1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:06,360 Hey and welcome to Episode 135 where we explore the game that 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:11,160 opened the door to an entire world of tabletop adventures. 3 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:16,360 We will dive into the hex shaped classic that started it all for 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:20,760 generations of gamers. Today, I sit down with the CEO 5 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:25,440 of Catan Studio to explore the legacy and ongoing impact of one 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,240 of the most influential board games of all time. 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:33,360 Catan didn't just change how we play, it changed who we play 8 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,960 with. For three decades, it's simple, 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,480 yet strategic gameplay has connected gamers, fostering 10 00:00:39,480 --> 00:00:43,680 friendships, family memories, and global communities around a 11 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,680 shared experience at the table. From trading sheep for wheat to 12 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,080 building settlements that sparked conversation, Catan has 13 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,480 become more than a game, it's a cultural touchstone. 14 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:00,120 Join me as I traverse its origins, evolution, and the 15 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,640 vision that continues to guide this modern classic. 16 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,600 Can you build the longest road and avoid the robber? 17 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:10,000 Joining me is Pete Fenland, CEO of Catan Studio. 18 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,720 Pete, thanks for being on and it's good to see you. 19 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:15,560 Thanks for having me on PJI. Appreciate it. 20 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,000 It's wonderful to be able to join you and your community. 21 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,360 Thank you. Love to have a conversation with 22 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,160 someone who loves games so much. Yep. 23 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:30,000 So this is incredible, 30 years this year, what, what has that 24 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:31,200 been like? What has that experience been 25 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,120 like for you? Well, it's been a great ride. 26 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,760 It is. I'd like to say it's been a 27 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,040 great start. I like to think that we're just 28 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,400 getting started on this wonderful journey with Katan. 29 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,960 It has been the better part of a long career for me, which has 30 00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:49,560 been a labor for love. I've been making games for 45 31 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,360 years and discovered Katan about 1/3 of the way through that. 32 00:01:53,840 --> 00:02:01,800 It's been joyful to try and grow the gaming culture, the culture 33 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,480 I love so much that I live in so much sort of organically with 34 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,759 this, with this wonderful story on this wonderful game and share 35 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,440 more and more every year. So I can't tell you how many 36 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,400 times, and I'm sure you've experienced this as well, every 37 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,200 time I have a guest on and I talk to them, I always ask them 38 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,400 the same question. So be prepared. 39 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,160 I'm going to ask this question of you as well, but your answer 40 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,200 is going to be different. What is the game that got you in 41 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,800 this hobby? And it is always, almost always 42 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,640 Catan. And so you have a very different 43 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:34,640 answer because you've been gaming before. 44 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:41,800 Yeah, I, well, yeah. At at age 70, having been in 45 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:46,440 this hobby for actually as a professional game publisher for 46 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:53,840 45 years, I have a little bit longer shadow, I guess to to to 47 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:59,280 look back on. I think I've been a gamer since 48 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,120 I can remember. I started out in life as a 49 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,640 military brat, moving from place to place. 50 00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:10,680 Games were always a way to meet new people and find friends. 51 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,240 You know you have to make new friends every two or three years 52 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:20,800 when you are a military brat. I really love all kinds of 53 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,600 games, particularly physical game, sports and the like. 54 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:28,560 And I love to play outside. But when I was about 8 years old 55 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,280 or so, we moved to Germany, I noticed that it was harder to 56 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,560 play outside because the weather wasn't quite as good as I was 57 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,280 used to in the base before, which was near Washington, DC. 58 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,960 So when we got to Germany, I certainly was playing a lot of 59 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,440 sports, running around a lot when I could. 60 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:48,120 But when it got rainy and Gray, which is, you know, a little too 61 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,160 often for my taste, and we're sort of trapped inside, board 62 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,320 games became the best kind of fun. 63 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,760 And that's true at night as well and in the winter and all that 64 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,880 stuff. So I was lucky that I had a dad 65 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,400 who liked games. He and I played checkers and 66 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:10,160 chess, but he also had a whole set of these wonderful bookcase 67 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:15,440 games from and the Minnesota Mining Manufacturing Company. 68 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:21,480 These were kind of a gift that he had received from friends who 69 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,280 knew he liked the games. He was kind of a competitive 70 00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:26,160 guy. Anyway, he shared those games. 71 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,560 We started playing those when I was eightish, 9:00-ish years 72 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,520 old. And they were Twix, choir, 73 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,000 stocks and bonds, games like that. 74 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,920 And in addition to that, we, you know, he, we're living on 75 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,760 military bases. My dad was an Air Force officer. 76 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,360 We like to explore history a lot. 77 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,800 And there were games that he went out and bought because of 78 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,200 that. And so we got US Milton Bradley 79 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:56,000 games, Dogfight Broadside, some of these very early war games 80 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:01,200 that then led me through to Avalon Hill games, which were a 81 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,720 revelation. Again, these were all basically 82 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,080 tabletop strategy games of different kinds, the three more 83 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,920 abstract, little, you know, less, you know, competitive 84 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,320 military type things. But all of them were great board 85 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:14,720 games. And, you know, I like this. 86 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:17,560 That's how I discovered gaming, how I got into the hobby. 87 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:19,400 Yeah. And of course, as we played 88 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,280 them, you know, they're always house rules. 89 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:25,320 And well, get enough house rules, you you get, you start 90 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,080 game designing, you know, Right. Yeah, right. 91 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,080 Yeah. So anyway, that's that's that 92 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:37,520 was entry point circa late. OK, so that's that's in the 60s. 93 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:42,280 You had told me when we had met Ajen Kano, you had dived into 94 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,800 early D&D in the 70s, right? Is that right? 95 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,440 Yeah. So I, I, yeah, as, as we, as, as 96 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,920 we moved, we ended up moving from Germany to Illinois, where 97 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,000 I discovered a sports game. So I was heavily into sports, 98 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,000 baseball player, football player, you know, all that 99 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,240 stuff. I discovered Stratomatic 100 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,160 baseball and football. They, they were obsessions in my 101 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:12,560 middle, middle school years. And then we moved through 102 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:18,000 Oklahoma and then to Northern Virginia outside DC and I ended 103 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,880 up in my final three years in high school, a very special high 104 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,000 school. I had a wonderful game club and 105 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,440 I had a planetarium. So, you know, it's pretty, 106 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,040 pretty damn cool. High school and the game club, 107 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,480 you know, was pretty magical. I really enjoyed, you know, that 108 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,880 pursuing more board gaming, tweaking this and that. 109 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:41,480 But the real key, real interesting thing about that 110 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,320 high school was my program. I was in a special program where 111 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,520 the second-half of my day, every day for the last three years of 112 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,840 high school was one class. And it was a class taught 113 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:55,800 through time by team of people. They would teach you the art, 114 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,800 the music, the politics, the sort of historical background, 115 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,640 you know, all the stuff, you know, the liberal arts or human, 116 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,400 human arts of a culture, culture by culture through time. 117 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,320 So we started with Mesopotamia as a sophomore in high school. 118 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,080 We ended running a mock election for mock presidential election 119 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,960 for the whole high school at the end of our senior year. 120 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,680 And so at the end of each segment, Mesopotamia, Egypt, 121 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,600 Rome, whatever it may be, Greece, Rome, we had 122 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:28,280 role-playing that we wrapped up this this segment by kind of 123 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:34,760 role-playing the, the, the historic culture and that, you 124 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,680 know, you ended up in the French Revolution, for instance, And I 125 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,520 was, I think I was a cardinal, you know, and, and swept up and 126 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,080 all of that, you know, and, and, and sure, mark election, you end 127 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,440 up, you know, have being essentially a political 128 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,960 operative or press person or whatever it was that you were 129 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,400 role-playing. So I actually learned about 130 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:59,240 role-playing that way. And, you know, and I of course 131 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,040 also, you know, had learned about a kind of storytelling 132 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,080 around campfires through scouting. 133 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:09,160 And I've done a ton of that. And so between those things and 134 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:11,800 the fact that I grew up in a military family where both 135 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,440 parents had served in multiple wars and were themselves 136 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,960 storytellers, was kind of immersed in different angles, 137 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:23,280 different aspects of, of, of storytelling and, and then 138 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,320 role-playing. So I then came to the University 139 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,320 of Virginia 1973 with a little bit of background on that. 140 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:36,760 Now, I had also been backpacking as a, I'm an outdoors guy, been 141 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,039 backpacking in Yosemite to the summer prior to college. 142 00:08:40,039 --> 00:08:43,520 And I had let I read Lord of the Rings while on that backpacking 143 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,480 trip and that affected me in a big way. 144 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,680 I really love that story. Reading it in in the High 145 00:08:50,680 --> 00:08:54,280 Country, you know, it was doubly inspiring, particularly, you 146 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,600 know, given the fact that you somebody sort of inspired 147 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,920 Rivendell. And when I got to the university 148 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,200 and I count to the game club there, I kind of went in 149 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,640 thinking I'm going to be playing some, you know, war games or, 150 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,520 you know, strategy games that I was sort of used to. 151 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:13,600 And I saw a bunch of people sitting around playing deep and 152 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,280 they're playing DND in an environment set. 153 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:22,120 Well, they're playing DND in Middle Earth and that's what 154 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,800 first attracted me was the, the Middle Earth side of it and left 155 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:30,000 the, the D&D side of it. But once I saw they were 156 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,520 role-playing and I knew how to role play, I thought, gosh, this 157 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:35,400 is really cool idea. And they were having a lot of 158 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,480 fun. And so I, you know, I sat in 159 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,200 and, and, and eventually became part of the game. 160 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:47,080 And this would have been 1974, not long after the indie had 161 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:52,120 come out with some white rocks. Yeah, That's, that was my, I 162 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,560 guess that that was the my next entry into a deeper type of what 163 00:09:56,560 --> 00:09:58,560 we called adventure games. Sure. 164 00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:01,520 Yeah. So here you are in college. 165 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,880 You're equipped with an upbringing throughout the world 166 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,720 as a military brat. Yeah, you've learned strategy 167 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,240 games, starting with checkers and chess, through through war 168 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,600 games, role-playing in high school. 169 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,280 Now you're playing DND. Fast forward 20 years. 170 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:21,760 How did you end up? How did you discover Catan and 171 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,240 be one of the key individuals to bring it to the world? 172 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:30,720 Yeah, so I, I ended up inheriting the role-playing game 173 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:36,120 that I was playing in at, at the University of Virginia only a 174 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,960 year after I started playing, when the professor that was 175 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:45,680 running the game had to take off to teach it at West Point and 176 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,320 kind of handed the keys to me. And I said to the guys that at 177 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,720 at the time and at the time, it was all guys, sadly, you know, 178 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:58,880 hey, I, I really love this game. But you know, Dick, who was 179 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,400 running the game, didn't know that much about Middle Earth and 180 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,320 and and actually the game system kind of sucks. 181 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,000 So my and it wasn't because DND wasn't brilliant, It was but 182 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,720 right was it what had been evil? It had evolved out of a 183 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:17,840 chainmail and and it wasn't quite yeah, the D it wasn't 184 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,520 anywhere where like the D&D of today, the really, you know, 185 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,960 well evolved D&D of today. So I resolved that we would have 186 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,000 to start changing parts of the game to reflect the Middle Earth 187 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,960 and also to reflect the kind of the physics of the real world. 188 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,200 Cuz I again, I'm an outdoors guy. 189 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:38,840 I know a lot about history, this and that and it D&D just didn't 190 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:44,440 make any sense. So we I, you know, we embarked 191 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,200 on a kind of new journey and I would introduce new game systems 192 00:11:48,560 --> 00:11:52,160 over the course of the next few years and evolved that game that 193 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,200 we were playing into a game, a wholly new game called Role 194 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,720 Master. And it was OK house role-playing 195 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,960 game. I found ended up founding a game 196 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:04,880 company out of that when my wife, Manel wife, who had become 197 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,800 a player and a principal play tester and a contributor to the 198 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,960 game, Olivia Johnston, convinced me to talk to her sister about 199 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,920 starting a mail order company. Because her sister knew that I 200 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:21,120 designed this game and that we we had a team of folks that were 201 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,640 playing the game and the kind of a kind of a team that might go 202 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,160 into, you know, perhaps into business together. 203 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,760 We've been talking a little bit about the idea and, you know, 204 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,120 and she knew I might want to do a mail order thing sort of like 205 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,880 Spia company that had been making game simulations 206 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,440 publications and she was a mail order specialist. 207 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:47,720 She had come out of college and and said, you know, I've got the 208 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,600 skills to to maybe do the marketing or the mail order 209 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,440 stuff if you want to start a company. 210 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,200 My and that was that was kind of the spark that, you know, the 211 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,280 final spark. And I went and I said, yeah, I 212 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,560 think I will start a company. And I went and talked to my 213 00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:07,880 players at the time we had about, we had pretty big group 214 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,880 of of up to 18 players in my game, but. 215 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,520 Wow, that's a that's a lot. Big game, but at the time I 216 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,440 announced that there were 11 in that particular gaming group 217 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,520 because, you know, sometimes we met together, sometimes in 218 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,400 separate groups. And yeah, about nine of them 219 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,040 were enthusiastic about joining me on the, on a new journey. 220 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,560 So I found a company called Iron Crime Enterprises, which was 221 00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:38,200 short, it was called ICE. And it has nothing to do with 222 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:43,760 the US government. And, and we, we started 223 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,960 publishing Role Master and some other products in 19. 224 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,640 In fact, we actually also published the official 225 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,680 Battlefield game for the Battle of Manassas because one of the 226 00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:58,960 guys joining us happened to design A brilliant Manassas 227 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:00,960 game. But anyway, that's how I started 228 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,240 and we became a, you know, you know, a start up in a, in a very 229 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,760 small world, a very small pond of adventure game publishers. 230 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,520 And about two years after that, we acquired the rights to The 231 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,000 Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, all of the gaming rights 232 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:24,280 as part of a play that I made after TSR had lost those rights. 233 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,920 And TSR was the publisher of DND and that kind of put us on the 234 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,080 map and we then embarked on a building, Middle Earth 235 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,480 role-playing and a whole world of Middle Earth. 236 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,680 And we then became a one of the bigger players in the small 237 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,400 adventure game business, I should say small but growing 238 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,040 adventure game business. And we sort of helped that 239 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,880 business along the course of the next years. 240 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,480 The following years, we began to do a lot more of our own 241 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,320 original game publishing. We went branched into game 242 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,840 interactive books, game books, we branched into board games. 243 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:06,240 We discovered some really amazing European design while I 244 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:10,800 was at Frankfurt Book Fair and then later Essen Game Fair and 245 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:16,120 also at the Nuremberg Toy Fair. And, and we began importing Big 246 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,960 Bad Wolf's Flying Turtle games, which was a line from Belgium. 247 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,760 Brilliant games from my friend Chauvinist's and and a number of 248 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,440 other great designers. And these were games that were, 249 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,560 we're actually debuting at the very earliest of the Essen 250 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,800 fairs. And we were then beginning to 251 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:34,560 connect, you know, across the ocean. 252 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,360 We were also designing our own board games, some of the Middle 253 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,600 Earth games based on designed by my friends, particularly Coleman 254 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,840 Charlton, who was my big biggest partner, who's my principal 255 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:51,360 partner at ICE. He was head of our design team 256 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,120 and and Coleman had designed some really cool Middle Earth 257 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,440 games and some of our other guys also designed some cool stuff. 258 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,640 Rick Britain and designed Cleric, another board game, 259 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,280 Cleric's Revenge. And so we had our own board 260 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,040 little board game line. We were importing board games 261 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:12,200 and this would have been in the East by now and early 90s, late 262 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,520 80s, early 90s, we discovered some of the brilliant games from 263 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,800 our friend Chris Burme and brilliant abstract game designer 264 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,560 in Belgium and Roland Segers. And so we knew some of the 265 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,600 players, we'd heard of some of these designers. 266 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:32,720 We knew a little bit about, you know, the, the, the, the German 267 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,520 game culture as well, from going to Frankfurt Book Fair, 268 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:37,560 Nuremberg Toy Fair, and then Aston. 269 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,680 And I was going to Aston every other year and sending somebody 270 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,280 else every other year at this point. 271 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,120 These were the very earliest of the Essen Fair, right? 272 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:51,600 So in 1995, this amazing game came out, it debuted and and was 273 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,960 spotlighted at Essen and that was Qatar. 274 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,520 Now, coincidentally, I was not there, but I, I was whole. 275 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,320 I'd gone to Frankfurt Book Fair that year and and my friend Kurt 276 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:06,160 Fisher had gone to Essen, but he came back and talked, talked a 277 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,960 little bit about, you know what, what was hot there. 278 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,800 And a friend of another friend, Keewa Cheeves, who always went 279 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,880 to Essen and who's ultimately was somewhat of a a legend in 280 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,680 his own name. All right, A number of key games 281 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,480 were later named after him. Keywood brought, you know, a 282 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,520 number of his favorite games to our happy hour. 283 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,040 And this was right after that year. 284 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,920 And one of them was Qatar. And we had this wonderful happy 285 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,000 hour and iron crown that occurred every Friday night 286 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,360 where we brought all the British families in. 287 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:45,240 They could have food and music and gaming and kind of start the 288 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:51,160 weekend in a in a fleisual away and then go off and explore the 289 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,920 downtown of Charlottesville because we also had outdoor 290 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,800 music at that time and well, still do. 291 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,480 And it was just a really good way to to bring the community, 292 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,320 the ice community together. We played Katan the day that he 293 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,160 would brought it, not a week or so after he got back from 294 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,560 medicine. It was an immediate hit and I 295 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:17,320 played it a couple times saying this is as good as any board 296 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,600 game I've ever played. And my take away from my own 297 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,680 experience and the experience of everybody there, many of whom 298 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,440 are fantastically experienced gamers. 299 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,760 It was this is as good again game as they had ever played or 300 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,680 anybody had ever played. And if we wanted to really grow 301 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,680 game culture in the, in the board game through the board 302 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,280 game, a community which is really at the heart of the 303 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,720 gaming community, the analog gaming community, period, this 304 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,360 might be the way. And, and I thought, well, you 305 00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:49,800 know, I've always wanted to grow gaming. 306 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,920 I love it when people play games because they have fun and it's 307 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,720 great to share the joy and it's good for everybody. 308 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:58,000 And really, it's good for the culture. 309 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,240 Would it be wonderful if when people think of a board game, 310 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,760 they don't think about Monopoly, but they think about something 311 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:10,960 really good, like like the time? And so I, being a guy deeply 312 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:16,200 rooted in fantasy, fantasized about that a little bit and and 313 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,120 then resolved. And I wanted to call the 314 00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:24,880 designer Klaus Toiber and see if he might give us the rights to 315 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,080 publish Katan at least in English and perhaps even English 316 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,840 worldwide. And of course, when I did call 317 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,120 him, I had very halting German, my my kinder Deutsch from my 318 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:38,400 childhood. And Klaus had very primitive 319 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,120 English at the time, barely, barely communicated. 320 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:46,520 But it was clear from Klaus that he had already licensed another 321 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,960 company to do English language Katan. 322 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:54,320 In fact, he had licensed them at right, right at at the Essen 323 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,640 Fair that year and it was Mayfair Games. 324 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,400 Mayfair Games was a, a game company, another adventure game 325 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:05,360 company in Chicago, IL run by my friend Darwin Bromley. 326 00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:08,440 And I, I said, I know that's too bad. 327 00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:12,400 Darwin, you know, like Darwin and respected him. 328 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,040 And I thought, you know, at least it's in good hands. 329 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,640 And was that for a time, You know, there was then. 330 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,040 Sort of a, a little bit of a hiccup in time before I, I 331 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:30,600 actually received the rights that I had sought that year 332 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,320 because it would be another year and change before. 333 00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:39,360 Yeah, a little over a year before Darwin called me and 334 00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:43,280 said, hey Pete, we're about to close Mayfair Games. 335 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,000 We'd had they'd had a big disaster with the SIM City 336 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,640 Collectible card game and you know, largely because, you know, 337 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,360 the companies run or owned by a family trust and we want to 338 00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:58,240 preserve that trust for our descendants and rather than, you 339 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:03,240 know, endanger that we're going to close or sell Mayfair games. 340 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,560 And we thought, given the fact that you guys have just made a 341 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,920 ton of money off the middle of the collectible card game, 342 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,640 right, you guys might be a good white knight here, particularly 343 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,200 given the fact that I know Darwin, this is Darwin speaking, 344 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,000 paraphrasing. He knew that I love Katan and he 345 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,560 knew also that I loved a lot of the things that he had been 346 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,880 doing and train games and the like. 347 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,160 My grandfather, my mother's father had been an engineer on 348 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:30,520 the railroad. I'd love train games. 349 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,200 So he knew, he thought, OK, this, you know, this would be 350 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,720 good haven for it. And I know he knew me well. 351 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,320 My mother knew his mother. And that felt like a felt like a 352 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,880 great opportunity. I responded by saying, Darwin, I 353 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:49,160 will, we will buy your company if we strike a good deal. 354 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,720 I'm sure we can. If Klaus Troiver will allow us 355 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:58,080 to publish Qatan, he's going to have to agree to transfer those 356 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:02,320 rights to the new owners. And if he'll do that, then we'll 357 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,840 buy made for games. And we agreed. 358 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,200 Let's, you know, let's try that. So I contacted Klaus, so did 359 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,320 Darwin. We arranged I arranged to meet 360 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:17,880 Klaus in Nuremberg that that early January of 1997 went and 361 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,560 saw him. I expressed my vision that the 362 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,120 Catan should be the thing that people think about when the word 363 00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:28,800 board game comes out or words board game are expressed. 364 00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:31,440 No, I need to. I need to ask a question about 365 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,280 that conversation. Sure, How? 366 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,280 How was his English and how was your German this time? 367 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,040 It was not any better than on the phone, but the fortunate 368 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,960 thing was in in the Nuremberg setting, we had translators and 369 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:44,920 so we. Had you? 370 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,440 Know friends. And so when I met Klaus, you 371 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,520 know, I was also meeting some of the folks around him, Reiner 372 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,840 Mueller, you know, Fritz Gruber, some other guys that Fritz knew 373 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,400 English a bit better, and some of the folks from the Cosmos 374 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,200 publishing team. And then of course, I had German 375 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,560 friends, you know, particularly a friend was a publisher, 376 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,960 publishing partner in Germany, a guy named Gunter Doyle. 377 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:20,080 And Gunter was one of the founders of a, a major kind of a 378 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:24,720 multifaceted German publishing, retail and distribution company. 379 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:29,320 And Gunter Translate was our principal translator that day. 380 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,920 And he, he's kind of helped us strike, strike a friendship, 381 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,640 really. And yeah, we warmed to each 382 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,320 other even though we, we couldn't understand each other 383 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,320 perfectly. And Klaus told me, you know, 384 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,680 when I told him I I think that we can make, I think Katan 385 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,520 someday can be the game people think about when first when they 386 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,800 hear board game. You know, when I told him that 387 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,000 and I said, I don't know that it'll be on on my watch or our 388 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,320 watch, but I think it was it'd be a good quest. 389 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,560 It would be a good thing to to try and and make happen. 390 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,000 He said to me more or less, I don't know that about that. 391 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:05,880 I don't know that that can be done. 392 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,800 But I think you think that that that's that might be done that 393 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,400 that it's worth trying. And I would be happy to to 394 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,840 partner with you, assuming that my son Guido, who happens to 395 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:24,120 live in the United States and can visit you and reassure me 396 00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,560 that what you're telling me about your company and about 397 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:33,480 what you guys do is real. And so I said, well, I'd be 398 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:39,480 delighted to prove that to Gito. I'd be delighted to meet him and 399 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,440 be delighted to go through that vetting process. 400 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:47,440 And that's, that's what we what we arranged at that Nuremberg. 401 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:52,160 And it would be not six weeks or so before Gito and his then 402 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:58,080 girlfriend, now wife Emily, came to Charlottesville to see us and 403 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,760 check us out. And to say yay or nay to his 404 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,280 dad. And clearly he said yeah. 405 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,920 He did goodness, you know, this young guy, he he was been 406 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,520 exploring the New World, New Mexico and then the United 407 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,360 States fall in love with American was moving from New 408 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:18,200 York to New Orleans. His wife was going to grad 409 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,920 school. He was going to get a late start 410 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,880 as an undergraduate at the University of New Orleans. 411 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,880 And he was very, very curious guy, very adventurous guy. 412 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,360 And I hit it off with him right away. 413 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,160 Shared all kinds of common loves, you know, different music 414 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:41,120 and culture, you know, we were both curious souls. 415 00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:45,280 And as witness as his wife Emily, and as is my wife, Olivia 416 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:50,280 Johnston, we we all found friendships that we still 417 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:56,280 cherish today. Catan, in a sense, was just the 418 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,840 glue that bound us. But yeah, initially. 419 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,520 But yeah. Yeah. 420 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,400 So here's a question, because the time period you're 421 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,480 describing is when I get introduced to the game myself. 422 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,560 It's like that 97 to 99. And I remember it was a 423 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,240 settlers, a Catan and we refer to it as settlers. 424 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,760 Are you guys you want to play Settlers tonight? 425 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,040 It was always settlers. Well, are we playing with the 426 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,880 City of Knights expansion? Yes, you know, right. 427 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,880 It was because and that conversation still is today. 428 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,440 Are we playing the game with such and such? 429 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:28,800 Whatever game you're talking about? 430 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:30,880 Are we playing with the expansions right? 431 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:36,200 When did we drop the settlers and just go with Katan? 432 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,640 Yeah, yeah. Well, that actually was part of 433 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,240 the early discussion about vision and mission, you know, 434 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,360 and part of the discussion about whether we made for games should 435 00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:50,600 be playing with global rights or territorially, you know, 436 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:55,280 restricted rights. I told Gito and we had a long 437 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,360 good conversation about this. And then later through Gito with 438 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:05,640 Klaus that I, I wanted to do to publish Katan globally in 439 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:12,000 English and and step through a series of evolutions with the 440 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,800 brand to get to that, that vision of the future. 441 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:20,160 And that a game that was called De Siedlerfon Katan in Germany 442 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,520 and the Settlers of Katan in the United States and referred to as 443 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:32,240 Siedler or Settlers, was not going to grow as much as a game 444 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:38,080 that had its own name, just Katan, and had a global presence 445 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:43,720 as Katan rather than a regional or local presence as settlers. 446 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:50,400 So I said, you know, we're we we have right now the the reality 447 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,240 of today, which is Sigler or settlers. 448 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,160 And then and that's fine. People will always people who 449 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,960 play now, then then, you know, that was the late 90s. 450 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,040 People who play then, you know, will probably continue to call 451 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,400 it that. But in the future, we're going 452 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:12,200 to have to create a a community that that embraces this game as 453 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,280 Katan. And then to get there, we're 454 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,480 going to have to, we got a long way to go. 455 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,160 So we're going to have to go through various steps. 456 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,000 And, and we talked about it strategically charting the 457 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,440 brand. And at first, the first step 458 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,840 would be that de Seedler would have to become smaller than 459 00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:32,640 Katan. And then the next step would be 460 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,520 that Katan, then we would get rid of de Seedler, it would just 461 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,960 be Katan. And then that the next step 462 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,120 after that was we would introduce an icon in addition to 463 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,520 Katan that the sort of graphic expression of the brand. 464 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,040 And in the next step, maybe that the graphic expression, the 465 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,320 brand would be as strong or stronger than the name itself. 466 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,960 But people could identify Katan very distinctly from its name. 467 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,520 You know, it's very unique name and it's very unique identity. 468 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:06,000 And, and that that actually was part of the architecture of the, 469 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,280 of the quest. You know, that was kind of the, 470 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,120 the, you know, the sort of the bones of the road trip that we 471 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,840 were about to embark on starting in 97. 472 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:22,040 I think you've succeeded in that aspect because no one calls it 473 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,000 settlers anymore. I don't even call it settlers. 474 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,760 We all know, although you have not corrected me, but I have 475 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,320 noticed, I say Catan, you say Catan. 476 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,320 This is a conversation that we have at the bar after, you know, 477 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,520 on a Thursday night at Gencon. We go to the bar, which is a 478 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:38,560 Catan. Catan. 479 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,960 Well, so do you have? Which is it? 480 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:46,120 Do you have the T-shirt that says it's pronounced CA Catan 481 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:47,640 CATAN? It's. 482 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,240 Pronounced. OK, it's a great T-shirt. 483 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,200 Now the reason is, you know, I'm OK if you want to pronounce it 484 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,600 rutabaga, it doesn't matter to me. 485 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,080 Although, you know, that may confuse people a little bit 486 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,760 more, a little bit. Everybody has their own sense, 487 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,840 you know, the, the potato, potato, tomato, tomato thing, 488 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,120 You know, Ant, however you want to look at it. 489 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,880 Klaus called it Katan. OK, I might know. 490 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,880 You know, when I refer to Klaus now, I have to refer to him in 491 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:21,320 the past tense because we lost Klaus on April 1, 2023. 492 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,720 And he's a dear friend and he's always with us. 493 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,960 So, you know, we, I'm saluting him now and I'll, we're saluting 494 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,720 him always. But he called his world Catan, 495 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,160 his island Catan. And but he didn't care if you 496 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,640 call the Catan. And in fact, this would became a 497 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:43,160 big discussion point because in certain cultures, the that CATN 498 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,520 is going to be pronounced differently and at least one 499 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:50,280 culture, it's pronounced Satan. But fortunately that culture 500 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,800 doesn't think of that. They don't refer to Satan as 501 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,760 Satan. So it doesn't necessarily create 502 00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,680 a problem. You know, again, it's the 503 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,600 meaning behind the word, not the word itself. 504 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,800 But the fact is, you know, we had a big struggle inside the 505 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,640 brand at one point because the our French publishing licensee 506 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,320 Sublicensee, a localization partner, if you will, they had 507 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:18,440 added an E to Catan so that everyone said properly OK in 508 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,120 French. And, and we had to kind of 509 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,400 deconstruct that initiative. When we, when we became just 510 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,640 Catan, we had to explain, hey guys, that's not how you build, 511 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:30,720 right? Right. 512 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,640 It's always the French, isn't it? 513 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,440 Yeah, Yeah. Well, I work for a French 514 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,400 company, you know, Catan Studio is a part of Asthma Day. 515 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:43,040 And, and, and I have to say, yeah, we, we make a lot of jokes 516 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,160 about each other, you know, But at the end of the day, yes, 517 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,920 they're everybody's very proud of their culture. 518 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,600 And and just as we Americans like to think of ourselves as 519 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,600 the sun of the world, so do the Chinese think of themselves as 520 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,080 the middle king, and the French also think of themselves as the 521 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,440 place where the Sun King established the heart of the 522 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,800 world. So yeah, we have that thing 523 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,560 going. But anyway, at the end of that's 524 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,280 a long winded way of saying pronounce it however you want. 525 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,080 I happen to pronounce it Katan because I learned it from Klaus. 526 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,320 That's a fair OK, I'm going to do better. 527 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,920 I'm going to do better. OK, Yeah, OK. 528 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,840 Is that that's straight from the straight from the horse's mouth. 529 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,840 I. Live in the American South, you 530 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,880 know, Katan Studios in Charlottesville, VA Very, very 531 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,760 historic southern town and you know, you say aunt here, not 532 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,080 aunt right. So you're going to you you may 533 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,080 say you're you're never going to call it tomato here. 534 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:46,920 No, so Katan may not be the the the first way you might go here, 535 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,040 but in any case, that's that's the that's the. 536 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,760 That is how Klaus pronounced it. So guys, let's, I'm going to try 537 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,680 to do better. Guys, you try to do it as well, 538 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:58,720 right? My German accent's not as good 539 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,440 as his I. Love that, I love it. 540 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,680 What kind of individual was he? Did you get a sense of the man 541 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,680 himself through the years? Klaus was no Klaus was a dear 542 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:11,800 friend and I don't think I, I could, I could have published 543 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,800 well, I know I could not be publishing Catan today if if he 544 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:22,000 wasn't a very gentle and, and dear soul, a guy who who was 545 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,960 very empathetic, who stood by me through some very difficult 546 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,920 times, stood by our team through some very difficult times, was 547 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,040 very patient with us. Klaus was a like his son Guido, 548 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,520 like his other son Benny, his younger son Benjamin, who is now 549 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,040 our lead design guy, inherited the mantle lead designer from 550 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,440 club. He was very curious, an 551 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,400 adventurous guy. He liked, loved the outdoors, 552 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,160 loved to walk in the woods. I loved walking in the woods 553 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:54,480 with him and, and talking and dreaming and soaking up nature. 554 00:33:55,280 --> 00:34:01,240 He he loved to explore, loved to explore maps and and history. 555 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:08,639 He really enjoyed, you know, always actively adventuring, if 556 00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:12,880 you will, in his mind. He was a loved, you know, loved 557 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,760 good food, loved good music, loved, you know, a lot of a lot 558 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,679 of those things. He loved to love things just 559 00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:19,760 like I do. And then of course he was a 560 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:24,320 fantastic family man. He designed Katan because he 561 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,880 wanted to share a game that his family loved with him. 562 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,080 And he had, you know, he designed a lot of games 'cause 563 00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:37,040 he was a fabulous game designer. He won the Spiel Descharas award 564 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,400 4 times. You know, could have wanted 565 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,800 more. Perhaps he, you know, he'd been 566 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,239 a very accomplished designer by the time he got to designing 567 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,080 Katan. Everyone respected him as one of 568 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,159 the greatest design Dame designers in the world. 569 00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:55,239 But he you know, a lot of his games were games that his wife 570 00:34:55,239 --> 00:35:00,160 Claudia and his his kids didn't much enjoy or didn't enjoy as 571 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,400 much as he did. And so he his eldest son, Guido 572 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,280 is his younger kids, particularly his youngest son, 573 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,160 Benjamin. You know, it came from 574 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,360 different, you know, different, different angles, different 575 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,720 ages. His, you know, obvious Claudia 576 00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:20,120 had her own her own interests and and tastes. 577 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,720 So Klaus wanted to create a game that would appeal to all of 578 00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:24,680 them. And actually, it became kind of 579 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,000 a family experience. He designed this game and 580 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,280 actively play tested with the family, rigorously plays this 581 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,240 with the family and stripped it down from its original very kind 582 00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:37,720 of deep design to the Katan of today. 583 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,640 Anyway, basically speaks to the family man that he was the the 584 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,160 love of his family and he loved community. 585 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,240 He loved his his home and the Odenvald near Darmstadt. 586 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:54,120 I loved that area. Rosdorf was his his home and 587 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,960 village and so he loved loved that region. 588 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,720 He was very rooted in that and he did travel. 589 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,560 I didn't like to fly much, but you know, he did travel a good 590 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,360 deal. He loved, you know, Italy. 591 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,640 He loved wine country. He loved, you know, the 592 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,120 Mediterranean loved, loved, you know, the the adventure of 593 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,880 visiting islands. Just like you might think he 594 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,360 loved Iceland. He loved that those cultures of 595 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,880 the north as well, the seafarers of the north. 596 00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:27,280 So he, he did get out and venture about, but he always 597 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:32,120 returned home to a home that he had grown, grown up into, a 598 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,400 region that he'd grown up in, did most of his travelling in 599 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,040 his head. He was a very imaginative man. 600 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,280 So I loved all of that about him and I loved the fact that he was 601 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,320 a kind man. He, you know, he's loving 602 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,600 father, loving husband, an amazing marriage. 603 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,920 Claudia is incredible. Again, he recognized he couldn't 604 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,640 do what he did without her support, you know, without her 605 00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,480 partnership. And similarly, he brought, 606 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,920 nurtured his sons in the business, shared with them the, 607 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:09,360 the journey and, and, and then fortunately was able to, you 608 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,040 know, create a family business out of it. 609 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,240 And, and that business thrives today. 610 00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:18,880 They're the IP owner. Katanju BH owns the intellectual 611 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,480 property. That's what we call IP. 612 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,280 So anyway, it's a long winded way of saying, you know, got to 613 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:30,720 know Klaus starting in in January 1997. 614 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:36,880 I ended up going to his son's ghetto's wedding and and meeting 615 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,920 class again here for the first time in the new world in New 616 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,480 Orleans, where where ghetto and Emily got married in 1999. 617 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,160 I started, I went to Rossdorf and rode bikes with him for a 618 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:53,040 couple of weeks and hiked in the woods that spring of 99. 619 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:58,520 And we, we became closer and closer through time and, and, 620 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:04,400 and and became partners and, and you know, along of course with, 621 00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:06,760 with the other folks that work on Katan. 622 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,800 Again, this is the team thing right now. 623 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,560 I became here, you know, part we established through class. 624 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,240 I established partnerships with Cosmos, the German publisher, 625 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,320 localization, the the non-english publisher, Katan, 626 00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:28,960 the first publisher, and we became a family, an extended 627 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,160 family built around this wonderful brand. 628 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,240 I think I got that sense. So just when I was early for our 629 00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:39,600 meeting and going into your business lounge there waiting 630 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,480 for a meeting at Gen. Con, I really got a sense cuz 631 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,040 you could hear other meetings that were going on. 632 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,920 Even our, our meeting was you and I, we sat down with Kevin 633 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,040 from marketing and then Ron the COO came by and I, I felt like I 634 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,960 was, I felt like I was at a family table with a really big 635 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,280 family who love each other. Yeah, I really got that sense 636 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,440 Earlier you were talking about, you were talking a little bit 637 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,040 about the vision, right? You wanted to drop settlers, you 638 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,520 needed to go. You wanted Catan to be the 639 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:14,440 keyword and some sort of a logo and you fell upon the sunrise 640 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,240 that that icon. Tell us a little bit about that 641 00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:19,880 story. How did that get there, and how 642 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:25,760 much was Klaus involved in the transition to that logo? 643 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,040 Well, Klaus was actually, the sun was was there in the 644 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,160 beginning on the Original. It's always been on the box. 645 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:38,760 It was in fact, Klaus sharing that that emotion with his his 646 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,560 then partner Reiner Muller, who Reiner also contributed a great 647 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:47,040 deal to to the Katan that would be published in 1995. 648 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,800 Right. And with, you know, with his 649 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,080 family. Haas lives on the edge of a 650 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:54,800 forest and on the edge of a Meadow. 651 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,120 Beautiful nature there in the Odin evolved area. 652 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,520 And you know he. He loves nature. 653 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,360 He loves the idea of, of waking up and seeing the great sunrise 654 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,000 over the hills and wondering what's going on. 655 00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:12,680 You know, you know, over the hill there same way as I love, 656 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,040 you know, the, the song somewhere over the rainbow. 657 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,520 You know, I also that idea of what what's going on over the 658 00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:21,760 over the hill or over the rainbow. 659 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:30,320 So the, the sun for him was an expression of exploration, the 660 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,320 sunrise, You know, it's like when you wake up every day and 661 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,840 you explore the day, you, you want to adventure through the 662 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,520 day. And if you're out at sea looking 663 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:45,280 for a new home or on the land on a trail looking for a new home, 664 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,720 you know, that's a particularly moving, moving thing. 665 00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:55,200 You know, Klaus, you know, looked at that, that sun rising 666 00:40:55,200 --> 00:41:00,800 over the horizon and said, that's a great expression of, of 667 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,360 the, of the story That kind of inspired me to create this game, 668 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,720 which was the idea of going and going out with the, with the, 669 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,440 with the community of, of friends and family and finding a 670 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,320 new place to make a better life and a better world. 671 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,640 And that's really at the heart of Qatar. 672 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,240 Wow, that's beautiful. I don't know that I could put 673 00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:23,400 that any better. Yeah, thank you for that. 674 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,840 I'm also thinking about listening to you talk about 675 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,640 thinking about all the different iterations that I mean, just 676 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,160 that I'm aware of that I've played Struggle for Rome, right? 677 00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:36,080 It was Stone Age. Was it Stone Age of Catan where 678 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,200 you had to build Solomon's Temple? 679 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,240 No, that was that's you. It was a. 680 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,920 Little bit of a mash up there, but right, So we had we had 681 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:49,040 Settlers of the Stone Age. That was the English title and 682 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,440 it is now the dawn of humankind. It evolved quite a bit in 683 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,480 between those two titles. You know, at the core of the 684 00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:02,600 same game design Ohio involved in the dawn of the current dawn 685 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,240 of God. But that was a these are stand 686 00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:08,320 alone games, historical narrative, right, and or 687 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,720 prehistorical narrative. Then we had some other other 688 00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:16,720 games that have, you know, sort of a more the, you know, 689 00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:20,040 different types of themes, right way of science fiction of games, 690 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,040 the * fairs of Cortana being the greatest expression of yeah, 691 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,040 great standalone. We've also done some cross 692 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:31,960 branded storytelling with with Game of Thrones, The Game of 693 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,080 Thrones Guitar and and Star Trek guitar. 694 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,640 By far one of the best Star Trek board games that's out there. 695 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:41,720 Well, it's pretty. It was pretty fun. 696 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:48,480 And so Cortana is a dynamic collection of stories. 697 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:54,640 In fact, we like to think of it really as a as a lifestyle brand 698 00:42:54,640 --> 00:43:00,400 built around a great board game, the red box, the the Catan, the 699 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:05,400 game being the core of right nucleus of of the brand. 700 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:10,080 So what if you can say what's next for Catan? 701 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:14,000 Wow. I'm sorry, Katan. 702 00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:16,280 Katan. I said. 703 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:17,440 I was going to do better. Katan. 704 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,680 It's all good if you just buy a case of Katans every time you 705 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,280 mispronounce it. That would be so as far as 706 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,720 what's next, like I say, we're just getting started. 707 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,240 We've just brought out the new edition of Katan, the 6th 708 00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:35,760 edition. It is referred to more broadly 709 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:41,960 as the next edition because in, in Spain or in Slovenia or in 710 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,440 any of the, you know, 40 some markets where there's a 711 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,960 different localization of Catan, you know, it's a different 712 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,080 number of editions, right? So it happens to be the 6th 713 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,280 English language edition, but that new editions out. 714 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,440 It's, it's the best edition yet by far. 715 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,240 It's the edition that we like to think will conquer the world. 716 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,160 So that's just, you know, that's just getting out into the world. 717 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:10,680 And we debuted it in spring with focus on the core market. 718 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,200 It'll be only appearing in the mass market in a lot of areas 719 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,040 this, you know, later this summer or really in the autumn, 720 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,520 although you can find it, say for instance, in Barnes and 721 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,840 Noble or Amazon, of course. You say? 722 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,480 What would you say to folks who already have a copy? 723 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,600 And what? Why should I buy the newest 724 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,960 version? Well, it really is substantively 725 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:35,760 the best product we've ever built. 726 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,600 It's first of all, the box has been fully redesigned so that 727 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,560 you can accommodate the expansion, so you don't have to 728 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:45,640 get around a ton of boxes and things like that. 729 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,440 It's really, really. So it's a smart design. 730 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:50,440 It does not involve a lot of plastic. 731 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,280 We've tried to get rid of as much plastic as we can. 732 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:55,760 It doesn't have shrink wrap, for instance. 733 00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:02,120 It as a whole, you know, sensibility because it's more 734 00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:07,400 sustainable and it, you know, we, we have lovingly revisited 735 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:12,120 every single component to make sure that the supply chain 736 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:18,000 reflects that We also, the new edition has new or all new art. 737 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:23,480 It's the best art, you know, of course, art is subjective, very 738 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,400 subjective. So it's a different type of art. 739 00:45:25,720 --> 00:45:28,600 I would say it's the best art for the moment that that we've 740 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,360 ever had. Extremely vibrant art. 741 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:36,480 It's very beautiful art. It's also much more gamified art 742 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,600 there. There's a lot of storytelling in 743 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,880 the art itself. It feels more like Katan the the 744 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,160 game and the, you know, the hex. There's a hex theme in there. 745 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:52,120 There's the moving of of different resource, you know, 746 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:56,760 areas, different terrains in the, in the storytelling there. 747 00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:01,480 So that's really super fun. There's the the homage to Klaus, 748 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:05,600 the Easter Easter egg. This Klaus is central to the the 749 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:10,320 picture on the Catan box now, and that homage is extremely 750 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:14,000 important to us. The pieces are, you know, there 751 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:20,440 are wooden pieces are updated in every way where we can't, where 752 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:24,240 we felt they need an evolution in the expansions there there 753 00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:28,640 are a lot of really beautiful new wooden pieces. 754 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,480 And then they even in the core game, we beefed up the roads. 755 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,560 They're they're a little bit bigger so that you can pick them 756 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:39,560 up, play with them, manipulate them better so the game looks 757 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,960 better, it feels better. It's got a much higher level of 758 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:47,560 utility, but most importantly, the rules are fully evolved. 759 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:52,360 We thought after all these years that we had sort of perfected 760 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,880 the rules only to discover, no, we had not. 761 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,960 And so our, our team, our design team, you'd mentioned Ron, 762 00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:03,320 Megan, who's our CEO LED the design team. 763 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:07,200 The rest of our creative team, certainly you know, the Katanji 764 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,320 Major guys, Benny Toiberg, Gito Toiberg, Arnben and that team, 765 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:16,000 we all revisited the rules. And our internal team, the 766 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:21,520 actual folks, editorial team, Morgan Dontaville on the from 767 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,120 the creative, from the arts side, from the visualization 768 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,720 side as Sperry, who actually did the grunt work of kind of laying 769 00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:33,400 out all this game. And Ann Reynolds, who sort of 770 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,920 led the charge on rewriting rules, re editing things, though 771 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:43,400 they they did a an amazing job of deconstructing the whole rule 772 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,360 set and revisiting how you present rules, how you 773 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:49,600 communicate rules. And we ended up with a much 774 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,320 shorter, much better set of rules allows you to get into the 775 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:57,040 game much faster. Kind of reinvented our rules, 776 00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:59,240 even though the mechanics haven't fundamentally changed. 777 00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:02,800 They've, you know, clarified something, but such as a way 778 00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,920 better rule set and if you want to share the game with friends 779 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,160 and family, it's just a lot easier to play Katan that way. 780 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,400 So it's just a it's a it's a better thing. 781 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,840 Plus on top of it, I guess I'm going to look for those who are 782 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:19,600 lifting. I won't see it, but for those 783 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,920 who are viewing it, you know, you can see now that everything 784 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,240 fits together covered in a modular way. 785 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:31,040 The the expansions are set up to be half of the the box. 786 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:35,600 I mean, the 556 extensions are set up to be half the the boxes 787 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:41,360 that relate to the core game is a little deeper and thicker, a 788 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,680 little deeper box, I should say, than the expansion boxes so that 789 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,080 you can right away see that, okay, that game is at the core 790 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:51,800 of it all. So physically it's a, it's a, 791 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:56,920 it's a more beautiful and and usable and storable set. 792 00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,040 We did. This is a long digression from 793 00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,920 what's in the future. But right now that's what's 794 00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,120 that's, that's the most immediate future, right? 795 00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,000 That's the fierce right. You know, the urgent, urgent 796 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,680 now. Yeah, from here we're going to 797 00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:11,960 keep, you know, this, this is going to roll out. 798 00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:15,520 Then we're going to begin evolving all of the other 799 00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,960 products that are in the current portfolio to like the new 800 00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:20,920 branding. You know the new, we have a new 801 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,200 brand, we have the new iPod, which has been introduced here 802 00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:28,240 with this new edition. It is a fabulous graphic, you 803 00:49:28,240 --> 00:49:30,920 know, expression, a hex expression of what? 804 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,720 Of Qatar. You can now see it on my shirt 805 00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:35,960 here. So that's cool. 806 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,800 And so we'll do that with with those game games that are still 807 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:43,720 in the active portfolio. But we're going to be retiring 808 00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:46,440 some things, a few of the titles and we're going to be 809 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,080 introducing a whole new set of gateway products. 810 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:55,400 Some will be revisions of older gateway games like Ketan Junior, 811 00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,960 but there will be a whole host of other newer, newer designs, 812 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:04,120 particularly in the in say card game or whatever sense new card 813 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:08,080 games that will allow people to get into Katan in different 814 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,880 ways. As you know, to find a gateway 815 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,560 into the brand different ways and also just experience the 816 00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,000 game in different environments. You know, they'll be more 817 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,920 portable or more, you know, more durable if you happen to be in a 818 00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,360 bar or something. Not that you would ever drank 819 00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,520 and play this game. Oh no, we would never. 820 00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:29,360 So anyway, that's that's that's the immediate future. 821 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,760 But OK, like I said, we're just getting started. 822 00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,760 We're you know, we're not that far down the trail. 823 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:40,520 We got a long SO. Here's here's the here's the $50 824 00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,320 million question. It's been 30 years. 825 00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,040 Yeah. That is a lot of content. 826 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:52,840 It's a lot of content, yeah. What is, if anything, what is 827 00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:54,600 your favorite? Like, what is your favorite? 828 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,600 Whether it's a component, whether it's an expansion, 829 00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,440 whether it's an element of an expansion. 830 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:01,560 Oh, good. What's your? 831 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,760 Yeah, yeah. Well, it's, you know, that's 832 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,280 like asking me my favorite food or favorite music, and it varies 833 00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,960 from day-to-day. It real. 834 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:12,920 I mean, I, you know, don't mean to be evasive, but you know, 835 00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:14,880 the, the sure. It's true, though. 836 00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,280 I mean, I love playing Catan, just in his purest form. 837 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:25,920 But I, you know, I, I also enjoy diving deeper in different 838 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,880 directions depending on the group of people I'm with, right? 839 00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:33,280 If I wanted to dive deeper, you know, I might go and, and stay 840 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,320 in a sort of compact, portable environment. 841 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:39,640 I love cities and nights. It's a fantastic sort of 842 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:41,640 expansion into cultural development. 843 00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:45,280 I liked a lot of the thematic games that we just talked about. 844 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,640 The standalone thematic games. I I love I certainly love doing 845 00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,120 of humankind and and certainly love to explore space with 846 00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,920 Starfare is a lot of really interesting new mechanics in 847 00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:58,160 those games. They're particularly fun. 848 00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:02,440 They're very fluid and and that's that's fine. 849 00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:06,000 I love being able to roam around and a little bit more sometimes. 850 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:11,160 Settlers of America in that regard is my absolute favorites 851 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:15,560 because I love, well love building train tracks and and 852 00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:17,920 connecting dots, you know, that way. 853 00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:21,480 I think that's the the same impetus it makes ticket to ride, 854 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,360 for instance. So enjoy your experience. 855 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:27,280 But for Catan, it's always been about, you know, building, 856 00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:29,840 building connection points, right. 857 00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,200 And so the southern of America is particularly dynamic in that 858 00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,880 regard. It's it's crazy fun and wild as 859 00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,600 it accelerates through through the game. 860 00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:44,840 So but I like that game a lot. I you know, I'm an and guy, None 861 00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:46,520 or guy. Though, sure. 862 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:48,720 Yeah. Sure, I get that. 863 00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:50,800 I get that. Is there any? 864 00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,640 Well, I mean the answer is probably yes, but is there any 865 00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:58,120 possibility in the future of could we see a legacy game? 866 00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:02,480 I will say yes. Right. 867 00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:05,240 Yeah. I think that's always a 868 00:53:05,240 --> 00:53:08,880 possibility. It's it's a matter of when and 869 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:10,240 how. Sure. 870 00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:12,600 I think I started to share with you when we met at Gen. 871 00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:16,120 Con, my absolute favorite element in all of settlers was 872 00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:22,880 from Dasbuch, which is it's the flood tokens, so. 873 00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:24,920 Is. What the the flood or dot? 874 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:26,520 What was it? Is it Das Flute the. 875 00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:28,920 Flood but. Yeah, Das Flute, right? 876 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,000 Is that? Yeah, for those of you who don't 877 00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:35,680 know, because this is old. So whenever a hex is bordering 878 00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,160 AC zone and it's number rolls, you put a flood token on it. 879 00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:44,160 And when it gets 5 or 6 flood tokens, you replace it with 880 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,520 water to indicate that there's a flood. 881 00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,080 But you could build levees to protect it, which I totally 882 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,120 identify with having grown up in Louisiana. 883 00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,880 Yeah, on this, you know, so it was, it was crazy when you said 884 00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:58,400 they got mad they went to New Orleans. 885 00:53:58,400 --> 00:53:59,720 They were married in New Orleans. 886 00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,920 Yeah, man, that's like, that's like my backyard right there. 887 00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:05,200 They were. They were married at the 888 00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,600 Beauregard mansion in French court. 889 00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,080 Oh yeah, I know it well. I know it well. 890 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,960 Pretty core New Orleans there. Yep, absolutely. 891 00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:18,080 Well, I think you're close to achieving your your goal and 892 00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:22,560 your vision. Well, we're certainly we're even 893 00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:24,920 if we're just getting started, we're well on down the road. 894 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,120 Let's predict, yeah. Absolutely. 895 00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:31,680 I so I think the, I think the the demarcation line as it were, 896 00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,320 is within the hobby. Everyone's first game is Katan 897 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,840 and it's synonymous. I think when you get out of the 898 00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,600 hobby, it's still Monopoly and. Well, you know, it's interesting 899 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,760 that the hobby has grown to be part of the culture more and 900 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:49,800 more and, and, and I have to say, a lot of young people 901 00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:54,320 joyfully coming into the hobby. A lot of people come into the 902 00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,080 hobby every day. As it grows globally more and 903 00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,320 more though, there are a lot of people that come into the hobby 904 00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,160 and look at Katan as a 30 year old brand and they say wow, you 905 00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:07,720 know, that must be, you know, dated or archaic or whatever. 906 00:55:07,720 --> 00:55:11,480 Like Monopoly, because Monopoly is frankly A dated design, 907 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:13,040 terribly dated. Very much. 908 00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,400 People get knocked out of the game and you know, it's a 0 sum 909 00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:17,720 experience and all that other stuff. 910 00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:23,160 Katan is not like that. Katan actually is to, at this 911 00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:30,480 very moment as great a game, as preeminent a design as it was 912 00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,160 when Klaus first, you know, gave it to us in 1995. 913 00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:41,240 He it is a game that remains timeless, remains, you know, you 914 00:55:41,240 --> 00:55:46,680 know, as good as any game you know, there is even now. 915 00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:50,880 So it's it's sad but true that a lot of folks come into the in 916 00:55:51,240 --> 00:55:54,640 the gaming community, in the hobby and ignore it when in 917 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,600 fact, you know, they if they when they do play it, they they 918 00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:00,520 do say, Oh my gosh, you know, this old game is great. 919 00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:02,960 It's right. It's like discovering a 920 00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:08,440 brilliant old album or great old recipe for crab of, you know, 921 00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,560 crawfish Etouffee. Yes. 922 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:12,960 It's it's timeless, right? It is. 923 00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,600 Oh my God, you know, this is fantastic, even though it's a 924 00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,200 little bit older in terms of years, right? 925 00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,120 And those, and, and that's kind of good because, you know, you 926 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:26,560 think my, my, my grandmother, my God, my grandfather, they, they 927 00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,200 could be, it's still pretty cool sometimes. 928 00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:31,120 Exactly. They've got a lot of good 929 00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:36,240 stories to tell and they may not run quite as fast and, you know, 930 00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:38,400 but they, they're still as much fun. 931 00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:43,320 So the, the, the fact of the matter is it that, you know, the 932 00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:51,760 one of our big missions also in, in exploring communities and, 933 00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:56,640 and connecting people with Katan is, is connecting people within 934 00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:01,360 the game community who have not yet paid attention to it because 935 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,720 of its age. So sure, anyway, it's, it's a 936 00:57:04,720 --> 00:57:07,080 part of just cultural development. 937 00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,720 It's just normal. And we're excited about the fact 938 00:57:09,720 --> 00:57:13,720 that there are so many people that we might bring new joy to. 939 00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:19,320 I was prepared to before we met. I was prepared to ask you why 940 00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,320 you think it on is so sustainable. 941 00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,360 And like you know. As a core game. 942 00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,280 But I really feel like anyone who's listened to this 943 00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:28,840 conversation, they get it, you know? 944 00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:31,080 Well, I hope so. I hope so. 945 00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:33,240 I. So I didn't have to ask because 946 00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:35,600 I felt like you answered it and I was like, no, I. 947 00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,520 Do have AI do have a thought about that because you know, we 948 00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:44,040 some years ago we were asked we we ended up a bunch of us 949 00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:49,720 working to Co design the the game design merit badge for 950 00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:53,760 scouting. And that was a joyful project 951 00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:59,880 because I got to connect, you know, a lot of my my favorite 952 00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:05,280 things in life, Katan and and scouting one at one shot and 953 00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:09,280 also introduce a lot of young people to to games and and to 954 00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:13,480 what makes games special. So Katan actually ended up being 955 00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:17,280 central to that story because Katan does embody what we like 956 00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:22,840 to think are all of the top 11 features in a in a great game of 957 00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:25,680 the first two instantly are fun. That's why it's not just 10. 958 00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:29,040 And of course, you know it dials up to 11. 959 00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:31,120 It does. Yeah, always. 960 00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:34,440 So we Yeah. But and it's hard, you know, 961 00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,280 it's, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's time. 962 00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:40,600 It's, it's temporarily short. It's, you know, it's not a 963 00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:42,440 particularly long game. It's very excessive. 964 00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:48,400 It's very time efficient. It's it's very social, extremely 965 00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:52,120 social that allows you to interact with the other players. 966 00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,040 It's highly interactive, which means it's highly you can 967 00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:57,680 interact with the components of the game, with the game system, 968 00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,520 right ways, right. And that's really, really good. 969 00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:06,520 It has immense replay value, most of all that. 970 00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:09,360 And that's because there are many ways to victory, many paths 971 00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:11,880 to victory. Every board is different. 972 00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,920 Every time you sit down and interact with Cortana, it's a 973 00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:18,560 different island with different terrain and different places 974 00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:22,560 with different probabilities of production and all that stuff. 975 00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:28,320 So it is a fresh experience. It's a surprising experience 976 00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:32,880 when you sit down and therefore it, you know, it is more than 977 00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:37,000 any other game I've ever met, you know, a, a game I want to 978 00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:39,760 play and play again. So it's, it's got incredible 979 00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:41,720 replay back. You know, it's certainly 980 00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:44,680 affordable. You know, these other things. 981 00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:47,720 It has an interesting bit of serendipity. 982 00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:52,080 It's not deterministic right? The the best best strategist or 983 00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:54,760 the best mathematician doesn't always win much. 984 00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:58,440 Experienced gamer doesn't always win because they're a dice and 985 00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:01,360 that adds a certain bit of serendipity to the game. 986 01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:05,160 So now that's cool. It is not a 0 sum game 987 01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:08,440 experience. Everyone has shares joy through 988 01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:10,560 the whole game. You're in the game all the way 989 01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,040 to the end and you may not win, but. 990 01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:17,080 You have fun, you build something together, right? 991 01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:19,920 You're always, you're always are all building something. 992 01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:22,680 You're always making something, always accomplishing something. 993 01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:26,560 So it has all of those things. And, and there are many more 994 01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:29,000 little victories and little defeats in Qatan. 995 01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:32,240 So in a sense it's a positive game. 996 01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:37,520 So yeah, that that tells you it's got special sauce whether 997 01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:39,800 you knew it or not. That's right. 998 01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:43,080 That's right. So, well, Pete, again, thank you 999 01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:45,760 so much guys. If you have never experienced 1000 01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:49,040 the world of Catan, there's a 6th edition coming out soon in 1001 01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:51,560 English that you should be on the lookout for. 1002 01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:54,560 If not, and you still have a copy as I'm thinking about it 1003 01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:57,960 right now, we should that should hit the table this weekend and 1004 01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:01,600 revisit this beautiful world that has brought us all together 1005 01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:05,600 and not only nurtured but kind of sparked our community. 1006 01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:08,400 So thank you again, Pete. Fair enough. 1007 01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:10,800 Thank you guys. Make sure to hit the like and 1008 01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,240 subscribe. Make sure to hit that like and 1009 01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:16,240 subscribe button guys. And remember, be kind to each 1010 01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:17,800 other and play more games.