1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,040 Welcome to episode 130, where neoprene dreams of card fueled 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:07,280 adventures come to life. In today's episode we're going 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,600 to reveal the story behind Game Head Games, a company that 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,240 started by laying the foundation, literally, with 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,560 stunning high quality play mats and is now leveling up into the 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,440 realm of original board games. We're going to talk about 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,320 vision, innovation, and what it's like to shift from 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,120 supporting the game to creating the game. 9 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,560 We're going to trace their journey from accessories to game 10 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:33,800 design. And we're going to chat with 11 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,080 their new creative director, Paul Solomon, a well known name 12 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,240 in the tabletop community. Paul joins me today to share his 13 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,200 vision for game heads future, what it means to shift from 14 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,360 supporting gameplay to actually creating, and how the company 15 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:54,160 plans to nurture a unique community focused on gaming as a 16 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,480 shared social activity. This is an adventure you won't 17 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,200 want to miss, so thanks for joining Paul. 18 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:02,280 Morning. How are you? 19 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,440 Good morning, PJ, I am doing great. 20 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,200 This is great to finally get to do this with you. 21 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,760 We met at Origins and kind of scheduled this for an early 22 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:13,840 morning. That's right, we put it real 23 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:15,680 smart. For those listening at home, it 24 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:18,520 is 7:00 AM. That's right. 25 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:20,680 That is right. Crazy. 26 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:22,720 But so I did learn an interesting thing is that you're 27 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:24,520 just in Saint Louis. I'm in Springfield. 28 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,120 We're like an hour away from each other so. 29 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,760 Very near to each other. And I think I told you this the 30 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,280 other day, but the I designed Honey Buzz and when I was in 31 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,520 development with Elf Creek for that, there's they were HQ in 32 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:38,360 Champaign, IL and I'm in Saint Louis. 33 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,480 So Springfield was sort of like a let's meet in the middle. 34 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,200 I think we met there like every two or three weeks, maybe a 35 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,240 month for, I don't know, a there are more playing iterations and 36 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:49,680 stuff. So yeah, I've been to been to 37 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,440 Springfield a lot of times. Also stopped at that old Steak 38 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:54,800 and Shake that was there many, many times. 39 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,320 It was kind of the perfect stop as I shot up 55. 40 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,320 Which is just down the street from where I live. 41 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,560 So I love that. And at Origins, when talking 42 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,000 about our meeting, I love telling that story to all my 43 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:07,240 friends. Oh, yeah, yeah. 44 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,120 Honey Buzz was birthed in my town. 45 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:12,520 That's right. And I'll tell you one more Steak 46 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,520 and Shake factoid. I used to be so into Steak and 47 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,280 Shake. First off, I had a girlfriend 48 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,560 who worked at Steak and Shake. And secondly, I dressed up as a 49 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,920 Steak and Shake employee for Halloween one year and I had, 50 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,480 she got me a name tag and I had the hat and the apron and 51 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,080 everything. But they, they barely even, I 52 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,200 don't think they don't even have servers at Steak and Shake 53 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:32,680 anymore. So it's a, it's a very different 54 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,160 place. Yeah, very, very different. 55 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,800 So that's amazing. So, So tell me Pulse, tell me a 56 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,680 little bit about how you partnered with you came like 57 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:47,360 where the iteration whose idea was it to go create gamehead 58 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,680 games? So some background here, 59 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,880 Gamehead Games. Gamehead is owned by a guy named 60 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:58,600 Alan Hochman, who is the owner of Gamer Mats, creator of all 61 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,480 these things and pushes these initiatives. 62 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:05,600 But his story begins 33 years ago, I think, starting a retail 63 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,440 shop called Pastimes, which still exists in the Chicagoland 64 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,480 area. And along along the way they 65 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,200 started doing events, tournaments, Magic tournaments. 66 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,320 And now they are sort of the premier hoster of like Magic 67 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,000 tournaments. So at Gen. 68 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,960 Con, I believe they're doing all of the Magic tournaments, all of 69 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,400 the Lor Kana tournaments. So that's a big part of the 70 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,960 business is running all the past time stuff. 71 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,360 They do Magic cons, they just working all the time doing those 72 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,080 kind of things. And at some point he figured out 73 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:40,320 like what would it take to make play mats here in the US and 74 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,560 ended up buying some machinery and has it doesn't square foot 75 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,480 warehouse and production facility in Chicago where they, 76 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,920 they buy neoprene and rubber, you know, from China, but they 77 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,160 print it all here in Chicago. And I checked out that facility. 78 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,600 It's very cool. And they have a crew of folks 79 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:58,840 that have been working there a long time, you know, making 80 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:03,000 playmats by hand every day. They have a custom minimum order 81 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,040 of 1, so you can just you know, you want one playmat, you can do 82 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:08,760 it. Their their main competitor for 83 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,080 those that would probably know the name was Inked. 84 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:12,160 Who made Playmats. Sure. 85 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,000 Yeah. Inked I think just went out of 86 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,360 business. So if you needed to get Playmat 87 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,600 Gamer mats.com, it's the place to go. 88 00:04:18,959 --> 00:04:21,760 We have a gamer mat. We have a gamer mat on our 89 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,840 dining room table permanently set up that we ordered like some 90 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,120 because it's like large enough in our dining room. 91 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:27,840 Yeah. Yeah. 92 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,000 And you know, whenever we're serving food, we just kind of 93 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,280 throw a tablecloth over top. Totally, totally. 94 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:34,160 Yeah. What? 95 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,040 What's on there? Is it just black or there's like 96 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,320 a design? So we were looking for a solid 97 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,760 color and the closest they had on their website, it's like, 98 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,720 it's like a grass. It's like a grass field. 99 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:46,920 Nice. We play everything on that. 100 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,720 Sure. Of course, yeah, awesome. 101 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:53,040 So I love so so then, you know, recently I think kind of 102 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,640 inspired by what All Play did, shifting from 103 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,720 boardgametables.com to become All Play and also just 104 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:01,760 recognizing some of what's been success. 105 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,040 He just, you know, wanted to push in and see if we could make 106 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,640 games. And his, his concept was let's 107 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:12,360 make six games all at once and put them out in this retail kit 108 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,520 so that we're not just saying like, here's a game game that we 109 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:17,560 think is good and we want you to buy it, right? 110 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,760 Which is what everyone on Kickstarter is saying, right? 111 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,480 Yep, They're saying here's this game that we think is good and 112 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,680 we hope you'll buy it. And if you're if you're, you 113 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,440 know, if I had done that with honey buzz and taking it to 114 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,880 stores, and it would have been probably very hard sell to be 115 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,720 like, here's a game, it's good. But, but when you come with a, a 116 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:39,160 brand that looks a certain way and we have these display kits 117 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,920 that we've built, it presents to the retailer and to the customer 118 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,320 that like there's something substantial here, there's 119 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,080 something that makes sense, there's something you can depend 120 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:49,760 on, There's some quality behind it. 121 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,360 So that was the that was the original goal. 122 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:59,680 He hired me in October of 2024, which is not that long ago. 123 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:01,080 Not long. Ago at all. 124 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,920 In fact, that's when we launched our YouTube channel, so you and 125 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,320 I were making big changes in our lives. 126 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,000 Professional Lives 100. And 30 episodes and that time is 127 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,800 crazy. So yeah, he basically put in 128 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:18,160 front of me, I want to make six games and release some kind of, 129 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,400 you know, he said kind of how long is it going to take? 130 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,360 And I came from a place where it takes a long time. 131 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,600 And, and he said, really I want to work on like 12 games and 132 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,640 release 6 and then maybe release another six and then we'll do 133 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:33,600 like a larger size game and stuff. 134 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,440 So that was really the start and it's been a ton of a ton of a 135 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,600 ton of work since then. Oh, that's amazing. 136 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,440 That's incredible. So he approached you, right? 137 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,840 Well, no, actually. So I was head of development at 138 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,120 Elf Creek for about two years. I was full time teacher for 139 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:55,200 something like 16 years. Time has eluded me now but a 140 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,520 long time. And then through the success of 141 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,040 Honey Buzz and all kinds of things I shifted to part time. 142 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:07,520 So I was teaching three classes instead of five, then working 20 143 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,720 hours a week on Elf Creek products, Honey Buzz Expansions 144 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,560 and Santa's Workshop and watches and clocks of Hickory Ducks and 145 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,240 all these other products for about two years. 146 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,000 But Elf Creek ran into significant financial trouble, 147 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,480 to put it mildly. So, you know, I have a family. 148 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,840 I have to have a job and make money to pay bills and such. 149 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:32,240 So I just, I started looking for other work and I saw their 150 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,280 listing whatever upon whatever, you know, website we used to 151 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,320 find jobs, jobs these days, but it said like, you know, you have 152 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,240 to be local to Chicago. So I didn't even, I didn't even 153 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,080 apply it. I never heard of that before 154 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,960 because they're just rebranded. But then my buddy Derek 155 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,880 Funkhouser got a job at Lucky Duck. 156 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,000 He was at Wise Wizard Games doing development. 157 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,640 And then he left there and worked at this job right away 158 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:59,400 from Lucky Duck. And I said, awesome dude, you 159 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,120 know, congratulations, now find me a job. 160 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,720 And he said, well, you should talk to this guy Alan. 161 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,400 He's doing this thing at Game Head. 162 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:09,120 So he basically, he set us up. And then Alan and I had a number 163 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,600 of conversations about, you know, frankly, Alan didn't know 164 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,160 all that much about the game industry. 165 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,320 OK. From a development standpoint, I 166 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,920 don't think he would consider himself like a board gamer in 167 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:22,240 the same way that you and I would. 168 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:27,720 OK, so I really, we had to sort of get on the same page about 169 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,320 what kind of games we're making and, and what our goals were. 170 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:36,039 And I appreciate that he took a lot of a lot of, you know, 171 00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:39,039 thought and input for me because there's a lot of games I just 172 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:40,640 don't want to make, you know what I mean? 173 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:44,600 And I'm, I'm really thankful that I'm creative director and 174 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,360 basically I'm the first hire for the, for the game side. 175 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,520 So I've been able to, I've had the leeway to really pick and 176 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,160 choose exactly the projects I want to work on and pick what 177 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,440 they look like. And that's been super, super, 178 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,560 super cool. So it's interesting that Alan 179 00:08:58,560 --> 00:09:02,320 brings a perspective to the table that I would think would 180 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,880 be helpful to you, especially as creative director now, right, 181 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:08,320 there's that partnership. Percent. 182 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,240 Yeah. So that partnership's been 183 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,000 really smooth, you found? Yeah. 184 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:16,360 So, so Alan is incredibly busy with his, you know, 3 or 4 185 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,080 different businesses. So we, we only meet about once, 186 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,120 maybe twice a week. But we have kind of, you know, 187 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,560 we have some structures in place about how things would work. 188 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,720 And in the first wave of six games, we so I built really in 189 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,520 depth project sheets for each project that include, you know, 190 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:38,240 all all of the costs associated. And then you just tons of stuff 191 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,160 that freight costs and how the box size is going to impact how 192 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,400 many fit in a carton and how many fit, how many cartoons fit 193 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:49,600 on a pallet and how many pallets fit in a in a 22, a 20 foot or 194 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,600 40 foot or whatever it is container to get all the way 195 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,400 down to like the royalties and what the total landed cost is. 196 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:58,880 And then if we sell it into district. 197 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:03,200 So ton of ton of numbers so that we could estimate break even 198 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,640 point and the return on investment and stuff. 199 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,200 And it was because of all that work that we could kind of like 200 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,680 he could feel confident enough to be like, let's let's go 201 00:10:11,680 --> 00:10:13,200 forward. So that was great. 202 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,040 And you know, we've had some conversations about making some 203 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,960 tweaks in the future. We invested a lot in art in this 204 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,440 first round, which which I felt was really important to grab the 205 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,400 gamer market. It's less important for some 206 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,560 sorts of like mass market style games. 207 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,760 So you know, each project you got to pick the right thing for 208 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:34,800 that project. But yeah, he's been great to 209 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:39,320 work with and the the main value I think he adds to what we're 210 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,560 doing apart from all the money, is he has connections into a ton 211 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:45,840 of retail because he owns a retail shop. 212 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,520 He was on the board of Gamma. OK. 213 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,600 He, you know, has friends, old friends and distribution and 214 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,400 stuff. So right away we're going to be 215 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,520 set up to sell into ACD and PhD distribution, I think. 216 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,640 That's great. Which is exciting and and his 217 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,640 whole it was whole his whole idea also to build this retailer 218 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,360 kit which is available to your FLGS right now. 219 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,240 Our games are all 20 bucks and the retail kit comes with four 220 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,400 of each game. We'll sell them to you at 50% 221 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:20,360 and then there's a display kit which is, you know it's fold up 222 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,160 display. It comes with 12 games in it. 223 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,080 You take them out and build this little step thing in there and 224 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,520 then they kind of tear up like a point games display or something 225 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,960 like that. So you can see all 12 and then 226 00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:36,920 also some branding like it says 5 minute, 5 minute setup, 5 227 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:38,840 minutes each, 20 to 40 minute play. 228 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,560 That's true for all the games and you know, party games, 229 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:45,640 casual games, thinking games. And on the back for if you keep 230 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,680 it on your countertop, the seller, the clerk can see 231 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:52,880 information about all the games. And so they can kind of the idea 232 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,880 was to make it as easy as possible for a retailer to know 233 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,640 what the products are and convert the products to sales. 234 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,120 So you know that that kind of like business insight is super, 235 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,360 super useful. Yep, so in my intro to the 236 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,000 episode I had said and I stole it straight from game heads 237 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,000 website. I know I caught some of that. 238 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,200 You caught it. You, your, your part of your 239 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:19,280 vision is that gaming is a shared social activity. 240 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,720 So I'm wondering, how do you see not just the six games you have 241 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,600 coming out, but the future of Game Head? 242 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,680 How is it going to fit in nurturing this sense of 243 00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:31,120 community and promoting that shared experience? 244 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,240 Yep. So here's what I'll say first 245 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,360 about about it. So I'm also a host on the 246 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,640 Decision Space podcast and we talk about all kinds of like 247 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,680 preferences and differences. I mean one of my good buddies, 248 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:45,040 Pete Wissinger, who was Co developer on one of these games, 249 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,680 he and I have very different tastes about games, but we play 250 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:48,760 together. OK. 251 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,800 We play together every Monday. So the game line, the game lines 252 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,880 sort of reach out broadly to try to grab a lot of folks and 253 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,200 hopefully bring new folks into the into the, you know, gaming 254 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,400 world. So our party line especially is 255 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:08,960 focused on what most people, you know, non gamers would consider 256 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,280 a social activity, which is let's get together, let's laugh. 257 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,920 Let's you know, a lot of people need to be able to play and it's 258 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,440 sort of structures socializing in a goofy, fun way, which is I 259 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,160 think what first class letters is a little thinkier than that. 260 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,280 But most people think of their social, social interactions as 261 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:32,320 like fun and like probably and kind of maybe loud or something. 262 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:33,920 So that's kind of what's happening there. 263 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:38,600 But for gamers, let's just say hobby gamers, you, me, probably 264 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,240 everybody listening to this podcast. 265 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,000 Right. We often are looking for more 266 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,200 strategy. We're looking for, you know, 267 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,120 when we say a shared experience, that shared experience might 268 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,120 happen in the center of the table where there is some 269 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,000 central board that we're all interacting with or some shared 270 00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:59,800 economy that we're interacting with. 271 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,920 So for those games, for the for the thinky line, the shared 272 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,800 experience is, is much more interactive and strategic. 273 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,600 So a game like Trinket Trove, pardon me, is Trinket Trove's a 274 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,840 set collection card game. It's a bit like money from 275 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,920 Reiner Kinitzia, which all players published. 276 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,720 You have a hand of cards and some are revealed in the middle 277 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,520 that you'd like to collect, but you need to bid for turn order 278 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,800 to draft those things. The things you bid with are 279 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,720 cards already in your hand, and those cards also get claimed by 280 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,720 people. So there is a closed economy 281 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,280 where every card that's in people's hands will stay in 282 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,520 people's hands, but exchange hands and additional cards come 283 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,080 into the economy. And so, you know, that's a 284 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,320 shared experience that's very different from something like 285 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,560 Foolish Fool where anybody can play Foolish Fool and 286 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:50,240 immediately understand what it is. 287 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,360 And if they can read, they can play and they will almost 288 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,520 certainly laugh. But Trinket Trove ISM is a very 289 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:57,120 different kind of strategic thing. 290 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,440 It's not actually very heavy at all, but that's the sort of 291 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,360 thing we look for when we think of a shared gaming experience. 292 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:08,440 And our third line is the casual games, which are essentially for 293 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,680 just about anybody. They're a little they're going 294 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,880 to be a little closer to the thinking and that they're, you 295 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,160 know, they have it's like there might be some really light trick 296 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,560 taking or some secret bidding, but they also are pretty rules 297 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,440 light. They also can be fairly strategy 298 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,120 light and a little random. They can accommodate chaos. 299 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,520 And that's really because the sort of what I would call the 300 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:36,600 casual gamer who frankly might be in the 50% of people at Gen. 301 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,160 Con that are not there to play hobby board games. 302 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,320 They just see a game that's cute and they want to try it and they 303 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,800 want to have fun. And so if we can make a game 304 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,080 that's fun for those kind of people too, then the whole 305 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,920 community gets wider, right? And we can bring more kinds of 306 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,960 people in. I mean, I, you know, I know you 307 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,280 just saw that, that interview with Drew Denning, but I, I do 308 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,800 not game head keep everyone is welcome to come in and be a game 309 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,160 head. And we've we've got games for 310 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:04,320 everybody. I love that. 311 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,280 So I want to, I want to talk about, I want to talk about game 312 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,120 design, but I'm thinking about Trinketrove because you taught 313 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,120 it to me in like 5 minutes, just like you said. 314 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,480 So you were true to your word. It was easy to learn. 315 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,320 While you were teaching it and we were playing, I was thinking 316 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:19,840 about some of my family back home. 317 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,040 I was thinking about some friends who aren't gamers. 318 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,840 I was like they could get this, but to your point, there is 319 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,640 there was deep and rich enough strategy as a hobby gamer that 320 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,920 it really kept me interested and I wanted to share this game and 321 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,360 look forward to getting a copy and sharing it with my family. 322 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:41,240 So how do you as a designer, how do you achieve that, right? 323 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,400 Like how do you how do you bring that balance together? 324 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,720 Is there an overarching theology? 325 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:48,760 It's not the. Wrong word. 326 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,560 It's the one that comes in theology in your game design 327 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,720 that you managed to achieve that balance. 328 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:59,800 Yeah, that's a good question. So I think to be broadly 329 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,280 accessible in general for game design, this is true. 330 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:04,960 Really in any game design, I should say. 331 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:10,839 You have to have the clearest, cleanest version of the idea so 332 00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:15,800 that the game communicates itself to the gamer very easily 333 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,319 and can be taught easily and can be understood easily. 334 00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:22,800 It has language that's clear and doesn't interfere with itself. 335 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,880 It has player aids, obviously, you know, so there's just in 336 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:30,160 general you have to have the best possible user interface and 337 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,000 iconography and a rule book that really works, all that kind of 338 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,480 stuff to create a good user experience. 339 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,360 But you know, you can take Teramistica as far as you can 340 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:44,480 take it with all of those things, and it's still not going 341 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,120 to be for my dad, right? Right. 342 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:53,840 So I think that when you look at and, and I should say, no board 343 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:59,600 Game Geek is such a teeny tiny microcosm, not a microcosm, such 344 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:04,760 a teeny, teeny micro set subset of the hobby world of the board 345 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,680 gaming world. It's insane and laughable. 346 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,440 I mean PGG is a huge deal. It is. 347 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,480 But we know that it skews very heavy, the popular games that 348 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,880 are very heavy, right? And there are games that come 349 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:24,760 out and sell a million copies that will have terrible BGG 350 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:28,800 reviews because it's just not who the gamers are, you know 351 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,440 what I mean? They're sure they're they're a 352 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,680 certain kind of gamer there. But more games sell at Target 353 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,560 then get rated on BGG, obviously, right? 354 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,640 I mean it, you know what I mean? And if we looked at something 355 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:45,480 like Explode kittens on BGG, what would your guess be for 356 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:49,080 what the BGG Exploding Kittens average rating is 0? 357 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,080 Man, I don't know. I couldn't even begin begin to 358 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:53,320 think. Throw one out there. 359 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,640 Yeah, what a what? Like a 22.3 or something like 360 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:57,960 that. That would be extremely low. 361 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,400 This is a 5.8, but that's very low also. 362 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:02,600 But here's what you need to know. 363 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,480 The Exploding Kittens Kickstarter campaign had about 364 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:13,040 230 million backers. 200. And 30 million backers. 365 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,320 And right now, the games that we have on people's top 10 lists 366 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,720 have maybe they had 10,000 backers, right? 367 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,200 So it's a very different world when you think about who out 368 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,240 there is playing games and what makes that game good for them. 369 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,680 So I think there's a, there's a, and my, my podcast to some 370 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,960 extent serves this. There's an echo Chamber of we 371 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,560 like the things we like and we get around with the people that 372 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,480 like the things that we like. And we talk to each other about 373 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,360 what we think is good or what we think is bad or why, you know, 374 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,600 but that's just for us. And to make something more 375 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,600 broadly accessible, you have to think outside yourself. 376 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,000 You know, it's I'm, I'm as a game designer, when I made Honey 377 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,360 Buzz or I made Stamp Swap or I made whatever, I made a game 378 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:02,360 that I would like, that I wanted to play, that I wanted to see in 379 00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:04,320 the world that I thought deserved to exist. 380 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,400 But as a publisher, it's completely different. 381 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,760 And you know, you're not making games for yourself. 382 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,080 Like I said, I, I don't, there's lots of games I don't want to 383 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,200 make because I just not interested in them. 384 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,960 I'm probably the wrong person to make them, but I'm not just 385 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,080 thinking about what I like. And I am thinking about not just 386 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:21,400 sales because we have to make money. 387 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,640 But sales, because that's more people are going to like your 388 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,280 thing and it's going to have a greater impact on people's 389 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,520 lives. That is, that's just brilliant. 390 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,120 That's well said. Yeah. 391 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:37,400 So let me ask, how do you, how have you experienced recently? 392 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,720 We can't get away with not talking about it. 393 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,400 So you're about to put out this line of games. 394 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,600 You just created this new this new entity partnership and we 395 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,000 have a trade war going on. Yeah. 396 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,280 How is navigating that What? What has that been like and 397 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,560 where have you found success? Sure. 398 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,600 Our, like I talked about those spreadsheets, everything in 399 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:05,760 those spreadsheets from day one was built on a $20 MSRP. 400 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,440 And so we kind of reverse engineered that and talked to 401 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:15,200 all Play who has a $20 MSRP and figured out what our landed 402 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,320 costs need to be, production costs, art costs, etcetera to 403 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,400 get profitable on like a $5000 print run or 5000 print run 404 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,760 units, which is frankly it's a lot of a lot of games for a 405 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,040 starting company. And people in the industry 406 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,160 sometimes talk about your multiplier from landed cost to 407 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,960 MSRP, which is 5 or 6 is what we did at Off Creek. 408 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:37,720 And the margins are a little tight. 409 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:42,520 So we, excuse me, we pushed that a little higher to try to have 410 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,800 room. So then once the when the 411 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,640 tariffs were announced at wherever they started initially, 412 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:57,360 maybe it was 50%, we were going to raise our prices to 25, which 413 00:21:57,360 --> 00:21:59,400 I think the games could be 25 anyway. 414 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,800 There were some sort of odd reasons why we didn't want to do 415 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,400 it, you know, apart from more higher prices, less sales, 416 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,840 right? So that 50% scared us. 417 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,640 And then they were 100%. And we were like, you know, OK, 418 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,800 wow, that's really bad. And then they were, you know, 419 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,480 whatever it was, 145%. Something like that, yeah. 420 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:26,720 And that was a huge problem. I mean, we had costs that were, 421 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,560 you know, they were going to be a dollar and now they're 250. 422 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:34,560 And yeah, that was going to be really, really crazy devastating 423 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,000 to the global economy and to board gaming. 424 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,880 I did. I mean, one thing to say is that 425 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,520 the night that that was announced, the 1:45, you know, 426 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,000 there was a lot of panic and Alan, Alan really thought like, 427 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,160 we're just we're just going to stop the games we're going to. 428 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,800 We've paid some money, but let's just stop right there and not go 429 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,160 forward and just cut the risk and and luckily cooler heads 430 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:57,800 prevailed and we did push forward. 431 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:03,640 But yeah, we actually air freighted in about 300 copies or 432 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:09,520 something of our games and those came across at 145%. 433 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,560 So, you know, that really hurt as a bunch of money. 434 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:20,240 And then luckily they came down. So we, we freighted in on ocean 435 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,320 freight. We brought in I think about 436 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,960 44,000 units and those came in at 30%. 437 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:31,120 Now that's still like $30,000 that we did not anticipate 438 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:33,800 spending. So it's super sucks, right? 439 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,440 That's just money that goes to the US government from our 440 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,280 company and makes it a little harder for us. 441 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,600 And so our choices were we had to raise prices or make less 442 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,440 money. And so we decided to make less 443 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,840 money and you know, stay at $2020.00. 444 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,720 And then if we release a mid game, mid sized game, it'll be 445 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,280 $30 and big box be 40. That's kind of our plan. 446 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:58,640 We thought we could do 25, but let's try to stay at 20 and 447 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,160 hopefully, you know, hopefully the market comes our way 448 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,120 towards, you know, if we can stay at $20, maybe it makes us 449 00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:08,920 more competitive and maybe people will shift towards 450 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,520 smaller box games. So, you know, there's been so, 451 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,720 so, so much volatility that it's been impossible to actually 452 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,320 estimate anything. What I will say is that I did, I 453 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,760 had conversations with US printing facilities and 454 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,960 manufacturers and gots got some quotes and stuff. 455 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,520 And I know that they had a million quotes to do, you know, 456 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,040 when tariffs were so high. Of course, all of that demand 457 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,360 has been undercut by dramatically sweeping changes to 458 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:41,360 the, to the tariffs. But you know, a game that's 459 00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:51,240 $1.50 to make in China is $5 in the US, You know, that's three 460 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,840 100% or more. So if we wanted the same profit 461 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,720 margin, we'd have to sell them at $60.00. 462 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:58,360 We're not. Obviously we're not going to do 463 00:24:58,360 --> 00:25:00,400 that. And I just want to say, like, I 464 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,040 work with Game Land in China. I've worked with Rawstone and 465 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,000 Panda, and I've talked about E Star and all kinds of people. 466 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,040 I love the people that I work with China and I have just no 467 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,120 reason to think that I shouldn't be doing with business with 468 00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:15,120 them. I love Rainbow Yang and Judy and 469 00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:17,640 Alfred at Game Land. All these people are awesome. 470 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,280 And so I'm glad that we can continue to keep working with 471 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:22,840 them. Well, thank you for sharing 472 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:24,240 that. I think that's, I think that's 473 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,440 an element of this story that a lot of just gamers, hobbyist 474 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,680 gamers we miss. That is why do these publishers 475 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,280 keep working with China, and it's because of the 476 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,280 relationships. Absolutely. 477 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,400 Yeah, absolutely. These guys rock. 478 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,080 They're so good at their job. They're incredibly nice and 479 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,400 responsible, you know, I mean, they just want to do good 480 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,720 business with us the same way we want to do good business with 481 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,200 them. And I would have the same 482 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,040 interactions with them if they were in Springfield, IL, as I do 483 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,160 in Ningbo, China. You know, it's just that we 484 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:55,960 could all meet on Central time. Right. 485 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,200 Which is so much easier I gotta say. 486 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,920 That I would take it. This is great that like we're in 487 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,480 the same time zone because gosh, time zones, man. 488 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,000 We're still up at 7:00 AM, which is what I would be doing if I 489 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,760 wanted to meet with, you know, whoever in China or Britain or 490 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:10,400 wherever. Yeah. 491 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,120 Yeah, exactly. So you had mentioned early on in 492 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:17,920 your early conversations with Alan, 12 games released 6. 493 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,600 I know that you're releasing 6, so did you make 12 and you're 494 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,120 going to release 6 and you've got another six in the pocket 495 00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:27,560 or? Yeah, so, so when I was signed, 496 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,320 we had we had one signed game. When I came on we had one signed 497 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,640 game which was called Queen of Horde and became Trinket Trove. 498 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,080 OK. There were two games that they 499 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,960 were in discussions about but actually didn't have a contract 500 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,160 on. One I kind of said I didn't want 501 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,720 to work on right then or maybe on a later line. 502 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,320 The other one was re implementation of the Goude Tama 503 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,960 card game, which I did that design. 504 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,360 The new design became Corgi Pile Up, which I designed with Steve 505 00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:56,000 Ellis. And then outside of that there 506 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,280 are two games that are sub licenses from where we have 507 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,880 Foolish Fools from Keef Edition in France. 508 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,440 That's their game Foo Foo Foo and its expansion Foo Foo means 509 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,360 crazy, crazy, crazy. And then Venture Angels is a sub 510 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:12,320 license from Mandu games in Korea who Mandu does many, many 511 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,480 amazing games. This one is flying under the 512 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,760 radar, but it's so good. And then signed to more games 513 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,680 original title. So we've signed first class 514 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,440 letters from Peter C Hayward, a word game rolling right word 515 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,000 game. And then we signed no loose ends 516 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,960 from Taiki Shinzawa, an incredible trick taking game 517 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,080 from 2024 that released only in Japan. 518 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,120 So that was the first wave. Get those six together and of 519 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:38,200 course along the way, I mean I had huge, huge lists of 520 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,880 potential games and I see I have to see at least I'm like it's 521 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:46,160 got to be a hundred 250 games a year that I get pitched in my 522 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,480 e-mail mostly. So you know, there's things in 523 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:49,840 there. I got pitched something at 524 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,760 Origins that I'm really excited about. 525 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,800 So right now, assuming I can sign that game, we have our next 526 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:02,560 wave of six set and we have another two games past that set 527 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,880 that are both signed. 1 is Bonk from Leo Colvini and and Bruno 528 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,720 Phi Duty. This is like this is one of Tom 529 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:16,920 Vasil's favorite games. It's kind of bluffing gambling 530 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,280 sort of game. You you add these poker chips to 531 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,600 increase the value of these tables and then you move to 532 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,400 them. But somebody might cheat at that 533 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,280 table and take the things from you. 534 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:30,360 It's very interactive fun game. And then another, another Bruno 535 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:32,640 Fi Duty game. I'm a big fan of Bruno Fi Duty. 536 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,200 So they are Wave Wave 2 though is set and it's going to be 537 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,080 another two party games, 2 casual games, 2 thinky games. 538 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,040 We have an amazing trick taking game from Taiki Shinzawa coming, 539 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,040 which I will just tease a little bit here. 540 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,200 It's a RE implement because we just started art on it, which is 541 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,480 really cool. So it's a re implementation of 542 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,760 his game Twinkle Starship, originally called Segment 543 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,280 Segment Tricks, I think. Yeah. 544 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,960 And ours is going to be called Trick to the Future is a time 545 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,680 traveling trick taking game reminiscent of Back to the 546 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,080 Future as you might imagine. Come on. 547 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,360 The the hook of the game gameplay wise what makes it a 548 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,240 time traveling game. You have cards in four suits, 549 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,560 past, present, future and beyond, and you have the numbers 550 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,920 go from zero to 9 and the center of the cards is A7 segment 551 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,040 display like you would have in a a DeLorean let's say. 552 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,520 Sure, yeah. Or a digital clock and but you 553 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,440 have these fuel rods for your time travelling machine, which 554 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,240 are basically wooden sticks. And when you play a card, you 555 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,280 can spend fuel rods to put them on the card and change the 556 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,200 number. So if you have a zero there, you 557 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,240 can spend a fuel rod and turn it to an 8. 558 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,040 And this can help you win tricks. 559 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,520 But every successful trick you win is like a time travel that 560 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,360 you took. And at the end of the round, you 561 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,800 need to be gay, able to get back to your own timeline. 562 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,040 And so to do that, you need to have enough fuel rods leftover 563 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:03,800 to cover the number of tricks you've had. 564 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,440 So if I win 3 tricks, I need to have three fuel rods at least to 565 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,760 get back. You get certain points if you 566 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,920 have, you know, leftover fuel rods. 567 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,520 You get double points if you have a perfect journey. 568 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,440 And you get no points if you have no fuel rods left to make 569 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,560 it back. So it's a very, very unique 570 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,400 gameplay experience. And the art is going to be 571 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,760 really, really cool. I'm so very excited about that. 572 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,440 So we're going to be on the lookout that what is it going to 573 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,080 be called? It'll be called Trick to the 574 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,440 Future. Trick to the future, guys, 575 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,520 That's yeah, it's amazing. That's going to be really, 576 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,320 really, really cool. That's cool. 577 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,000 So it sounds like yeah, you've got you've got a lot in the 578 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,640 pipeline. Do you have a robust process for 579 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,320 and the reason I asked this is because I've got a lot of first 580 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,520 time designers who've been featured on here. 581 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,920 I talk to them all the time. Had some great conversations at 582 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,880 Origins with friends and they're looking to pitch. 583 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,640 Maybe they're number. Do you have a real best process 584 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,080 that they can come to you and be like? 585 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:01,080 Hey, sure. Yeah. 586 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,760 So the the thing that I always ask, first of all, anybody can 587 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,560 e-mail me at paul@gamehead.com. I respond to emails. 588 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,560 If you want to pitch me a game, really the only thing I need to 589 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,720 see is a short, you know, 2 to 5 minute overview video. 590 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,560 It can be any quality. It can be completely unedited. 591 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,320 It can be shot on the iPhone. You know, I've looked at pitch 592 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,600 videos that are shot on an iPhone looking at a screen, an 593 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,120 iPhone recording of a computer screen, and it's still better 594 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,400 than any amount of writing that you can put in a, in a thing. 595 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,560 You know, obviously in that video you should tell me the 596 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,360 player count, you should tell me the time length, etcetera. 597 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,600 But I'm, you know, I just don't have time to read your rule 598 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,560 sheet cell sheets just don't get enough information down. 599 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,240 Typically for me to understand what you did is I want to know 600 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,520 who you are. I want to know the very basics 601 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,040 of your game in writing. But then show me the and you 602 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:58,400 don't have to teach me a whole game. 603 00:31:58,560 --> 00:31:59,680 Don't you don't teach me the game. 604 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,720 Just explain to me what The thing is, what makes it fun, and 605 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,720 I'll say a couple more things about, because I talked to a lot 606 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,760 of new designers. The questions that I asked them 607 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,080 about their game is like #1 who's the game for, right? 608 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,200 Who's gonna like your game? And what are they gonna, after 609 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,280 they play it? What are they gonna tell their 610 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,240 friends about so that their friends want to play it now 611 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,760 they're going to go and they're going to say, oh man, you, you 612 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,600 have got to play Arapamine because it has this thing. 613 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,080 It's like battleship, but it's better because there's these 614 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,520 gems in there and you shoot the light in and it bounces off like 615 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:35,760 it's it's almost hard to explain. 616 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,280 You just have to play it, you know, like, you know, or I can 617 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,640 say things like your game seems a little bit like it's a mix of 618 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:48,000 of For sale and Splendor. So like what makes it more than 619 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,920 just a mix of For Sale and Splendor? 620 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,320 Or why should I play this instead of playing For Sale? 621 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,600 I think those are important questions. 622 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,120 And then the question that I'm always answering as a developer 623 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,800 of a game is like, what is the game? 624 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,800 What is this game actually about? 625 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,280 How many rules can I get rid of so that it's just the core of 626 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,280 that game, right? For Sale is a game where you 627 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,080 auction with money to get cards and then blind bid those cards 628 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,480 to get VP. That's the game, right? 629 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,760 And it's easy to understand it's a two stage auction process and 630 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,480 I I think that's really important, right? 631 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,080 And Honey Buzz, for example, is a worker placement tile laying 632 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,640 game where you don't buy, you don't take actions with your 633 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,720 workers, you take action tiles and how you place them might 634 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,520 create the actions you take. You know, that might be a hook 635 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:37,680 you would describe for that game. 636 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:39,440 So I think that's really important. 637 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,480 Anybody that sends me a video, I'm basically looking at it 638 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,360 within 48 hours. I often send very thorough 639 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,160 feedback, but sometimes the answer is just like, this seems 640 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,640 kind of cool. I like that it's this part and 641 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,840 this part, but it's not a good fit for game head right now. 642 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,360 Or I could just say that we can't put this in our $20 box. 643 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,240 Right. Or, you know, whatever it is, 644 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,640 sometimes it's a theme, etcetera. 645 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,360 But I just had AI just had a conversation with someone this 646 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,600 week where they sent me a cool design and they showed me the 647 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,960 design on TTS like recorded. And I just said I think this is 648 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,880 pretty cool. But all of our games are 649 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,239 designed to be played on a bar top table, 30 inch diameter. 650 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,360 And I don't think this fits, you know, so may, and I think the 651 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,960 components are a little, you know, it's just kind of maybe it 652 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:29,800 could be better. And I, I wrote, you know, a 653 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,239 couple paragraphs explaining what I thought he could maybe do 654 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,840 with the development. And then right away he started 655 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,719 doing some work. So, you know, I'm, I'm looking 656 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,239 at that game again, thinking about if it might be a good one. 657 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,520 So it sounds so I'm, it sounds like you're, you're committed to 658 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,360 that, that $20 price point keeping it within that same. 659 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,120 I don't know if they're small boxes. 660 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:51,600 I mean, yeah. I think we call them small. 661 00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:53,159 Boxes. We call them small boxes. 662 00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:55,920 I think we call them small. They're about an inch bigger 663 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,000 than an in all play box. Yes, yeah. 664 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,000 And when I think of small box, I think of all play so and they're 665 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,280 a little bit bigger, but OK. Yeah, yeah. 666 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,520 So you're committed. That's the size. 667 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,840 So anyone comes to you with a pitch. 668 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,440 Or if you're thinking about designing a game yourself, 669 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,240 you're thinking about that space. 670 00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:16,040 That's right. Thinking about that box size, we 671 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,760 can fit 2 decks of cards side by side. 672 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,240 Realistically, we could fit probably 200 cards in that box, 673 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,080 yeah. Yep, we, we can fit quad fold. 674 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:27,520 We're going to do a hex fold board. 675 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:32,880 It'll fold out pretty darn big. You know, I know the numbers of 676 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,520 like, you know, 135mm is kind of the biggest width you can put of 677 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,600 a product component inside the box. 678 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,840 Now, sometimes people will come with a game that doesn't 679 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,800 necessarily seem like it would fit in that box. 680 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,920 And I can find a way to do it because you can change the user 681 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,400 interface to change the way that the people interact with the 682 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,520 product so that it's smaller, right And designed. 683 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,600 Don't necessarily always have a clear sense for like component 684 00:35:58,600 --> 00:35:59,880 fixes. Maybe they're thinking about 685 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:01,840 gameplay fixes. And I think that's part of what 686 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,400 development is. The harder thing for designers 687 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,840 to know is how much it's going to cost to make their game. 688 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,200 Typically they'll, they'll think like, I mean, you know, this is 689 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,000 this is like a game I could buy for $30 or this is about the 690 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,840 amount of components that are in a whatever cost game. 691 00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:21,800 Right. The more time that you spend in 692 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,440 the industry, you know like OK, I can make this deck of cards 693 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:29,320 for $37 or $0.37 or whatever and I can do the box for this many 694 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,080 cents and the woods going to cost $0.05 or whatever. 695 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:33,600 So that kind of stuff really helps. 696 00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:37,320 Something that I never did it as a designer on my own, but I 697 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,280 recommend to people is actually like reach out to someone and 698 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,880 get a quote. Reach out to a manufacturer and 699 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,080 get a quote for your project to, you know, know what it's going 700 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,560 to cost at 2003 thousand 5000 units, because that will be 701 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:56,880 really, really valuable to, to a publisher to know like, oh, OK, 702 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,600 because it's, it's a it's a long, it's a lot of work. 703 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:04,200 First of all, for us to prepare the spec sheet to even hand over 704 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,160 to say these are the materials we want, like give us quotes. 705 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,520 Let's go through the thing and it'll take a lot of time to 706 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,960 figure that out. But if if you can hand me the 707 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,680 quote from, you know, Panda or Game Land or E Star or whoever, 708 00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:18,200 that that's a huge help. Wow, that's good advice. 709 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,480 So I hope our listeners are paying attention. 710 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,800 If you're thinking about designing a game or working on 711 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,360 it, that's really good advice. So something else that stood out 712 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,600 my mind. Your first six games, and you 713 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,720 said this earlier in the episode, you've got 2 thinky 714 00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:33,920 games, 2 casual and two party games. 715 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,720 Is that kind of your? Is that your vision for future 716 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,000 lines of games that two by two by two? 717 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,640 Well, you know, I'm not sure. I think. 718 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,280 Partly we'll we'll see what is catching, you know what I mean? 719 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,280 And we'll, we'll sort of, we wanted to go wide to sort of see 720 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,520 like, you know, I think all play goes pretty wide and catches a 721 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,240 lot of folks. We wanted to be doing that. 722 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,040 Oink Games catches a ton of folks, but they really only have 723 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,160 one line, which is this is our box size and these are good 724 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,480 games. So I'm not 100% sure right now 725 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,520 the things that are selling the most are the thinky games, but 726 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,400 that's because we're really ahead of release. 727 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,440 I mean, we're, we're selling now on gamermats.com dot com, but 728 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,040 the people that know about the games again are the inside hobby 729 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,040 gamers. And even at Gen. 730 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,400 Con, we'll we'll have a big booth there. 731 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,080 We'll catch a whole different crowd of people and things will 732 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,440 start to shift. I would expect so. 733 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,000 And we're not, we're not sure if we're going to do 6 again or 734 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,800 maybe we'll do 3 and then three, but it looks kind of like we'll 735 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:39,560 have 4 ready to go. So partly it depends on when 736 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,160 things finish, when when they're done and ready to print. 737 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:49,520 And then partly it depends on when we are ready to print 738 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,000 enough to fill a container. You know, if we have restocks of 739 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,400 old titles that we need to do, then that might help. 740 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,960 Or if we're going to like do localization, maybe someone 741 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,520 wants to print in the Netherlands, then we will 742 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:02,240 include them in the print run and that kind of stuff. 743 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,000 But those 3 lines I think are good and kind of communicate, 744 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,800 but we might also add a two player line. 745 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,080 We, you know, I'm, I'm open to other kinds of things. 746 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,560 Yeah and, and I'm not sure if we would do a solo game right now 747 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,160 or not. It's a very hobby market type of 748 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,120 thing. Well, here's an interesting fact 749 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,160 is we're gonna there's a game called orapamine, which I, I 750 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:30,080 just talked about for a second, I think from play T games and 751 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,840 this has been getting a lot of press as a really amazing 752 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,120 deduction game. It's basically you and I are 753 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,840 playing battleship and and we have these gems in there. 754 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,920 I was talking about and I'm trying to buy kind of ultrasonic 755 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,960 radar, identify exactly the position and color of your gems 756 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:47,560 and you're trying to do the same for me. 757 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,680 So back and forth like that. It is a two player game. 758 00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:52,520 I'm sure that's how it was built to be. 759 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:57,040 But similar to a lot of types of games, you can have somebody 760 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,640 just have the gems and facilitate the game and then 761 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,680 like 5 people can solve the puzzle against each other, 762 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,560 right? So it's it's kind of a two to 763 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,120 five player, but it's pretty different at 345. 764 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:15,280 What what plates you put on the box is like a big two and then a 765 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,080 dash and a small 5, which I thought was interesting. 766 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,160 So for that I would put it in our think you if we had a two 767 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,120 player game line, like 2 player line, I would still put it in. 768 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,560 Our thinky line, but it's an interesting sort of blending 769 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,280 spot where we might do a two player game. 770 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,480 I think the short answer is any game that I think is awesome 771 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,040 that fits for what we're gonna do, we're gonna try to do it. 772 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,560 And right now it's gotta stay in that 20, but a $20 box. 773 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,200 But we do have like a $30 coming. 774 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,160 And so we're starting to look. OK, so there's been a lot of 775 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,680 chatter on Reddit, on Discord, all the different online 776 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:57,040 communities about these are Gen. Con attendees who are sharing 777 00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,680 concerns with, you know what, is there going to be a Gen. 778 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,680 Con this year? So many, so many vendors have 779 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,040 pulled out. What are we, what's what, what 780 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:06,880 is Gen. Con going to look like this 781 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,520 year? So tell, tell us what can we 782 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,400 expect from you at Gen. Con? 783 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:12,840 You did mention you're going to have a booth. 784 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,360 You've got events, you've got demos, you've got learner plays. 785 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:16,680 What do you what do you have going on? 786 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,960 So we actually these sort of whole pastimes, gamer mats, 787 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,400 Gamehead family. I think we have three different 788 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,320 booths. So we have pastimes has a big HQ 789 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,520 and event space in whatever the hall is where they play magic 790 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,680 and stuff. There is some other booth, maybe 791 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,160 it's like on Lucas Oil Field because I think some of this 792 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,240 stuff is going to happen down there and then in the proper 793 00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:42,280 vendor. Hall, which closes, you know 794 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:43,720 when it closes and stuff, right? That's. 795 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,880 Where we'll have our game head gamer mats booth, and that's 796 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:52,800 going to be on an end cap. It's booth 1629, a 20 by 20, so 797 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,520 pretty big. One of those pretty big. 798 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,280 Booths, yeah. It's good size and what we'll 799 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,880 have there is 6 demo stations, one for each game, around the 800 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,400 size of a bar top table, kind of, you know, 30 inches by 30 801 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,520 inches. Tons of games underneath those. 802 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,920 So anybody can walk up, down any of the games. 803 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,720 That's kind of on the left corner. 804 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,720 On the right side corner we've got this big tower like light up 805 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:20,200 thing that shows the gamer mat side. 806 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:25,880 And right behind that there's a long row of our play mats on 807 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:27,560 tables. Some of them we have these 808 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,000 really cool like fuzzy play mats people should come check out. 809 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,800 They're really neat. And then right on the end of 810 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,560 that, I think is it is a like a desk with a computer where you 811 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,160 can, you know, look at what's online and stuff. 812 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:41,480 There's another one of those in the back. 813 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,840 And then there's 36 foot tables full of play mats with our 814 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,360 register area. So we're going to have a ton of 815 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:49,840 stuff to come and check and feel. 816 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,840 And then we also have like we sell some pins and and stickers 817 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:53,720 and stuff. We have a lot. 818 00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:56,840 Of cool characters on the play mat side that end up in there. 819 00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:58,760 So it's going to be an awesome place to stop by. 820 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,960 Obviously you can buy a bunch of great products or great hang out 821 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,000 with good people and you can play these games come by and 822 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:06,480 demo. Gen. 823 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,680 Con is not always a great demo spot, but I think the game head 824 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,560 booth will be. Excellent, excellent. 825 00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:16,800 So the games, the game OS games that you can demo, will they be 826 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,560 available for purchase or not yet? 827 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,440 All of them 100%, yeah. So we'll be demoing Trinketrove. 828 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,840 Basically what we're going to use to demo is, so this is a 829 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:30,040 little known fact, If you buy a three by three calyx and A2 by 830 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,520 two calyx, you can kind of Frankenstein them together to 831 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:38,440 make 2/2 by threes. Yes, OK, take 2 two by threes, 832 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,120 jam them together and now you have basically a 30 inch square, 833 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,360 you know, pillar, and then you've got 12 cubes to store 834 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,120 games. So we're going to have tons of 835 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,280 copies of each game underneath the demo area. 836 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,360 You can grab those. They're 20 bucks. 837 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,000 And I think our deal is going to be if you buy 5 from the set 838 00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,120 five games, you can get a six game free. 839 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:01,280 That's awesome. So if you're looking to get 840 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:05,120 gifts or just by the full Wave 1, yeah, everything's going to 841 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,160 be for sale there and all our all our sweet products will be 842 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:09,520 there. I'm sure there's specials on the 843 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,520 gamer mat side too that I just don't know yet. 844 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,520 And what was that booth again for everyone listening? 845 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:18,640 That's booth 1629. 1629 guys, so make sure if you're at Gen. 846 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,120 Con, check them out. Paul, thanks so much. 847 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:22,960 This has been a great conversation. 848 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,800 Thanks for your honesty and fielding all my questions. 849 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:27,960 I appreciate it. This is this has been fantastic. 850 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:29,120 Yeah, absolutely. Appreciate it. 851 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:30,400 Will I see you at Gen. Con? 852 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,560 You will, you will, and now I know where to go. 853 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:35,560 That's right. Anybody listening out there, you 854 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,640 know, come by, say, hey, you know, shake a hand, let's play a 855 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:39,840 game. Let's chat a little bit. 856 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:41,600 Yeah, guys, check out these games. 857 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:43,960 They're they're Paul shared them with me at Origins. 858 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,600 They're really cool. I've got my eye on Trinket 859 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,480 Trove. I've not stopped thinking about 860 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,160 it since you showed it to me. Guys, thanks so much for 861 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,360 listening or watching. Remember to like and subscribe, 862 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,160 please. We're trying to get to 100 863 00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,360 subscribers on YouTube by October. 864 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,360 We're at 76. We're almost there. 865 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,200 Don't forget Spotify, Apple, all your podcast streaming devices 866 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,520 and once again, be kind to each other and play more games.