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Hey guys, and welcome to episode
158 of Maple to Maple. 

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Today I'm talking with an indie 
tabletop publisher out of the UK

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that has been sharing a really 
transparent look at what it's 

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actually like to design and 
publish games right now. 

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If you've been following them on
Instagram, you've probably seen 

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just how hands on and personal 
their journey is, from early 

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prototypes, artwork, play 
testing, production updates, and

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the inevitable highs and lows of
indie game development. 

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Their latest project is Time 
Troopers, a solo campaign deck 

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building game that sends players
jumping through history on 

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dangerous missions to protect 
the timeline. 

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It's ambitious, narrative 
driven, it's clearly a passion 

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project, and a true favorite of 
our friends from Get Into Games.

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In this episode, we're going to 
dig into the experience of 

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designing Time Troopers, what 
it's like being an indie 

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publisher in the UK, and how 
they balance their creativity, 

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constraints, and the community 
while bringing any game to life.

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Today I've got Lee from Mullen 
Arias Games. 

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Lee, how are you? 
Great. 

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Thank you. 
Thanks for having me on the 

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show. 
I'm excited to be here. 

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Yeah, I have been hearing about 
you and your game for a while 

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now, obviously from Craig and 
Becky from getting the games and

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she's really been hyping up the 
game. 

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Yeah, I think Becky's probably 
our number one super fan, which 

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has been very handy having 
someone who's so vocal about it 

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on with their own podcast. 
So yeah, it it's great. 

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And we have a little VIP group 
as well with on Facebook with 

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quite a few people and and, and 
she contributes regularly on 

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there as well. 
So she's she's a lady of great 

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taste, apart from her choice in 
husband maybe. 

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Sorry. 
Yeah, yeah, Craig, it's, you 

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know, what are you going to do? 
But thanks for thanks for coming

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on and and being willing to 
Share your story. 

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I'm really excited. 
Hey, tell me a little bit. 

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I want to start a little bit 
about you and your personal 

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journey. 2 questions that I 
have. 

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First one is it was the very 
first board game you ever played

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as a child. 
And then second, what was the 

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board game that got you into the
modern hobby that eventually LED

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you to becoming a designer? 
So, yeah, I think it's quite a 

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boring story, same as as 
everyone else. 

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I think as a child we played 
lots of lots of games. 

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I can't remember the first one, 
but it was always like an 

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operation and unfortunately 
Monopoly and and the Trivial 

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Pursuit in the USI think you 
call it sorry, over here we call

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it something else. 
Yeah, with that, with that 

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device that you pop in the 
middle as well. 

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So yeah, tons of games. 
But one of my favourites was who

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was Hero Quest. 
That was kind of the the 

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transition into rather than just
playing on a wet Sunday 

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afternoon, all of a sudden that 
was something that you could 

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proper escape the world and 
throw yourself into as a child. 

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I remember playing that thinking
games will never get any better 

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than this. 
This is fantastic. 

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Yeah. 
And my first foray into kind of 

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painting models with correction 
fluid and and and things. 

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As well. 
In terms of how I became a 

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modern gamer, obviously as as I 
as I got older, I played a lot 

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of sports and kind of moved away
from, from games a little bit 

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and then back to to college and 
university. 

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We would play a lot of Risk and,
and kind of games and then got 

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back into it that way. 
And so I was always interested 

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in it but had no money being a 
student. 

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And then after graduating, I 
played with my friend Mark and 

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he introduced me to Catan, which
of course is a very easy gateway

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game that everyone plays. 
And again, I was like, oh, this 

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is great mind. 
Just takes you right back to 

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being a child again, that kind 
of cooperative element of you 

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all being around the table and 
fighting to see who was going to

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be the winner. 
And then the more difficult 

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games I tried, the the more I 
got into them, probably 

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accumulating with me playing my 
first Gloom Haven campaign. 

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And from there, I kind of 
thought, yeah, this is 

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fantastic, it's not going to get
any better than this. 

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And so yeah, that that was kind 
of how I got into it. 

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And then it just got stronger 
and stronger from there, really.

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So at what point did you decide 
to go from being a gamer to a 

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game? 
Like diving into game design? 

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Like how long has that process 
been for you it? 

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Wasn't, I've done forecast 
before. 

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It wasn't a deliberate decision.
So I worked, I had a very 

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corporate job. 
I, I worked in, in health, in 

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healthcare industry and I was a 
finance director travelling 

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backwards and forwards to the US
and, and other countries across 

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Europe. 
And I was away from home like 3 

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weeks out of four. 
And then that kind of takes its 

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toll on you after after a long 
time of climbing that career 

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ladder. 
Sure, yeah. 

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Yeah. 
And then in 2020, I was due to 

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move to, to the US to Chicago 
full time. 

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And this pesky thing called 
COVID started to happen. 

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And we were told though it'll 
be, they'll be over in a couple 

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of weeks, don't worry about it. 
So we were selling a house and 

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everything else. 
And then obviously it didn't 

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happen. 
And it, and it as it, as it 

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transitioned it, it kind of 
stopped me from from moving to 

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the US. 
But what it did do was change my

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aspects, my kind of thought 
process about what I wanted from

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life. 
And I was lucky enough to think 

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to myself, OK, I'm going to take
a break from the corporate grind

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and just take some time to 
myself and think about what I 

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want to do away from this. 
And in the background to that, 

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we'd gone on vacation quite a 
few times to a place in the UK 

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called the Lake District, which 
I was explaining before. 

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It's it's at one of our national
parks, similar to to 

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Yellowstone, but not as 
grandiose. 

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But we just loved going there 
and me and my wife. 

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And so I just for fun, really 
designed a game that out of beer

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maps that we could play in the 
in the pub. 

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And so the dog was sat down and 
we were drinking wine and 

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playing this game that I'd made.
And then people just kept coming

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to the table saying, excuse me, 
what's, what's this game you're 

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playing? 
And I was like, oh, it's just a 

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game that we've made-up. 
And they're like, could we sit 

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and join you? 
So I was like, yeah, OK. 

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And so for my wife's birthday, I
kind of surprised her with a 

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prototype, which which I hadn't 
locked up and made. 

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And then the next time we went, 
we had lots of people around the

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table. 
And all of a sudden I thought 

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there could be kind of a gap in 
the market, a very special niche

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in the market for this game. 
So Fast forward four years and 

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it's in supermarkets all up in 
that area of the, of the world. 

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And it's in the gift shops and 
everything else. 

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And, and we've sold, you know, 
thousands and thousands of 

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copies of that game. 
And that was kind of my 

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introduction into, into the 
gaming world. 

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But I had no kind of formal 
training in, in what I was 

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doing. 
It's a very basic game if if 

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you're a player. 
But what it did do is give me an

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introduction into, yeah, this is
what I want to do with my life. 

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And at the same time I was 
enjoying more and more playing 

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games and with my business and 
finance background, the kind of 

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the things which I think hold 
some people back from designing 

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their own game, Like what do I 
do about tax? 

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I do, I've set up my own 
company. 

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You know, how do I find a 
manufacturer? 

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I I already had all of that 
experience. 

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So it wasn't, I think as as 
scary for me to do the business 

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and the admin side. 
So, yeah, I suddenly thought 

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that that could be there could 
be a career in this and that 

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could be a company I could set 
up. 

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And so we did. 
Yeah, that we kind of dived head

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first. 
We were into doing a Kickstarter

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as well and everything else. 
And I think it's a good job. 

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I didn't know what I was letting
myself in first. 

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I might not have have have done 
it. 

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And I think I was incredibly 
naive. 

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And then I look back at some of 
the mistakes we've made, which 

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just cost us a lot of money and 
a lot of time. 

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But it's it's a learning curve. 
But what the one great thing I 

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would say that if you would say 
what's the best thing that's 

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happened to send me out of this 
is my quality. 

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What was the best thing that 
ever happened to you out of 

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this? 
You're such a good interview. 

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I think my quality of life is 
better, but also the people, the

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community and the kind of the 
customer base and the people you

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interact with, the suppliers, 
people like yourself. 

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And the kind of industry as a 
whole is so much friendlier than

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that kind of cutthroat corporate
world that even like chatting to

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other indie publishers, 
everyone's helping each other. 

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And that just wouldn't happen in
the in the business world. 

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So it's stressful, of course, 
but it always feels like it's a 

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community that I'd never thought
existed until I got into it. 

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And I thought everyone is so 
great in this community. 

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And don't get me wrong with 
still the odd comment from 

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Kickstarters and things which 
which which upset me. 

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But yeah, I've listened to your 
shows and that it's so positive.

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People are generally more 
positive in this industry than 

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other industries. 
I've heard that a lot from both 

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publishers and designers, like 
there's a lot of support as 

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opposed to other industries, 
people like yourself who came 

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from 1 industry and entered this
one. 

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So it sounds like the take away 
is you could be on vacation 

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where no matter what, it doesn't
matter where you are, you're 

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going to find inspiration to 
design your own game, right? 

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Like I think. 
So yeah, not not in your own 

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game. 
Like there'll be people 

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listening who are good at 
graphic design or good at 

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artwork or good at music. 
And if, if this is an industry 

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you're interested in, then just 
pursue it and send some, some, 

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some work to some people. 
And if you think it's something 

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you want to do, then then do it.
Life's too short not to at least

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have a go. 
I think a lot of time people are

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a little bit embarrassed. 
They think, oh, my work's not 

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good enough and you don't have 
to give it a go. 

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So, so why not? 
Why have you got to lose? 

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Yeah, there it is, guys. 
Lee Miller just told you life is

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too short. 
You don't have anything to lose,

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so go for it. 
I mean, no truer or inspiring 

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words have been said, so I love 
that. 

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Thank you. 
That's, that's good. 

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And, and all the people we've 
worked with as well along the 

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way, a lot of then it's like 
they're like first time in doing

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something like we've, we've 
signed games to our, to our 

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label and it's like we have two 
first time designers who have 

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signed with us. 
And we have, you know, new 

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artist Tim Mcclay, who does the 
music for, for time Troopers. 

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It's the first time he's ever 
composed his own music scores, 

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which is good for us because it 
means we're getting very cheap. 

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Right. 
But also it's something people 

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are grateful to be given the 
opportunity to to do these 

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things as well. 
And so again, it plays into that

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community spirit of we're all 
trying to build something 

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altogether. 
Right. 

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Hey, so since you brought it up,
let's let's talk about that. 

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You, you commissioned a 
soundtrack for Time Troopers and

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you can listen to it on Spotify.
Tell me about that process. 

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What? 
First of all, why bother, right?

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Know what? 
Not every board game designers 

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like I need a soundtrack for my 
board game. 

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So I guess that's the first 
question. 

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And then what was that process 
like? 

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Yeah, so the decision came about
because we on a Sunday, I get 

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together with with people from 
the company, but also my friends

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as well. 
And we always listened to music 

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like we were playing the Witcher
board game. 

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And so we were listening to like
bar music from from that 

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soundtrack and everything else. 
And, and I think a large 

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percentage, I think it was like 
70% of people listened to 

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something when they're when 
they're gaming and that and 

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that's great. 
But then I was watching a scary 

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movie, waiting for the, like, 
jump scares. 

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And I thought, imagine if you 
were playing a scary board game 

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00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,920
and the publisher was in control
of when the jump scare music 

226
00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,760
came on. 
Because like, we were playing a 

227
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,520
game called Subterra. 
I don't know if you know, it's 

228
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,720
like a little white. 
Yes, yeah. 

229
00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:38,680
And so we used to make our own 
sound effects when someone would

230
00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:41,520
get trapped by gas or whatever 
it, whatever it was. 

231
00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,840
And so that was in my thought 
process as well. 

232
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,760
And so I, I'd always had music 
in the back of my mind, but I 

233
00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,080
didn't know whether it would 
work on a board game. 

234
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,240
So Fast forward to when we did 
Time Troopers. 

235
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,720
And because it's a solo game or 
you can play cooperatively as 

236
00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,040
well. 
But when we started the design 

237
00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,040
process, it was going to be a, a
solo game. 

238
00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:05,560
And so I wanted it to be a 
completely immersive experience,

239
00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:07,640
because if you're playing 
something solo, you can put your

240
00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:08,840
headphones on and listen to 
music. 

241
00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:13,000
But what I wanted was not just 
to listen to other people's 

242
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,600
music, but I wanted just to be 
in control of what music you 

243
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,920
listened to. 
So that if the mission I knew 

244
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,400
was going to get harder and 
harder and harder, we could 

245
00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,480
build the tempo of the music to 
become more kind of intense 

246
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,160
towards the end. 
And we were in control of people

247
00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,560
listening to that. 
So the first time you played, 

248
00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:32,160
you wouldn't know that. 
And so it would completely 

249
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,080
immerse you also the the kind of
cultures of time troopers. 

250
00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,520
So you're travelling to all 
these different eras in the 

251
00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,560
past. 
As you say, the music when 

252
00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:47,360
you're in ancient Japan and the 
music when you're in kind of the

253
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,720
Mongolian Empire and, and when 
you're in Egypt needs to have 

254
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,640
different instruments. 
It needs to have a different 

255
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,200
tone and everything. 
So what I didn't want was people

256
00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,360
listening to their own music and
then, you know, the theme tune 

257
00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,840
from Happy Days was on while 
someone was was fighting 

258
00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,960
sunrise, which which could 
happen. 

259
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,840
So it kind of became a what if 
project. 

260
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:12,760
But as you say, not everyone 
listens to music. 

261
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,720
So it had to accompany the game.
It couldn't take over the game. 

262
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,200
So we couldn't have instructions
in there, we couldn't have 

263
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:20,960
anything else. 
It just needed to be something 

264
00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,440
which gave you an extra level of
immersion. 

265
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,720
And Tim Clay, who's a music 
producer and, and works with us 

266
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,440
on the stand, we would reached 
out to him, say, how would we go

267
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,360
about this? 
He said he would give it a go. 

268
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,160
And he did like a little 20 
minute sample for us. 

269
00:13:38,680 --> 00:13:41,200
And so we said, yeah, can we 
have 26 of those? 

270
00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,520
Well, each one lasting 45 
minutes, please. 

271
00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,560
And when he picked himself up 
the floor, he, he, he agreed, 

272
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:54,200
yeah, that that process has very
much been give Tim the missions 

273
00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,200
because not only does it have to
have the right instruments, but 

274
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,840
have to have the right feel. 
So some of the missions will be 

275
00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:00,720
battling. 
So you want, you know, to hear 

276
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,960
clashing swords and you want to 
hear wardrooms and things in the

277
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,200
background. 
But then some of the missions, 

278
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,160
like in, in Egypt, you have to 
sneak past guards into a tomb. 

279
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,560
So you've got kind of this 
eerie, you can hear the flames 

280
00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:14,440
licking and it's an eerie under 
score. 

281
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,120
We gave Tim 3 or 4 different 
missions and explained to him 

282
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,720
and sat down and he played the, 
the early prototypes and then he

283
00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,040
went, OK, I'll go away and work 
on the music. 

284
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,400
As soon as we got that first 
track back, it just blew us 

285
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,960
away. 
And, and because this is the 

286
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,000
first time Tim's done this as 
well, he, he just went the extra

287
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,120
mile with everything. 
And, and so there was I think 

288
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,840
one out of 26 tracks where we 
went, this is not quite right. 

289
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,400
Everything else we were just, Oh
my God, it's amazing. 

290
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,720
And listening to it while you're
playing the game as well. 

291
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,880
For us, it just makes the hair 
on the back of your neck stand 

292
00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,280
up when we were playing and then
we were getting really excited 

293
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,080
about it. 
And so we put this, some of 

294
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,000
these soundtracks out to our 
time. 

295
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,600
Trooper VIPs, what do you think?
And everyone's like, this is 

296
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,560
great. 
This is what we why don't all 

297
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,440
games do this? 
And so, yeah, we kind of 

298
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,960
unfortunately, I think we've set
the bar for ourselves on on what

299
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,400
we do going forward. 
So yeah, I, you had sent me the 

300
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,680
link, so I was able to listen to
the music and soundtrack and it 

301
00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:16,080
was and it was, it was cool. 
However, I have never seen a 

302
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,160
prototype. 
I didn't have the game in front 

303
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,360
of me. 
So there was no context, right? 

304
00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,640
So I'm just like, so here was my
here's my question. 

305
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,680
I was thinking about this in 
terms of the tempo, right? 

306
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,960
Because players play at 
different speeds, right? 

307
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,440
So if I were playing time 
troopers and I select the 

308
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,680
appropriate track to go along 
with it, I know you said like 45

309
00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:44,280
minutes. 
Like how well is that synced up 

310
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:49,200
with the player experience? 
Yeah, so Tim's done a great job 

311
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,520
of what the scope we gave to him
was. 

312
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,080
Everything has happened in the 
1st 5 to 10 minutes, but nothing

313
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,960
exciting has to happen in the 
1st 2 minutes because players 

314
00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,000
are reading how to set up the 
rules, they're reading the game.

315
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,600
They're they're getting 
everything set up. 

316
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,320
So you want to be immersed 
immediately in the in the 

317
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,560
context, but what you don't want
is to miss something exciting. 

318
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,240
What Tim came back to us and 
said was players shouldn't even 

319
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,440
notice that the music's on. 
So they shouldn't be listening 

320
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,560
to it saying, oh, I really like 
that part of the music. 

321
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,040
It should just be happening as 
they're playing the game. 

322
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:27,240
And so he has this, he did a 
very good job of playing the 

323
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,440
quiet notes as as musicians call
them, which is, which is allow 

324
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,600
the game to settle and allow it 
to be subtle. 

325
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,880
So the first 5 minutes kind of 
welcomes you to the world. 

326
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:41,960
And then because it's a 45 
minute track, it's on loops, so 

327
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,680
it will be like, it might be 
like a 10 minute crescendo and 

328
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:46,840
then it dies down and then a 10 
minute crescendo again. 

329
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,240
So that if you finish the game 
after 30 minutes, you've still 

330
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,600
experienced the same music than 
if you were playing after 45 

331
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,080
minutes, if that makes sense. 
But there's points in there 

332
00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,080
which are unique because no one 
will ever finish the game in 20 

333
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,360
minutes. 
But then after that, at any 

334
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:07,160
point, players could finish if 
they fail or if they look into a

335
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,720
great draw or, or set of 
circumstances. 

336
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:15,119
So yeah, he he did a good job of
keeping the theme going without 

337
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,319
people thinking, oh, I want to 
listen to the music, so I'm 

338
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:20,319
going to keep the game going, if
that makes sense. 

339
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,960
So it's meant to accompany what 
you're doing. 

340
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,800
And it includes the immersion. 
If I, if I was to just listen to

341
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,640
it as a standard on track, 
which, which obviously I have 

342
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:34,320
done quite a lot there. 
There's a lot of kind of just 

343
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,000
echoing notes and enormous 
quietness because it's, it's on 

344
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,120
in the background. 
Whereas the Viking, one of the 

345
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:45,000
Viking missions for a good five 
or or 6 minutes, we'll just have

346
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,640
like the sound of sea spray 
because you're making decisions.

347
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,360
You're not actively sat there 
going, oh, I wonder what happens

348
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:55,560
to the music now. 
So it's, it's a very good skill 

349
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,920
that Tim had, which was it 
should just be in the 

350
00:17:57,920 --> 00:17:59,600
background. 
It shouldn't dominate what's 

351
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,440
happening. 
Right, right. 

352
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:03,800
I love that. 
That's really exciting. 

353
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:09,440
So now that we've now that we've
sold this game to everyone based

354
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,120
on the fact that there's a 
soundtrack to go along with it. 

355
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,280
Because right now all we know is
you've got a soundtrack, you've 

356
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,200
commissioned that it's solo, 
There's some deck buildings. 

357
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,280
I mentioned that in the intro. 
Let's actually talk about the 

358
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,640
game. 
So I actually have a copy here 

359
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,800
as well and Becky will be very 
jealous because anyone that's 

360
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,920
can can see this. 
It's just come finished copies 

361
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,960
of of just starts to arrive. 
So yeah, Time Troopers is a solo

362
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:41,560
cooperative deck construction 
game where you are playing as a 

363
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,840
squad of time troopers who are 
going back in the past to steal 

364
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,520
artefacts. 
These artefacts are from 

365
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,280
different eras, so it could be 
Cleopatra's bracelet or it could

366
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,960
be a jade carving from Mongolian
times. 

367
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,800
These artefacts are rich in a 
dark energy which we don't 

368
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,120
understand today, which is very 
handy because I don't have to 

369
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:02,040
explain it. 
But in the future they can use 

370
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,920
to power the time game. 
The time time gate is 

371
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,160
essentially important because 
there's only two time gates. 1 

372
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,360
is in use by us, the United 
Nations of time. 

373
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,360
And the other one is in use by a
gang called the Scorpions. 

374
00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:17,640
And they're kind of the baddies 
of the, of the game. 

375
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,640
They're made-up of future 
conglomerates who don't want to 

376
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,800
change time because they're 
quite happy with how the 

377
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,760
future's turned out and, and 
they don't want to change it 

378
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,000
because they're, you know, all 
rich oligarchs and, and 

379
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,360
everything else. 
So so you can be playing, you 

380
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:35,320
can be going back in time to 
ancient Egypt, stealthing 

381
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,040
through a tomb and playing your 
your cards to do the actions. 

382
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:42,320
Then the locals take their turn,
so you would play your cards. 

383
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,440
If you think of it in terms of 
like a Marvel Champions or an 

384
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,960
Arc of Horror, it's very similar
to that kind of of play the way 

385
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,280
you have a turn and then the 
locals have their turn. 

386
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,680
We call the locals, which are 
the locals at that time. 

387
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,360
But also with any flip of the 
card, the scorpions can jump 

388
00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:58,080
through the gate. 
And then not only do you have to

389
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,040
defeat the locals, but then also
the scorpions and your mission 

390
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,680
parameters change. 
So you might have to do 

391
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,400
something then before the 
scorpions do it. 

392
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,400
So they're trying to steal the 
artifacts as well. 

393
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,880
Sure. 
So no two missions will will 

394
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:12,960
play the same because of the 
amount of cards we've got. 

395
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,600
There's 470 cards in the deck, 
so there's a lot of game going 

396
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,760
on. 
There's side quests as well, so 

397
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,440
you can achieve. 
So when you're playing a 

398
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,320
mission, you can choose to do a 
side quest. 

399
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,920
And we have a ton of unlockable 
content, because who doesn't 

400
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,400
love unlock cards, right? 
Right. 

401
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,760
Come on. 
And so you can unlock extra 

402
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,720
weapons, you can unlock 
characters, you can unlock 

403
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:39,120
events, or more efficient, the 
time dials which controls how 

404
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:41,360
much time. 
Time is a currency in the game 

405
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,400
so you can use it to re roll 
dice as it rewind time or you 

406
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:46,760
can. 
OK, I like that. 

407
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,880
Well, you can use it to see into
the future because at the end of

408
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,480
every round, there's three 
possible timelines and you turn 

409
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,480
over three event cards and then 
you roll the timeline dice to 

410
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,640
see which event phase you 
follow. 

411
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,760
And again, if you don't like the
result, you can spend a time 

412
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,200
token to rewind time and re roll
the dice. 

413
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,680
But if you spending your time to
do that, you're not spending 

414
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,960
your time to do actions. 
So you have to be very conscious

415
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,920
of what you're doing and you're 
drawing 4 cards and then playing

416
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,520
4 cards. 
So it's, it's a, it's a good 

417
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,160
combination of which characters 
you put into play because they 

418
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,880
all have different abilities, 
like some of them are good at 

419
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,560
sneaking and stealing and some 
of them are good at combat. 

420
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:29,240
And different missions carry 
different things. 

421
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,080
So there's 26 different missions
and each one lasts 45 minutes. 

422
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,040
So we have a whole book of, of, 
of missions. 

423
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:41,240
So there's a lot of game going 
in into that one kind of box 

424
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,480
that we're, that we're selling. 
And it comes with the big 

425
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,600
playmat as well. 
When you, if you, if you go to 

426
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,280
game found and have a look at 
it, you'll, you'll be able to 

427
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,000
see all of the information. 
But yeah, it's, it's a huge 

428
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,560
game. 
It's taken us like 3 or 4 years 

429
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,200
to get to this point. 
As you can imagine, I'm very 

430
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,640
passionate about it, which is 
why I'm. 

431
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,680
Well, of course. 
So you you mentioned that it's 

432
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,360
it's a solo and cooperative. 
So yeah. 

433
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,800
So talk me through that because 
I understand a solo game, but 

434
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:13,600
I'm like, you know, it's my wife
and I, I don't play solo games 

435
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,200
very much at all. 
But it sounds like from what I 

436
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,080
understand is like my wife and I
could play this game 

437
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,120
cooperatively. 
So how would that look 

438
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:23,880
differently from playing it 
solo? 

439
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,640
So it would be the same. 
So what we did was we were 

440
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,280
trying to make a solo game in in
the UK, we call this the Love 

441
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:32,920
Island Test. 
I'm not sure if you get Love 

442
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,440
Island in the US. 
We were looking for a game that 

443
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,120
you could set up in 5 minutes, 
play in 45 minutes, and then 

444
00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:42,200
pack it away in 5 minutes while 
someone else in your house is 

445
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:43,840
watching TV that you don't want 
to watch. 

446
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,680
So we thought there was a scope 
in the market for a board game 

447
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,320
that players wanted to play 
whilst someone else was, was 

448
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:54,640
spending an hour for ATV 
programme. 

449
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,120
You didn't want to play so you 
could play it on Wednesday 

450
00:22:56,120 --> 00:22:58,280
night. 
So it's, it was a solo game that

451
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,800
would fill that void of waiting 
for your next game's night. 

452
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,040
And also something that would 
bespoke to you. 

453
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,920
So we could both play this as 
solo players and have completely

454
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,560
different journeys. 
Like I could say, oh, wasn't it 

455
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,920
great when you unlocked a 
samurai sword and you would say,

456
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,800
I never got a samurai sword, I 
got a Viking shield because we 

457
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,240
made different decisions and the
book is like a choose your own 

458
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,200
adventure as well. 
So you, we, we would have 

459
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,960
different experiences. 
So how it would work as a as a, 

460
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,600
when we were play testing it and
putting it in front of people, 

461
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,920
we would get people like Craig 
and Becky and other couples sit 

462
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,000
down and we'd say, OK, we'll do 
a demo for both of you. 

463
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,360
And then we found that they were
having conversations like, oh, 

464
00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:38,480
well, if we unlocked the shadow,
then Shadow is very good at 

465
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,600
stealing. 
So let's unlock shadow now and 

466
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,720
then we can keep her in the 
deployment zone. 

467
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,040
And then someone else was 
saying, yeah, but if we do that,

468
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:46,400
we won't have enough money for a
reroll. 

469
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,920
So it kind of became a 
cooperative game as much as they

470
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,400
were talking through the 
decision making process, talking

471
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,800
through what cards to play, 
talking through the journey. 

472
00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:01,760
And because the mission book has
an side of intro and out infill 

473
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,480
and exfil text, it's got it's a 
story driven as well. 

474
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,840
So then we also hit upon by 
complete, it wasn't by design. 

475
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,480
I don't want to claim the credit
for it like a father and son who

476
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,360
said they would do this instead 
of a bedtime story because they 

477
00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:17,000
would read the you read the 
infill text and it's like the 

478
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,520
beginning of a story. 
Then you play their mission and 

479
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,320
then when you finish you read 
the the end of the story and 

480
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,240
then you turn the page to go to 
the next mission or you make a 

481
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:26,720
decision to go to the next 
mission. 

482
00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:29,160
Now the rumour is the rumour 
though. 

483
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,600
I I know you said you're not 
taking credit, but the rumour is

484
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,760
you did that on purpose. 
I'll, I'll, I'll take the 

485
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,840
credit. 
We did it kind of, it was a 

486
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,160
happy coincidence that that's 
how it worked. 

487
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,080
And so then we started to market
it as a solo and solo 

488
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,360
cooperative game because 
everyone we spoke to them was 

489
00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:50,280
going, oh, this is not a solo 
game, It's a Co-op game. 

490
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,240
And we were like, well, we 
designed it as a solo game. 

491
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,680
But the more play testing we 
did, the more we would get 

492
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,800
couples doing it or, or like a 
father and daughter or like 2 

493
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,640
friends even saying, Oh yeah, we
would just like buy one copy and

494
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,960
play it together. 
So by by accident, it became a, 

495
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,080
a really good cooperative game 
as well. 

496
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,680
We even had a a teacher because 
there's a lot of obviously 

497
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,920
historical data in here and it's
all accurate or as accurate as 

498
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,280
we can make it. 
And so we even had a teacher 

499
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,760
saying, a history teacher saying
I might let like four or five of

500
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,840
my class play this because it 
would it's it's fun, but they 

501
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,440
would learn at the same time, 
right. 

502
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,160
It's like an end of term kind of
reward or something. 

503
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,640
Yeah. 
So yeah, it's it's it's kind of 

504
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:39,080
good because it expands the 
market. 

505
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,920
But that's how you and your wife
would play Co-op too, OK. 

506
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:44,080
You'd read the story together 
and you would make decisions 

507
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,680
together. 
OK, so nothing mechanically 

508
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,600
changes in whether you choose to
play with someone or solo, It's 

509
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,760
the same exact, OK. 
Exactly. 

510
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,080
It's the same game. 
We we had a couple of strangers 

511
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,520
playing together because we were
double booked for one demo and 

512
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,520
one person took responsibility 
for the locals. 

513
00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:06,640
So it's like one person took 
took the decisions for the bad 

514
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,760
guys or we're doing the dash 
balls for the bad guys and the 

515
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,280
other person was doing that. 
But of course that's that's 

516
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,000
personal preference. 
If you're playing it solo, 

517
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:14,880
there's no mechanical difference
whatsoever. 

518
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,440
OK, all right, well now see now 
that that's that's a heart 

519
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:24,040
warming and positive to hear 
because when I first heard about

520
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,040
your game, I was like, this is a
solo game. 

521
00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:28,240
It's never going to hit my 
table, right? 

522
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,160
But I like that there is that 
cooperative nature. 

523
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,200
And then it came out through the
play testing process. 

524
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,960
So with that in mind, was there 
a moment during that process of 

525
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,120
play testing where you started 
to notice this trend? 

526
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:47,360
Did you have to make any tweaks 
or changes to the game in order 

527
00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:51,040
to accommodate that cooperative 
nature, or were you able to just

528
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,800
keep going with productivity We.
Didn't make any changes to the, 

529
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,360
to the core game, to the kind of
playability into the mechanics. 

530
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,400
We didn't. 
But what we did have to do then 

531
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,160
was kind of think about 
especially children because what

532
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,840
so, So what we did go back is 
originally we thought it would, 

533
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,760
this was going to be more of a 
sci-fi kind of adult game. 

534
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,680
And throughout play testing, we,
I think we underestimated how 

535
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,520
smart kids are these days, 
right? 

536
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,240
So what we did was go back and 
look at the wording, especially 

537
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,320
in the instruction manual and 
kind of make that count as many 

538
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,760
words as we could. 
So think about how to get back 

539
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,600
to basic language. 
But in terms of the core game, 

540
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:29,880
we didn't make any changes at 
all. 

541
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,360
We didn't, we didn't need to. 
There was some some cards which 

542
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:37,520
had some some gory element to 
it, which we then decided to 

543
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,480
remove based on on feedback as 
well. 

544
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:40,960
We were like, I don't think you 
need that. 

545
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,640
It's a good game without kind of
the blood. 

546
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,120
And that would rule out me that 
was only like 1 card. 

547
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:49,240
So we took that out, but we 
didn't have to change the 

548
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,400
mechanics because it just works 
as it was. 

549
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,280
So yeah, this story mode as 
well. 

550
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,720
We then made more choices like 
in terms of like, so once you 

551
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,040
finish Mission X, what do you 
want to do next? 

552
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,720
Do you want to go and fight 
dinosaurs or do you want to go 

553
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,200
and see what the gladiators are 
up to? 

554
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,320
So we put more choice at the 
bottom so that if people were 

555
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,680
playing it cooperatively they 
would have to make decisions 

556
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,080
together rather than just turn 
the page and play again. 

557
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,760
So I've heard a lot of you've 
described a lot of historical 

558
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,960
settings that are in the ancient
world, both Asia and Western 

559
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,080
Mediterranean. 
How much history is covered in 

560
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,520
the missions? 
Like how far, how close are to 

561
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,920
modern times does it go? 
And we have 8, there's eight 

562
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,280
different time zones or 8 eras 
around this. 

563
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,960
And so each one has three 
missions. 

564
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,480
So for instance, if you go to 
Egypt and the first mission 

565
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,520
might be you go through the gate
and you have to find the temple.

566
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,400
And then the second mission 
would be you're in the temple 

567
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:49,640
and you have to defeat the 
guards. 

568
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,680
And then the third mission might
be you then have to steal the 

569
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,200
amula and fight the scorpions. 
So it's kind of a narrative 

570
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,480
driven those 3. 
So there's three in each of the 

571
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,200
8I. 
Let's not forget any of these 

572
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,120
now. 
It's so so we have the Viking 

573
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,480
era, we have ancient Egypt, as 
we said, the Mongolian Empire, 

574
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,720
the late Cretaceous period, 
which is dinosaurs obviously of.

575
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,560
Course. 
The Roman Empire, the Aztecs and

576
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,800
the Conquistadors, you jump 
right to the middle of that 

577
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,600
battle and Edo, Japan and the 
Samurais. 

578
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,520
And then the final one is the 
future. 

579
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,840
So that one takes place in the 
future, which is where the 

580
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,360
Scorpions and the Time Troopers 
fight in the final three 

581
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,240
missions. 
But you can only defeat them if 

582
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,480
you've unlocked all of the right
criteria from the other 

583
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,360
missions. 
So the better you do in the lead

584
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,280
up to those last missions, the 
easier it will be. 

585
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:41,160
OK. 
All right. 

586
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,960
So it sounds like there's a lot 
of opportunity for expansions in

587
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,200
the future. 
This always comes up, it's 

588
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,080
always a thing. 
And we're asking people in play 

589
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,640
testing. 
So yeah, we've we've got there's

590
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,320
a lot of history in the world, 
right? 

591
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:55,440
So we've. 
There is. 

592
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,280
We've got a lot of scope to to 
do more if there's if people 

593
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,400
want it. 
We've left space in the box 

594
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,360
deliberately so that you can 
sleeve the cards, but also so 

595
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,240
like we did do any expansions, 
you could just drop it straight 

596
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,680
into the into the box without 
needing more. 

597
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,680
So we have thought about that in
the future. 

598
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,840
If you read the story, which I 
can't tell you too much about, 

599
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,320
then there's there's potentially
a story to do that as well. 

600
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,280
Yeah, we, we've been fooling 
around with some things we could

601
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,640
we could do, like the Ice Age 
and Saber toothed tigers and, 

602
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,560
you know, lots of things going 
on, lots of history which we can

603
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,880
touch on. 
Right, Yeah, because I noticed 

604
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,960
like the the medieval world, 
there's not even mentioned. 

605
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,640
And I'm like, oh, you could. 
Yeah, there's a lot that. 

606
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,040
Was listed as well, You know, 
what could we do? 

607
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:46,440
That was a medieval world, Joan 
of Arc, of course, that was 

608
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,080
Africa, which we touched on, 
which we could do. 

609
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,320
We toyed around. 
He was doing a moon landing 

610
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,760
version, so there was a mission 
on the moves. 

611
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,440
So yeah, there's tons of stuff 
we could we could do. 

612
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,280
Of course, going back so far in 
history, it means you don't have

613
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,800
to worry about copyright and 
other things as well. 

614
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,960
And also we tried to 
deliberately stay away from 

615
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,560
anything which was too likely to
upset anyone from a cultural 

616
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,760
perspective or anything else as 
well. 

617
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,080
So we stayed away from like 
walls and things like that and 

618
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,520
obvious areas. 
But yeah, there's still a ton of

619
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:17,480
history. 
We could do more. 

620
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,840
So I'm thinking about other 
board games and game designers 

621
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:28,920
who have set their their board 
game is set in a historical time

622
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,200
period, right? 
And I'm just thinking about, and

623
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,080
maybe this isn't a question so 
much as a suggestion. 

624
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,520
So yeah, I'll, I'll work it 
through and we'll see what you 

625
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,600
think. 
So, and of course, this is going

626
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,280
to give me an opportunity to 
talk about my very favorite game

627
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,360
of all time, and that's 
Obsession by Dan Halligan, whose

628
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,080
game is set in the Victorian 
era. 

629
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:54,720
I was thinking, could you work 
with Dan or other publishers and

630
00:31:54,720 --> 00:32:00,560
like pull so that their board 
games, their material were in 

631
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,760
these missions in future 
expansions? 

632
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,920
Like, is that something 
possible? 

633
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,000
Is that something you, you know 
what I mean? 

634
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,160
That would be really cool, yeah.
I think so. 

635
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,920
And it depends the artwork. 
So, so the artwork we have, this

636
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,960
is, is probably the best artwork
we've ever done. 

637
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,480
And what we had to do was, was 
do it in eight different blocks 

638
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,120
because we wanted the artwork to
be a different style for each. 

639
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,120
So the short kind cards would be
like Japanese ink and Blossom, 

640
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,440
which are in there. 
But then the dinosaur cards, 

641
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,600
obviously we want it to be more 
dark and kind of the dinosaur 

642
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,480
hidden. 
So yeah, we've used a big art 

643
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,480
team for this. 
But the graphic design on the 

644
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,920
cards are phenomenal. 
Rob Ingall, who does the graphic

645
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,360
design has done our awesome job 
on that. 

646
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,280
Pierre, who was who led the art 
team did a great job. 

647
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:46,520
So I think the the artwork in 
board games now is is key 

648
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,200
because that's the first thing 
people see. 

649
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,120
So you can't see a mechanic. 
Oh right, the artwork grabs 

650
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,040
someone and then the mechanics 
keep them there is is what we is

651
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,280
what we kind of our philosophy. 
So if people are walking past 

652
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,920
the demo table at Gencon or 
where where it is, there's 

653
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,280
thousands and thousands of 
games. 

654
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,480
So you need someone to walk past
and go, Oh, that looks cool. 

655
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,360
And then if it is cool, it keeps
them there. 

656
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,400
If not, then they'll go away. 
But if you don't get that 

657
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:17,040
initial hook, so it is, it is 
something we could possibly do 

658
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,480
with that as a, as a hook is to 
use artwork from, from other 

659
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,120
games and other styles. 
Once it's established. 

660
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,960
Another area, we another era was
kind of like the Renaissance 

661
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,720
period and, and kind of Da 
Vinci, Leonardo da Vinci and all

662
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,520
that kind of era. 
And there's a there's a there's 

663
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,360
a few board games that have got 
some really cool art around 

664
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,600
around that as well. 
And an obsession would be good. 

665
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,040
Try and spread the errors 
globally apart. 

666
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:44,840
Unfortunately, obviously there's
a lot of history. 

667
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,600
Well, not unfortunately that's 
that sounds bad, but. 

668
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,000
There's a lot, I know what you 
meant. 

669
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,840
There's a lot of history in 
Europe and not a lot of history 

670
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:53,440
in other continents for us to 
share around. 

671
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,880
So we may have to do something 
with Australia as well. 

672
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:02,000
So maybe Easter Island or the OR
the, yeah, something like that. 

673
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,720
So there's, there's tons we can 
go at. 

674
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:05,560
It's it's great. 
But yeah, I'm always on the 

675
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,480
lookout for great artwork 
because I think that's the 

676
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:08,920
that's the thing that draws 
people in. 

677
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,320
Right. 
No, I totally agree with that. 

678
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,239
I was also thinking about Thomas
Oleg's game Galileo Galilei, 

679
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,840
which took over the world last 
year, which has some really 

680
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,600
unique artwork as well. 
Like, how cool would it be to 

681
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,840
pull in that style of artwork, 
those characters and, you know, 

682
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,960
interact with them in some way 
in a mission, in the. 

683
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:36,400
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Time travel, Time travel. 

684
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,520
Is that something that you're 
just a big fan of? 

685
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,360
Was that like a, was that 
because, you know, time travel's

686
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,159
divisive? 
People either love it or they 

687
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:45,520
hate it. 
I kind of go back and forth. 

688
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:49,480
Is that always something you had
an affinity as a fan? 

689
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,199
And you're like, I want to do a 
game in time travel. 

690
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:56,960
Like talk to me about that. 
So I like the escapism element 

691
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,680
of of of gaming on the immersive
experience you have. 

692
00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:02,280
And I've played a few solo 
games. 

693
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,880
Well, when we started designing,
I guess there were very few solo

694
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,360
games around. 
But more and more now it's it's 

695
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,640
become everything has to have a 
solo mode, whereas this was 

696
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,160
designed as a solo game. 
And sometimes the solo mode 

697
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,200
sucks because it's just an add 
on to say that it's a solo. 

698
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:22,240
I'm not mentioning any games. 
So the time travel element came 

699
00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:25,880
because it's something which to 
start with, I like the 

700
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,920
historical escapism. 
And so we were going to design A

701
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,320
Viking game and then we're kind 
of like, oh, there's tons of 

702
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,360
Viking games. 
And then it started out as a 

703
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,760
concept between Mark Palette, 
the designer and I of saying, 

704
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,960
wouldn't it be great if you 
could design A game where you 

705
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,080
took control to play a game. 
You took control of the Vikings 

706
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,920
and I could control of the 
samurais and then we could 

707
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,640
attack each other and then, and 
then that transplant transpired 

708
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,480
into, Oh well, what, let's build
like 8 or 9 different armies. 

709
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,400
So you could have Mongolian 
empire and I could, and I've got

710
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:55,880
Archers and you could have a 
different. 

711
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,680
So we, we, we kind of 
spitballing around that 

712
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:00,760
escapism. 
But then it just became, well, 

713
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,120
well, in what context would they
be fighting each other? 

714
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,040
How could we get this to work? 
And so we came up with a time 

715
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,360
travelling idea. 
And then as we were just 

716
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,040
spitballing this, it just what 
we wanted to do then was kind 

717
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,240
of, Oh yeah, rather than make 
two people fight each other, let

718
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:17,920
them be the good guys and and we
can and we can go from that. 

719
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,920
So time travel was the 
convenient vehicle for us to 

720
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,600
immerse players in tons of 
different environments and 

721
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,000
worlds that we thought were 
great and that we wanted to play

722
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,120
games in those eras. 
So we have Viking games and we 

723
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,400
have games about samurais, but 
what we wanted to do was play 

724
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,160
like 3 missions and then go, OK,
that's enough, let's move on to 

725
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:39,720
the next era. 
OK, that's enough. 

726
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,480
So time travel, I think we 
didn't set out to build a time 

727
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,200
travel game. 
We built out, we set out to 

728
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,240
build a game and tons of 
different eras and and and 

729
00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:49,920
immersive experiences and time 
travel was the vehicle to do 

730
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,720
that. 
OK, so how much research did you

731
00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:56,800
have to do in time travel to 
make this game work 

732
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:58,880
mechanically? 
A lot. 

733
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:04,760
And not, not just, not just from
us, but also in terms of getting

734
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,200
a like a cultural advisor to, to
make sure we weren't doing 

735
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,600
anything, especially around 
something which could be 

736
00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:13,560
sensitive. 
So we, we have a, a mission 

737
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,560
around the, the Aztecs and the, 
and the conquistadors. 

738
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,320
And so we don't, you jump into 
the middle of this battle and 

739
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,520
say 1 mission you're fighting 
the Aztecs and the next mission 

740
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:22,720
you're fighting the 
conquistadors. 

741
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,320
And in the next mission, you're 
fighting them both together 

742
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:26,440
while they're fighting each 
other. 

743
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,080
And so we were very careful. 
Not well, we did the research 

744
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,600
and obviously we know what 
happened, but we were very 

745
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,040
careful to kind of not point out
some of the genocide and other 

746
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,320
things which is going on because
it's it's kids are going to be 

747
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,440
reading this. 
But also we didn't want to get 

748
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,160
in trouble with anyone and upset
anyone. 

749
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,080
So it's a game. 
It's supposed to be fun. 

750
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,920
But at the same time, the last 
thing you want to do is, is, is 

751
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,680
offend anyone's reading up about
some eras. 

752
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,800
We made missions for some eras. 
And then the more we read about 

753
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,920
it, we were like, we we we can't
do this because if we want this 

754
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,160
to be a proper experience and 
we're going to have to put the 

755
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,560
historical facts down. 
And the historical facts are 

756
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,240
just not conducive to a family 
sitting around playing this 

757
00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:10,040
game. 
Sure. 

758
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,000
Yeah. 
So we so we took some content 

759
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:18,600
out and but some of it, like the
late Cretaceous period, was just

760
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,440
annoying. 
I I really wanted T Rex in the 

761
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,200
game. 
And Mark really wanted velocity 

762
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,960
Raptors in the game, but there 
was an inconvenience that they 

763
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,360
didn't live on the same 
continent or in the same time. 

764
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,080
So we got that whole screw, 
screw it, no one will know. 

765
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,440
And we were like, yeah, well, we
kind of. 

766
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,840
Somebody will find out and get 
mad at you. 

767
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,760
Yep. 
So we had to choose an either or

768
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:49,080
to make that work. 
And yeah, but in researching the

769
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,000
game, like the, we call it 
ancient Egypt, which cause 

770
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,880
Cleopatra is, is, is in the 
game. 

771
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,680
But actually then when we looked
at it, we realised that 

772
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:01,360
Cleopatra lived closer to us 
today than to when the pyramids 

773
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,560
were built. 
It's like 2500 years BC. 

774
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,120
So there were little things like
the more research, we thought 

775
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,320
this is a really cool fact. 
So we've put those facts on 

776
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,960
cards in the game and, and 
historical information about the

777
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,120
area you're playing in is in the
book as well. 

778
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,960
Just little tidbits that we that
we pulled as we were, as we were

779
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,400
going through. 
Like I always assumed the Romans

780
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,800
wore the red, a kind of fluffy 
centurion helmet. 

781
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,960
And then as we were researching 
it, we realised they never wore 

782
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:30,720
red. 
It was purple because purple was

783
00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:34,840
kind of the, the, the, the 
colour of, of, of Caesar. 

784
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,840
And but it was incredibly 
expensive to make things purple.

785
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,400
Little things like that. 
We would have to go to the 

786
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:41,800
artist and say, can you make it 
purple? 

787
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,120
And he's like, oh, no, 
Centurions wore red. 

788
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,200
And I was like, yeah, can you 
just make it purple? 

789
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,400
Can you make a purple cloak for 
us instead of a red one? 

790
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:50,880
So things like that slow the 
game down. 

791
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,920
And I doubt 99% of the people 
will care. 

792
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:59,320
But doing the research, we, we 
know it's there and then we, we 

793
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,800
know it's, it's right. 
But that's that's probably 

794
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,120
errors in there we're we're not 
aware of because it's a game at 

795
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,240
the end of the day, it's not a 
historical thesis. 

796
00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:09,120
Right, right. 
The challenge? 

797
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,880
The challenges for you and your 
listeners is to find some 

798
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,680
historical inaccuracies. 
Also want it to be accurate, not

799
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:17,800
just because we want accuracy, 
right? 

800
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,760
But I think you had mentioned 
it, you had teachers, they could

801
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,560
use it in the classrooms by 
being attentive to the detail, 

802
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,000
by being accurate teachers, 
educators can use them in the 

803
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,480
classroom. 
Which then leads to more sales 

804
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,840
so that they can be used in the 
classroom and more exposure. 

805
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,680
So yeah, you know, there's a 
business component to why you 

806
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,440
want it to be historically 
accurate. 

807
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,960
It's more fun as well if you if 
you unlock these kind of Nuggets

808
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:44,440
as you're going along and things
like that. 

809
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:45,840
So yeah, it's it was pretty 
good. 

810
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,440
Absolutely, absolutely. 
OK, so you've got more Inarius 

811
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,480
games. 
I wanted to ask you this. 

812
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,400
Talk to me about the name of the
company. 

813
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,600
I feel like there's AI feel 
like. 

814
00:40:57,720 --> 00:40:59,720
Not really. 
There's we set up the company 

815
00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:01,240
obviously I explained about the 
Lakes game. 

816
00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:03,480
So it was myself and my wife 
originally. 

817
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,040
And then I have two brothers who
one's quite handily a graphic 

818
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,440
designer and the other one is a 
great salesperson. 

819
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,800
And so the three of us and my 
best friend Mark were the ones 

820
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,200
who set the company up along 
with my wife. 

821
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,840
So four of us were, were all 
called Miller, which is my 

822
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,360
surname and Molinaris is Latin 
for Miller. 

823
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,760
So we went with, so we went with
Molinaris games. 

824
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,040
It's it's as boring as that, I'm
afraid. 

825
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:35,320
I have a degree in Latin and I 
do not know that, so that's 

826
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,560
pretty darn interesting, to be 
fair. 

827
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,320
It's the question we get asked 
the most at Commons and 

828
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,480
exhibitions is what can I can we
just ask why I'm on? 

829
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,280
And also it's really hard to 
spell. 

830
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,680
So the amount of times people 
have tried to like e-mail us or 

831
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:51,960
find our website and it's 
spelled wrong. 

832
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,960
So if I again, if I could use my
own time gate, I probably would 

833
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,680
have called it something else. 
I also see that you've got two 

834
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,440
titles that are planned to be 
released this year in 2026. 

835
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,080
Is that right? 
Can you talk about them at all? 

836
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,360
Yeah, we we have a new prototype
arc today, which is before the 

837
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,480
rain. 
So I don't know how much you 

838
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:16,920
know about this this game, but 
yeah, we're we're going to bring

839
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:22,000
before the rain outs to to do 
kickstarts campaign in for 

840
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,760
probably April and then it will 
be available at the cons in the 

841
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:31,120
summer. 
So before the rain is well, it 

842
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:32,920
looks beautiful. 
I don't know if if people can 

843
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,600
see this or not, but it's we 
used Hannah Bailey, who's a 

844
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:40,840
famous illustrator who did games
like planted and other games as 

845
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,680
well. 
And so it's a push your look 

846
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,840
game. 
So what you're trying to do is 

847
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,400
you are a hive of bees and you 
are going to collect as much 

848
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,760
pollen as possible. 
And so you would play a card 

849
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,880
from your hand, and I would play
a card from my hand and you 

850
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,880
would have a pollen count on it,
one to five at any point. 

851
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,120
Instead of playing a pollen 
card, you could play your Hive 

852
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,720
card, which means you'd take all
of those cards and all those 

853
00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:04,200
points. 
OK. 

854
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,240
But at the end of every flip of 
a card we also turn over a 

855
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:11,800
weather deck and it'll be 
sunshine or rain or storm. 

856
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,800
If you ever have 3 rain out then
the rain washers will pollen 

857
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,640
away and you can't collect any 
cards. 

858
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,880
So it's a push your look against
both your opponents and against 

859
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,680
the weather as. 
Well, nice. 

860
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,720
So it's a really easy to play 
card game as I've just 

861
00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:28,760
explained, dead easy to play. 
But of course the push your look

862
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:30,480
element means you play over 3 
rounds. 

863
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,240
So if after the first round 
you're behind in points, you can

864
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:35,320
push your look a little bit more
in the second round and third 

865
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,760
round. 
There's also different flowers, 

866
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,120
so there's 5 different flower 
types and each one you can 

867
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,520
collect pollen, score bonus 
points and things like that as 

868
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:44,920
well. 
So really easy to game. 

869
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,640
So we've got that one coming out
in the spring and we think we're

870
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,080
going to do very well with that 
because it's a very easy to play

871
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,840
small box game, which is 
beautiful and easy to play. 

872
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,880
And then we have another game 
called Little Frankenstein. 

873
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:57,520
Was that the one you were 
referring to? 

874
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,120
No, I didn't know the titles. 
I just saw that right before the

875
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:02,680
recording. 
I saw you had two games coming 

876
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,000
out and I was like, oh, I got to
ask him about it. 

877
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,120
Yeah, so we have a, it's a cool 
little game. 

878
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,280
This is a bit of an exclusive 
because I've not talked about 

879
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:15,480
this to to anyone before. 
In around after the end of the 

880
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,160
summer for Halloween, we have a 
game coming out called Little 

881
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,040
Frankenstein where you have to, 
it's a set collection game where

882
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,760
you have to collect body parts 
of monsters to build your own 

883
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,080
Frankenstein's monster. 
So we will have things like the 

884
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:33,280
Swamp Thing and Dracula and 
mummies and zombies and evil 

885
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,640
robots and of course, 
Frankenstein himself. 

886
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,360
Absolutely. 
The artwork is kind of anime 

887
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:43,760
cutesy style, really vibrant 
colours so that kids can kids 

888
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,520
can play as well. 
So you'll be dealt cards and 

889
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:51,560
it's a choose one card and pass 
them around and kind of drafting

890
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,840
and collecting cards. 
But there's also power ups, 

891
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,640
things like swap the body part 
for someone else's body part or 

892
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,520
just love things out. 
So really easy to play, fun 

893
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:01,720
game. 
I would take the type of game 

894
00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:03,600
that you would play at the start
of a game's night. 

895
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,720
But again, we're trying to tap 
into a niche market of a game 

896
00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:10,560
for Halloween that we don't 
think there's that many quick 

897
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,280
games that you can play with, 
with the whole family for, for 

898
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,760
Halloween. 
Yeah, we're excited about that 

899
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:17,680
because the mechanics are really
easy to play. 

900
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,720
But again, the artworks great. 
We've we've hired an anime 

901
00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:24,200
artist and it's it's fantastic. 
Yeah. 

902
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,840
We'll share that. 
I'll share a couple of those 

903
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,760
pictures with you and you can 
share them online if you if you 

904
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,360
like. 
That'd be absolutely, yeah. 

905
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,120
They're with along with time 
troopers there. 

906
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,720
We try and do two or three games
a year and they're the three 

907
00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:42,000
games we're doing in 2026. 
OK, so I'm I'm curious about 

908
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:47,560
especially so AI and AI art is 
it's a very hot topic right now.

909
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:53,400
How easy or difficult is it for 
you and Molinarius as a as a 

910
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:58,400
whole to find artists for these 
titles once you're ready to go? 

911
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,440
Is that relatively simple or is 
it a real challenge or Yeah. 

912
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,200
I think it's easy to find 
artists. 

913
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:09,320
It's it's hard to find great 
artists who not that aren't 

914
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,840
talented, but who understand 
what you're what you're looking 

915
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,520
for. 
So I'm, I'm a terrible artist. 

916
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,280
So I tend to just like scribble 
on bits of paper and then say 

917
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,280
this is what we're looking for. 
But in this it's a bit old 

918
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,360
fashioned and a bit 90s, but I I
like to create like a mood board

919
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,040
or something like that. 
Sure. 

920
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,640
And send it on to the artist to 
say we kind of like this vibe 

921
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:34,000
and this thing and but you know,
it's very important that the 

922
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,720
artist always puts their own 
spin on it and their personality

923
00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:40,000
comes through. 
AI artwork is a big no for us. 

924
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,440
I understand why it's there. 
And when I say it's a big no for

925
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,520
us, I think that's a world of 
difference between using AI or 

926
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,960
using stock images for 
prototypes and things which you 

927
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,320
are you are doing inside. 
So if me and four or five of the

928
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,240
team working here on Time 
Troopers, you don't want to go 

929
00:46:58,240 --> 00:47:01,360
and spend hundreds of thousands 
of pounds on on artwork and then

930
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,440
go actually that doesn't work 
scrapping stuff again. 

931
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,880
So we will just go and grab 
images of like The Witcher or 

932
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:11,080
something which copyrighted or 
so we could have inadvertently 

933
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,720
have grabbed an AI image because
we're just grabbing images off 

934
00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:15,040
online. 
But that's only for the 

935
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,560
prototype. 
We never put anything 

936
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:21,400
commercially out there that has 
any AI artwork in it for two 

937
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,120
reasons. 
One, there are too many good 

938
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,960
artists that need help and our 
support in the industry. 

939
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,760
And we're a indie publisher, so 
we're never going to be rich 

940
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,000
doing this. 
We're not Asthma Day or, or 

941
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,280
anyone else. 
But what we can do is help the 

942
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,280
community around us. 
And that includes artists and 

943
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,400
musicians like TM. 
We could have just used AI and 

944
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,560
downloaded some music tracks. 
So it's important to support the

945
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,080
community. 
And I think the wider gaming 

946
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,240
community like yourself and, and
listening to some of your 

947
00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:51,520
podcasts previously appreciate 
that people like cool art and 

948
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:52,920
they want to know who the 
artists are. 

949
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,320
And people like to know that 
it's not AI art. 

950
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:01,680
And I think there's still a push
back for if there was games that

951
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,800
come on to Kickstarter or, or, 
or game found at the moment as 

952
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,840
soon as it's, I know one came 
out quite recently and it was, 

953
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,400
it was just full of AI artwork 
and, and it just got kind of 

954
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,400
review bonds and, and things 
like that. 

955
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,640
So the community's not ready for
it. 

956
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:18,840
And I think that's because most 
of the people who are into board

957
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,280
games are creative people and, 
and they understand it's 

958
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,200
important for us to support 
artists. 

959
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:28,000
So it's easy for us to find 
artists in that way. 

960
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,120
And it's just the communication 
piece I think is the is the 

961
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,040
hardest piece to get through 
what we're looking for. 

962
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,840
But that's what I was. 
So I've, I've talked about, I've

963
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,560
featured, we've talked about 
this so much on the podcast 

964
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,520
about the community of gamers, 
the community of content 

965
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:47,960
creators, of designers and 
publishers. 

966
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,840
I don't know much about the 
community of artists 

967
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:53,800
specifically for board games, 
right? 

968
00:48:54,080 --> 00:49:00,240
Like, is there a deep, robust, 
vibrant community of artists 

969
00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:04,640
that do a lot of work for board 
games that if someone were 

970
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:09,560
designing their first game, 
could easily plug into and find 

971
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,120
the right artist for their game?
I. 

972
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,720
Think this is where the beauty 
of of having friends in the 

973
00:49:15,720 --> 00:49:19,520
community help. 
So I'm on a discord group with a

974
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:23,440
lot of UK indie publishers. 
We actually have some Canadian 

975
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,360
and American people in there now
as well. 

976
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,640
And so it's relatively easy for 
me to jump online and ask 

977
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,520
another 40 or 50 publishers to 
say hey we're doing a game about

978
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,040
beehives. 
Does anyone know anyone that's 

979
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,560
really good at watercolor art? 
Because that's the style we're 

980
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,360
looking for and and we share 
resources between US. 

981
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,960
And so like most industries, 
word of mouth is very important 

982
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,400
because I could go online and 
search for a watercolor artist 

983
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,240
and I'd I'd be lost in, in a sea
of searches. 

984
00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:57,080
So having other people recommend
you is good, but also you can 

985
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,520
give people a break and try. 
So things like Fiver, perhaps 

986
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:04,920
some sites like that aren't 
necessarily great for artists. 

987
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:08,200
I understand that. 
But what you can do is send a 

988
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:11,200
requirement to six to seven 
artists and say we're looking 

989
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:15,680
for a watercolor beehive to six 
artists, can you give me your 

990
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:17,840
image? 
And then the one that's the best

991
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:19,720
you can then go, OK, great, 
we've got a project that you 

992
00:50:19,720 --> 00:50:22,320
might be interested in. 
So you're giving 6 people a shot

993
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:23,720
at it. 
Yes, you're paying them for the 

994
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:26,920
artwork to do that. 
But at the same time, once you 

995
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,280
find someone that's really good,
you can then work with them for 

996
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,880
the entirety of the project. 
And then you start to go back to

997
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:33,840
that disco group and say, Hey, 
I've got something who's really 

998
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,960
good if anyone wants to use them
for a future project. 

999
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,560
So it happens by chance. 
We also have people to come up 

1000
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:43,480
to as a convention and leave us 
artwork and leave U.S. business 

1001
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,320
cards and things like that for 
for art as well As for games and

1002
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,720
for all sorts like translation 
services into different 

1003
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:53,320
languages and things like that. 
So because we're a small 

1004
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,600
company, we like to give people 
are shot, even if we've not 

1005
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,160
worked them before. 
But once you find someone great,

1006
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,560
we stick with them. 
We have the same graphic 

1007
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:03,960
designer that we've used for 
every game so far. 

1008
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,560
And we and we have artists that 
we've used on three or four 

1009
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:09,000
games. 
Even though the style is 

1010
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,960
different, we know that they can
adapt to what we're what we're 

1011
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:13,640
looking. 
For sure, sure. 

1012
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,600
Well, well, thanks for that 
because I was, I was really 

1013
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,760
curious about the art, the 
community of artists in board 

1014
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:22,520
gaming. 
And so that's a piece that I, 

1015
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:27,480
maybe I, I have inadvertently 
underrepresented on my show and 

1016
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:31,000
I'm always looking to expand 
that out and be more inclusive. 

1017
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,480
So I think thanks for sharing 
that with me. 

1018
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:38,600
So tell everybody where they can
find you, Molinarius, where they

1019
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,680
can find time troopers on all 
the social media platforms and 

1020
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:44,200
yeah. 
Sure. 

1021
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,440
So you can you can head to 
molinarius.com and download that

1022
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,000
great music we were talking 
about earlier. 

1023
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,360
And Troopers is currently in the
pledge manager stage on Game 

1024
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,600
Found. 
So that will be fulfilling in 

1025
00:51:56,720 --> 00:51:59,080
around 30 days time from now. 
I think. 

1026
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,600
So, yeah. 
So you could skip all the boring

1027
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,240
waiting and just jump straight 
onto Game Found, put your pledge

1028
00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:06,840
in and get your copy so you're 
not waiting a long time like 

1029
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,600
other people have been. 
And yeah, that that's kind of 

1030
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:14,240
we're at Modern Art Games on 
Instagram as well on Facebook. 

1031
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,520
We're not sociable enough to to 
do all of the kind of packs and 

1032
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,040
everything We're we're still 
working on that sort of stuff. 

1033
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:25,880
But yeah, it's I would say more 
on rs.com is probably the best 

1034
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,600
place to go. 
Well, fantastic, Lee, thank you 

1035
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,800
so much for joining me and 
sharing your story. 

1036
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,480
I, I know I'm, I'm now I get the
excitement. 

1037
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:38,440
I get it. 
So Becky, when you're listening,

1038
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:43,000
I understand time troopers. 
Super, super exciting. 

1039
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,360
Guys, don't forget to like and 
subscribe. 

1040
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,560
Please send me your comments. 
It's been great this year so 

1041
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:49,720
far. 
It's been a great start. 

1042
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:54,480
Those comments really help me 
keep my energy level up to keep 

1043
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:59,000
providing you with the same 
level of content. 

1044
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,720
And as always, be kind to each 
other and let's play more games.

1045
00:53:02,720 --> 00:53:02,880
Games.