1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,400 Hey guys, welcome to episode 101. 2 00:00:04,560 --> 00:00:07,400 That's right, it's me. You could see me. 3 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,640 We are now recording. Thank you for liking and 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:12,720 subscribing. Hey, now I get to say it for the 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,480 first time. Like and subscribe our YouTube 6 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:19,240 channel as we've moved into the next 100 episodes. 7 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:21,320 We appreciate, appreciate all of you. 8 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,720 And as a thank you, I've got a very special guest on today. 9 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,720 I've got Carla Kopp, the founder of Weird Draft Games, and we're 10 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,680 going to talk about a game that she's got coming to Kickstarter 11 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,160 soon, Reef and Ruins. It's a game that is kind of been 12 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:38,280 play testing. She sent me a prototype and 13 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,360 we've been talking about it. So, Carla, how are you? 14 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,440 Hey, I am super tired, but that's fine. 15 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:47,280 I'm getting ready for a Kickstarter. 16 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,800 I'm moving, I'm dealing with life in general. 17 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,680 But you know, that's me. Aren't we all? 18 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:57,880 Yes, absolutely. Moving and a Kickstarter, that 19 00:00:57,880 --> 00:00:59,920 is crazy. And it's crazy. 20 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:01,960 That's a lot. That's a whole lot. 21 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,239 If I've learned anything from our previous guests is that 22 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,720 launching a Kickstarter, whether it's your first or your 100th, 23 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:15,880 it's very daunting. Yeah, I've mostly gotten it down 24 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:21,280 at this point, like I think this is 15 or 16 or something in 25 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,120 there, but everything is always changing. 26 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,600 Like this industry is weird where you know, like, you think 27 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,760 you got it down, but like a new month comes out and you're like, 28 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,000 oh, there's pirates. So now there's strikes 29 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,120 everywhere. Now I have no idea With this new 30 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,240 thing. It's never boring, at least, 31 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,120 right? I I would really like it if at 32 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,080 one point in time there's like a week that goes by where I'm 33 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,760 like, yeah, I just got this. That would be great. 34 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,280 That would be awesome, right? It's interesting you bring that 35 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,640 up because we just were experiencing just a week or so 36 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,280 ago, there was a dock strike here in the United States. 37 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,480 That was resolved quickly, thankfully. 38 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,600 So hopefully it won't impact the shipping of your game in the 39 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:04,880 future and all the ones that are coming out. 40 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,600 So, so let's begin here. I just, I just learned this 41 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,240 today. I was reading this about you and 42 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,600 I did not realize you're the founder of Weird Giraffe Games. 43 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,400 I mean, I do all the things here I am weird draft games. 44 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:22,160 That is fantastic weird draft games, which is home to one of 45 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,440 my favorite games. That's Big Easy busking as a as 46 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,200 a native of Louisiana, originally from Baton Rouge, so 47 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,640 I can't claim New Orleans, but I absolutely love that game. 48 00:02:30,640 --> 00:02:33,240 So thank you to you and your team. 49 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,320 Well, thank you. Yeah, like, Biggie Zbusking is 50 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,480 one of my favorites. It's actually like one of our 51 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,120 least popular titles, mainly because it dropped in retail in 52 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,360 April 2020. Yeah, like the worst time for a 53 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:47,840 game to come out. Worst. 54 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:50,480 Worst. Yep. 55 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:56,840 So tell us a little bit about how you started weird draft 56 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:58,520 games and the mission of the company. 57 00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:01,560 So I started weird draft games because I was I go to 58 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,080 conventions. I was at a convention called 59 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,720 Dragon Con in Atlanta. Atlanta, yeah. 60 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,040 Yeah. And I would just go on like 61 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,440 panel to panel and there was this one panel about how to 62 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,720 design A game. And I went in there and there 63 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,600 was like this little 9 year old kid that just kept asking 64 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:20,920 questions. And I just got like really 65 00:03:20,920 --> 00:03:23,720 inspired because I was like, you know, what if a nine year old 66 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,240 child can do this, maybe I can't too. 67 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,560 And then we had a four hour trip home where everyone was stuck in 68 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,400 a car with me and I forced them to design A game. 69 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,480 It ended up being the first game that I kick started called super 70 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,160 Hack over right. And from there, I was just 71 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,200 pretty much addicted to both game design and the community. 72 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:49,080 Like, I really enjoyed, like how open the community was. 73 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,360 Like I was able to join it and make a bunch of really cool 74 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,440 friends. It was like back in the day when 75 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,840 Twitter was like actually really amazing. 76 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,760 And you could just, like, find all these people, just talk game 77 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,160 design and, you know, then go to conventions and be with, you 78 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,360 know, your 100 or 200 best friends. 79 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,040 You have an interesting, just reading your website is an 80 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,040 interesting mission statement. You talk a lot about diversity. 81 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:17,640 You even have a section, we have photographs of people that may 82 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,920 be no longer or with weird giraffe but have been integral 83 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,320 in the journey. Talk a little bit about that. 84 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,400 I think that's something that makes your company unique. 85 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,920 Well. There's a lot of things I've 86 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,680 learned in this industry, like by going to conventions and like 87 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,320 being at the booth is that like a lot of people don't know that 88 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,840 there's like more people behind the games than there actually 89 00:04:38,840 --> 00:04:39,680 are. Sure. 90 00:04:40,760 --> 00:05:05,200 And I think being able to see that is really important, 91 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,600 especially for diverse people. But when I first started going 92 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,520 to conventions as a board game designer, I remember going into 93 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:17,520 my first unpub room and I walked in and I was nervous and I was 94 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,400 the only lady there. And I ended up just walking back 95 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,440 out and hiding in the bathroom for like 5 minutes to give 96 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,920 myself like a pep talk before like I went back in because it 97 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,560 was just very intimidating. Sure. 98 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,760 And I really don't want other people to have that same 99 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,600 experience. And one way we can make it so 100 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,600 that other people don't have that experience is just to like 101 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,840 put diverse people on covers, put them like behind the scenes 102 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:45,480 of it. Like I work with a lot of 103 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:50,160 diverse designers and editors, illustrators, graphic designers. 104 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,680 I try to like go through all the people, like play testers too, 105 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,080 like making sure like they see the game, experience it or like 106 00:05:58,080 --> 00:05:59,680 even design it. And so it comes from that 107 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,320 perspective perspective because like getting the different 108 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:06,520 perspectives gets more people like that either interest in 109 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,760 games or to know like they belong to. 110 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:14,720 Awesome, so let's dive in. So just for everyone, reef and 111 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,600 ruins right here. It doesn't get more diverse than 112 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,880 otters and hydras, so. So give us an overview of reef 113 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,640 and ruins for us, please. So it's in my wicked wise 114 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,560 universe, wicked and wise, it's about Dragons and mice playing a 115 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,520 card game, a trick taking game, actually. 116 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,600 And so there's also hydras out in the wild, as you all know. 117 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,120 And hydras are in the water. So they can't really play card 118 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,800 games as well, but they can play dice games. 119 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,320 So that's part of where the story comes from. 120 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,280 And for any of you that like are really good at Latin, you'd know 121 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:50,440 that the name for Otter is Anhydra Anhydra because like 122 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,000 historically they've been friends throughout the years, 123 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,600 correct? So otters and hydras are coming 124 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,880 together to play this little rolling right game. 125 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,320 I think the game is a little bit different because there's three 126 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,400 different sheets that interact. So it's kind of like twilight 127 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,240 inscription with the four sheets, except it's way more 128 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,840 accessible. I do like that inscription but 129 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,400 like it could be a lot the 1st or like. 130 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,880 Oh yeah. Times, you know, whatever, but 131 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,200 here I tried to go for like something that was like a lot 132 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,440 more accessible, like OK, you can like bring your spouse in or 133 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,080 like your friends that don't play games as much, but you can 134 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,920 still play with it's like regular gamers too, because it's 135 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,240 like still like crunchy and has all the combos and such. 136 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,480 So it's, it's interesting, my wife and I played it a couple 137 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,440 times. I think the, the first time we 138 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,720 played it, it was a bit of a struggle because there's so many 139 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,240 options, right? You, you roll the three dice 140 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,120 which represent the three heads of the hydro, which I love, by 141 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,360 the way. So you could do this or you 142 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:48,480 could do this or you could do this. 143 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,360 There's so many options. And we were like really 144 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,800 confused. Then we sat down with the rules 145 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:54,880 a little bit more and was like, OK, wait a minute. 146 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,000 And then unfortunately, I, and I know you said it in the in the 147 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,320 rule book that you had, that you put the lore in the back of the 148 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,000 book because not everyone will earns well through lore. 149 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,080 We do. So it started to make sense. 150 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,640 Get that ingrained. Like I'm working on the rule 151 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:15,520 book because like, well, in the past, I always go like lore 152 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,840 heavy and then people are like, what are things? 153 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,680 And so like, I stripped out all the lore and then like, I want 154 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:26,000 to like put it back in, but like, in a like regular way and 155 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,800 not a like my brain way because my brain's all themes. 156 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,320 Right, okay, I get that. Nope. 157 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,200 You've got a balance theme into mechanics. 158 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,159 Absolutely. But like you said, so there's 159 00:08:36,159 --> 00:08:38,919 three sheets. Walk us through the three sheets 160 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,520 and how they work together. The first sheet are the ship 161 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,040 ruins, and each of the ship ruins, there's six of them. 162 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:46,880 They're represented by the six different sites. 163 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,280 I'm actually trying to get them. They're not in order in my box 164 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,200 because why would they? But anyway, so yeah, we have 165 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,040 like the ship ruins sheet and there's like 123. 166 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,920 So each of the ship ruins needs to be unlocked by one of the 167 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:03,800 dice. And then they each have a little 168 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,160 puzzle. Like the first one needs to have 169 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,480 things that are the same, the second one needs to have things 170 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,160 that are different, etc. So there's 6 little puzzles that 171 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,400 you do to play into these. You have to use one of the dice. 172 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:20,240 So if you have like a 123, you could go into the one room and 173 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,720 put the two and the three dice. You can't put them together 174 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,880 because they're not the same. So you could pick a 2 here and a 175 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:27,600 three there. So that's how the ship ruins 176 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,080 work. They get, if you do the things 177 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,280 that you're supposed to, you can get coins and based on how well 178 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,480 you like finish them up, you'll get more coins. 179 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:40,080 And then you write your coins here and then the next sheet are 180 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,320 these enchantments. And if you put these beside each 181 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,920 other in the right way, because I'm on a camera and it's 182 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:46,680 backwards for. Me. 183 00:09:46,680 --> 00:09:49,880 That's right. So each of the enchantments 184 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,480 lines up with a ruin and the enchantments are super easy. 185 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:56,280 They go from 7:00 to 12:00. So you have to add numbers 186 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,760 together, but you add them together and you get a little 187 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,040 bonus because otters are magical, as are hydras. 188 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,040 They. Are they are magical I mean. 189 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:05,360 Haven't you ever seen them juggle? 190 00:10:05,560 --> 00:10:08,600 Absolutely. I want to say before you go 191 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,360 forward, it's really important to listeners and your backers, 192 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,640 future backers of the game, it's important to put these sheets in 193 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,560 the right order because we didn't. 194 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:21,960 So that was part of the problem. The first time we were playing 195 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,440 is like, wait a minute, what? There's dotted lines that 196 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,960 indicate how they connect. So that's really important to 197 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,200 note. So put them in the right order. 198 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,840 Sure, absolutely. So the enchantments, the 199 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,720 enchantments are multipliers, right? 200 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,080 Yeah, so some of them are multipliers where you can 201 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,160 multiply the ship ruined score by up to five, which is a lot. 202 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:46,960 You don't automatically get up to five. 203 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,840 You have to like work your way and spend some time and along 204 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,880 the way you can get things like shells and pearls and like extra 205 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,600 dice. The shells are modifiers. 206 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,160 You always get 2 shells at a time because they're mollusks. 207 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,640 And then you can use them one at a time because you are an 208 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,760 intelligent hydra and you could choose to only use half. 209 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,320 I have like all these stories. First off, my one of my graphic 210 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,320 designers made these shells because before I had them as 211 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,160 fish and I was like, I don't have two hands, one for each 212 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,400 fish. And she's like, don't do that. 213 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,560 They could be, Molluscan said. It's more, you know, it just 214 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:24,800 makes sense and I'm like, thank you ma'am for telling me about 215 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,640 how my game works better. But now they're shells makes 216 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,480 more sense. It does, actually. 217 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,280 It makes a lot of sense. I work with intelligent people 218 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:36,880 that are good. And it's interesting because the 219 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,040 rules say that when you do an enchantment, you automatically 220 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:46,360 get 2 shells that you can use and the shells you use for ±1 on 221 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,160 a die roll, right? So we were playing this like, 222 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,560 man, that is overpowering. And trust me, it's not, It's 223 00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:56,440 not. You're going to have. 224 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,080 You'll be fine. Well, one thing in my games is 225 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:01,600 like, I want people to feel cool. 226 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,360 Like I want you to have those cool moves. 227 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,080 I don't want you to just to have 1A turn. 228 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,000 Or. Not one a turn because that 229 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,680 would be everything 1A game. I want you to feel like you're 230 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:16,000 empowered to do the things you want to do and maybe the dice 231 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,440 don't roll in your favor, but like you gather a bunch of 232 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,840 shells and then you do the things anyway. 233 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:26,760 Maybe use all up but like you won't be like pushed into like 234 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,320 getting nothing. There's always going to be 235 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:34,360 something to do. And there is, there is, there's 236 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,480 so much going on. And it, I think that was the 237 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,640 challenge. It's, it's realizing, OK, so you 238 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,800 roll 3 dice, you've got these three numbers, but some of them 239 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,440 have to be used in combination, IE the enchantments, even in the 240 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,440 ruins, because you have to use one to unlock a ruin like you 241 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,200 said. And then you can put that number 242 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:59,240 in that same ruin, following the rules within the ruins. 243 00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:02,280 I'm looking down because I have all three sheets in front of me 244 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,760 so I can reference them. And it was like, OK, it starts 245 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,360 to click. It's I think the, I think the 246 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,560 word everyone's using is combo. Tastic. 247 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,280 There's combo. Tastic, Yeah. 248 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,720 Yep, there's a lot going on. So then I guess we should talk 249 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,240 about the third sheet. Yes. 250 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,280 So there's reefs. Yeah. 251 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,720 Reef and ruins the reef there's different ones like this is one 252 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:31,080 set that is a more polyaminal 1 and there's also this one which 253 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,960 is like more of a spatial puzzle kind of thing. 254 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,720 With this one, you are just, you start in the center and you can 255 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,600 go outward to whatever numbers and then you can go next to 256 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:43,480 anything that you've already done. 257 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,840 So once you take 1, you can go next to the free space that 258 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,680 you've already gotten or the one that you did before. 259 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,520 And what you're trying to do in this one is to make columns and 260 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,720 rows that are filled in and also get these little special green 261 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,480 ones because they give you pearls and pearls are magical 262 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,760 also. And they give you little bonuses 263 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:05,640 down here. And they can just be straight 264 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,600 points. They could be like numbers that 265 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,040 you could put back into the reef or into the ruins, and they 266 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,760 could be enchantments, things like that. 267 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,320 So this is one way where the combos come in, because you 268 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:22,480 could go here, fill in a row, get an enchantment, go into the 269 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,680 enchantment, get another Pearl, come back here and go back and 270 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,800 forth. Yes, that happened to me once. 271 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,560 And I'm like OK, And then I'm like oh wait, but I still have 272 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,880 another Pearl, but wait, I have more. 273 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,000 It is important to note that in the reef, when you roll, 274 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,560 whatever number you roll that you're going to use has to be 275 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,240 orthogonally adjacent to a number, either the free space or 276 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,800 a number that you previously shaded in in that reef. 277 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,680 Isn't that correct? Yes. 278 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,840 Yes, no diagonals in corals and reefs. 279 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,000 I mean, if you've been in coral reefs like you will get, you 280 00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:59,720 know you will get hurt if you do not go. 281 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,800 That's true. So thematically, all right, so 282 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,280 you've got you've got the Otter that's leading you along and 283 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,280 there's this adorable little Otter that you have on the on 284 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,680 the kind of the round marker. And then the hydras are the 285 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:16,520 three heads are represented by the three dice. 286 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,640 The ruins make a lot of sense and the fact that they're 287 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,000 enchanting them. So how does the reef fit into 288 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:28,120 the theme here? So you can envision the reef is 289 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,600 like a coral reef where like if you go the wrong way, like 290 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,440 you'll get hurt by the coral, and where the otters are kind of 291 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,440 directing from the hydras on how to get the pearls. 292 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,520 And so like you have to do what the otters say, but if you do, 293 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:41,880 you can get the pearls that are located in the reef. 294 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,120 Very cool. And so talking about the 295 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,880 inspiration to your game, you said that it was in the same 296 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,000 world as one of your previous games. 297 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:58,560 Was that like, did you know you wanted to do that from the 298 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,040 beginning or did that come later? 299 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,000 That came later, actually. So one of the things that the 300 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,760 pandemic did is it kind of messed up my brain and I only 301 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,720 make games about birds. It's fine. 302 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,400 And so originally this was called Sandpiper Villa and it 303 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,720 was about Sandpipers having condos on the beach. 304 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,080 Because I had this little idea in my head where the dice are 305 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,600 different sized birds. And if you can envision birds 306 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,680 advertising like the bigger the sign like either the more birds 307 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,240 you need or the bigger birds. Sure. 308 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,200 So. Like a size 12 sign, Like you 309 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,680 could get 2 size six birds to hold that up, or like a size 5, 310 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,760 four and three bird. OK. 311 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,360 And that was, it was like the thing that was going on in my 312 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,320 head at the time. And then I realized, well, I 313 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,800 realized a while ago, like I made a game about Ravens, a game 314 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,360 about flamingos, a game about firebirds, about water birds. 315 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,520 Like I have too many bird games. Actually, one of my consultants 316 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,839 was like, hey, you should make a, a Kickstarter That's like, 317 00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:08,640 here's these 12 bird games that my, you know, crazy brain came 318 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:10,680 up with when I was like locked in my house. 319 00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:14,359 I've not done that yet. So I was trying to like see like 320 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:19,440 where in my universes things fit in and it was a whole like 3 321 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,000 dice thing where it was like, oh, there's three dice and 322 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:24,800 there's usually 3 heads to the hydra. 323 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,920 There can actually be four or five, but typical amount for 324 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,320 Hydras is 3. So I started with that. 325 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,600 And it also is very like logical and the wicked and wise 326 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,160 universe. It has wicked and wise, which is 327 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,120 like a trick taking game, which is very for the people that are 328 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:43,320 very trick taking and take it seriously. 329 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:47,280 It's about like counting cards and like playing the right one, 330 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,480 like giving up this so you can take that trick and that sort of 331 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,400 thing. And there's also logic and lore, 332 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,600 which is it actually says it in the name logic. 333 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,640 It's a two player logic game where you have to like figure 334 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,120 about the clues to put your cards in a row. 335 00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,640 So I thought this like one, it fit in thematically with like 336 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,920 and the Hydra and also with the logic. 337 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,440 And then I read about the otters, the otters Latin name, 338 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,560 and it was just like, oh, that's obvious now. 339 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,280 That that's fantastic. So what? 340 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,960 So where did you go from? Or was it always design wise a 341 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,120 rolling right? Or was it a dice rolling and a 342 00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:32,720 move? Or how was it early on before it 343 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,760 became hydrants? It was always rolling right. 344 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,760 OK. Yeah, and it always had. 345 00:18:39,680 --> 00:19:03,960 I do have a. 346 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,200 But I think I'm holding that one behind. 347 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,040 That was my first one I designed. 348 00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:17,720 It's super simple and it's actually involves other players. 349 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:23,240 And I think that might either be like a Kickstarter like stretch 350 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,440 goal or just like another expansiony thing. 351 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,400 And I say like expansiony thing because I designed this very 352 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,120 specifically for the three sheets where there's ruins and 353 00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:35,400 enchantments and reefs. And like in this one, you can 354 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,360 sub out the reefs for whatever. But like I have other ship 355 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,160 Bruins and other enchantments. So like you can just put them 356 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,800 all together and choose one of each of the types and then you 357 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:50,280 have like a very modular game. So I want to ask you about how 358 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:54,480 you approach game design, right? I'm kind of zooming out for just 359 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,360 a minute. Big picture, you mentioned you 360 00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:01,800 had a lot of bird themed games. Do you try to fit the theme? 361 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,680 Into a mechanic? Or do you try to find a mechanic 362 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,280 that fits your theme? How do you approach designing a 363 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,840 game in general Well. So I've been doing this a lot. 364 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,720 So I have done like the whole gambit of things. 365 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:19,520 Umm, generally I get like a thematic like thing with the 366 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,840 like birds holding up the science and stuff. 367 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,280 And then I figure out how that works out. 368 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,520 But I have done mechanics first design where I have like a list 369 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:29,880 of mechanics that like I just really like. 370 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:31,960 Like I really want to do like a nice split. 371 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,360 You choose game. But like every time I try to put 372 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:36,680 that in, I ended up taking it out because it's wrong. 373 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,520 Like, but it's fine. I'll eventually make my I split. 374 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,600 I've also done like weird things where like I'll get a color 375 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,080 palette and like design A game around a color palette or very 376 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:53,080 like like components themed like one of my games roaring right. 377 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:58,160 I actually a manufacturer was emailing about custom dice and I 378 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,280 was like, well, I really just wanted an excuse to make custom 379 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,800 dice. So what can like what game would 380 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,480 fit in this? And I do just like two or three 381 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,880 dice in a bag and like a tiny, tiny game. 382 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,360 And then it kind of, it went larger than that. 383 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:15,960 But like, that's where it started. 384 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,160 It was like, what's the fewest amount of dice that I can use to 385 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,880 make a game? And at that point it was six. 386 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,440 I'm getting smaller apparently, because this one has 3/3. 387 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,800 So yeah, it's can be anything. Just like one of the things I 388 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,520 really like is doing the name first because I'm also really 389 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,080 bad at names. But I've come up with some, 390 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,440 like, really good names where it's like, OK, well, that's just 391 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,960 the game. Like Poly Laminos. 392 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:52,360 Yeah, the names are really silly and like Flamingo Flamingo. 393 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,000 It's about flamingos finding friends. 394 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:57,520 They're mingling. Nice, nice. 395 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,280 The one thing that is like sometimes bad about the name, 396 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,840 like I have puffins love muffins and I've been working on that 397 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,280 for a while. But like my spouse is always 398 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,200 like, I absolutely hate that because you know, you think of 399 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,800 puffins love muffins and you think of like a game for six 400 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,760 year olds and that is a heavy euro. 401 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,400 And it's like, well, puffins love muffins. 402 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,320 So they make them to trade them for souvenirs at the local 403 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,480 souvenir shop, and then they take the souvenirs home to 404 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,720 organize them on their shelf. And that works for my brain, but 405 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,480 it's a bit too cutesy and also heavy at the same time for it to 406 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,160 be a game that I've released yet. 407 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,000 So we're working up to it. You're working on it, you're 408 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,120 working up to it. I love. 409 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,400 It you to look at a game and like just because like this one 410 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:50,320 has a like axolotl, like headed Hydra and it's cute, doesn't 411 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,640 mean that it's for babies like people. 412 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,280 Can like. Cute things that are colorful 413 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,240 and they're not just for six year olds, right? 414 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,760 Because those sorts of things appeal to like women a lot more. 415 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:06,320 Like, women love colors. Like, generally it's kind of 416 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,600 cool to see at conventions where, like, my booth is 417 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,960 typically pretty rainbow and you could, like, see who is 418 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,360 attracted to the colors. But yeah, like, that's another 419 00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:16,360 way to make the games, like, more diverse and open for other 420 00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:18,160 people. It's just like, let's make them 421 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,160 colorful and pretty to look at, but they don't have to be like, 422 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,360 the colors mean, like, for children and like, it's shades 423 00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:26,960 of brown. That's a euro. 424 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,480 This is a great sideway because the next question I wanted to 425 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,560 ask you was about the art, specifically of Reef and Ruins. 426 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,640 Who did the art, the concept but Walker through the specific art 427 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,880 for Reef and Ruins? So I had one of my illustrator 428 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,800 or graphic designers was working with me. 429 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,960 I had made my prototype in PowerPoint because I'm an 430 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,480 engineer. I know how to use PowerPoint 431 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,640 really well. And so she went through and made 432 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,440 it a little bit more pretty. But then one of my other, I work 433 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,240 with like a number of illustrators and graphic 434 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,000 designers and John Merchant was like, oh, I saw you posting 435 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,440 about this and I would love to do all the artwork. 436 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,440 I have all these ideas and I was like, great, cool. 437 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,520 So he just came up with this concept. 438 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,280 Originally all the hydras had different kinds of heads and I 439 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,120 was like they're all axolotl heads for this. 440 00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:16,240 Right, right. Because that's cute. 441 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:22,600 But yeah, he has worked with me for at least 5:00 or so years. 442 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,520 And I really like working with him because, like, he gets me. 443 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,200 Like, I'll just tell him what I want and he'll come back with 444 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:29,960 like, some crazy, like, rainbow thing. 445 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,120 And I'm like, yes, perfect. Because normally I need to like, 446 00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:36,440 beg artists and stuff to be like, oh, more bright, more 447 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,080 colors. Like, it's fine to use your 448 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,000 colors. OK. 449 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,480 I just I want colors. That's Don't be afraid of color. 450 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,440 Yeah, cuz like, well, on one hand, if anyone is color blind 451 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,320 or anything using like bright different colors is really 452 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,400 helpful. But it's also helpful if people 453 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,840 like don't have enough light or just like to differentiate 454 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,920 things like because it it just takes you out of the fun if 455 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,960 you're like, is that like dark blue or is that black? 456 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,080 Like when you're thinking thoughts like that you're not 457 00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:07,040 having fun and I would rather you just have fun. 458 00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:10,880 So I try to take out all those things and yeah, just if you 459 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,400 focus on accessibility for like all different kinds of things 460 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,680 and everyone will just have more fun of the overall. 461 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,400 So I want to talk about the components to reef and ruins. 462 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,320 It connects to design and art, and it also talks about color 463 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,160 because I love it. I think it's great. 464 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,880 Have you finalized the dice and the pencils for this game? 465 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:31,560 I'm. Not yet. 466 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,160 Usually for Kickstarter stuff, I see how well the Kickstarter 467 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,520 does because right now, well, the dice I sent out were like 468 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,240 some swirly dice. But like, if it does really 469 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,800 well, maybe they'll be glitter. Maybe they'll be like brighter 470 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,840 colors or bigger, you know? So you. 471 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,680 Can do with dice if you want to spend lots of money. 472 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,160 The pencils that you sent to me are this, these different hues 473 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,240 of blue and aquamarine. There's a white one, but I just 474 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,760 dropped it on the floor on accident. 475 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,360 But then even the dice, they're in a plastic bag, so you can't 476 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:06,880 see them, but they're beautiful blue. 477 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,520 They do have a shimmer, almost like the deep ocean. 478 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,440 So I thought that was really cool and unique, even in the 479 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,600 components that you're handling, convey artistically and visually 480 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,960 the overall theme and design of the game. 481 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,080 And I thought that was brilliant. 482 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:24,720 Thank you. Oh yeah. 483 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,120 Thank you. I'm hoping that's intentional. 484 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,960 Like I definitely like try to make you like immersed in the 485 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,040 experience. Like why have dice that don't 486 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,600 match when they could and why why not? 487 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,760 Like one of the things that didn't match that much was this 488 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,800 little Otter because I had one of my friends make it. 489 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,840 But like usually for meatballs, I have them like a well, I have 490 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,080 like a mock up on the Kickstarter what where it'll be 491 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,160 brown and have like little markings and stuff. 492 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,320 But I like green. So This is why they're green 493 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,440 right now. But you even mentioned that it 494 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,800 hadn't been finalized. You had like a little, yeah. 495 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,080 Yeah, like nothing is finalized until it's finalized. 496 00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:04,000 Wait, if anyone comes up with like more things or like, Oh 497 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,880 yeah, like pencils need to be like this size for this reason 498 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,920 or you know, whatever, there's gonna be lots of Kickstarter 499 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,040 comments. And I make sure sure incorporate 500 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,000 all of that because like I have my own people that I play test 501 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,080 with and I have my own ideas. But like other people, like know 502 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,720 more about things and then I take that into consideration 503 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:23,640 too. How much? 504 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,320 How much? I'm sorry, how much play testing 505 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,960 have you done for reef and ruins? 506 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,120 This game came together rather quickly, so it's I made it last 507 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:38,400 September, so like a year ago, but I have been like carrying it 508 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,560 around the country. This is actually really easy to 509 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,560 carry because I sure it's three dice and pencils and paper. 510 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:52,120 So like I just, I've gone to at least 10 conventions, maybe more 511 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:54,840 than that. It's like, what is my life? 512 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,000 I know that I've been to, I've taken this to two design 513 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,880 retreats, which is like a week thing where we play test the 514 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,520 whole week. So yeah, a lot. 515 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,240 I also play it with like my local group where as much as I 516 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,840 can get them to play the same game repeatedly. 517 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,720 So yeah, like a year's worth of like maybe once a week, maybe 518 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,240 more than that depending on like the conference, because like 519 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,400 people will see me like at a conference playing it and 520 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:23,840 they'll be like, well, rolling, right? 521 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,680 I want to play too. So we'll be like, OK, we'll play 522 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,120 again, maybe with like some minor change or something. 523 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,400 It's also really easy to do rolling rights at conferences 524 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,440 because normally if you're at a hotel, there's a. 525 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,040 Right. And you can always find pencils. 526 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,520 Yep, I love that. Everywhere. 527 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,080 I love them if you want. To change it I just bring my 528 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,920 computer and print out a new one and in like an hour I have 529 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:49,600 another version. That's awesome. 530 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,160 So it's coming to Kickstarter October 15th, correct? 531 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,480 Yes. Yes, that's a Tuesday. 532 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,040 Mm Hmm. Yep. 533 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:05,520 So tell us, tell us about the details, where can people find 534 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,000 you, follow you and get all your other products as well as reef 535 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,520 and ruins? So I have a website 536 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,440 aweirddraftgames.com. The Kickstarter will be on 537 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,280 Kickstarter. You could search roof and ruins. 538 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,600 I believe the address for it will be like the QikLink will be 539 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,000 weird draft games.com/R where you could just put that in and 540 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,840 it'll go straight to either the Kickstarter page or if you 541 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,800 listen to this in like months from now. 542 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,280 For a year from now, probably just straight to the website 543 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,000 page where you can buy it. That's why quick links are so 544 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,640 fun. I can just change where they go 545 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,120 depending. Absolutely. 546 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:47,920 But I'm also sometimes on footer and blue sky and Facebook as 547 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,880 weird draft games or weird giraffes. 548 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,440 But I have a discord at weirddraftgames.com/discord 549 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,960 where we talk about mental health things, game stuff, and 550 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:58,600 memes. Those are like the three big 551 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,280 topics. That is one of some that is 552 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:08,160 weird giraffegames.com and you'll find a Kickstarter reef 553 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,400 and ruins October 15th. It's Tuesday. 554 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,360 So that's that's exciting. Is there anything else that you, 555 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,240 any closing remarks that you want to share with our 556 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,680 listeners, our viewers, Sorry, our viewers now, Carla. 557 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,080 Also with the Kickstarter will be Wicked and Wise Reflections 558 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,600 which is an expansion, the Wicked and Wise and the Wicked 559 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,640 and Wise Deluxe which will be like more fancy and stuff if you 560 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,360 are a fan of either of those or just fans of trick taking games. 561 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,560 But yeah, thanks everyone for listening. 562 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,080 I guess like my final things are I try to make like little cutesy 563 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,080 things more accessible in addition to like just gaming in 564 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,040 general, like making sure that things are colorblind friendly, 565 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,120 have really pretty artwork to try to get people interested in 566 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,800 the game. And the rules would definitely 567 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,160 be better because I mean, that's like the Kickstarter process as 568 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,280 well. But yeah, if you ever have any 569 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,000 questions on game design or just want to talk about games, feel 570 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,080 free to reach out to me either on Discord or e-mail. 571 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,840 My e-mail is carla@weirddraftgames.com. 572 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,280 So thanks for listening to me rant about adders and hydras and 573 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,600 stuff. Well, honestly, thank you for I 574 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,600 have a passion for play testing games. 575 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,120 I love seeing games before they're finalized and my wife 576 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,920 and I are huge play testers. So we really enjoyed this was a 577 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,560 great experience. The first run was rough, but 578 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,400 then we figured it out. So so thanks. 579 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,120 Thanks for trusting us. Thanks for coming on the show 580 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:45,560 and starting us on the journey of our next 100 episodes live in 581 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,280 video. This is great guys. 582 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,760 Thanks again. But don't forget to like 583 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,440 subscribe. I'm pointing. 584 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,080 I've never had to do that before, so I don't even know if 585 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,920 I'm pointing. So Gareth will do some editing 586 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,560 and we'll just point. I'm going to point and there 587 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,760 will be something for you to like and subscribe. 588 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:05,320 So thanks again everyone.