Welcome to Maple to Maple, uniting players around the
world, a 30 minute exploration of TJ and Gareth 4 game
experiences from across both sides of the Atlantic.
Each episode, they share their thoughts and opinions on the
World of War games, including their favorite themes, games,
hot topics, and much, much more. Hey guys, and welcome to episode
76, Apostocracy. We're talking with Heather
Dixon, who is the designer of the upcoming game Apostocracy.
As always, I'm PJ. Unfortunately, Gareth's schedule
once again has kept taking him away from us, and he does extend
his apologies and his love to you all.
So thanks again for listening, guys.
And again with me today is Heather Dixon.
Heather, how are you? I am.
Good. How are you?
Good man. It I just saw you just a like a
week ago, right. So we were, we were both in
England for Cajun Con last week. Yes, which.
And it was so much fun. I'm so glad I got to go.
I was, I was really tickled. Thank you for coming.
It was nice to have fellow Americans.
It just, you know, it just, I don't know, I don't know if you
felt this way, but as as a visitor to their country, it
just, I don't know. It was kind of like a security
blanket, like, yeah, yeah. There's, well, a familiar face,
right? Right.
Right, So it's. All good, yeah.
I know it was a lot of fun and they were so welcoming and my
husband had a great time. I, you know, drag him along, but
he had as much fun as I did, so it's really good.
So again, thanks for coming with us to Cajun Con.
And I think you got to introduce several people to your upcoming
game Apostocracy. So tell us you've got a
launching Kickstarter when? Exactly one week from when this
releases, so April 23rd at 10:00 AM Central Standard Time, I will
be watching Apostocracy on Kickstarter.
Awesome. That is awesome.
So it's set in London 1851, which is kind of the heart of
Victorian England, right? Yes, Yeah.
So I love that period. I love, I love all the English
periods with regards to, you know, going way far back.
But I like the Victorian period in particular, in 1851 in
particular, because I knew I wanted to do to do a game where
you're using titled individuals to kind of introduce you and you
have to make connections in order to kind of rise up and
become the season's favorite. So I can do my whole spiel and
tell you about the game. Some people know what I'm
talking about, but I felt like Victorian time was really good,
like even better than Regency because there was so much
industry happening and people were starting to rise up on
merits outside of just birth. They were you know because of
investing and and you know they're railways and so forth.
So I felt like there was more opportunity there with the game
to, yeah, kind of in these that concept.
So just in case any of our American listeners haven't
watched Bridgerton, yeah, and don't understand, when you talk
about seasons, describe that in give us a little context on how
the seasons what did, what did that mean for the English?
Yeah, the season. There was a social season that
happened in London and it kind of moved around because it had
to do when the Lords and Commons was sitting, when they had to go
to London from their country estates and sit and vote and do
all that sort of thing in the springtime.
And Queen Victoria is actually the one that kind of determined
each year when that was going to be, but it just usually was in
the spring. They like to be done before it
got super hot in the summer so they could go back to their
estates because it was much more pleasant out there.
But so the social season when everyone had to come, they
brought their whole families and so the wives wanted to socialize
and there were all sorts of teas and races and balls and events
that the this is obviously not everybody.
This is the Ton or the Bonton, which was kind of like our upper
crust a Lister kind of people that would be the kind of subset
we're talking about in that period of time, a very small
percentage, but they were titled generally and they were able to
take part in the events of the season.
So the main it's the main kind of objective for a ruling family
or a noble family coming to London right, is to find an
appropriate husband or wife for their children, right?
That often time was, but I didn't want to really focus on
that. So in 1851, London, that's when
my game is set right. Basically, you're coming to town
the behest of your titled host. They're launching you into the
events of the season, using their influence to launch you so
that you can attend all the events and try to get more
influence and become the season's favorite.
So we don't have, like, marriage as a one condition in this game.
We're just going to parties, having fun and trying to be
named like the belle of the ball, the season's favorite and
that sort of thing. So, so when you're when you play
in the game, right you you take, you take on the role of someone
who's been invited by a family or are you a child in one of the
families that are going? You're invited.
You're invited to town. You're at the age where you
would become having your coming out and going to London for the
first time and attending all the events, and so you're invited by
a titled host. They're the ones that are
getting you access to all the events of the season and you're
going to try to make connections and meet as many people with as
high titles as you can and do all sorts of things like collect
art. You get silhouette miniatures,
portraits. You go to tea rooms and you
collect secrets. You go to the ballroom and you
make those connections. You go the parlor, where you're
actually using a starting hand that you're using for influence.
You're curating that because at the end of the season after that
4th week, they we meet in the parlor for a trick taking game
of West. Yeah.
So that that's one of the unique things about now I guess for our
listeners. So I played, tested this several
times. You and I go back, I had to look
at my notes and I still have my notes for the first time I play
tested this. It was August 4th of 2022 at
Gen. Con and and it was.
It has hit so many iterations of the game, but it's like this
worker placement. It's quintessential worker
placement, but you somehow managed to incorporate the trick
taking whist game. Which for those, for those who
played Obsession, 'cause I have to somehow mention Obsession in
every episode. So in Obsession you one of the
activities you host on your tiles is a game of Wist.
But what I really enjoyed about this game is you actually kind
of play Wist, which I had never played before.
How much research did you do on that particular card game going
into? This.
I can't say that it's really just loosely based on Wist
because Wist has very like so many variations which are super
interesting and fun. I love trick taking games, which
is why I wanted to incorporate that 'cause I also like worker
placement and that's why I wanted to kind of bring the two
together. But I basically boiled it down
to the a real basic trick taking game, just because a lot of
people aren't familiar with them or so it's something that they
can kind of introduce them to the concept.
But I have done a lot of research.
I'm actually putting together a booklet of Wist in its various
forms, as well as a some other Victorian parlor games that I'm
going to have a booklet for one of the pledge levels, an
accessory so to speak. But so yeah, I was going to ask
you about that in the project for the Kickstarter, Is there
going to be either as a stretch goal or maybe as a a later game
in a couple of years? Like just a an aristocracy take
on Wist as a game by itself. Are you thinking about doing
that as an add on? Are you thinking about doing
that as a stretch goal? Yeah, it's.
Actually, I do have that in the We have something called the
Wist Apostocracy Wist Box, which includes all of the cards you
need. So in our I have cards that look
like normal cards. I will tell you, I'll tell
everyone one of the things that's unique about our deck.
There's no King because Queen Victoria is on the throne, so
Queen is our high and we have Prince Jack 1098 and so forth.
And also we are playing with Aces Low in my particular, but
that's because Queen Victoria is the Queen bee.
She's at the top of the social Beehive and apsocracy.
So I am putting together a A Whist box that has that booklet
with various variations of whist as well as other Victorian
parlor games. In addition, there'll be some
like foil artist playing cards, like 2 decks because you often
need 2 decks to play and there'll be decks you can play
with like any game with. Yeah, I mean, you know, Poker
Twist would have a bridge, but they will have that queen as the
high as has. A high card.
As the highest so. So I I think in doing my
research for the trip to our trip to England last last two
weeks if I'm not mistaken did did so Albert Victoria's
husband? Did he die in 1850 or 60?
Do you he? No.
He was. It was closer to 60.
It was the late. 50s so presumably in the time of
apostocracy, he's still alive, but it definitely after after he
dies. Granted, she was the queen, I
get that. But like, she because she
mourned for 35 years or something.
It was it was really, really fascinating. 1 facet of the game
that I think would be interesting to our listeners.
It was interesting to me too. Is the miniatures.
Yes, they're not. Yeah, the Yeah, they're.
They're no like one of the things you do.
It's like a set collection where you get miniatures, isn't it?
Oh, you're talking about the art?
Yeah, the gala. Yeah, yeah.
Can you tell me, tell me a little bit about that, 'cause I
noticed in some of the museums in London that that was a thing.
Yeah, I took lots of pictures so 'cause I did go to the museums
as well. So we are commissioning art in
the gallery. You start with a silhouette,
which would have been the most attainable forms of kind of
capturing someone's likeness at the time.
As a matter of fact, it was usually cut from paper when
you're doing a silhouette, and often times they would, you
know, young ladies and sometimes even young gentlemen would learn
to do them themselves and do them at home.
So they were the most accessible version for available to the
most people. After that we have the
miniatures, which is going to be often on a ceramic that's
painted and it's small and it's something that you usually can
carry about in your pocket or maybe wear in a Locket or have
it sitting very small on the desk.
So they're also less expensive and they were a little more
attainable, but they certainly weren't available to everybody.
So the miniature and then what you probably saw also because I
saw them a lot, were cameos, which are brooches, which are
players pieces that are going up the beehive.
Each player has one, the bee brooches, that is the reference
to cameos. So they're kind of they're
actually, you know. So you mentioned you mentioned
beehive. This is a great segue.
There's this. Really cool.
It's very unique. I don't think I've seen it in
any other board game. Is is this this beehive, this
giant beehive, which if anyone's looks at pictures of apostocracy
as people are play testing it, that's what they're seeing.
Can you tell us about like, the beat, the inspiration behind the
beehive? What is the beehive?
And then how does it work in the game?
OK, so it actually is what first got me thinking about the theme
for this game. Initially it is a there was a
lithograph or an etching that was in a lot of publications in
the mid 1800s and actually there was 1 gentleman I think that
kind of did it first, but then all the other you know, papers
piled on and did their version of it.
But it was George Crookshank and he was the illustrator that did
it. And it basically had a beehive
with Queen Victoria at the top. And then it had the various
titles of their society from Duke underneath Duke and Duchess
would be underneath the Queen all then all the way down to
Barron. And then it went all the way
down like through society with the various rankings all the way
to like the chimney sweeps. So it was way, way more levels
than I have on my beehive because my beehive, we're just
going to events and we're in the tons.
So we're trying to get to Queen Victoria's ball.
She would have a fancy dress ball Her and Albert every year
they would host kind of at the end of the season, so.
And she went all out in costume as well.
So yeah, so that's where I got inspired.
I was like, I want to be up at the top there trying to climb my
way up to the ball. And that's where the first idea
came about. But then obviously I knew that
Whist was such a huge part of their culture and it was trick
taking. And it would also offer me that
opportunity to incorporate 2 things I really like, which are
work replacement and trick taking games.
So. You did that Lovely.
I I was, I was really impressed, 'cause it the first time I
played Test, I was like, wait, I got to do what?
Like, I understand trick taking. But I I had a really hard time.
And then I was like, Oh my gosh, this is just an elegant blend of
worker placement and trick taking in a way I've not seen
before. So I'm really looking.
I'm looking forward to that. That's pretty cool.
So I'm. I'm reading about.
I'm. I'm listening to you talking.
I'm looking at Crickshank. So apparently he illustrated
some of Charles Dickens novels. I.
Did not know that. No, that's cool, right?
That. Is very.
Cool. Yeah 'cause we went to the
Charles Dickens Museum when we were in London, 'cause I'm a fan
of Charles Dickens and didn't didn't see any mention of that.
But yeah, so that's cool. I noticed some.
I noticed there were miniatures in the Queen's Gallery near
Buckham Up. Did you make it to the Queen's
Gallery? I.
Didn't I went to the Victoria and Albert Museum?
Oh, you did so well. Well, tell us about that a
little, a little bit. Well, OK, so in 1851, which is
the the year of my game, it there was the grand exhibition
of the Crystal Palace. It was this huge, huge event
that kind of became later kind of I I suspect what we would
equate it to would be a World's Fair first thing of its kind.
It's England and it's all of the countries associated with
England. And they had all sorts of items
on display in this giant Crystal Palace that was basically this
glass structure that was enormous and it was all Albert's
doing. It was his idea.
He wanted England to show off all of the things that they had
and all of the areas that they were advancing and that sort of
thing. So it was a very huge event and
some of those things are, I mean, they had a lot of things
in their collections. So now there's a Victorian
Albert Museum, which there's other things in there as well.
However, there's a lot of the things that were on display in
1851 at the Crystal Palace, so I thought that was pretty cool
'cause total time into my game. Right.
No. How much?
So you're at the Victoria Albert Museum.
How much? How many elements of apostocracy
did you see, whether intentionally or unintentionally
you're at the museum you like. That's in my game and that's in
like. I will say I thought out that
time period, 'cause they have it all kind of according to time
periods. And I did go visit more, but I
went directly to Queen Victoria's, you know, Reign,
basically, and started there. They had model, like a
architectural kind of model of the Crystal Palace.
They had a painting that I had seen, you know in my research in
books and that and online that is of the family when they
opened the event inside the Crystal Palace and there's all
of the like ton members essentially surrounding them and
it was painted to commemorate the time and it was this large
painting. It was sitting right there and
so it was really cool to get to see that as well.
And I but I love that period. I love all of the history in the
Victoria Albert Museum. It was really cool.
So I kept going and I went through all the decades and
checked it out. Also of course, went to the
British Museum too. Of course it had more of the
older things, but it was. I've been there before, but it's
always a good place to go. It's wonderful.
Absolutely. So you've mentioned it a couple
times. I remember it in the game, but
just in case, no, you know, anyone's curious.
So the the Ton, The Ton, Is that how it's turned out?
So what is the Ton and how does it fit into the game?
So the bon ton, which is a French word for like the most
elegant, highest titled and most elite sort of people.
That's where the the term comes from and society and that is the
people that you are meeting in the game and trying to become
friends with. So it's titled Individuals and
or maybe wealthy land owners and that sort of thing too, but it's
basically where your playground is, that in that beehive you're
going to all the events they're going to, you're going to the
races at Ascot, you're going to balloon launch at Vauxhall
Garden and you're going to the March and s s dinner and the
salons and Tees. So that is the space the game
kind of takes place in. And there's kind of a there's
almost a kind of a hand management aspect of the game
because you're building your hand right in preparation for
the final. But there's.
Are there still? Are there still multiple trick
taking phases or is it just? No.
OK, see, because I've not seen the most current you've.
Done. You've done a few very yeah
iterations, but not on real recently.
So disregard everything I just said, guys, and listen to
Heather now. Well.
Gives you more opportunity to build that hand out.
OK. So in the game during the, you
start with the starting hand, you have a low card or a low
number of each suit. So clubs, fade, diamond, heart,
and those represent titles, so there's a hierarchy to them.
So hearts are our highest, They're the Duke or Duchess.
As close as you get to royalty before you are in royalty.
And the lowest is a club, that's our Baron or Baroness.
And so you can always use a higher title if you know
someone. They're people that are opening
doors for you essentially. And so if something requires a.
Heart or a Duke or a Duchess to open the door, that's the only
suit you can play or or you basically discard from your hand
in order to do the event. But if it's for instance a club,
you can use Club, Spade, Diamond or Heart because they're all
higher than the Baron or Baroness, so they can open those
doors just as easily. So you're trying to make
connections, the higher ones or you know, the ones that are
ranked heart or diamond being the higher ones followed by
Spade and Club. However, in the final trick
taking game, we have a trump suit that is diamonds because
you were diamond of the first water was a term they used.
OK, all so kind of where it came from.
So when you have an opportunity to go to the parlor during the
weeks, you're going to be creating your hand and getting
better cards for both influencing game and also for
that final trick, taking game and also shedding some of those
early low cards that you don't want anymore.
But sometimes you have to make a choice, because Queen Victoria's
are highest and the Queens are off on their own.
But then in the parlor you have the Princess, the jacks,
attends, and then all the diamonds that are not already in
someone's starting hand. So they're all the better cards
and you can visit there and gain one, and also at that time you
can trash one of your other cards.
But sometimes you have to make a choice because it might be a 7
of diamonds sitting there and then there might be, you know, a
Prince of clubs, which is high from a trick taking thing, but
not for that influencing game. And then you might have like a
heart that's a a Jack, right? So you're like, do I need that
heart right now because I really need to open these doors or do I
just want to go deep in diamonds?
Because that's gonna serve me the best, because at the end of
the game, depending on player count, there's anywhere from
7:00 to 9 tricks, and each trick is worth 2 Victoria points.
What is the player? What's the player count for the
game? 1:00 to 4:00.
One to four, OK, we're. Working on this other version.
So what about if we've got we've got gamers who are either they
don't, they don't like trick taking or they're not
comfortable with trick taking. Is it possible to play the game
enough and accumulate enough points that that the whist it
can mitigate a poor performance in the trick taking whist at the
end? Yeah.
It is. You don't.
I mean, and chances are you have.
Sometimes people take no tricks, but even if you're not terribly
prepared and you maybe just go get one or two cards sometimes
you can at least gain it 1 trick.
And if there's four players, even if you're not getting a
lot, they probably are dividing up those tricks between
themselves. So the number of points they're
getting isn't, you know, so much higher.
However, you can be doing a lot of things instead of going to
the parlor. You know that will gain you
Victoria points during the game, right?
So, and I do call them Victoria Points, not victory.
Points, Victoria points. I love that.
That's so thematic it's great. So the other, I guess the other
question is, is the opposite true?
If for whatever reason, my strategy or execution and worker
placement, it just doesn't go my way, can I make up for lost
ground by winning more tricks at the end?
You can. You have to do more than one
thing. That one thing sometimes will
include going, you know, moderately or pretty heavy into
the parlor to get a better hand, but you're going to be doing
other things too during the the season.
So you're going, you can't do everything, there's too much
going on, so you kind of have to choose which ones are most
attainable to you. And also each of the characters,
they have a host that's giving them an asymmetric bonus or or
starter starting place. So that actually helps them and
helps a new player kind of know when there's so much in front of
them, kind of have an idea of maybe what they might go try
first. OK, but I am doing.
Yeah. And so I remember early on
prototype testing, you actually had real brooches for the player
pieces. It looks like.
It looks like you now have some sort of a You're still using
brooches, right? But they're.
They're, they're, yeah, they're. Or they're brooch like.
Brooch. Like they don't actually attach
to you, although that would be really cool and they are
plastic. But I did have some miniatures
made too, and this is what I did, some miniatures and to kind
of see what those molds would look like when I did the resin
for the game. And I got them back and of
course they're Gray, you know, they're not painted colorful.
Like those aren't the ones I have in my prototype right now.
But I decided I want this look special.
I'd never miniature painted before, but I am an artist, so I
painted a lot. But I was like, I wonder if I
could gold leaf this, these miniature approaches.
And I did. And it worked.
Hey, yeah. So I did like a little color on
them. And then I did a gold leaf and
it was really fun. But it's just for just for fun.
But anyway, so now people that do like miniature painting, you
can gold leaf, silver leaf, copper leaf, or whatever kind of
leaf you want to onto those minis.
If you really want a metallic effect, that's.
Beautiful. But that was just me playing
around. So last week when Gareth and I
recorded together that was that was crazy.
If y'all, if y'all haven't go back and listen to episode 75.
Gareth and I were in the same room.
It was just you know sitting at a table chatting.
We talked about doing. I think you heard it because I I
think you sent me a message but we were like we wanted to
envision our it's my idea is to envision some sort of a a
trilogy either the the the Regency and then apostocracy,
which is Victorian age, and then obsession.
Or start with apostocracy, go with obsession and then a third
game that kind of early and and that would just be a really cool
thematic day of playing. My wife had suggested marrying
Mr. Darcy, 'cause that is Regency, you know.
But it's Jane Austen's. Not my favorite but but
whatever. But yeah, I just think it's
really cool, 'cause I think your game is a beautiful compliment
to obsession and I think they both would play really well
together, you know? Yeah, one before the other.
They. Sure, they're they're really
different but they they obviously the thematically and
also you're dealing with the ton obviously, I mean and you're
trying to make your way in that and make a name for yourself.
So they're very much somewhere in that way too.
So even though it's later Victorian, yeah, right.
And it's also a different, so it's a different role, right,
because in in pistography you're being invited by a noble family
to come to the season where is in obsession, you are a noble
family trying to manage your estate and host, host, all these
things. So I could envision, I could
envision playing apostocracy. And then in obsession we have
like casual guests and prestigiousness.
Your character from Obsession from Apostocracy could be a
casual guest card, yeah? So Dan, if you're listening, you
need to get another and work out some sort of AI.
Don't know. I thought of the trilogy too.
OK, so you're starting up because you're just making your
come out. You're not getting married.
You're just going to the parties and trying to get, we can see
this favorite. Then you go off to the estate
where you know people do get married and maybe and and that
sort of thing. And then the final game, 'cause
I don't know. I know it's Victorian, so we
could just say it's later. Victorian, sure, but deadly
dowagers. So you're married and now you
want to kill your husband off so you can.
Yes. You can like, marry up to the
next title. So they're.
Through 'cause you're trying to marry the Prince right at the
end of. That's the whole point of deadly
dowaging. Oh, oh, that's a good.
That's a good yeah. Dramatically, it just works.
No, that's that's great. So we need to get Apostocracy it
at your tables. You need to go to Kickstarter,
10:00 AM Central Standard Time, April 23rd.
That is a week from today when you're listening to the episode,
if you're listening to it live. And then you can have the
Victorian era trilogy of games on your table.
Yeah, there you go. How about that?
That's cool. Is there anything else we want
to? You want to mention Heather
about the game, about the design or the artwork, Who did the art
for the. Game I'm the artist you are.
The designer what? Yeah, so I am an art artist, an
art director by trade. I said I was a game designer by
hobby, but now I am a game designer in truth as well.
And so basically it's part of my process.
I draw constantly, so if I reiterate and I need some more
characters or components or cards, I just draw more.
I have so many versions and I at some point I need to post on
social media my, like early versions, 'cause it's funny to
see them now compare it like it was kind of a rougher sketch
kind of a thing. And it I need to put the like
early versus the now kind of pictures up there.
But yeah, so I did the art and I that's what I love doing so.
How did I not know that? Did I?
Did I not know what did I did I know that and I forgot.
Oh gosh. Well, if I knew it and I forgot,
I apologize. Otherwise that's amazing cause
the artwork is fantastic and I think they'll we'll leave it
there. I think that's good.
Unless there's any. Yeah.
So go ahead. I'll just mention that I I'm not
the best with all social media, but I am on Instagram and it is
at Apistocracy. And apistocracy is essentially
aristocracy, but AP instead of an R because we're climbing the
social BI. So yeah, at apistocracy is me.
If you want to check out some of that art and some of the travels
and that sort of thing there, and also the journey I've made
from those early iterations and meeting you all the way to where
we are tonight. So, absolutely.
And I guess to say, well, the the motto is to keep your
temper. Yes, that was something you
would see on a Whist token. With Whist tokens were very
prevalent at the time and they were used in playing the game.
Whist and Queen Victoria's likeness will be on it.
And it said keep your temper. Which is funny 'cause she
notoriously kind of had a temper.
She did. She.
Did. And for those of you listening,
I am wearing AT shirt that Heather made and gave on to
myself and my wife and it says keep your temper.
So I wore it today for this very purpose.
So remember to keep your temper with that.
I would say thank you for listening again, Gareth.
You'll be back next week presumably where we will be
episode 77. We've got some more designers
coming up, couple of games that Gareth and I are play testing
right now. So Heather, thank you for
joining us. Thanks for your patience with me
today. Oh no, it was wonderful.
Thank you very much. All right.
Thanks, guys. Thanks everyone for listening.
Please subscribe. And as always, we love to hear
your thoughts and ideas, so make sure to leave those in the
comments. And don't forget, you can also
chat with us both on Instagram at meeple to Meeple.