WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:03.780 Today, I'm excited to dive into the world of substack 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:08.000 marketing, which is a platform that's not just about newsletters. There's a 3 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:11.755 lot of community building elements with a comment section with 4 00:00:11.755 --> 00:00:15.055 resharing, with posting notes. And I have 5 00:00:15.195 --> 00:00:18.570 amazing guests today that I read their substacks. I follow their 6 00:00:18.570 --> 00:00:22.410 substacks. I love them, and I wanna learn more about how they're using 7 00:00:22.410 --> 00:00:25.994 them to market their business. We're gonna dive into that after our 8 00:00:25.994 --> 00:00:26.814 commercial break. 9 00:00:33.110 --> 00:00:36.550 You're listening to the Mindful Marketing Podcast. I'm Andrea 10 00:00:36.550 --> 00:00:37.050 Jones. 11 00:00:40.255 --> 00:00:44.015 I've recorded over 300 podcast episodes. Yeah. It's 12 00:00:44.015 --> 00:00:47.555 a lot of podcast episodes, and I've tried a lot of different virtual 13 00:00:47.614 --> 00:00:50.960 recording studios, but my favorite has been 14 00:00:51.100 --> 00:00:54.860 Riverside. Riverside makes their virtual recording studio look 15 00:00:54.860 --> 00:00:58.225 so profesh. My guests love it. Plus, I 16 00:00:58.225 --> 00:01:01.825 also low key love recording YouTube videos in here as well 17 00:01:01.825 --> 00:01:05.665 because it's so easy to use. My team also loves Riverside because 18 00:01:05.665 --> 00:01:08.870 it spits out separate audio, video tracks, making editing 19 00:01:09.250 --> 00:01:12.870 easy breezy, lemon squeezy. And if you want a little magic, 20 00:01:12.930 --> 00:01:16.545 they've got this tool called Magic Clips, which uses 21 00:01:16.685 --> 00:01:20.525 AI to take your video and turn it into perfect social media 22 00:01:20.525 --> 00:01:24.125 sized videos. I'm talking vertical videos for TikTok and Instagram, Facebook 23 00:01:24.125 --> 00:01:27.930 Reels, all the places you can post these videos with the captions included, 24 00:01:27.990 --> 00:01:31.750 and you don't have to hunt and search for that perfect clip. 25 00:01:31.750 --> 00:01:35.315 So if you wanna try this out for yourself, click the 26 00:01:35.315 --> 00:01:38.195 link that goes with this video. Or if you're listening to the audio on the 27 00:01:38.195 --> 00:01:41.880 podcast, it's in the show notes. Okay? Click that link. Use 28 00:01:41.880 --> 00:01:45.320 the 15% off coupon code. It's Drea, d r e 29 00:01:45.320 --> 00:01:48.840 a, and try Riverside for yourself. Thank you, 30 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:52.675 Riverside. All right. Welcome to the 31 00:01:52.675 --> 00:01:56.375 show. I'm excited to kick things off. So I'm going to start with Kathleen, 32 00:01:56.755 --> 00:02:00.510 Kathleen Oh, who I've known for years years years. Tell 33 00:02:00.510 --> 00:02:04.270 us a little bit about you and your substack. Yes. Thank 34 00:02:04.270 --> 00:02:08.030 you. And, Andrea, I it's so lovely to see you, and 35 00:02:08.030 --> 00:02:11.825 it has been years years. I am 36 00:02:11.825 --> 00:02:15.504 an integration coach. My, coaching has evolved through the 37 00:02:15.504 --> 00:02:19.300 years. Mostly what I do now is work with 38 00:02:19.860 --> 00:02:22.440 entrepreneurs or business owners in 39 00:02:23.380 --> 00:02:26.760 their desire to be more 40 00:02:27.705 --> 00:02:31.225 authentic in their life and in their business, and that those 41 00:02:31.225 --> 00:02:34.365 two parts of themselves, line up. 42 00:02:35.580 --> 00:02:38.480 I am a social media outcast 43 00:02:39.500 --> 00:02:42.560 because of the nature of my work, with psychedelics. 44 00:02:43.295 --> 00:02:47.055 I've wrestled with social social media over the last 4 45 00:02:47.055 --> 00:02:50.655 to 5 years. I was not I was kind of a 46 00:02:50.655 --> 00:02:54.350 latecomer for social media because my business was brick and mortar, 47 00:02:54.970 --> 00:02:58.730 since 2007. But in 2019, when I 48 00:02:58.730 --> 00:03:01.965 really embodied this, psychedelic work, 49 00:03:02.585 --> 00:03:06.425 I brought myself back onto social media. But the fight 50 00:03:06.425 --> 00:03:10.269 was long and hard, and eventually, they won. And 51 00:03:10.330 --> 00:03:14.010 I have been banned off Instagram multiple times, 52 00:03:14.330 --> 00:03:17.644 because of the talking about, drug use. 53 00:03:18.424 --> 00:03:22.185 So I migrated over to Substack, and the purpose of 54 00:03:22.185 --> 00:03:26.000 that was to be able to have open and honest conversations about, 55 00:03:26.860 --> 00:03:29.840 safe drug use and the use of psychedelics for, 56 00:03:30.380 --> 00:03:34.025 healing and growth. Yes. Awesome. I and I'm gonna dive 57 00:03:34.025 --> 00:03:37.545 into that too because I kind of was creeping on your whole 58 00:03:37.545 --> 00:03:41.360 journey with social media and then also the banning from social media. 59 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:45.120 So we'll talk about that as well. But next up on the show today, we 60 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:48.800 have Becky Mollenkamp, who is an accountability coach. 61 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:52.614 Becky, tell us a little bit about how you started, founded 62 00:03:52.614 --> 00:03:56.375 feminist founders because I feel like I was at the beginning of that 63 00:03:56.375 --> 00:03:59.974 journey as well, and then, how you, yeah, how you developed your 64 00:03:59.974 --> 00:04:03.720 substack. Yeah. I started my email marketing on 65 00:04:03.720 --> 00:04:07.480 ConvertKit. I'm one of the, I think, rarer few folks out 66 00:04:07.480 --> 00:04:11.004 there who have abandoned traditional email marketing for 67 00:04:11.004 --> 00:04:14.444 Substack entirely. I don't use another email marketing 68 00:04:14.444 --> 00:04:18.060 platform anymore. And for me, it was because I had gotten to a 69 00:04:18.060 --> 00:04:21.660 place of feeling this negative energy as I was 70 00:04:21.660 --> 00:04:25.375 typing emails to my email list of like, why am I giving you all 71 00:04:25.375 --> 00:04:28.995 of this stuff, and I'm paying to email you and you're not buying anything anyway, 72 00:04:29.294 --> 00:04:33.110 because my clients come through referral. And I was like, this 73 00:04:33.110 --> 00:04:36.870 isn't how you should feel when you're marketing your business. Like, you shouldn't feel 74 00:04:36.870 --> 00:04:40.525 resentment towards the people you're trying to sell things to. And so when I learned 75 00:04:40.525 --> 00:04:43.965 about substack, I was like, wait a minute. I could get paid to send 76 00:04:43.965 --> 00:04:47.725 emails instead of paying to send emails. I like this idea. And 77 00:04:47.725 --> 00:04:51.380 I don't want to send marketing emails. I don't 78 00:04:51.380 --> 00:04:55.000 wanna send sales emails. It wasn't what I was doing anyway. 79 00:04:55.220 --> 00:04:58.805 So with feminist founders, it started as a podcast. The sub stack kind of 80 00:04:58.805 --> 00:05:02.565 came along with for the ride as a way to support for, hopefully, 81 00:05:02.565 --> 00:05:06.325 for the 2 to support each other. And, eventually, I was enjoying 82 00:05:06.325 --> 00:05:10.050 sub stack so much that I was like, I'm just ditching email marketing 83 00:05:10.110 --> 00:05:13.630 and going all in on substack. And I'm getting to a 84 00:05:13.630 --> 00:05:17.134 place like Kathleen, not because of being banned from social media, but 85 00:05:17.134 --> 00:05:20.835 also feeling a similar level of frustration with social media 86 00:05:20.975 --> 00:05:24.682 that I was with email marketing and enjoying notes so much on substack, which I'm 87 00:05:24.682 --> 00:05:28.324 sure we can talk about that I'm getting I'm edging ever so much closer 88 00:05:28.324 --> 00:05:31.966 to saying I may just leave social media too. I just really be all in 89 00:05:31.966 --> 00:05:35.675 there. And but feminist founders was for, you know, business owners who are wanting 90 00:05:35.675 --> 00:05:39.435 to do business in a more equity centered way. Awesome. Yes. Thank you, 91 00:05:39.435 --> 00:05:43.250 Becky. Love that. I've been seeing your threads, 92 00:05:43.389 --> 00:05:47.150 so I understand your feelings on social media. A lot of people feel this 93 00:05:47.150 --> 00:05:50.930 way as well. Tara, I'd love to go to you. 94 00:05:51.675 --> 00:05:55.515 I think you were the very first Hub Stack that I 95 00:05:55.515 --> 00:05:59.360 followed and then also, like, upgraded. And so it 96 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:02.639 was, like, for me, the learning of, like, oh, this is what this platform is 97 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:06.160 about. But tell us about the transition to, like, taking What 98 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:09.265 Works over to Substack and what it looks like today. 99 00:06:10.145 --> 00:06:13.825 Yeah. So, I switched about a year ago also from 100 00:06:13.825 --> 00:06:17.265 ConvertKit and canceled my ConvertKit account, not 101 00:06:17.265 --> 00:06:21.080 because they're not a wonderful company and with a great product, 102 00:06:21.139 --> 00:06:24.740 but because I wanted to do something different, which 103 00:06:24.740 --> 00:06:28.565 was just focus on my writing and podcasting as 104 00:06:28.565 --> 00:06:31.145 I've been doing for the last couple of years. 105 00:06:32.245 --> 00:06:35.840 Yeah. So I switched, all of my folks over to 106 00:06:35.840 --> 00:06:39.280 Substack when notes rolled out, and, it's 107 00:06:39.280 --> 00:06:42.720 been great to just focus on writing and think 108 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:46.245 about writing and think about the podcast through a writer's 109 00:06:46.465 --> 00:06:50.005 eyes. And, it's it's been 110 00:06:50.145 --> 00:06:53.820 really great. So, you know, I have some 111 00:06:53.820 --> 00:06:57.580 qualms. I have some questions still when I 112 00:06:57.580 --> 00:06:59.735 think about how I use the platform platform's 113 00:07:02.035 --> 00:07:02.995 about and who's there and all of those things. But by and large, it's been 114 00:07:02.995 --> 00:07:04.615 a really good change. And I think probably 115 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:13.400 unlike, a lot of people, or at least a lot of 116 00:07:13.400 --> 00:07:16.919 people who are gonna be listening to this, my substack is not 117 00:07:16.919 --> 00:07:20.535 about marketing a business. I don't think about it as marketing 118 00:07:20.535 --> 00:07:24.375 very similar to to what Becky said. It 119 00:07:24.375 --> 00:07:27.970 is a newsletter that I write and that people 120 00:07:28.030 --> 00:07:31.710 support, and that's what it is. And, 121 00:07:31.950 --> 00:07:35.615 I know a lot about marketing, but at the same time, I 122 00:07:35.615 --> 00:07:39.235 write about all sorts of different things and don't use it as marketing, so 123 00:07:39.455 --> 00:07:42.970 that's that's my deal. Yeah. I I find it 124 00:07:42.970 --> 00:07:46.410 fascinating that that, theme seems to echo in 125 00:07:46.410 --> 00:07:49.925 everyone's answer, which is, like, this Substack 126 00:07:49.925 --> 00:07:53.605 Marketing channel is really a communication tool with 127 00:07:53.605 --> 00:07:57.259 your community members. It's a way to share with 128 00:07:57.259 --> 00:08:00.780 them and maybe open conversations with them in a different 129 00:08:00.780 --> 00:08:04.539 way. One of the things that I love about SubStack is the comment 130 00:08:04.539 --> 00:08:08.095 section. I find that it's different than, you know, ConvertKit 131 00:08:08.395 --> 00:08:12.075 where someone can reply to an email. But that 132 00:08:12.075 --> 00:08:15.910 feels different somehow than the public comment 133 00:08:16.050 --> 00:08:19.810 of, like, acknowledging something. And also, I love that I can 134 00:08:19.810 --> 00:08:23.474 highlight something and then also just share it really quickly with the 135 00:08:23.474 --> 00:08:27.074 people in my network to say, here's what I'm reading. I loved this piece of 136 00:08:27.074 --> 00:08:30.879 it. Go read the whole thing. So it definitely has that community 137 00:08:30.939 --> 00:08:34.620 vibe as well. I'll open this question up to 138 00:08:34.620 --> 00:08:38.299 the floor. Was there a key moment where 139 00:08:38.299 --> 00:08:41.464 you knew that Substack was working for you? 140 00:08:43.284 --> 00:08:46.970 For me, the deliverability of Substack is pretty 141 00:08:46.970 --> 00:08:49.150 substantial over anything that I've used before. 142 00:08:50.730 --> 00:08:54.330 And the so the readership really 143 00:08:54.330 --> 00:08:58.115 increased. And I would say the engagement increased with the 144 00:08:58.115 --> 00:09:01.875 platform. And so I think that that was 145 00:09:01.875 --> 00:09:05.649 definitely a turning point, and that has remained consistent for me 146 00:09:05.649 --> 00:09:09.330 throughout the entire time that I've been with Substack. Yeah. K. So 147 00:09:09.330 --> 00:09:12.925 building the community through readership. Becky or 148 00:09:12.925 --> 00:09:16.545 Tara, any moments where you were like, ah, it's working. 149 00:09:18.045 --> 00:09:21.350 I would say for me, I was very lucky when I 150 00:09:21.650 --> 00:09:25.090 switched over. Actually, let me back up. I did a 151 00:09:25.090 --> 00:09:28.805 Substack experiment, at the end 152 00:09:28.805 --> 00:09:32.644 of 2022 where I hosted a pop up substack that 153 00:09:32.644 --> 00:09:35.945 I sold as pay what you want actually through ConvertKit. 154 00:09:36.910 --> 00:09:40.370 This was before, you know, I'd ditched all of that, 155 00:09:40.830 --> 00:09:44.190 and I liked the community aspects. I liked 156 00:09:44.190 --> 00:09:47.895 how it made me want to write and, like, just 157 00:09:47.895 --> 00:09:51.355 the experience of the platform 158 00:09:51.815 --> 00:09:55.400 was conducive to how I like to operate 159 00:09:55.400 --> 00:09:59.080 online, so that was nice. And so from there, 160 00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:02.735 I kept thinking and kept thinking about making the switch. And then when they 161 00:10:02.735 --> 00:10:06.514 rolled out notes, and I was like, well, 162 00:10:07.055 --> 00:10:10.790 this seems great because now I will have a social 163 00:10:10.790 --> 00:10:14.630 media place that I can hang out, that 164 00:10:14.630 --> 00:10:18.355 also just, like, completely ties in 165 00:10:18.735 --> 00:10:21.715 to my goals and what I actually want to be doing. 166 00:10:23.030 --> 00:10:26.810 And so that was when I decided to to make the move. And 167 00:10:27.270 --> 00:10:31.050 in that process of getting What Works set up on Substack, 168 00:10:31.830 --> 00:10:35.394 one of the partner success team, I think this is what they call 169 00:10:35.394 --> 00:10:38.935 them, folks reached out to me who happened to have been an old 170 00:10:39.235 --> 00:10:42.910 contact of mine from CreativeLive. And she was like, hey. I 171 00:10:42.910 --> 00:10:46.750 don't know if you remember me. Of course, I remembered her. But, you know, do 172 00:10:46.750 --> 00:10:50.445 you wanna hop on Zoom and and talk about Substack? I'm 173 00:10:50.445 --> 00:10:54.225 happy to answer any questions you have. And so from there, 174 00:10:55.085 --> 00:10:58.450 you know, I was lucky enough from that connection to get 175 00:10:58.450 --> 00:11:02.050 featured, to have an article in Substack Reads over the over a 176 00:11:02.050 --> 00:11:05.670 weekend. And so I can't say that it was any one moment, 177 00:11:05.730 --> 00:11:09.235 but it was sort of everything that I 178 00:11:09.235 --> 00:11:12.135 had hoped would happen as part of 179 00:11:12.595 --> 00:11:15.955 moving to substack, the deliverability, the list 180 00:11:15.955 --> 00:11:19.480 growth, the, back and forth, the quality 181 00:11:19.620 --> 00:11:23.220 of kind of people and discourse that I now had 182 00:11:23.220 --> 00:11:27.035 access to, all of that just fell into place with 183 00:11:27.115 --> 00:11:30.715 in a few weeks, and and then people 184 00:11:30.715 --> 00:11:33.855 started paying for it, and it was wonderful. 185 00:11:35.019 --> 00:11:38.660 I love that. And I I have a follow-up question, Tara, because Yep. 186 00:11:38.779 --> 00:11:42.574 In the midst of all of that, I believe you also did your book launch. 187 00:11:42.574 --> 00:11:46.194 Was that at the same time as the Substack, or where did the book launch 188 00:11:46.735 --> 00:11:50.274 fall into play with launching Substack, and how did that help or hurt? 189 00:11:51.089 --> 00:11:53.990 Yeah. So the book launched in November 2022. 190 00:11:54.930 --> 00:11:58.505 I moved to Substack in April 2020 3. So that 191 00:11:58.625 --> 00:12:02.385 there there was actually a pretty, what 192 00:12:02.385 --> 00:12:05.720 felt like a long period of time. I suppose it really isn't. But, there was 193 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:09.480 a pretty pretty big gap between those two things. What I'll 194 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:13.260 say about that, though, is that I had good momentum 195 00:12:13.775 --> 00:12:17.375 coming off of the book launch. Right? Plenty of people who had 196 00:12:17.375 --> 00:12:21.055 interviewed me on podcasts. I was you know, the book was being featured. I was 197 00:12:21.055 --> 00:12:23.970 being featured, and it got renewed 198 00:12:24.509 --> 00:12:28.269 attention in January of 2023 because it's a book about goal setting, 199 00:12:28.269 --> 00:12:31.014 and that's what you do. 200 00:12:31.875 --> 00:12:35.475 And so I was in a good position where I didn't 201 00:12:35.475 --> 00:12:39.240 feel like I had to be promoting the book hardcore in this 202 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:43.000 new place. But at the same time, I had momentum from 203 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:46.680 that launch. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting how 204 00:12:46.680 --> 00:12:50.345 everything plays together too. I'd be curious to see how, as your 205 00:12:50.345 --> 00:12:53.785 subset grows, other areas of, well, you know, the work that you do 206 00:12:53.785 --> 00:12:57.290 grow. Becky, I'd love to hear from you as well. 207 00:12:57.670 --> 00:13:01.450 Was there a key moment where you were like, Substack 208 00:13:01.510 --> 00:13:05.355 is working for me? Yeah. I was gonna point out a couple and first just 209 00:13:05.355 --> 00:13:09.035 say that, I hope to be Tara someday when I grow up. 210 00:13:09.035 --> 00:13:12.400 I've seen what she's doing and, you know, she's one of those folks that you 211 00:13:12.400 --> 00:13:14.720 look at and say, like, oh, that's the kind of success I hope to get 212 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:17.280 to on some stack, which I know for Tara. She's probably like, no, I wanna 213 00:13:17.280 --> 00:13:20.475 get to another place. But, like, I would love to get just to that place. 214 00:13:20.715 --> 00:13:24.015 But for me, the first place of success felt like when I started it 215 00:13:25.035 --> 00:13:28.130 and the immediate relief I felt. So, like, the internal 216 00:13:28.510 --> 00:13:32.210 success was right away of feeling like this just feels better. 217 00:13:32.430 --> 00:13:36.235 I it feels easier. The the lift feels lower. The 218 00:13:36.235 --> 00:13:39.995 reward feels greater. I'm getting feedback from people. And I just could 219 00:13:39.995 --> 00:13:43.620 feel such a difference from when I was in And, again, 220 00:13:43.620 --> 00:13:46.820 nothing bad about ConvertKit. I loved it. I used it for a really long time. 221 00:13:46.820 --> 00:13:50.420 But I it was a different mindset when I was inside of that tool. That 222 00:13:50.420 --> 00:13:54.055 tool felt like I was there to sell things because it's what it was designed 223 00:13:54.055 --> 00:13:57.735 for. And just something about being in the Substack platform felt 224 00:13:57.735 --> 00:14:01.255 different. I didn't feel that, like, oh my gosh. If they don't buy anything, 225 00:14:01.255 --> 00:14:04.490 then I've failed. It just felt more like if I'm putting this out and people 226 00:14:04.490 --> 00:14:07.450 are receptive to it, then I've done what I wanted to do. And I could 227 00:14:07.450 --> 00:14:10.834 feel that relief immediately. And then about 6 months 228 00:14:10.834 --> 00:14:13.795 later, about halfway to where I'm at in the journey, because I'm coming up on 229 00:14:13.795 --> 00:14:17.529 a year, I joined, I think, while I had some success 230 00:14:17.529 --> 00:14:21.130 on threads. And as much as I said, I can't stand social media, there was 231 00:14:21.130 --> 00:14:24.570 another sort of turning point there where I was getting a real influx of new 232 00:14:24.570 --> 00:14:28.275 subscribers from my efforts through threads only because it was the only link I 233 00:14:28.275 --> 00:14:31.315 have in my bio on threads and people were finding their way. And it started 234 00:14:31.315 --> 00:14:35.060 to become this first real influx of new subscribers were new to 235 00:14:35.060 --> 00:14:38.900 me, new to my world and finding me, and that felt like, okay. I can 236 00:14:38.900 --> 00:14:42.495 get new traffic to this thing and have it work. And then I would say 237 00:14:42.495 --> 00:14:46.095 most recently has been using notes. It's been around, I just haven't used it 238 00:14:46.095 --> 00:14:49.930 until recently. And I've started to discover like, oh, this actually feels a 239 00:14:49.930 --> 00:14:53.770 whole lot better than threads or x, because I can show up and 240 00:14:53.770 --> 00:14:57.485 so far the community inside of threads, I've not had a single rude 241 00:14:57.485 --> 00:15:01.165 or hateful comment or anything inside of 242 00:15:01.165 --> 00:15:04.945 notes. And I cannot say the same for threads, which is, like, daily. 243 00:15:05.270 --> 00:15:09.110 I'm getting negative stuff. Now it's a smaller audience. That's part of it. But also 244 00:15:09.110 --> 00:15:12.630 just think it's a better audience. So I've had multiple checkpoints where I've been 245 00:15:12.630 --> 00:15:16.455 like, internally, it's feeling better, externally, it's feeling better. And now 246 00:15:16.455 --> 00:15:19.835 I'm actually starting to see like, oh, the the platform itself 247 00:15:20.190 --> 00:15:23.950 is gonna help me with my business. Yeah. That's beautiful. I 248 00:15:23.950 --> 00:15:26.750 love to see it. And I I love being like the fly on the wall 249 00:15:26.750 --> 00:15:30.385 to all of you and going, oh, look what they're doing. I love it. So 250 00:15:30.385 --> 00:15:33.985 thank you for allowing me to pick your brain. We're gonna take a quick break. 251 00:15:33.985 --> 00:15:37.360 And when we come back, I have specific questions for each of you about 252 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:39.860 your sub stack success when we get back. 253 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:44.560 We are long past the good old days of MySpace. And 254 00:15:44.560 --> 00:15:47.935 despite what those Facebook ads are touting as the magical 255 00:15:48.235 --> 00:15:51.835 AI's illusion antithesis to social media, social 256 00:15:51.835 --> 00:15:55.600 media is not dead. It is simply evolving. And 257 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:59.140 that's what we're exploring at the Social Media Day Summit. 258 00:15:59.680 --> 00:16:03.280 Join me and my fellow experts on June 30th as we dive 259 00:16:03.280 --> 00:16:06.834 into what's working for social media marketers here 260 00:16:07.214 --> 00:16:10.595 now and today. We're exploring innovative strategies 261 00:16:10.894 --> 00:16:14.450 and timeless tactics that you can use for both 262 00:16:14.450 --> 00:16:18.150 yourself and your clients. Grab your ticket today for $10 263 00:16:18.210 --> 00:16:21.944 and I'll see you there. Alright. And 264 00:16:21.944 --> 00:16:25.324 we're back. So, Kathleen, I wanna start with you because 265 00:16:26.824 --> 00:16:30.490 I find your approach to subsect interesting. Out of our 266 00:16:30.490 --> 00:16:34.330 panelists here, you're the only one who doesn't have a, like, a 267 00:16:34.330 --> 00:16:37.070 subscription model the on the on your Substack. 268 00:16:37.714 --> 00:16:41.315 However, it is very closely tied to the work that you do. It's 269 00:16:41.315 --> 00:16:45.154 so deeply personal, the work that you do. And, also, it's 270 00:16:45.154 --> 00:16:48.970 it's your kind of in reading your your newsletters, 271 00:16:49.030 --> 00:16:52.710 it feels like a nod to what you do without going too deep into the 272 00:16:52.710 --> 00:16:56.204 weeds of, like, here's specifically what you do with psychedelics, which is 273 00:16:56.204 --> 00:16:59.425 different from your approach to social media. 274 00:16:59.805 --> 00:17:03.644 So that very long question is all about, I wanna just dig 275 00:17:03.644 --> 00:17:07.310 deeper into how you approach Substack and how it ties into 276 00:17:07.310 --> 00:17:10.050 your business model. Give us all the details. 277 00:17:11.310 --> 00:17:14.925 That's a good question. So, 278 00:17:15.785 --> 00:17:19.224 you know, I think substack is just a place for me to be 279 00:17:19.224 --> 00:17:22.929 myself, and that what I 280 00:17:22.929 --> 00:17:25.990 know about working, with clients in this 281 00:17:26.289 --> 00:17:30.070 realm, often people it's a really big trust building, 282 00:17:30.690 --> 00:17:34.424 experience because I think that there's a lot of stuff that goes on 283 00:17:34.424 --> 00:17:37.945 that is quite shady. And people are there's a 284 00:17:37.945 --> 00:17:41.360 tendency to, I would say be 285 00:17:41.420 --> 00:17:44.860 disingenuous about, processes and people's 286 00:17:44.860 --> 00:17:48.300 healing and, that, you know, I 287 00:17:48.300 --> 00:17:51.605 think I can display my work as 288 00:17:52.465 --> 00:17:55.845 part of who I am. And that that really 289 00:17:56.145 --> 00:17:59.920 what Subtech has done for me is allow 290 00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:03.600 me to speak openly about that. And it's not a 291 00:18:03.600 --> 00:18:07.440 great marketing model. I have to be honest, it's not like sexy. I 292 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:11.225 get, you know, a vulnerability hangover 293 00:18:11.284 --> 00:18:15.125 often with this some of the things that I share. But 294 00:18:15.125 --> 00:18:18.760 what I do know is that the work that people are 295 00:18:18.760 --> 00:18:22.440 looking for is at that depth. What 296 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:26.279 they want for themselves, I feel I have to offer within 297 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:29.735 myself for them to see as a 298 00:18:29.735 --> 00:18:33.575 model of growth and opportunity. And, you know, 299 00:18:33.575 --> 00:18:37.149 I think with what I learned in all of the years 300 00:18:37.149 --> 00:18:40.830 with Instagram, and it was that people just 301 00:18:40.830 --> 00:18:44.545 didn't they had a lot of opinions about it, and they weren't kind, 302 00:18:46.045 --> 00:18:49.485 when people are being honest. And so what I've done with 303 00:18:49.485 --> 00:18:52.625 Substack is just shown parts of myself that I feel 304 00:18:53.120 --> 00:18:56.960 people can relate to. And it feels like a safe place 305 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:00.720 for that. I don't have a paid tier, but people can 306 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:04.424 voluntarily pay. And they do. I I get, 307 00:19:05.365 --> 00:19:09.205 like, pledges. It feels like I don't like, I wish I 308 00:19:09.205 --> 00:19:12.920 could have a conversation with the people that pay me. I don't I there's 309 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:16.600 nothing other than just their kindness and their 310 00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:19.740 generosity that shows up in my Stripe account. 311 00:19:20.515 --> 00:19:24.115 So it is there. And I do I I do know people see the 312 00:19:24.115 --> 00:19:27.415 value in it, even though I don't promote it in that way. 313 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:31.559 And I'm grateful. I'm grateful for the opportunity to 314 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:35.159 speak, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to be heard and that people 315 00:19:35.159 --> 00:19:37.895 do value it. Yes. 316 00:19:38.515 --> 00:19:41.955 Awesome. Thank you for sharing that, Kathleen. Do you find 317 00:19:41.955 --> 00:19:45.414 that, there's a different 318 00:19:46.860 --> 00:19:50.380 energetic experience with Subsack versus you know, I 319 00:19:50.380 --> 00:19:54.220 saw I saw your work on TikTok, for instance. There's moments where 320 00:19:54.220 --> 00:19:57.875 you had, like, really viral videos and then 321 00:19:57.875 --> 00:20:01.495 also the, like, vitriol in the comments that comes with that. 322 00:20:02.450 --> 00:20:06.290 How does that experience compare to what 323 00:20:06.290 --> 00:20:09.030 your experience has been like on Substack so far? 324 00:20:10.505 --> 00:20:14.285 Oh, they are not comparable, honestly. 325 00:20:15.065 --> 00:20:18.730 TikTok, I felt like I was slaying dragons 326 00:20:18.730 --> 00:20:22.430 every day. And, you know, in some ways, 327 00:20:22.490 --> 00:20:26.170 I've I I enjoyed it. Other days, I was completely 328 00:20:26.170 --> 00:20:29.745 burnt out. And the having 329 00:20:30.125 --> 00:20:33.885 I had several viral videos on TikTok. The one 330 00:20:33.885 --> 00:20:37.299 that went most viral had 9,000,000,000 9,000,000 views. 331 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:41.840 And, like, I can't even I don't even know how 332 00:20:41.840 --> 00:20:45.519 many comments. But it wasn't so much about the comments. It was about the 333 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:49.174 other Tik Tok producers that were, like, coming after 334 00:20:49.174 --> 00:20:52.955 me. And so it's not it was 335 00:20:53.015 --> 00:20:56.600 a friendly place until there was, like, these 336 00:20:56.740 --> 00:21:00.500 divisive, opinions, which is fine. I'm I 337 00:21:00.500 --> 00:21:04.100 can handle those conversations. But it's all free 338 00:21:04.100 --> 00:21:07.945 labor. And it's a place where my, 339 00:21:08.405 --> 00:21:12.165 like, energetically and emotionally and intellectually, I can be 340 00:21:12.165 --> 00:21:16.000 challenged, but only to a certain point. And that does not happen on 341 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:19.520 Substack. That is, there are people that challenge me and I 342 00:21:19.520 --> 00:21:23.280 am fine with it. I actually welcome it and want it. I 343 00:21:23.280 --> 00:21:27.105 don't wanna be speaking into an echo chamber. But 344 00:21:27.105 --> 00:21:30.545 with TikTok, it was a lot of keyboard warriors. It was a lot 345 00:21:30.545 --> 00:21:34.270 of people that just actually wanted 346 00:21:35.049 --> 00:21:38.830 to be divisive and opinionated and unclear 347 00:21:39.450 --> 00:21:43.185 on what they were talking about. And to be honest, it 348 00:21:43.185 --> 00:21:45.925 made me much more clear on what I was talking about because, 349 00:21:47.345 --> 00:21:50.740 there were things that I was questioning because I was being 350 00:21:50.740 --> 00:21:54.040 questioned. And I thankfully learned 351 00:21:54.500 --> 00:21:58.200 that there's more than one way to read science. 352 00:21:59.495 --> 00:22:03.175 And I don't I'm not a scientist. So the things that 353 00:22:03.175 --> 00:22:06.855 I shared sometimes were, you know, with a with a very 354 00:22:06.855 --> 00:22:10.600 skewed lens. And I had my hands slapped a couple times, 355 00:22:10.600 --> 00:22:14.220 and I, I was able to be a better practitioner, 356 00:22:14.760 --> 00:22:18.565 and a better person in on social media. And I was able 357 00:22:18.565 --> 00:22:22.405 to take responsibility. And so, you know, I don't think that that 358 00:22:22.405 --> 00:22:25.765 would have happened had I not had those opportunities, those growth 359 00:22:25.765 --> 00:22:29.580 opportunities with the viral experience. And 360 00:22:29.580 --> 00:22:33.200 it is kind of fun to say it went viral and I also 361 00:22:33.500 --> 00:22:37.295 got burnt out and, you know, laid down, like, my wound 362 00:22:37.295 --> 00:22:39.955 for wounds for a few years while I recovered. 363 00:22:41.855 --> 00:22:44.895 Awesome. Thank you. It froze a little bit, but I feel like I got most 364 00:22:44.895 --> 00:22:48.659 of what you said. The interesting 365 00:22:48.659 --> 00:22:52.100 thing about your reflections is that they're not 366 00:22:52.100 --> 00:22:55.825 new, not even to this podcast. About 5 episodes 367 00:22:55.825 --> 00:22:59.665 before this one, I interviewed, Meg Griffith, who had a 368 00:22:59.665 --> 00:23:03.390 very similar experience on TikTok, where 369 00:23:03.390 --> 00:23:06.750 it was good until it wasn't. And there is this 370 00:23:06.750 --> 00:23:10.450 culture on some of the social platforms, many of them, 371 00:23:10.910 --> 00:23:14.395 where conversation becomes very 372 00:23:14.395 --> 00:23:18.235 divisive very quickly and people, frankly, argue for the 373 00:23:18.235 --> 00:23:21.910 sake of arguing instead of having conversations for the sake of 374 00:23:21.910 --> 00:23:25.690 clarity. And I do think that substack offers 375 00:23:25.990 --> 00:23:29.705 something different there. Maybe that's just my bubble and the 376 00:23:29.705 --> 00:23:33.465 Substacks that I subscribe to, but I do see a 377 00:23:33.465 --> 00:23:37.309 very marked difference in how, the community 378 00:23:37.309 --> 00:23:40.909 on Substack wants to have conversation and wants to have 379 00:23:40.909 --> 00:23:44.750 conversation for clarity and not conversation just to argue with people. So thank you 380 00:23:44.750 --> 00:23:48.105 for sharing that. I love the the work that you're doing there. 381 00:23:48.725 --> 00:23:52.405 I wanna go over to Becky Nacks. Becky, one of the 382 00:23:52.405 --> 00:23:56.139 interesting things that I find about feminist founders is that, 383 00:23:56.759 --> 00:24:00.380 yes, you have the podcast on there, but you also have other people 384 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:04.095 contributing work to the to the 385 00:24:04.095 --> 00:24:07.934 feminist founders. It's a collective experience. So talk to 386 00:24:07.934 --> 00:24:11.690 me about that decision and how that has added how the 387 00:24:11.690 --> 00:24:15.150 various voices has added to the work that you're doing. 388 00:24:16.330 --> 00:24:19.995 Yeah. It was it's twofold. One in 389 00:24:19.995 --> 00:24:23.835 that trying to keep up with the cadence while also being 390 00:24:23.835 --> 00:24:27.400 a mom and a business owner because I still, you know, have to coach 391 00:24:27.800 --> 00:24:31.560 to make income have to want to get to. But coaching is still a 392 00:24:31.560 --> 00:24:35.340 part of my the main bread and butter for my business. Right? Substack, 393 00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:38.765 I'm making money on Substack, but like, not a lot of money on 394 00:24:38.765 --> 00:24:42.524 Substack right now. I hope that will change. So one, it was just 395 00:24:42.605 --> 00:24:46.260 I I can't carry the weight of it and deliver the amount of 396 00:24:46.260 --> 00:24:49.460 content I wanna be putting out. I know I could put out a small post 397 00:24:49.460 --> 00:24:52.020 a month or something, but that's just not how I wanted it to show up. 398 00:24:52.020 --> 00:24:55.495 That wasn't the cadence I wanted. And so I couldn't do it alone. 399 00:24:55.635 --> 00:24:59.395 And it's also really reflective of my values around community. And so I 400 00:24:59.395 --> 00:25:03.180 like that, that I'm getting to introduce people to other voices. I'm getting to be 401 00:25:03.180 --> 00:25:06.940 in collaboration with other people who share values. So it felt really 402 00:25:06.940 --> 00:25:10.595 good, and it also selfishly lifts a weight for me. And it's also 403 00:25:10.595 --> 00:25:13.735 in service of a bigger vision I'm holding for feminist founders. 404 00:25:14.115 --> 00:25:17.555 That's a long way out, I'm sure. But I tell people I wanna make, like, 405 00:25:17.555 --> 00:25:21.110 the, you know, Forbes meets bell hooks. I wanna create like a media 406 00:25:21.169 --> 00:25:25.009 space for people who care about doing business differently. That kind of is that place 407 00:25:25.009 --> 00:25:28.450 that you go to where you care about equity and social justice as a business 408 00:25:28.450 --> 00:25:32.105 owner. And the first step towards that to me felt like how do I 409 00:25:32.105 --> 00:25:35.725 decenter myself from this? Because I don't want it to be, 410 00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:39.760 you know, Huffington Post and it's I'm Arianna Huffington. I want it to be, 411 00:25:39.760 --> 00:25:43.540 like, a space that is feminist founders, and I happen to be the editor 412 00:25:43.600 --> 00:25:47.434 of the space, but it's not just my voice. And so the first step towards 413 00:25:47.434 --> 00:25:50.635 like the baby step that I could do now felt like how can I bring 414 00:25:50.635 --> 00:25:54.350 other voices into this experience? And so I have a lot of I have 415 00:25:54.429 --> 00:25:58.190 guest writers, and they're all doing it because they want to amplify their own voices 416 00:25:58.190 --> 00:26:01.549 because they care about me, they care about the mission. And so they're doing it 417 00:26:01.549 --> 00:26:05.215 for free because I'm not making a lot of money. And I guess the 418 00:26:05.215 --> 00:26:08.835 side benefit of it ends up becoming some of these folks also have Substacks. 419 00:26:09.215 --> 00:26:12.975 So I you know, there's that cross promotion piece. A good friend of mine, Dacey 420 00:26:12.975 --> 00:26:16.691 Gillespie, I'll call her out since we're talking about substack, and she has a really 421 00:26:16.691 --> 00:26:20.380 nice size substack called unflattering. And we happen to be very old friends. We 422 00:26:20.380 --> 00:26:24.135 live in the same city, and we were mastermind partners. So she did a substack 423 00:26:24.135 --> 00:26:27.895 for me. And, you know, she carries weight in the same way, Tara, 424 00:26:27.895 --> 00:26:31.015 like, you have weight in that space that many of us don't have and that 425 00:26:31.015 --> 00:26:34.769 we're trying to build. And being able to collaborate with other folks on the space 426 00:26:35.149 --> 00:26:38.450 who have a bigger following is a huge opportunity 427 00:26:38.669 --> 00:26:42.175 that inside of substack that you don't get, like, when you're using 428 00:26:42.175 --> 00:26:45.695 ConvertKit. There's this, although I know that they're now trying to compete in the same 429 00:26:45.695 --> 00:26:49.240 way, but you know, that you get this opportunity to say, look look, 430 00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:52.600 there's this other audience, and I want you to learn about this person. I 431 00:26:52.600 --> 00:26:55.715 mean, Daisy just recently commented 432 00:26:56.335 --> 00:26:59.955 on a post that someone shared on my Substack 2 months ago, 433 00:27:00.630 --> 00:27:04.470 And her comment has brought in a giant influx of new 434 00:27:04.470 --> 00:27:07.670 subscribers. And I think it's really interesting for the people who have that kind of 435 00:27:07.670 --> 00:27:11.235 weight to think about how to use that weight. And it's really a wonderful 436 00:27:11.235 --> 00:27:13.795 opportunity for some of us who don't yet have that weight to begin to get 437 00:27:14.035 --> 00:27:17.875 maximize our reach. So there's a lot of reasons that I use guest writers. 438 00:27:17.875 --> 00:27:21.590 Some of them are, well, I think, ultimately, they're all kind of selfish. But other 439 00:27:21.590 --> 00:27:24.790 than I do really wanna amplify the voices of other folks and be in community 440 00:27:24.790 --> 00:27:28.385 with people, and this allows me to do that. Yeah. So how do 441 00:27:28.385 --> 00:27:32.085 you decide what's going behind the paywall 442 00:27:32.225 --> 00:27:36.039 when you have guest writers? Are all of their submissions kind 443 00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:39.580 of, like, the public facing ones? Or how do how do you make that decision? 444 00:27:40.544 --> 00:27:44.384 Yeah. This is still an ever like, it's always a work in progress trying to 445 00:27:44.384 --> 00:27:48.190 figure this piece out because I don't have a lot of paid subscribers 446 00:27:48.190 --> 00:27:51.309 yet. So that audience is so much smaller. And the last thing I would wanna 447 00:27:51.309 --> 00:27:54.429 do is say, hey, come put give me your free labor, and then I'm gonna 448 00:27:54.429 --> 00:27:57.805 show it to the tiniest fraction of people that I have in this audience. 449 00:27:58.105 --> 00:28:01.705 So everything I do for that other people write absolutely goes 450 00:28:01.705 --> 00:28:05.165 to the entire subscriber base because it just feels 451 00:28:05.470 --> 00:28:08.350 fair. I'm not paying you, so the least I can do is allow you to 452 00:28:08.350 --> 00:28:12.190 have maximum reach. And what goes behind the paywall 453 00:28:12.190 --> 00:28:16.005 right now is primarily community stuff, anything that's happening outside 454 00:28:16.005 --> 00:28:19.605 of substack. So I host a monthly forum where I have 455 00:28:19.605 --> 00:28:22.850 panelists come in. It was actually right before this call, and it was beautiful. It's 456 00:28:22.850 --> 00:28:26.690 like the space where we get together and have really intimate, wonderful conversations about 457 00:28:26.690 --> 00:28:30.405 things that are at that intersection of business and social justice. Today, we 458 00:28:30.405 --> 00:28:34.245 were talking about what does collaboration look like when you are looking at 459 00:28:34.245 --> 00:28:38.005 it through this more equitable lens, which felt really wonderful 460 00:28:38.005 --> 00:28:41.830 as I was going into this collaborative experience. So anything like that that I'm 461 00:28:41.830 --> 00:28:45.590 doing off of substack is for paid subscribers. I 462 00:28:45.590 --> 00:28:49.345 also host co working sessions. So and I'm always thinking about how else do 463 00:28:49.345 --> 00:28:52.645 I add to that. The writing piece so far anyway, 464 00:28:53.424 --> 00:28:57.240 I just feel like I want everyone to have I want everyone to see these 465 00:28:57.240 --> 00:29:00.440 amazing things that if I'm writing it, I want everyone to see it because I 466 00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.720 feel proud of it. If I am sharing other people's voice, I want everyone to 467 00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:07.325 see it because they did this labor and people should get to see it. So, 468 00:29:07.325 --> 00:29:10.925 yeah, paywall is always a it's an interesting thing trying to navigate that. 469 00:29:10.925 --> 00:29:14.730 Mhmm. Yeah. I I think it's always a interesting choice too, the ones 470 00:29:14.730 --> 00:29:18.330 that I subscribe to, because I do feel like a 471 00:29:18.330 --> 00:29:21.715 kid who's, like, gotten to go into the candy jar. Because I can 472 00:29:21.715 --> 00:29:25.475 see, you know, oh, if you're a free subscriber, your content ends here. 473 00:29:25.475 --> 00:29:28.340 But the paid people, here's all the rest of the stuff. And I'm like, oh, 474 00:29:28.340 --> 00:29:32.020 I get more stuff. You know? So as a as a community 475 00:29:32.020 --> 00:29:35.460 member, it does feel good as well to see that. So I'm always curious how 476 00:29:35.460 --> 00:29:37.880 that works behind the scenes. So thank you for sharing that. 477 00:29:39.365 --> 00:29:43.125 Tara, I'd like to go to you, next. You also have 478 00:29:43.125 --> 00:29:46.585 a paid tier. You also host workshops 479 00:29:46.760 --> 00:29:50.600 and things, I believe, for the paid tier. What else is include and 480 00:29:50.600 --> 00:29:54.385 you have cuss like, we have special articles for us, like, 481 00:29:54.385 --> 00:29:57.365 2. Am I missing anything in the paid tier? 482 00:29:58.945 --> 00:30:02.690 So I have free workshops that happen every quarter, and I have, 483 00:30:03.330 --> 00:30:07.110 premium articles slash podcast episodes. And then 484 00:30:07.250 --> 00:30:10.965 folks also get a discount on any premium workshops I offer. 485 00:30:10.965 --> 00:30:14.325 So, like, last week, I did a big workshop on world building for business 486 00:30:14.325 --> 00:30:18.085 owners, and my premium subscribers got 487 00:30:18.085 --> 00:30:21.880 25% off the registration for that. So 488 00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:25.640 that's another perk. Oh, and comments. So 489 00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:29.435 the other the other perk for paying subscribers is that they're 490 00:30:29.435 --> 00:30:32.655 the only ones who can leave comments because while I do value, 491 00:30:33.595 --> 00:30:37.420 dialogue on my work. I'm also 492 00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:40.940 very, rejection sensitive, and, 493 00:30:42.280 --> 00:30:46.095 I think that for me and 494 00:30:46.095 --> 00:30:49.475 my emotional, psychological, neurological 495 00:30:49.695 --> 00:30:53.240 makeup, it makes the most sense to have that space open for 496 00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:57.080 people who are invested at some level in 497 00:30:57.080 --> 00:31:00.765 that work. And so I figure, you know, 498 00:31:01.325 --> 00:31:04.945 free subscribers can always find me on notes. It's not like I'm unreachable, 499 00:31:05.565 --> 00:31:09.165 but I only have my comments open for paid subscribers and 500 00:31:09.165 --> 00:31:12.450 only have my email replies open for paid subscribers. 501 00:31:13.230 --> 00:31:16.910 And I know there are varying opinions on 502 00:31:16.910 --> 00:31:20.495 both of those things, but I think 503 00:31:20.495 --> 00:31:23.855 that it's a it's a safety feature. It's 504 00:31:23.855 --> 00:31:27.294 a psychological safety feature, and I think it's a 505 00:31:27.294 --> 00:31:31.090 really, for those who need it or 506 00:31:31.090 --> 00:31:34.930 want it, it's a it's a really powerful move to say, 507 00:31:34.930 --> 00:31:36.070 this is my boundary. 508 00:31:38.284 --> 00:31:42.125 Yeah. Oh, I think it would be interesting for social platforms to 509 00:31:42.125 --> 00:31:45.899 adopt that as well. Because platforms like Instagram, for instance, 510 00:31:45.899 --> 00:31:49.659 also have, like, a paid, section. And there 511 00:31:49.659 --> 00:31:53.345 is, like, a separate comment section, but everyone can still comment on your 512 00:31:53.345 --> 00:31:57.105 own, like, your public posts and in your direct messages. And so I I do 513 00:31:57.105 --> 00:32:00.750 find that interesting, especially as social media 514 00:32:00.810 --> 00:32:04.430 and community online shifts. The smaller 515 00:32:04.490 --> 00:32:08.274 pockets of people, I think we're we're all gonna find a lot more nourishment 516 00:32:08.335 --> 00:32:11.955 from those conversations versus the randoms, 517 00:32:12.015 --> 00:32:15.840 which I know randoms can come into the community, but sometimes being open to 518 00:32:15.840 --> 00:32:19.680 everyone just feels I feel so exposed personally all the time when 519 00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:23.205 I do that. So I feel you there. Yeah. One of the 520 00:32:23.205 --> 00:32:27.045 questions I have for you is how you approach your work. And this 521 00:32:27.045 --> 00:32:30.565 is this is a larger question because it goes beyond just 522 00:32:30.565 --> 00:32:33.730 Substack. But a lot of the work that you do 523 00:32:34.270 --> 00:32:37.810 analyzes the norms of being in the online business space, 524 00:32:38.590 --> 00:32:42.275 while also being a person in the online business space 525 00:32:42.275 --> 00:32:45.955 as a thought leader. I'm always curious when I read your work, 526 00:32:45.955 --> 00:32:49.690 because you so beautifully balance the 2 calling out and 527 00:32:49.690 --> 00:32:53.230 also saying, well, here's what I'm observing and 528 00:32:53.290 --> 00:32:57.035 and, exposing this, and here's how we can make 529 00:32:57.035 --> 00:33:00.715 this better. Or here's my thought process on how I'm making this 530 00:33:00.715 --> 00:33:04.475 better. What is your process to your work and how 531 00:33:04.475 --> 00:33:08.300 you balance the push and pull of not not skewing to 532 00:33:08.300 --> 00:33:12.060 negative and complaining about the online space, but also 533 00:33:12.060 --> 00:33:15.760 being helpful and adding rich insight to the conversation. 534 00:33:16.855 --> 00:33:20.695 Yeah. I think that the last few years for me 535 00:33:20.695 --> 00:33:23.195 have been a real existential 536 00:33:24.135 --> 00:33:27.630 search for who I am in this space in 537 00:33:27.630 --> 00:33:31.470 general. And where I've kind of 538 00:33:31.470 --> 00:33:35.315 ended up or and certainly where my substack, the premise 539 00:33:35.315 --> 00:33:38.995 of my substack is sort of the future of work. 540 00:33:38.995 --> 00:33:42.760 Because I think the future of the work the future of work looks a 541 00:33:42.760 --> 00:33:46.600 lot more like what we think of as online business than what 542 00:33:46.600 --> 00:33:50.415 we think of as the traditional 9 to 5. I mean, with all of the 543 00:33:50.415 --> 00:33:54.015 layoffs that we've seen in media and tech over the 544 00:33:54.015 --> 00:33:57.855 last few years, a lot of those people have just 545 00:33:57.855 --> 00:34:01.220 been scooped right back up into contractor 546 00:34:01.679 --> 00:34:05.519 jobs. And even if they're just working from home now and don't 547 00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:09.255 think of themselves as business owners or entrepreneurs. They're very much 548 00:34:09.255 --> 00:34:12.395 working in the same containers that we all are. 549 00:34:13.094 --> 00:34:16.909 And so that's one way that I make that balance 550 00:34:16.909 --> 00:34:20.350 is it's not, you know, online business this or online 551 00:34:20.350 --> 00:34:23.815 business that, but instead, like, how are we moving 552 00:34:23.815 --> 00:34:27.035 forward into this strange new world of work? 553 00:34:27.975 --> 00:34:31.630 And what are the systems and structures that we can 554 00:34:31.630 --> 00:34:35.309 question as we make that journey together. So that's one 555 00:34:35.309 --> 00:34:39.150 piece. Another piece is that I really don't think 556 00:34:39.150 --> 00:34:42.455 of myself as being in the online business world anymore. 557 00:34:43.315 --> 00:34:46.695 It is something that I'm very familiar with after 558 00:34:46.755 --> 00:34:50.579 15 plus years. It's something that, you know, all 559 00:34:50.579 --> 00:34:54.019 of our podcasting clients in my other company are 560 00:34:54.019 --> 00:34:57.595 involved with in one way or another, but I don't think of 561 00:34:57.595 --> 00:35:01.355 myself as a thought leader in the online business space. 562 00:35:01.355 --> 00:35:05.135 I'm way more interested in being an analyst, 563 00:35:05.195 --> 00:35:08.940 being a critic. And I kind of think 564 00:35:08.940 --> 00:35:12.559 about my mode of critique and analysis 565 00:35:12.940 --> 00:35:16.775 as sense making. And so one of the things that I'm always trying 566 00:35:17.155 --> 00:35:20.935 to do, especially when I am in a critique mode, 567 00:35:21.395 --> 00:35:25.190 is to think, where are the confusing bits 568 00:35:25.190 --> 00:35:28.630 here, and what do I know that can help people make sense of 569 00:35:28.630 --> 00:35:32.230 this? What's my framework for thinking about this? 570 00:35:32.230 --> 00:35:35.945 What's, a philosophical or sociological or political 571 00:35:35.945 --> 00:35:39.464 or economic, idea that I can 572 00:35:39.464 --> 00:35:42.765 bring in to help people feel like 573 00:35:43.290 --> 00:35:46.430 you're not crazy. You're not imagining things. 574 00:35:46.970 --> 00:35:50.730 This is hard, or this shouldn't be like this, or this should 575 00:35:50.730 --> 00:35:54.485 be like this, and really put that all out 576 00:35:54.485 --> 00:35:58.245 on paper as coherently as possible or not 577 00:35:58.245 --> 00:36:02.050 paper, digital paper, I guess, and 578 00:36:02.270 --> 00:36:05.810 use that as my sort of 579 00:36:05.870 --> 00:36:09.494 North Star toward navigating that space where, 580 00:36:09.494 --> 00:36:13.095 no, I don't want to be insulting people's businesses. I don't wanna 581 00:36:13.095 --> 00:36:16.474 be calling people out for whatever practices they have. 582 00:36:17.290 --> 00:36:21.070 And I also always want to be acknowledging 583 00:36:22.010 --> 00:36:25.615 that doing business work in 584 00:36:25.615 --> 00:36:28.755 general in this economy is always a compromise. 585 00:36:29.375 --> 00:36:33.009 If you have values for social justice, if you're a 586 00:36:33.009 --> 00:36:36.369 radical feminist, if you are, a 587 00:36:36.369 --> 00:36:39.750 leftist like me, you're making a compromise 588 00:36:40.734 --> 00:36:44.255 just by living. You have to. There is 589 00:36:44.255 --> 00:36:47.934 no perfect way to do anything. And so that's also something that I 590 00:36:47.934 --> 00:36:51.660 really hold, in terms of navigating the space is, 591 00:36:51.660 --> 00:36:55.100 you know, everyone's gonna make a slightly different decision, and that's 592 00:36:55.100 --> 00:36:58.665 great. We don't all need to be doing the same thing. I don't need to 593 00:36:58.665 --> 00:37:02.425 tell you what I think is stupid or dumb or wrong. What I 594 00:37:02.425 --> 00:37:06.220 need to do is make sense of it for you. Yeah. 595 00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:10.680 It's always a a beautiful thing too when I read your work. My 596 00:37:10.680 --> 00:37:14.440 my little mastermind group, we share your articles and have, like, 597 00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:18.154 conversations in our Voxer channel about them. Because we're always like, oh, 598 00:37:18.154 --> 00:37:21.914 here's an interesting thought. Like, we were all thinking this, but, like, the way 599 00:37:21.914 --> 00:37:25.380 that Tara said it made it clearer to why we feel the way that we 600 00:37:25.380 --> 00:37:28.200 feel about certain things, about the work that we do. 601 00:37:29.060 --> 00:37:32.655 Especially since my mastermind group, we've also 602 00:37:32.655 --> 00:37:36.335 kind of I'm still in the online space, but they kinda spun out 603 00:37:36.335 --> 00:37:40.175 into doing work that could be defined as online business, but 604 00:37:40.175 --> 00:37:43.840 it's not in the online business space. And so it's so 605 00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:47.520 interesting that you called that out as well. And, I love that you 606 00:37:47.520 --> 00:37:51.140 said you consider yourself a critic because I definitely see that as well 607 00:37:51.425 --> 00:37:55.025 in the work that you do. With 608 00:37:55.025 --> 00:37:58.785 the 2 kind of businesses that you 609 00:37:58.785 --> 00:38:02.559 have, with the What Works side of things and 610 00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:06.319 the work that you're doing in Substack and the workshops, where do you 611 00:38:06.319 --> 00:38:09.975 see the future of Substack looking like for you as you 612 00:38:09.975 --> 00:38:13.735 grow the platform? Yeah. I mean, this is, 613 00:38:13.735 --> 00:38:16.540 like, literally a daily question of mine. 614 00:38:17.320 --> 00:38:21.080 I am super duper grateful for the 615 00:38:21.080 --> 00:38:24.380 way Substack is built, for 616 00:38:24.985 --> 00:38:28.345 the you know, my list has doubled in the last year, which is 617 00:38:28.345 --> 00:38:32.185 pretty incredible. I'm really grateful for 618 00:38:32.185 --> 00:38:36.000 that. And there's also some problems with 619 00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:39.780 the platform, not just the, you know, justice and political 620 00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:43.735 problems with the platform, but also, like, some things I would 621 00:38:43.735 --> 00:38:47.355 like to be able to do that I can't currently do. Like, 622 00:38:47.495 --> 00:38:51.060 I'd love to be able to have a pay what you want 623 00:38:51.280 --> 00:38:55.120 premium subscription tier. I can't have that. I'd like to 624 00:38:55.120 --> 00:38:58.960 be able to offer completely integrated, you know, 625 00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:02.805 send me a tip, or, you know, a monetary 626 00:39:02.865 --> 00:39:06.484 tip, not a journalistic tip, although I always take those as well. 627 00:39:08.200 --> 00:39:11.820 And so those are the kinds of things that 628 00:39:12.520 --> 00:39:15.880 make me question what the future is for me with 629 00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:19.685 Substack. They're also clearly moving much 630 00:39:19.685 --> 00:39:21.705 more in the direction of 631 00:39:23.205 --> 00:39:26.810 creating more social media like 632 00:39:27.270 --> 00:39:31.109 features, direct messages. I mean, obviously, notes, 633 00:39:31.109 --> 00:39:34.895 which ironically is what got me on the platform. And now it's 634 00:39:34.895 --> 00:39:38.255 like, wait a second. Is this really working for me? I'm not 635 00:39:38.255 --> 00:39:42.000 sure. So those kinds of things make me 636 00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:45.600 wonder, like, wait a second. Are you going to build the features that would 637 00:39:45.600 --> 00:39:49.365 actually want to make me stay? Or are you building the features 638 00:39:49.585 --> 00:39:52.964 that you think will help you compete with other platforms? Because 639 00:39:53.345 --> 00:39:57.110 as we've all said, I'm not there because it's like 640 00:39:57.110 --> 00:40:00.870 other platforms. I'm there because it's not like other platforms. And 641 00:40:00.870 --> 00:40:04.525 every feature that they build that makes them more like a Facebook 642 00:40:04.525 --> 00:40:08.305 or an Instagram or a TikTok means that 643 00:40:08.525 --> 00:40:12.340 the culture may shift a little bit further in that direction 644 00:40:12.340 --> 00:40:16.180 as well. And I I'm not interested in 645 00:40:16.180 --> 00:40:18.520 that. I'm just not interested in that at all. 646 00:40:19.875 --> 00:40:23.635 So for me, I think on a on a 647 00:40:23.635 --> 00:40:27.395 higher level, what I do in terms of how I 648 00:40:27.395 --> 00:40:31.170 spend my, you know, 35 hours a week that are devoted 649 00:40:31.230 --> 00:40:34.990 to to what works, the newsletter, the podcast. It's more than 650 00:40:34.990 --> 00:40:38.450 that. It's more than 35. Yellow House is just sort of 651 00:40:38.785 --> 00:40:42.465 off to the side. But I am doing the 652 00:40:42.465 --> 00:40:46.200 kind of work today that I have wanted to do my 653 00:40:46.200 --> 00:40:49.740 whole life. I'm doing the kind of work that I know my college 654 00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:53.820 adviser was jealous that he thought I was doing, like, 655 00:40:54.255 --> 00:40:57.855 12 years ago. And now I wanna be like, Jeff, 656 00:40:57.855 --> 00:41:00.355 Jeff, look. Look at what I'm doing now. 657 00:41:01.935 --> 00:41:05.760 Anyhow, so in that way, all I want 658 00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:09.119 is more of this, please. I want to make a 659 00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:12.775 reasonable living writing on the Internet, talking 660 00:41:12.775 --> 00:41:16.615 about the things that I find right and 661 00:41:16.615 --> 00:41:20.375 wrong and in between with the way we work and the way the 662 00:41:20.375 --> 00:41:24.060 world is functions, and, spend a lot of time 663 00:41:24.060 --> 00:41:27.500 reading so that I can write those things, and I would be a 664 00:41:27.500 --> 00:41:29.680 very, very happy person. 665 00:41:32.185 --> 00:41:35.865 Yeah. I agree. I love that. Beautifully, beautifully said. And if if, 666 00:41:36.185 --> 00:41:39.809 if Substack has, like, a TikTok like vertical video moment, I 667 00:41:39.809 --> 00:41:43.329 don't know if I I would stay there anymore. Please please no more 668 00:41:43.329 --> 00:41:46.930 vertical videos, that can stay up that can stay on the other platforms. That's what 669 00:41:46.930 --> 00:41:50.505 they're for. Thank you, Tara. I 670 00:41:50.505 --> 00:41:54.265 wanna put the same question over to you, Becky. What 671 00:41:54.265 --> 00:41:57.085 does the future of Substack look like for you? 672 00:41:58.259 --> 00:42:01.859 I mean, I could just say ditto because I feel the same 673 00:42:01.859 --> 00:42:05.559 way. I mean, as much as I'm enjoying notes as it exists now, 674 00:42:05.700 --> 00:42:09.405 one of the things I like about it is that people aren't posting every 2 675 00:42:09.405 --> 00:42:13.165 seconds like they do on threads or x. And I 676 00:42:13.165 --> 00:42:16.800 love that I can integrate video and audio into 677 00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:20.160 my sub stacks and all of that. I think I think that's wonderful. But do 678 00:42:20.160 --> 00:42:23.620 I want it to become yet another video forward 679 00:42:23.680 --> 00:42:27.055 plus platform where I have like, you I don't want it to be YouTube, I 680 00:42:27.055 --> 00:42:30.255 would be on I would just do YouTube. Alright. Like, I absolutely agree. I don't 681 00:42:30.255 --> 00:42:33.540 want it to be all of those things. I want them to continue to think 682 00:42:33.540 --> 00:42:37.300 about ways that maybe I could customize my my little piece of 683 00:42:37.300 --> 00:42:40.900 substack and make it feel more me. That would be nice. More ways for 684 00:42:40.900 --> 00:42:44.315 people to support me, that would sure be nice. Like, I think that 685 00:42:44.315 --> 00:42:47.214 the tiers are great, but they're not enough. 686 00:42:48.154 --> 00:42:51.700 So I agree. Like, I just as long as it continues 687 00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:54.980 to be what it is now and amplified, 688 00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:59.075 great. The more that it becomes yet another social media platform 689 00:42:59.075 --> 00:43:01.875 that I have to deal with, and as soon as I start getting all the 690 00:43:01.875 --> 00:43:05.494 same level of vitriol and that nonsense there, 691 00:43:05.795 --> 00:43:08.820 I mean, the less likely I'm gonna be interested in sticking around. And I've had 692 00:43:08.820 --> 00:43:12.420 people when I when I made that leap from ConvertKit to Substack, the 693 00:43:12.420 --> 00:43:15.954 marketing folks were very much like, oh, that's a bad idea. 694 00:43:16.415 --> 00:43:19.934 You know, it's one more platform that could evolve, and then it's not what you 695 00:43:19.934 --> 00:43:23.280 want it to be anymore. And I'm I see that that that can happen. I 696 00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:26.600 would just say that what makes it different to me than TikTok or any of 697 00:43:26.600 --> 00:43:30.385 the other places is I still have an email list there. I 698 00:43:30.385 --> 00:43:34.225 can download my CSV file today. And I do frequently download my 699 00:43:34.225 --> 00:43:37.890 CSV file just to be safe, of my subscribers. And I 700 00:43:37.890 --> 00:43:41.490 can take them and I can move and so I may move like I'm not 701 00:43:41.490 --> 00:43:44.895 as much as I'm going all in. That's all in right now. And I reserve 702 00:43:44.895 --> 00:43:48.655 the right to move if it doesn't feel right. And I like that 703 00:43:48.655 --> 00:43:52.275 I can, unlike all the other social media platforms. 704 00:43:52.420 --> 00:43:56.099 But let me tell you, if Substack decides that, hey, you no longer own 705 00:43:56.099 --> 00:43:59.940 your list, I'm out the door. Yeah. That that's a big 706 00:43:59.940 --> 00:44:02.775 one. I've heard a lot of people say that about Substack is, 707 00:44:03.715 --> 00:44:07.315 the reason that they initially made the the transition 708 00:44:07.315 --> 00:44:09.975 over there is because they still felt ownership 709 00:44:10.910 --> 00:44:14.750 over the the folks that are on their list. And they feel like they 710 00:44:14.750 --> 00:44:18.210 don't feel like they're locked in. Whereas, you know, traditional 711 00:44:18.270 --> 00:44:21.825 social platforms, you can't decide to 712 00:44:21.825 --> 00:44:25.505 go from, you know, Instagram to Facebook and just pull those people from that 713 00:44:25.505 --> 00:44:29.060 platform over to this one. It's a very, very tough transition to make. So, 714 00:44:29.620 --> 00:44:33.240 I like that. Do you have anything in the future for feminist founders? 715 00:44:33.300 --> 00:44:36.974 Any fun future projects? Well, 716 00:44:37.035 --> 00:44:40.555 I am currently right here, but soon to go from my 717 00:44:40.555 --> 00:44:44.210 head actually out into some planning mode. My 1 year 718 00:44:44.210 --> 00:44:47.810 anniversary on Substack will have the launch. I I sat on 719 00:44:47.810 --> 00:44:51.565 Substack for a year waiting to actually take action. But a year from the 720 00:44:51.565 --> 00:44:55.164 launch and the launch of the podcast, I'm gonna be doing a celebration. I this 721 00:44:55.164 --> 00:44:58.785 will be something that'll be only for paid subscribers, and I'm planning a little, 722 00:44:59.404 --> 00:45:02.910 sort of mini summit sort of thing that will exist 723 00:45:02.910 --> 00:45:06.750 inside of substack. So video interviews, but it will be 724 00:45:06.750 --> 00:45:10.585 only for paid subscribers. So that'll be coming up towards the fall depending on 725 00:45:10.585 --> 00:45:14.425 when this airs that maybe sooner or later. Yeah. Love it. I can't wait 726 00:45:14.425 --> 00:45:18.120 to see it. Thank you, Becky. Kathleen, same question. 727 00:45:18.340 --> 00:45:21.320 What does the future of substack look like for you? 728 00:45:22.020 --> 00:45:25.865 Yeah. So I feel like I'm at a different place 729 00:45:25.925 --> 00:45:29.685 in my work, and things are winding down, to be 730 00:45:29.685 --> 00:45:33.470 honest, with the one to one coaching, as 731 00:45:33.470 --> 00:45:37.070 well as sort of finding my way. I'm, 732 00:45:37.070 --> 00:45:40.715 I'm in a bit of flux with transitioning. I 733 00:45:40.715 --> 00:45:44.475 think I'll probably move towards consent education in the 734 00:45:44.475 --> 00:45:48.270 ways that I have learned it and learned, for my own 735 00:45:48.430 --> 00:45:51.950 for my work and for my life. What I've also 736 00:45:51.950 --> 00:45:55.390 learned in with social it it 737 00:45:55.390 --> 00:45:58.515 happened with Instagram, that I 738 00:45:58.815 --> 00:46:02.194 found myself as a writer in a way that I never 739 00:46:02.255 --> 00:46:05.630 knew. And the kind of the 740 00:46:05.630 --> 00:46:09.410 heartbreak of part of my story with Instagram 741 00:46:09.470 --> 00:46:13.164 is when I got really honest about what, you 742 00:46:13.164 --> 00:46:16.765 know, addiction recovery and drug use and all of 743 00:46:16.765 --> 00:46:20.204 those really, really intimate parts of me that I was sharing on social media 744 00:46:20.204 --> 00:46:23.140 is ultimately what got me shut down. 745 00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:27.140 I unfortunately lost all that content. 746 00:46:28.115 --> 00:46:31.635 And so the future of subtech looks like, for 747 00:46:31.635 --> 00:46:35.475 me, it's a bit of, I think, sort of like 748 00:46:35.475 --> 00:46:38.520 a coffee table book, a memoir. 749 00:46:40.740 --> 00:46:44.500 I I really I have beautiful graphics. I feel 750 00:46:44.500 --> 00:46:48.204 like it's a place where there's a soft landing. 751 00:46:48.825 --> 00:46:52.125 You know, I love and appreciate words so deeply. 752 00:46:52.744 --> 00:46:56.560 And the art of that feels like home to me. And 753 00:46:56.860 --> 00:47:00.560 so the sub sec, I think will become much more personal, 754 00:47:01.500 --> 00:47:04.994 and less about my work and less about the journey 755 00:47:05.055 --> 00:47:08.415 and more just kind of the expression of who I am and who I 756 00:47:08.415 --> 00:47:11.795 became through this work. And 757 00:47:12.430 --> 00:47:15.569 like I said, I I think I'm getting to the point where 758 00:47:16.829 --> 00:47:20.270 19 years of coaching has kind of gotten me to the place where I can 759 00:47:20.270 --> 00:47:23.645 put it down and, pick up some other passions. 760 00:47:24.265 --> 00:47:27.865 Yes. Beautifully said. I love that. And thank you all for 761 00:47:27.865 --> 00:47:31.530 hanging out with me today and letting me dig into the behind the 762 00:47:31.530 --> 00:47:35.130 scenes of your substacks. I will continue to be a fan, and I 763 00:47:35.130 --> 00:47:38.570 hope all of you listening and watching this episode will be a 764 00:47:38.570 --> 00:47:41.744 fan. So head on over to the show notes, onlinedraya.com/311 765 00:47:44.125 --> 00:47:47.569 for episode 311, and check out 766 00:47:47.569 --> 00:47:51.109 everyone's Substack. Please, please, please go and look at these Substack's. 767 00:47:51.410 --> 00:47:54.915 Get inspiration if you're thinking about starting a Substack, if you're on Substack, 768 00:47:55.715 --> 00:47:59.075 if you're a marketer and you're looking for ways how you can bring 769 00:47:59.075 --> 00:48:02.920 Substack to your clients, I think these are all really great examples of 770 00:48:02.920 --> 00:48:06.280 what's possible on the platform. So thank you all for joining me 771 00:48:06.280 --> 00:48:09.799 today. Also make sure you head on over to Apple 772 00:48:09.799 --> 00:48:13.445 Podcasts or Spotify. Leave us a 5 star rating. Helps keep us in the top 773 00:48:13.445 --> 00:48:17.225 100 marketing podcasts, all for your support for listening to the show. 774 00:48:17.285 --> 00:48:20.725 I'll see you next week with another beautiful episode. Thanks so 775 00:48:20.725 --> 00:48:22.185 much. Bye for now.