1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,480 Do you ever feel like your brand is just another face in the 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:08,240 crowd? Well, today, I have a super special guest on the podcast to talk 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,000 about how branding and marketing are joining forces and and and and 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,545 the best part, why we are ditching the outdated label 5 00:00:15,545 --> 00:00:19,305 of underrepresented. That's the reason I wanted to talk 6 00:00:19,305 --> 00:00:23,145 with Chloé Nwangwu on the podcast today. But first, hi. Welcome. 7 00:00:23,145 --> 00:00:26,825 If this is your first time, we are the Mindful Marketing Podcast. This is episode 8 00:00:26,825 --> 00:00:30,290 number 327, and I'm all about helping 9 00:00:30,290 --> 00:00:34,130 you scroll less and create more impact with the work that 10 00:00:34,130 --> 00:00:37,830 you do. And today's guest, Chloé Nwangwu, 11 00:00:38,050 --> 00:00:41,830 welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. 12 00:00:42,195 --> 00:00:44,855 I'm very excited to talk with you. When I saw this, 13 00:00:45,555 --> 00:00:49,235 topic come across my desk, so to speak, I was like, oh, 14 00:00:49,235 --> 00:00:52,595 yes. We need to talk about this. But I wanna talk a little bit about 15 00:00:52,595 --> 00:00:56,215 your background first. How did you get into branding 16 00:00:56,275 --> 00:00:59,899 and marketing? Yeah. So this is a funny story. 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,960 I will try to keep it brief, because I didn't go to school for 18 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,479 marketing or branding or business or any of 19 00:01:07,479 --> 00:01:10,940 this. I was trained in international 20 00:01:11,159 --> 00:01:14,914 conflict resolution and mediation. So essentially, I was 21 00:01:14,914 --> 00:01:18,515 trained to facilitate peace negotiations in the context of civil 22 00:01:18,515 --> 00:01:21,335 war. So that's just a light light 23 00:01:22,674 --> 00:01:26,380 study topic. Totally light. Totally light. So 24 00:01:26,380 --> 00:01:29,440 basically, social psychology in super high stakes situations. 25 00:01:30,060 --> 00:01:33,660 Yeah. And I got into the work that I do 26 00:01:33,660 --> 00:01:37,200 now because I noticed 27 00:01:37,740 --> 00:01:41,445 that folks who should have been 28 00:01:41,585 --> 00:01:45,185 at the negotiating table, in order for those 29 00:01:45,185 --> 00:01:49,025 negotiations to actually be sustainable and last 30 00:01:49,025 --> 00:01:52,680 past 5 or 10 years, some of these folks weren't even getting in the 31 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,380 door. And from a practitioner standpoint, that was a problem, 32 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,060 especially since my speciality was on 33 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,420 using what we know about the human mind and 34 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,425 human relationships and the ways those things interact, using 35 00:02:07,425 --> 00:02:11,185 what we know about those things to make these settlements more likely to 36 00:02:11,185 --> 00:02:14,945 happen and more likely to last. Right. That was my focus. And so 37 00:02:14,945 --> 00:02:18,705 the fact that people who really should have been in these rooms weren't, that was 38 00:02:18,705 --> 00:02:22,440 a problem for me. So I started investigating and looking into, okay, 39 00:02:22,659 --> 00:02:26,500 why why is this happening even in a place like, you know, at 40 00:02:26,500 --> 00:02:30,340 the UN where everyone is very educated and has the 41 00:02:30,340 --> 00:02:34,135 best intentions and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, How can this sort 42 00:02:34,135 --> 00:02:37,975 of thing still be happening? And how 43 00:02:37,975 --> 00:02:41,735 can we fix it? And the realization that I came 44 00:02:41,735 --> 00:02:45,415 to at the end of the day was brands. Brands is how we 45 00:02:45,415 --> 00:02:49,220 fix it. That every nation state that I 46 00:02:49,220 --> 00:02:52,920 have ever worked with, that I have ever liaised with, they all have brands. 47 00:02:53,459 --> 00:02:57,300 And those brands teach others how to treat you. So there are 48 00:02:57,300 --> 00:03:01,140 certain reasons that we don't make certain moves with, like, Germany or France or 49 00:03:01,140 --> 00:03:04,795 the US. Right? Because their brands have informed us, have taught us how 50 00:03:04,795 --> 00:03:08,415 they'll respond. And so what I 51 00:03:08,475 --> 00:03:11,835 learned from that time of research and study and 52 00:03:11,835 --> 00:03:15,515 investigation was that I could and others could 53 00:03:15,515 --> 00:03:19,295 use brands for the purpose of getting folks in the door. Right? 54 00:03:19,640 --> 00:03:23,420 To teach others how to treat the folks that they'd been 55 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,840 overlooking before. So that's how I got into this 56 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,360 work. Oh, that is so fascinating. So you 57 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,975 studied this, like, liaison, you know, we're 58 00:03:33,975 --> 00:03:37,735 we're helping people communicate. We're studying human psychology. When did you start 59 00:03:37,735 --> 00:03:41,275 your business out of all of that? Yeah. So my business 60 00:03:41,335 --> 00:03:45,095 officially started, I wanna say I'm probably in year 7 right 61 00:03:45,095 --> 00:03:48,420 now. And so I'll say that 62 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,740 my business had already sort of existed 63 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,180 in some form by the time this research 64 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,780 began. But at the time it wasn't really 65 00:04:00,785 --> 00:04:04,385 brand focused. Right? Like, that's that's not what the focus was because that you know, 66 00:04:04,385 --> 00:04:08,004 I hadn't come to that answer. I was working on 67 00:04:08,065 --> 00:04:11,905 the civil war in Yemen. And so I will say this was 68 00:04:11,905 --> 00:04:15,125 probably I wanna say this was 2019, 2020. 69 00:04:15,730 --> 00:04:19,089 It was a very junior member of this team, so I cannot stress how junior 70 00:04:19,089 --> 00:04:22,690 a member I was on this team. And, we were 71 00:04:22,690 --> 00:04:26,450 brought in by an ethnic minority in Yemen who was 72 00:04:26,450 --> 00:04:30,210 not yet a part of the peace process. And our job was to make 73 00:04:30,210 --> 00:04:33,555 them part of the peace process. Right? And they were a pretty sizable chunk of 74 00:04:33,555 --> 00:04:37,235 the population. So the fact that they weren't was a problem, right, again, 75 00:04:37,235 --> 00:04:40,915 from an efficacy standpoint. And it 76 00:04:40,915 --> 00:04:44,675 was really in the process of making this happen. And 77 00:04:44,675 --> 00:04:48,470 yes, spoiler alert, they did end up becoming part of the peace process, 78 00:04:48,850 --> 00:04:52,449 but it was as we were making that happen that my 79 00:04:52,449 --> 00:04:56,050 business really took that turn and said, oh, it's 80 00:04:56,050 --> 00:04:59,350 brands. And we need to be looking at them from a scientific 81 00:05:00,195 --> 00:05:03,955 perspective. That's what's going on. It was during that period in 82 00:05:03,955 --> 00:05:07,715 time. Yeah. Okay. That's so fascinating. And I know one 83 00:05:07,715 --> 00:05:11,175 of the questions that often comes up when we start talking about branding 84 00:05:11,794 --> 00:05:15,530 is is how is that different from marketing? Like, what what are the 85 00:05:15,530 --> 00:05:19,290 key differences between branding and marketing? Yeah. Yeah. So 86 00:05:19,290 --> 00:05:22,810 what I would say is that marketing is when you are 87 00:05:22,810 --> 00:05:26,650 leveraging memorable assets to tell people about what 88 00:05:26,650 --> 00:05:30,425 you do, and then it's also the process of 89 00:05:30,425 --> 00:05:34,025 refreshing people's memories of, of that. Right? That's what I would 90 00:05:34,025 --> 00:05:37,784 consider marketing to be. Branding is the 91 00:05:37,784 --> 00:05:41,580 development of those memorable assets. And I realize as 92 00:05:41,580 --> 00:05:45,020 I say this now, that might actually help to back things 93 00:05:45,020 --> 00:05:48,860 up and actually give the definition of what a brand is. And I 94 00:05:48,860 --> 00:05:52,300 know that this seems like it would be super elementary and 95 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:55,600 also super annoying because there are a million 96 00:05:56,675 --> 00:06:00,455 definitions of what a brand is. Right? But from a scientific perspective, 97 00:06:00,995 --> 00:06:04,755 I think it's interesting to look at this. A brand is 98 00:06:04,755 --> 00:06:08,355 simply a system of ideas that influences the 99 00:06:08,355 --> 00:06:11,975 behavior of other people. Okay. 100 00:06:12,409 --> 00:06:15,930 Said another way, it's a kind of influential real estate in 101 00:06:15,930 --> 00:06:19,310 someone's head. And so when we are talking about 102 00:06:20,409 --> 00:06:24,030 branding, right? We want to understand 103 00:06:24,409 --> 00:06:28,095 that in order for a brand or really 104 00:06:28,095 --> 00:06:31,775 anything, but in order for the system of ideas to be 105 00:06:31,775 --> 00:06:35,455 influential, to influence behavior, at 106 00:06:35,455 --> 00:06:39,135 the very minimum, it has to be memorable. It 107 00:06:39,135 --> 00:06:42,330 has to been remembered at some point in time. Right? 108 00:06:43,190 --> 00:06:47,030 And that's where these memorable assets come in because they 109 00:06:47,030 --> 00:06:50,710 serve as sort of memory anchors. Every time you see or 110 00:06:50,710 --> 00:06:54,310 hear or interact with a brand's branding or their 111 00:06:54,310 --> 00:06:58,005 memorable assets, you are if the branding is doing its 112 00:06:58,005 --> 00:07:01,065 job, you are reminded of that system of ideas. 113 00:07:01,444 --> 00:07:05,285 Right? So that's that's what that's 114 00:07:05,285 --> 00:07:09,044 what the interplay there is. And I'd say 115 00:07:09,044 --> 00:07:12,449 it's a bonus brand strategy then in that 116 00:07:12,449 --> 00:07:16,129 situation. Brand strategy is sort of the development of that 117 00:07:16,129 --> 00:07:19,669 system of ideas that those assets refer to. 118 00:07:20,050 --> 00:07:23,729 Okay. That's so interesting. So for those listening, y'all 119 00:07:23,729 --> 00:07:27,385 know I've gone through the rebranding process. And 120 00:07:27,685 --> 00:07:31,305 I feel like you really nailed down that 121 00:07:31,365 --> 00:07:34,345 definition of it because there's so much sculpted 122 00:07:34,965 --> 00:07:38,805 into this rebrand that really is, like, me ideating on 123 00:07:38,805 --> 00:07:42,410 how I want to be perceived Mhmm. And how I 124 00:07:42,410 --> 00:07:46,090 assume other people will perceive me based on, you know, visual 125 00:07:46,090 --> 00:07:49,870 cues, my stories that I tell, the words that I use. Yep. 126 00:07:50,010 --> 00:07:53,210 Even some of, like you know, I I tend to use, like, a lot of 127 00:07:53,210 --> 00:07:56,665 Internet culture references. I literally will say the word hashtag 128 00:07:56,805 --> 00:08:00,405 sometimes when I'm like, that's hashtag awesome. You know, things like that where it's 129 00:08:00,405 --> 00:08:04,165 like it's the whole vibe that it that I've packaged up. 130 00:08:04,165 --> 00:08:07,925 And so just being, like, really clear on that has 131 00:08:07,925 --> 00:08:10,990 been like, it's it's a painful process. Honestly, 132 00:08:11,690 --> 00:08:15,210 like, I never wanna do it again. Yeah. It it 133 00:08:15,210 --> 00:08:18,890 absolutely can be. It absolutely can be. And that's I mean, and 134 00:08:18,890 --> 00:08:22,270 I'm really glad that you brought up the idea of perception. Right? Because 135 00:08:22,765 --> 00:08:26,445 that's sort of the other side of, of brand strategy, I would 136 00:08:26,445 --> 00:08:30,205 say, right? That you are trying to develop a plan for bridging 137 00:08:30,205 --> 00:08:33,265 the gap between that system of ideas 138 00:08:34,125 --> 00:08:37,870 and the stakeholders that exist in the ecosystem around you. Right? 139 00:08:37,870 --> 00:08:41,169 Yeah. And so in order to do that, yeah, you're absolutely 140 00:08:41,629 --> 00:08:44,610 leveraging, influencing, shaping 141 00:08:45,310 --> 00:08:48,910 perception, the impressions that folks have of you, because that's going to be 142 00:08:48,910 --> 00:08:52,430 required. That's going to be the foundation, the soil for the 143 00:08:52,430 --> 00:08:56,025 influence of that system of ideas needs to have in order to be effective. 144 00:08:56,965 --> 00:09:00,405 Yeah. Okay. So do you have an example of, like, a 145 00:09:00,405 --> 00:09:04,165 really strong brand and what that looks like? Yeah. 146 00:09:04,645 --> 00:09:08,450 Okay. I there's so many examples that I can give. The ones that that 147 00:09:08,450 --> 00:09:12,130 came to mind immediately, the ones that are making me laugh right now are Jake 148 00:09:12,130 --> 00:09:15,910 from State Farm Okay. Yep. 149 00:09:16,370 --> 00:09:19,430 And, the Doritos logo. Now 150 00:09:21,134 --> 00:09:24,894 I know that that's kind of unusual. This looks to be like, not Beyonce, not 151 00:09:24,894 --> 00:09:28,675 blah, blah, blah. Okay. Work with me. Give me some rope. Okay. 152 00:09:28,975 --> 00:09:32,735 So Jake from State Farm, for those who are unfamiliar, is 153 00:09:32,735 --> 00:09:36,540 this guy who ostensibly is an agent 154 00:09:36,540 --> 00:09:40,160 at State Farm. Right? And he shows up in all of their commercials. 155 00:09:40,459 --> 00:09:44,300 And he's been a part of their branding for over 156 00:09:44,300 --> 00:09:47,899 a decade at this point. They there was an an origin 157 00:09:47,899 --> 00:09:51,565 story. There was, like, a literal baton toss to, you know, 158 00:09:51,705 --> 00:09:55,465 another actor who's playing Jake from State Farm. And now we have, like, the 159 00:09:55,465 --> 00:09:58,985 younger, cuter, more racially ambiguous guy who's 160 00:09:58,985 --> 00:10:02,600 currently playing Jake from State Farm. Okay? So, like, someone knew what they 161 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,200 were doing. Right? The first Jake from State Farm 162 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,960 commercial was so memorable, was so 163 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,940 well done that, goodness, 164 00:10:15,475 --> 00:10:19,074 That people still associate it 165 00:10:19,074 --> 00:10:22,755 with State Farm and that's remember when I mentioned that a brand's 166 00:10:22,755 --> 00:10:26,375 branding serves as a mental anchor, right? Anytime 167 00:10:26,675 --> 00:10:30,320 someone sees your branding, you know that that 168 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,780 branding is doing a good job if they immediately think 169 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,240 of your brand. Yeah. Jake from State Farm is one of those. 170 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,915 Right? I I remember that I was watching the 171 00:10:41,915 --> 00:10:45,755 review of a movie that I would never watch, and I happened to 172 00:10:45,755 --> 00:10:48,955 see the actor who plays Jake from State Farm in, like, one of the screen 173 00:10:48,955 --> 00:10:51,455 captures. And I said out loud, 174 00:10:52,635 --> 00:10:56,095 apropos of nothing, to a room of strangers, 175 00:10:56,250 --> 00:11:00,090 Is that Jake from State Farm, like, actually said this out loud? Right? And 176 00:11:00,090 --> 00:11:03,450 that's the reaction that you want people to have when they see your various branding 177 00:11:03,450 --> 00:11:06,830 assets. Right? That's a really, really 178 00:11:06,970 --> 00:11:10,590 strong piece of branding. Right? Yeah. 179 00:11:11,130 --> 00:11:14,944 Doritos logo? We could talk about that another time. Does 180 00:11:14,944 --> 00:11:18,704 the same job. Did the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. It the all of these 181 00:11:18,704 --> 00:11:21,685 examples are so memorable. I think about, the flow 182 00:11:22,144 --> 00:11:25,904 lady from Yes. Exactly. From Progressive. From Progressive. Yeah. 183 00:11:25,904 --> 00:11:29,740 Or even the duck or, like, Aflac. Like Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. 184 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,160 Like, why do we know all of these things is because it the anchor. I 185 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,000 love that you said that word anchor. So when I'm thinking about anchors, what 186 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,680 are some examples of branding anchors? Like, what are like, 187 00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:44,175 especially when I think about the people who are listening to this podcast, you know, 188 00:11:44,575 --> 00:11:48,035 service providers, course creators, marketers, like, 189 00:11:48,334 --> 00:11:52,115 what are the anchors that we need to think about incorporating into our brand? Yeah. 190 00:11:52,255 --> 00:11:56,095 So, honestly, the answer I'm about to give is gonna suck, 191 00:11:56,095 --> 00:11:59,490 and I'm sorry. It depends. It really does depend. But 192 00:11:59,490 --> 00:12:02,850 a good, model that you can use to sort 193 00:12:02,850 --> 00:12:06,390 of think this through are our senses. 194 00:12:06,530 --> 00:12:10,210 Right? You want to have at least one set of 195 00:12:10,210 --> 00:12:13,875 assets that deal with what we can see. Right? And folks, 196 00:12:14,355 --> 00:12:17,955 when folks are thinking about branding, they're usually thinking, oh, a logo and a 197 00:12:17,955 --> 00:12:21,555 color palette and typeface and, like, all of these things. Right? That's one 198 00:12:21,555 --> 00:12:25,235 modality. That's one modality of branding. Right? Then 199 00:12:25,235 --> 00:12:28,760 you want to think about stuff that we can hear. Right? 200 00:12:28,820 --> 00:12:32,340 Sometimes folks do that with taglines and, like a good 201 00:12:32,340 --> 00:12:35,880 neighbor. Right? Jingles. Right? Things like that. Right? 202 00:12:37,140 --> 00:12:40,920 Folks who are going really deeply into this then can look into 203 00:12:40,980 --> 00:12:44,375 things that we can smell. Right? Especially if you have a physical 204 00:12:44,375 --> 00:12:47,815 location, things that we can touch and feel when 205 00:12:47,815 --> 00:12:51,435 you send the package. Right? Like, how does the box feel? 206 00:12:51,495 --> 00:12:55,095 How does the product, you know, like, x things like that. Right? So if you 207 00:12:55,095 --> 00:12:58,830 look at our different sensory modalities and you can 208 00:12:58,830 --> 00:13:02,270 come up with reasonable anchors, right, 209 00:13:02,270 --> 00:13:05,950 memory anchors for at least 2, but like 210 00:13:05,950 --> 00:13:09,490 stretch to do 3 of them, then you're in pretty good shape. 211 00:13:09,870 --> 00:13:13,415 Yeah. Okay. Beautiful. I love that. One of the things that 212 00:13:13,415 --> 00:13:16,775 always comes up too when I think about branding is this concept 213 00:13:16,775 --> 00:13:20,215 of, creating a story line. And you mentioned this 214 00:13:20,215 --> 00:13:24,055 with the Jake character, how there's an origin story and there's a passing 215 00:13:24,055 --> 00:13:27,770 of baton. So when we're thinking about creating 216 00:13:27,770 --> 00:13:30,890 or building stories in our marketing, what are some of the things we should ask 217 00:13:30,890 --> 00:13:34,730 ourselves as we're trying to decide if this is a story that 218 00:13:34,730 --> 00:13:38,365 lends to branding or are we just kinda having fun? Yeah. 219 00:13:38,365 --> 00:13:42,045 That's a really good question. So the thing about stories is 220 00:13:42,045 --> 00:13:45,884 that they are a tool. They're 221 00:13:45,884 --> 00:13:49,345 a tool that well, as as far as we 222 00:13:49,725 --> 00:13:53,540 know so far with the science, I have to, like, add all of the possible 223 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,280 caveats. Right? Like, given what we currently know about the human 224 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,640 brain, many of us are 225 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,265 predisposed to processing things 226 00:14:04,404 --> 00:14:07,925 as stories. Right? This is why they're used so often. This is why they're such 227 00:14:07,925 --> 00:14:11,445 a useful tool. Right? At the end of the day, we are in the business 228 00:14:11,445 --> 00:14:15,125 of behavior change. Right? No matter who we are. Whether or not that's 229 00:14:15,125 --> 00:14:18,860 getting someone to go from not buying from us to buying from 230 00:14:18,860 --> 00:14:22,300 us, voting to not voting, or vice 231 00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:26,060 versa. Right? Whatever it happens to be. We're in the business of behavior change. 232 00:14:26,060 --> 00:14:29,839 What we want to be able to do is to motivate 233 00:14:30,584 --> 00:14:33,885 that behavior change. And so 234 00:14:34,105 --> 00:14:37,485 if the storytelling that you are doing 235 00:14:38,024 --> 00:14:41,805 beat for beat for beat is contributing 236 00:14:42,105 --> 00:14:45,084 to and pushing forward motivationally 237 00:14:46,430 --> 00:14:50,270 the various stakeholders that surround your brand, then that's 238 00:14:50,270 --> 00:14:54,029 something that you wanna do. Then you know that you're doing a good job. Then 239 00:14:54,029 --> 00:14:57,550 you know that you should be storytelling, and you're not just having 240 00:14:57,550 --> 00:15:01,390 fun. And I know that that's a bit abstract, but 241 00:15:01,390 --> 00:15:05,175 it honestly really does depend on the kind of brand that we're talking about and, 242 00:15:05,175 --> 00:15:08,695 and what it is they're trying to accomplish. I'll give, I'll give a 243 00:15:08,695 --> 00:15:11,515 small concrete example to, to help here. 244 00:15:12,455 --> 00:15:15,515 Something that a lot of folks will do 245 00:15:15,860 --> 00:15:19,560 is they will develop what are called sort of category 246 00:15:19,620 --> 00:15:23,380 entry points, right? And a category entry point 247 00:15:23,380 --> 00:15:26,980 is essentially a scenario within which someone might 248 00:15:26,980 --> 00:15:30,435 consider using or leveraging your brand. Right? 249 00:15:30,654 --> 00:15:34,095 And this is why I said that we're in the business of behavior change, right? 250 00:15:34,095 --> 00:15:37,935 Because in order to change someone's behavior, like I said before, we've gotta be 251 00:15:37,935 --> 00:15:41,694 memorable. And the reason for that is because when 252 00:15:41,694 --> 00:15:45,430 someone sits down to make a decision, what they're actually doing 253 00:15:45,430 --> 00:15:49,190 is they're pulling up their shortlist of candidates and saying, okay, which seems like 254 00:15:49,190 --> 00:15:52,570 the best? And they're picking 1 and then they're going with it. Right? 255 00:15:53,110 --> 00:15:56,865 And so you want your storytelling to support that process. That's 256 00:15:56,865 --> 00:16:00,565 where category entry points come in. So if you're 257 00:16:00,625 --> 00:16:04,305 if you're going to try and leverage storytelling, I would 258 00:16:04,305 --> 00:16:07,920 suggest starting there, starting with a category entry point. 259 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,839 What is a scenario within which someone might leverage your 260 00:16:11,839 --> 00:16:15,440 brand? Tell a story from that particular frame of 261 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,660 reference and make sure that you are, 262 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,154 as I said, beat for beat for beat, managing 263 00:16:24,255 --> 00:16:28,035 and leveraging and guiding their motivations 264 00:16:28,255 --> 00:16:31,855 towards the behavior change you're trying to have happen. So that's what I will say 265 00:16:31,855 --> 00:16:35,470 on that. It's a very wide complicated topic, but Yeah. 266 00:16:35,670 --> 00:16:39,450 I hope that helps. No. It's super fascinating. And I think 267 00:16:39,750 --> 00:16:43,590 the words that we use are so important to help with 268 00:16:43,590 --> 00:16:47,190 that decision making process. And one of the words you used when you, 269 00:16:47,830 --> 00:16:51,415 when we were kind of, like, planning out this episode is this term 270 00:16:51,635 --> 00:16:55,475 underrepresented. Mhmm. And I do see it a lot. 271 00:16:55,475 --> 00:16:58,435 That term and the term gosh. I can't think of the other one that I'm 272 00:16:58,435 --> 00:17:02,055 thinking of right now. Underrepresented, is the main one. 273 00:17:02,195 --> 00:17:05,950 And so when I think about the term underrepresented, you talk 274 00:17:05,950 --> 00:17:09,630 about moving away from this idea. Can you 275 00:17:09,630 --> 00:17:13,150 talk to us a little bit more about why you're on this 276 00:17:13,150 --> 00:17:16,990 mission? Yeah. Yeah. So honestly, it 277 00:17:16,990 --> 00:17:20,535 is because underrepresentation and a 278 00:17:20,535 --> 00:17:23,675 lot of the other language that we use to discuss that phenomenon 279 00:17:24,295 --> 00:17:27,975 are actually just symptoms. Right? And 280 00:17:27,975 --> 00:17:31,735 and I'll take you back to the example that I brought up with the the 281 00:17:31,735 --> 00:17:35,300 the civil war in Yemen. Right? And the folks who weren't even 282 00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:38,820 getting in the door. Right? Yeah. They were an 283 00:17:38,820 --> 00:17:42,580 underrepresented ethnic minority. Right? But the fact 284 00:17:42,580 --> 00:17:46,180 that they were underrepresented was not why they weren't getting through the door. It was 285 00:17:46,180 --> 00:17:49,395 just a symptom of they're not getting through the door. Right? 286 00:17:50,895 --> 00:17:54,735 And when we use the term underrepresented, what that 287 00:17:54,735 --> 00:17:58,575 does is a lot of things, but it it, one, pretends that this 288 00:17:58,575 --> 00:18:02,400 is just a scenario that happened to be the case. Right? I don't know 289 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,080 how it happened to be the case that folks became underrepresented, but it just so 290 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,760 happens to me. Right? But there's no active doer. 291 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,660 There's no active agent when we're talking about underrepresentation. 292 00:18:13,835 --> 00:18:17,515 And then on top of that, it puts the impetus on the folks who 293 00:18:17,515 --> 00:18:20,735 are underrepresented to fix the problem. Right? 294 00:18:21,835 --> 00:18:25,275 So underrepresented has a lot of issues with 295 00:18:25,275 --> 00:18:28,900 it and actually contributes a lot of harm. 296 00:18:28,900 --> 00:18:32,740 And for folks who are interested in reading more about this, I do have an 297 00:18:32,740 --> 00:18:35,700 article in the Harvard Business Review that I wrote about it, and I can sort 298 00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:39,060 of include that in the resource page that will be linked, I'm sure, in the 299 00:18:39,060 --> 00:18:42,075 show notes. And so that's 300 00:18:42,875 --> 00:18:46,394 that's why I feel like we need to move away from that term in 301 00:18:46,394 --> 00:18:50,155 terms that are like it. And I know I'm jumping 302 00:18:50,155 --> 00:18:53,615 in jumping jumping the insert appropriate 303 00:18:53,674 --> 00:18:56,960 metaphor here, but, but that's why 304 00:18:57,179 --> 00:19:00,320 I like the term under recognized instead. 305 00:19:01,020 --> 00:19:04,540 Ah, okay. That that yeah. That was gonna be my next question is, you know, 306 00:19:04,540 --> 00:19:08,380 if we're not saying underrepresented, under 307 00:19:08,380 --> 00:19:11,935 recognized is a good replacement. And I think too, 308 00:19:11,935 --> 00:19:15,775 underrecognized, when I hear that, it 309 00:19:15,775 --> 00:19:19,615 does feel like it could be situational as 310 00:19:19,615 --> 00:19:23,375 well. Yeah. So talk to me more about using the 311 00:19:23,375 --> 00:19:25,955 term underrecognized instead of underrepresented. 312 00:19:27,169 --> 00:19:30,690 Yeah. So one of the things that I love about the term under recognized is 313 00:19:30,690 --> 00:19:34,289 that it allows us to say, yep. There's an active agent here. Right? There is 314 00:19:34,289 --> 00:19:37,970 someone doing the under recognizing. Right? And that also 315 00:19:37,970 --> 00:19:41,635 means that the folks with the power to actually 316 00:19:41,855 --> 00:19:45,615 shift the situation are now in the position to do so. 317 00:19:45,615 --> 00:19:49,055 Right? Because they're like, oh, I'm under recognizing someone. So now my 318 00:19:49,055 --> 00:19:52,830 behavior needs to change. So that's one thing I love about it, right? 319 00:19:52,830 --> 00:19:55,970 That it puts the impetus where it needs to be. It also 320 00:19:56,590 --> 00:20:00,429 gets us to focus on behaviors rather than, you know, 321 00:20:00,429 --> 00:20:03,410 passive scenarios. And on top of that, 322 00:20:04,190 --> 00:20:07,575 it points to this reality, which is really at the 323 00:20:07,575 --> 00:20:11,175 center of all the work that I do. And the reality is 324 00:20:11,175 --> 00:20:14,635 this, that our attention is not neutral. 325 00:20:15,975 --> 00:20:19,275 We have been all of us have been conditioned 326 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,980 to overlook and underappreciate the 327 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,840 contributions and ideas of certain kinds 328 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,600 of people. Right? And from a mechanical standpoint, what that means is 329 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,434 that our attention is allocated in discriminatory 330 00:20:35,575 --> 00:20:39,414 ways as the status quo. And so often what 331 00:20:39,414 --> 00:20:43,095 that looks like is certain kinds of 332 00:20:43,095 --> 00:20:46,855 people like that ethnic minority in Yemen or, you know, folks like 333 00:20:46,855 --> 00:20:50,580 you and me. Right? It'll almost be like you 334 00:20:50,580 --> 00:20:54,100 have an invisibility cloak on and, like, not in the fun way. 335 00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:57,860 Right? Sometimes you want an invisibility cloak, right, so that you can go 336 00:20:57,860 --> 00:21:01,059 off and do all sorts of fun stuff. But not when you're trying to run 337 00:21:01,059 --> 00:21:04,575 a business. Right? Not when you're trying to change the world, 338 00:21:05,054 --> 00:21:08,815 not when there's a civil war going on and the 339 00:21:08,815 --> 00:21:11,475 fate of your nation is in the balance. 340 00:21:14,095 --> 00:21:17,934 And under recognition is happening everywhere all at 341 00:21:17,934 --> 00:21:21,440 once in all of those scenarios, big and small. I find this 342 00:21:21,500 --> 00:21:25,020 conversation fascinating because on one 343 00:21:25,020 --> 00:21:28,779 hand, it's a little bit of a relief to be like, oh, right. 344 00:21:28,779 --> 00:21:32,220 There are instances where, you know, take for 345 00:21:32,220 --> 00:21:35,740 example, people of color, black and brown skin can 346 00:21:35,740 --> 00:21:38,935 feel under recognized. Right? 347 00:21:39,555 --> 00:21:42,515 But on the other hand, I go, well, what's a gal to do about it? 348 00:21:42,515 --> 00:21:46,215 You know? Like, what do we what do we do with this newfound information? 349 00:21:46,755 --> 00:21:50,355 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's my life's 350 00:21:50,355 --> 00:21:54,130 work. Like, hi. Right? 351 00:21:54,130 --> 00:21:57,810 I casually say it all in the next 10 minutes. You 352 00:21:57,810 --> 00:22:00,550 know, MBD, it's fine. I got it. We could do this. 353 00:22:01,410 --> 00:22:04,630 So, honestly oh, boy. 354 00:22:05,335 --> 00:22:08,155 I would say you wanna tackle under recognition 355 00:22:09,655 --> 00:22:12,875 and its causes and its costs 356 00:22:13,655 --> 00:22:17,335 in a few ways. And under there are sort of two 357 00:22:17,335 --> 00:22:21,139 sides to the underrecognition coin. Right? There is the cause of 358 00:22:21,139 --> 00:22:24,360 underrecognition. I call these visibility biases, 359 00:22:24,980 --> 00:22:28,340 and these are the cognitive biases that allocate our attention in 360 00:22:28,340 --> 00:22:32,145 discriminatory ways. Right? And so part of what 361 00:22:32,145 --> 00:22:35,745 we've gotta do is neutralize those, address 362 00:22:35,745 --> 00:22:38,805 those. Right? And often 363 00:22:39,345 --> 00:22:42,645 what that looks like when I am working with clients 364 00:22:42,785 --> 00:22:46,465 is first, we've gotta make sure 365 00:22:46,465 --> 00:22:50,080 that your platform is not just memorable, but it's 366 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,920 also influential, right? It's based on motivation. And when 367 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,680 I talk about your platform, all that I mean by that is your 368 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,460 premise about how the world can and should be different and your 369 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,995 positioning, which is just what makes your 370 00:23:04,995 --> 00:23:08,835 premise distinct. Right? So take that and all 371 00:23:08,835 --> 00:23:12,674 your memorable assets together, and that's your platform. We've got 372 00:23:12,674 --> 00:23:16,490 to make sure that those things are motivationally based so that they can be 373 00:23:16,490 --> 00:23:20,190 influential. That's the first thing. And then 374 00:23:20,970 --> 00:23:23,950 the second thing I would say, and this sort of gets into 375 00:23:25,289 --> 00:23:29,045 the other side of the under recognition coin. The second thing 376 00:23:29,045 --> 00:23:32,725 that I would say is then that we've got to focus on what 377 00:23:32,725 --> 00:23:36,485 I call your circle of recognition. Right? And 378 00:23:36,485 --> 00:23:40,165 that's just fancy talk for your network. Sure. Right? But it's 379 00:23:40,165 --> 00:23:43,750 your network structured around the very specific behavior, 380 00:23:43,970 --> 00:23:47,810 namely recognition and understanding that your 381 00:23:47,810 --> 00:23:51,170 network can be designed towards certain 382 00:23:51,170 --> 00:23:54,690 behavioral outcomes, literally designed. I mean that in a literal 383 00:23:54,690 --> 00:23:58,465 sense. The stakeholders can be selected and designed into it. 384 00:23:58,465 --> 00:24:01,905 The structure of their relationships with each other can be designed. 385 00:24:01,905 --> 00:24:05,665 Right? Like the actual geometric shape of 386 00:24:05,665 --> 00:24:09,210 your network contributes to the outcomes that you're getting right 387 00:24:09,210 --> 00:24:12,970 now. There are whole scientific traditions, network science 388 00:24:12,970 --> 00:24:16,490 being one of them, that are dedicated to this. Right? And this is how I 389 00:24:16,490 --> 00:24:20,169 address that. So that's sort of the second thing. Then I'll pause 390 00:24:20,169 --> 00:24:23,710 here to talk about the other side of the under recognition coin, 391 00:24:23,929 --> 00:24:27,675 which is what it costs to be under recognized. I call that 392 00:24:27,675 --> 00:24:31,035 the invisibility tax. And the 393 00:24:31,035 --> 00:24:34,395 invisibility tax, it's the extra bit of 394 00:24:34,395 --> 00:24:38,235 time, energy, money, resources, frankly, that 395 00:24:38,235 --> 00:24:41,770 are, I'll be honest, extorted from under 396 00:24:41,770 --> 00:24:45,530 recognized folks in order for them to be visible at all. And especially 397 00:24:45,530 --> 00:24:49,230 for them to be as visible as their peers who enjoy more environmental 398 00:24:49,610 --> 00:24:53,405 protections, let's say. And we need 399 00:24:53,405 --> 00:24:57,245 to neutralize those as well because the 400 00:24:57,245 --> 00:25:00,685 invisibility tax is what is actually putting that 401 00:25:00,685 --> 00:25:03,665 gap between folks who are under recognized 402 00:25:04,445 --> 00:25:08,250 and folks who are leveraging the same tactics and strategies 403 00:25:08,250 --> 00:25:12,030 and tools and blah blah blah, but are leagues ahead. 404 00:25:12,410 --> 00:25:15,470 Right? The invisibility tax is at the crux of why. 405 00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:19,845 And so we address the invisibility tax 406 00:25:20,804 --> 00:25:24,645 again by doing those first two things that I mentioned, but then adding a third 407 00:25:24,645 --> 00:25:28,265 element. And that third element, I call it your attention 408 00:25:28,405 --> 00:25:32,025 management system. Right? We've got to make sure 409 00:25:32,405 --> 00:25:35,820 that all of the stakeholders that are required for your 410 00:25:35,980 --> 00:25:39,519 success, that we are able to gain, maintain, 411 00:25:40,139 --> 00:25:42,720 and translate their attention predictably, 412 00:25:43,659 --> 00:25:47,200 understanding that that's gonna look different depending on which stakeholder 413 00:25:47,419 --> 00:25:51,154 we are talking about and the motivations that they hold. And 414 00:25:51,154 --> 00:25:54,835 so your attention management system, a, has to 415 00:25:54,835 --> 00:25:58,434 exist and b, needs to be multifaceted and able 416 00:25:58,434 --> 00:26:00,934 to, like, maintain that 417 00:26:01,794 --> 00:26:05,560 multitude. So, yeah, that's in a 418 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,760 nutshell, my life's work. 419 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,760 And Yeah. That's I mean, this is 420 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,460 like, my my brain is, like, spinning in a 1000000 different directions. And 421 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,425 one of the things that always comes up for me is probably 422 00:26:20,425 --> 00:26:24,105 something that's just deeply personal. I have no idea if I'm projecting or not. Maybe 423 00:26:24,105 --> 00:26:27,865 you could tell me. Sure. But sometimes I find in this so if I'm 424 00:26:27,865 --> 00:26:30,685 gonna use your language too Mhmm. In this, 425 00:26:31,785 --> 00:26:35,409 the the network, part 426 00:26:35,409 --> 00:26:39,250 of my tax that I have to pay to get ahead feels 427 00:26:39,250 --> 00:26:42,610 a little bit like I am the token one. Oh, girl. 428 00:26:42,610 --> 00:26:46,345 Yes. And, I don't know if this is just me. This 429 00:26:46,345 --> 00:26:49,385 is just me. I just sometimes feel like, oh, I'm the only got it. I 430 00:26:49,385 --> 00:26:52,985 know my role here. How what do I like, I don't know how to do 431 00:26:52,985 --> 00:26:56,605 that. I usually look at those situations as an opportunity 432 00:26:56,745 --> 00:27:00,230 and and just take it and run with it. But there's still that piece in 433 00:27:00,230 --> 00:27:03,990 the back of my mind where I'm like, you know, do I belong here? Should 434 00:27:03,990 --> 00:27:07,830 I be in this room? If my skin were a different color, would 435 00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:11,429 I even be considered? What's what's a gal to do about that? Yeah. 436 00:27:11,429 --> 00:27:14,915 Yeah. So what I will say to this is your instinct is a 1000% 437 00:27:15,135 --> 00:27:18,575 correct. That is actually in fact, one of the facets of the 438 00:27:18,575 --> 00:27:22,175 invisibility tax. Okay. It's the not only 439 00:27:22,175 --> 00:27:26,015 being like an only and a token. Right? But there's this 440 00:27:26,015 --> 00:27:29,610 sort of validation paradox, which is what I've taken to calling it, where 441 00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:33,670 you are in this space. You are made 442 00:27:33,670 --> 00:27:37,370 very visible, but then you are not actually given the 443 00:27:37,670 --> 00:27:41,430 support or structural things that you need in 444 00:27:41,430 --> 00:27:45,054 order to execute on the very visible role that you've 445 00:27:45,054 --> 00:27:48,755 suddenly been given. Right? And so often this looks like 446 00:27:49,215 --> 00:27:53,054 someone who is very visible, but they don't have a lot of power to 447 00:27:53,054 --> 00:27:56,815 change things or open the door behind them, or, you 448 00:27:56,815 --> 00:28:00,049 know, what have you. And then people sort of wink 449 00:28:00,190 --> 00:28:03,570 knowingly if that person doesn't remain in that space. 450 00:28:03,630 --> 00:28:07,390 Right? And honestly, this brings me 451 00:28:07,390 --> 00:28:10,422 back to your circle of recognition. Right? Your depending on this opportunity that you have 452 00:28:10,422 --> 00:28:12,450 gotten. Right? Do 453 00:28:14,565 --> 00:28:18,264 You're depending on this opportunity that you have gotten, right? 454 00:28:18,404 --> 00:28:22,085 Do you know who your advocates are in 455 00:28:22,085 --> 00:28:25,845 that room? Do you have any advocates in that room? Do you 456 00:28:25,845 --> 00:28:29,200 know who your mediators are? Right? The folks who are directly 457 00:28:29,340 --> 00:28:32,780 connecting you to opportunities. Did you know the 458 00:28:32,780 --> 00:28:36,460 gatekeeper on your way in? Right? The person who's standing 459 00:28:36,460 --> 00:28:40,300 between you and that particular opportunity that you now have. Right? 460 00:28:40,300 --> 00:28:43,865 And awareness of these stakeholders and their motivations. 461 00:28:44,645 --> 00:28:48,025 And furthermore, a relationship with those folks 462 00:28:48,565 --> 00:28:52,165 allows you to neutralize sometimes and 463 00:28:52,165 --> 00:28:55,900 circumnavigate in other cases, facets of the invisibility 464 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,040 tax. Right? Because when you have that understanding, when you 465 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,780 have that knowledge, right, when you have those relationships, 466 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,095 then you're able to say, Hey, I'm kind of the 467 00:29:07,095 --> 00:29:10,935 only person in here to that one advocate 468 00:29:10,935 --> 00:29:14,295 who might be better positioned to say something about it than you are. Right? 469 00:29:14,295 --> 00:29:18,075 Or, hey, I I think that 470 00:29:18,135 --> 00:29:19,841 this room might benefit from more perspectives like this. You might say to that gatekeeper 471 00:29:19,841 --> 00:29:22,697 who was standing between you and this perspectives like this. You might say to that 472 00:29:22,697 --> 00:29:24,912 gatekeeper who was standing between you and this opportunity to begin with. Right? So it 473 00:29:24,912 --> 00:29:28,020 all it all depends, but that circle of recognition is going to be really key. 474 00:29:28,020 --> 00:29:31,779 And that's Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'm curious about the the 475 00:29:31,779 --> 00:29:34,070 flip side of that. So let's say there is an advocate or a gatekeeper in 476 00:29:34,070 --> 00:29:37,845 this kind of circle of influence and, gatekeeper in this kind of circle of 477 00:29:37,845 --> 00:29:39,785 influence, and, they're, you know, on their own journey to recognize those who previously have 478 00:29:39,805 --> 00:29:43,365 gone under recognized. Mhmm. How do they 479 00:29:43,365 --> 00:29:45,465 go about it without, 480 00:29:52,820 --> 00:29:56,580 you know, creating this feeling of of tokenism or 481 00:29:56,580 --> 00:30:00,420 or feeling, superficial in the ways that they're making their 482 00:30:00,420 --> 00:30:04,260 decisions? Yeah. So there are a couple of 483 00:30:04,260 --> 00:30:07,720 things here. So what what I'll do is I'll speak about 484 00:30:07,725 --> 00:30:10,544 this generally while also 485 00:30:11,245 --> 00:30:15,005 narrowing the scope and talking about this in a branding and 486 00:30:15,005 --> 00:30:18,845 marketing context as well. So I'll sort of like feed 2 birds with 1 487 00:30:18,845 --> 00:30:22,445 scone, let's say. And so what I what I tend to suggest to 488 00:30:22,445 --> 00:30:26,290 folks who are like, oh, okay. Under recognition is a thing. Got it. And I 489 00:30:26,290 --> 00:30:29,810 can contribute to making it less of a thing. Amazing. How do I do that? 490 00:30:29,810 --> 00:30:33,570 Right? In the branding and marketing context, one of the first things I tell people 491 00:30:33,570 --> 00:30:37,366 is stop using ideal client avatars. I'm pro this. 492 00:30:37,366 --> 00:30:40,970 I'm very pro this. Yeah. And and so what I'm 493 00:30:41,330 --> 00:30:44,934 what I mean by this and, like, why this connects 494 00:30:44,934 --> 00:30:48,538 more largely to what we're talking about is because an 495 00:30:48,538 --> 00:30:52,340 ideal client avatar is just us as folks who are 496 00:30:52,340 --> 00:30:55,720 in this particular industry. It's just us 497 00:30:56,100 --> 00:30:59,320 segmenting the world demographically and psychographically. 498 00:30:59,700 --> 00:31:03,380 Right? So for those who are unfamiliar, demographics are like census level 499 00:31:03,380 --> 00:31:06,805 data, age, gender, race, that sort of thing. 500 00:31:06,865 --> 00:31:09,925 Psychographics are like hobbies, preferences, affiliations. 501 00:31:10,385 --> 00:31:14,145 Right? So what ideal client avatars do is they segment 502 00:31:14,145 --> 00:31:17,919 the world into those groups, and then they invite us 503 00:31:17,919 --> 00:31:21,620 to make assumptions about human beings based off of those factors. Right? 504 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,220 Which is just, you know, not what we wanna do 505 00:31:27,039 --> 00:31:30,684 Right. At all. But especially if 506 00:31:30,684 --> 00:31:34,304 we're thinking about saying like, hey. Let's stop under recognizing 507 00:31:34,605 --> 00:31:38,284 certain kinds of people and experiences. Right? Because it's those 508 00:31:38,284 --> 00:31:41,910 very assumptions that lead to the under recognition 509 00:31:42,150 --> 00:31:45,610 that we're talking about in the 1st place. And so ideal client avatars, 510 00:31:46,550 --> 00:31:50,090 like, from a marketing and branding perspective, they reinforce underrecognition. 511 00:31:50,790 --> 00:31:53,290 But even just from, like, a conceptual 512 00:31:54,150 --> 00:31:57,794 standpoint, they are problematic in that they reinforce 513 00:31:57,934 --> 00:32:01,615 as well. So that's what I would say. And for those who I'm sure are 514 00:32:01,615 --> 00:32:04,595 listening to this and they're like, hey, wait, wait, wait, woah, woah, woah, woah. 515 00:32:06,735 --> 00:32:10,510 Right? Like, what do you mean? How are we supposed to 516 00:32:10,510 --> 00:32:14,190 get anything done that right? Like, I get it. I get it. I get it. 517 00:32:14,190 --> 00:32:17,809 I get it. Riddle me this. Riddle me this. 518 00:32:18,429 --> 00:32:21,950 If we are in the business of behavior change and we are trying to change 519 00:32:21,950 --> 00:32:25,715 people's behavior, then why are we relying on 520 00:32:25,715 --> 00:32:29,315 information that doesn't tell us really anything about what would 521 00:32:29,315 --> 00:32:33,075 motivate that behavior change in the first place? Yeah. K. Because 522 00:32:33,075 --> 00:32:36,780 someone's race isn't going to tell me what's gonna motivate their behavior change. 523 00:32:36,780 --> 00:32:40,540 I can make some assumptions. Someone's age isn't gonna tell me what's 524 00:32:40,540 --> 00:32:44,140 gonna motivate their behavior change. I can make some assumptions, 525 00:32:44,140 --> 00:32:47,740 though. Someone's preference of Hulu over 526 00:32:47,740 --> 00:32:51,184 Netflix is not gonna tell me. The fact that they 527 00:32:51,325 --> 00:32:55,005 really like grapefruit seltzer is not gonna tell me what's 528 00:32:55,005 --> 00:32:58,765 gonna motivate their behavior change. And that's even if I'm selling grapefruit 529 00:32:58,765 --> 00:33:02,465 seltzer. Yeah. Right? Like, yeah, I know that they like grapefruit seltzer, 530 00:33:02,525 --> 00:33:06,310 but that's not gonna tell me what's gonna get them to buy more of 531 00:33:06,310 --> 00:33:09,670 that if that's the behavior change I'm trying to make happen. 532 00:33:09,670 --> 00:33:13,270 Right? So on top of, like, reinforcing these things that we're 533 00:33:13,270 --> 00:33:16,890 like, we maybe don't want that to happen anymore. 534 00:33:17,830 --> 00:33:21,384 They're also not as useful as we're making them out to be, and they're 535 00:33:21,384 --> 00:33:25,225 inviting us to make some pretty dangerous leaps in logic to 536 00:33:25,225 --> 00:33:27,485 accomplish our work. 537 00:33:28,745 --> 00:33:32,580 How how how soapboxy do we want me to get? 538 00:33:32,820 --> 00:33:36,659 Like Get on the soapbox. Because listen. So one of I'll give an example 539 00:33:36,659 --> 00:33:40,419 of this. One of the things I've been very adamant in my business since the 540 00:33:40,419 --> 00:33:44,039 beginning, 10 years in business, is that I don't use gendered 541 00:33:44,100 --> 00:33:47,875 language to talk about my people because I don't 542 00:33:47,955 --> 00:33:51,475 like, a lot of people assume things. They go, oh, you work with only women 543 00:33:51,475 --> 00:33:54,615 or whatever the case may be, and that's not the case at all. 544 00:33:54,835 --> 00:33:58,195 Nope. And I'm very, very 545 00:33:58,195 --> 00:34:02,010 intentional about this in my business because I I think it's 546 00:34:02,170 --> 00:34:05,630 exclusionary actually to a lot of the folks that I work with. 547 00:34:05,850 --> 00:34:09,230 Yeah. All sorts of genders, non binary 548 00:34:09,290 --> 00:34:12,969 folks, men, you know, like, I I I'm 549 00:34:12,969 --> 00:34:16,730 not I'd I'm very intentional not excluding that. And 550 00:34:16,730 --> 00:34:20,405 so when I build my when I'm working on my branding, 551 00:34:20,545 --> 00:34:23,905 and especially right now I'm in a pivot Mhmm. It's more 552 00:34:23,905 --> 00:34:27,265 about the outcomes that they're seeking Thank you. 553 00:34:27,425 --> 00:34:31,105 Than who they are as a person. And who they are as a person, I 554 00:34:31,105 --> 00:34:34,570 still use examples. Like, an example would be, 555 00:34:35,030 --> 00:34:38,550 I work with people who have small children, for instance, that the time that they 556 00:34:38,550 --> 00:34:41,670 have available is different. I work with people who have chronic illness. The time that 557 00:34:41,670 --> 00:34:45,350 they have is different. So, like, I use those examples to, like, 558 00:34:45,350 --> 00:34:49,034 call in my people, but I'm not saying I only work with moms, for 559 00:34:49,034 --> 00:34:52,815 instance. That's that's not my only group of people, that I quit. 560 00:34:53,034 --> 00:34:56,875 Yes. Exactly. And so you are practicing actually what I tell 561 00:34:56,875 --> 00:35:00,635 other people to do. Right? Yay. Okay. I'm doing it. You're doing it. No. 562 00:35:00,635 --> 00:35:04,470 You're doing it. This is amazing. Right? At the end of the day, what 563 00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:08,310 is important is their motivation. Right? The thing that would 564 00:35:08,310 --> 00:35:11,830 motivate them to change their behavior. Right? And, yes, you're correct. It is 565 00:35:11,830 --> 00:35:15,430 that outcome that they're looking for. It is that aspiration that they are reaching 566 00:35:15,430 --> 00:35:18,635 for. Right? And then it is the motivational 567 00:35:19,255 --> 00:35:22,615 drivers in their environment that shape those 568 00:35:22,615 --> 00:35:26,155 motivations. Right? So you're absolutely correct. Right? 569 00:35:26,295 --> 00:35:30,055 Someone might consider the fact that, you know, this person has a chronic 570 00:35:30,055 --> 00:35:33,900 illness. They might be like, that's a psychographic. You know what? Sure. I'm fine 571 00:35:33,900 --> 00:35:37,420 with it because it's the right kind of psychographic. Because what that tells 572 00:35:37,420 --> 00:35:41,180 you is that their time and that their energy is probably at a 573 00:35:41,180 --> 00:35:44,320 premium. And that is a motivational driver. Yeah. 574 00:35:44,619 --> 00:35:48,075 Okay? Yeah. Not a grapefruit seltzer. Not grapefruit 575 00:35:48,075 --> 00:35:51,515 seltzer for the love of god. Right? Yeah. 576 00:35:51,515 --> 00:35:55,295 And any honestly, any any segmentation 577 00:35:55,675 --> 00:35:59,355 that does not allow me and this 578 00:35:59,355 --> 00:36:02,660 adorable, fluffy, giant baby Yoda 579 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,820 to be in the same group is a problem. It is a problem. 580 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,840 Yes. So and, 581 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,440 I mean, I know that, like, we're laughing and, like, we're talking about this from 582 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,095 an efficacy standpoint. Right? But I do I do 583 00:36:19,095 --> 00:36:22,695 want to stress that, like, this isn't just a 584 00:36:22,695 --> 00:36:26,155 a a small thing that's, you know, in the world of 585 00:36:26,455 --> 00:36:30,215 branding and brand strategy and marketing and advertising and all the like, it's 586 00:36:30,215 --> 00:36:33,970 not just a small thing. Right? We're in a 587 00:36:33,970 --> 00:36:37,650 world right now where we're kind of in a 588 00:36:37,650 --> 00:36:40,630 crossroads of our own making. Right? We've 589 00:36:41,250 --> 00:36:45,065 we assumed that people with similar demographics 590 00:36:45,205 --> 00:36:49,045 and psychographics would have similar perceptions of the 591 00:36:49,045 --> 00:36:52,665 world and similar experiences rather than assuming that people 592 00:36:52,805 --> 00:36:56,425 who had similar motivations and motivational drivers would. Right? 593 00:36:56,770 --> 00:36:59,830 Then we segmented the world according to those 594 00:37:00,130 --> 00:37:03,810 details, demographics, and psychographics. And we did that so it 595 00:37:03,810 --> 00:37:07,490 would seem like we were talking to each of those individuals while we were 596 00:37:07,490 --> 00:37:11,250 talking to all of them at the same time. Right? And we 597 00:37:11,250 --> 00:37:13,852 did that because it was easy. What we didn't admit to ourselves is that we 598 00:37:13,852 --> 00:37:16,515 were actually doing that because the structure made those groups easier to manipulate. That's what 599 00:37:16,515 --> 00:37:18,855 we were doing. That's 600 00:37:20,275 --> 00:37:21,975 what we were doing. 601 00:37:25,910 --> 00:37:29,210 And then we got surprised when that manipulation 602 00:37:30,310 --> 00:37:33,670 allowed for the explosive spread of disinformation and 603 00:37:33,670 --> 00:37:37,510 misinformation and violence. Yep. So, like, 604 00:37:37,510 --> 00:37:41,155 I know it's just ideal client avatars, but it's also not just ideal 605 00:37:41,155 --> 00:37:44,434 client avatars. You know? Yeah. Yeah. We see it so show up in so many 606 00:37:44,434 --> 00:37:48,115 different ways. I mean, you know, at the time this, episode's coming out, we're 607 00:37:48,115 --> 00:37:51,875 headed into the US election, and that's, like, ideal client 608 00:37:51,875 --> 00:37:55,670 avatar 101. Like, every like Literally. All the candidates put everyone 609 00:37:55,670 --> 00:37:59,430 into these categories, and then the manipulation for each 610 00:37:59,430 --> 00:38:03,110 whatever group you're in, it's like, we're gonna speak to that. Interesting. Okay. 611 00:38:03,110 --> 00:38:06,650 So I know that for those people listening, they're like, okay. 612 00:38:07,430 --> 00:38:11,195 Ideal client avatars. I need to learn more, and you've 613 00:38:11,195 --> 00:38:14,715 got a resource for us all about that. So tell us about what that 614 00:38:14,715 --> 00:38:18,155 is. Yeah. So I do have a piece that I 615 00:38:18,155 --> 00:38:21,360 wrote about why ideal client avatars are trash, 616 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:27,040 and what some of the things are that we might wanna look for 617 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,560 as far as alternatives are concerned. Right? Now don't get me 618 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,000 wrong. I have my own alternatives. I have designed them, and I use them with 619 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,825 my clients with great success, and I enjoy them immensely. Right? But I 620 00:38:37,825 --> 00:38:41,184 also don't necessarily want to push onto you my own 621 00:38:41,184 --> 00:38:44,964 alternative. Right? And so what I've done instead is I've listed 622 00:38:45,025 --> 00:38:48,800 what some of the things you want to look for are as 623 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,700 far as what a helpful alternative would be is. 624 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,000 So I hope that sentence ended correctly. I don't know. There were lots of 625 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,520 but that's what I have for you. It'll take you through some of the 626 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,714 things that we talked about about what makes ideal client avatars 627 00:39:05,095 --> 00:39:08,775 dangerous and also just not useful and effective. It'll tell you 628 00:39:08,775 --> 00:39:12,375 about what you wanna look for as far as alternatives are concerned, and it'll tell 629 00:39:12,375 --> 00:39:16,120 you some of the things that, my own alternative 630 00:39:16,340 --> 00:39:20,100 has in case you're curious about that. So that's something that's interesting to 631 00:39:20,100 --> 00:39:23,540 you. Give that a read. It'll be in the resource 632 00:39:23,540 --> 00:39:27,380 page, that we link. Yes. And I'm linking that in the 633 00:39:27,380 --> 00:39:30,605 show notes y'all. Online.com/ 327. 634 00:39:31,385 --> 00:39:34,745 Chloé, this was amazing. Thank you so much for being on the show 635 00:39:34,745 --> 00:39:38,425 today. Thank you for having me. This is so fun. Yeah. And I'm gonna put 636 00:39:38,425 --> 00:39:42,185 all of her links, with this episode. Definitely go check out all 637 00:39:42,185 --> 00:39:46,000 of the things. It's gonna be so good. And thank you, dear 638 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,839 listener, for tuning into another episode of the Mindful Marketing Podcast. Make sure 639 00:39:49,839 --> 00:39:53,680 you give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It helps 640 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,460 keep us in the top 100 podcasts, and that's because of you and your listenership. 641 00:39:57,599 --> 00:40:01,285 So thank you so much. Next week, I'm gonna be talking about the 642 00:40:01,285 --> 00:40:04,905 rise of dark social and why your best engagement 643 00:40:05,525 --> 00:40:09,365 isn't visible. So stay tuned for that. I'll see you next 644 00:40:09,365 --> 00:40:10,585 Tuesday. Bye.