Welcome to Maple to Maple, uniting players around the
world, a 30 minute exploration of TJ and Gareth's four-game
experiences from across both sides of the Atlantic.
Each episode they share their thoughts and opinions on the
world of four games, including their favorite themes, games,
hot topics, and much, much more. Hey guys, welcome to Episode 88
Preview and Play Testing, one of our favorite topics today.
So we're going to talk about. So, as always, I remain PJ.
And I am still Gareth Episode 88.
I know. I know, talking, talking, play,
testing something that is dear to your heart.
I love play testing man. You do, and I will get into that
because I I don't play test so much.
I'm really picky. And you are, you play test
anything. Yeah, you're easy.
I got to tell you, that's partially, that's partially
Katie's influence too. So let's be fair, she enjoys a
good play testing. So it's another thing that we do
together. Yeah.
So I think, I think, I mean I've over my ball gaming life.
We have played, we have play tested.
I guess play tested means you are trying a game that's not yet
finished. Right.
But sometimes it's it's a scrap of paper and it's an idea.
Other times, it's nearly the finished article.
I've seen a lot of. Publisher want some feedback?
Yeah. So certainly the UK Games Expo,
there's the, I'm going to call it the Playtest Zone.
It's probably got a better name than that, right?
And you, I think you've said before that Gen.
Con is in particular is cool. The IT is the.
You do a whole day, don't you? Don't you?
No. So the entire all four days of
Gen. Con from like 8:00 AM to
midnight is the first exposure play test call.
And how long would you spend in there versus the rest of?
She do like So what you do is you sign up in advance for two
hour blocks, right? And then you and I were talking
about this before recording. So if this is interesting, I
guess this is where we're going to start, right?
So when you go, so you sign up in advance, which is perfect
because Gen. Con's coming up soon.
So you would sign up for whatever time you want, and you
can sign up for as many as you want, right?
We like to sign up for the 8:00 AM slot.
That way we're in the play test hall, we're occupied.
We're getting to see a game in some form of development.
When we get out at 10:00 AM, the vendor hall opens and then we
get to walk right into the vendor.
Hall instead of waiting. Outside.
Yeah, yeah. No, it's.
Going to use our time productively.
We have scheduled two or three in a day, right?
So we've done that. But what's what's really cool.
So you sign up in advance and then you stand in line and you
draw a number, right? And they break it up into two
categories. One is tabletop board games, the
other one is tabletop role-playing games.
I have never, I have never played tested a role-playing
game. I don't know what that looks
like, but but they do it. And I have to say, kudos to
first Exposure because some of the designers are, they have
specific social aggregate requirements of their play
testers and they're upfront about that.
Meaning what does that, what does that mean, PJ?
Yeah. What does that mean, PJ?
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you, Gareth. That's a good question.
They want only women, or they want only children under the age
of 16, or they only want players who are transgender, or they
only want players who are of some sort of social aggregate.
And is that before you draw that is lottery ticket?
Before you draw, so you know well you you get your number
right away. Right.
Yeah, OK. But.
But then on the table there's a bunch of descriptions of games,
and those descriptions include that, right?
OK, OK. But there's no mention of like
let's say I have I don't like space games, and then I end up
playing a space game with my unconscious bias of not liking
space games be useful to a designer or would.
Yes, it would. It would.
Yes, absolutely, totally would. Even though I'm having a rubbish
time because I hate space games, I need to go with a different
mindset then I think is what you're saying.
Yes, if I design A space game, a space theme game, and you don't
like space themes, but you might love tile placement or you might
like deck building or whatever, you still have something to
contribute to me to help me in my design process, right?
Because you, I think. That's the difference is, is
that if I, if I'm going to go and play games, I go and find
games like in the vendor hall or I'm going to go into, you know,
open gaming. If I'm going, if I'm going to do
play testing, I think what you're saying is I have to have
a different mindset, which is I'm going to help and test
games, which may or may not be games I'd normally choose, but
it's more feeding back to designer on experience.
Yeah. So the the descriptions are
really, they're really vague, but they're just descriptive
enough that you will know. A space.
Yeah, because what will happen is it won't have the title of
the game because the game may not have a title yet.
Right. Yeah, OK.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That happens too, but you might
have a description that says a two to four player space themed
tile placement deck building. So I haven't got experience that
I can go and pick. Absolutely.
As long as it's capacity for somewhere else.
As long as it's capacity, what happens is later on because they
start with number one and go through.
If you have #86 by the time your number is drawn, the game you're
thinking about. Yeah, I've got I've got the
space game. Yeah.
So, so Katie and I get in and we look at the descriptor
description tickets in on the table and we're like, well, that
looks really cool. So we try to think of three that
look interesting in case our first choice.
Yeah. Gets capacity, we at least will
have one and we've played, we've played tested some very
interesting games and they're all in very different status of
design. We've played games that so we
played Time Lancers I. Think you've mentioned that game
before, Yeah, but last year before I remember you've
mentioned. So we played, tested it last
year, but Katie played, tested it the year before.
So she played, she played, tested it last year or the year
before. In 2021, No 22/20/22, she
played, tested it, it went to Kickstarter.
It failed to fulfill, it didn't fully pledge.
So then they went back to the drawing board.
So in 23 last year, they were back at the first exposure.
We both play tested it, it went back to Kickstarter, it
fulfilled, it broke stretch goals, it did really well.
And I think it's scheduled to deliver in fourth quarter of
this year. I think.
So that's a good example of a game that's already like, I
mean, it's because it was a kick when I, when I experienced it,
it had been the Kickstarter didn't launch.
So it was more finished than not finished, absolutely.
And how, how do the games, how developed are the games that
generally that you're play testing more than a sheet, more
than a sheet of paper? Yes.
Yeah. So they're generally towards the
back end of their. I would.
Say. The game that I played, that was
the earliest, yeah, in design, the closest to a sheet of paper.
I wish I could remember the name of it.
I just remember the experience. It was because it was so early
in development, I think. The title he had like a
placeholder for the title, but it was.
Like the board game it was. Yeah, it was an area control
worker placement kind of a it was kind of a little, there was
a little bit of fighting strategy involved in it, but all
the components that we used. So we had like red wooden
meeples from another game and we had like, yeah, yeah, we had
little tanks from a different game and you know, so that it
was very mix and match component wise.
Eventually they would finalize it.
The top the tiles were hexes and they were like cardboard and
they were like, you know, dry, not dry erase marker, but
permanent markers to indicate the different terrain.
So that was the closest to really early production.
And how how people to feedback because I think when I've done
play testing before, I've given ideas and people just don't they
just dismissed them as well like this.
This is how the game plays and weren't that receptive to any
not I mean not critical as in rude feedback, but just
observations about the design because it because it was their
baby. Yeah, yeah.
They didn't seem receptive to any changes that similar in
Jenkin or so G feedback with the scoring system is a form you
fill in. Was it just dialogue over the
over? The it's.
Over the table it's. Dialogue and the designers have
their own little forms that they'll ask us to fill up.
It's not official. So the first exposure play test
all has its own reputation. And so I don't think they would
let a designer. Well, that's not true.
It's happened once or twice. Some they've slipped through the
tracks. What you just described doesn't
happen very often because first exposure has a reputation to
maintain. However, that doesn't mean I
haven't met some of the people that, you know, some designers
you're talking about. I mean, we're all humans and I
get that and egos getting away and yeah, yeah, we get attached
to our concepts and that's fine. But if you're a game designer,
you have to like be open to people not trashing your game,
but trying to what's the phrase trying to break your game?
Yeah, yeah. And you have to be open to that.
What's your favorite play testing experience?
Have you, have you a favorite moment or anything you've tested
and then seen come through to being final and say I was part
of that? So that's two questions or I
have. Too different.
I have two different answers to that, so the first one is my
favorite experience, favorite game that has not come to
fruition. It's by Tunnel Monster, Tunnel
Monster Studios, who this week Adam reached out to me and asked
me if I was going to be a Gen. Con this year because he's got a
new game that he's play testing. So hopefully we're going to get
together with him on Sunday. Nights.
Yeah. No playtester.
Listen, this is, this is humbling.
Like people know who I am. That's kind of yeah.
So it's so weird, right? It's just, I'm not, I don't
know. Anyway, OK, so Adam reached out
to me and I'm like, yeah, dude, I'm going to be here.
He's like, all right, cool. He's got a new game.
And but anyway, last year we played tested his game called
Chef's Table. Yeah, I remember you mentioned
this. Yeah, it's like a cooperative.
You roll dice and then you place them.
You're in the back of the house in the kitchen trying to fulfill
orders. It was just really cool.
It was a really cool game. But I haven't seen, I haven't
heard anything from Adam. I haven't heard any, have not
seen any momentum on that. I feel like that game was pretty
close. It was really close, right?
And I'm going to talk to Adam about it.
Like what? Happened to see what's happened
because some games just get shelved and they either
something else appears because it's like something else that's
been released and somebody else got their first, or Yep, they
get a bit of a blocker or you can't find somebody to publish
if you're not going to get in the Kickstarter route.
You know, it's interesting you brought that up.
Our friend Tata Wu had a similar situation with his game in the
Stars, right? That always intrigued me as well
because yeah, I mean, you're talking about it.
And I mean, it sounds like it really is a was it A roll?
Roll and write. If it was you were doing it.
Was it? Was a roll in it?
Yeah, it was a roll and write where you were drawing
constellations or. Something.
Yeah, Yeah. I don't remember the whole
story, but he said he had to shelve that game.
Maybe he'll so it's it's in development.
So yeah, so that's that happens, right?
So games are in different forms of development and they come out
and yeah, I. Think one of my one of the games
I've I guess I worked on worked on that I was most involved with
was was Banson West. So through lockdown I.
Remember. You talking about?
Yeah, but we, but that was all done on Table Topia and other
people use is it TTS Tabletop Simulator, But all of that was
done on Tabletopia and it was like playing the finished game.
It said every couple of weeks when we went back to play tests
or just play the game and there was so much more contact.
Ike, who's the designer, just constantly tunes.
Like we give so much feedback and it's it's absorbent and it's
take it away, come back and it's like, like all this has changed
and you're like, OK, like maybe less is more.
Sometimes. So it was always a good
experience and we, I remember, I guess we did rule book reading
and we did quite a lot of edits on the rule book to try and help
because it was, it's an open, it's a sandbox kind of game.
So the fact that you could do anything made for interest in
play tests because somebody could go off and just do do
their own stuff. But it generally ended up that
we were running around the Wild West shooting each other with a
shotgun, making incredible stories.
But that's probably 1 the game I've probably play tested and
seen come through the most, which I think, I mean other
games we've been involved with. There's a game called Evolution,
which is, which actually there's a, there's a newer version
called Nature coming out, which you'll hear more more about in a
few in about a month's time. But they had an expansion that
we played tested quite a bit thinking about it now, which was
about climate change. It was the climate part of the
game. So that one we played tested and
that was that was kind of, you printed it out yourself.
Yeah, obviously you, you did your own thing.
So I think listening to you, I think it's probably my mindset
has to change maybe when I'm at the Games Expo.
Because. Time is so tight I don't.
I don't. Necessarily invest my time there
and actually I should do more think I could do more fun I.
Think when you come to the US and eventually make it to Gen.
Con, we should do that together. Yeah, that'd be interesting.
We should sign up for a play test together and play test in
the same game and see. As a whole, as a whole, episode
and 1/2. Absolutely.
I want to answer the second part of your question.
You would then. Well, so you asked about.
I forgot we'd have to check the tape.
So a game that I. Oh yes.
And was part of that. And that would be, I mean, hands
down, our friend Heather Dixon and Apistocracy.
OK. Yeah, yeah.
So I play tested that by myself a Gen.
Con in the first exposure play test hall back in 2021 or no
20/20/22 I was doing that while Katie was doing time lansers
then at Geek way 22. No, no, these years just.
Blurry. I know Katie and I get to play
Apistocracy with Heather at Geek Way in Saint Louis.
And then Heather brought apostocracy to Cajun Khan in
England back in April. So several people played at 24
this year. And then it she just killed it.
She. Killed it.
Oh yeah, did she? I think she broke 2000 backers
and. I think so.
She did. Yeah, I mean, just it's a really
good story because I mean, both the art is lovely.
That is, I didn't get to play it when we were together, but I
watched a few people play sessions and the components and
you can see how it all comes together over the couple of
years. How different was was it to when
you played it most recently to when you first saw it in SASA
22? Huge.
In terms of design, artwork,
both. Yes, the the core of the game
didn't change, but she clearly listened to feedback.
Yeah, and the game got tighter and better, you know, so that's
exciting. The game went really well.
Are you? Are you?
Are you play testing Jane Cole? You haven't got much time this
show, have you? Are you there?
For a day? No, no, we're not.
We haven't signed up for anything.
The other thing too is you could just, you don't have to sign up.
You can show up. You can just rock up, yeah.
But when you do that, you, you, you get last choice in
whatever's leftover for capacity, right?
Here's the interesting thing about that 8:00 AM slot on
Sunday morning. Everybody's asleep from Saturday
night, so. This seemed like a very good use
of time. Like, like you say on opening
day, rocking up, doing 2 hours before you've kind of got your
fix of ball gaming ahead of everyone else.
Yeah, IQ when you could help somebody, right develop their
game. The cool thing is if you end up
with free time, if you're, if you're a Gen.
Con, and this is to anyone, if you're a Gen.
Con and you've got yourself to a 2 hour block where you have
nothing to do, go check out First Exposure Playtest Hall.
Because there's sometimes where they're standing out in the
concourse trying to get people to come in because they need.
They have more designers. That happens sometimes too.
I don't think the other way around, where they have more
players than designers. I don't know that that happens,
but maybe it does. I don't think that it does.
I got two prototypes sitting right here.
I thought that's my next question about say what's your,
are you doing any testing or prototyping at the moment?
What have you got? What have you got on the On the
Cajun Gamer testing table? It's the meatball to meatball
testing table. Oh.
The meatball to meatball. Testing team Team what I needed.
I can't even say it. I need to get a new felt mat for
my gaming table and make it like white with like the purple and
the blue meeple with the number 2 on it right in the centre few.
Times. Yeah, we should do that.
That'd be cool. So if you remember, I can't say
much about it right now because I haven't played it yet, but I
have a prototype of Raise the Realm Estate.
That game looked really cool because I think you mentioned it
on the on your. It was the origins.
It was the. Origins.
Yeah, Yeah, that's right. It was a game that we just kind
of stumbled upon. I mean, it's got a
three-dimensional castle that you have to.
Build medieval. Medieval theme I seem to
remember. Yeah.
I think I I did a bit of a ball game geek look up and went this
is my kind of game. It's by Grodd games.
The only thing I can do is I can read to you the little intro
that came with the game. Welcome to a state, Raise the
realm. A Great War has ended with a
truce. Dawn drawn by sword and steel.
I'm a God. I love this.
Whether the victors of glory or the nobles caught in defeat, the
great houses that remain must rebuild.
Great uncertainty remains as to what the passive time will
bring. Prosperity or more conflict.
In the end, that result will be up to the decisions of each
house and the decisions of their ruler, and you take on the role
of one of those houses. How cool is that?
And I think I found a new
feature which is like, you know, those film trailers when there's
a guy goes and then the ma'am we have PJ reading from a rule book
intro and people to guess the game that you're talking about.
You know, that little that little section.
Yeah, I like that. It's all that little heading out
of board game geek. The first bit, that little
saying and then people, it's got to be in that Husky PJ voice.
Oh, you know, there was a time at the dawn of time kind of
thing. It was a night.
Oh, I've not my books over. Don't do that.
I banged on the table with my dawn of time.
I just sound really good. And what what the what the
mechanics have you do? You know, much so.
I haven't dived into it too. Much you need to get this, you
need to get this game on the table and play tested or played.
There's you know what, I'm excited because I get to play
purple and there's blue, so. Purple and blue.
We got purple and blue, so that's cool.
You'll be glad. Is it 4?
Four, yeah. Two to four.
Two to four players, two to four, I have a 2.
Players good. I'm intrigued yeah.
You have a two player game. What's that game?
And can you read through a rule book again?
Because I think I think our list has enjoyed your.
Has that Karen? Has that got a little intro
section it? It a little bit.
Please. Yeah, just.
Do that with them. It's not as it's not as cool.
I don't think it's a thematic intro, but you're.
Going to make it cool. Oh yeah, I'm totally going to
make it cool. So first of all, this is echoes
of Emperors. Now this is on Kickstarter.
Right now. At the right now this is by
echoes of. Emperors.
Echoes of emperors.
By Vulcaban Studio I. Love, love it.
Yeah. So I'm going to give you some
stats after I read this real quick.
Let's see what does it say in the opening Echoes of Emperors,
a strategic card game focused on one versus 1 gameplay.
Take on the role of a medieval ruler and learn about the
stories of our ancestors by building your empire and
defeating your enemies. Echoes of Emperors is a deck
building board game with chess like mechanics where you use the
strengths of your civilizations to your own advantage.
Does it? I mean a well read, B looks
cool. Yeah, it seems interesting.
So it's a two player game. It's it's built, built, built.
Is that the right word? I got built, built.
It's built in research by historians and anthropologists,
so it's informed by history. There's four starting factions,
the Scots, the Norsemen, the Byzantines and the Mongol
Empire. It is my understanding that
they've broken a few stretch goals and have released 2, two
or four more factions. I believe so.
Here's a few stats because I love, I know Gareth loves him.
Some stats. I love stats.
Currently, as of this morning, 747 backers, there's ten days to
go. That's going to be 8 days to go.
Is the time that you're listening to this because we
always record a few days in advance and it is a faction
control game over a battle map. I can tell you, but judging by
the prototype that the battle map changes, there are these two
by 4 grids and they change. So it's never the same and
they're not double sided, so you know, but there's a lot of them.
And so you build the battle map in front of you.
Again, I don't know much more about it, but I want to thank
Neil from Volkabon Studios for sending me a prototype to give a
try. He was really excited.
So I reached out to him a week before the project launched and
I was like, we're really interested in getting you on the
show. We want to talk about it and
everything. Of course, it's it's active now.
We haven't been, the timing hasn't worked.
But when I told him that both he both my wife and I have, you
know, we've studied history and yeah, yeah.
He was like, I'm going to send you a copy.
I want you guys to play and just tell me what you think.
So we'll try to get him on. By the time that happens, the
game will probably be fulfilled so. 10 days to go from today. 10
days to go from today, eight from the.
Time you're listening. Oh, yeah, eight from the time
you listened to this. Good point.
I'm intrigued. Yeah, so I got two prototypes
sitting on my table ready to rock.
I'm excited about them both for different reasons.
See, that's the other thing too, about play time.
Both. Both are, I mean also intrigued.
So you need to you need to feedback your play testing
learnings. You know, you've got a vacation
coming up. Why don't you let the family go
to Greece and you come hang out with me for a moment?
Hang out here. Yeah, I quite like Greece.
I could go and do some ancient Greek games with me.
Yeah, thematically. But you're not, because you're
going to be too busy looking at all the cool stuff.
Sirens. Was it Sirens?
Was that Greek? What was that, Roman?
Sirens. Sirens is Greek.
Oh, so that'll get in the bag then.
That'd be perfect that. Would be perfect.
I've, I've just resurrected one of our features and I was asking
AI what are the top 3 tips for people who want to play test as
in designers. OK.
And then I asked it, what were the top three tips for somebody
who is a play tester? Would you like to know what
those are? Yeah, let's see what AI has to
say. See, so let's get let's start
with the. So if I'm a play tester, these
are three things that the the AI thinks I should do.
It should be observant and detailed.
Pay close attention to every aspect of the game, from rules
to mechanics. The more detailed your
observations, the more useful your feedback.
That's number one. Number two, be honest and
constructive, even if it means pointing out flaws or aspects of
the game you didn't enjoy. Constructive criticism is
essential for improvement. And then #3 considered.
Consider different perspectives. Trophy yourself in the shoes of
different types of players. I think this is a bit that I'd
be missing, including those with varying levels of experience.
Think about how the game would appeal to the broad audience.
Consider different play styles. They're good tips.
And if you are a if you're wanting to test the game.
So for those designers out there, number one, gather a set
of diverse play testers. You don't want just beginners,
you want beginners, experts. And in between have clear
objectives and feedback collection which you've covered
and iterative testing and refinement.
Conduct multi rounds of testing between sessions and analyze and
play tests and refine and Polish the game.
I'm trying to paraphrase a massive sentence, right?
Yes. Yeah.
So there we go. There's our top tips by AI.
Yeah. So I was listening to you and I
found my notes from my first play test.
So here's something interesting. Apostocracy.
That was August 4th, 2022. OK.
And I have my notes from my first good player of that.
I played a game called Holy Roller.
I completely forgot about this. This was interesting because
it's set in Catholic, Roman Catholic mythology where you
are, I think you play the role of different Saints trying to
hold back Satan from breaking the seals, kind of like in the
Book of Revelation or something. That's what I kind of remember
vaguely, but it was a cooperative game.
And then I played a game called War of the Woods.
Which war? War of the Woods.
I thought it was going to be released because like the prod,
the prototype quality, the games, the rules, it looked like
it was close to, you know? I didn't can't find that one.
No, it's, it's been shelled, I guess.
Oh. And holy rutles, I've found you
can do a print and play if you really want to try.
Again, you can. You can.
How about outrun the bear, our friend?
Oh. Outrun the bear.
And remember. There's one.
Katie and I, our name is in the rule book on the front page as a
play tester. How cool is that?
That's. One you've seen going through to
the end. Yep, time Lancers emissary.
I love the fact you have a little rule book, a little a
like even a little book of your PJ's memoirs of of ball game
testing and. I always write them down.
I write my notes down, but then they give me a form to fill out.
So I'm like Oh well, I just copied them.
So on August 4th, 2023, I played this game called Emissary.
I said automobiles with a question mark.
There was movement and exploration.
Too much narrative, not enough mechanical thought.
Man I mean the top. The top AI tips did not say
bring a notebook and write notes as you go.
No, do not. You are a pro.
You got little black pencil as well.
I mean, I have a pencil. I'm an archivist.
I have to have a pencil. This is this this This is why
the two things blend so well together.
They they really do. Yeah, you're.
Diligent and you're note taking and wow.
So who doesn't love a play test and a preview?
I want to. I really wish you could come to
Gen. Con because I would love to play
test with you. That would be really good.
Or you need to come to the UK Games Expo and then.
Hey, see the? Play test zones then.
Speaking of play testing, you have a game on your shelf.
Do I? Yeah, it's called Feta Ventera.
It's a prototype. We need, we need to play that
game. You need to play.
I've already. Played it.
It's I've actually moved it recently to top of the pole
because it's not been played. Because you need to play it.
I've already played it a couple times.
Because we're going to get Zach from Corrosive Games on the show
he's about to launch on Kickstarter.
So when it is, we need to get that done, right.
That's on my mission. Before.
Before we go on break, Yes. Before we go on summer break,
yeah. So think about play testing.
It's a lot of fun. Help make games better, help
designers succeed their visions. Yeah.
It's just cool. It's just cool, yeah.
Right. I mean, I'll be interested here.
Anyone else who's got play testing comments, please do
write them in the comments on whichever podcasts you're
listening to. Or just drop us Adm on
Instagram. Absolutely, yeah.
And if you want any play testing done, obviously me and PJPJ in
particular is a pro I don't know about or if if you if you want a
ball game intro to your Kickstarter campaign read in a
Husky voice. P JS up for hire.
I am ready to read an introduction to your game today.
We definitely, we definitely should choose a little on Ball
Game Geek when it just got like the name of the game with a very
small strap line. That should be a little game we
play. You need to take one of the
things I read the samples, audio samples and post on Instagram.
Yeah, let's go to live. I said chop that out.
I like when podcasts do that and I wish we could.
We did. More we can we can do that one.
That's that's a much better idea, right.
So thank you everyone for this thing.
Thanks PJ for sharing and talking about play testing.
It's it's been educational, which like it should be.
I love it. I love.
It OK. Thanks everyone for listening.
We'll speak to you soon. Thanks everyone for listening,
please subscribe and as always, we'd love to hear your thoughts
and ideas, so make sure to leave those in the comments and don't
forget you can also chat with us both on Instagram at Meeple the
Meeple.