1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,840 Welcome to Maple to Maple, uniting players around the 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:06,600 world, a 30 minute exploration of TJ and Gareth 4 game 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,480 experiences from across both sides of the Atlantic. 4 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:12,720 Each episode, they share their thoughts and opinions on the 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,280 World of War games, including their favorite themes, games, 6 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:21,520 hot topics, and much, much more. Hey guys, and welcome to episode 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:26,280 76, Apostocracy. We're talking with Heather 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,920 Dixon, who is the designer of the upcoming game Apostocracy. 9 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:34,200 As always, I'm PJ. Unfortunately, Gareth's schedule 10 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:39,560 once again has kept taking him away from us, and he does extend 11 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,560 his apologies and his love to you all. 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,400 So thanks again for listening, guys. 13 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,240 And again with me today is Heather Dixon. 14 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:49,160 Heather, how are you? I am. 15 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:51,000 Good. How are you? 16 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,840 Good man. It I just saw you just a like a 17 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,320 week ago, right. So we were, we were both in 18 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,720 England for Cajun Con last week. Yes, which. 19 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,200 And it was so much fun. I'm so glad I got to go. 20 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,520 I was, I was really tickled. Thank you for coming. 21 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,760 It was nice to have fellow Americans. 22 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,480 It just, you know, it just, I don't know, I don't know if you 23 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,280 felt this way, but as as a visitor to their country, it 24 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,360 just, I don't know. It was kind of like a security 25 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,600 blanket, like, yeah, yeah. There's, well, a familiar face, 26 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:23,160 right? Right. 27 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:26,240 Right, So it's. All good, yeah. 28 00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:30,480 I know it was a lot of fun and they were so welcoming and my 29 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,280 husband had a great time. I, you know, drag him along, but 30 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,280 he had as much fun as I did, so it's really good. 31 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,800 So again, thanks for coming with us to Cajun Con. 32 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:45,640 And I think you got to introduce several people to your upcoming 33 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:50,160 game Apostocracy. So tell us you've got a 34 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,960 launching Kickstarter when? Exactly one week from when this 35 00:01:54,960 --> 00:02:02,600 releases, so April 23rd at 10:00 AM Central Standard Time, I will 36 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,840 be watching Apostocracy on Kickstarter. 37 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,000 Awesome. That is awesome. 38 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,320 So it's set in London 1851, which is kind of the heart of 39 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,120 Victorian England, right? Yes, Yeah. 40 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:20,920 So I love that period. I love, I love all the English 41 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,880 periods with regards to, you know, going way far back. 42 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,160 But I like the Victorian period in particular, in 1851 in 43 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,640 particular, because I knew I wanted to do to do a game where 44 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:38,960 you're using titled individuals to kind of introduce you and you 45 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,440 have to make connections in order to kind of rise up and 46 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,000 become the season's favorite. So I can do my whole spiel and 47 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:45,680 tell you about the game. Some people know what I'm 48 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,800 talking about, but I felt like Victorian time was really good, 49 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,600 like even better than Regency because there was so much 50 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,200 industry happening and people were starting to rise up on 51 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,560 merits outside of just birth. They were you know because of 52 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,280 investing and and you know they're railways and so forth. 53 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,360 So I felt like there was more opportunity there with the game 54 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,800 to, yeah, kind of in these that concept. 55 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,160 So just in case any of our American listeners haven't 56 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:19,000 watched Bridgerton, yeah, and don't understand, when you talk 57 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:24,040 about seasons, describe that in give us a little context on how 58 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,680 the seasons what did, what did that mean for the English? 59 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:32,000 Yeah, the season. There was a social season that 60 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,840 happened in London and it kind of moved around because it had 61 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,080 to do when the Lords and Commons was sitting, when they had to go 62 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,760 to London from their country estates and sit and vote and do 63 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,440 all that sort of thing in the springtime. 64 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,760 And Queen Victoria is actually the one that kind of determined 65 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,760 each year when that was going to be, but it just usually was in 66 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:53,800 the spring. They like to be done before it 67 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,920 got super hot in the summer so they could go back to their 68 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,280 estates because it was much more pleasant out there. 69 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,760 But so the social season when everyone had to come, they 70 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:06,120 brought their whole families and so the wives wanted to socialize 71 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:13,320 and there were all sorts of teas and races and balls and events 72 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,399 that the this is obviously not everybody. 73 00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:22,200 This is the Ton or the Bonton, which was kind of like our upper 74 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:29,280 crust a Lister kind of people that would be the kind of subset 75 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:32,920 we're talking about in that period of time, a very small 76 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:39,000 percentage, but they were titled generally and they were able to 77 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,320 take part in the events of the season. 78 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:50,400 So the main it's the main kind of objective for a ruling family 79 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:56,240 or a noble family coming to London right, is to find an 80 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,880 appropriate husband or wife for their children, right? 81 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,320 That often time was, but I didn't want to really focus on 82 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,320 that. So in 1851, London, that's when 83 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,400 my game is set right. Basically, you're coming to town 84 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,920 the behest of your titled host. They're launching you into the 85 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,760 events of the season, using their influence to launch you so 86 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:20,320 that you can attend all the events and try to get more 87 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,440 influence and become the season's favorite. 88 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,600 So we don't have, like, marriage as a one condition in this game. 89 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,760 We're just going to parties, having fun and trying to be 90 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,760 named like the belle of the ball, the season's favorite and 91 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,760 that sort of thing. So, so when you're when you play 92 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,040 in the game, right you you take, you take on the role of someone 93 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,600 who's been invited by a family or are you a child in one of the 94 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:45,600 families that are going? You're invited. 95 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,960 You're invited to town. You're at the age where you 96 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,600 would become having your coming out and going to London for the 97 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:55,200 first time and attending all the events, and so you're invited by 98 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,120 a titled host. They're the ones that are 99 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:02,640 getting you access to all the events of the season and you're 100 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,600 going to try to make connections and meet as many people with as 101 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:12,640 high titles as you can and do all sorts of things like collect 102 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:14,720 art. You get silhouette miniatures, 103 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:16,920 portraits. You go to tea rooms and you 104 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,120 collect secrets. You go to the ballroom and you 105 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,760 make those connections. You go the parlor, where you're 106 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:27,320 actually using a starting hand that you're using for influence. 107 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,120 You're curating that because at the end of the season after that 108 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,840 4th week, they we meet in the parlor for a trick taking game 109 00:06:33,840 --> 00:06:35,400 of West. Yeah. 110 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,120 So that that's one of the unique things about now I guess for our 111 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,640 listeners. So I played, tested this several 112 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,080 times. You and I go back, I had to look 113 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,560 at my notes and I still have my notes for the first time I play 114 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:53,840 tested this. It was August 4th of 2022 at 115 00:06:53,840 --> 00:06:56,600 Gen. Con and and it was. 116 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:03,560 It has hit so many iterations of the game, but it's like this 117 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:05,920 worker placement. It's quintessential worker 118 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,840 placement, but you somehow managed to incorporate the trick 119 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:15,320 taking whist game. Which for those, for those who 120 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,120 played Obsession, 'cause I have to somehow mention Obsession in 121 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,000 every episode. So in Obsession you one of the 122 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,360 activities you host on your tiles is a game of Wist. 123 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,400 But what I really enjoyed about this game is you actually kind 124 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:33,120 of play Wist, which I had never played before. 125 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,040 How much research did you do on that particular card game going 126 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:37,680 into? This. 127 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,960 I can't say that it's really just loosely based on Wist 128 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:46,680 because Wist has very like so many variations which are super 129 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,480 interesting and fun. I love trick taking games, which 130 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,000 is why I wanted to incorporate that 'cause I also like worker 131 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,120 placement and that's why I wanted to kind of bring the two 132 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,320 together. But I basically boiled it down 133 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:02,840 to the a real basic trick taking game, just because a lot of 134 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,360 people aren't familiar with them or so it's something that they 135 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,240 can kind of introduce them to the concept. 136 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,360 But I have done a lot of research. 137 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,480 I'm actually putting together a booklet of Wist in its various 138 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,960 forms, as well as a some other Victorian parlor games that I'm 139 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:24,080 going to have a booklet for one of the pledge levels, an 140 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,040 accessory so to speak. But so yeah, I was going to ask 141 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,720 you about that in the project for the Kickstarter, Is there 142 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:35,240 going to be either as a stretch goal or maybe as a a later game 143 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,559 in a couple of years? Like just a an aristocracy take 144 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,600 on Wist as a game by itself. Are you thinking about doing 145 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,120 that as an add on? Are you thinking about doing 146 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,160 that as a stretch goal? Yeah, it's. 147 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,360 Actually, I do have that in the We have something called the 148 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:59,880 Wist Apostocracy Wist Box, which includes all of the cards you 149 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:02,720 need. So in our I have cards that look 150 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:04,360 like normal cards. I will tell you, I'll tell 151 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,320 everyone one of the things that's unique about our deck. 152 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,320 There's no King because Queen Victoria is on the throne, so 153 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:16,240 Queen is our high and we have Prince Jack 1098 and so forth. 154 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:21,040 And also we are playing with Aces Low in my particular, but 155 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,400 that's because Queen Victoria is the Queen bee. 156 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,240 She's at the top of the social Beehive and apsocracy. 157 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:33,240 So I am putting together a A Whist box that has that booklet 158 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:38,480 with various variations of whist as well as other Victorian 159 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,640 parlor games. In addition, there'll be some 160 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:45,280 like foil artist playing cards, like 2 decks because you often 161 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,680 need 2 decks to play and there'll be decks you can play 162 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:50,800 with like any game with. Yeah, I mean, you know, Poker 163 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:56,880 Twist would have a bridge, but they will have that queen as the 164 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,040 high as has. A high card. 165 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:03,640 As the highest so. So I I think in doing my 166 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,160 research for the trip to our trip to England last last two 167 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:14,240 weeks if I'm not mistaken did did so Albert Victoria's 168 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:18,720 husband? Did he die in 1850 or 60? 169 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:19,400 Do you he? No. 170 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,360 He was. It was closer to 60. 171 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,840 It was the late. 50s so presumably in the time of 172 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,240 apostocracy, he's still alive, but it definitely after after he 173 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,080 dies. Granted, she was the queen, I 174 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,680 get that. But like, she because she 175 00:10:32,680 --> 00:10:35,360 mourned for 35 years or something. 176 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:40,120 It was it was really, really fascinating. 1 facet of the game 177 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:41,600 that I think would be interesting to our listeners. 178 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,400 It was interesting to me too. Is the miniatures. 179 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,360 Yes, they're not. Yeah, the Yeah, they're. 180 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,680 They're no like one of the things you do. 181 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:54,280 It's like a set collection where you get miniatures, isn't it? 182 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:55,640 Oh, you're talking about the art? 183 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:57,560 Yeah, the gala. Yeah, yeah. 184 00:10:57,680 --> 00:10:59,960 Can you tell me, tell me a little bit about that, 'cause I 185 00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:03,680 noticed in some of the museums in London that that was a thing. 186 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:08,320 Yeah, I took lots of pictures so 'cause I did go to the museums 187 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,360 as well. So we are commissioning art in 188 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,320 the gallery. You start with a silhouette, 189 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,800 which would have been the most attainable forms of kind of 190 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:18,280 capturing someone's likeness at the time. 191 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,560 As a matter of fact, it was usually cut from paper when 192 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:28,320 you're doing a silhouette, and often times they would, you 193 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,960 know, young ladies and sometimes even young gentlemen would learn 194 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,040 to do them themselves and do them at home. 195 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,120 So they were the most accessible version for available to the 196 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:39,960 most people. After that we have the 197 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:44,280 miniatures, which is going to be often on a ceramic that's 198 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,000 painted and it's small and it's something that you usually can 199 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:53,200 carry about in your pocket or maybe wear in a Locket or have 200 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:54,680 it sitting very small on the desk. 201 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,800 So they're also less expensive and they were a little more 202 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,680 attainable, but they certainly weren't available to everybody. 203 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,800 So the miniature and then what you probably saw also because I 204 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,120 saw them a lot, were cameos, which are brooches, which are 205 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,000 players pieces that are going up the beehive. 206 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,640 Each player has one, the bee brooches, that is the reference 207 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,800 to cameos. So they're kind of they're 208 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,280 actually, you know. So you mentioned you mentioned 209 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:24,880 beehive. This is a great segue. 210 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:26,720 There's this. Really cool. 211 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,320 It's very unique. I don't think I've seen it in 212 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,640 any other board game. Is is this this beehive, this 213 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:37,400 giant beehive, which if anyone's looks at pictures of apostocracy 214 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,160 as people are play testing it, that's what they're seeing. 215 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,880 Can you tell us about like, the beat, the inspiration behind the 216 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:45,680 beehive? What is the beehive? 217 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,040 And then how does it work in the game? 218 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,840 OK, so it actually is what first got me thinking about the theme 219 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:56,280 for this game. Initially it is a there was a 220 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:00,360 lithograph or an etching that was in a lot of publications in 221 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,720 the mid 1800s and actually there was 1 gentleman I think that 222 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,680 kind of did it first, but then all the other you know, papers 223 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,600 piled on and did their version of it. 224 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:15,480 But it was George Crookshank and he was the illustrator that did 225 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,760 it. And it basically had a beehive 226 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,640 with Queen Victoria at the top. And then it had the various 227 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:26,520 titles of their society from Duke underneath Duke and Duchess 228 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,000 would be underneath the Queen all then all the way down to 229 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,040 Barron. And then it went all the way 230 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,200 down like through society with the various rankings all the way 231 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:38,080 to like the chimney sweeps. So it was way, way more levels 232 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,520 than I have on my beehive because my beehive, we're just 233 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,560 going to events and we're in the tons. 234 00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:45,960 So we're trying to get to Queen Victoria's ball. 235 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,000 She would have a fancy dress ball Her and Albert every year 236 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,400 they would host kind of at the end of the season, so. 237 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,520 And she went all out in costume as well. 238 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,160 So yeah, so that's where I got inspired. 239 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,240 I was like, I want to be up at the top there trying to climb my 240 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:07,320 way up to the ball. And that's where the first idea 241 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,480 came about. But then obviously I knew that 242 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,040 Whist was such a huge part of their culture and it was trick 243 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,440 taking. And it would also offer me that 244 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,520 opportunity to incorporate 2 things I really like, which are 245 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:20,960 work replacement and trick taking games. 246 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,080 So. You did that Lovely. 247 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,800 I I was, I was really impressed, 'cause it the first time I 248 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,320 played Test, I was like, wait, I got to do what? 249 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,280 Like, I understand trick taking. But I I had a really hard time. 250 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:38,120 And then I was like, Oh my gosh, this is just an elegant blend of 251 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,360 worker placement and trick taking in a way I've not seen 252 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,680 before. So I'm really looking. 253 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:45,200 I'm looking forward to that. That's pretty cool. 254 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:46,640 So I'm. I'm reading about. 255 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,120 I'm. I'm listening to you talking. 256 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,720 I'm looking at Crickshank. So apparently he illustrated 257 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,160 some of Charles Dickens novels. I. 258 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,400 Did not know that. No, that's cool, right? 259 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:56,640 That. Is very. 260 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:58,440 Cool. Yeah 'cause we went to the 261 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,080 Charles Dickens Museum when we were in London, 'cause I'm a fan 262 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,440 of Charles Dickens and didn't didn't see any mention of that. 263 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,400 But yeah, so that's cool. I noticed some. 264 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,440 I noticed there were miniatures in the Queen's Gallery near 265 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,080 Buckham Up. Did you make it to the Queen's 266 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:13,600 Gallery? I. 267 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,320 Didn't I went to the Victoria and Albert Museum? 268 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,240 Oh, you did so well. Well, tell us about that a 269 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,960 little, a little bit. Well, OK, so in 1851, which is 270 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,320 the the year of my game, it there was the grand exhibition 271 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,680 of the Crystal Palace. It was this huge, huge event 272 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,920 that kind of became later kind of I I suspect what we would 273 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,040 equate it to would be a World's Fair first thing of its kind. 274 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,320 It's England and it's all of the countries associated with 275 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,400 England. And they had all sorts of items 276 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:50,200 on display in this giant Crystal Palace that was basically this 277 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:55,280 glass structure that was enormous and it was all Albert's 278 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,120 doing. It was his idea. 279 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,800 He wanted England to show off all of the things that they had 280 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,920 and all of the areas that they were advancing and that sort of 281 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,960 thing. So it was a very huge event and 282 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,520 some of those things are, I mean, they had a lot of things 283 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,920 in their collections. So now there's a Victorian 284 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,000 Albert Museum, which there's other things in there as well. 285 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,000 However, there's a lot of the things that were on display in 286 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,760 1851 at the Crystal Palace, so I thought that was pretty cool 287 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:28,960 'cause total time into my game. Right. 288 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:29,840 No. How much? 289 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,760 So you're at the Victoria Albert Museum. 290 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,960 How much? How many elements of apostocracy 291 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,000 did you see, whether intentionally or unintentionally 292 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,480 you're at the museum you like. That's in my game and that's in 293 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,800 like. I will say I thought out that 294 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,640 time period, 'cause they have it all kind of according to time 295 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:47,360 periods. And I did go visit more, but I 296 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,840 went directly to Queen Victoria's, you know, Reign, 297 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,840 basically, and started there. They had model, like a 298 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,800 architectural kind of model of the Crystal Palace. 299 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:03,800 They had a painting that I had seen, you know in my research in 300 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,880 books and that and online that is of the family when they 301 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,560 opened the event inside the Crystal Palace and there's all 302 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,319 of the like ton members essentially surrounding them and 303 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:19,560 it was painted to commemorate the time and it was this large 304 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:21,280 painting. It was sitting right there and 305 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,920 so it was really cool to get to see that as well. 306 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:33,240 And I but I love that period. I love all of the history in the 307 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,040 Victoria Albert Museum. It was really cool. 308 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,440 So I kept going and I went through all the decades and 309 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,400 checked it out. Also of course, went to the 310 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,800 British Museum too. Of course it had more of the 311 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,240 older things, but it was. I've been there before, but it's 312 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:48,800 always a good place to go. It's wonderful. 313 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,280 Absolutely. So you've mentioned it a couple 314 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,440 times. I remember it in the game, but 315 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,120 just in case, no, you know, anyone's curious. 316 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,640 So the the Ton, The Ton, Is that how it's turned out? 317 00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,760 So what is the Ton and how does it fit into the game? 318 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:10,080 So the bon ton, which is a French word for like the most 319 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:17,560 elegant, highest titled and most elite sort of people. 320 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:23,040 That's where the the term comes from and society and that is the 321 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,440 people that you are meeting in the game and trying to become 322 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,960 friends with. So it's titled Individuals and 323 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,800 or maybe wealthy land owners and that sort of thing too, but it's 324 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,120 basically where your playground is, that in that beehive you're 325 00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:41,400 going to all the events they're going to, you're going to the 326 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,080 races at Ascot, you're going to balloon launch at Vauxhall 327 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,400 Garden and you're going to the March and s s dinner and the 328 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:54,400 salons and Tees. So that is the space the game 329 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,280 kind of takes place in. And there's kind of a there's 330 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,880 almost a kind of a hand management aspect of the game 331 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:08,000 because you're building your hand right in preparation for 332 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,440 the final. But there's. 333 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,760 Are there still? Are there still multiple trick 334 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,080 taking phases or is it just? No. 335 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:20,200 OK, see, because I've not seen the most current you've. 336 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,040 Done. You've done a few very yeah 337 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,160 iterations, but not on real recently. 338 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,400 So disregard everything I just said, guys, and listen to 339 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:28,120 Heather now. Well. 340 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,000 Gives you more opportunity to build that hand out. 341 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:35,760 OK. So in the game during the, you 342 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,080 start with the starting hand, you have a low card or a low 343 00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:45,080 number of each suit. So clubs, fade, diamond, heart, 344 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,080 and those represent titles, so there's a hierarchy to them. 345 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,520 So hearts are our highest, They're the Duke or Duchess. 346 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,120 As close as you get to royalty before you are in royalty. 347 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,520 And the lowest is a club, that's our Baron or Baroness. 348 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,560 And so you can always use a higher title if you know 349 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:04,120 someone. They're people that are opening 350 00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:07,960 doors for you essentially. And so if something requires a. 351 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,280 Heart or a Duke or a Duchess to open the door, that's the only 352 00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:15,000 suit you can play or or you basically discard from your hand 353 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:20,040 in order to do the event. But if it's for instance a club, 354 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,040 you can use Club, Spade, Diamond or Heart because they're all 355 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,000 higher than the Baron or Baroness, so they can open those 356 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,840 doors just as easily. So you're trying to make 357 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,000 connections, the higher ones or you know, the ones that are 358 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,680 ranked heart or diamond being the higher ones followed by 359 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:40,320 Spade and Club. However, in the final trick 360 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:45,800 taking game, we have a trump suit that is diamonds because 361 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,720 you were diamond of the first water was a term they used. 362 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,720 OK, all so kind of where it came from. 363 00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:56,080 So when you have an opportunity to go to the parlor during the 364 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,920 weeks, you're going to be creating your hand and getting 365 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,840 better cards for both influencing game and also for 366 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,680 that final trick, taking game and also shedding some of those 367 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,640 early low cards that you don't want anymore. 368 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:13,920 But sometimes you have to make a choice, because Queen Victoria's 369 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,800 are highest and the Queens are off on their own. 370 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,360 But then in the parlor you have the Princess, the jacks, 371 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:21,800 attends, and then all the diamonds that are not already in 372 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,280 someone's starting hand. So they're all the better cards 373 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,520 and you can visit there and gain one, and also at that time you 374 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,520 can trash one of your other cards. 375 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:35,040 But sometimes you have to make a choice because it might be a 7 376 00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:39,360 of diamonds sitting there and then there might be, you know, a 377 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,800 Prince of clubs, which is high from a trick taking thing, but 378 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,640 not for that influencing game. And then you might have like a 379 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,840 heart that's a a Jack, right? So you're like, do I need that 380 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,320 heart right now because I really need to open these doors or do I 381 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:56,880 just want to go deep in diamonds? 382 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,840 Because that's gonna serve me the best, because at the end of 383 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,000 the game, depending on player count, there's anywhere from 384 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,960 7:00 to 9 tricks, and each trick is worth 2 Victoria points. 385 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,800 What is the player? What's the player count for the 386 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:11,800 game? 1:00 to 4:00. 387 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,120 One to four, OK, we're. Working on this other version. 388 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,720 So what about if we've got we've got gamers who are either they 389 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,160 don't, they don't like trick taking or they're not 390 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:28,280 comfortable with trick taking. Is it possible to play the game 391 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:34,400 enough and accumulate enough points that that the whist it 392 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,360 can mitigate a poor performance in the trick taking whist at the 393 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:39,000 end? Yeah. 394 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:40,320 It is. You don't. 395 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,120 I mean, and chances are you have. 396 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,400 Sometimes people take no tricks, but even if you're not terribly 397 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,320 prepared and you maybe just go get one or two cards sometimes 398 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,400 you can at least gain it 1 trick. 399 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,400 And if there's four players, even if you're not getting a 400 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,880 lot, they probably are dividing up those tricks between 401 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,200 themselves. So the number of points they're 402 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,280 getting isn't, you know, so much higher. 403 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,960 However, you can be doing a lot of things instead of going to 404 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,240 the parlor. You know that will gain you 405 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,320 Victoria points during the game, right? 406 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,280 So, and I do call them Victoria Points, not victory. 407 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,760 Points, Victoria points. I love that. 408 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:24,800 That's so thematic it's great. So the other, I guess the other 409 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,000 question is, is the opposite true? 410 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:33,680 If for whatever reason, my strategy or execution and worker 411 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:39,320 placement, it just doesn't go my way, can I make up for lost 412 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,760 ground by winning more tricks at the end? 413 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,200 You can. You have to do more than one 414 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,880 thing. That one thing sometimes will 415 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,480 include going, you know, moderately or pretty heavy into 416 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,800 the parlor to get a better hand, but you're going to be doing 417 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,440 other things too during the the season. 418 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,880 So you're going, you can't do everything, there's too much 419 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,880 going on, so you kind of have to choose which ones are most 420 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,440 attainable to you. And also each of the characters, 421 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,440 they have a host that's giving them an asymmetric bonus or or 422 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,520 starter starting place. So that actually helps them and 423 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,120 helps a new player kind of know when there's so much in front of 424 00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:23,400 them, kind of have an idea of maybe what they might go try 425 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,760 first. OK, but I am doing. 426 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,640 Yeah. And so I remember early on 427 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:35,040 prototype testing, you actually had real brooches for the player 428 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,280 pieces. It looks like. 429 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,200 It looks like you now have some sort of a You're still using 430 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:42,480 brooches, right? But they're. 431 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,680 They're, they're, yeah, they're. Or they're brooch like. 432 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,360 Brooch. Like they don't actually attach 433 00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:50,720 to you, although that would be really cool and they are 434 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,280 plastic. But I did have some miniatures 435 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:57,880 made too, and this is what I did, some miniatures and to kind 436 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,000 of see what those molds would look like when I did the resin 437 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,080 for the game. And I got them back and of 438 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,720 course they're Gray, you know, they're not painted colorful. 439 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,680 Like those aren't the ones I have in my prototype right now. 440 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,600 But I decided I want this look special. 441 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,720 I'd never miniature painted before, but I am an artist, so I 442 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,440 painted a lot. But I was like, I wonder if I 443 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,600 could gold leaf this, these miniature approaches. 444 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:23,960 And I did. And it worked. 445 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,560 Hey, yeah. So I did like a little color on 446 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:28,760 them. And then I did a gold leaf and 447 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,960 it was really fun. But it's just for just for fun. 448 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,200 But anyway, so now people that do like miniature painting, you 449 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,640 can gold leaf, silver leaf, copper leaf, or whatever kind of 450 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,640 leaf you want to onto those minis. 451 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,160 If you really want a metallic effect, that's. 452 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:45,680 Beautiful. But that was just me playing 453 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,320 around. So last week when Gareth and I 454 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,120 recorded together that was that was crazy. 455 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,720 If y'all, if y'all haven't go back and listen to episode 75. 456 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:56,440 Gareth and I were in the same room. 457 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,440 It was just you know sitting at a table chatting. 458 00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:02,920 We talked about doing. I think you heard it because I I 459 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,280 think you sent me a message but we were like we wanted to 460 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,680 envision our it's my idea is to envision some sort of a a 461 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:13,280 trilogy either the the the Regency and then apostocracy, 462 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,560 which is Victorian age, and then obsession. 463 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,320 Or start with apostocracy, go with obsession and then a third 464 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,000 game that kind of early and and that would just be a really cool 465 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:28,440 thematic day of playing. My wife had suggested marrying 466 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,160 Mr. Darcy, 'cause that is Regency, you know. 467 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:38,400 But it's Jane Austen's. Not my favorite but but 468 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,560 whatever. But yeah, I just think it's 469 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,760 really cool, 'cause I think your game is a beautiful compliment 470 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,680 to obsession and I think they both would play really well 471 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,920 together, you know? Yeah, one before the other. 472 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,000 They. Sure, they're they're really 473 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,920 different but they they obviously the thematically and 474 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,920 also you're dealing with the ton obviously, I mean and you're 475 00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:06,240 trying to make your way in that and make a name for yourself. 476 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,160 So they're very much somewhere in that way too. 477 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,720 So even though it's later Victorian, yeah, right. 478 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,120 And it's also a different, so it's a different role, right, 479 00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:19,280 because in in pistography you're being invited by a noble family 480 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:24,000 to come to the season where is in obsession, you are a noble 481 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,000 family trying to manage your estate and host, host, all these 482 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,560 things. So I could envision, I could 483 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,560 envision playing apostocracy. And then in obsession we have 484 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,680 like casual guests and prestigiousness. 485 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,920 Your character from Obsession from Apostocracy could be a 486 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:48,320 casual guest card, yeah? So Dan, if you're listening, you 487 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,640 need to get another and work out some sort of AI. 488 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,600 Don't know. I thought of the trilogy too. 489 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,160 OK, so you're starting up because you're just making your 490 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,440 come out. You're not getting married. 491 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,840 You're just going to the parties and trying to get, we can see 492 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,800 this favorite. Then you go off to the estate 493 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,480 where you know people do get married and maybe and and that 494 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,080 sort of thing. And then the final game, 'cause 495 00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:11,680 I don't know. I know it's Victorian, so we 496 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:16,120 could just say it's later. Victorian, sure, but deadly 497 00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:17,680 dowagers. So you're married and now you 498 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,960 want to kill your husband off so you can. 499 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,440 Yes. You can like, marry up to the 500 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:24,840 next title. So they're. 501 00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:27,920 Through 'cause you're trying to marry the Prince right at the 502 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:29,600 end of. That's the whole point of deadly 503 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,160 dowaging. Oh, oh, that's a good. 504 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,400 That's a good yeah. Dramatically, it just works. 505 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:40,000 No, that's that's great. So we need to get Apostocracy it 506 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,440 at your tables. You need to go to Kickstarter, 507 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,600 10:00 AM Central Standard Time, April 23rd. 508 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:51,000 That is a week from today when you're listening to the episode, 509 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:56,000 if you're listening to it live. And then you can have the 510 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,920 Victorian era trilogy of games on your table. 511 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,480 Yeah, there you go. How about that? 512 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,840 That's cool. Is there anything else we want 513 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:08,000 to? You want to mention Heather 514 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,480 about the game, about the design or the artwork, Who did the art 515 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,640 for the. Game I'm the artist you are. 516 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,520 The designer what? Yeah, so I am an art artist, an 517 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,800 art director by trade. I said I was a game designer by 518 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,080 hobby, but now I am a game designer in truth as well. 519 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,120 And so basically it's part of my process. 520 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,640 I draw constantly, so if I reiterate and I need some more 521 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,840 characters or components or cards, I just draw more. 522 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,240 I have so many versions and I at some point I need to post on 523 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,680 social media my, like early versions, 'cause it's funny to 524 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,120 see them now compare it like it was kind of a rougher sketch 525 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,240 kind of a thing. And it I need to put the like 526 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,280 early versus the now kind of pictures up there. 527 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:56,720 But yeah, so I did the art and I that's what I love doing so. 528 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,120 How did I not know that? Did I? 529 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,040 Did I not know what did I did I know that and I forgot. 530 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,960 Oh gosh. Well, if I knew it and I forgot, 531 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,240 I apologize. Otherwise that's amazing cause 532 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:12,840 the artwork is fantastic and I think they'll we'll leave it 533 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:13,880 there. I think that's good. 534 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:14,920 Unless there's any. Yeah. 535 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,880 So go ahead. I'll just mention that I I'm not 536 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,440 the best with all social media, but I am on Instagram and it is 537 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,480 at Apistocracy. And apistocracy is essentially 538 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,960 aristocracy, but AP instead of an R because we're climbing the 539 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,680 social BI. So yeah, at apistocracy is me. 540 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,720 If you want to check out some of that art and some of the travels 541 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,320 and that sort of thing there, and also the journey I've made 542 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:49,520 from those early iterations and meeting you all the way to where 543 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,200 we are tonight. So, absolutely. 544 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:57,000 And I guess to say, well, the the motto is to keep your 545 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,160 temper. Yes, that was something you 546 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:04,520 would see on a Whist token. With Whist tokens were very 547 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,680 prevalent at the time and they were used in playing the game. 548 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,960 Whist and Queen Victoria's likeness will be on it. 549 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,680 And it said keep your temper. Which is funny 'cause she 550 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,160 notoriously kind of had a temper. 551 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:15,800 She did. She. 552 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,160 Did. And for those of you listening, 553 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,840 I am wearing AT shirt that Heather made and gave on to 554 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,240 myself and my wife and it says keep your temper. 555 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,840 So I wore it today for this very purpose. 556 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,640 So remember to keep your temper with that. 557 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,320 I would say thank you for listening again, Gareth. 558 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,000 You'll be back next week presumably where we will be 559 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,440 episode 77. We've got some more designers 560 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,320 coming up, couple of games that Gareth and I are play testing 561 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,280 right now. So Heather, thank you for 562 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,240 joining us. Thanks for your patience with me 563 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,120 today. Oh no, it was wonderful. 564 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:53,520 Thank you very much. All right. 565 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,080 Thanks, guys. Thanks everyone for listening. 566 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,720 Please subscribe. And as always, we love to hear 567 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,320 your thoughts and ideas, so make sure to leave those in the 568 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,480 comments. And don't forget, you can also 569 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,720 chat with us both on Instagram at meeple to Meeple.