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Welcome to Meeple to Meeple, 
uniting players around the 

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world. 
A 30 minute exploration of PJ 

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and Gareth's four-game 
experiences from across both 

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sides of the Atlantic. 
Each episode they share their 

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thoughts and opinions on the 
World of War games, including 

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their favorite themes, games, 
hot topics, and much, much more.

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Hey guys, and welcome to a bonus
episode of Meeble to Meeble. 

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That's right, PJ has gone rogue 
once again and we're going to do

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a solo. 
I was given a preview copy of an

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upcoming game for done by Drag 
and Dawn Productions, and I have

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the designer with me, Ren 
Maltomacki. 

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Thank you, Ren for joining us. 
Well, thank you for inviting me.

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It's a real a real pleasure to 
be here. 

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Yeah, well, this was exciting 
project for me. 

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I had never done anything like 
this before. 

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It's usually me and my partner 
Gareth, and we just invite 

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designers and play games and 
just talk about whatever comes 

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to mind. 
So this was a unique experience,

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so thanks for giving me the 
opportunity. 

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Yeah, I, I'm, I'm interested to,
to see where this goes. 

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And I think you are you are 
equally surprised where where 

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the path may lead the discussion
I guess. 

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So I wanted to dive right in. 
So the game is called Verdun. 

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It is set in the battle Verdun 
in the First World War and I 

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wanted to start with the theme. 
I was curious about how you made

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the decision to set the game at 
this time in this event. 

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Is World War 1A a passionate 
subject of yours and your 

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personal study, or did it? 
How did that, how did that come 

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together? 
Well, I'm always interested of 

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like finding a strong, a strong 
team or topic for for the games.

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That's how I start my games, 
that there needs to be a team or

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topic that I I think it's 
proving to be deep enough and 

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where there is an amount of 
passion. 

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I'm an aficionado of history and
war history in general. 

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So it's not strictly speaking 
World War One, but wars in more 

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general fashion. 
But now that we are again 

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getting closer and closer to 
110th anniversary of, of Battle 

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of Gardun, that's, that would be
like in less than two years. 

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I, I was like interested of 
seeing if we could, we could 

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somehow revisit that. 
And at least here in Europe, 

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people are seeing quite a lot of
like political situation that 

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resembles a little bit or more 
than a little bit what what the 

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world was just before World War 
One. 

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So when you were, when you 
landed on the theme, did the 

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mechanics 'cause it's a, it's a 
kind of a trick taking one 

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versus 1-2 versus 2 trick taking
game, Did that naturally 

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marriage together or did you go 
through multiple mechanic 

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versions before you landed on 
this? 

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I think this was one of those 
games where I where I can quite 

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honestly say that when I finally
like had a marriage of team and 

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and the mechanics, it did change
very little from that from that 

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time to what it is now. 
And I think we we can safely say

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that right now it would be 
completely ready to send for the

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manufacturing if we would only 
have the money for it. 

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And that's why we have the 
crowdfunding, because we are 

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such a small studio that we 
can't actually produce anything 

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unless there is some sort of 
crowdfunding that enables the 

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the production. 
So tell us a little bit more 

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about how the game works. 
The trick taking is kind of 

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interesting. 
It's not a very straightforward 

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what Amire American listeners 
may be used to at trick taking. 

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It's a little bit different. 
In fact, I think your 

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description had someone 
mentioned a comparison to 

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Twilight Struggle. 
Because the cards that you have 

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in your hand, they might be 
yours, but they might also 

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strengthen your opponent. 
Can you talk a little bit more 

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about how that works in the 
game? 

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Yes, it is a sort of a trick 
taking game about like you 

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mentioned a little bit, well 
more than a little bit unusual 

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because there are only two suits
and then as all cards are that 

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are in the deck are also in 
play. 

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On average you get half of your 
own team, French or German. 

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And on average the other half is
then opponents cards. 

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And as you have to play every 
single card, it's an, it's an 

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interesting question that at 
which time would you like to 

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play something that benefits 
your own team and therefore gets

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you maybe more points? 
And at which time do you want to

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play some of those cards that 
you really need to play at, at 

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the time, which are then 
directly benefiting your 

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opponents? 
And as it's a game where we 

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wanted to try to bring the team 
quite nicely in front, the the 

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key fact in here is that every 
single card is kind of like a 

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depicting a troop of soldiers 
and those troop of soldiers will

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die. 
So for each battle that's one 

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trick, there will be casualties.
Minimum casualties is like the 

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the the smallest card of the 
winning side and the largest 

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card of the losing side will 
will die. 

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Then there are some modifiers 
that will modify that and even 

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more can die. 
And those debt troops are then 

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providing negative points. 
And I think you could safely say

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that it's a, it's a game where 
you need to manage the, the 

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amount of debt and winning 
these, these victory points, 

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which are positive victory 
points, very, very, very 

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seldomly lead into a situation 
where your total victory points 

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are actually positive. 
And I, I made it specifically so

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that that it would remind that 
this particular battle was an 

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exceptionally bloody battle, an 
exceptionally long battle, and 

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quite unnecessary because not 
much of anything actually was 

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was achieved in the whole whole 
battle, even though it killed 

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over half a million soldiers. 
Right, right Yep and that's a 

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good point to remember as well. 
I think, I think the thing that 

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drew me to this game is the, the
theme is so rich. 

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And then you have successfully 
captured that tension between 

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the two armies during Verdun. 
Like you really feel that cause 

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it's like every time you play a 
card, it's you're, you're 

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debating on whether or not 
you're going to give power to 

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your opponent. 
But also, if I lose, do I really

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want to lose this many 
casualties? 

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I think that every time we 
played the game, it was a matter

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of, and I know you're, you know 
this as well, but every time we 

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played the game, the winner was 
always the one with the least 

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amount of negative points. 
That's how it goes, yeah. 

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But how to how to reach that, 
that least amount of negative 

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points for that there are no 
straightforward and and easy 

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explanations that would give you
an overall gaming strategy that 

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if you apply this strategy, it 
always works because it, it is 

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very interactive, which is I 
think a little bit unusual for 

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trick taker that there is player
interaction and some, some 

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communication issues, especially
when you play with four players 

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and you need to try to consider 
that, OK, how do I communicate 

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with, with my team member that, 
OK, this is my plan. 

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I'm planning to do that kind of 
thing. 

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And hopefully you can help me 
with this because there are 

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there's no hidden communication 
allowed. 

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So all the things that you 
communicate has to be done so 

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that everyone hears that or sees
that. 

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And that limits your 
possibilities of of making a 

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joint strategy that that would 
be helpful because you cannot 

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tell that what do you have in 
your hand that's not allowed. 

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Yeah, that was that was probably
the most comfortable aspect of 

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the game. 
At four players is so many trick

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taking games just using basic 
playing cards here in America, 

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it's very much you've got a 
partner, but you can't share any

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any of what's in your hands. 
So that was really comfortable 

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and yet and yet it felt like 
there was so much more on the 

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line than just taking a trick. 
So that and that was fantastic. 

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So. 
Yeah, I'm, I'm quite happy how 

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it turned out to be. 
It it it like you say, it 

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captures the the tension and you
feel a little bit bad when some 

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of your troop cards die. 
And that quite often seems to 

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mean that some people are really
quite strongly considering that 

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when can they play their own 
high cards, which would be then 

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the cards that allow you to win.
But then again, the high cards 

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are also the highest casualty 
value. 

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So if they actually end up being
dead. 

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Yeah, that's that, that's a 
dilemma that you need to 

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consider that when do you want 
to to take a little bit higher 

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like bid or or or so. 
And yeah, that's that is 

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something different. 
So tell me a little bit about 

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the art. 
Did you? 

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Did you design the art? 
Did you use public images? 

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What how did how did the art 
come about? 

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And who is responsible? 
Well, all the card art on on on 

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that game are actual propaganda 
posters from the World War One. 

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Most of those on the French side
are actual French propaganda 

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posters. 
Most of those that are on on the

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German cards are actual German 
propaganda posters. 

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But all of those graphics are 
actually what what the 

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propaganda ministries of of of 
different countries were using 

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to advertise the war for their 
own own people. 

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And especially the German ones. 
If you read German language, 

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some of those from today's 
perspective, they have, let's 

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put it this way, interesting 
messages that that are. 

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Relevant. 
Relevant even today and a little

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bit depressing how much the same
kind of message we are still 

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getting in in today's world. 
It's 210 a year, 110 years and 

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have we learned anything? 
Maybe there is more technology, 

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but that doesn't mean that 
situation would be that much 

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different than compared to what 
it what what it was back then. 

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So that's really interesting 
because I, I couldn't tell if 

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these were actual historical 
images or if the artwork was 

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done. 
So that's all part of the public

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domain. 
So there was like it was free. 

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All you had to do was access the
images and use them. 

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Is that correct? 
That is correct. 

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It's not that easy to find 
those, but like I said, I like 

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history and I have been studying
also. 

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How do you how to find these 
these sort of things? 

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And now I I can safely say that 
there are some quite good 

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libraries that provide that sort
of material. 

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Right. 
So how long have you been 

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working on Verdun like when the 
first idea came till the launch 

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this summer? 
How long has that process been? 

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Well, this has been unusually 
quick thing because I think the 

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the the idea came last September
and the first playable prototype

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was right after Essen Spiel. 
That would be then late October 

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last year. 
And we haven't had kind of like 

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major changes in, in, in the 
game since January. 

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So right now it's been only 
polishing the the rule book, 

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doing some small things like 
making sure that people are all 

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around read the rules in the 
same, same way and that there 

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are no, sorry, there are no 
concepts that are kind of like 

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just assume that people will 
know it anyhow. 

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So that's how we go. 
How many languages will the game

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be released in initially? 
Well, we will release it in 

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English and German and of course
we are always interested in 

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finding publishing partners who 
would be like willing to do 

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other languages. 
On some of our earlier games, we

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have also done some other 
languages. 

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But we have learned our lesson 
that due to go for instance to 

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Italian market, you need to have
some more permanent Italian 

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presence. 
And same goes for Spanish market

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and French market where we have 
all where we have done a couple 

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of products on all of those 3 
languages. 

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But German market we have fairly
permanent presence. 

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I spent something like two 
months every year in Germany and

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we have also some some team 
members who actually live in 

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Germany and English is then the 
obvious choice because I, I do 

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all of my game design anyhow in 
English doing anything Venus is 

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foolish because there are you 
know like less than well about 5

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million people in here and not 
all of them are board gamers. 

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So. 
Right, right. 

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00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,200
That, that's interesting. 
I would have thought you would 

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have been releasing it in French
as well, just given the the 

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French and German sides, but 
that's that's really 

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interesting. 
So how long have you been with 

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Dragandone? 
Well, I founded the company in 

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1999, so quite a while we have 
been doing well. 

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Essentially the company started 
as as doing the things that I 

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find worth of doing. 
So it's kind of like my my own 

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company supporting all the 
things that I find fun and 

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interesting. 
But since 2008 we have been 

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producing board games in more 
and more regular pace. 

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We started with one game a year 
and now it seems that we do 

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about four products every year. 
Not necessarily for games, but 

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for products, maybe like two 
games, one expansion and then 

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00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:28,960
something else like a book or 
ACD or music or something else, 

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some some kind of add on 
material that could be handy. 

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So we try to do wide variety of 
of different things. 

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That's interesting. 
So do you think you're going to 

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you're going to release either 
in ACD or perhaps MP3 or some 

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downloadable version of like a 
soundtrack to go along with for 

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Dunn? 
Maybe we have done that for a 

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couple of our games. 
We have the factor 42. 

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That's that's work replacement 
game set in a in a dwarven 

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society and in our fantasy 
world, all all the dwarves are 

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communists. 
So it's kind of like a 

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socialistic utopian world where 
where you are running a factory.

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And for that we did soundtrack. 
I think it's something like 45 

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minutes of suitable sounds that 
are like as a background track 

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for for for the game. 
We did something similar also a 

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couple of years earlier for one 
of our fantasy games. 

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So it's possible it's likely 
that we will add that in this 

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stretch goals at some some 
higher level. 

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It takes quite a lot of effort 
to to kind of create something 

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that is more than marginally 
useful. 

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So it it it has to be something 
where we are also by ourselves 

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happy that it it communicates 
not only kind of like the the 

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base, base idea of of the game, 
but it should also communicate 

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the mood that we want to to to 
bring in in, in that. 

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And well, that would be nice, 
but not. 

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So you said you you founded 
Dragon Dawn in 1999. 

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So congratulations on 25 years. 
That's quite an achievement. 

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How long have you been in the 
board game hobby personally? 

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Well, I would have to say that 
I, I was very keen on playing 

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board games as a child and I 
found that many of the games 

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back then were lacking. 
They were too much of luck based

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games and I think I started 
making my own first board games 

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at the age of six, 7-8, 
something like that. 

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Of course they were not very 
good at that time, but I think 

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it's a Safeway of saying that 
since then, and that would be 

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then something like early 80s, I
have been team getting with with

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board games, but the first 
published board game is 2008. 

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OK. 
And what was the first modern 

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board game that got you away 
from the the typical roll and 

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roll and moves and luck based 
games? 

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What was that first game for 
you? 

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That's a good question. 
Let me think the old Dune 

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probably that was published a 
long time ago. 

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When was it? 
Let's see, I'm quite sure that 

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this is from something like 80s.
OK, Yeah. 

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And I'm now meaning the the old 
version, obviously, and not the 

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one that just came out. 
But then again, obviously games 

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like Settlers of Katan and Watch
are somewhat understandably in 

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in in that sort of list. 
Right, so what's next for Dragon

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Dawn after we're done? 
Is there anything you can tell 

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us about? 
Yeah, sure. 

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We are doing. 
Oh, and now we've found out it's

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the the original Dune is from 
1979 and I think I played that 

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in something like 84 or 85 and I
found that it was brilliant back

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then and it was so different 
than than the say alternatives 

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like monopolies and things like 
that. 

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So made a big difference. 
Anyhow, we have Mind 77, which 

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is kind of like a successor for 
this factor 42 that I mentioned.

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It's worker placement game that 
has simultaneous action 

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selection and an interesting 
double Rondell system where you 

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need to choose where what your 
worker wants to do. 

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And there is a little bit of 
communic, a little bit of 

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cooperation in the game. 
But it's a, it's a, it's not a 

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cooperative game. 
It's it's a competitive game 

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with a small cooperative element
and that we are planning to have

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in in game found probably 
something like September this 

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year. 
And then the trick taking games 

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that would be like the next 
trick taking game after Verdun 

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is also pretty much ready. 
It needs some visuals. 

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But other than that, I think 
it's it's fairly ready and 

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that's for next January. 
And after that, hopefully we can

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finally run Soulspire, which is 
the biggest product that we have

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ever done. 
It's the next version of our 

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Rondell based dungeon crawler. 
I have been doing that since 

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2014, so 10 years by now and it 
would be nice to get it 

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finalised. 
But it's such such an immense 

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00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,400
amount of work that it has taken
quite a lot of time. 

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00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:18,120
And in in recent game testing 
rounds, people are still finding

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00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:22,880
that there are areas which could
be improved and we don't want to

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00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,560
release it before we are sure 
that it kind of covers all of 

307
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,000
those areas where someone has 
said that OK, this could be 

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00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,560
improved and that could be 
improved. 

309
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:39,320
Now it's close to that, but we 
need to still run one more round

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00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:45,280
to see that that we have kind of
managed to Polish all of those 

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00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,240
details into a level where we 
can be happy and the players can

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00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:51,880
be happy. 
Right. 

313
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,760
So it sounds like you are a busy
man with a lot coming down the 

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00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:01,880
line so. 
Yeah, that's what well, this is 

315
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:07,920
what I do. 
As As for living, there are a 

316
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:13,320
few small things that they maybe
a day or two every every month 

317
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:19,080
that I do as profession, but 
other than that it's just game 

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00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,040
design. 
Well, thank you so much for 

319
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:26,080
joining and letting me 
participate in this journey in a

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00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,400
small part. 
So Verdun is coming to 

321
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:35,200
Kickstarter July 23rd, correct? 
Yes, that is correct. 

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00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,560
And any anything else you want 
to say, let us know where our 

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00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,120
listeners can find you and your 
products and. 

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00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:50,000
Well, DDBDD bgames.com and there
should be like information about

325
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,320
all of our games and upcoming 
campaigns and also access to the

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00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:58,400
store. 
OK, fantastic. 

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00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,280
So be on the lookout. 
That's July 23rd. 

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00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,920
We're done. 
We'll be out on Kickstarter. 

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00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:09,920
It is Dragon Dawn Productions, 
ddpgames.com. 

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00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,320
So again, Ren, thank you so much
for joining. 

331
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,280
I really enjoyed this 
conversation. 

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00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,240
Thanks a lot. 
Thank you. 

333
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,640
Thank you for inviting me. 
Thanks everyone for listening, 

334
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,960
please subscribe and as always, 
we'd love to hear your thoughts 

335
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,720
and ideas, so make sure to leave
those in the comments and don't 

336
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,720
forget you can also chat with us
both on Instagram at Meeple to 

337
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:33,320
Meeple.