1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:05,120 Hey guys, welcome to episode one O 8 of Meeple to Meeple. 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:09,520 As always, I remain PJ and unfortunately there's no Gareth 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:11,440 with us. Today is a very interesting 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,960 episode. It's one that has had a lot of 5 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,400 problems. It's had a lot of challenges, 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:19,800 but you know, when you're trying to unite Meeples around the 7 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:21,840 world, there are always challenges. 8 00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:25,720 So this is the second recording of this interview that just did 9 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:30,400 not go right for Gareth and I before the holiday season. 10 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:36,120 But I am happy to have with us again the reprise of Josh Wood 11 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:38,120 from AG Games. Josh, how are you? 12 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,960 I'm doing good. It's been a crazy month or so 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,400 for me, but I'm glad that we get to do this again. 14 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:46,680 I think this is going to be great. 15 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:48,760 We're going to just nail it more of the second time. 16 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,280 So there you go, We got it. So yeah, it's like we we 17 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,720 recorded this back in November. We had some technical issues. 18 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,960 Then it was Thanksgiving and then you went to PAX Unplugged 19 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,800 and then the holidays. And then recently you just, you 20 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:06,520 had to evacuate from the fires, right? 21 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:08,920 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had AI evacuated from the 22 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:13,040 fires, so I was in a hotel. And then now I'm here in 23 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,400 Atlanta, so I've been just bouncing all around. 24 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,400 But you know, sometimes you have to travel, right? 25 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:26,160 Is is that a good a good segue? That is a great segue, which is 26 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,000 why you're here. You're here to talk about what I 27 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:35,600 think my, my prediction is that your game, Let's Go to Japan is 28 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,360 definitely going to be a nominee for the Spiel the Yard for this 29 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,920 year. I think it's definitely made it 30 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:45,760 into Gareth and I's top 10 for games for 2024 that were 31 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,520 released in 2024. It hit the table so many times, 32 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,200 both Gareth and I, I think, and a lot of our friends who are 33 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,960 always posting, I know there's a lot of folks interested in this 34 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,760 conversation and I think that this is going to be exciting. 35 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,320 So before we dive into it, tell us a little bit about yourself, 36 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,280 how you got into the hobby. How did you become a game 37 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,600 designer and publisher? Yeah, I, you know, I think when 38 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:13,200 so I think IA little background, I work for AEG. 39 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,360 I guess that's more of the middle of the story. 40 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,320 But you know, I think like a lot of us, we just, we, we always 41 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,720 like gaming and then we get into the hobby of games. 42 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:26,680 I got, I got in around like 2003 when I first was in college. 43 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:34,080 And you know, I think like at all points gamers decide, you 44 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,120 know, or a certain number of game designers go. 45 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:37,760 I wonder if I could make a board game. 46 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,480 And you know, I tried doing that and I sold my first game to AG 47 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,840 and then they gave me a shot at being a developer for Tiny 48 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,400 Towns. And then so and then they hired 49 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,760 me full time. So now I work full time for AG. 50 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,400 So I get to do design work and development work. 51 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,520 And that's sort of my that's the sort of my story. 52 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,240 So when did you you started in the hobby in 2003? 53 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,400 When did you go on board AG as a full time staff? 54 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:09,760 2018. OK. 55 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:11,920 Yeah, so. Pretty recent. 56 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:14,320 Yeah, so I started with it. Yeah. 57 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,960 Because so Cat Lady came out in 2017. 58 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,320 I think I sold it to them. I think the crazy story about 59 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:28,360 Cat Lady is I sold them Cat Lady in January of 2017 and came out 60 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,600 later in 2017, and that kind of stuff never happened. 61 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,440 Usually when you sell a game, it takes a year, 2 years, three 62 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,400 years plus for it to come out. But I actually did the artwork 63 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,080 for Cat Lady, but that was the current type of art. 64 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:46,600 And so I had planned for them to find their own artists and 65 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,640 everything. And you know, usually there's a 66 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:50,920 development cycle, but they're like, look, we think that this 67 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,480 game is fully developed. We love the arts, we want to do 68 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:56,400 it, but I was not confident with my art. 69 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,080 I was like, oh, maybe we should hire a professional artist to 70 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,960 put like good artwork on instead of my artwork. 71 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,840 Then they offered me a little bit more money to use my artwork 72 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,240 and I was like, OK, I guess, I guess we'll roll with my. 73 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,400 Artwork there it is that's that's awesome. 74 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:17,079 So let's go to Japan. Is your what was? 75 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,760 It it's my third solo game, yeah, or my third game, yeah. 76 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,600 You know, I do design on like the expansions for tiny towns 77 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,200 and stuff. But if you talk about standalone 78 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,880 games that are Josh Wood products, it's Cat Lady than 79 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,040 Santa Monica. And now let's go to Japan. 80 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:35,800 Santa Monical's got quite a following, doesn't it? 81 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:38,160 Yeah, you know, it's, it's great. 82 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,400 All three of my games have had a good following. 83 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,440 People come up to me and tell me that they, they like the, the 84 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:48,200 various games that I've created. And I, I, I just appreciate any 85 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,360 time someone says nice about the work I, I do, I'm, I'm, I'm 86 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,200 always happy with the products that I put out. 87 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,280 Otherwise like I wouldn't put them out. 88 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,400 And so when people kind of tell me that they like them, it makes 89 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:01,640 me very happy. Yeah. 90 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:07,080 So we get to, I guess you're planning a trip to Japan in 91 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:12,040 2020, right? You've got Santa Monica and Cat 92 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,400 Lady under your belt. People know who you are. 93 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,440 And then the pandemic hits. Walk us through kind of how you 94 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:25,280 approached making this game and tying it to your plans for your 95 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:27,600 travel to Japan. Yeah. 96 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,040 I mean, when when the pandemic started, I was supposed to go to 97 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,640 Japan April first. So it was just a few weeks after 98 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:37,080 lockdowns when we were supposed to go. 99 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,000 So we had to cancel that trip. And there was this kind of 100 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,960 bargain, I guess, that I made myself to like make myself not 101 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:47,720 feel so bad about missing that trip that maybe if I made a game 102 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:52,120 about it, I wouldn't feel like if I made a game about the trip 103 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,160 I was going to take, it would maybe make me feel like the trip 104 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,840 actually happened. Or it was like a way to put, you 105 00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:00,360 know, to still like make that trip happen in some way, shape 106 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,960 or form. And, and, and look, you know, 107 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,680 obviously a game designers, they all decided to try to make games 108 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,960 during the pandemic, right? Like, you know, more free time 109 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,120 and stuff like that. And this is a great project for 110 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:13,800 me to do. I'd already done so much 111 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,240 research on Japan, and then I just did even more. 112 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,040 I even learned how to speak Japanese during that time 113 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,080 period. So I really wins all in because 114 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,840 it was just like, well, I'm just going to put everything I could 115 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:29,200 into this game. And so that's what I did. 116 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,240 So how? Okay, so the the lockdown is 117 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,520 announced, you can't, you're cancelled, your trip is 118 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,280 cancelled. How long from that point till 119 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:42,080 you start developing it into a game? 120 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,240 How long did that take? And was it like in a week you 121 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,480 were like, well, I got to turn this into a game or like, how 122 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,600 long did that process take? I guess? 123 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,600 And then emotionally, mentally, like all that. 124 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:55,280 Yeah, that's the that's the question. 125 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:59,480 So if the lockdown started, I'm guessing sometime in March if I 126 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,000 recall. I think so, yes. 127 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:06,520 And I think what happened was April first arrived and, you 128 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,080 know, I said to my partner like, well, we'd be going on to a 129 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,040 plane to Japan right now. And then I think when our return 130 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,560 date hits, which is like 10 days later or so, like April 10th or 131 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,080 11th. And I was like, Can you imagine 132 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,680 we would be getting home from Japan right now? 133 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,640 And I around that time, I think it's when I started going like, 134 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:28,800 I, you know, I think it's possible. 135 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:30,960 I started thinking about the idea, but I think that's when I 136 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:32,840 was like, you know, I think I just got to do this. 137 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:37,440 And like I said, just just really committed to it. 138 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,600 And, and, and I got to say like a huge thank you to, to AG 139 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,920 because I kind of just told them usually game designers, we make 140 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,080 a game and then we work on it for a long time. 141 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,680 And then we pitched it. You know, I kind of said to AG 142 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:52,760 like, Hey, I kind of want to make this game. 143 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:54,640 And then they're like, yeah, try and make that game. 144 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,960 And I mean, they're like, we'll see what happens, right? 145 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,720 But but you know, they they kind of gave me a lot of space to 146 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,280 work on it, which is really nice of them. 147 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,520 Cool, that's awesome. So you get the concept and 148 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,080 development. Is it natural for you whenever 149 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,520 you have some sort of life experience, a trip is cancelled, 150 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,440 you go to a party, whatever experience. 151 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,440 Is it natural for you as a game designer to think I need to make 152 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,320 this into a game? Or did that take some sort of 153 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:24,240 leap for you to? Yeah, it's interesting. 154 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,800 Designers are usually described as being mechanics first, theme 155 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,120 second or theme first, designed second. 156 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,440 So I think I just run through both those in my head at the 157 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,360 same time and then eventually, like I they just kind of click 158 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,200 in my mind. So for instance, with Santa 159 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,679 Monica, I knew I had this idea to make a tableau game where you 160 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:49,000 made a big like a card stacked on like kind of panorama that 161 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,400 you would finish the game with. And I wanted people to be like 162 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:53,960 moving around in the environment. 163 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,120 But I like didn't know what the theme I was going to do. 164 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,960 And then I was at the beach one day, ironically, I was a few 165 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:04,480 miles north in Malibu and I was I was at a beach there and I 166 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,640 thought like how beautiful it looked. 167 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,840 And I said, Oh, I wonder if I could do this and that. 168 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,800 I mean, that's so that's maybe the best way I can explain it. 169 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,480 Is that like I, I think about both things. 170 00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:19,600 This one was a little bit more theme first. 171 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,480 It's because it's like, well, they know it's going to be 172 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,400 Japan. They know what, you know, you're 173 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,960 going to be planning a trip, which is which is a mechanical 174 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:29,640 thing, but it's also the thematic thing. 175 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,760 And so a lot of the mechanisms are informed by the theme. 176 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,040 In fact, something that's kind of weird is there's times when 177 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:41,200 you're making a game like let's go Japan where people go, well, 178 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,680 why couldn't you have a card that scores you points based on 179 00:09:43,680 --> 00:09:45,440 this? And I'm like, well, that 180 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,120 doesn't, that doesn't really exist. 181 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,600 You know, you know, it's like, you know, people like what what 182 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:55,000 you really need is like more like shopping nature experiences 183 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,360 in the game. I'm like, well, there's not a 184 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,640 lot of shopping nature experiences in real life because 185 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:01,680 those two are a little bit diametrically opposed. 186 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,960 There is a, there is in the game a very famous mall that has like 187 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,440 a park on top of it. And that's like one of the only 188 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,400 shopping nature cards in the entire game. 189 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,120 But if someone says like, hey, I want more of this in the game, 190 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,080 it's like, well, too bad. It's got to like fit the source 191 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,040 material and you can try to fudge it a little bit. 192 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,040 But to me it was really important to get everything 193 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,520 right, right? Like I didn't want it coming out 194 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,120 and people going like, well, it's not really like that. 195 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,760 So that was important. So I tried to like not break 196 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,480 those rules as much as possible. So you had said your original 197 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,680 trip was for 10 days, 10 days. I think you said you were going 198 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:39,680 to you were you were intending to stay there for 10 days. 199 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,960 So then the game itself is over six days, right? 200 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:46,880 Yeah. So talk to me about that. 201 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:52,000 Why 6 and not the full 10? So for me it made sense to make 202 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:57,200 it 7 so 10 days would play. I I think too long and you would 203 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:01,000 need so many more cards for the deck and, and so 7 made the most 204 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,880 sense. It's a week, it's very balanced, 205 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,880 it's very harmonious. And then I think in play test I 206 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,520 just realized that someone just said, let's try shorten it like 207 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,520 by two days and see what happens. 208 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,480 And then I showed it one day because I was like, well, I 209 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,440 don't know about that. And I showed it one day. 210 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,160 I was like, oh, it's a little bit smoother. 211 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,720 And so I, it kind of just stayed that way. 212 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:21,800 So that's, that's the reason it felt like it. 213 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,720 That's a that's a way that the game, you know, mechanics 214 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:29,360 dictated the decision overall. So this just proves your point 215 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,600 that you as a designer balance theme and mechanics. 216 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,000 And this is exactly what happened in the final product, I 217 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:36,200 think. Yeah, absolutely. 218 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:41,680 Yeah, So what about the So you obviously did a lot of research 219 00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:44,600 because these cards are just magnificent and they're all real 220 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,680 places that you were intending to go. 221 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,240 There's the three you play 3 cards per day, right? 222 00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:55,280 And you're traveling between Tokyo and Kyoto, possibly back 223 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,000 and forth depending upon how the cards play in front of you. 224 00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:05,480 Why 2 cities and not just say Tokyo and do let's go to Tokyo? 225 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:07,680 Why the two? Was that because it was a 226 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:09,680 reflection of what your trip was going to be? 227 00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:11,880 Or is it? Yeah, Yeah, that's, that's 228 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:13,560 exactly right. So two things. 229 00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:16,400 One, I was going to go to Tokyo and Kyoto, OK. 230 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,840 And also that's kind of the two cities most people go on their 231 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,920 first trip to Japan, OK. And they're also very they're 232 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,480 very much different cities, even though that they're through the 233 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,640 biggest cities and something that maybe people don't know 234 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,880 when they play Let's go Japan, you know, there's the different 235 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,360 icons. And so there's more shopping and 236 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:42,360 food cards in Tokyo and there's more nature and friends in the 237 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,200 Kyoto deck. And, and because that's actually 238 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:51,280 how it is like when you go to Kyoto, it's it's more about 239 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,200 seeing the famous temples and shrines. 240 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,400 It's more about seeing things like cherry blossoms or kind of, 241 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,960 you know, it's not as busy of a city where if you go to Tokyo, 242 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,040 there's a lot more stopping opportunities. 243 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,480 And you know, it has the most Michelin star restaurant. 244 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,280 And so you can get great food everywhere. 245 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,040 But that's why you kind of do that breakdown. 246 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,320 So it was kind of a fun way to show two different types of 247 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,480 decks that are similar but different. 248 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,480 There's definitely experiences of both in each deck, but 249 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:24,280 there's this more of each of those types. 250 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,280 So and I think that frames are actually like a really important 251 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,160 part of like kind of going to Japan. 252 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,640 So it was kind of fun to kind of put a train mechanism in the 253 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,440 game. Right, so that's cool. 254 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:42,040 So this game was so last year in April, I traveled to England and 255 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,080 it was the first time that Gareth and I got to meet in 256 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,320 person. The very first game we played at 257 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,320 his house was Let's Go to Japan. He had the Kickstarter exclusive 258 00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:54,600 with the porcelain cups and the neoprene mats was beautiful. 259 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,360 It was a great experience, so thank you for that. 260 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:02,320 Thank the graphic designers and the artists who are like in 261 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,360 Japan. Okay. 262 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,840 All the artists are are like Japan based artists and so they 263 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,520 really make the game like look good that that in the art. 264 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,640 Graphic designer Bridget, he's amazing. 265 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,760 Sorry, continue with your story. So make sure I got that in 266 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,240 there. No, absolutely. 267 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,400 Thank you to the Japanese and graphic designers and artists 268 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,040 for that because it really comes through. 269 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,240 It has a unique look to it compared to other board games 270 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,080 and our collections. But so I had just come back from 271 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,680 four days in London and now I'm in Southampton where Gareth 272 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,200 lives. And so naturally, as we're 273 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,120 playing the game, we were talking about how this could 274 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,720 easily become a let's go to London or a let's go to Chicago. 275 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:45,920 You could pick different tourists. 276 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,600 And we talked a little bit about this in our previous, our first 277 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,840 try at this interview, right? It's like, could you do, do you 278 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,000 foresee doing other things? One of the things I noticed, and 279 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,120 I really want to get your input on this, is when I have 280 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,960 conversation with people about this game and we talk about they 281 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,640 could do this and this, it's always a single city. 282 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,560 Let's go to London, let's go to New York, let's go to Berlin, 283 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:12,240 let's go to Paris, right? But the key to this game is 284 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:18,640 there's two, there's two cities. And so talk about that and how 285 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,120 you would see any future iterations of this game. 286 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,800 Let's go somewhere else. Yeah. 287 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,520 So it's interesting. So let's say I wanted to do 288 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,720 let's go to France next. The problem is that with France, 289 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,160 you're going to mostly go to Paris, and Paris has enough 290 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,000 things to support a big deck. And there are other great places 291 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,640 to go. You can go into the Normandy 292 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,240 region. You could go out to Strasburg. 293 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,640 But like, for instance, I couldn't make a Strasburg deck 294 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,400 because you kind of go for the Christmas markets, for instance, 295 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,440 right? Or like if there is another big 296 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,000 city, it's kind of far away. It's not something you can hop 297 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,000 back and forth on. In fact, your next big closest 298 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,480 city is actually London. And then it's like, well, do you 299 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,080 do like, let's go to Europe and then you're just going to London 300 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,320 and and Paris. That sounds weird. 301 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,800 So you know, I do foresee sometimes like you, I mean, but 302 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,320 you can find examples where you could do it. 303 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,920 You could do Italy and you can make it Florence and Rome. 304 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,160 You can do Venice and Rome. You could do Florence and Venice 305 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:17,760 or maybe all three of those, right? 306 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,640 There are ways to do it, but there's also maybe ways that 307 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,880 because if I make like another Let's Go game and what we've 308 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,520 been talking about is a couple things. 309 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,160 One has got to be something that I'm interested in doing the 310 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,400 research for because I want to make sure I keep that 311 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,520 authenticity. And then to like, like, I feel 312 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,400 OK with changing the mechanism so maybe the trains can come out 313 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,520 and then maybe I can put something else back in that 314 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,240 makes you feel like a diversity of areas. 315 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,600 Something like we did with the day trips expansion. 316 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,240 Because, you know, let's go to Japan, there was the day trips 317 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:57,080 expansion that allows you go to Osaka or Nara or Yokohama, 318 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,560 right? Because I knew there was going 319 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,120 to be some people who are like, I really want to have this place 320 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,040 in there, right? And let's face it, there's a lot 321 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,760 of great places to go to in many countries. 322 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,000 So, you know, I, I think you just have to, you know, you have 323 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,440 to try to like weigh what people are expecting versus what can 324 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,960 you give them that's new. How can we change the game? 325 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,079 What can we do differently? Because also like, it's like, if 326 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:27,240 you just kind of just change the art and the names of the titles, 327 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:28,880 it's not going to be that exciting. 328 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:30,680 You have to kind of get something new. 329 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,720 Like I really like how the Great Western Trail games work, for 330 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,600 instance, on giving you something kind of new but 331 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,080 familiar each time. And so I think that's I would 332 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,880 take. Is there any plans for a future 333 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,560 iteration of a Let's go to in the future? 334 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,720 Something you're working on, something you're just having 335 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,600 conversations with AEG about. Yeah, we're, we're having 336 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,960 conversations about places that we could go. 337 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,160 Are we thinking like more abstract things? 338 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,200 You know, someone at my company is like, why couldn't we do 339 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,600 let's go to the moon and it's all about the space race. 340 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,680 Sure that, that was a little too abstract for me, but I, I don't 341 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,320 know, like if I had the idea, I could do that. 342 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:16,800 So we have had a lot of conversations about like what 343 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,000 places would work, what like mechanisms would need to change. 344 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,240 So there's like a blueprint of like what, what could work. 345 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,560 Right now we're just really excited about let's go Japan. 346 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,200 We really are trying to get the message out about the game, 347 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,920 having people play it. You know, the game is less than 348 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,480 one year old, so we're still just trying to make sure we give 349 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,880 it all the love. But we're, you know, I and plus, 350 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,000 I can't help but think about things whenever I travel. 351 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,960 I went to London last year. I went to France last year. 352 00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:47,240 I went to Thailand last year. And yes, every single second I 353 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,440 was in those places. I'm like, how would I do? 354 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,680 Let's go to Thailand, you know, like, could I put rickshaws in 355 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:53,560 the game? You know? 356 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:58,040 And so it gets into your brain. You're always like thinking like 357 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,680 what could I do? So I'm curious, it's kind of a 358 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,240 two-part question. What was your favorite, What was 359 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,720 your element, your favorite experience of developing the 360 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,920 game? And the second part is what was 361 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:17,120 your favorite or what is your favorite card or location in the 362 00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:20,360 game? It's both good questions. 363 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:26,520 So while making Let's Go Japan, there was kind of 2 little 364 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,080 breakthroughs. 1 was kind of coming up with the idea of the 365 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:35,080 highlight of the day, which is if you've collected a certain 366 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,000 number of symbols, you get to score a bonus at the end of the 367 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,280 day that you chose. So that was a, that was a really 368 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,400 cool thing that I learned or that we discovered, you know. 369 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:51,320 But I think for me, the concept of the walks are really 370 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:55,040 interesting because they add to sort of that story that you can 371 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,200 tell at the end of the game, because we had the story at the 372 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,560 end of the game and it actually always started with like a story 373 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,560 you told at the end of the game. But I think that it was like a 374 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,120 little, it was like kind of clunky, and then I streamlined 375 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,240 it all the way. And then I was like, well, I 376 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,760 want there to be decisions and things that are surprises 377 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,600 happening because that's a big thing about being on vacation. 378 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,480 You have certain surprises, you go out. 379 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,280 When I was in Japan, I was at the Sensoji Temple, and I've 380 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,080 been to the Sensoji Temple. It's a big temple. 381 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:27,640 It's beautiful. It's great. 382 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,920 And then as I was like, I wouldn't around a corner and 383 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,640 they had like a baby crying competition going on and I 384 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,040 didn't know that was going to be going on. 385 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,560 Yeah, they have like these. It's it's very interesting. 386 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,440 They had these babies come in and like their parents hold them 387 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,400 and then a guy tries to make scary faces at them and which 388 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,440 someone cries for wins, I believe. 389 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,480 Or maybe you lose because you're about trying to be brave. 390 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,280 I don't quite remember. So like I didn't know this was a 391 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:55,680 thing and I just stumbled upon it. 392 00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:58,360 And and that's like the thing with the walks is that you put 393 00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:01,360 these face on cards and then you flip them over and you're like, 394 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:06,560 I was here and then I ran into this thing and I decided to stay 395 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,600 and do it. It's a thing that's like 396 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,920 unscheduled. So that was the biggest 397 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,680 breakthrough. My favorite card in the game is 398 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,640 probably the Cocodera Temple. Cocodera Temple. 399 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,160 Yeah, there's only one of it in the game and it gives you 2 400 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:27,440 nature, it gives you a temple and a unique experience icon. 401 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:29,600 And so it gives you a lot of icons. 402 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,960 It doesn't give you any points and it and it costs you money, 403 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,920 but it's it's just it's a good card to kind of set you up for 404 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,800 like later on the game if you played early or you can play it 405 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,360 for its final scoring thing and it's and scores, I think for 406 00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:47,800 nature and unique experiences. So there's like a really fun 407 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,040 route that I like to take if I get that card early. 408 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,880 That's one of my favorite cards the game and and I went there in 409 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,000 real life and it's a really cool experience to actually kind of 410 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:01,360 it's this temple. Kokodera means Moss temple in 411 00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:03,840 Japanese. That's actually just its 412 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,560 colloquial name. It's got a different name, Sai 413 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:07,680 Ho do you guys think it's called? 414 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,840 But Kokodera is what they call it, which means Moss temple. 415 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:14,720 And it's because it's got these like hundreds of different 416 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,040 species of Moss around there. And to get a reservation, you 417 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,240 actually have to mail them a postcard. 418 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:25,680 There's a way to do online, but for the longest time, you had, 419 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,080 like, mail them a postcard. And so it's like a very unique 420 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,040 thing to do when you're in Japan to try to like, get this 421 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,600 reservation before you go by sending them a postcard and just 422 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,440 seeing what happened. Interesting. 423 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,360 And so like what I think about that card a lot, you know, might 424 00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:44,880 the experience of it. So that that's probably my 425 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,040 favorite card in the game. It's tough to choose. 426 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:48,960 Oh, I get it. I understand. 427 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,520 No, that's why I asked the difficult questions. 428 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,920 What was, if anything, was probably the most surprising in 429 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,960 the course of the development of the game from concept to finish. 430 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,840 Is there something that just stuck out to you like whoa that 431 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:10,080 I didn't expect that or? I mean, that's a lot of things 432 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,000 happen when you're designing a game that surprised you. 433 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,240 You know, there was a time when I felt like everything was just 434 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,640 not going to work out. And then just when I mean, just 435 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,880 the whole process, when it starts to work and you go, oh, I 436 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,520 like this. And there there becomes a time 437 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,840 when you get close to finishing the game and you play the game 438 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,320 100 times or more. And when you actually have that 439 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,480 feeling like you're like, oh, I just want to play this game. 440 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,760 Like, you know, let's go to pants now on Porgy Marina. 441 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,400 Yep, and I enjoy just going on board game arena and playing it. 442 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,120 It's it's just still like a lot of fun. 443 00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:51,360 So I think the most surprising thing for me is just how much 444 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:56,280 I've enjoyed, you know, here's the most surprising thing. 445 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,720 This is technically after the game, but I was very surprised 446 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,760 at how much during the Kickstarter, the comments 447 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:04,880 weren't like, why is shipping this much? 448 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,800 Or you know, like things that people talk about that like what 449 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,960 are you trying to do? I don't want porcelain bulls or 450 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,080 whatever. But it was mostly focused 451 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,840 around, hey, I had the same story happened to me. 452 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,840 I didn't get to go to Japan because the pandemic. 453 00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:19,240 People were like, I had a cancelled trip. 454 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,440 I was went to Japan. I saw this place. 455 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,040 I look, you know, people tell me all their stories about going to 456 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,920 Japan or similar places that they were going to go to. 457 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,160 I think that's the most surprising is just how how much 458 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,120 that people were able to connect with the theme and the story. 459 00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:38,080 Because originally the title of the game was going to be called 460 00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:42,520 My Trip to Japan, because it was all about my trip I didn't get 461 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,960 to take. And then and then I felt like 462 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,480 that was a bit maudlin or whatever. 463 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,920 So I just was kind of like, let's make it, let's go to Japan 464 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,000 to make it more fun, exciting, because it's everybody's trip, 465 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:57,320 everyone coming along. And it turned out that's kind of 466 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,120 the true thing. Everyone is, you know, has been 467 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:04,520 couldn't go, wants to go. I mean, obviously not everyone, 468 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,680 but you know, it's, it's amazing how many people are like, wow, 469 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,560 like I'm going to Japan soon and I'm like using your cards as 470 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,080 like a way to learn more about the cities we're going to. 471 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,440 Definitely. I think that's what makes this 472 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,680 game stand out from so many others is because you're 473 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,400 interacting with very real locations and a very real 474 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:29,600 culture that you could plan a trip to Japan by using the 475 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,000 components and the cards in your game. 476 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,320 OK, I can plan this. And, you know, think about that. 477 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,040 Do you have for anyone who's either hasn't played the game 478 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,040 yet or is new to the game or even our season, I think we had 479 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,200 an episode where we talked about the emerging qualities in games. 480 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,440 We're playing them multiple times and our different 481 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,640 strategies kind of rise to the surface and play a game over and 482 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,600 over. Do you have any strategies? 483 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,040 Any tips for players when they're playing Let's Go to 484 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,920 Japan? Yeah, there's actually a lot of 485 00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:03,200 like little subtle things that you can learn from playing it. 486 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,920 It's a game that I think some people will play and go again. 487 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,440 I match the icons and I just do my best or whatever. 488 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,360 But there's a lot of strategies that you can do. 489 00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:15,120 So one that I love to do is early in the game, if I don't 490 00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:18,520 have some, like if I see a great card that I want to be my final 491 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,640 scoring card. So that's usually something 492 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:26,520 that's going to score me at least 20 points potentially I 493 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,320 will play it. If not, I actually might just 494 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:34,520 take those cards and discard them and put walks down on the 495 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,440 day that wants green symbols, because then you can get some 496 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,120 research tokens so you can start looking for certain cards later. 497 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,040 And then also you're still contributing towards the the 498 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,880 final goal for that day, which is try to match the icons on 499 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,080 that day. That's that's a really good 500 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,320 strategy that I think that a lot of people will get better at if 501 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,680 they can kind of like learn how to do that. 502 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:57,640 Excellent. So take a walk. 503 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,200 Do not underestimate the role of the research tokens. 504 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,640 Yes, because we take a walk, you get a research token. 505 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:11,120 And so it's like a good way to get to kind of to slow play the 506 00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:14,720 game because it actually is sometimes good to not commit 507 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,320 hard to a strategy early on because you don't know what 508 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,800 you're going to get, right? So it's like kind of good to 509 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,680 kind of like wait and build up a little bit. 510 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,480 And that's why it's important to be able to change their goal by 511 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,800 sticking the card on top. It's like, OK, I don't feel like 512 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,160 I'm getting enough food for this strategy, so I'm going to change 513 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,120 it to more stopping. I think that's that's my big 514 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:37,080 thing is like, don't rush in. Just kind of like let the game 515 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,920 kind of build itself. And then there's a certain time 516 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,680 where you need to transition from hopefully playing it to 517 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,400 like, focusing on what you're doing. 518 00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:48,040 That's a great that's great. I hope you guys are listening. 519 00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:52,240 That's great because I have to admit I've I often overlook the 520 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,560 role of the research tokens and that's that's good. 521 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,040 That's that's definitely great. Something to keep in mind. 522 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:03,200 Do you have any tips, design insights for any up and coming 523 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,400 or new board game designers or just people who are thinking 524 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:07,880 about designing their first game? 525 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,680 Anything that you would want them to know that you've 526 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,560 learned. Yeah, I think that the most 527 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:22,200 important thing about being a game designer is get the game 528 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,440 out of your head. A lot of times people go, well, 529 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,520 hold on, I just need to think about it for a couple more 530 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,720 months or like, wait, well, like in my head this doesn't quite 531 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,720 work. And the fact of the matter is, 532 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,720 is that you just got to get something to work. 533 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,760 Like if it's not working perfectly in your head, put it 534 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,960 up, put it to paper, play it because then it will help the 535 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,480 ideas come more play test just will help you and say like, oh, 536 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,760 well, I didn't find this working, so let's go to Japan. 537 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,360 Originally had dice rolling in it. 538 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,760 And like, it's something you would never think based on what 539 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,440 happened. And it was like a way to kind of 540 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,000 represent, you know, fortune and misfortune and, and like, and 541 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,320 let's go Japan. You also had a budget. 542 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,040 You started with just like a certain number of like yen 543 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,440 symbols and certain and every card had a cost. 544 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,480 And so you deplete your your like money as you're playing. 545 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,680 And I thought like, oh, this is a way to make the game have a 546 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,000 lot of texture and because because for me, right, let's go 547 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,280 to Japan. It's a little bit of an exercise 548 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:20,600 that a lot of games they're doing right now. 549 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,360 It's what like Arc Nova and we span do, which is cards have a 550 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,280 lot of icons and a lot of different abilities on them. 551 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,840 So each card can mean a lot, right? 552 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,120 Like the wingspan of every bird is written in wingspan and it 553 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,320 doesn't necessarily come to play that often, but when it kind of 554 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,760 feels nice, like you feel like, OK, this is a real bird. 555 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,560 Someone took the time, did the research, you know, like 556 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,040 Elizabeth definitely sat down and knew what she was doing. 557 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,120 And so I thought if I had like, there was a whole bunch of 558 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,640 things in there, like I had specific cards can be played on 559 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,240 certain days because that thing is actually closed every Monday. 560 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,720 So I was like, great, I'll put that in there. 561 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,960 And then I had money cost and felt like it was also though 562 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,920 like then too stressful. And so there's still has to be a 563 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,960 little bit of like a little bit of like, let's make this a fun 564 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,840 experience, not like homework. So what do you say to someone 565 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,360 who's thinking about making a game and they're like, but I 566 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,360 don't, I don't have the card stock. 567 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,440 I don't have the equipment to print anything. 568 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,760 Like, you know, it's like it's not going to look good the first 569 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,280 time. What would you say to someone 570 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,280 like that? Yeah, my first prototype of Cat 571 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,960 Lady in Santa Monica. And I'll use Santa Monica as a 572 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,720 bigger example because that game really relies on having art on 573 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,000 all the cards because of like how it builds the panorama. 574 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,240 I hand through scribbles for the waves and everything. 575 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,960 I hand through every single card on pen. 576 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,000 And I just got, I bought blank cards on online for like $15.00. 577 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,360 You don't have to dive in expensively. 578 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,040 And in fact, I wouldn't like, I wouldn't worry so much about 579 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,400 thinking about graphics and art really early on. 580 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,600 Think about things that are clean and concise, that makes 581 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,080 sense. But actually what's going to 582 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,640 happen is you're going to throw away so many copies of your 583 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:04,960 game. You're just going to make 584 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,760 something and go, you're going to like spend like 5 hours 585 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,400 making your, your game or whatever, 10 hours. 586 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,280 And then you're just going to throw it away or half of the 587 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:15,560 way. Or you're just going to take 588 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,320 some like white out and just write over it or scratch out 589 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,880 something like you. You're just going to, you got to 590 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,200 get used to. It's like everything can't be 591 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,640 sacred to your prototype. It's just a prototype. 592 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,320 Your prototype is eventually going to get thrown away. 593 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,800 Or if you're a crazy person like me, like I saw some of my 594 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,000 original prototypes just to show people like, look, this is what 595 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:38,400 it looks like. It's, it's messy. 596 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,320 It's it's. It's weird, but you do it. 597 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,440 I'm I'm so glad you said that I had a play testing experience. 598 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:46,200 Gen. Con. 599 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,760 I do a lot of play testing and we were play testing a game and 600 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,920 the cards were beautiful. They were glossy. 601 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,800 The artwork, I mean, it looked like that the designer was ready 602 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,720 to launch, you know, Kickstarter, retail, whatever. 603 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,040 I was like, so I was like withholding my comments. 604 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,200 The game had problems mechanically, but it was 605 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,320 beautiful. He left to take a break, came 606 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,360 back and so we asked him, he's like, So what draft do you want? 607 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,880 He's like, this is my second draft and I'm like, oh, so 608 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,040 you're early in the development. I was like, OK, he spent so much 609 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,040 time on the making it look good that I was worried like my 610 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,120 inputs not going to be helpful. And then it's like, OK, yeah. 611 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,920 So I would say definitely don't worry about what it looks like. 612 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,480 Yeah, unless you're like a very like seasoned designer who who 613 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,720 gets to like stage like, you know, three quicker than 614 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,760 everyone else early on, you've got to just know that your stuff 615 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:44,680 like just just like like don't put, you don't need to put 616 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,240 artwork on unless it's like a game that's crucial about having 617 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,600 artwork. Just, you know, it's fine text 618 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,560 boxes. That's what we need, simple 619 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,440 icons that people can follow. Yeah, you don't. 620 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,640 You don't actually. And actually you're going to be 621 00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,080 less. It's going to be less useful for 622 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,560 you because I think like you just said, you were like worried 623 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,520 about getting comments because you're like, oh, I don't want 624 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,200 to. I don't want to upset this 625 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:07,720 person. Now. 626 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,520 Now I believe play testers should always like even if I 627 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,800 mean, look at you know, the game is like I'm like, OK, we're 628 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,320 about to send the suppressed like you, you know, maybe that's 629 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,880 the only time that you don't you should be like, OK, I'm going to 630 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,680 make these massive changes. If you have something like like 631 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,400 this would be blue because instead of green. 632 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,280 It was a little bit hard for me to to see you know, you know, 633 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,880 you know, play Chester could always feel free to just say 634 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,240 what needs to be said. And sometimes like it, like you 635 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,000 said, things look too nice. People are a little bit scared 636 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,120 to say things. So don't be don't be precious. 637 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,040 Love your game and keep loving your game. 638 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,320 Try to find the reasons why you love your game and keep that 639 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:48,720 true when you're making your game. 640 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,720 But don't be so precious about anything in particular. 641 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,000 Because there were things that I really wanted to keep them. 642 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,040 Let's go Japan like I thought really hard to keep the money in 643 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,040 the game. People told me a couple times, 644 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:05,080 like I tried taking it out and I was like, I want to remake every 645 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,080 single card without the money. And like, I, I did all that 646 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,760 research and I just think it's right. 647 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,920 And it gives all these texture, these cards because you can see 648 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,360 that this thing is like, and like I still kept in, like 649 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,080 there's expensive cards and there's cards that wear you 650 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,600 down, but there's like cheap cards or whatever. 651 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,600 But, you know, it was like this whole track and I just was like, 652 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,120 I don't want to get rid of it. And then I got rid of it and I 653 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,880 said, I'm really glad we got rid of it. 654 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,639 Yeah, maybe that was a big surprise that that that happened 655 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,960 making the game that I mean, like I was so stir. 656 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,719 I in fact, like, I feel like it was a it was another AG employee 657 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,400 who kept telling me to do it. It was Neil Kimball, the the 658 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,199 designer of Sheepy Time and and he kept telling me like to take 659 00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:45,159 it out. I'm sure there's other people 660 00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:47,480 that told me to take it out, but he was like very adamant about 661 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,440 it and just I was like, fine, Neil, I'm going to show you that 662 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,440 you're wrong. I took it out and then it was 663 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,040 great and I was like, OK. That's amazing. 664 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,160 I'm, I'm trying to, I'm listening to you talking. 665 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,440 I'm like, what would this game look like with money involved? 666 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,320 Like as a player, I think would make me nervous because like I 667 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,240 got to watch my budget, which of course we have to struggle when 668 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:12,440 you travel. Yeah, yeah. 669 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,920 And I mean, and that's actually what what I was trying to 670 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,720 simulate because sometimes you go, OK, I'll pony up the dough 671 00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:20,960 to go to this like Michelin star restaurant. 672 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,120 But you know what, We're staying in the less nice hotel where 673 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,000 we're like, we can't sit first class on the train. 674 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:32,480 We got to the coach area, right? Yes, By the way, the trains in 675 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,120 Japan are always nice, so. Well, there you go. 676 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,840 Hey, Speaking of which, are there any future travel plans 677 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,760 for you personally? Is AG planning on sending you 678 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,440 anywhere soon? Anything you can be looking 679 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,760 forward to? That's a good question. 680 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,520 I mean, because of this game, I was able to go to Thailand last 681 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,640 year and then I went to Philly. I don't know. 682 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:56,600 I mean, I'm hoping they send me the places, especially like if 683 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,640 we decide to do another Let's Go game, I'm like, I'd like can I 684 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,400 convince them to send me to that place for research, right? 685 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,920 It would be perfect. But you know, can I can send pay 686 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:07,080 for it? I don't, we don't. 687 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,480 They're not planning to send me anywhere specific. 688 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,760 I mean, I probably will be back at 10 Con this year. 689 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,680 I think I'll try to go back to PAX this year. 690 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,560 I wonder if I could go to Gamma this year or something. 691 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,320 I guess that's close, so maybe not. 692 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,720 Speaking of packs, how was that experience? 693 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:25,760 I wasn't able to go, but I know you were there. 694 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,400 How did that go? Yeah, PAX is my first time going 695 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,160 to PAX. It was my first time also being 696 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,760 in Philly since I was, I went to Philly when I was like maybe 8 697 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,000 or 9 or something. So a different perspective on 698 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,960 it. And, and it was a lot of fun to 699 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,200 just see people that I usually don't get to see because, you 700 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,000 know, people start to get in place of their conventions. 701 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,200 And it's like, oh, some people only go to like PAX and this 702 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,960 other one that I don't go to. It's like, I go to PAX and Ice 703 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,080 Tower and it's like, well, I don't really go to those two. 704 00:36:55,080 --> 00:37:01,000 But you know, I know, I know you have to like choose. 705 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,720 I mean, like, you know, luckily I get to go to a couple more. 706 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,800 So like work and, and, you know, run the booth. 707 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,760 And it's always nice because when you have a game come out 708 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,520 and you get to try to sell it to people and meet people. 709 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,520 I mean, that was really nice. And we did a lot of cool stuff 710 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,120 at the conventions last year. You know, we got some Gotsapama 711 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,120 scenes and we were giving out these little wooden figures of 712 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,360 like on the Gary rice balls and sushi and little Tori gates. 713 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,280 And that was. AI got I got 1. 714 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:27,640 Yeah, you got the Tory gates. Nice. 715 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,680 That's my favorite one. I love his little hands he's 716 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,800 got. Yeah, we got this at Gen. 717 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,200 Con. So yeah, I. 718 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,600 You know, you know, I drew all those too. 719 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,240 Did you? Yeah, I, I just, I, it was, it 720 00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:41,720 was my kind of concept. And like, I think once again, I 721 00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:43,360 just like, I kind of want them to look like this. 722 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,000 And then they're like, just let's just use those. 723 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,120 And I'm like, all right, let's do it. 724 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,960 Well, knowing that you drew this makes it even cooler if I'm 725 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,120 being honest. Like that's, that's kind of 726 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,040 cool. It's not like some some nameless 727 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,080 person designed it. But no, no, that's cool. 728 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:00,080 That's great. Appreciate it. 729 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,880 What any any future plans terms of game titles that you can 730 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,600 share with us from coming from AG AG 2025? 731 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,320 What should anyone be looking forward to? 732 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,160 Yeah, we got a lot of stuff in the works. 733 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,720 We have some expansion stuff coming. 734 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,560 So you're going to see another Tiny Towns expansion. 735 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,200 OK, You will see expansions to a lot of your favorite AG games, 736 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,560 but the next our next big consider actually, I happen to 737 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:30,680 have it here big heroes. This is from Phil Walker 738 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,160 Harding. This is a prototype, so you have 739 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:34,680 to kind of forgive it a little bit. 740 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,520 The thing that's really cool about it is that it's a card 741 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,400 crafting game. So right here we see a clever 742 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,400 spirit and it is made-up of a clever card and a spirit card. 743 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,560 And so they combined to have like one ability and a second 744 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,920 ability. And So what his kind of pitch 745 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,560 was, it's like, oh, I kind of want to make like a TCG game, 746 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,680 you know, a game with like 10,000 cards, but he's like, I, 747 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:02,200 I can't design 10,000 cards. So like in this way, you know, 748 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,560 with like 60 cards, you already have thousands of cards that 749 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,520 could be created. And so it's a little tableau 750 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,680 builder about kind of like putting people in like 751 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,280 arrangements and stuff. It's a lot of fun. 752 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:18,720 I'm very, very excited for people to play it. 753 00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:20,560 That starts as long as been marked. 754 00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:23,600 I'm a developer on it, so I've been working really closely with 755 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,840 with it and I'm really excited for it because it is. 756 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,840 So we got we hired this artist and he's like super cool. 757 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,160 I love the style we're working on just making the best game it 758 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,200 could possibly be. And I think it's incredible. 759 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,720 So that's awesome. That's that's what I like to 760 00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:38,920 pitch right now. Cool. 761 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:40,200 Well, thanks. Thank you for sharing. 762 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,640 That's great. So you guys, if you're listening 763 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,120 to this on podcasting streaming services, you missed out, you're 764 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,760 going to have to go to YouTube so you can see what he just 765 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,560 showed us a few little little snippets that was pretty great. 766 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,400 So where can folks find you and AEG on all the social media 767 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,920 platforms? Yeah, I'm on a lot of the social 768 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,360 media platforms, Sir. Josh Wood. 769 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,120 Sir Josh Wood, I found you today. 770 00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:11,600 I added you on Instagram today. Perfect Instagram is the one 771 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:16,120 that I used the most, although I think it's been a little bit 772 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:17,480 weird. I feel like I haven't posted 773 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,720 quite enough on this trip. I haven't been playing the board 774 00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:23,720 games actually the last the last couple of weeks so. 775 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,240 You got a lot going on so. I'm, I'm looking forward to 776 00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:29,440 getting back to playing some board games, so hopefully 777 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:30,560 they'll they'll come around soon. 778 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,240 Well, guys, thanks for listening. 779 00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:36,160 Josh, thanks for joining me and everything we've been dealing 780 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:37,920 with trying to get you on the show. 781 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,240 Don't forget to like and subscribe. 782 00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:43,200 Please leave comments below. If you have questions for Josh, 783 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,960 he'll be able to see them in the YouTube channel. 784 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,880 Everybody, thanks a lot, Josh. All of our prayers and thoughts 785 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,000 with you and the AEG family as you're dealing with all the 786 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:56,320 fires in Los Angeles and the larger community in the LA area 787 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,280 as well. Yeah, I appreciate you saying 788 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,480 that and thank you so much and thank you for having me on the 789 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,480 show was it was great. This is fantastic. 790 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,040 I appreciate it. Thanks again guys, and we'll see 791 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:07,720 you next time.