that, you know, 143 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:37,000 I discovered modern board games, that was a period of time where 144 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,320 I was buying so many board games. 145 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,800 I think I got my wife to play like I think 80. 80 new board 146 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,320 games in a month. That was like at the peak of it. 147 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,480 She wasn't happy because it just filled. 148 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,520 No one, no one understands what that's like. 149 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,280 You know no one buys too many board games, right? 150 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,400 Exactly. So hey, let me real quick. 151 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,400 What was the first one? What was the first game in the 152 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,240 modern hobby when you got into it a few years ago? 153 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,040 What was the first game that you bought and what was the first 154 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,840 game you played with your wife? I want to say it was probably 155 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,760 land versus Sea by Good Games. Publishing. 156 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:11,800 Yeah. Yeah. 157 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,720 OK. I'm pretty sure it was something 158 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,760 like that and or King Domino, one of those two like it was 159 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:18,800 like a pretty. Well known. 160 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:20,440 Title. I remembered like getting 161 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,480 excited to tell my wife, hey, you know what? 162 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,760 End of the year's sale. Why don't we just buy a few? 163 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:30,880 Little did she know. 88 games later, yeah. 164 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:32,280 That's right. That's right. 165 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,039 I did. So how did she, how did she take 166 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:37,120 to it? So you sit her down and play a 167 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,600 game and was she, did she fall in love like you did or how did 168 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:42,880 that process take place? So. 169 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:45,440 I fell in love with with board games, right? 170 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:51,200 And and she fell asleep. That's that's a bit unfair. 171 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,880 I mean, she she does enjoy board games, but she certainly doesn't 172 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,680 enjoy anything that's too heavy. So you know. 173 00:08:58,680 --> 00:09:01,480 OK. Like I, I love Robinson Crusoe, 174 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,120 Spirit Island, Mage Night, right? 175 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,480 I mean, I would never ever play those sorts of games with her. 176 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,640 It would need to be games that I can probably something like 177 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,960 pandemic level is something that she enjoys in terms of a mix of 178 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,200 skill and difficulty. So sort of gateway level games. 179 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,360 Of course, simpler games should she'd be happy to play. 180 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:20,320 With as well. So. 181 00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:25,520 So that means that you had to go out and find other gamers in 182 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,200 Perth, right? Absolutely. 183 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,280 What I did was I spent so much time on Facebook Marketplace, 184 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:32,920 like hunting the best deals, you know? 185 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:34,920 Right. Yes. 186 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:41,600 So yeah, I, I started hooking up with people who happen to have, 187 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,000 you know, treasure troves or board games, and they just never 188 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,520 have the time to play them. And they're like, OK, you know 189 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:49,960 what? I bought this game. 190 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,200 I had to look at it. I'm selling it because a new 191 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,360 batch of Kickstarter games are coming, you know, right? 192 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,200 I'm like, OK, sure. Right. 193 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,200 So yeah. So what's the gaming community 194 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,000 like now? Is it? 195 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:08,000 I imagine it's more vibrant than what people would expect. 196 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:14,120 So I can speak for her since I was a bit active up until I 197 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,000 wasn't asked. But there are definitely a few 198 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,920 different, I guess major groups. There's the WABA, which is West 199 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,000 Australian Board Game Association. 200 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,560 That's probably the biggest one or most active that's well 201 00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:29,160 known. There's one local 1 near mine 202 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,040 called Meeples Decks and Dice or MDD. 203 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:36,240 Shout out to them. And there are a few other ones 204 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,160 close by and local. They're, you know, small, but I 205 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,480 think they try and be active in terms of getting a group 206 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,840 together and just start playing. There are definitely a healthy 207 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:51,240 and very active community and certainly it's difficult in the 208 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,120 sense that, you know, we're far away from everyone, Australia 209 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,160 and then Perth specifically. But I think in that sense, Perth 210 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,960 has built its own resilience and saying, you know what, that's 211 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,040 OK. It's cool if we're not allowed 212 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,840 to join the cool kids, we'll just make our own group and our 213 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,880 own club. So I'm listening to and I'm 214 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,280 looking up a few stats about Perth, sure, because I I have to 215 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,280 admit I don't know a lot about Perth but I knew where it was 216 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,680 located and what not. It according it says it's got 217 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:19,920 2.3 million people. Yeah. 218 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,880 So it's it's a pretty substantial city. 219 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:28,360 So I imagine that just statistically there's a 220 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,360 substantial group of gamers. And how many board game cafes or 221 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,640 local board game stores exist in the area? 222 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,240 There are a few board game elements. 223 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,320 I'm not sure if cafe is the right word, but certainly I 224 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,600 guess retail shops that have just. 225 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,040 Spaces for people to. Play I'm not too sure about 226 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,320 cafes specifically, but there are at least let me see good 227 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,680 games Tannington over this area, good games. 228 00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:56,880 Rockingham down South. There might be a few more up 229 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,680 north. So I'm sort of down South of the 230 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:02,680 river and there's further South. And then I guess further up 231 00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:06,200 north is where there are a lot more communities probably, but 232 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,960 it's a bit too far for me to travel on a regular basis. 233 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,520 How often do you and your do your local game group you all 234 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:17,400 get together and game? So they get together around 235 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,920 twice a month, and when I was active, I did join that. 236 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,400 And then obviously once I started working on games, that 237 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,040 sort of tanked as I spent all my time just designing and 238 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,640 prototyping and play testing instead of actually, you know, 239 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,720 playing like a normal person. Sure. 240 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,960 How about gaming conventions? You know, like obviously here in 241 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,960 the United States we've got Origins and Dice Tower and Gen. 242 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,640 Con England has UKGE Essen in Germany. 243 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,800 Is there anything, is it maybe not comparable in size? 244 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,080 Obviously Essen Essen takes the cake, but so we have. 245 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,560 So last weekend, last weekend's a perfect example. 246 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,920 I was in Nashville, TN, it was a small gaming convention of about 247 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,760 700. There was another one going on 248 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,240 in Nebraska, right? That was about the same size. 249 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,560 There was another one up north of us in Milwaukee that was 250 00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:11,160 about maybe 1000. Are there? 251 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,200 Are there little gaming gathering conventions like that 252 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,040 in your area? Definitely. 253 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,120 I mean, there's in Perth, there's probably Pixel X file I 254 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,880 want to say is probably the biggest one and that happens 255 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,840 once a year, sometime in October nationally in Australia. 256 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,520 There are a few more over E hax. Australia is probably the 257 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:35,480 biggest one, but there's also I got it right, can con and a 258 00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:39,160 board game BBQ will set their own might be one or two more, 259 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,960 but yeah, it's sort of spread around the year. 260 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:47,640 And so we've got a few going on and they, from what I can see, 261 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,600 certainly make an effort to, you know, also highlight and feature 262 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,120 local designers as well. And it's not just about 263 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,280 convention for for gamers, but also to highlight, you know, 264 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,080 local talents as well. OK, cool. 265 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:02,880 So how often do you get out to Sydney? 266 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,360 Probably never. OK. 267 00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:09,200 It's it's, yeah, it's, it's. It's definitely a bit of a, of a 268 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:15,120 distance and I only, I went to Melbourne for PAX Australia two 269 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,960 years ago and that was the only time that I, I did go there 270 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:22,640 effectively for a convention. So I haven't gone to any since. 271 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,640 And I think it's, it's always A, at least for someone in Perth, 272 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,720 it's always a question of, well, what's the trade off Like? 273 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,720 Are you just going there just to go for fun, right. 274 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,920 Which is cool. But if you're going there to 275 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,800 sell things and you know, you got to either way, you've got to 276 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,440 manage your finances and budget as well. 277 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,360 So yeah. Yep, yeah, we all have the same 278 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:42,720 concerns. Absolutely. 279 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,040 So you're working on, you said that you became a little bit 280 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,920 inactive, you started designing and play testing games. 281 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,800 So I know you've got a game coming out and but I don't know 282 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:53,080 if you have anything before that. 283 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:57,960 So talk to us more about what pulled you away from the gaming 284 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,080 community and into design. Sure. 285 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,840 So the biggest enjoyment as a designer, at least I can say 286 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,840 personally, this may not be represented by all game 287 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:12,760 designer, is the creative aspect of curating an idea or concept, 288 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:17,400 instilling it into an experience that, you know, have these 289 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,680 really great moments and you want someone else to discover 290 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,200 them, right. But to get to that point, it 291 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,040 really is, I guess, polishing a piece of marble with, I don't 292 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,240 know, the the most horrible piece of rag because it just 293 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,960 takes forever, right? Right. 294 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,080 Yes. Yeah, I spend easily like, you 295 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,920 know, 40 plus hours every week when I when I started like 296 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,200 working on just different designs. 297 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,840 And the first design that I did when I actually started, it was 298 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,480 for a BGG contest or game contest. 299 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,120 And I think it was for like a nine card game, right. 300 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,240 And this nine card game I spend I don't know what it was. 301 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,000 It was a lot of hours, like just for a nine card game and I 302 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,360 learned a lot from doing that. But yeah, just the whole 303 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,600 experience of trying to figure it out and at the same time, you 304 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:10,040 know, like, how do you, what materials, what tools do you 305 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,080 start using? Like I was trying to figure so 306 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:17,080 many things on top of learning about game design as well. 307 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,560 So that's why it was just so all consuming that I pretty much. 308 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:21,920 Didn't have time to do anything else. 309 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,120 So how many, how many games have you designed total? 310 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,240 Yeah. So in terms of prototyping, I I 311 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,480 prototyped 30 plus games in my first year and then. 312 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,680 First year. Wow. 313 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,240 OK. One of those, one of them was 314 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,240 selected for PAX Australia, which was Farmhouse Frenzy and I 315 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,920 went on to try and pitch that to several dozen publishers after 316 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:51,680 that. But then the year after, which 317 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:56,400 is last year, I came up, I think I worked on probably 15 318 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,120 different designs and a few of them I ended up, you know, 319 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:02,560 getting self published effectively. 320 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,480 One of them I have it here is actually tiny, tiny games with 321 00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:11,160 the murmuring Mystic. So it's actually a small game. 322 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,960 Well, two games in one. There's actually a third game, 323 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,040 another booklet. I don't have it with me, but 324 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,480 they specialize these these guys Murmuring Mystic as an rank 325 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,920 brother and sister team. They specialize in basically 326 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,760 magazine sized games that you can just, you know, buy and then 327 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,360 play at home straight away. You might need a couple of dice, 328 00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:35,120 maybe some pencils, but it's something really simple and easy 329 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:38,560 for you to do the games in here. Number one is dice and Stewart, 330 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:43,520 which is about creating a combo of, you know, points in cooking 331 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,080 your stuff but not overcooking it Nice. 332 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:51,680 And then silver beard successor is a game about trying to hide 333 00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:55,200 your treasure in different spots, but also trying to guess 334 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,240 where other people are hiding their treasure and stealing 335 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:57,760 theirs. Right. 336 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,760 So that's and then there's another one, which is Blades of 337 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,040 Velcrest, which is a cooperative defend your town against 338 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,600 invaders and monsters. And I also have also had 339 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,960 anything you can do with Ryan Cross and that's a party game 340 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,080 where you're trying to do a little bit of light physical 341 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,560 challenges plus a bit of trivia within like a set time limit. 342 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:26,080 And that quantity in terms of the challenges increases with 343 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,440 each player. And so you know who will break 344 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,760 as it builds up kind of stuff. So I've worked on a few small 345 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,160 games and each one effectively became a bit of a bigger 346 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,840 project, right? And all of my projects are very 347 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:43,640 characteristic in the sense that almost all them that I try and I 348 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,880 have another designer that I work with and collaborate with, 349 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,200 I find that that helps to accelerate your learning and 350 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,680 also to challenge your own biases about what works well and 351 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,040 what doesn't, right? Yeah. 352 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:01,400 So, yeah, as a play tester, I can say that that's, yeah, that 353 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:06,200 resonates. Sometimes you hit resistance, 354 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,200 you get a designer who's so married to their game and 355 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,080 they're so married to their idea and they want a fresh 356 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:13,880 perspective. But when it's not what they want 357 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,360 to hear and it's not like we as play testers are trying to be 358 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:18,840 rude. We're just trying to help you 359 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,800 because we believe in the game. And then others take a fresh 360 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:24,920 perspective and they're like, tear it apart, you know? 361 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,880 So it's it's interesting, but you need it. 362 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,000 You absolutely need that collaboration. 363 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,320 I totally agree. That's that's incredible. 364 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,760 So after anything you can do came. 365 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,240 So that after I worked on that, I mean, I was, I was still 366 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:39,720 working on other designs in the side. 367 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,240 So that's when I started focusing on the solely, which 368 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,600 was the game that just got out a month ago basically. 369 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,840 Well, now it's April. So two months ago it was in 370 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,520 February, and it was. Lost and so for our listeners, 371 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:57,600 this is the game you've been waiting to hear about right, 372 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,200 right, right, right. This is this is the. 373 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:03,800 So here's interesting story because let's contextualize. 374 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,400 While our relationship is new sure how we met so my good 375 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,520 friend Laura who is at obsessed with board games on Instagram. 376 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:17,160 She got a review copy of your game or she I don't, she 377 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:17,840 introduced. Us. 378 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,600 Yes, yes. And and she's like, you guys 379 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,840 need to because she introduced me to Palgan in India. 380 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,840 That's how he came on the show. So, so Laura, thank you once 381 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:28,280 again. Thank you. 382 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,280 She's gonna be on the show next week, so we're gonna be talking 383 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,520 about community, so it's gonna be exciting. 384 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:38,640 But yeah, so that's how we met. And she was like, you're a 385 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,440 perfect fit. And I wanted to hear your story. 386 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:42,480 Right. I'm really interested in both 387 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:47,040 your story as a gamer, as a designer, and then I want to 388 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:48,760 hear about Usoli. Yes, right. 389 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,560 Yeah, yeah. So it's is it on Kickstarter or 390 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,000 has it, has it fulfilled or is where we at it's finished? 391 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,120 Only 95% fulfilled. There are just OK, four or five 392 00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:01,480 people who seem to not want their game. 393 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,400 I've like emailed OK, I've messaged them and for whatever 394 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:06,800 reason they haven't gotten back to me. 395 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,760 So. If they don't want it, I'll take 396 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,600 it. There you go. 397 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:13,560 Just give me your address after this, right? 398 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,920 I'll just mark it as well. If you're listening to this and. 399 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,560 You're waiting for your copy. Please get back to me. 400 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,880 Get back to him right away. Otherwise, I'm going to get your 401 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,240 copy that's. It. 402 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,080 So tell us about Usoli. This game is this game is just, 403 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,000 I don't know that they're I think, I think theme wise 404 00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:36,600 there's nothing like it on the market, not in the not in the 405 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,520 West, I don't think. And it just seems really 406 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,400 interesting and I want to, I'd like to hear more. 407 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:41,680 Yeah. So tell us about it. 408 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,800 I had the box here just now. I don't know if it showed up but 409 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,000 there it is. So Usoli is actually pretty 410 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,960 small. It is a small yeah a. 411 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,080 Lot smaller than a lot of people expect. 412 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,360 So they're like, oh, that's actually really small. 413 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:56,360 I thought in the picture maybe it's just a leaflet, you know, 414 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,240 not the actual game. But anyway, period. 415 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,160 Is that that's the gate so we'll. 416 00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:02,840 So for those of you who are, yeah, for those of you who are 417 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,080 listening and not watching this because I've got a lot of 418 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,360 Spotify listeners, right. The gate, the box is rather 419 00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:12,280 small, yes, but it's so it's it's like a it's the blue sky 420 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,880 and it's matted, but you've got a beautiful glossy finish. 421 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:16,720 Yes. Over. 422 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,600 What is that? Is that the that's the, is that 423 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,400 the image? It's, it's a yeah, it's a is it, 424 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,080 it's a generic. OK, yeah, yeah. 425 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,480 I thought it might have been the Haggia Sophia, right in Turkey, 426 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,680 but I wasn't sure. OK, So it's a mosque. 427 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:30,400 Yeah. All right. 428 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,400 It's beautiful. The artwork is amazing. 429 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:32,920 So. Yeah. 430 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,400 So that's what he's holding up. It's not a very big. 431 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,040 You could easily travel with this. 432 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:38,800 Yes. Yes, maybe not in your pocket. 433 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,840 Absolutely no, it won't fit in your pocket, but it will fit in 434 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,760 your backpack. When you're going to PAX 435 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:47,360 Australia, that's. It that's. 436 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,280 It that's a plug for PAX Australia. 437 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,920 If they like to host meatball to meatball and fly us down, we're 438 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,560 ready to go. For sure. 439 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,960 So the story with solely was that as I was developing lots of 440 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,760 different ideas and concepts and prototypes. 441 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,520 Obviously, creating something that has close association with 442 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,720 your personal values and identity is very powerful 443 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:13,200 because you can pull. Your personal. 444 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:14,800 Experiences. It's very authentic. 445 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,880 Yes. But with Islamic games. 446 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:19,520 OK. Just to give context for anyone 447 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,280 not aware. Solely has a religious theme. 448 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,280 It's about the five daily Islamic prayers or Salah, and 449 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,560 you're basically trying to do them throughout the day. 450 00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:33,360 But The thing is that this game is not a religious game, which 451 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:35,760 means that you don't need to be Muslim. 452 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,240 You don't need to know anything about Islamic prayers in order 453 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,880 to play the game. Everything is revealed to you as 454 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,680 you read the rules and understand the terminology and 455 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,200 play the game. And I can watch that because I 456 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,960 have a lot of people who basically come from that. 457 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,280 You know, a lot of the especially reviewers who are 458 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,520 non-muslim, they just learn from the game and figure out how it 459 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:57,840 works. Like I didn't need to tell them 460 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,280 as they say, hey, look at look at this Wikipedia page or 461 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:01,880 whatever. So all The thing is there, 462 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,560 right? But when I was developing not 463 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,240 even a solid yet, but in my first year, I actually tried to 464 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,000 explore some Islamic concepts to try to get games. 465 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,840 And I had some reflection about, well, what, what is it about 466 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,760 Islamic games that you know, where, where are they in terms 467 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,240 of the landscape right now? And when I look back from my own 468 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,960 experiences, I know my parents did try to, you know, find 469 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,080 Islamic themed games as we're growing up. 470 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:33,360 But I knew personally that a lot of them weren't really fun. 471 00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:37,840 And the reason is they tend to focus on trivia as a primary. 472 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,440 Mechanism. And so if you knew the answers 473 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,000 already, you're going to win the game. 474 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,760 And if you don't, well, you're going to not have a great time. 475 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,800 And there wasn't much more beyond that. 476 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,560 Sure, there's a an educational aspect, but you know, as a game, 477 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,640 it wasn't really, they weren't really games in that set. 478 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,200 So that's one of the things that for me, it was like, I wanted to 479 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,240 make a game that was a game first, right? 480 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,120 And the theme was. Something that. 481 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:06,040 Was baked in, so not the other way, not that oh, it's such a 482 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,840 great theme, but it's not an actual game that you can play, 483 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,280 right. So that was for me a really 484 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,520 important thing. The second thing was that with 485 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,480 religious topics, or I guess any topics that you know, there's 486 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,160 like the difference between fact and fiction is obvious. 487 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:21,760 Like you can't make things up, you have to follow. 488 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,080 Through things. Right there. 489 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,400 Is absolutely. Great difficulty in trying to 490 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,480 find theme and mechanisms that match and marry together. 491 00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:34,080 Yep. So we. 492 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,920 We went through quite a lot of different sort of prototypes 493 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,520 and, and concepts and it was like, sometimes we'll find it 494 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:45,240 cool concept and then we couldn't find a good mechanic 495 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:46,840 for it. And sometimes it was the other 496 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,560 way around. I had a concept about trying to, 497 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,680 you know, create an Astrolay, for example, and it was giving 498 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,400 you directions and it was really cool as a mechanic, but it 499 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:01,040 didn't work quite well when you try to, you know, play it and 500 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,480 and so. After that's that's too bad 501 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,800 because that sounds really cool. Well, just you wait because 502 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,120 something might eventually surface, but I'm not going to 503 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:10,240 say anything yet further. OK. 504 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,360 After so many, you know, trial and error, I actually paused on 505 00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:18,760 a solid for a while because we just couldn't find something 506 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,360 that worked. So at this point we actually 507 00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:22,440 didn't have was solely as a game yet. 508 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,800 I guess in that sense, like we knew we wanted to have this 509 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,840 theme eventually, like after different prototypes, we were 510 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,680 like, OK, this is a theme that we want to focus on. 511 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,680 We just couldn't find a way to make it work that would make it 512 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,840 fun. And so I paused and then I said, 513 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,840 OK, that's cool. You know, it is what it is. 514 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,440 That's fine. Other things to work on and had 515 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,440 another game which is about the water crisis in sub-Saharan 516 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,480 Africa right and so you're trying to build wells in order 517 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,280 as a village folk effectively like as a community and trying 518 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,880 to build these wells to produce clean water access which then 519 00:26:56,360 --> 00:27:00,360 demonstrates how that access will provide better future for 520 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:03,120 the next generation of that. I just as a side note, based on 521 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:05,120 what I mentioned earlier, you know, my considerations going 522 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:09,960 into this, I was very conscious to want to try to pursue games 523 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,320 and themes that focused on positive impact and a bit of 524 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,960 reflection on the player side. So it wasn't just like, you 525 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,720 know, like, OK, here's a fun game and that was it. 526 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,120 Like I want to try and see, OK, is there a sort of deeper layer 527 00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:27,040 that I can engage players? So anyway, back to that water 528 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:28,680 game. The theme was cool. 529 00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:34,040 The mechanic that I had in there eventually was OK, and I 530 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,600 actually thought, you know what, this might work better in a 531 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,280 solid. So I actually ported that system 532 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,440 from that game and then moved it to Solid. 533 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,520 And then when we played it, we were blown away because it 534 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,800 worked so well. It just made sense with the 535 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,120 theme in mind. And for those of you who know 536 00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:55,960 the game very well known Splendor, right, that we had 537 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,840 some inspiration from that as well. 538 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,080 And you will probably notice that in this how there's, you 539 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,040 know, like a grid of cards and stuff like that. 540 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,240 But yeah, we, you know, worked on that. 541 00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:09,400 And then that sort of set the ball rolling because once we 542 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,560 found that core mechanic that worked really well with theme, 543 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:17,480 then it was just focused on refining it, finding a suitable 544 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,960 artist to, you know, work on the art. 545 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,720 I knew personally that the art could not have a strong 546 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,280 religious representation in the sense of I guess someone like, I 547 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,160 guess it makes sense if I say like someone holding a cross, 548 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,440 right? Like that is a very strong kind 549 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,640 of representation, which may make some people like, I don't 550 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,800 want that sort of game, that sort of thing, right. 551 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:39,920 Like in here. I didn't. 552 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,920 You don't have any image of, you know, someone praying with 553 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,840 prayer beads or holding the Quran and that sort of stuff, 554 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,720 right? It's all very focused on 555 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,320 architectural art effect. So very neutral and approachable 556 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,200 art in that sense. OK. 557 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:59,440 And so it was really so many different, I guess, bits of 558 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:05,600 conscious decision around how this game should be made in 559 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,760 regards to the audience that would play it. 560 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,200 And Speaking of that, that's actually another interesting 561 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,840 challenge because I knew that I wanted to create a game that had 562 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,080 some depth, which means it needed some complexity, right? 563 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,000 Absolutely yes. And for the board game 564 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,840 community, this game is considered a light filler game 565 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,480 for them. It's like, you know what? 566 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,560 I can learn it in like 10 seconds and we'll. 567 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,080 Play right. But for the vast majority of the 568 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,400 Muslim community, they are not familiar with board games and 569 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,720 with modern board games, right? They're familiar with things 570 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,440 like, again, Monopoly, maybe Scrabble, right? 571 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,520 Like a really, really simple game, Uno. 572 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,400 And so for them, they expect, oh we will just learn the game in 2 573 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,200 minutes and we'll already know or like it needs to play like 574 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,600 Uno for us to play so. There was. 575 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,200 Definitely a bit of concern and sort of hesitation around that, 576 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,320 right? And at the same time, again, 577 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,960 because of the religious theme, there was also hesitation around 578 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,920 how would be accepted outside of the Western communities. 579 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,960 We're sort of like, are we really creating this game? 580 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,920 Like, is this going to be like a pariah where nobody actually 581 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,280 likes it that? Was So in Full disclosure, that 582 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,040 was my initial reaction. When Laura first told me about 583 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,120 the game, I was like, what? Yes, what? 584 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,480 And then and then I was like, tell me more. 585 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:30,400 Yeah. So how was Usoli received by the 586 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,760 Muslim community when you introduced it to them? 587 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,080 So you have to sort of split it into layers because again, we're 588 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:38,600 not a monolith, just like board gamers. 589 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,960 Are not a monolith, Absolutely. There there's that are good at 590 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,480 playing heavy games or not, but with the Muslim community, I 591 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,800 mean there, there's an intersection, particularly, I 592 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,880 guess I would say the younger generation, it could be 30 plus 593 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,760 could be younger as well, maybe young parents and they they are 594 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,280 aware and and they do enjoy playing modern board games, 595 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:03,000 right And so for them when they see this like they connect the 596 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,880 dots and they're like, OMG, that is amazing because it's 597 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,480 something that represents my identity positively, right, 598 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,480 especially in regards to the sort of global climate on 599 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,320 things, but also it's a fun game. 600 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:20,800 So it's. Like that's incredible. 601 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:21,320 That's. Right. 602 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,800 So for the Muslim community who are gamers, They they love it, 603 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,200 right? For the Muslim community who are 604 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,280 not gamers, there is a bit of a bridge to. 605 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,400 Crossover. Right, because you need to teach 606 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,040 them the game for them to understand it first. 607 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,080 But once they understand it, I mean, they're like blown away 608 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,560 because there is, I can safely say literally nothing else like 609 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,040 this like in terms of how this theme is implemented, right? 610 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,120 So so far very positive reception. 611 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,920 Any any pushback at all? Did you encounter any 612 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,280 resistance? I think the probably immediate 613 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,280 concern is that sure, how accurate is this from from 614 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,400 again, Muslim community and it's a natural thing to ask because 615 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,320 you're talking about one of the five core pillars of the 616 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:08,600 religion, right? And it's like. 617 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,640 Well, yeah, is. This are you doing justice or 618 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,040 did you decide to just like now I'm going to, you know, mash 619 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,320 things up and it's hey, if someone learns this, they're 620 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:16,960 just like, Nope, that's not the right way. 621 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,280 So that was a big initial concern for, you know, some 622 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,800 people when they saw the game. But also similar to that, there 623 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:31,600 are some Muslim countries who are more astringent in terms of 624 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:36,400 religious content like or Brunei, where you need to pass 625 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,840 your content through their, you know, religious department first 626 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:41,520 or you can do anything else legally. 627 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,240 And so I mean, those are just, you know, it is what it is. 628 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,560 It is what it is situation. It's not a problem, of course, 629 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,960 but yeah, that that's the sort of immediate concerns that come 630 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,360 up with regards to creating such a game like. 631 00:32:54,760 --> 00:33:00,800 Is there a substantial or vibrant Islamic community in and 632 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:06,400 around the greater Perth area? There are, there's definitely, I 633 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,640 guess a big general community. What I would say is that they're 634 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,960 probably more active or focused sub communities depending on 635 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,280 where they're originally from, For example, Pakistani 636 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,440 community, Indian community or Malaysian or Singapore and all 637 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,520 that. I mean, obviously we have meets 638 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,840 and gatherings where we do connect with each other, but I 639 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,400 think there's a little bit of a comfort in a particular culture 640 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,320 that you've grown up in which you will generally associate 641 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,480 sure more with, which is, you know, just it's not limited to 642 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,560 religion, pretty much any anything else like nationality 643 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:41,760 and all that. You go like, hey, I'm going to 644 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,280 hang with people who grew up the same way I grew up, right? 645 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:45,400 That's sort. Of right. 646 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:52,800 So did you in terms of spreading the word for Usoli, was it just 647 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,240 in the local Muslim communities in around your area? 648 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:01,480 Did you manage to break out into predominantly Muslim countries? 649 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,960 If you did, how did you achieve that? 650 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,280 Sure. So with Usoli, when I knew it 651 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:13,840 was time to start marketing this, which was sometime in late 652 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,800 last year, right? Like I knew I was going to go 653 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,679 into full production and stuff like that, right? 654 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,520 I started basically just Googling up and searching up, 655 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,800 hey, other Muslim communities around board game design. 656 00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:29,480 And this is one of the things that I was very active in when I 657 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,679 started in this industry, which is to actively connect with 658 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,679 designers, just designers, right? 659 00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:37,600 I would be like, hey, are you OK if I just have a chat with you 660 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,159 and learn from you, your journey, your challenges and 661 00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:41,800 stuff? So I was no stranger to just 662 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,440 reaching out and connecting with people across the globe. 663 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,440 And with the Solid, I started doing that for Islamic board 664 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,800 game design. The thing is, from my research, 665 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,400 no such community existed. So I was like, OK, well, if 666 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,040 they're not, I'll just create 1. And so I created an online 667 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,840 community, right? And then we slowly sort of grew 668 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,840 larger and organically, other designers, literally, I have 669 00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:08,800 someone from Turkey, a few from the US, another guy here in 670 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,960 Australia, a few in Southeast Asia. 671 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,000 And so it was just slowly connecting them together and 672 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,080 just saying, hey, guys, you know, it is a solitary 673 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,560 experience in some design, but we should try and connect 674 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,400 because of the themes they're working on are similar in scope, 675 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,720 right? So I actually focused a lot on 676 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:32,080 international reach and in fact, locally, it's only now that I'm 677 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:37,280 starting to reach out to sort of local communities and events in 678 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,040 terms of, you know, Muslim communities and all that. 679 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:44,720 I think it was it was more the fact that I knew that this is 680 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,800 this product was a game 1st instead of a religious material 681 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,840 1st, that it was easier to connect with communities that 682 00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:58,000 were game focused or understood the value of that game 683 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,120 component. You didn't have to sell. 684 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:01,720 In that sense. They were like, OK, we 685 00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:03,200 understand. It's a really, really cool game 686 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,720 compared to right, It's a game. So what? 687 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,520 Sure. So I want to, I want to ask 688 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,640 about a little bit more about the game itself. 689 00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:15,320 There is and, and to be fair, Laura prompted me on some of 690 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,200 these questions. Sure, sure. 691 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,400 Because because she has a copy of the game, apparently there's 692 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,160 a normal and an advanced mode in solely. 693 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,640 Yes. Tell me a little bit about that. 694 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,360 Why the two modes? How do they operate? 695 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,200 Yeah, yeah. So actually there are three 696 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,840 modes, right, There's basic advance and solo mode and solo 697 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,760 you can use either of the difficulty levels right And the 698 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,440 reason for that number one again, this is a game first like 699 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,600 I knew with modern board games, solo modes are really popular. 700 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,040 I'm a. Solo gamer. 701 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,000 I love playing solo games as well. 702 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,440 So for me, initially I thought, you know what, this game doesn't 703 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,280 need it, right? But then I thought, but, but 704 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,720 that actually strengthens the value proposition as a game if I 705 00:36:56,720 --> 00:36:58,880 have that solo mode. But with the basic and advanced 706 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,160 mode, it was again recognition that some people who start 707 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,880 playing this game may not may have difficulty in trying to 708 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,520 absorb everything in one go. So it's better to shuffle the 709 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,520 strategic choices and the rules in terms of basic and advanced 710 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,000 mode. Again, not to say that the basic 711 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,200 is super easy for someone who's only familiar with Uno and all 712 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,560 that, but it does, you know, break it down a little bit to 713 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,600 make it a bit more graceful for your first time. 714 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,200 Instead of saying here are 100 different rules, it's more like 715 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:33,520 here are. 50 rules only, right? So it sounds like it initially 716 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,720 didn't have a solo mode. I feel like I was listening to 717 00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:40,400 you talk about that for a minute and I was like, it seems natural 718 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:46,120 for a game that is about the daily prayers, which is a very 719 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:51,240 solitary event, right, spiritually for there to be a 720 00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:55,200 solo mode in this game, right? I'm like, of course. 721 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,680 So I, I, I have to ask, how does it play at two players? 722 00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:01,680 Have you and your wife sat down and played it? 723 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,800 How's that experience? And I ask because my wife and I 724 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,880 play a lot of games so we look at the two player aspect. 725 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:13,040 Yeah, so my wife is, you know, my number one play tester 726 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:18,480 whether she likes it or not. Right, for all of my products. 727 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,280 And all that. So we definitely played a lot of 728 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,040 this two players. The thing is with the sole, I 729 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,480 mean, it's interesting you highlighted about that solo 730 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:28,920 aspect like it. It seems obvious. 731 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,120 So with with the when we were designing this right, again, she 732 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:34,680 gave a lot of input and feedback, which is why I'm 733 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,160 saying we even though her name is not on there, but she should 734 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,320 be so. Well, you need to change that 735 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:40,240 soon. I need to change that. 736 00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:42,520 That's right, that's right. Otherwise, I'm going to be the 737 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,160 doghouse. Right. 738 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,280 But we actually wanted to, or at least we tried to make a game 739 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,040 that was cooperated, present competitive, right? 740 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,520 So we were like, you know what, based on the theme, we wanted 741 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:58,120 something that would get people together and like, you know, get 742 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,720 them to have something that they can positively share and stuff 743 00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:04,480 like that. What we found out was that a 744 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,360 cooperative game is slightly more complicated than a 745 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,680 competitive game because you have to add on those layers to 746 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,480 say, hey, be nice to each other, hey, here are some goals for you 747 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,680 to work together. But a competitive game is like 748 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,000 everybody understands that, like, I want to win, I'm going 749 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:21,480 to beat. You. 750 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,400 Yes, yes. So again, in terms of. 751 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,520 Making sure it was a game first, we decided, OK, it's going to, 752 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,800 you know, focus on the competitive aspect. 753 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,120 And so at two player count and at three player count, this is 754 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,320 where the game plays best at. Because. 755 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:42,560 Some of the feedback, especially from reviewers, is that the game 756 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,360 plays really, really quickly at the four player. 757 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,920 And the reason why is because the number of turns don't really 758 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,440 change regardless of the player count. 759 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,160 That means that a larger player counts. 760 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:56,520 And it's, it's a, it's a very simple reason. 761 00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:01,280 I wanted to keep the game a certain duration and not to take 762 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,760 over than that, Right. And of course, for gamers, 763 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,080 they'd be like, no, we want it to be. 764 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,280 Perfectly balanced at different C levels. 765 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,560 But this is one of the things that as a designer, I, I had to 766 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,640 make that decision to say, well, what is more important as part 767 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,960 of the package, you know, in order to respect the theme and 768 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:20,960 the intended audience and, and stuff like. 769 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,080 That right, Yeah. OK. 770 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,440 So it plays better at 3:00. 2 Two or three players is 771 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,640 basically the. Two or three and at four 772 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,240 players, it's too fast. That's interesting. 773 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,240 Typically games tend to be the more players, the longer the 774 00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:37,080 game takes. Yeah. 775 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,640 Even a quick game. That's That is fascinating. 776 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,360 That is fascinating. Wow. 777 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,280 I can't wait. I want to. 778 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:45,720 I want to play. I want to play. 779 00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:48,760 This is exciting. Nice. 780 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:55,480 So are there any future plans for larger gaming conventions or 781 00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:00,040 opportunities in WA that are in the works now that you know 782 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,040 about? You mean events being planned 783 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,760 and all or? Yeah, just you know, anything 784 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,280 talk because you mentioned is it Wagga Wagga, Waba, right, Waba, 785 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:11,920 Waba. I'm sorry, Waba. 786 00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:15,960 I just didn't know if if the community, if the amount of 787 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,880 gamers in WA were growing and that there was a possibility for 788 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,720 larger conventions coming to Perth say so that you knew 789 00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:26,760 about. Well, I mean, but it's simply. 790 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:28,200 As far as I know, there are none. 791 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:29,240 And here's something. Really. 792 00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:31,520 Interesting. There are a government funding 793 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:36,520 in the gaming industry here, but it is exclusively for video 794 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,360 games. They make it very clear that it 795 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,680 cannot be a board game. It cannot be a hybrid video 796 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,440 slash board game. It has to be board game home. 797 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:46,880 So. Wow. 798 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,200 So that's number one. And then even in terms of sort 799 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,440 of the arts funding, like I've tried to sort of, you know, 800 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,880 reach out about that. They're also like, this is not 801 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:58,880 art, you know, like in. Their definition. 802 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,080 Of art, sure. So, so there there is some 803 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,560 limitation in terms of funding. So as and until there is 804 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,880 acceptance of what board game means for those. 805 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:15,560 People right? I think it will still be a bit 806 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:17,720 limited in terms of the access here. 807 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,400 I think over E there are a lot more initiatives just because of 808 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,720 the large population of gamers and all that. 809 00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:27,920 And therefore access to funds is going to be easier and the 810 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:29,840 audiences are there and stuff like that. 811 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:34,920 But I can certainly say that in Perth, in WA, it is growing even 812 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:40,400 for the designers in WA, Like we keep finding new ones because I 813 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,400 organize the monthly meet up sessions here and we're always 814 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,040 like every now and then, hey, somebody new pops up and like 815 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:48,840 they're like, I've been doing this for five. 816 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:50,760 Years just in my. Where have you been? 817 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:52,120 Yeah, exactly. So. 818 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:54,840 So we're there, you know. We're in the dozens. 819 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,720 Right, the dozens. You are the dozens. 820 00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:02,640 I love that. So do you have I? 821 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,880 I probably already know the answer to this question, but I'm 822 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,120 going to ask it anyway. Do you have any, any plans, 823 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,560 tangible plans, not just dreams of coming to either the UK or 824 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,480 the United States, to some of these larger conventions to 825 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,520 introduce yourself, introduce Usoli to the gaming community, 826 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,520 everything like that. I definitely want to do that. 827 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,760 I don't know when that's a really good question. 828 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:31,760 And again, finances being one, sure, but I think it's also 829 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:36,960 trying to figure out ways of reaching people across the globe 830 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,880 without necessarily being there physically as a, you know, case 831 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:44,880 in point, solely actually got picked up by PAX East, right, 832 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,200 which is in America. Yes, yes, it is so. 833 00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:51,680 They have, I believe a first look section so. 834 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,040 Oh good. Then to of space fame did a 835 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,960 review of the game, right? And then someone from there saw 836 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,360 it, and then they're like, hey, this is really cool in terms of 837 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,000 how engaged the theme seems to be and all that. 838 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:05,080 Like, we want to feature it, right? 839 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:07,760 And so Sully is travelling to the US. 840 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,800 But not. Because it is so small, right? 841 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,080 But normally, yeah, not this time really. 842 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,960 I do hope to to make it one day because it is so fascinating to 843 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,320 see just the sheer size and scope of that. 844 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,920 I was actually in Germany a few months back at the Nuremberg Toy 845 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:25,160 Fair. So that's probably the. 846 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,760 Closest, OK, sure. But still, that's a significant 847 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,320 event. Yeah, it was OK. 848 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,200 I was trying to basically connect with potential retailers 849 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,080 and just, you know, potential partners to work with in Europe. 850 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,120 Again, this was a time where actually the game still wasn't, 851 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,000 you know, quite out. It wasn't out yet. 852 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,760 So I was still sort of, it wasn't a weird kind of situation 853 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,040 to be in this like this game hasn't come up, but hey, I'm 854 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:49,200 still here. To connect. 855 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,640 With people about it, especially as an unknown designer and stuff 856 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:55,400 like that. But yeah, look, I'm no stranger 857 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,080 to reaching out and connecting with people, so I hope to be 858 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:03,560 able to do that one day with the American war gaming community. 859 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,880 I think there's some exciting sort of things that I couldn't. 860 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:11,840 I can learn and explore and just connect and and and see how he's 861 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,880 in there work and hopefully bring some of that gear to Earth 862 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,200 Australia as well. So you definitely, if you 863 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,120 haven't already done this, you should probably reach out to 864 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:23,000 Pagan and Mosaic games and you know, in India because he's 865 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:24,560 coming to Gen. Con this year. 866 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,640 So he can at least help you figure out the finances of how 867 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,480 to get right. Like, so I can't even imagine. 868 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,360 My international travel has only ever been to England, so I can't 869 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,720 even imagine flying around the world. 870 00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:41,080 Like that's incredible. That's the dream, right? 871 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,760 I mean, that's a tagline for our whole podcast as we're trying to 872 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:45,920 unite players around the world. So that's it. 873 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,880 It's it's surprising how quickly I've gotten used to the time 874 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:53,520 zone. Different differentiate. 875 00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:55,640 Like that's a conversation I have with everybody. 876 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,240 So where are you? Yeah, you're, you know, you're 877 00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:00,320 this many hours this way or that way, right. 878 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,760 Whatever. So that's that's that's 879 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:03,520 incredible. Yeah. 880 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:05,280 Thank. Thank you. 881 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:07,960 Thank you for coming on. This was great. 882 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,480 I really, this was amazing. I look forward to more chats 883 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:14,120 with you as our relationship continues. 884 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,200 I can't wait to play you solely, that's just exciting. 885 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,080 Where can people find you on social media if they have 886 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,160 questions for you or they miss the campaign and they want to 887 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,280 get a copy after listening to this? 888 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,720 Sure, you can find me almost anywhere online these days. 889 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:30,080 Facebook. Not Twitter. 890 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,000 But you can find me not Twitter, because Twitter does not exist 891 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:33,920 at this point. But. 892 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,680 That's correct. A board game geek I'm I'm also 893 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,360 on there. If you search up with solely on 894 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,120 Board Game Geek and 1st something there, I'll be sure to 895 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:45,080 find it on Instagram as well. I think those are pretty much 896 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,440 the main ones that I have the time and entry to. 897 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:49,760 To question. But yeah. 898 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:51,920 Absolutely. Look up with Sully wherever you 899 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,960 find it just and you see my name, then you can just, you 900 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,040 know, send me a message. I'd be very happy tonight and on 901 00:46:58,040 --> 00:46:59,600 LinkedIn. I'm also on there today. 902 00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:03,200 OK. And that's that is Usoli is 903 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:09,480 USOLLI correct yes. So dude, y'all gotta go look 904 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,120 this up. This game is this game and now 905 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,600 that I've seen the box like see how small it is I mean at least 906 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,320 I can go. I can go an hour S to Saint 907 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,920 Louis hang out with Laura. She could teach me the game, so 908 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,200 I'll probably pressure her next week. 909 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,360 Nice for that nice Ahmad. Thank you. 910 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,240 Thank you so much, so much sincerely, guys, don't forget to 911 00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:33,960 like and smash that subscribe button. 912 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:39,960 Leave comments below for Amen myself, Spotify, YouTube guys, 913 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,000 you know, the YouTube channel is slowly making progress. 914 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,560 Spotify and all the other podcast channels are doing well. 915 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,280 So thanks and keep keep tuning in and I'm on. 916 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:49,880 Thanks again. Cool. 917 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:51,440 Thank you. Have a good day man. 918 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:52,960 See ya. All right.