Welcome to Episode 133, where imagination is central to
sparking connection through storytelling.
Today, we're diving into a heartwarming tale of local game
store that hosted A widely successful Dungeons and Dragons
summer camp for kids. From its controversial
beginnings in the 1970s to becoming a cornerstone of modern
geek culture, indie has since become a cultural touchstone,
fostering creativity, storytelling, and deep social
bonds. One story, 1 monster, and one
role at a time, these kids built confidence, collaboration, and
friendship to their shared imagination and adventure.
Let's explore how these timeless game continues to shape young
minds and inspire a sense of wonder as well as hearing about
a local game store became the center of empowerment for a new
generation. It's dungeons, drag, and summer
dreams. How collaborative storytelling
empowers young minds to develop meaningful friendships.
So today I have asked Bethany from my local game store in
Games here in Springfield, IL to join me and talk about this D&D
summer camp. Bethany, how are you?
I'm great. How?
Are you good? So real quick, tell me a little
bit about yourself. How'd you get in AD and D?
And then what is your job title? How do you fit in Titan games?
Right. So as you introduced, I'm
Bethany, I do the social media and invent managing at the Titan
Game stores and I help all the other Titan Game stores with
that as well. And I'm also one of the DMS at
our Springfield location. And I primarily do a lot of the
kids DND, but I also do DND for grown-ups.
I was brought into DND back in college.
I actually started on 3.5 E not knowing that.
Quickly made the switch over to 5 E.
So I didn't even realize it forever and have been playing 5
E since then. And I've played for over 10
years at this point. And I've been Adm for probably,
I think now we're hitting Year 5 or 6 of DME.
Wow, 5 or 6? That's that's incredible.
A lot of years. 10 years of DND. 10 years.
How many of those years were you as a Dungeon Master?
Just the the five. Just the five.
So you were five years just as a player?
Yeah, those are the dates. What is your favorite class and
race? So I'm a forever rogue.
OK I pretty much always 1 trick a rogue particular arcane
trickster. I always say I'm going to play
something else. I never do and I always go for
like gnomes and elves. OK, I can.
Yeah. All right, Because not everyone
plays gnomes. Not everyone plays gnomes.
Elves is a pretty standard pick. Very right, but I don't know,
I've been into the gnomes lately.
So I know recently there was a book published.
I think there's two books now. It's like legends and lattes,
right? Yes, she's an orc.
Yes. Who's retired.
Yes, because she discovered a gnomish beverage that we know is
coffee. I decided to open a coffee shop,
which I think is amazing. It was great.
I read it. I read it as well, and it's
pretty fantastic. And I'm like, I didn't realize
that there were gnomes in the D&D world.
I mean, I shouldn't be surprised.
In all fairness, I have been away from D&D for 30 years.
Maybe. Yeah.
I love TTRPGS, but D&D is just
not. It's not kind of.
It's not like genre, no. But I love storytelling and I
love the idea that Titan hosted this summer camp for kids.
So why don't you tell us a little bit about, like, how did
that idea come into me? Whose idea was it?
Tell me about, like, the what made it before we get into the
actual experience for the kids. Yeah.
So myself and our owner Nick had always talked about wanting
kids, D&D and such, but we just never really quite had the
staff. And then it was actually when we
were attending Gamma, I went to a DND for Kids session.
So I was like, I'm bringing the store and they talked about
summer camp. And I was like, Nick, we've got
to do it. Like it's time, I'm here, let's
go. And I have been running and
opening up my DND sessions that I run one shots every week to
younger and younger audiences. And we started to grow that the
younger audience was consistently coming to those.
And I was like, it's our time. We've got kids showing up for
DND, like let's do it. So I mean, the biggest catalyst
was that that Gamma was at, because we both sat there and
talked about it. We're like, OK, we can do it.
And now we have the staff and we had other people that be here
and could just actually make it happen instead of just be this
idea of like, oh, we'd love to run D&D for kids.
So what were some of the challenges that you found
leading up to the actual execution this summer camp?
Yeah, I think the hardest thing is running D&D for a kids table
and preparing that is entirely different than how I prepare for
a table of adults. Sure.
And like some of the things I started to notice, just like
within my sessions, is that the kids get so excited to do
literally anything besides the quest you have in front of them.
So being prepared for that and then deciding when we did,
because we did the player camp and our DM camp, how we wanted
to split that up, what skills were going to be in that?
So we didn't want them to just come play DND for three hours a
day, right? And like what, what could we
incorporate into that that's not like too advanced or too boring,
but still a cool DND adjacent activities.
I think kind of figuring out the ebb and flow of how the plane
has to work, while also figuring out like, what kind of
activities can we incorporate into these camps that kids are
actually going to have fun doing, right?
So, So what kind of events did you actually have and how did
that work? Like what did what did a
schedule look like for one of your attendees?
Yeah, so during player camp they all got split in.
We had another DM join me and we had two campaigns running at the
same time. So each day they would come and
we'd have like one other DND adjacent activity.
So the first day we did a lot of character building and we worked
on like building connections and building your back story.
Like I did a lot of those like campfire things I actually used
from Daggerheart. They have like the connection
cards now using that and like getting them into it.
And then the next day they came back and we had given them all
in miniature and we had a guest, our master painter came in and
kind of gave them tips to paint their miniature.
And then each day we went through the campaign
consistently. And then the last day we just
had both of us plan these big, you know, encounters for them to
go through it. You know, I had them fight 2
Dragons in one battle and they were so excited 3 and they were
like, wow, we didn't. I was like, yeah.
That is, it's really cool. I mean, I don't, I don't, I find
myself speechless. I'm listening to you and I'm
like, the the fact that you didn't just run a week long
campaign, first of all is incredible.
Kudos to you and your team. That's just amazing.
So there was like character creation.
Did they actually paint the minis?
They did. They did.
A lot of them did. Way better than I tend to do at
Vinnies. Painting a miniature is
difficult. They they must, there must be
little tiny hands they can like really get.
In right, right. Well, that's cool.
So it went what, 5 days? Five days?
Yeah, Three hours each day. OK, three hours.
OK. And we did do like extended drop
off and pick up periods, but then we just had, you know, like
coloring pages and that sort of stuff for them.
But because we did the half day, so we wanted to make sure
parents had time to drop off and whatever their work hours were
and pick up whenever their lunch period kind of.
Was so there was a meal involved or included or?
We did. We do like a small snack.
OK, OK. So we had, you know, muffins and
bananas, and that's cooling. How many attendees?
For our player camp we had 11 in total and for our DM camp it'll
be. 6 so there's going to be there's a DM camp as well, yes
OK, so. Structured entirely different.
OK. So we'll have to talk about that
too. That that's exciting.
So you had 11 kids. What were the What was the age
range? I think our youngest was 8 or 9
and our oldest was 16. 8 or 9 to 16.
So that means that if you want to play DND with your 8 year
old, you in fact can, you can't. So that's that's amazing.
How do you manage the story for the attention span and maybe the
imagination and the comprehension of concepts 8 to
16 year old, They're all in the same campaign together or did
you keep they are OK? No, yeah, we split them up.
OK. We were more heavily weighted
towards the younger kids. We didn't have as many of the
older. So we just ended up splitting
them and like tried to make sure each group had a mixture of the
ages. I would say that how I handle I
won. I did a whole homebrew campaign.
The other DM did do a sourcebook, which I'd be
interested in how he really worked that.
The reason I lean into homebrew is because I will try to think
of like paths. So if here's encounter A,
there's one option that I think will happen here is option B.
And then they kind of just keep making little branches of how
I'm going to get to the end. They often don't use the little
branches prepared. Of course not.
So, you know, I mean, that's part of the, I mean is just, you
know, making it up on the and I think it's just kind of being
prepared that I actually did the least amount of prep and the
loosest amount of outline for the kids and I do for anything
else because it was like the first day I came in with this
massive outline and it was like out the window within the 1st 10
minutes of play. So I was like, what?
That is not unlike an adult's game.
That's that's often true, yeah. So talk to me about, so the
first day you're prepped, you've got an outline and the kids
derail now. So what did that look like as
opposed to adults derailing? I think most of us have played
as adults and we know we kind of know what that looks like.
But you got a group of kids and they derail the story too.
But so like what? What kind of details, what kind
of things attracted them that led the party to go in a
direction you didn't anticipate? Oh.
So the premise of the campaign I had prepared was loosely
inspired by Throne of Glass series, where they were in these
trials, and I said they had to get the ruins from the trials.
So that's a little different than Throne of Glass.
And I was going to have this big reveal of the king and
everything and that was out the window.
First of all, everyone was just like, oh, like Hunger Games.
And I was like, OK, you are locked in The Hunger Games.
So that's how we're going to go about this.
And then the first day, how I had it is like I was going to
have that they need to get the four different elemental rooms,
right? And the first day was like a
festival to kick off the trials because they're there to compete
to get these rooms for their town to re animate the wards or
whatever. And they went to the the
festival. They loved the snail racing, but
then they just wanted to go shopping.
And I was like, no, we, we need to get to the next trial.
And they were very locked into shopping the rest of the
session. I was like, OK, at the end we
had like 10 minutes and I was like, you guys need to just tell
me whatever you want, right? Figure it out.
And I just from then I kind of made it that they would just
wake up in each trial that like, it wasn't an option to do
anything else, but within the trial they could do whatever.
And so like a lot of things is, you know, like I would present a
puzzle to them as part of the trial, right?
I didn't have a solution for the puzzle.
I was just waiting until something sounded good enough.
OK, sure. You know, so which they come up
with a creative idea. It is because I always also,
like, I kind of locked in on like a Riddle during the
festival. And they weren't quite getting
there. Yeah.
And so that's when my mom was like, I'm just going to like
present like a mirror room with like a light beam and, you know,
whenever they make something that makes enough sense.
The mirror is going to back down, so you kind of let them
lead the narrative. Yeah, I did take, I've been
trying to incorporate more like the Daggerheart approach, where
Daggerheart really allows players to have a bit more
impact on the narrative and the DM or GM is to really take that
into account of the story. And I've noticed that using that
particular with kids has been helpful because then they also
like feel cool, like they made some decision and they're like,
yeah, we're going to go do that. And it's like, yeah, you're
going to go do that. Let me prepare that in my brain
real fast. So give me a little bit of
background. Dagger Heart.
Dagger, dagger, heart.
So for myself, I have no idea what that is, and I probably
have listeners who don't either. Tell us a little bit about that.
Yeah, Dagger Heart is the new tabletop RPG, OK, It's created
by the creator's Critical Role. OK, so it's very D&D based,
sure, but there's quite a few differences.
It's definitely more like player driven narratives and there's
like this meta source that like the DM uses instead of like this
hope and fear. But a lot of it operates very
similar to DND. But they've really designed
something that feels like the players have more say of what's
going on then DND, where DND can sometimes feel that like DM
versus player where you know, like it's not supposed to be
that way. But no matter what you do and no
matter how hard you try, like it's always going to have an
element of that because I'm behind the screen and I'm making
the bad things happen, right? Whereas with Daggerhart, the
players say things and things can be happened.
Things can happen as a result of that.
And the DM has this resource that they expend to make the bad
things happen. So I don't use the resource like
in Daggerheart, but I really use that influence of like, ask your
players what kind of trees they see and incorporate those trees
into the story. Kind of like they really let
them have some control of the narrative and what's going on.
That is incredible and I'm surprised that that hasn't been
developed sooner. Yeah, I mean.
Yeah, not not to derail too much my experience, I have really
been enjoying the D20 systems from particularly Star Trek
adventures because it's more my type of genre.
Even the World of Darkness, long time ago to date myself.
You the story the story was very player driven did have a
storyteller but there would never be this US versus him or
her well that I always felt D&D kind of conveyed and was just a
little bit appealing so that was interesting and I was curious to
see how kids interacted with that but I'm really encouraged
by this model and I'm like maybe I want to get back into D and DI
don't know you guys you tell me send me Adm if you guys think I
should get back into D&D yeah there we go yes so was there
tell me what your favorite moment kids are playing my.
Favorite would have been the that final encounter for player
camp. As I said, I have this like one
shot I've developed and I mean, I normally run it through play
at like level 12, but I scale it down where they essentially have
to take all these runes, put them into, you know, the places
on the side or call it from holders, whatever.
And the entire time a dragon is attacking at the same time.
If they defeat the dragon, they get a round of combat to
continue doing stuff. But then a new dragon comes in
because they're just like fake Dragons.
I don't know, you lock the dragon in when you've done all
of the runes and that's how it ends.
And so we've destroyed one dragon.
They're still getting the room together.
I've sent the second dragon. And I mean, the second dragon
still had a lot of like, not a lot of help, but it was it was
still there, right? But then I said it was like weak
ish And the kids looked at the Ranger and this Ranger had been
like pumping out damage. OK, And they're like, this is it
If you get it, I think we're gonna take the dragon down and
the kid goes. And this kid was so cute.
He like would like take his dice and like blow on them every time
for like luck. And then he he rolled it.
It was a Nat 20 and he just did that and I was like okay, I
don't even care how much help you have killed this drag and
it's totally. I love it.
You're.
So excited and that was just a cool moment that I thought that
happened and. How about feedback from?
Have you gotten feedback from the attendees and what it would
it would it seemed to be what aspects did they like the most
and what aspects do they like the least based on the feedback
you've received, I. Think they like playing D&D and
they all like playing D with D with each other.
All the kids have asked can we keep playing together?
OK. And I mean, I've now offered two
additional kids DND one shots and I sent it out to the parents
and they're full within like an hour.
Wow. Like these kids are all so
excited to keep playing this game together.
Wow. Which I think is very cool.
I can't imagine. Well let's be fair, there's a
reason why there's a stereotype that you can never get 5 DND
players adults because they can't get their schedules
together. But even if they can get their
schedule, I can't imagine 11 players together.
How's managing that? Well during the games we did
split so I took five and the other DM took six.
OK, the most I have at a table is 7, OK, which is is quite a
bit. Even with the seven players, it
is kind of a lot. There's a lot more compared to
like adults where you can kind of ask the table questions.
When we are going into something, I'll tell the kids
like, OK, we're going to go talk to this person.
Everyone take one minute and you're going to think of one
question you have for this person.
I like that. So it kind of pulling back.
I used to do a lot of teaching very early childhood music and I
just kind of pull back on all those things that I learned from
the Nair of like, OK, let's all think and then we're gonna go,
okay, you raised your hand. You wanna do something, you
wanna do something, we're all gonna get a chance to do
something, but we all have to go in order.
Okay. So I think there's just like,
it's almost like this element of like classroom management that
has to happen. I could see that, sure.
And kind of encouraging and also frankly, I say the word no a lot
like they can I do that? No, you can't.
Or I'll ask if it's not the first time I've had to say it,
What I'll ask the first time is like, how is that enabling the
story? How is that helping our goal?
Like they say, oh, I want to pickpocket my friend.
Well, we're all friends and we're all working together with
each other. So how would pickpocketing them
right now really help us manage our group dynamic and get
towards our goal today? Interesting.
So in the in my introduction, I had said one of the elements
that I talked about was that these kids developed the ability
for collaboration. And it sounds like you really
work to drive that home, that sense of collaboration.
I'm always a big fan of saying that DND is a game we're all
playing together again. I really try to break that.
Like I'm the DM and I'm against you, right?
Like we're all trying to achieve one goal.
Like I've created something that I want you to get through and
that the kids like we're all at this table together.
So we're here. And I think Halloween that like
connections, like at that beginning when we made them
establish like what is your character connected to this
character by? It does kind of help create
that. Like, OK, we're a group.
This is a group dynamic. We're all here to work together.
Some of them still want to set things on fire.
It's what they're going to do. That is, I know a lot of adults
who just want to set things on fire too.
So how about the? How about the thing they like
the least? I do you think the least
receptive activity would be probably like I found this like
pseudo escape room, but it was really just a bunch of puzzles
that they had to figure out. We kind of let them do it all.
Some of them really liked it and even in my campaign, like when
we were in like the water trial, which was a lot of puzzles.
I feel like a lot of them kind of check out, but there's some
that are like super into it. So it is a bit of a heart of a
balance, but I think that that might be the least well received
thing. So we needed something for them
to do and like get up and move. It was like getting late in the
week and I was like, they need to, they need to work some of
this energy out. I get that, and unfortunately
that only appeals to a certain personality.
There's like a very specific type who's really.
So that's, that's interesting. I like that you did that and you
did some sort of a getting up and moving activity incorporated
into the story, which is just absolutely amazing.
I'd like to see more of that in adult campaign instead of us
like just telling you how we're going to solve a puzzle, put a
puzzle. And yeah, that's that's
fantastic. So one of the things that I've
observed through my experience is you get through particularly
combat, you have an everyone roles initiative, talk about
role initiative. You use that as a metaphor, role
initiative and do this. But unfortunately, while DND is
not turn based, everyone has to take a turn and everyone's got
different attention spans. How was that experience and how
successful do you think it was? The kids were able to stay
focused long enough. Yeah, combat is definitely the
thing that I think is the hardest turn with kids because
of that factor. And because we get so many kids
at every table, I'm not running a table of three or four kids,
right? I just try to keep it moving.
And then when I start to see them lose focus, I will just
often do the teacher thing. And I'm like, hey, what did she
just do over here? What did she just do?
And what can you do in response to that to help the battle?
So like trying to let them actively see that like when
you're in D&D combat, you all have your own turn.
But like, and that's why I do the dragon battle that I was
talking about, because like they all have to work together.
They have to find the runes, they have to put them in the
like obelisks and they have to fight this dragon.
They need to all work together and collaborate on their turns.
Like, OK, if I find this route, you're going to stand over there
and I'm going to I'm going to throw the room to you and you're
going to put it in and I'm going to keep fighting the dragon.
You know, so it gives them a bit more to do, but it's a lot of
just redirecting. I mean, it's just, I mean, even,
you know, table of adults, you get into those 3 hour combats
and like you're just, you're, you're gone, right, right.
So I think it's just like keeping it moving and keeping
the narrative going. And something that I didn't do
quite as much, but this was inspired by that gamma
presentation is like when they describe something like if
there's losing focus, like get them up and like show you how
they do it Now. I only used it like they killed
a creature. I said explain to me, show me
like, how did you just kill this creature?
Because I like to make it like a moment for them.
They got the killing blood, right?
So like, sure, you get to have your big moment, right.
But yeah, just adding in little things to help them.
So fidget toys. I give out fidget toys like
candy and my D&D. Fidget toys.
That's good. That's good advice.
Yeah, that's really great advice.
So. Great.
What about? Well, I guess I should ask this
first. Were any of the kids playing a
more social character rather than a physical one?
Some. Do so you did have the Bard or
the charismatic whatever. So I'm thinking about how you're
in a scene and you know, it's it's the you're in the bar,
you're or you're in the you're in the Tavern or you're in The
Cave and you're talking to the old man or the Prince or whoever
sends you in your quest or wherever, right.
And then that tends to be kind of difficult for the more
physical characters to be paying attention.
How did you manage those scenes? So when we go somewhere, First
off, some of my kids are probably my best role players at
the table, OK? Like, they get into it, they're
locked in. Yeah, And they're like, I have
this girl who insists on being a mouse every time.
She uses her mouse voice every time, always talks in character.
Incredible for everyone. I think it's a lot of that,
Like, think of what you might be doing.
And I just go around like, what are you doing right now?
What are you doing right now? And then I kind of rotate around
and say, OK, you 2 are going over to the bar, Let's figure
that out. What are you 3 going to be
doing? OK, why don't you guys think of
what you're going to do? We're going to play this out.
We'll come back to you. OK, so I feel like I give them a
lot of space to kind of think about it and always ask them
like, what are you doing? Because like it helps remind
them that like at all points, your character is doing
something in game. And even if you're one that kind
of wants to stay behind, like maybe the character isn't
talking, but they're looking around and trying to find
someone who's useful or they're trying to observe someone at the
Tavern who might have weighted dice that they can try to swipe
or whatever kind of appeals to them.
Kind of give them something to do without making them
necessarily have to talk in character if they're just like
not quite there, but I try like I don't do voices for my adults.
I am not a voice DM, but I will for the kids to make them feel
comfortable doing silly stuff at the table because like I have
two voices probably. I have a high pitched fairy and
like kind of a man voice, but like not really.
So that's what they get and. So it's funny, but my listeners
are going to be really mad if I don't.
Can you? Can you?
Can you do them just? Okay, the fairy boy.
Yeah. And then if it's like an old,
old, old person or man, the kind of one together, Yeah.
Are you getting there? Okay.
Oh, my God, that's great. Thank you for sharing that.
That is incredible. I love that.
Oh my God, that's. That's too much.
That is too much. Yeah.
That's so the key seems to be keeping them moving, keeping
them engaged, thinking about what they're going to do in the
next scene or when it's their turn or something like that.
That's, that seems to be really important.
What other if let's say anyone's watching or listening and
they're thinking about playing DND with the kids or any any
other piece of advice that you've gleaned from this
experience like this is a must. I would just say like go in with
almost no expectations for what's going to happen.
Like kind of just know that it's going to be whatever.
And that's kind of what's fun with the kids is that they, they
just bring so much like spark and spontaneity to the table.
Whereas like, you know, adults like focus and they're like,
we're going to go get the sword and they're going to go get the
sword where the kids are like we're going to do this and also
do this. And I'm going to take this weird
approach to get there. He's going to be like, all
right, we're going for it. I'm.
Going to get the sword, I'm going to dig the hole, but I'm
going to go upstairs and that's how I'm going to do it.
One kid didn't want like I ran a temple thing where they had to
go in the temple and break the curse and it was in the ocean.
The kids like, I don't want to go.
And I was like, OK, well, we have to go, right?
And I looked at the other tables like, does anyone want to help
them go? And the one kid just like, yeah,
I'm going to grab them so they can go with us.
And I was like, thank you. So you kind of just, OK, let
them do things and you let them have their moments.
Like every kid and adult wants to set things on fire.
I have created opportunities where that is the appropriate
response and I let them set things on fire.
OK, so let's talk about the the kid who's like, I'm going to
grab him so he can come. Yeah.
So those types of player interactions.
Do you allow them or make them roll their dice for that to see
if they? If it is helping the story, I
kind of just let it happen. If it's against the story, I
would make them roll OK. So again, that situation, like
we just needed to convince this player to not sit on the beach.
OK. And that was the way they were.
And they were just having one of those days.
You know, kids have those days. They do.
So I was just like, OK, Yep, you do that, right?
Yeah. But like, if they were like,
well, I want to try to do this. At first I ask how is that
enabling like a group dynamic, right.
And then if it's still something that's like, OK, but like the
other players like, well, I don't really want to do that,
then I make them roll. OK.
But because kids like to roll, I would never do that in adult
table. No, absolutely not.
You know, like adults have learned that, like, you are
going to do what your character wants to do and that's how it's
going to go. But with the kids, it's just
they just want to roll. And if they roll, in a way, I
just kind of try to make it narrative in a way that makes
sense for both of the characters so the other kid doesn't feel
like you're making them do something they don't want to do.
Right. How do you handle consequences?
Because sometimes, because sometimes you roll that Nat one
and you fail the test, right? And kids are more, not more.
They're just emote differently. And they really don't want to
roll the Nat one. There's a lot of kids.
I have had so many kids. Quite literally, they'll roll
their dice and then they just flip it like right in front of
me. Like I got it.
That's funny. Like I literally just watched
you roll that. You do not.
OK, all right, so how? I tend to handle it is first of
all, even with adults I don't do like the critical fails or the
critical fumbles. OK.
I take all skill checks to generally be how the skill is
received. OK, unpack that for a little
bit. So like if you're talking to
someone and you want to talk to the shopkeeper and they're
saying this is 20 gold and you say I want it to be 18 gold,
first I ask how do how are you asking?
And the second after I have that.
So I have their approach and I have my NPC's vibe.
Once they roll, it's against what that NPC would react.
So like, if you roll in at 20, they're probably going to react
positively. Unless there's a possible task,
like you can't convince the dragon to just not fight you,
the Dragon's going to fight you. But if you try to do that and
you roll a dice check of 19 or 20, the Dragon's not going to
eat you. He'll fight you, but not.
He's going to fight you, but he's not going to eat you and
he's not going to get mad that you tried to tell him whatever.
So like on that one just means like, yeah, you went up to the
shopkeeper and maybe you like stuttered through it and they
just couldn't understand what you were saying.
You just got nervous and you were just like, I think it
should be 8 tinkled and the shock he'd be like what?
What did he say? I can't hear you.
You got to speak up because then also kind of gives them an
opportunity. To try to re roll so that.
Which is another thing I don't do with adults, but I do with.
Sure. No, I it's a totally different
there's. A lot of roles that I say no
with adults, but with kids, no, I let it happen.
Sure, but you still are. You're you're allowing them to
re roll. Yeah, but you're doing it in
such a way that it's woven into the narrative.
So like if it were a movie or a television series and I'm
watching it, I could see this kid mumble and then he's like,
what? I can't hear you.
I you could see that, you see that visually and that's, that's
good. So I tried to do that unless
it's something that they're going to fail, then I just say
like you don't execute this. And something I constantly
remind them that the Nat 20s are only cool because of the Nat
ones, correct? Like it is not cool to get a Nat
20 over and over again because then it's going to like lose its
flavor. Exactly.
But like because you rolled that two or that three or that Nat
one, like the next time when you get the Nat 20, like that's when
it's super cool. What if you make a big deal
about they roll a Nat 11? Why does the 20 and the why does
the one in the 20 have to be so special?
I mean, I, I understand why, but still, right.
That's that's that. So that that's that is some
really great. That sounds like a great
experience. Yeah, seems like it was
rewarding for you as well as the kids.
So you mentioned there's DM camp?
DM. Camp, OK.
Now for those of you listening, so we just had Gen.
Con and it just passed. But at the time of this
recording, the DM camp has not has not yet occurred.
So everything that we're about to talk about has happened by
the time you're listening, but has not yet happened by the time
we talk about it. So we can only talk about what
your expectations are and what your plans are.
So tell us a little bit about this DM summer camp.
And it is it. It's also kids as well, OK?
Older range, which kind of makes sense.
Sure. And I'm actually like, I think I
might be more excited for this camp because I just really love
like teaching other people how to DM and like getting other
people to be this person because I think it's really fun.
Also, the more of us there are, the more of us that we get to
play every once in a. While that is true, DMS never
get to play. Never get to play, but so how
we're kind of loosely sitting up at this point is we're going to
have like outlines of one shots and throughout the week, the
kids are going to learn various skills to kind of flesh out that
one shot. And the goal is at the end of
the week, they'll run it for me and the other DM and the other
campers. So these all be shorter, but
we're going to work on things like they'll get a miniature,
but it'll be a monster miniature instead this time.
And we want to do like map making.
So we'll have them draw out a map and like go over like how
you mark different things on the map and some ways to do that.
And we're going to like touch on world building and how to like
create and like flesh out that narrative as you're going there.
And then doing things like how to set a dice check.
Like when you do that, like how do you evaluate that on the fly
or read a monster stat block or modify the monster stat block to
fit what you're gonna run? Because I think that those are
like some of the major things that VMS have to do all of the
time that don't often get like looked at is that you can run AI
ran Dragons for level threes. I just modified the heck out of
those stat blocks, right? So teaching them that they can't
make whatever work for whatever table they want.
It's kind of the goal of the camp.
So there's no campaign. There's I don't think at this
point we really plan to run anything.
We might run like all one shot for them just so they can like
see us. But most of these kids came to
player camp, right? So like they know.
So that's kind of what we're going for is kind of really
developing those skills to that they can go home and run a one
shot or like start creating their own campaigns, working it
out and prepare or like grab one of the books off the shelf and
like be ready to like know what that book is saying and they
could go run it for their friends.
How many attendees do you currently have?
6/6. So it's a smaller group which I
think actually will work really well.
And the youngest? I think the youngest is like 11
or 12. OK.
I don't think 10 and under is. Right, OK, but still that's.
Still still younger. That's that's a that's a heavy
lift for anyone, let alone an 11 year old.
Yeah. What are you?
What do you hope? What are you hoping for?
I know what you're hoping for, Marty, but, like, how are you
preparing for that? Because this is different.
Teach. Yeah.
So what are you doing to prepare for this?
So I mean, we're still meeting to kind of figure it out.
The other DM who's helping me has like kind of like crowd
sourced like from other DMS that we all know.
Like what is the one thing you think Adm needs to know?
Which some have been pretty good.
Some are like, OK, are these still our kids that you know,
and kind of figuring out like the steps when I prepare, like a
one shot, Like what what am I doing when I prepare?
And then what happens when I'm in game?
Because like the preparation part is the easy part of DM in,
in my opinion, it's the end game when things are not going the
way things need to go. And how do you modify and switch
things around to make the game still feel good without that?
So the preparation part is the fun part because you get to like
craft your world and craft your one shot and craft the
narrative. But I would say that the hard
part is the when you're behind the screen and your players
suddenly run off and do whatever and set fire to the pirate ship
or whatever and you're just like, what now?
There's the treasure going in the, the sea.
How do I help? Right.
Yeah. So let's say I'm you've had this
thought. I've had this conversation for
countless years. I've had this observations made
and I can even see I can see these kids asking the same
question as well. Why should IDM?
Why don't I just go home and write a story?
That's a great question, right. So this is, I mean, this is
something that I've recently kind of dealt with myself part.
I like the collaborative storytelling, sure of it, where
like, I'm not necessarily writing a book, like I've
created this world and these ideas of things that will
happen, but the actual happenings are still up to
players. And I think it's fun to have
that input. Whereas like, yeah, I can go
home and write a book and I can, you know, write out this whole
story that I have in my head. And no player can disrupt that
story. It's.
True, that's very true. There's no derailing of my book.
Absolutely. I'm writing however I think
like, I mean, just the social aspect and that's you get to do
something different and the role-playing aspect just adds to
it. Like, who doesn't want to
pretend they're a little gnome rogue, I mean.
No, I get that. I I definitely get that.
So what about two-part question? One is, have you thought about
this yourself? Yeah.
And two, are you prepared to talk about it if one of your
attendees to the DM camp asked this very question?
Maybe they don't articulate it in this way, but have you ever
gotten yourself so fixated on building your world and you make
it way more complicated? You know, the players aren't
going to appreciate that this this character who appears for
five seconds in this underwater temple is like really the person
in charge of this thing And and they may or may not ever
experience right. So you can you can get really
bogged down in your narrative. You can't.
I've seen a lot of my friends, a lot of DMS, storytellers, this
happens and they bunk screwed. I'm just gonna write a book and
maybe or maybe they don't get published as a published writer.
I have seen some of them publish their stuff, self publish of
course, but so that So have you experienced that and how would
you handle that if the kids asked the same thing?
So I would say that yes, there's been some experience and
actually my experience has been worse when I'm using like the
actual DND source material really, because I get so like
locked in to what that book has said.
Oh sure. And I mean, I can think of what
I mean. This is an adult's, but I was
running cursive Strad and they ran into this werewolf den and
just like assassinated this woman werewolf who was praying
and like she was like their more connection.
She was their Lord drop and they just, they just killed her.
And that was one of the moments where I mean I just turned to
them and I, I was like all of you out five minutes because I
need we need to reevaluate what's going on here.
So I do think that there's value in recognizing if you as Adm are
running something and like you're just stuck like take 5
minutes with your group or like if it's closer to like end the
session and give yourself time to refigure it out.
Like you don't you don't have to do whatever you were set out to
do. But as far as like, well, I
really have this really cool idea.
Like if you have a really cool idea and you only want One
Direction for it, then like, yes, you should write a book.
But if you want this like, collaborative storytelling
experience with your friends, then that's what D&D is.
Yeah. So like, you are looking for
this experience. You're not looking for the
story. And like, yeah, it's really cool
that if I can write this really cool moment for my friends to
have, like that's so cool. But like, and like, if I've made
the world like they're already having a great time.
They're playing in your world. They're probably having a great
time. I know it's common for DMS to be
like, but did you have fun? Did you did you like it?
Like I asked my husband that every time he played Z&D with
me. Was it fun?
Did you have a good time? The kids are much more
forthcoming with that information.
So that's that's great. But.
Man, this was stupid. Sometimes they were.
Yeah, but. Then you know when the at the
end of the camp, when the kid goes like, thank you so much for
running such a great adventure. He hugged me.
I was like, hey. That's amazing.
But I would say that's a different and you can do pull
right. Like I like write my own home
brew. I do a lot of one shots.
I have some campaigns in the works.
I have one campaign that I finished and then at the same
time, like I am trying to write my own little fantasy book
because like I like to do that and I don't want anyone to
disrupt that story. I have a very clear vision for
that story. Well, and you're creative so
that that makes. Sense you can use both outlets.
So I want to talk about map, map maps, map making cartography.
OK, so for the for the DM camp. Yeah.
Are you using graph paper? Are you using gridded paper?
Is it free form? Because there are a lot of
opinions. There are a lot of opinions
about maps and how they should be redrawing.
My God, there's. Which is ridiculous, right?
Get me to point A&B. Let me know where I'm at.
I don't need all that. So what is?
Yeah, there you go. What's the map making event
going to look like? So I use I like a big like desk
pad of just like 1 by 1 inch grid paper.
And so that's what I'm going to be bringing because I want them
to be able to use this. And that's the standard.
I I mean, I'm an advocate for hex maps.
Sure, I think they're great. I think they make movement a lot
more sense because you're not thinking, well, if I move
diagonal, technically I'm moving more than 5 feet because math,
but right, no, thank you. So we'll just kind of base it
and like what I want is just they're going to make like an
encounter room. So it's not going to be a whole
like like what I envisioned like in a dungeon or anything like
that. Like I want them to look at the
one shots that we give them the outlines and say, OK, this this
is the part that's going to need the map, right?
And kind of draw out your map and draw like what what
obstacles are going to be in the room?
And is this part going to be higher?
Is this part going to be lower? Like kind of that.
So very simple, very simple map. OK, Nothing like a big world,
anything like. That right are there, is there
homework ahead of time there? Is not.
No. So they're coming in cold.
Coming in cold and you're gonna I'm.
Sure, they'll have ideas. Well, they will.
They always have ideas. Which is why they've signed up
for the for the event. So what?
So you have map making, you're going to give them a larger
miniature. They're going to paint that with
the paint master as well. You're going to talk.
So there was a lot of, what I heard was a lot of concepts,
yeah, a lot of world building, things of that nature.
So what? So are you going to run?
You have 6 attendees, so will there be 6-1 shots they're each
going to run? And will the players be the
other DM attendees for each of their one shots?
So the pressure is really on for both the first DM who's at it
cold and the last who's seen the previous 5, right?
That is always the worst. Like as as a podcaster when I'm
interviewing like game designers, like I had a, there
was a game designer and I, I was his first meeting of the con.
And I'm like, man, there's a lot of pressure here because I'm
setting the tone and everyone else is just going to be like
blow me out of the water or whatever.
But I can feel that. How do you foresee managing
those emotions that might come up?
What I, I think is hopefully I think we will try to split them
into two smaller groups, so groups of four with one and one
of us and that me and the other DM will be there to kind of
prompt and help. I'm the same way when I help
adults. I'm really encouraging a lot of
my friends to be DMS and what I say is like, OK, well you were
on a one shot. Like this is the group we play
with every week. I'm going to be right here.
If you get stuck, I'm going to jump in and help you until you
tell me if you're ready to go again.
OK, nice. And so I'm anticipating using
that method, but I think like, I think being nervous is OK.
Like it's, it's scary. I mean, I'm damn for six years
or whatever, I still get nervous, especially when it's
something I've written. Like if it's a sourcebook, I can
blame the sourcebook if it's bad.
But if if I'm running it and it's bad, like that's on me.
Like I created that encounter. I get that.
I totally understand that. Nervous and I think just letting
them know that and like. I totally understand that.
That makes perfect sense. Yeah.
That's that's awesome.
So are there any anything else that you're really excited
about? Looking forward to this DM camp.
No, I as far as DM camp, I mean, we've kind of covered a lot of.
It I think you did, yeah. So you're gonna be a Gen.
Con? I am going to be a Gen.
Con. OK, so here's my recommendation
to those of you. Unfortunately, you're listening
to this after the fact, but hopefully you've seen Bethany.
She'll be a Gen. Con and she can tell you all
about what happened during this camp or you can, you know, reach
out. So tell people where they can
find you both on your socials and Titan games.
Yeah, so my Titan Games e-mail is
justbethanybethany@titangames.com. You're welcome to find me on
social, though. The best 1 is going to be
Instagram and that is just at Bethany the Bard.
Because Bethany is the Bard. I am the Bard.
Even though she's a gnome. Rogue.
Yeah, in real life, I'm a Bard. In real life, she's a Bard.
The. Indie I'm a rogue.
Yes. Also want to say for those of
you who are watching this on Spotify or YouTube, we are in
fact at Titan Games. We're in one of the two rooms
that was used in the summer camp.
This is the tree room. So Bethany, thank you so much
for giving us the space. There's another room just to my
right here, which is the, what do we call it, the Tavern Tavern
room. I will say that putting up this
wallpaper is a challenge. It was most fun I've ever.
Had, yeah, no, but you and I put up the Tavern wallpaper and that
was a real challenge. But thank you again for the
space and talking about this experience.
I think this is great. Guys, please make sure to like
and subscribe. And we're trying to reach 100
subscribers by October when our YouTube channel will be a year
old. You should be flying back or
driving back from Gen. Con as you're listening to this,
so make sure to spread the word, add, make sure to be kind to
each other and play more games.