1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,840 Welcome to Maple to Maple, uniting players around the 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:06,640 world, a 30 minute exploration of TJ and Gareth's four-game 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:09,480 experiences from across both sides of the Atlantic. 4 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:12,720 Each episode they share their thoughts and opinions on the 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,280 world of four games, including their favorite themes, games, 6 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,720 hot topics, and much, much more. Hey guys, and welcome to episode 7 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:27,840 95 of Maple to Maple. We are slowly, slowly but surely 8 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,600 inching our way towards episode 100. 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,920 You guys have been hearing me say this for probably 10 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,600 episodes now, but here we are. So it's episode 95. 11 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:44,920 Try win games. Can't go, can't go, can you go? 12 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:50,080 I don't know. Today Gareth is unfortunately 13 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,120 not able to be with me, so it's just me, but I have invited our 14 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:58,160 wonderful friend, repeat guest on the show, John from Tri Win 15 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,520 Games, and he is going to talk to us about his new game that's 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:03,760 going to be launching on Kickstarter shortly. 17 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,360 Can't go, John. Welcome back. 18 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,920 Hello PJ, an absolute pleasure to be back. 19 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,960 Obviously not wishing for Gareth not to be here, but if it means 20 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:17,160 I get an opportunity to slide back into this delightful 21 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:21,240 podcast then I will take that and run with it as far as I can. 22 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,040 As long as you don't try to kill me like just before the 23 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,280 recording, you know, John is making fun of me and I am like 24 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,400 choking on my water. So I apologize if I sound a 25 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,880 little if I sound a little clear my throat there. 26 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,240 If if I'm alive, John, you can be on my podcast have a all 27 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,720 right. So don't kill the host. 28 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:52,120 I'm making out of that. Yes, so man, I, I don't even 29 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,520 know where to begin. So we're just going to begin in 30 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:55,440 the middle. How about that? 31 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:56,880 Let's just begin in the middle, right? 32 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,600 Let's pick the corn. Let's let's pick the corn bits 33 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:02,760 out of the poo. OK. 34 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:05,960 All right. Delving right in, right? 35 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:10,080 So tell people who don't know about your game what it's about. 36 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,240 OK so can't go the game of poop point and pandemonium. 37 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:20,360 It's as it's heart. It's a card game, so small, sort 38 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:25,800 of portable box size, couple of interesting decks of cards in 39 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,960 there which give the game its main name. 40 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,760 So you've got a poop and points deck in there and a pandemonium 41 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:36,440 deck. The the players would see three 42 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,760 deck cards in front of them, two for the decks I've mentioned, 43 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,080 and then a sewer deck which would be a discard card or a 44 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,560 discard area for the game. There's also four toilet cubicle 45 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,880 areas in the game, and there's also a little card with a little 46 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,760 toilet with a little water flow on it, so it shows the play 47 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,160 direction for the game. That's double sided as well. 48 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,160 So if you're in the northern hemisphere, you can play the one 49 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,280 way, and if you go southern hemisphere, you flip it over and 50 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:01,440 then you play the other way around. 51 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,520 The nuts and bolts of the game is the sort of two aspects of 52 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,400 the game. You've got pooping turns and 53 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,600 finishing turns. In pooping turns, players are 54 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,160 collaboratively playing cards out against the cubicles to get 55 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,120 poop points out into the play area. 56 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,320 As soon as somebody finishes one of those poops, it switches into 57 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,840 finishing terms and everyone is competing for that one that's in 58 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,240 play. It might be the smallest poop 59 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,360 that's out there, it might be the largest, it might be in 60 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,440 between. But everybody has to resolve 61 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,440 that one and deal with that before sort of moving on. 62 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,120 And the game sort of swings to and fro between people sort of 63 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,720 being in different mindsets where people are getting sort of 64 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,840 points out there versus being really competitive. 65 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,880 And as soon as that first poop is claimed, then you start 66 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,320 seeing the strategies emerging of whether people are just going 67 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,160 to go for sneaky small ones and be like, nobody's going to 68 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,240 challenge me for this. I'm going to just try and steal 69 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,320 this while nobody's considering it important. 70 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:01,080 And some might say, you know what? 71 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,120 I'm going to just keep building this enormous one in the middle 72 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,240 of the table, like right to the edge. 73 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,920 And, and sometimes that strategy really works and and sometimes 74 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,440 it doesn't. But yeah, so then you've got 75 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,440 between two and six players competing to be the first to 400 76 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:21,839 poop points or the the high score once one of the decks runs 77 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:24,920 out. So it's The thing is, I've, I've 78 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,480 described it so often now that I'll do it in a really like 79 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,160 formal way. And people are like, you know, 80 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,000 you're just talking about poop in the game, right? 81 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,080 I'm like, yeah. But it's, you know, it's, it's a 82 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,240 serious game. You know, people want to win 83 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,200 this. So that's that's a. 84 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,160 Very further game. It's funny that you brought that 85 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,800 up because listening to you talk, I, I wrote this down, 86 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,080 there was a, there was a phrase you use that I find so 87 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,880 entertaining because you're right, you're just talking about 88 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:58,760 poo. And very seriously, I for one 89 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,160 don't consider anyone else's poo important, OK? 90 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,800 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Game game terms. 91 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,360 This is what I love about this industry and our hobby is 92 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:17,080 something like poo. Yeah, I consider your poo very 93 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:23,600 important, but. Having play tested this a lot of 94 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:28,520 Times Now, it's amazing how attached people will get to 1, 95 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,320 especially if they, if they've finished it, they feel that it's 96 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,280 theirs. And if somebody else steals it 97 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:35,800 from them and they get to to wipe or steal it in some way and 98 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,920 they get the points. There's this this real sense of 99 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,400 loss of somebody else stealing the poop from them. 100 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:46,080 And it's I, I'll, I'll live for those sort of bizarre sort of 101 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,760 out, out of game context. It makes no sense and it sounds 102 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,440 ridiculous, but in the game just just joyous. 103 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:53,160 It's brilliant. That's that's amazing. 104 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:58,160 So how does that work? How do how do I cause so when I 105 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,080 was in England I only got to hold the game and look at a few 106 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,800 cards I did not get to play. I'm a little disappointed but 107 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,760 that's OK. How do I steal your poo? 108 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,120 Like mechanically, how would that happen? 109 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:14,920 So there's a a couple of ways. The main 1 is. 110 00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:19,800 So once the the poop's been finished off, then mainly the 111 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,400 cards that will be played are the are the ones that will 112 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,120 determine what happens with those points. 113 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:31,880 Once a player plays a card on their turn, the terms would 114 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,160 normally stop. However, there are wipe cards in 115 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,080 the deck and a wipe card. There are two styles. 116 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,720 There's standard and luxury. The luxury works just like a 117 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,080 normal one, but it adds extra points so it's got a points 118 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,480 value to it. If you use that, the actual poop 119 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,920 becomes more valuable. So for instance, if we were 120 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:53,400 playing A2 player and I'd finish the poop, then potentially that 121 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,280 could be my point. But because I had finished it, 122 00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:57,800 the next player would get a go and then you would have a turn. 123 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,000 And if you wiped for it, you would then supersede me and then 124 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,280 you would be in the running to claim those points. 125 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,400 Wiping is the only one where if you play it on your turn, the 126 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:08,880 next player will always get a go. 127 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,120 So strategically, sometimes you'll want to wipe for one to 128 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:16,120 try and steal one and sometimes you'll let 1 slide because when 129 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,040 you're doing the finishing turns, you're not drawing 130 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,640 backup, you're not drawing cards back up pooping turns. 131 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,320 You'll always have 5 cards in your hand of whatever 132 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,760 combination of the two decks. As soon as you're finishing, 133 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:30,760 you've just got the cards in your hand. 134 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,560 So it means that tactically you you might want to sort of run 135 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,720 somebody a bit dry maybe so that then you could steal the next 136 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,440 one. And the, the two types of cards 137 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,760 have got different colours on the back so you can see whether 138 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,520 they're likely to challenge. So if they've got yellow cards, 139 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,720 for instance, which are the poop cards, they can't win with a 140 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:51,160 yellow card. They've got to have a blue 141 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,040 pandemonium card to try and challenge. 142 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,600 So if they've got a hand of yellow, you know, they can't 143 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,760 challenge you. So you can use that sort of 144 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,280 information to to gauge what you're doing. 145 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,200 So yeah, so there's but the, the way the blue cards work, the 146 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:10,640 pandemonium ones, is to design the spread of cards and quantity 147 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,160 of cards to allow players to always have an option to do 148 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,720 something rather than just being backed into a corner all the 149 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:17,960 time. We'd be like, OK, there's 150 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,800 nothing I can do. The game's there to have a play 151 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,840 area where paying attention is really valuable because you can 152 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:29,960 see how people are playing and where and because of the types 153 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,080 of cards, you can always try and challenge or try and do 154 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,240 something that benefits you or benefits others or just tries to 155 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,679 hinder somebody else. So it's when we began with it, 156 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,080 people had said it was sort of a like a take that sort of style 157 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,040 to the game. But there is some of that, but 158 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:51,560 there's also some I don't I don't know what the opposite 159 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:54,120 would be to take that. It's more of a oh, here you go 160 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,520 kind of thing because there's one card that gives if you're 161 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,840 challenging for one poop, a splash card, for instance, 162 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:00,760 shares the points amongst everybody. 163 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,520 So there's always an opportunity where you could pull the rug or 164 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,360 you could go, that's fine. We'll we'll all get, you know, 165 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,160 do good out of this. You can tell how how people feel 166 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,360 that they're going because when they start discarding those 167 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,680 cards, then you're like, OK, you've gone from your nice 168 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:19,960 moment and you're just into the I'm just in this for victory 169 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,560 now. So it's quite interesting to see 170 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:25,720 how the the play changes as the sort of points get scored as 171 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,360 well. So I want to ask about the poop 172 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:34,200 deck first. When you're playing the cards, 173 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,360 the the design of the card, the the poop, do the cards, when you 174 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,560 play them on the table, do they overlap or do they go side by 175 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:50,000 side in one long poop? Or I'm thinking about for our 176 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,440 listeners who might be familiar with the canopy where you're 177 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:58,040 building a tree and you actually lay the cards a little bit over 178 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,240 each other to form a trunk of a tree. 179 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,120 Is that how it works or are they side by side? 180 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,320 How's that? So yeah, it's a good question. 181 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:12,240 So the two sort of main poop, the two types of poop cards are 182 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,480 the tip cards, so the ones that represent the ends and then the 183 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:20,120 medals and the tip 1 can be played either way up. 184 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:25,480 You would play it the appropriate way to build cards 185 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,360 next to it. So you play the tip like 186 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,760 vertically if you like, to begin with, and then you'd play middle 187 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,480 cards next to it. So the poop would grow in the 188 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:34,960 cubicle. So you would see it moving 189 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,640 across the table. And then when you wanted to 190 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,600 finish it, you would take that same tip card or spin it round 191 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,760 180. So then it'd be sort of upside 192 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,520 down if you like, and then it'd finish it off the other end. 193 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:50,560 So then you get this big or small oblong shape that's been 194 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,640 built on the table. So yeah, so rather than them 195 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,840 being sort of stacked onto top of each other, they are sort of 196 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:00,560 spread next to each other. Yeah, it's a horizontal sequence 197 00:11:00,560 --> 00:11:04,840 if you like. OK, so there's a little there's 198 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,000 some table presence to the game. We did, yeah. 199 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,640 Yeah. So let's sort of demoed it at 200 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:16,320 the UK Games Expo twice now. And I always thought that the, 201 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,240 with a three or foot diameter tables would always be big 202 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,240 enough. And they're never quite big 203 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,720 enough for people who get really competitive about how big a poop 204 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,240 they can make. And many a time I've had the, 205 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,360 the, the jaws style quota of we're going to need a bigger 206 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,080 table because it just keeps getting bigger. 207 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,360 So, and you can tell somebody usually in the groups like, I'm 208 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,560 either going to take that or I'm going to flush it so that nobody 209 00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:43,840 gets it. And, and more often than not, 210 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,480 somebody will flush that, that entire group will just be 211 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,280 discarded. And there's, there's just this, 212 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,560 this real resigned sigh of the group. 213 00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:55,800 They're like, we were building something so good and saying 214 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:00,000 you've just taken your promise. And yeah, yeah. 215 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,240 Yeah, OK, I love it. I love it. 216 00:12:03,560 --> 00:12:08,120 So how about the Pandem Pandemonium deck, right? 217 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,240 That's what it's called. So tell, tell me about the 218 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,840 Pandemonium deck. What can people expect them when 219 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:16,680 they play those cards? What do they look like? 220 00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:20,440 What do they do? So in there you've got a mixture 221 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,360 of action cards, a mixture of icons on them as well. 222 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,960 So you've got sort of pretty, I don't want to deglamor it, but 223 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,160 there's sort of standard game sort of things in there like a 224 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,240 mix of turn, which is a little poop with a little with with 225 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,440 sweat marks on because you're you can't play your turn. 226 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:41,400 So you're sort of straining a bit if you like. 227 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:47,240 And then you've got the flush action in there, a little mean 228 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,800 toilet on, and then as I say, that will clear all the cards 229 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,520 out from 1 cubicle. The other interesting one that 230 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:59,680 developed early in the game was one where you can stack cards in 231 00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:02,080 the cubicle where you play that one. 232 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,600 And whatever's happening with the poop that's been competed 233 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,520 for in the finishing turn, all of those cards will all get 234 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,000 stacked up on top of each other, and then the stack card will be 235 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,000 played on top. So now you've got the cubicle 236 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,320 card, and next to it a stack of however many points underneath, 237 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,240 which if somebody places Cuba cards after that one and wins 238 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,000 those, they'll also win the stacked ones as well. 239 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,800 So potentially you can get loads and loads of points building up 240 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,400 in one cubicle. But then that does also build 241 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,280 the risk of if somebody's got a flush card and they feel pretty 242 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,360 pointed about it, then they'll flush the whole lot as well. 243 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,200 So yeah, sometimes stack, because stack will just pause 244 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,120 those points and it'll just hold them in the game. 245 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,440 And sometimes I'll sit there for the rest of the game because 246 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,760 nobody's got the nerve to try and claim them because they're 247 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,760 they're too big. So that's quite interesting. 248 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,840 You've got a sort of a helper card, if you like, where you can 249 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,520 draw 2 cards. So if you're stuck and you can't 250 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,280 normally play, then you would play this card and then you can 251 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,440 draw 2 cards from whichever deck that you like and then you would 252 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,040 play from your hand or from those two that you've got and 253 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,560 then just discard another. So you're back to your original 254 00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:11,760 hand number. So give. 255 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,640 So it's a bit of, I don't want to say get out of jail free 256 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,000 card, but it just gives you an extra if if you're down to 257 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,600 nothing you like, at least I can try this and just have a roll of 258 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,960 the dice if you like, which is quite nice. 259 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,200 The the ones I mentioned were the two splash cards. 260 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,800 So the one allows everybody to win the value of the poop that's 261 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,000 in play. There's another one which is 262 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,400 points for two. So just you and the previous 263 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,800 player would get those points. Obviously in a a bigger player 264 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,680 game, it means that some people are going to lose out in that 265 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:46,200 and too festive that the alliances built and lost in the 266 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,760 in the choice of splash cards of who you decide to sort of put up 267 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,160 with. Yeah. 268 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,320 And then like I say, you've got the wipes as well, which are for 269 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,600 challenging as you you sort of deem appropriate. 270 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,760 And a lot of people, they just go full on for the wipe and 271 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,800 they're like, you know what, I'm just going to doggedly wipe for 272 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:06,840 this and I'm going to go all out and win it. 273 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:09,600 And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. 274 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:11,440 And it depends who you're playing with. 275 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,560 And yeah, the, it's been really fun seeing how the dynamics vary 276 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:22,120 on player count and the, the, the sort of can understand the 277 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,640 types of players involved, the way they come into the game, 278 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:26,800 whether they're just, yeah, this is just good fun. 279 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,280 And then it turns into actually it looks cute, but there's a lot 280 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,960 at stake in this and everyone sort of sharpens up a bit. 281 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,040 So yeah. So the pandemonium is it sort of 282 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,480 plays into the sort of the to and fro of the game where the 283 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,480 pooping is obviously more of the pooping punch deck. 284 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,760 And then the finishing is more around the pandemonium bit of, 285 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:46,960 you know, when when the chips are down. 286 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:48,880 Am I going to try and compete for this or am I going to try 287 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,080 and look after myself or others or, you know what, what, what am 288 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:57,080 I going to try and do? There's there's also in the 289 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:03,280 pandemonium deck, there are four event cards which add a bit of 290 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,240 upsetting to the game as well. So for instance, one of them is 291 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,240 the the mushy wipe. So it turns out that all the 292 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:12,480 toilet paper has been damaged, right? 293 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,480 So it's all wet. So anybody who's been hoarding 294 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,480 wipe cards, you have to discard them. 295 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,240 So that usually brings a bit of a tie as well. 296 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,480 So because people know it's in there, because people used to 297 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,320 hang on to the wipes for for a long time in the game, it's like 298 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,840 that's, that's not, that's not where the game needs to be. 299 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:33,280 It needs to be a bit more. What's the word to, to bring 300 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,760 people into the game? Just having that one event to 301 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,760 just change the mindset of going, OK, I I could try and 302 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,840 hold on to these, but there is the risk of, you know, trying 303 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,000 to, to be a toilet paper hoarder. 304 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,320 And, you know, historically we know that's not a very good 305 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,920 thing to do. So, yeah. 306 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,520 So it just adds a bit more, a bit more chaos I guess into the 307 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,800 into the mix. Poop and pandemonium. 308 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,000 Wow. So you know, I, so I got to know 309 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,320 you a bit when I was in England, we've had, we had quite a few 310 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:07,040 late night conversations and you're a very serious guy. 311 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,560 You know, you're a you're you're, you're a very serious 312 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,079 guy. You're a very meaningful, 313 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:17,920 thoughtful individual. You're a very serious job. 314 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,440 You've got a, a lovely partner. Your life is fantastic. 315 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,599 You're just delightful. And you came up with a game 316 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:27,520 about pooping and wiping. Mm hmm. 317 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,320 So take me through the beginnings, because you've been 318 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,200 working on this game for a while, haven't you? 319 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,440 Yeah. Take me through the beginnings 320 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,040 of that. Like, how do you get? 321 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:46,240 Where'd this come from? OK, so I guess without sort of 322 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,480 going too far back into memory lane. 323 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:53,320 So I've always enjoyed playing board games from my childhoods 324 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,880 of usually there's sort of compendium based games and, and 325 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,360 the game that shall not be named and, and things like that. 326 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,600 And I've always enjoyed sort of doing my own slant on things as 327 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,200 well and making my own sort of play versions of stuff. 328 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:12,280 And then it wasn't until much later, so say 201516 where I 329 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,640 realised that there was many, many board games and board game 330 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,240 cafes and things like that and, and, and, and an official hobby. 331 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,560 And then from that, I, I was just really engrossed in the 332 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,400 fact that it played to a lot of things just in my head in terms 333 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,640 of the sort of, yeah, the serious sort of analytical thing 334 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,520 of going, how does, how does this thing work? 335 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,240 And why does that one not work? And, and, and why, why do I 336 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,160 enjoy this and getting too reflective on it? 337 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,520 But going up, OK, this, this feels good. 338 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,440 I'd like to do something like this. 339 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,760 And I remember not quite binging, but almost the Wil 340 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,840 Wheaton tabletop for YouTube. Channel Series. 341 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,000 Where it was it was the essence of hobby gaming, if you like to 342 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,760 me where it was friends coming round, having a great time 343 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,680 playing a game and understanding what the game was about and I 344 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,320 watched all of those going there. 345 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,480 There is so much more to this in terms of just the box on the 346 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,200 shelf. It's, it's the, the, the thing, 347 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,720 the experienced, the moments that that little box of stuff 348 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,360 can create with people. And it's different every single 349 00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:23,920 time, right? Even if you play the same game 350 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,400 with the same people, it's never the same. 351 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,840 And that just intrigued me and delighted me. 352 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,400 And then I just started looking at, at options in my head of 353 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,680 going, OK, well, what, what sort of thing I ought to do. 354 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:41,120 I started looking around at all the games of themes and, and 355 00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:43,760 mechanics and learning lots more of the terminology. 356 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,040 And then that sort of fast forwarded into the summer of 357 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:53,000 2017 and I wanted a game that that never looked the same after 358 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,840 you'd taken your turn. So the sort of play area was 359 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,880 always developing. And yeah, there was an original 360 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,800 sort of premise about maybe mining for gems or something. 361 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,320 I was like, yeah, it could work, but it just there's no. 362 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,080 There's no like joy in it, right? 363 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,840 It just felt too mechanical. And I was like, OK, this is 364 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,280 fine. But it sort of kept the idea on 365 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,560 my mind and just going on a camping trip in that summer and 366 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:24,200 maybe it was coincidental, maybe it was thematic, but had done 367 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,040 the bathroom things. And I was like, this could work 368 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,240 if it was a toilet and a poop in it. 369 00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:33,200 Because it's the same premise of you're building stuff out. 370 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,320 You're trying to claim instead of gems, you'd have sweet corn. 371 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,840 And it was, it was just kind of populating itself in my head and 372 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,120 I was like, this is it's coming together too nicely and I'm 373 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:48,360 enjoying this too much in my head for something. 374 00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:50,640 Right, right. And I started talking to people 375 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,000 about it and they were like you, you need to get this into a form 376 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,160 that we can play because this would be amazing. 377 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,280 And it just started from that really with with that initial 378 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,960 sort of, it wasn't the elevator pitch, but that sort of 32nd to 379 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,000 a minute intro to people going, I've had this idea for a game 380 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:09,560 and I'm like, Oh yeah, what's it about? 381 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,680 And they'll be like, yeah, I want to play that. 382 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:13,280 I'm like, OK, cool. I'll. 383 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,160 And I think it was maybe they should have given me a different 384 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,480 reaction. It was that initial kind of, 385 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,280 this could be brilliant and hilarious and ridiculous and 386 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,560 great all in the same breath. And. 387 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,120 And I like that. And I guess the sort of circular 388 00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:33,920 thing of coming back to the, the serious personality. 389 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,560 But the the humour bit is I grew up watching a lot of the sort of 390 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,720 classic British comedy stuff like the the sitcom writer and 391 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,720 all the sort of really well heralded writers. 392 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,520 And I often found there was a real like, especially with 393 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,120 Ronnie Barker as an instance, really serious guy, and he took 394 00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:56,440 his craft very seriously, but the stuff he produced was very, 395 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:01,400 very clever and very funny. And it was that balance, and I'm 396 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,680 not saying I'm on that level at all, but just that balance, 397 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,520 right, where you don't have to be a clown all the time to make 398 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,320 people laugh. You can have that balance 399 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,880 between your personality characteristics if you like. 400 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:16,760 So as soon as the game started, Mikey, as soon as I introduced 401 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,360 the game to people and they were like, oh, this is cool. 402 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,720 And then they started laughing with it and playing the game. 403 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,880 I was like, this is that's the reaction I want. 404 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,680 I want people to enjoy it and be playing the game. 405 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:32,200 So there's that duality of sort of competition and entertainment 406 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,920 at the same in the same experience. 407 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,240 And I was like that, that's it. That's that's what I want to 408 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:44,800 bottle up, really. So have you ever given a pitch 409 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,600 for your game while in a bathroom? 410 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,440 I picture you sitting on the toilet next to some game 411 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,360 designer be like, so I've got this idea for this game. 412 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:03,920 Really. So I I haven't, I haven't. 413 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:08,160 I suppose for for comedy purposes I should I should say 414 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,640 it's the only way I pitch the game, but but I haven't that. 415 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:15,800 Would have been great. Because I think if you're in the 416 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,440 toilet cubicle and you said I've got this idea for a game, that 417 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,080 lead sentence could land you in a. 418 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,480 Weird. A lot of trouble. 419 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,720 I mean, that could, yeah, yeah, that could go wrong really 420 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,320 quickly and just running away going. 421 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,000 I just want to tell you about my Kickstarter. 422 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,920 So the OK, so Kickstarter here. So let's start here. 423 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,160 When's the launch? What's the launch date for this 424 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,680 game? So the launch dates on the 6th 425 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:52,440 of so Friday the 6th of September 2024 and it's actually 426 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,440 taking place or put well travel Godzilla in or put tabletop 427 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,240 Scotland, which is on that that weekend. 428 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,680 Excellent. So guys be looking for that on 429 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:06,640 September 6th. So why did you decide of why did 430 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:11,040 you decide to launch on Kickstarter as opposed to other 431 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,000 crowd funding sites that are available? 432 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,040 It's a good question. There were a lot of influencing 433 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,440 factors in that. And this is where it gets super 434 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,440 analytical because there's an enormous amount of effort that 435 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,840 goes into any, any sort of pre launch campaign, whatever sort 436 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,880 of platform you're using, right. And there are, yeah, pros and 437 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,360 cons with every sort of approach. 438 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:41,880 The for me, there were, there were a few key influencing 439 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,760 factors without sort of running into sort of a whole analysis of 440 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,280 everything. But, and I make no secret about 441 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,520 having previous Kickstarters for this game, but because I'd 442 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,520 engaged with Kickstarter before, it was a platform where the fan 443 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,280 base of the game was growing through Kickstarter. 444 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,080 So people were prepared to say, look, we want this game, we will 445 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,120 back it. Obviously, we just need enough 446 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:09,880 other people to do it at the same time as well. 447 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,120 And you're like, OK. The the peculiarity with 448 00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:20,720 Kickstarter though, is that you, you get to see your your pre 449 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,640 follower list if you like, but it's only numerical. 450 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,600 You don't get to see who the people are. 451 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,000 You don't get to see where they are and you don't really get to 452 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,960 see when they started supporting. 453 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,640 So you just got this mysterious number of saying, oh, there are 454 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:37,960 number of people interested in this game. 455 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,320 Cool. And then you go, well, what, 456 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,000 what can I do with that? For instance, if, if I knew or 457 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,680 if somebody knew about a campaign that all of your 458 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,000 followers were in a particular country, that he's not your 459 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,400 country, you go, you know what, I'll, I'll set up all the 460 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,320 fulfilment stuff and all the delivery to ship it direct to 461 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,680 that country because it just makes logistical sense. 462 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,480 But you don't have that information available to you. 463 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:06,240 But what you do have available is a sort of a momentum, if you 464 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:11,360 like, or a community of people who, this mysterious community 465 00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:15,640 who are there and they do exist and you go, well, if I choose a 466 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:20,240 different platform, I'm very likely to lose them because 467 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,200 being able to recover everybody who's followed it is, is very, 468 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,760 very difficult if possible at all. 469 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,280 So that was one of the key influencing things is because 470 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,680 I've been growing this community, if you like, aside 471 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,160 from Kickstarter, but definitely through the Kickstarter platform 472 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,600 as well. It made sense to continue with 473 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,280 that for this game because there were people ready and waiting 474 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,240 for it. So then when other people were 475 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:43,800 saying, OK, how do we get this game? 476 00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:47,960 OK, go and follow the Kickstarter, go and sign up to 477 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,240 the pre launch and then you're in that amorphous BLOB of hidden 478 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,520 people. Yeah. 479 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,880 What that OK, that's that's a pretty good answer. 480 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,360 One one of the more in depth answers I've gotten in a while. 481 00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:06,880 So thank you for that. So that's pretty cool. 482 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,920 So you've got what 200 and 214 backers right now pre launch? 483 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,720 Is that what is that what I mean? 484 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,040 So So what are you looking for? You're in you're in the pre 485 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:18,480 launch stage. You're getting ready to launch 486 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,800 on the 6th. What are you looking for in the 487 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,800 campaign right now, just before the launch? 488 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,960 Like at what point? Where's the threshold where 489 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,760 you're like, I'm confident we're going to find we're ready to go 490 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:39,040 and pull the trigger? So it's the just the, what would 491 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,160 you call it, sort of the, the, the noise, if you like, of, of 492 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:47,040 the anticipation from others of people saying whether they 493 00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:49,680 through a lot of people who've been messaging me for well, like 494 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,680 since the summertime when they knew another campaign was sort 495 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,600 of in the offing and they'd be messaging going, is there a date 496 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,920 yet? We like whatever the, the latest 497 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,800 sort of event videos have been or photos and whatnot. 498 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,320 And we want to see what the latest thing is. 499 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,880 So just having that sense that people do care and it's still on 500 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,480 their radar. Obviously the, the enormous 501 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:18,080 proof is, is on that first really 24, at most 48 hours of 502 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,320 going OK, you push the button and you know, when the was it 503 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,240 when the, the flag drops, the the BS stops and you're like, 504 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,480 OK, that's it. And you'll, you'll then see 505 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,280 whether people are as keen as they say they are. 506 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,760 It's really, it's really easy for people to be really 507 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,560 supportive. And I'm not knocking these, but 508 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,400 they go, yeah, yeah, we'll definitely back you da da, da, 509 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,120 da da. And sometimes things happen 510 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,640 where they're not in a position to and that, you know, that's, 511 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:46,440 that's cool, but it just depends on how much you're banking on 512 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,040 convert. If you like marketing speak, 513 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,040 converting a number of your backers into or pre backers into 514 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,880 or proper backers. So, so there's, it's ultimately 515 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,200 a game of risk really. And the Kickstarter or any 516 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,280 credit funding campaign is a game in itself where you go, 517 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,360 there's an investment of time and money that everybody's put 518 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,200 into a campaign. And there comes a time where you 519 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,640 go, actually, no, it's just not worth doing at all, ever. 520 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,440 Or you go, it is worth doing, just not now. 521 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,440 Or you go, no, this is it. And you just push the button And 522 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,840 then as soon as you're in, you're, you're, you're strapped 523 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,840 in and nobody else is, but you're, you're on that ship and 524 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,840 you're firing away. And you just hope that the 525 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,200 people have aligned with you at the same time. 526 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:38,560 So do you have do you currently have any demographic information 527 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:45,320 on your followers pre launch? So not through Kickstarter, but 528 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,480 sort of informally. So I've done a lot of personal 529 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,640 messaging, especially through the spring and summer of this 530 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,800 year, early summer. So for instance, every single 531 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,160 Instagram follower has had a personal message from me. 532 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,640 A lot of people didn't realise it was personal message because 533 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,000 some would come back going, oh, thanks for the automated 534 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,560 message. I'm like, and I'd reply more or 535 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,000 less immediately going, this isn't automated. 536 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,680 I wish there was a way of doing it automated, but I care too 537 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,560 much to just send a blanket thing out because if it's 538 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,680 blanket, a lot of people go, I don't care about that, right. 539 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,160 So I was just messaging people going, the campaign's come in, 540 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,080 give it a follow up if it's on your radar or if you want it to 541 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:26,600 be on your radar. And then people would come back. 542 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,840 So I'd have, I'd be able to build my own sort of list up of 543 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,360 saying, yeah, where are people and what sort of things are they 544 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,360 interested in? What things do they know about 545 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:36,880 the game? What are they still curious 546 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,680 about? So then you can build a page 547 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,120 around that so that you you convey it in a way that is the 548 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,800 sort of pushes all the right buttons, I guess for people so 549 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,320 that when they look, they can go, Oh, yeah, I'll get this now 550 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,120 rather than trawling through it and going, OK, I don't, I still 551 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,000 don't really get it. And some people are back again 552 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,960 just because of the way it looks or just a referral from a friend 553 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,480 or whatever. But it needs to be, yeah, 554 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,560 credible enough so that people can just if they just happen 555 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,160 upon it, they can go, OK, I'll get this quickly enough. 556 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,360 And it either feels right. I'll delve a bit more before 557 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,920 they go, no, that's cool. And, and I think that's, that's 558 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:15,160 something that's quite important that I think a lot of indie 559 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,520 designers have a harder time with where people don't like 560 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,160 their game and they go, well, that's fine. 561 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,520 It it's better for you to find out faster that somebody doesn't 562 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,720 like it, right? Then you can quickly find 563 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,760 somebody who does because it's, you know, not every game has a 564 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,200 has a fan, You know, everyone likes different things. 565 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,880 True. So we've got what a week We've 566 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,040 got what? So today is the 1st of 567 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:43,520 September, it'll be the 3rd when you're listening to this because 568 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,920 it drops on Tuesday this episode and that'll be so they give you 569 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,960 3 days before launch. So here's something interesting 570 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:51,800 and why I asked you the question. 571 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,120 Now, granted, this is all these are all statistics through 572 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:02,760 Instagram only I don't have the Spotify statistics, but so 573 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:09,680 recently on the, the our podcast reach, so we're 37% in the US 574 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,640 and 17% in England. So I'm, I'm kind of, I'm kind of 575 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,760 pleased by that because early on, early on it was the other 576 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,200 way around. But what's interesting is this 577 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,520 week in particular, our greatest reach is in the city of Madrid. 578 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,000 I don't, I don't, I don't know. So it's like a, granted, we're 579 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:34,000 talking about a 1.8% increase in Madrid, in London, and then 580 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,120 obviously Springfield because you know, this is where I live, 581 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,400 and then Mexico City. So let's hope, let's hope 582 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,800 sincerely, you'll pick up a few listeners on Tuesday listening 583 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,320 to this podcast and they're hearing about your game for the 584 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,680 first time and they'll check it out on the 6th coming the 585 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,080 Kickstarter. Can't go because who doesn't 586 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,240 like to play serious strategic games and thinking about poo at 587 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:00,920 the same time? I mean, come on, right? 588 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:02,240 Exactly. Exactly. 589 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:10,040 That's awesome. So after this is there, is there 590 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,560 another project you're working on right now that'll be coming 591 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,720 out after Can't Go is complete or? 592 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,480 There are so do have. Yeah, it's actually just down 593 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,280 here. Next to me, there's a, a folder 594 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,600 of other ideas that are in various stages of, of 595 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,760 completion, very different themes, very different styles of 596 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,560 play. But the thing I wanted to get 597 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,080 through really was, was just to, to, to get through this first, 598 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,680 this first game really you can get it through to the, the 599 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,560 production bit. Because again, once you're, 600 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,160 there's a lot of discussions that you have with people and 601 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,480 until you're actually there with the money asking for lead times 602 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,040 and proper delivery dates, you, you never really know how people 603 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,880 are really going to perform. I mean, luckily the board game 604 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,960 industry is full of really helpful people, really reliable 605 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,640 employers and such. So I'm just really just super 606 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,880 keen to get through it. The other thing as well is it's 607 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,239 just that level of credibility as well, because it's all well 608 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,040 and good kind of preaching about Kickstarter advice and 609 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,600 perspectives and stuff, but until you've actually kind of 610 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,400 gone through and had a really successful one, all the 611 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,600 perspectives are like, OK, well, yeah, we hear what you're 612 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,159 saying, but you've never had a winning one. 613 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,280 So I'm, yeah, just getting getting out of that line and 614 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,120 just making it work. I'm just, yeah, super stoked for 615 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,560 that to happen. Well, here's to your first win 616 00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:32,600 that way. Yeah. 617 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:38,199 So that would be exciting. So we've come to the end of the 618 00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:43,560 show. So let's see we're I do my 619 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,600 little voice over from reading of a rule book. 620 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,719 And so here I've just picked one at random. 621 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,440 It's not even connected or related. 622 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,960 I don't have a copy of Can't go. So normally what I've done in 623 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,720 previous episodes is I would just read from your rule book. 624 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,080 You know, I know of your game, but I don't have that. 625 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,400 So I should have asked in advance. 626 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,040 So shame on me. This is what happens when Gareth 627 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:08,600 leaves me. He was back. 628 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,040 I thought everything was great and then I just dropped the 629 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,800 ball. So so here we go with the next 630 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,520 and I'll. I'll let you guess, but I won't 631 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,640 tell you and will reveal it next week. 632 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,120 Observe the growth of nature's most beautiful and exotic 633 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:31,720 natural structure, the coral reefs found primarily in the 634 00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:35,800 Indo Pacific region. It has taken reefs thousands of 635 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,560 years to grow. Over that time they have 636 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,440 mesmerized marine life and created amazing aquatic 637 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,480 ecosystems. Prepare yourselves to do the 638 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:50,240 same and open your eyes to the beauty of the oceans. 639 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,080 So that's the game. What do you what game do you 640 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,760 think I just read from? Well, I I just want to hear you 641 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,760 read more of that rule book. That is that's that's a there 642 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,840 should be a rule book with PJ podcast of itself. 643 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,800 Maybe that that's amazing. So I mean, you've gone into to 644 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,280 coral reefs there's. There is a. 645 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,160 A game called, you know, a game called Reef, which has got like 646 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,000 the clunky bits of coral reef and you sort of stack in. 647 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,480 There is and there is, and I think there's a game that just 648 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,720 came out that's called corals or coral reef or something like 649 00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:29,640 that. So it's a trick, right? 650 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,400 Like, what is it? Well, stay tuned next week and 651 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,120 you'll find out. And I just realized that I have 652 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:45,160 completely forgotten which rule what game I read from last week. 653 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,640 I'm I'm sitting here again. This is see what happens when 654 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,600 Gareth leaves me. In the edit, it's fine. 655 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,720 Nobody will know, it's fine. Right. 656 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,440 I'm sitting here while I'm talking to him, looking at my 657 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,200 shelf, going, what did I read from last week? 658 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:02,880 Because I need to tell my listeners. 659 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,160 Yeah, shoot, I've completely forgotten. 660 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,200 So I guess you're just going to have to stay tuned the week 661 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,880 after. And, you know, to be honest with 662 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,360 you, not only is it Garrett's absence, I think it's the fact 663 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,240 that I'm. So my head is fixated on episode 664 00:37:20,240 --> 00:37:23,960 100. And it's like, PJ, you, you got 665 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,320 five more episodes to go, son, you better calm down. 666 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:32,880 Yeah. So before we go, do you have 667 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,520 anything else you want to talk about? 668 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,400 Anything we missed on Can't Go Kickstarter. 669 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,560 What's going on? How's the weather in England? 670 00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:47,200 It's, it's well, apparently thunderstorms forecast, but they 671 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,240 never turn up and it's not turned up yet. 672 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,560 I do love a good thunderstorm. Yeah. 673 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,120 I mean, the UK thunderstorms are tolerable. 674 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,720 I think thunderstorms more or less everywhere else in the 675 00:37:56,720 --> 00:38:01,680 world are just like events destroying kind of activities 676 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,160 where it's just some. It's, it's, it's really, it's 677 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,360 really interesting because in the US we have special names 678 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,520 devoted to different types of thunderstorms. 679 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,400 And I, I don't, I don't mean like the Hurricanes, which have 680 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,520 their own names. I mean like, so there's last 681 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,680 summer, there was a storm that came through for about an hour 682 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,880 or two here. And it was like the, the, the 683 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,440 wind was blowing so much that the rain was going sideways. 684 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,480 I think, I think, I think they call it frontline winds or 685 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,440 something. So it's not wind gusts, right? 686 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,080 There's not a there's not a circulation in the air. 687 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,600 And they call it derecho. And I'm like, I've never heard 688 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,600 of that, but holy cow, that was terrifying. 689 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,600 So yeah. Well, good, good. 690 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,960 Yeah. We had thunderstorms here just a 691 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:57,480 few days ago. It was not fun. 692 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,800 So, yeah. But we are a much larger 693 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:06,320 country, so we get a lot more meteorological phenomena than 694 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:11,960 you do in England, so. Yeah, as as a really nerdy thing 695 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,120 and not to draw this out too long, but there is a website 696 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,400 where you, where it does a lightning map and you can so 697 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,280 just a map of the world and you can see wherever the weather 698 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,800 stations pick up all the Thunder and lightning. 699 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,240 And that's fascinating. Oh, it depends how you define 700 00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:27,080 fascinating. Right, right, right. 701 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,200 Really interesting. So like the last couple of days 702 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,040 I've been looking and over in France there's been quite a lot 703 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:33,920 of Thunder activity and I'm thinking, oh, is that going to 704 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,280 come up in into the UK? But it hasn't yet. 705 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:41,440 So I was quite disappointed but. What would be interesting is if 706 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,640 we had sensors in our toilets and you could track every toilet 707 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:50,720 flush around the world. Which, right. 708 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,000 I mean, just to tie this back to the theme of your game, but this 709 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,960 has like climate, this is climatological and 710 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,360 environmental, like repercussions, right? 711 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,680 You could track the flow of wastewater, you know, and human 712 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:09,120 activity potentially. It's kind of cool if you think 713 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,880 that kind of thing is. Just sort of breach the point or 714 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,160 brought the point of there's a good portion of the the world 715 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:16,680 that doesn't have flushing toilets. 716 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,520 I don't have access to good connotation. 717 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,080 So it's quite a a luxury if you like, of being able to have a 718 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,640 room with a toilet in, with clean water and you can just go 719 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,120 in and it's safe. You're not going to get 720 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:28,320 attacked. Everything's clean. 721 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:29,640 You're not going to get any bacteria. 722 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,680 There you go, there you go, there you are. 723 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,720 Well, thank you so much John. It was it's always a pleasure 724 00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:40,000 talking to you. Thanks for coming back on and 725 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,840 putting up with me without Gareth once again. 726 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,080 So. It's absolute pleasure, PJ. 727 00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:48,680 Thank you, Kyle. Thanks everyone for listening, 728 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,000 please subscribe and as always, we'd love to hear your thoughts 729 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:56,760 and ideas, so make sure to leave those in the comments and don't 730 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,760 forget you can also chat with us both on Instagram at Meeple the 731 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:01,400 Meeple.