If you want to finally get on your dream podcast or even just
dip your toe into being a perfect guest on a podcast, today
I have a special treat for you because we have a new round table episode
all about how to pitch yourself for the right
podcasts. I'm your host, Andrea Jones. This is episode number
324 of the Mindful Marketing Podcast. Before we get into the
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Riverside. All
right, let's dive into the episode. I'm excited for this because I have
some amazing guests today who I've talked with and known
online for a long time. But I think this is one of the first times
where I got I get to, like, pick your brains about what you do. I'm
excited. We're gonna start with a round of intros. I will start with Mai-kee first.
Introduce yourself and your business. Absolutely. And I'm super
excited to be here. So thank you so much for the invitation. And we're just
saying in the green room, like, oh my gosh, I actually know of, like, one
of you for years, but, you know, anyhow, so hi. My name is Mai-kee
Tsang. I use sheher pronouns. And in a nutshell, I help human first
business owner to get heard and hired for their work in the world through the
power of guesting on podcast and having sustainable visibility strategies.
Beautiful. Thank you, Mai-kee. Brittany, you're
next. Yes. Hi. My name is Brittany Lynn. I,
run a PR agency, called Human Connection Agency
where we work with entrepreneurs and authors,
with their visibility. So everything from podcasts, which is my favorite,
my first love. But we also do other PR, and outreach
strategies such as publications, TV,
influencer marketing, speaking opportunities, all of that kind of stuff.
Beautiful. Thank you, Britney. And Angie, you're next. Tell us about
yourself and your business. Yeah. So I am the founder of the PodWise
Group, and we are a consulting and training firm
for business and PR leaders, helping them pitch and
land interviews for their clients for their own internal
leaders. So, we've been in the podcast guesting space
for coming on 8 years now. So it's it's
been a while. I think we all have been around for a while. Yes.
Yes. And I'll start by saying too, what I love about podcasting,
for me specifically, is that I get to show up on someone else's podcast and
just, like, talk about my experience. And
it's a really easy way for me to be visible because there's
very little prep these days because I've been doing it for so long that,
like, I know my stories. And it feels like an
easy win for me when I share it with my community as well.
So starting from the beginning, Mai-kee, this question's for
you. What do you think makes a podcast
pitch really stand out? Oh, I
can go so many different directions, but when I was looking at
the notes and I thought, okay, this is what I really wanna say.
What's gonna stand out in the inbox is if you
send an audio or video pitch.
And the reason why is because the vast majority of pitches that
podcasters are ever gonna receive are going to be in the written format. And the
reason why is because it's the easiest method to repeat and to outsource as
well. But you're gonna stand out in no time with a video and audio pitch
because if again, like, rarely anyone does it. And there are
three reasons why this stands out. 1, I just said it.
People really do it. 2, there's a lot of information you can gather from
someone when you just simply hear their voice or if you see them, if
you see their face as a lot of nonverbal communications, if you're able to see
someone's face. And thirdly, it's gonna give them a taste of how you
speak on a podcast because if you're reaching out cold, they
have no idea who you are. And even if you give them all the links
in the world, they may not have the time to scour through your
website or to look at everything on your press page.
So if you give them a taste in like a minute or less and really
succinct yourself, then it's gonna really showcase your abilities as a
speaker. So whether you can share a quick story, you can, you know, really come
home to a succinct point. They can feel your charisma, all of that good stuff.
And I've used a couple of tools like SpeakPipe, Loom,
Bonjoro, and BombBomb to really send these to keep it nice and simple.
So that's what I think stands out a lot in crowded inbox.
Yeah. I totally agree. Someone who's like I get probably like 3 or 4
podcast pitches a day these days, and I only do a
weekly show. So and some weeks are just me. So I
literally can't accept all of them. And it becomes clear which
ones are just copy pasted, mass sent out to everybody. And so
what I'm hearing you say is personalization is key here.
So my next question goes to Britney. When we're personalizing
these pitches, how do we balance, you know, the
need for efficiency? Meaning, we are probably pitching a few podcasts at the same
time. And also making sure that we keep it personalized
and have that high touch approach that makes it stand out. How do we balance
all of that? Yes. Such a great question and
something I see often and I think people struggle with because we're all trying to
be efficient with our time. You know, with podcast pitching,
sometimes it is a numbers game. Right? So you can't just really pitch 2
or 3 podcasts and then, you know, if you didn't get any
responses to it, be like, well, podcast pitching doesn't work. You really have to send
out a lot of different pitches to kinda start,
getting some yeses. But it can be hard to personalize
all of those pitches. You know, if you're sending out 40 in a
month, it can be hard to make each of those you know, I think when
people think about personalization, they think I have to start completely from
scratch like a blank piece of paper every time and rewrite it from
scratch every time, and that's not really what you need to do. So
one of my favorite tactics that we use with our clients,
is we make niche specific podcast
pitches. So as an example, we have a
grief expert that we represent. We've represented her for over 3
years. And, in that topic, you can kinda
think, okay. Well, like, how many podcasts can you pitch her to? You know, grief
is a niche type of topic. So, of course, we pitch her to grief
related podcast, but there's only so many of those types of podcasts.
So what we do is, you know, we make topics,
on different niches. So we'll do, like, a grief and money podcast,
like, how grief affects people's financial
situation, how they think about money, how they handle money.
There's parenting podcasts that we pitch. There's,
podcasts there that are about, like, you know, raising your kids,
grief and raising your kids. We pitch HR
related podcast, grief in the workplace. Whenever you're a leader and you have
an employee who is going through a grief experience, how do you help
support that employee? And so a lot of that
we're changing up the talking points for each of those. But, again, as
you are, you know, someone that's listening to this episode and you're
wanting to pitch yourself to podcast, you really are going
to kind of talk about the same things over and over
again on different podcasts. And you're gonna give different
examples, and you're gonna have different tips, but your
overall brand messaging and talking points should
really stay the same. You shouldn't be changing your tips all
of the time, because you want to become known as a
leader in whatever industry that you're in. And so you're
gonna feel like you're repeating yourself, but you have to remember you're
speaking to different audiences. There's a different audience that's listening
to the HR podcast versus the parenting
podcast. And even if there is overlap, I think probably all of us
here can relate. At least I hope I'm not calling myself out.
Sometimes there's a person I start following, an author, someone
online. I wanna go and listen to every podcast they've ever
done. Does anybody else do that? Yeah. Or am I just, like, the
crazy one? Okay. Great. It's not you. So but, like,
even if we're listening to them on different podcasts, they might have
some of the same talking points, but, still, the interview is different because you're
getting you're interacting with a different person. So I
think having the combination of, like, doing some video audio
pitches, but then also have you know, making sure you can speak to
that specific audience that you're pitching, that's the thing that you
can personalize and tweak, and then the rest of it
can kinda stay similar. Yeah. And
I love this whole conversation of personalization because,
I think it just it works so well with anything we do in marketing. But,
specifically, with the pitches, like, there's so many different
stories and anecdotes and ways that you can, you know, still have your same talking
points, but kinda shape it differently for different audiences and
different communities, which I love. One of the things you talked about as well,
Britney, is this idea of, you know, you you are pitching a lot of places
and not everywhere is you're gonna get accepted, which is why in the past, I've
hired someone Britney. I've hired Britney, to be like, I don't wanna get
rejected. So I'm gonna put this I'm gonna give this question to Angie.
Rejection is part of the process. I don't like it. I I
hate it. What's your approach to this? Like, how do do we just need thick
skin? Like, how do we handle the nose? First of all, if I
had a nickel for every client that hired us because they didn't wanna get the
rejection emails, That's really what we're in the business of
is insulating our clients from rejection. So
it's it's totally normal. I mean, it's something we deal with every single
day, and I think there's 2 different results to kind of pick
apart. The first is the no, like getting a flat out no. Thank
you, and the other is the no response. And
the no response, there's not a lot that you can do with that.
Right? You do your follow-up sequence. We have a, you know, a really laid
out plan for how we do respectful follow-up. You could
always try to pitch whomever the host is on a different platform.
For the most part, if we have a a status in our ClickUp called
crickets. And so if we don't hear back, we just move it to the
crickets column. And sometimes those will pop and we'll get responses
months later, but for the most part, there's not a lot to do there.
And that's why as we talk about personalization and the actual
pitch, it is so important to get that first pitch
pretty well nailed so that you can get a response.
And that's actually what I see our goal as. Like, yes, our clients
want yeses, but my primary goal is to get some form
of response back from whoever we are hosting,
some sign of life that someone read it and felt
compelled enough to send us an email back. From
there, we actually have the opportunity to start building a relationship
unless it was not a great pitch and they were basically like, don't ever email
us again, which we don't get that often. Right? It happens occasionally, but it's
fine. Really? Yeah. 2 weeks ago, I pitched
it was a host that we've never pitched before. I sent a client,
to him. Like, I had a really nice pitch, totally personalized to his
show. He wrote back really quickly, I can't
express to you how appreciative I am that you took the time to understand our
show. He said, while she is not a good
fit, I think she would be a better fit for my friend's
show who hosts and talks to this type of audience.
So he gave me a referral to someone else to where if it
had been this templated pitch, he would not have taken the
time because it wouldn't have felt human. And then
I told him thank you, and I also said, we
have another client. Like, I offered up if in the
off chance a CPA coming on your show would be a good fit, let
me know. I can work up some angles. And he was like, yeah. Let me
hear what you got. That would be really interesting. So I only say
that to illustrate the no when done right is the beginning
of a relationship. It doesn't always end up in a yes for your
client, but it can end up in maybe a yes for someone down
the road or you being able to connect that host with
someone else. And, like, relationships is what this is all
about, candidly. Yeah. I a 100% agree. And I have to
say, having worked with, Britney and Angie, getting pitches
from your both of your clients from or from your team for
your clients for my podcast, to me, I'm already like,
oh, I'm curious because you take the time to know the
show. You take the time to find the topics that fit in with the
show. And we have relationships built
already. So when I see the name in the inbox, I'm like, well, let me
consider this versus sending my templated, like, here's the
wait list. Because, like, I don't know if this is a fit or not. Right?
And so the relationships piece, I I love that. And the
crickets, like, I'm already imagining putting a little cricket
emoji in the crick the cricket category.
And to that point, like, just to reiterate, that's really
common. It's you are not going to get a response from
every single person you pitch. You are going to get noes.
Like, the point of putting yourself out there, you're gonna get
noes. It's the nature of it, like and like Angie said, you know,
some people hire people to do it for them so that they don't personally have
to receive the noes. But, like, I'm telling you, like,
Angie and I get so many noes in a day, like, you wouldn't even believe.
And now I'm just like, I don't care. I didn't get to know. My client
got to know. You know? It's it's just kind of the nature of the game.
Yeah. It is. And something to add on to the whole rejection no
thing. I remember back in the day when I did used to pitch for clients,
because now I have a DIY course and I'd rather, and I teach it instead.
Right? But back when I used to pitch for clients, I remember really
looking out for the nose because the nose weren't coming to me
about my business. I'm pitching on behalf of a client. It didn't hurt as much,
first of all. And also depending on the kind of
feedback, if you do get a response that isn't just a plain,
like flat out, no, thank you, and if there's actually an insight you can gather
from there. So I actually have a column in my spreadsheet for pitching
that has that is called reason for no. And sometimes
I detected a pattern as to why we were getting noes, and that actually
made me switch our strategy a little bit. So earlier, Britney, when you I'm
talking about niche specific stuff. So my client,
had a topic that can apply to different industries, but instead we honed in on
the HR industry in particular, and then we got a lot more yeses.
And so sometimes if you're able to take the sting out of a no, if
you're not, working with an agency and you're pitching yourself, for example,
you may find there are opportunities to see where you can pivot a little
bit for your strategy if there's a pattern that's emerging from your nose.
Yes. Okay. On that same vein, Mai-kee, what are some of
the common mistakes that you see, as your clients
are, you know, going through the course and they're trying to find podcasts to
pitch and they're just not getting a Lottie ask? What are some of the mistakes
that you see them, coming across? Well, not so much my clients
because I've taught them, but Oh, yes. Of course. Now before taking your
course. Yeah. Before. I mean, the first
thing that comes to mind, and this is a it's a phrase, a mantra, if
you will, that I teach them, and it's called service over self
importance. And where this stemmed from is because as
someone who's a host of my own podcast, The Quiet Rebels, I have received
many, many pictures over the last 5 years of hosting it. And the number one
thing that always makes me tag an email to put in the bad
pictures label. So, because I do have some and I look I
look through them for patterns about, you know so I can actually make it a
teaching point. And it's always when someone is focused
too much on their accolades and their experience,
how much money they're making, and they've really missed the point as to why
they're reaching out to me in the 1st place. And so when I teach my
clients service over self importance is really about putting
yourself in the host shoes and ask
yourself truly and honestly, if I were to receive
this pitch myself, would I say yes to
this? And if it if it's not a heck yes and
it's been like, maybe, then there is something there that needs to be
adjusted because it's likely that your balance of self importance and
service is a bit out of whack. I think it's okay to, you know, mention,
of course, your experience and things, but that shouldn't overshadow
your ability to provide value to that person's
audience. Because ultimately, what you're asking for, you're asking someone to put
you in front of their community that they've built over goodness
knows how long, weeks, months, years even. And so
we need to really acknowledge that it's a true privilege to be on someone else's
podcast like today, for example, case in point. And so it's really important
to show up knowing how you can provide value. But if you
lead with all of your all of the things that make you, you know,
credible and how you're a 6, 7, 8 figure earner,
if that shadows it, then it's gonna often be a no. And
there is one thing there's one story that comes to mind for this.
Someone only had a self importance
based pitch. And they were so presumptuous
that I was going to give them a spot that I said, when you're ready
this is the first outreach, by the way. Completely cold. They said,
when you're ready, here's the link to my calendar
so we can record the interview.
Exactly. People are unhinged. People are
unhinged. I mean, I mean, kudos for the kudos for the
confidence, but no. And never. And so, earlier when, we
were speaking about it being a relationship based thing, because it really
is, I think Angie was talking about this. And so the biggest
mistake is burning the bridge before you've even had a chance to build it
by having pictures that are completely about self
importance. That is how you burn a bridge. That is how a relationship never
gets to be built. So just don't do that.
Yeah. Oh my gosh. I'm, like, reeling from this. Sending their
own calendar link? Yeah. Like, in the first conference I can
understand Yep. If there was some back and forth and you're trying to get schedules
and then Right. I have to have this email in my badge in my badge
pitch is labeled in my Gmail. I would like it. For us. I
love that you have I also have a folder that's called. Thanks.
It's like, here's what I have to do. We just launched our newsletter.
We revamped it. It's called the flop files. And each week, I take a
bad pitch from myself or someone. Feel free to
send them to me. I Obsessed. Anonymize it so they
don't know who the show is, who the client is. And I say, like,
it's great because we're not making fun of it because I do candidly
think coming from traditional PR into podcast pitching,
they're just really different beasts. But I identify, like, what
needs to be changed, and then I rewrite it. And it's been so
fun. It's like my favorite thing to do every week. Yes. That sounds
so fun. And just to add on to that, I I kinda forgot that I
have this, like, mini series. I've only done 3 episodes because it was kind of
like a seasonal thing. But I ran a series called pictures that
piss off podcasters. And what I did was
I got together with my podcaster friends. So say if I have one particular
host, they bring to the forefront 2 to 3 pictures. And I do ask them
to anonymize Whether they choose to or not is up to them. But,
so we are there. It's more from an educational perspective just same as you, Angie,
with your flop files. I love that name. And basically, what we
did is that we talked about why this pitch didn't land because sometimes it's
more of a constructive thing. It's not purely about make it wasn't
about making fun of it at all. Instead, it was like, look, this is why
it didn't land. It may feel a little bit different when you're the one writing
it. But again, it's putting yourself in the host shoes by hearing from the host
themselves. So I have 3 episodes on that. It's, like, free on my website if
anyone wants to check that out. And, yeah, we just really, like, break
down critique, show very real pictures that we've received as podcasters,
and it looked really, really fun to run that series. I actually might bring it
back now that we're talking about it. Inspiration
happening here. You heard it first. You heard it first. Okay. So
next question is all about pitching strategies because
one of the things I noticed with working with you, Britney, which I it's been,
like, what, 4 years since we 3. I think Yeah. 3 or
4. Yeah. It's a bit. But one of the things that really stood out to
me was how you customize the pitches to, like, what was
happening in the world at large, which
feels so basic now that I say it, but I've never would have
thought to do that strategy before. So when you're crafting
these, how do you how do you know when it's the best time to pitch
a certain topic to a certain podcast? And then to,
like, follow-up on that, like, what's your process in in building this,
pitching strategy? Yeah. So we kinda do our agency
kinda does, like, a 2 pronged strategy of, you
know, we can make really any of our topics that we're pitching
our clients evergreen where it's relevant
kinda any time of year, any month, you know,
because some podcasters and this, like, differentiates between
podcasts. And so if you're new to this industry and you're trying to figure it
out, some podcasters, you'll record an episode, the episode comes out in a
couple weeks. Sometimes you'll record an episode, it comes out in 3
months. Sometimes you record an episode, it comes out in 9 months. Sometimes you're
like, it comes out the next day. You know, there's really it's a
mixed bag. And so, you know, typically, I would
say, in general, bigger podcasts
probably plan out a little bit further in
advance. That's kind of just a general
thing. But what we do is, you know, we
have the kind of the evergreen topics that can be relevant anytime,
any place. But then there's other
times where there's specific times of the year
that might be, a really big time of year for
my particular client or for that particular podcast.
So as examples, you know, health and wellness
podcast. If you're those are big, you know, health people are looking at health
and wellness a lot, New Year's resolution time, beginning of the
year. They're starting new fitness journeys or they're trying to eat
healthier or they're exercising more. And so they're
likely going to want people that can talk about those topics
at that time of year. You know, some people, if you have, you
know, parenting or kids podcasts,
back to school time is a big time. So to
kinda not pitch too late for those
types of opportunities, I'll do 3 to 4 months
out of those. I feel like that gives a bit of time to be able
to record the episode and then for them to be able to release the
episode. But also, we look at what our clients,
their time of their important time of years. So I have a sleep
client who, May is Better Sleep
Month. And so a lot of times, we'll want and they they're they
own better sleep month, and they have a lot of media that go out during
the month of May. And so we'll start doing pitches for
those, for podcasts, you know, around the beginning of the year
to hopefully have those episodes air out. I will
say podcasts in general are pretty good
about at least authors that have books coming
out. They kind of podcasters have an understanding
of they know it'll be important to have that episode come
out around the publish date. Now you can't always get
exactly what you want, so you can always ask for it, but
don't be demanding. You know, take what you can get.
It's not gonna be the end of the world if the episode comes out 3
weeks after your publish date. In all honesty, it helps better
if you have some that kinda trickle out instead of all of them coming
out in the same week. So, yeah, just kind of thinking
of now what you can pitch. And, again, traditional media,
you can kinda pitch a little bit closer to the date podcast, again, just
because of the nature. Like you said, Andrea, most people have 1
episode a week. That's 4 podcast episodes a month. That's
52 in a year if they take no breaks. And if
they take guests for every single one of those episodes, which is
often not the case. So you just have to plan a little
bit ahead. So kinda think 3, 4 months out, you know, plan the
next quarter and start pitching, on that behalf. And
then, in terms of follow-up, I am curious what
everybody else has to say too because we have our own everybody has their own
strategies. You know? And here's the thing too. Like, I love, like,
learning from other people in the industry. Like, this is so I
love hearing from other people's strategies and what works for them. So,
it's all just, like, not competition at all. Like, I I love learning
from everyone. So if you do this as well, like, I hope you're taking notes
too. Follow-up, I for
podcasts, I do anywhere from, like, 10 to
14 days after I sent the initial pitch
if I haven't heard back. Obviously, if they have said an outright
no, I'm not following up with them because they said no.
But I like to give podcasters a little bit more time because,
again, it's a big ask
to you know, a podcaster one has a lot of things going
on. A lot of times, the podcast that you're pitching, they don't do their
podcast full time. It's like they're using their podcast as a marketing
tool. And so they need some time to be
able to think about, do I have space for this
person? Do I want this person? Does this fit into my content calendar that
I already have? I will say I
have never had somebody say, oh my
god. I can't believe you followed up, you horrible
person. I hate you. Don't ever talk to me again. I've only had
people say, thank you so much for following up because you might not
hear from someone for a 1000000 different reasons, and one of those
reasons is that they hate your pitch and think you're stupid. You know? Like, that's
not most of the time the reason why. It's they're on
vacation. They had a big launch. They're busy in business. Their
kids got sick. They got sick. You know? I don't know. There's a million reasons
why they didn't respond. So please, please
follow-up because that's where a lot of our bookings at least come from.
I'd love to hear it from everyone else on the panel if that's true for
them too. Yes. Let's let's pass this question along. I'll go to you, Angie,
first. Tell us about your process and especially
the follow ups. Yeah. We do similar. Our first follow-up
goes out anywhere between a week to 2 weeks
after the initial pitch. Typically, we have an automation and ClickUp that
sets it for 2 weeks being the due date. And then if we
don't hear back from that follow-up, we send one last
follow-up, and that typically is another 2 weeks later. We
may try to offer up a different topic.
Sometimes on that third outreach, we keep them very, very short. So
it's we don't repitch. We just actually respond to the
original pitch. Yeah. If we have looked at their show
and we see sort of an opportunity that's more timely in nature, we
will sometimes offer up a different topic, but it's pretty standard.
And I wanna thank you, Britney, for so you can tell that you came from
PR, because of the timeliness and how you're
looking at the calendar. Mhmm. And I think that's something we don't see that
a lot in podcast, which is a benefit, right, during election season. We're not
fighting the loud news media. But I think
it's something that we can all take to heart of, okay. Is there a way
that I can put a more timely slash urgent
spin on this topic to elicit some sort of
response. So I think that's really good for the listeners to kinda keep in mind.
Yeah. I think to that point, you know, we as a way
that we used it for a podcast pitch,
a how I don't it was earlier this year, I think, that,
Taylor Swift had, like, put together a
grief, like, playlist or something that, like, kinda made
news of her songs. And it was, like, the 5 stages of grief,
and she, like, put her songs, like, in each of the 5 stages.
Well, my client, has some myths about the 5
stages of grief. So we use that
as a talking point because Taylor Swift is very popular
to talk about. A lot of people talk about her. My
client was talking about grief. This was relevant to grief. And my client was
saying, you know, something against you know, something a little
bit divisive against what was being stated by the media. So not
everybody was, saying the same thing as my client,
which can be helpful in getting somebody to say yes to you.
Because a lot of times, all of us have received pitches, and it's
like you see the same talking points over and over and over again. It's like,
okay. Cool. Like, Joe Schmo and everybody can talk about this topic.
Like, give me something different. So that's just an example of, like,
we used a hook that's happening in media. So, like,
you know, looking at what's going on in media, what people are talking about.
Like you said, upcoming is the election year. People are
talking about that. Some people are gonna wanna put that into their pitches and
have something relevant, and some people aren't. You know, you don't have to go with
every topic that's being talked about. But if you can, if
it's an easy connection, that makes it
so you are relevant to talk to right now
versus I'm gonna put this person on the back burner and wait
to interview them, and then they never interview you. Yeah. I
100% agree with that. And and that's the thing that I'm finding with my
show is that there are so many interesting pitches that I get where I'm like,
Oh, okay. I am gonna do this, but it's gonna have to wait because there's
topical things that I have to talk about. Like our next episode after this
is marketing during an election year. And it's like, well, I talk about
that now. I can't talk about that, you know, in February. So it doesn't make
any sense. Right? So Yeah. Yeah. I love this. Okay. Mai-kee, from you,
what do you tell your students about following up? Like, what's the process
there? So it's very similar to what's already been shared. So for
me, in my pitch spreadsheet so there's a there's like a
tracker so you can keep track of everything. I always encourage them to put
the precise date that they have reached out to just so that they know how
long, you know, just can done it kinda do the math, with,
you know, when it's time to follow-up. So I always say between 7 to 10
days. I personally choose anywhere between 3 to 5 follow
ups. But just like, I think Angie said, just keep it short and sweet.
Reply to the actual thread that you already started in your email
because we're more likely to look at emails that have a little number next to
them. Like, it's like, oh, wait. Hang on. There's been 3 emails. Why have I
not opened this yet? So, that that's something that comes to
mind for sure. And something that I also wanna mention
is that when someone responds back to you with a not right
now, I follow-up and ask them when would be the
right time. And so, oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate that this may
not be the right season. Do you have a guesstimate time when it would be
better for me to reach out? 3 months, 6 months? So I'm already kind of
being a bit proactive for when to follow-up in the future. So case in
point, there was a video pitch that I I remember sending, and it
took me a year to get a yes because time just was not
on my side and the, the seasons. But the thing is, what
I kept doing was I stayed top of mind with both the team
member of that particular podcaster. Because that podcaster was pretty
big. So, their team handled more of the of
the emails. Right? Any of the pictures. So I even wound
up using the team member's name in my in my
repitch, if you will. So they're like, hey. I was like,
hey, host name. I was like, hey, team member name. I'm the one who
actually answers. It's it's great. So stay top of mind as well, and you'd be
surprised that what comes up. So just be proactive about it. That if you get
a knot right now, take that as an opportunity to ask when would be the
right time. Because you can reiterate your your passion, your
enthusiasm for wanting to share value and everything without re pitching
the entire thing. But, that would be a great opportunity for you to kinda,
like, wedge yourself in for a little later if time is not on your side
for your first point of contact. Yeah. The running thread I'm hearing in all of
this is be a freaking human. Like Yeah. There's humans living their
lives over here, and we can also be humans living our lives and also switching
the podcast and not being a robot, which I love. And I think there's a
there's a value in that for sure. There is.
Quick thing. Oh, so you know how earlier we're talking about rejection? Mhmm.
I I love that it's already been said in this conversation that
there are so many other things, so many reasons why someone would
not respond to you. And that's to me helped me not take it personally
because I'm like, I am not the center of anyone else's universe. And I need
to acknowledge that we all need to acknowledge that. You know, they have other things
to do, other priorities. So if you are particularly
sensitive to rejection like myself, and many of us here, it seems,
just remember that they have other things going on, and just do your
part. That's all you can do. You can send your 1st pitch. You can do
your follow ups between 7 to 10 days. And, if they
still don't respond, then, you know, you can either loop back to them again if
you want or, as I think Angie said, put in the crickets column. And who
knows? There might be someone who comes back one day. Yeah. I feel like I
need t shirts printed for people. I am not the center of the universe. Here.
Here's your t shirt. It's like, sometimes it does feel that way.
Okay. Angie, this question. I wanna ask about
success. So to me, sometimes success is, yay. I got
the, you know, I got the spot. But are there
any other measures of success as we're kinda diving into
pitching podcast? What can we look forward to be like, yes, I am doing the
right things? Yeah. I think getting
on the show can be a measure of success, but it does depend
on what the business goal is. All of us
here advocate for being very strategic and making sure
that you are getting in front of audiences that are most likely
to take action on what you want them to take action
on. So getting the yes is the first
step. Well, pitching strategically is the first step, then you get
the yes. Then you really have to decide what is the action
that I want the audience to take, and it goes back to
business goals. So if awareness is the goal, then,
yeah, getting on some of the bigger shows or a larger
number of shows can kind of check that box. Right?
But if your goal is to sell more books or to book
discovery calls or it really wouldn't be to grow your
LinkedIn following, but that could be a call to action that leads into
something else. If it's to grow your podcast,
then you need to keep that top of mind, and all of those are
measurable, and we measure all of those. So
I have seen a shift in the time that I've been doing this. I feel
like guesting was an incredible list builder back
in the day for email list growth. It still
happens, but not at all at the volume that it used
to. And so when we have new clients or if we're working with
PR firms that are pitching their clients, we need to be very
clear that if the success of your business
is dependent on your email list growing in size,
guesting is probably not the most immediate path
to success. Running ads would probably be your
best bet. But those other more human
centered ways of interaction and taking action are
totally best served from podcast guest because they hear you.
They get to know you. They like you. And then if you have one call
to action that's like, go sign up for my flop files or
go connect with me on LinkedIn and tell me what you thought, they feel
that human connection and are more compelled to do it. Yeah. And I'll say
anecdotally for myself, my best clients
and students come from podcasts that I've been guests on. Like
and they'll tell me I still remember, I was on
Claire Powell's podcast in what 2021?
2020? And one of my members who's still in my membership has
like gone to all my live events. She told me that she heard me on
that podcast. It was like, this is my vibe. And then, like, came into my
wall. And, like, to me, that's the beautiful thing about
podcast guesting because podcasting already is so intimate. Like, you're literally in someone's
head. And then being on someone else's podcast is
basically that host is vouching for you and
allowing you. It's like a huge honor to be on the show and
share your perspective. And so, to me,
the wins are, yes, getting more awareness, but in a way that is
more intimate than a lot of the other marketing florations, which I love. But it
is a long game. It's a long game for sure. For sure. Yeah. And
to give you some of that credit, you know, people hire
people like me and Angie to, you know, do it on their behalf
sometimes or if you're gonna DIY. So
getting the interview is great, but then the next part
is actually the biggest part is doing a good interview.
And so, Andrea, to, like, you know, brag on you,
that person resonated with you because you were prepared for
that interview. You interviewed well. You brought up good talking
points. You know, it's not just about
getting on the interview and, oh, then it's
just just easy. Like, then the the email list
floods in and the Instagram follows come. It's like, you have to do
a good job on the interview, and so you have to be prepared for those
interviews. And I think that's a part that sometimes
people forget about. It's like, that's really what you really where you
gotta succeed is, like, do a good interview
to get people to, you know, wanna sign up for your services or
discovery call or buy your book or whatever. And so a lot of
times for us in the, you know, done for you services way where we're
representing clients, it's like I can do
everything up until you have to do the interview. I have to
have a client that can deliver good talking points.
I can teach them as much as I can, but at the end of the
day, I can't do the interview on their behalf. They have to do that.
That's on them. So I think that that's something to keep in mind
too of just, like, practicing your talking points, being a
good interviewee, you know, all of that kind of stuff.
Yeah. I think that that's like a whole I we may need, like, a part
2 to this episode. We need a part 2 panel. I I I have things
to say. The pitch. Yeah. You got the pitch. Now what? Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. Roundtable part 2, we'll schedule it in for the New Year.
Okay. Last I have 2 more questions for all of you.
The first question is, what's one thing you wish you had known
when you started? Meike, I wanna start with you. What's one thing you
wish you had known when you started pitching?
There could have been so many things, but the one that I chose to land
with is this one. You don't need to be
on as many podcasts as you think you
do. I'm seeing some really deep nods there,
especially on Britney. The reason why is
because every podcast you're ever going to be on
is pretty much gonna live on the Internet forever. They
are gonna be brilliant for backlinking to your website.
And once you get a good momentum of, you know,
getting some podcast appearances under your belt, you also might just find
that you're gonna get invitations because now you've built up a reputation.
You are known for something, as Angie was saying earlier. Like, be known for
something. And, it's gonna significantly reduce your
need for pitching. Obviously, it depends on your personal goals and your measures
of success. But it's because I remember that how
I made it in this world, like, quote, unquote made it in this world, is
I made quite a splash in the copywriting world in particular back in
2019. And the reason why is because I pitched to
this is a cautionary tale. Do not do this. Okay? I pitched
to a 101 podcasters in 30 days, and
they were all personalized, all very researched, and I
got a 33% booking rate.
And I kind of I don't regret doing it, but I will never do it
again. Because then if at one point, I
stopped myself from pitching on a certain day, if it started feeling
transactional and I think that's the key here, that when you only
chase the numbers and you forget the human intimate connection
that can happen from podcast guesting, then then you
kind of, like, miss the point. You know? And so you really don't need
to be on as many podcasts as you think you do. And every podcast is
repurposeable. So say if you had a timely
thing in your world, that's something that's time sensitive, maybe a launch. You can always
bring back an old podcast episode to kind of, like, showcase your authority
that you know what you're talking about in this area. And also don't
underestimate the fact that if you built that beautiful bridge of a
relationship, 1, that host can invite you back.
2, that host can recommend you to other people. And 3, just
as, Andrea has experienced, when you build that
relationship, you will find that the best people will
stay in your orbit because they trust you.
And, you might just find some, I like to call them backdoor opportunities
that otherwise wouldn't have been available to you. And that's because you took the time
and the effort to really show up, not just in the pitch, but on
the interview, and you've really made your mark. So you don't
need to be on as many as you think you do. Yeah. I think this
episode is a great example of that. All of you I don't think any of
you pitched me. I was just like, I need I wanna do a roundtable on
this topic, and I know exactly who I need to ask. You know? So I
feel like that is case in point. Okay. Britney, over to you. What's one thing
you wish you'd known when you started?
What I would suggest to people is
think outside of just the
top 200 podcasts, you know, the big,
big podcasts. I think a lot of times, especially when people
get started and they're trying to pitch themselves to these opportunities, they really
look at the very big podcast. When I say very big, I mean
the ones at the top of the Apple charts, Spotify charts, the
ones that have 5,000 ratings, 6000 ratings, all of
that kind of stuff. To be honest, if
you're new to being a guest on a podcast, most
likely, you are not going to get on to those very
big podcasts without having some type of
connection, relationship, introduction, being a
student of those people. I'm not gonna say that it never happens, but
it it rarely happens. You need to kinda build up.
And I've been on some bid big podcast myself.
I've been on, you know, midsized podcasts. I've been on smaller
podcasts, same with my clients. And a lot of times people
discount those small to midsized podcasts because they think it's not
worth their time, because they're not as
big. Bigger does not always mean you're gonna
get the biggest return on investment of your time.
Everybody here is nodding because they know because because they know. This is a
lesson we all learned. Okay? So,
again, that's why we, as an agency, we do pitch big
podcasts. You know, I'm not saying not to do it at all, but,
finding those niche podcast guys, there's a podcast on literally every single
topic you can think of. Like, you are a fly fishing expert.
I don't know. There's fly fishing podcasts. Okay? Like, any
topic you can think of, there's a niche for it. So, and a
lot of times, those listeners, you know, it it might
small but mighty. And so those people take
action. They really trust the podcast host and
who that person invites on. And, I mean, I'll just
speak to my experience. Sometimes when I've been on
bigger podcasts, do I get a flood of
requests to work with me? Yes. Are they all people that I want
to work with? No. That
bad. On some of the smaller podcasts, it's like I get
really quality leads from, and I'm like, this
is the podcast for me. Like, I wanna come back on this podcast. I wanna
be a regular guest. So really don't discount
those small to midsize podcasts because those can actually be a
lot more effective overall for your business or
whatever your goals are with doing podcasting versus
some of the big ones where you think it's going to be this big splash.
And maybe sometimes it is, and sometimes it sends you a bunch
of people that maybe you don't necessarily wanna work with.
Yeah. Yeah. A hard degree. Hard degree. Love that one.
Angie, over to you. What's one thing you wish you had known when you started?
That there's no such thing as a perfect pitch.
That like, the bar for standing out is fairly
low. And if you go back to just being a
human in your communications, being your authentic
selves, it it can work. You know, you can get
the yeses, which will get you to the interview to be able to figure out
if it's a strategy that makes sense and works for you.
So it's just that it's far simpler
than I think I built it up to be because I started it as a
freelancer after pitching myself to be a guest. And then when
I started pitching clients, I think I got
nervous that then I had to be a professional pitcher.
And nothing I don't have a formal PR background. You know?
It's just being human in communications, and that is what converts
in podcasting. Yes. Love that. Love that. Human
humanism at all. That's it. Okay. One more question. But before I get to
that, listeners, gotta remind you what's happening in the Savvy Social School.
Coming up, we have a brand new session called the content collab. It's part
brainstorming, part masterminding. I have all of the ideas. Come on in and
join me if you're in the school, and we'll come up with ideas together for
your content, that's atsavvysocialschool.com. Alright.
Last question for our guests. What's coming up next for your
business? Mai-kee, let's start with you. There
could be so many things. I'm just gonna keep it nice and simple. So,
so I mentioned in this episode that I do have a DIY
course on podcast guesting. So it's not just the pitch stuff. It's
everything before, during and after. So I'm working on
its final evolution of my ultimate podcast guesting
course. But the reason why I'm upgrading it is because I just wanna, like,
splinter it into, like, little bite sized mini lessons. I wanna incorporate an
Easter icon, a decision making tree so you're not wasting time going
through the entire course. You can just find the exact lesson you want. And also
including co pitching calls. So actually having some accountability for
all my members for I'm actually making sure they're
writing pictures every quarter at least just so that they've got something going on. So
taking, Britney's advice of, like, you know, being timely, like, each quarter and
what's coming up in the next quarter, that would be a fantastic way to go.
So that final evolution is gonna be coming out at the end of 2024. So
at the time of this recording, depending on where you're listening, is at w
www.makeysound.comforward/upg, if you're
interested in checking that out. And, yeah, that's really exciting for me
because of all the fun stuff. Because I've done digital Easter egg hunts and
they're so fun. They're little prize, like, little dopamine hits throughout the
course you're gonna be able to find. So I'm really excited for that. That's so
cute. I love that. Congrats on the final evolution of that course. Love it. And
I'll put all the links mentioned in the show notes on landraya.com/324.
Brittney, over to you. What's next for you and your business?
Yes. Thank you so much. What I have coming up in my
business, I, again, so, founder of Human
Connection Agency. You can go check out our website, human connection agency.com, for
our services. We really focus on doing
done for you for clients. So not only just
podcasting, publication pitching, TV pitching,
speaking partnerships, all of that kind of stuff. And so I'm really
focusing on working with more authors. So if you have a book
coming out in 2025 and you need PR support,
whether you are with a traditional publisher or a midsize publisher,
I promise you you will need extra PR support
because the publishers are not gonna have enough time to support you.
So I've been working on a lot of books over the past
couple of years, and I really love doing that and helping authors really
just, like, bring their book to more and more people. I love reading.
So it's really just a passion of mine. So if you're an author
that has a book coming out in 2025, hit me up. Go to human connection
unity.com. Yay. Awesome. Thanks, Britney. And, Angie, over to you.
What's coming up next for you and your business? Yeah. So over the
summer, the PodWise Group started leaning into our
consulting and training with PR firms,
and I have loved every minute of it. So
helping firms that have never pitched their clients for podcast or helping
optimize what they are doing, has been great.
So workshopping in real time and then even licensing some of our
internal training. So we're just gonna continue leaning into
that, connecting with firm owners and
their account execs, and that's really where the Flap Files
newsletter came from. So if anyone wants to check it out, it's at the
podwisegroup.com/flopfiles.
Yeah. Beautiful. And I'll have all those links for y'all in the
show notes, onlinedre.com/324. Thank you so much everyone for being
on this episode. It's so fun. So so fun. Thank you so much for having
us. Thank you. Yes. Thank you.
I love it. Alright. Next up on the podcast. I'm talking about
marketing during an election year because y'all it is noisy out here and I
wanna talk about what we're doing and ask some questions,
give you some prompts, things to think about. So that will be coming up next
on the podcast. In the meantime, make sure you give us a 5 star rating
on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It helps keep us in the top 100
marketing podcast, and that's all because of you and your support, which I so
appreciate. Thank you so much. I'll be back next Tuesday. Bye for
now.