1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:04,560 My absolute favorite way to get a client is 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:08,480 not from social media. It's not from email. It is 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,080 from my friends. They send me the best clients. In today's 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,600 episode, we're going to talk about how we make new friends, build 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,400 relationships and have the people that we know be a 6 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,040 resource for us as we're building our business. We have the amazing Jessica 7 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,760 Abel on the show today to talk all about that and more. But 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,410 first, a word from our sponsor. Riverside is the all 9 00:00:30,410 --> 00:00:34,090 in one podcast recording and editing tool that I use for this 10 00:00:34,090 --> 00:00:37,890 right here show. 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The links in 21 00:01:14,870 --> 00:01:18,430 the show notes and make sure to use my code DREA D R E A 22 00:01:18,430 --> 00:01:21,750 at checkout to get 15% off your membership. 23 00:01:22,710 --> 00:01:26,190 Welcome to episode number 367 of the Mindful Marketing 24 00:01:26,190 --> 00:01:29,810 Podcast where I'm on a mission to help you with simpler, smart, 25 00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:33,240 smarter marketing. Especially for those of you out here who are 26 00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:37,000 busy like me and I'm excited to just pick Jessica's 27 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,760 brain today. Jessica, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. I'm 28 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,200 super excited to be here. I'm also very excited that you're here. 29 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,000 I feel like I've known of you for a while, but it 30 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,720 wasn't until recently when we worked together on your last event 31 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,800 that I really got to know more about your work and what you do. But 32 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,600 for those people tuning in, tell us a little bit about your history and how 33 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,990 you got into relationship based marketing. Sure. 34 00:02:02,470 --> 00:02:06,270 I have a background as an artist, basically artist and writer. 35 00:02:06,270 --> 00:02:10,110 I'm a cartoonist. I've published a number of graphic novels 36 00:02:10,110 --> 00:02:13,910 and book length comics including out on the 37 00:02:13,910 --> 00:02:17,190 Wire, probably one of my best. Known books, which is about. It's a 38 00:02:17,190 --> 00:02:20,630 nonfiction book about narrative techniques on 39 00:02:20,950 --> 00:02:24,790 long form audio. So podcasting, radio, this American 40 00:02:24,790 --> 00:02:28,550 Life, Radiolab, that kind of thing like how do. They build their stories? 41 00:02:29,590 --> 00:02:33,130 And that's my background. About 10 years ago 42 00:02:33,130 --> 00:02:35,810 or so I. Was finishing out on the Wire 43 00:02:36,930 --> 00:02:40,490 and You know, this is a book that I'm extremely proud of and, 44 00:02:40,490 --> 00:02:43,770 and love how it went into the world. And it's still, you know, it's being 45 00:02:43,770 --> 00:02:47,570 used in, by all kinds of people in classrooms and all kinds of stuff. But 46 00:02:47,570 --> 00:02:51,330 making comics is, it's grueling, let's just be honest. 47 00:02:51,330 --> 00:02:55,170 Like, it's just this incredibly difficult process. And 48 00:02:55,170 --> 00:02:58,930 I had been making comics for 20 years plus at that point. I'd been 49 00:02:58,930 --> 00:03:02,700 teaching. I wrote two textbooks about comics, like deep in that world. And, 50 00:03:02,930 --> 00:03:06,730 and what I had not been. Able to figure out 51 00:03:06,730 --> 00:03:10,290 was how to. Make a living as an author, how to 52 00:03:10,290 --> 00:03:14,130 make selling books work for me. And so 53 00:03:14,130 --> 00:03:17,970 I was doing what most authors do, which is I was teaching, I had 54 00:03:18,050 --> 00:03:20,530 adjunct teaching jobs. I was, 55 00:03:22,130 --> 00:03:25,130 you know, I had jobs as an editor. You know, I was the series editor 56 00:03:25,130 --> 00:03:28,890 for the best American Comics series from Houghton Mifflin. I was an illustrator 57 00:03:28,890 --> 00:03:32,570 for a long time. So I would do, you know, magazine newspaper illustration, stuff like 58 00:03:32,570 --> 00:03:36,370 that. So all kinds of different jobs 59 00:03:36,690 --> 00:03:40,370 to try to support my author career. And 60 00:03:40,370 --> 00:03:43,650 being an author who is a cartoonist means 61 00:03:45,010 --> 00:03:48,730 so much more physical labor and just time goes into literally creating 62 00:03:48,730 --> 00:03:52,330 the book. Which isn't to say authors who don't make comics aren't working hard, 63 00:03:52,330 --> 00:03:56,050 they're working really hard. I'm not trying to say that, but, you know, I 64 00:03:56,050 --> 00:03:59,810 basically wrote and edited. The entire book and then had 10. Months 65 00:04:00,810 --> 00:04:04,410 of, you know, 10 hour days to actually draw it right. 66 00:04:04,490 --> 00:04:08,050 So I was burnt out. I was just like burnt to a crisp at that 67 00:04:08,050 --> 00:04:11,850 point. I made my own podcast at the end of it, using all these principles, 68 00:04:11,850 --> 00:04:15,290 you know, just kind of like kept it going. And I was kind of staring 69 00:04:15,290 --> 00:04:19,130 down the barrel of like another book. Like, you know, I. 70 00:04:19,210 --> 00:04:22,730 The advances that I earned on that. Book were long gone. And, 71 00:04:23,210 --> 00:04:25,770 you know, most books never earn out and earn royalties. 72 00:04:26,970 --> 00:04:30,690 Little secret of the industry. Like most of them just don't. They don't earn any 73 00:04:30,690 --> 00:04:34,410 more money after the advance. It's normal. And I 74 00:04:34,410 --> 00:04:36,930 just, I was like, how can I do this again? I just don't know how 75 00:04:36,930 --> 00:04:40,650 I can keep going. So that's when I 76 00:04:40,650 --> 00:04:43,210 started learning about business 77 00:04:43,850 --> 00:04:47,570 explicitly. Now obviously I had been in business for 20 78 00:04:47,570 --> 00:04:50,770 years, but I never thought of it that way. And I think that's something I 79 00:04:50,770 --> 00:04:54,540 find with my audience of people in the creative fields. 80 00:04:54,780 --> 00:04:58,460 Very frequently they get into whatever they're doing because they love what they're 81 00:04:58,460 --> 00:05:01,300 doing, they want more time for it. So they try to make it professional and 82 00:05:01,300 --> 00:05:05,020 make it a business. But they have no, like learning, no Training 83 00:05:05,020 --> 00:05:08,739 around that, which, you know. And I've also discovered that no one else does 84 00:05:08,739 --> 00:05:11,820 either. You know, it's not like there's some segment of people who gets out of 85 00:05:11,820 --> 00:05:15,020 school. Like, I know what to do. Like, nobody learns this stuff in school. 86 00:05:15,660 --> 00:05:19,300 So that's where I was at. And I also, as an 87 00:05:19,300 --> 00:05:23,150 artist and sort of, you know, former, like I was 88 00:05:23,550 --> 00:05:27,110 in bands, like all this other stuff business was literally the 89 00:05:27,110 --> 00:05:30,830 enemy, you know, it was like, that is the enemy camp. And 90 00:05:30,830 --> 00:05:34,350 it was so hard for me to figure out how to 91 00:05:34,350 --> 00:05:37,470 translate all of the stuff I was learning into 92 00:05:38,430 --> 00:05:41,710 terms I could make my mouth say without 93 00:05:41,790 --> 00:05:45,510 gagging. You know, it was just like so difficult to do 94 00:05:45,510 --> 00:05:49,110 that. And one of the first people I found, very fortunately, was Tara 95 00:05:49,110 --> 00:05:52,300 McMullen, who is very straightforward and 96 00:05:53,180 --> 00:05:56,940 clear and ethical and honest about all of this 97 00:05:56,940 --> 00:06:00,060 stuff. What she was teaching was way over. My head, 98 00:06:00,860 --> 00:06:04,620 but I loved the way she taught it and I felt like I could really 99 00:06:04,620 --> 00:06:08,420 trust her. She wasn't skeezy and trying to put anything 100 00:06:08,420 --> 00:06:12,220 over on anybody. She was really trying to go deep and 101 00:06:12,220 --> 00:06:15,740 foundational, which if anybody listening knows Tara's work, 102 00:06:16,340 --> 00:06:20,100 that's her mo, Very deep. So 103 00:06:20,500 --> 00:06:23,700 I was learning this stuff as fast as I could. It was really hard. 104 00:06:24,420 --> 00:06:28,100 And still I, you know, so I. Basically, as somebody who'd been a 105 00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:31,860 professor. For, at that point, 15 years 106 00:06:33,300 --> 00:06:37,100 plus the classroom is what 107 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:40,860 I know. You know, running courses and building curriculum. 108 00:06:40,860 --> 00:06:44,380 I mean, like I said, I'd written two textbooks, so I made a course. 109 00:06:44,780 --> 00:06:47,980 One does, right? And this was 2015, 110 00:06:48,620 --> 00:06:52,180 so I made. The first version of the Creative Focus. Workshop, which is still a 111 00:06:52,180 --> 00:06:55,780 course that I run and love. It's evolved 112 00:06:55,780 --> 00:06:59,539 massively since then, obviously. And that was so 113 00:06:59,539 --> 00:07:03,140 much better than. In terms of financially in time and. Stuff, in terms 114 00:07:03,140 --> 00:07:06,660 of trying to make a living for my family than being an author 115 00:07:06,660 --> 00:07:09,660 was. And yet it still didn't really 116 00:07:10,780 --> 00:07:14,500 like, it didn't close the gap. You know, I got another teaching 117 00:07:14,500 --> 00:07:17,900 job at that point. In fact, it was a department, department head job, 118 00:07:18,060 --> 00:07:21,500 full time professor job. That's the first time I'd been full time 119 00:07:22,060 --> 00:07:25,860 at that point and kept 120 00:07:25,860 --> 00:07:29,540 that until like a year ago because that's what I needed to fill the gap. 121 00:07:29,540 --> 00:07:32,380 So to compress all the sort of business journey part 122 00:07:33,180 --> 00:07:36,620 10 years of learning stuff. It really took me about 123 00:07:37,370 --> 00:07:40,890 six of those years at least, to start to grasp how important 124 00:07:41,610 --> 00:07:45,410 business models are. Like the choice of your business model, what 125 00:07:45,410 --> 00:07:49,010 does your offer look like, how is it priced? You know, how much 126 00:07:49,010 --> 00:07:52,650 time does it take? And then how does that relate 127 00:07:52,650 --> 00:07:56,330 to your marketing, how does that relate to how 128 00:07:56,330 --> 00:07:59,130 you're going out into the world? Because all of those things, 129 00:08:00,090 --> 00:08:03,890 the thing that doesn't work as an author is capacity, 130 00:08:03,890 --> 00:08:07,390 right? Like the amount of time it takes. To put into creating these 131 00:08:07,390 --> 00:08:11,150 works versus. The amount of money you can make from them. You know, with obviously 132 00:08:11,150 --> 00:08:13,910 unicorn exceptions. But for the vast majority of authors, 133 00:08:15,030 --> 00:08:17,990 it's just totally out of whack. You know, like you're selling something and you make 134 00:08:17,990 --> 00:08:21,350 a profit of if it's self published, maybe you're making $6 on it. If it's, 135 00:08:21,350 --> 00:08:25,150 you know, commercially published, maybe. You'Re making a dollar fifty. You know, the number of 136 00:08:25,150 --> 00:08:28,590 books you need to sell and the way you. Would need to do marketing to 137 00:08:28,590 --> 00:08:32,190 sell that number of units of thing. No one 138 00:08:32,190 --> 00:08:34,950 tells you that. Like, no one explains 139 00:08:35,979 --> 00:08:39,659 the, the exponential. Numbers you would need to be in. Front 140 00:08:39,659 --> 00:08:43,339 of to make that work outside of, again, kind of 141 00:08:43,739 --> 00:08:46,779 zeitgeisty, you know, unicorn events. 142 00:08:47,259 --> 00:08:50,939 And so, like, literally no one ever taught me that. And, 143 00:08:50,939 --> 00:08:54,699 and eventually I figured it out through working with different coaches on different 144 00:08:54,699 --> 00:08:58,539 things. And like seeing having this calculator here and that calculator there and going like, 145 00:08:58,859 --> 00:09:02,699 oh, now I see that I would need to have an audience 146 00:09:02,699 --> 00:09:06,390 of like 5 million people in order to be. Able 147 00:09:06,390 --> 00:09:10,190 to sell a hundred thousand books. You know, in 148 00:09:10,190 --> 00:09:13,950 a year. Like, I would need that scale. And to 149 00:09:13,950 --> 00:09:17,670 have that scale means having. A kind of lifestyle. In terms of the. What 150 00:09:17,670 --> 00:09:20,990 you're doing with your marketing, I just don't. I mean, if you're trying to write 151 00:09:20,990 --> 00:09:24,310 books and make comics, you don't have time for that. Even if you wanted to 152 00:09:24,310 --> 00:09:27,590 do it, you don't have time. So all of those things were just. Like, crashing 153 00:09:27,590 --> 00:09:30,230 down around me over time. Where I was like, oh, my God, that, that, that, 154 00:09:30,230 --> 00:09:34,070 that. All these different ways in which these sort of 155 00:09:34,070 --> 00:09:37,590 underlying structures fit together mathematically, you know, there's. It's not hard 156 00:09:37,590 --> 00:09:41,110 math. It's just nobody learns it. And so as 157 00:09:41,110 --> 00:09:44,750 I've gradually gone through my business journey, I've become a business 158 00:09:44,750 --> 00:09:48,190 coach for people who have creative businesses 159 00:09:48,510 --> 00:09:52,230 to try to help them understand how to apply these principles and 160 00:09:52,230 --> 00:09:55,950 actually design something that could work for them, including the marketing. Because 161 00:09:56,030 --> 00:09:59,760 that's the. I think the biggest piece of this is like, not 162 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,520 understanding how to match up the marketing that you're doing with the thing that you're 163 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,040 offering and whether. If the thing is something that 164 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,760 requires. That massive kind of traffic, understanding what that's going to require, 165 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,440 and vice versa, like, how can you fix that by fixing your offer 166 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,280 and fixing your business model first and then 167 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:22,160 matching up the marketing style, which is going to be a more relationship based marketing 168 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,180 style. That was a long answer. I hope we got where we need to get. 169 00:10:25,580 --> 00:10:29,180 Love it. And I hope everyone listening is like me taking notes. I have a 170 00:10:29,180 --> 00:10:32,820 couple follow up questions because I'm like, okay, I'm really curious 171 00:10:32,820 --> 00:10:35,820 about this, but what I loved what you said is 172 00:10:36,140 --> 00:10:39,820 specifically for my creative folks out there in the world, 173 00:10:40,700 --> 00:10:44,540 we want our pie in the sky dream is 174 00:10:44,540 --> 00:10:47,820 we create the thing and then people just come and find it and they fall 175 00:10:47,820 --> 00:10:51,220 in love with it and suddenly everybody loves it like that. That's our goal going 176 00:10:51,220 --> 00:10:54,700 into it. And then we realize somewhere in there 177 00:10:55,100 --> 00:10:58,860 that we actually spend more time and energy and effort on 178 00:10:58,860 --> 00:11:02,620 marketing the thing and it builds a sort of resentment up. And I 179 00:11:02,620 --> 00:11:06,420 think that's very common. I just love that you kind of pointed this out. Especially 180 00:11:06,420 --> 00:11:09,980 for creative people, it's hard to build a business 181 00:11:10,060 --> 00:11:13,700 off of that model. I love that you put, you brought up authorship as an 182 00:11:13,700 --> 00:11:17,140 example because you do have to live almost like an 183 00:11:17,140 --> 00:11:20,720 influencer, celebrity style life to be able to 184 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,720 fuel that, that passion. And so I think this is something 185 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,240 that people don't talk about enough. And I'm glad that you pointed that out. 186 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:32,360 Yeah. Because people get so, so first of all, not if anybody's experiencing that. 187 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,519 It's not your fault. This is what we're told is going to work. You know, 188 00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:39,280 you do a thing and it's great enough and people come. You know, no one. 189 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,480 When you're going through school, you're going through art school, you're going through liberal arts 190 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,330 school, you're learning your, your, your craft. It never 191 00:11:46,330 --> 00:11:50,170 comes up that this is a part of that. The 192 00:11:50,170 --> 00:11:54,010 business model picture that you have a business model, that there is one. Like none 193 00:11:54,010 --> 00:11:57,730 of that comes up. And so if it's, you know, confusing and you wish 194 00:11:57,730 --> 00:12:00,610 it were a different way, I get it. I mean, it's not. Didn't come out 195 00:12:00,610 --> 00:12:04,370 of nowhere, but yeah, this thing. And I think that people end up 196 00:12:04,370 --> 00:12:08,170 in a situation where they're like not making enough money. They're working 197 00:12:08,170 --> 00:12:11,930 their asses off. Excuse me, working their butts off. You 198 00:12:11,930 --> 00:12:14,850 can, you can say this is a safe space, okay. 199 00:12:17,170 --> 00:12:21,010 To bring in whatever they're bringing in. They're working too many jobs. 200 00:12:21,010 --> 00:12:24,690 I have this whole idea, this like term that I use is cyclical 201 00:12:24,690 --> 00:12:26,610 burnout, that creatives get into 202 00:12:28,370 --> 00:12:32,170 too many jobs to try to just fund their life and they're baffled 203 00:12:32,170 --> 00:12:35,250 and resentful. Like, why do I Have to show up. You know, why are people 204 00:12:35,250 --> 00:12:38,050 telling me to show up on Instagram? And I show up on Instagram and nobody 205 00:12:38,050 --> 00:12:40,810 does anything, and I'm not selling. The things I need to sell. And I can't. 206 00:12:40,810 --> 00:12:43,560 You know, I've sold a bunch of these. People love them, but I can't get 207 00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:47,120 it beyond X point. You know, like, it tops out here. 208 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,960 It's also baffling if you don't understand that underlying, you 209 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,600 know, literally mathematical relationship between the. 210 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,600 The number. Like, what the numbers are. Yeah, yeah. I'm so glad that 211 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,360 you brought this up, because I do think that this 212 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,040 is part of the. The challenge of social media 213 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,640 is that the people who are successful make it look so easy 214 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,380 because that's part of the appeal. We don't want to see 215 00:13:14,460 --> 00:13:18,180 them. Them ugly crying in the shower that morning because 216 00:13:18,180 --> 00:13:21,260 they have to. They have to put on makeup that day because they have to 217 00:13:21,260 --> 00:13:24,940 film content because. Because that's. That's their job. It's not the creative 218 00:13:24,940 --> 00:13:28,780 side. So I'm glad that you're pointing that out, but the next question that pops 219 00:13:28,780 --> 00:13:32,380 up for me with this conversation is, okay, so 220 00:13:32,380 --> 00:13:36,180 let's say we're creative, we've made our thing, we want to keep making 221 00:13:36,180 --> 00:13:39,980 it, and now we're staring at this, this giant challenge 222 00:13:39,980 --> 00:13:43,750 in front of us of finding 5 million people who want to consume the thing. 223 00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:47,070 What do we do now? Do we. How do we. Like, where do we start 224 00:13:47,070 --> 00:13:50,670 with this idea of offer creation that suits our 225 00:13:50,670 --> 00:13:54,510 lifestyle? I think that's a super good question, and it's 226 00:13:54,510 --> 00:13:58,309 not an answer people love, because what they want is for me to say, 227 00:13:58,309 --> 00:14:02,030 oh, well, there is an answer to this. Living off, you 228 00:14:02,030 --> 00:14:05,190 know, your book sales or living off, you know, doing 229 00:14:05,830 --> 00:14:09,430 like, ceramics workshops for building your creative, 230 00:14:10,050 --> 00:14:13,730 you know, mojo, or, you know, life coaching, same kind of thing. It's like 231 00:14:13,810 --> 00:14:17,530 all these different things you want to do, they're like life giving, but 232 00:14:17,530 --> 00:14:21,370 somehow you can't get them to connect in the way, like 233 00:14:21,370 --> 00:14:25,010 through these kinds of channels. Right. And I think that the. 234 00:14:25,250 --> 00:14:27,410 The answer for me is to 235 00:14:28,610 --> 00:14:32,170 separate the creative work that you want to be doing. Like the 236 00:14:32,170 --> 00:14:35,730 actual, like, literal thing that is the, you know, sort of expression of your 237 00:14:36,550 --> 00:14:38,950 greatest, you know, creative 238 00:14:39,670 --> 00:14:43,350 impulses for making money. Which doesn't mean don't 239 00:14:43,350 --> 00:14:47,190 use your creativity in a business do. But you have 240 00:14:47,190 --> 00:14:50,430 to look at all the threads of things that go into your skill set and 241 00:14:50,430 --> 00:14:53,350 kind of tease those apart and say, all right, I'm going to use these 242 00:14:54,150 --> 00:14:57,950 because these have a service implication that's very 243 00:14:57,950 --> 00:15:01,510 Strong for a client base. Like, I can create a 244 00:15:01,750 --> 00:15:05,380 service out of these things that I do for a client 245 00:15:05,380 --> 00:15:09,060 base who they need it and they will pay for it. 246 00:15:09,380 --> 00:15:13,020 And then these other things, I'm going to do these because I love them and 247 00:15:13,020 --> 00:15:16,420 I'm going to build a business that makes space for them, makes time for 248 00:15:16,660 --> 00:15:20,500 those activities. Doesn't mean I can't be professional 249 00:15:20,500 --> 00:15:23,300 at those things. I can still be like, I can still be a published author, 250 00:15:23,300 --> 00:15:27,060 I can still, you know, sell books and whatever. But if I, as long as 251 00:15:27,060 --> 00:15:30,830 I'm. Not trying to make that, pay my. Mortgage, I can make money 252 00:15:30,830 --> 00:15:34,590 at that. But it doesn't, you know, it's the weight on those things. 253 00:15:34,590 --> 00:15:37,630 And so figuring out how to take the weight off this 254 00:15:37,950 --> 00:15:41,670 creative expression makes the creative expression better, right? It 255 00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:45,070 makes it freer, it makes it something. And this is what everybody kind of dreams 256 00:15:45,070 --> 00:15:47,590 of is like, the money's gonna pour in, you do whatever you want. Right? But 257 00:15:47,590 --> 00:15:51,350 that's not how it works. And so how can you 258 00:15:51,350 --> 00:15:55,070 engineer that in some sense? Like engineer the situation 259 00:15:55,150 --> 00:15:58,940 where you have enough money maybe not pouring in, but at 260 00:15:58,940 --> 00:16:02,300 least coming in to make it possible to 261 00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:06,140 pursue the creative work that you want to be doing. And you know, 262 00:16:06,140 --> 00:16:08,940 a lot of people I work with are not like big C creatives. They're not 263 00:16:08,940 --> 00:16:12,580 painters, they're not, you know, you know, cartoonists or 264 00:16:12,580 --> 00:16:16,420 whatever. They, they just are kind of creatively. Oriented and, and 265 00:16:16,420 --> 00:16:20,140 even building a business itself is a creative act. I mean, anyone 266 00:16:20,140 --> 00:16:23,600 listening to this is like, I'm not creative enough. Like, no, you are. Like, if 267 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,160 you're making something up out of your head, like, it is a very creative act. 268 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,200 But like, you know, even, even for somebody who's just, 269 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,480 who's just quote, unquote, just building a business and using their 270 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,240 creativity in that way, there are going to be offers you have in mind or 271 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,000 ideas for programs or ideas for, you know, books 272 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,000 or content that don't really fit into 273 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,130 what you can sell very well, but you really want to do those things. And 274 00:16:50,130 --> 00:16:53,530 so if you're not somebody who identifies as like a capital A artist, 275 00:16:54,170 --> 00:16:57,610 think about that. That's what I'm talking about, like being able to do those things 276 00:16:58,010 --> 00:17:01,650 because you feel a mission to serve a certain audience or you want to talk 277 00:17:01,650 --> 00:17:05,490 about a certain topic and it needs to be in the world, but it 278 00:17:05,490 --> 00:17:08,970 doesn't necessarily like fit into the 279 00:17:08,970 --> 00:17:11,450 neat, you know, space of what you're doing 280 00:17:12,090 --> 00:17:15,450 professionally. That is like a solid money making 281 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,320 service. And this is the other big thing is that 282 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,560 most, a lot of creative people want to create whatever it is, 283 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,880 essentially what, no matter what form it takes, it's a product, right? It's like 284 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,719 pre created. It's something that exists. And then you try to find an audience for 285 00:17:31,719 --> 00:17:35,000 that and sell the thing, which is inherently challenging. 286 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,120 Just trying to find enough people who already want that thing and who are. 287 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,560 Already in that audience. It's just hard. It's just like, you know, it's a lot 288 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,520 of work to find those people. Not impossible, just a lot of, A lot of 289 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,640 work. But if you are creating something that's a service 290 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,920 of some kind or another, then if 291 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,480 you're doing it with strategy and 292 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,320 forethought, you are creating something that already, there's already a need 293 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,720 for it. People are already looking for it and. They want to buy that thing. 294 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,800 And also, this is also very important. For this whole model thing is 295 00:18:09,690 --> 00:18:12,970 it. Needs to be something that's priced at. A relatively premium level, 296 00:18:13,610 --> 00:18:17,370 depending on what your financial needs are. Maybe very premium, maybe like medium 297 00:18:17,370 --> 00:18:20,970 premium. You know, but it needs to be priced high or 298 00:18:21,370 --> 00:18:25,090 you're gonna be stuck. Trying to sell to many, many, many people because of those 299 00:18:25,090 --> 00:18:28,730 exponential numbers. And that means you're gonna be spending all your time doing 300 00:18:28,730 --> 00:18:32,090 marketing. So if you want to do only a portion of your time doing 301 00:18:32,090 --> 00:18:35,850 marketing, you know, and keep that under control, you have to have an 302 00:18:35,850 --> 00:18:39,510 offer that has a higher price point. That's what the math tells us. Period. 303 00:18:39,670 --> 00:18:43,110 Yes, 100%. I'm co signing everything 304 00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:47,070 that you were saying, because this is a challenge that I bump into a 305 00:18:47,070 --> 00:18:50,390 lot. And I don't know if you experience this as well, but it's a hard 306 00:18:50,390 --> 00:18:54,230 conversation to have because by the time someone comes to me and 307 00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:58,030 they're asking me for support with their marketing, we're trying to force 308 00:18:58,030 --> 00:19:01,190 in a marketing plan that works for an offer, when really 309 00:19:01,590 --> 00:19:05,270 the offer is what needs to be examined. And not just the author, 310 00:19:05,350 --> 00:19:08,990 the person delivering the offer too. Because a lot of my people, 311 00:19:08,990 --> 00:19:12,050 they don't actually, actually like marketing. That's why they come to me. Like, the people 312 00:19:12,050 --> 00:19:15,690 who, who love it, they, they don't really need me that much. Okay. But 313 00:19:15,690 --> 00:19:19,410 it, my people are like, okay, I, I'm, I don't want to post Instagram 314 00:19:19,410 --> 00:19:23,050 stories like what, what else can I do? And, 315 00:19:23,050 --> 00:19:26,610 and honestly, when you create this product as you're 316 00:19:26,610 --> 00:19:29,810 describing it, you create it once and then you try to sell it. 317 00:19:30,210 --> 00:19:33,570 The requirements for marketing, something like that are 318 00:19:33,570 --> 00:19:37,250 astronomical. And unless you don't, if you like marketing, like I like 319 00:19:37,250 --> 00:19:40,690 marketing. So for me, marketing in this way is fun for me. 320 00:19:41,030 --> 00:19:44,670 For a lot of people, it's not okay. And it's okay to be like, I 321 00:19:44,670 --> 00:19:48,310 don't like this. So I love that you mentioned the service side of it as 322 00:19:48,310 --> 00:19:52,110 well. But I can already hear the hesitancy from a lot of people listening 323 00:19:52,110 --> 00:19:55,950 where they're like, okay, I have an offer and now I have to 324 00:19:55,950 --> 00:19:59,550 create something entirely new to be able to sell 325 00:19:59,550 --> 00:20:03,390 something. And there's this objection 326 00:20:03,390 --> 00:20:06,990 that happens a lot, especially in online business space, this 327 00:20:06,990 --> 00:20:10,590 passive income idea that we've been fed, this passive 328 00:20:10,590 --> 00:20:14,350 income idea where we create it and then we relax on the beach and it 329 00:20:14,350 --> 00:20:18,070 just sells in our sleep, right? And when you talk about a service 330 00:20:18,390 --> 00:20:21,990 to me, when I hear that it requires active 331 00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:25,790 input from the person delivering the service, how 332 00:20:25,790 --> 00:20:29,630 do we overcome this objection or this thought of, you know, it 333 00:20:29,630 --> 00:20:33,350 sells in our sleep, we create it once and the people will come and buy 334 00:20:33,350 --> 00:20:37,080 it. I mean, does it sound familiar? Like that's exactly the dream about, 335 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,880 you know, writing a book or creative work or whatever is like, you make a 336 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,280 thing and people will come in the door. The fact is, passive 337 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,120 income doesn't exist. You know, I have 338 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:50,280 a friend who is, has a business that sells 339 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,080 relatively low priced courses and she 340 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,000 doesn't do what you do with social media, but she 341 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,410 posts on YouTube and she has a lot of backend 342 00:21:02,130 --> 00:21:05,090 automation. You know, she has, she uses ads 343 00:21:05,490 --> 00:21:09,250 significantly, she creates webinars, she has funnels, there's lots 344 00:21:09,250 --> 00:21:12,650 of tagging and things going back and forth, different sequences, all the different stuff. She 345 00:21:12,650 --> 00:21:15,490 loves it, it's a business she loves. And if you love doing that kind of 346 00:21:15,490 --> 00:21:19,250 stuff, fantastic, do it. I'm not trying to say there's anything better 347 00:21:19,250 --> 00:21:23,090 or worse about any of these ideas, but if 348 00:21:23,090 --> 00:21:26,850 you're somebody who is like, oh, I don't really like marketing. Then you do 349 00:21:26,850 --> 00:21:30,580 need to redesign your. Business model and your offer around something that 350 00:21:30,580 --> 00:21:33,500 you can price more, you know, higher. And I get a lot of people too 351 00:21:33,500 --> 00:21:36,020 who are like, oh, well, I have this idea for this course because I really 352 00:21:36,020 --> 00:21:39,420 just want to be hands off and not be doing stuff. And I'm like, okay, 353 00:21:40,460 --> 00:21:44,020 I hear you. And I have a feeling that's because. You'Re 354 00:21:44,020 --> 00:21:47,820 so over capacity right now. Like you're doing so much stuff 355 00:21:48,140 --> 00:21:51,860 to try to make your financial life work that it 356 00:21:51,860 --> 00:21:55,660 feels impossible to do some kind of service that's going to actually 357 00:21:55,740 --> 00:21:59,360 require time of you. It feels like it's too much. Right? 358 00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:03,000 I just can't. How could I possibly fit that in with all of this other 359 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,200 stuff? And the whole point is you need. To redesign from the 360 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,120 foundation, from the base. This is what I do in my coaching. Like this is 361 00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:12,880 we start with the business model, then we go to the offer, then we do 362 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,600 market research and refine the offer, then we do like an MVP pilot 363 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,280 thing. And at the end of this, after. We do sales, then 364 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,120 we do a. Marketing plan, you know, that's at the very end because 365 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,040 you have to have this structure that can potentially 366 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,160 deliver the kind of revenue you need in the amount of time you 367 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,880 have. First you have to have that. If you try to 368 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,280 like force it from the other direction, like you're talking about, they come in and 369 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,840 they're like, I have this thing, how do I sell it? Well, if you're going 370 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,120 to start with the thing, you're going to have to. Follow the rules of the 371 00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:48,800 thing, you know. So if you have a course that. Sells for $500 372 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,760 and you want it. To be this passive, quote unquote, passive thing, you better be 373 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,040 ready to have. A bunch of marketing channels that you're. Feeding 374 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,650 regularly, you know, using ads, spending a bunch of money on ads, 375 00:22:59,730 --> 00:23:03,570 creating funnels, using automations, getting real comfortable with the tech. If you do all 376 00:23:03,570 --> 00:23:06,770 that, it could work, you know, but, but 377 00:23:07,250 --> 00:23:10,930 that's what it requires. And so when I'm talking to people about 378 00:23:10,930 --> 00:23:14,210 working with me, that's what I lay out. I'm like, okay, these are your options. 379 00:23:14,450 --> 00:23:18,210 You can do what you want. But like, if you're trying to get out of 380 00:23:18,210 --> 00:23:22,010 the constant grind of marketing, you have to do marketing period, like 381 00:23:22,010 --> 00:23:24,650 to feed your business. But if you're trying to get out of this sort of 382 00:23:24,650 --> 00:23:28,450 like constant like content grind and whatever, this is 383 00:23:28,450 --> 00:23:31,610 what it looks like, you know, you have. To come up with a business model. 384 00:23:31,610 --> 00:23:35,450 And an offer that makes it possible to escape that grind. And 385 00:23:35,450 --> 00:23:39,250 so that, that mind that it's not even mindset but that that situation people are 386 00:23:39,250 --> 00:23:43,010 in where they're like, how? I don't. One to one, you know, or like, you 387 00:23:43,010 --> 00:23:46,850 know, service for, you know, it's. Just so, it's so demanding. It's 388 00:23:46,850 --> 00:23:50,210 so like, how do I possibly do that? It's like, well, because you wouldn't be 389 00:23:50,210 --> 00:23:53,690 doing all this other stuff, you know, stop doing that 390 00:23:53,970 --> 00:23:57,290 and put that energy into this. And it could feel actually kind of life giving 391 00:23:57,290 --> 00:24:00,610 and great, but you have to be able to 392 00:24:00,610 --> 00:24:04,450 imagine not doing all the other stuff. And everybody wants 393 00:24:04,450 --> 00:24:07,090 to come to and like do cohorts too, like out of the box. They're like, 394 00:24:07,250 --> 00:24:09,610 I have a sort of idea for Coaching. And what I want to do is 395 00:24:09,610 --> 00:24:12,770 it in groups and cohorts and classes. And they're thinking this is going to pay 396 00:24:12,770 --> 00:24:16,610 more money for less time. And so therefore I'll be able to 397 00:24:16,610 --> 00:24:19,650 handle the time issue again. Cool, great. 398 00:24:20,460 --> 00:24:24,100 But you need a large audience for. That and you need a lot of marketing 399 00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:27,900 energy behind that. So it really has to start with business model 400 00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:31,740 and it has to start with then the offer that fits in. That business model 401 00:24:32,220 --> 00:24:35,700 a hundred percent. And I still think to this day, even though I 402 00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:39,500 don't currently offer services done for you, services 403 00:24:39,980 --> 00:24:43,660 are still the most profitable way to have a business. Like, I think it's very 404 00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:46,620 challenging to just start off especially, 405 00:24:47,910 --> 00:24:51,630 you know, in the online business space with a course or a digital product of 406 00:24:51,630 --> 00:24:55,350 some of some sort. It's very challenging. I mean you evolved into this 407 00:24:55,350 --> 00:24:58,710 like you started there and it took 11 years. Yeah. 408 00:24:59,270 --> 00:25:02,590 And I went backwards and then went like, oh, I think I need one to 409 00:25:02,590 --> 00:25:06,110 one coaching. Which is, you know, like I figured it out, 410 00:25:06,110 --> 00:25:09,270 like everything went backwards. Right. And yeah, no, 411 00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:13,470 100% like exactly what you're saying. Like you don't necessarily have to stay 412 00:25:13,470 --> 00:25:17,170 there forever, but that's. If you're trying to 413 00:25:17,490 --> 00:25:21,090 innovate your way out of this crunch that you're in, you have to start. 414 00:25:21,250 --> 00:25:24,450 Well, you don't have to. You're likely to start there. And it could be one 415 00:25:24,450 --> 00:25:28,010 to one services. Services are, you know, done for you. Services are probably the 416 00:25:28,010 --> 00:25:31,810 easiest thing. Second would be one to one coaching. As long as you have a 417 00:25:31,810 --> 00:25:35,490 very clearly defined value proposition like you, what you do is very 418 00:25:35,490 --> 00:25:39,170 clear and the people you do it for are very clear. It's a little 419 00:25:39,170 --> 00:25:43,010 harder because it's people deciding on something like do they want to go 420 00:25:43,010 --> 00:25:46,370 down this road or not, but also the same thing where it's just you only 421 00:25:46,370 --> 00:25:49,450 need to get that. One person to say yes. You don't need to get hundreds 422 00:25:49,450 --> 00:25:53,210 of people to say yes. Yeah, I love this. And this, this 423 00:25:53,210 --> 00:25:56,970 kind of transitions us into the second part of this conversation beautifully, 424 00:25:57,130 --> 00:26:00,730 which is how do you sell this offer? And I love that you talk about 425 00:26:00,730 --> 00:26:04,290 relationships because that's why I love social media. For 426 00:26:04,290 --> 00:26:08,090 me, most of the time I spend on social media is actually relationship 427 00:26:08,090 --> 00:26:11,690 building. It's not content creation. I would much 428 00:26:11,690 --> 00:26:15,230 rather have a direct message conversation with through social 429 00:26:15,230 --> 00:26:18,910 media than create content. That's how I've been able to build my 430 00:26:18,910 --> 00:26:22,550 business. It's the, it's the hidden, I call it the dark social strategy. 431 00:26:22,950 --> 00:26:26,710 Right. So it's like everything that's behind the scenes behind the closed doors, 432 00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:29,750 so to speak, the private conversations that have built my business. 433 00:26:30,550 --> 00:26:34,350 Not necessarily what everyone else sees publicly. So I want to talk 434 00:26:34,350 --> 00:26:38,070 about this idea of relationship based marketing. How do you define it? Like, what is, 435 00:26:38,070 --> 00:26:41,770 what is the structure of this in your experience? First of all, 436 00:26:41,770 --> 00:26:45,450 credit where credit's due. I learned what, I've learned about this from Michelle 437 00:26:45,450 --> 00:26:49,090 Warner. Even the term relationship marketing comes from her. And so if 438 00:26:49,090 --> 00:26:52,650 anybody wants to go deep in this, she's the person to go 439 00:26:52,650 --> 00:26:56,330 to. But I have been paying attention to 440 00:26:56,330 --> 00:26:59,450 her and help and teaching this to my clients for a number of years. And 441 00:26:59,690 --> 00:27:03,490 essentially, as Michelle puts it, all marketing is on a spectrum between 442 00:27:03,490 --> 00:27:06,730 traffic and relationships. And the 443 00:27:06,730 --> 00:27:10,420 extreme end of relationship marketing is a one to one 444 00:27:10,420 --> 00:27:13,940 referral. It's somebody saying, you should work with this person, you know, and it comes 445 00:27:13,940 --> 00:27:17,700 out of the blue and it's the best. Right? Those are amazing, but 446 00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:21,260 they're not very controllable. You don't know when that's going to happen. 447 00:27:21,340 --> 00:27:24,860 And you know, it's sort of hard to build a business on that. On the 448 00:27:24,860 --> 00:27:28,620 other end of the extreme end of traffic marketing is like the three 449 00:27:28,620 --> 00:27:32,460 times a day Banana Republic emails you get, you know, where it's like, it doesn't, 450 00:27:32,540 --> 00:27:36,300 like, doesn't hurt you to get them. You're not offended by them, you sort 451 00:27:36,300 --> 00:27:39,960 of expect it. But also it's like, you know, I don't need those 452 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,760 things. I just like skim over them unless I need a new shirt. 453 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,800 And then I'm like, is there a sale? You know, that's kind of how it 454 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,120 functions, right? It's very, it's very transactional, right? Yeah. 455 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,920 So on, you know, looking at that spectrum, there's a, 456 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,520 there's every. And again, I'm, I'm basically quoting 457 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,280 Michelle here. Everything fits on that spectrum somewhere. And 458 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,640 so it's not that you have. To be all the way at one end of 459 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,990 it either. So the closer you get to that end, 460 00:28:08,470 --> 00:28:11,510 the deeper the connection you have with a person 461 00:28:12,150 --> 00:28:15,950 with the prospect at the outset, essentially, like when you 462 00:28:15,950 --> 00:28:19,670 first meet them. So, for example, this format of having a 463 00:28:19,670 --> 00:28:23,150 podcast with you, if people are listening to this and they're like, wow. 464 00:28:23,150 --> 00:28:26,350 Jessica, sounds super interesting. I definitely need to work on my business model and my 465 00:28:26,350 --> 00:28:30,110 offer. I want to change my foundations. I'm going to go 466 00:28:30,110 --> 00:28:32,190 call her, you know, I'm going to go to her site and get, you know, 467 00:28:32,190 --> 00:28:35,660 get on a call. This is a relationship marketing 468 00:28:35,740 --> 00:28:39,340 tactic because we're talking for however many minutes, you know, 469 00:28:39,340 --> 00:28:43,180 like pushing an hour probably at some point. And people can get a very 470 00:28:43,180 --> 00:28:46,740 deep. Sense of who I am and how. I think and, and my influences 471 00:28:46,740 --> 00:28:50,460 and all that other stuff. In that amount of time, I'm not talking to them 472 00:28:50,460 --> 00:28:54,300 directly, so it's not at the end of that spectrum. 473 00:28:54,780 --> 00:28:58,580 But you have invited me on your podcast, therefore there's a trust transfer 474 00:28:58,580 --> 00:29:02,000 between you and me where you say, jessica's great, you should listen to her, 475 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,600 you know, which you literally said at the beginning of the, of this thing. 476 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,760 And, and then your people are like, wow, you know, Andrea says I should. Listen 477 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,520 to Jessica, so therefore I'm going to listen. And then here they are listening and. 478 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,999 So they're learning who I am. Right. So that's somewhere towards 479 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,920 the relationship end of the spectrum. There are things like doing 480 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,600 talks and presentations live online. 481 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,500 You know, especially the more 482 00:29:27,220 --> 00:29:30,980 exclusive the invitation to speak, the more there's 483 00:29:30,980 --> 00:29:34,700 a trust transfer for the people in the room and the 484 00:29:34,700 --> 00:29:38,420 more open they're going to be to listening to you all the way through and 485 00:29:38,420 --> 00:29:42,140 hearing who you are. So if somebody says, hey, I have a mastermind group, 486 00:29:42,140 --> 00:29:45,540 would you come in and present on your. Whatever your idea is? 487 00:29:47,060 --> 00:29:50,660 That's an amazing opportunity to have those kinds of connections. 488 00:29:51,140 --> 00:29:54,980 So when we say relationship marketing, it. Doesn'T necessarily mean one to one networking, although 489 00:29:54,980 --> 00:29:58,600 that is certainly included. And a lot of the networking working you're doing is not 490 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,040 with the people who are going to be your clients, but the people who are 491 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,560 going to be your hosts. So it's reaching out to people, finding people who are 492 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,080 going to be the ideal collaborative partners. So when you came 493 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,880 to the autonomous creative conference and you spoke there, you know, that's 494 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,560 me introducing you to my. Audience, you introducing me to your audience. 495 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,280 And saying, like, look, these, these are. People worth listening to. 496 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,770 And that's the purpose of a conference like that. Beyond the actual 497 00:30:23,770 --> 00:30:27,530 content, the learning that people get out of it. It's that sense of like, look, 498 00:30:27,530 --> 00:30:31,370 we, we endorse this. You know, this is, you know, if you. 499 00:30:31,370 --> 00:30:35,050 Because there's so much garbage out there. Trying to find trusted voices 500 00:30:35,050 --> 00:30:38,810 is, is tricky. So if you find somebody you really trust and you like, 501 00:30:39,130 --> 00:30:42,410 you're going to look at who they point you to because you don't want to 502 00:30:42,410 --> 00:30:45,530 just go out. Like, it's scary to just go onto Instagram and like, click on 503 00:30:45,530 --> 00:30:49,170 influencers, you know, that's gonna get you in for some very dark places very 504 00:30:49,170 --> 00:30:52,860 quickly. Yeah, I don't, I don't necessarily recommend 505 00:30:52,860 --> 00:30:56,340 that, but I do love this idea of the 506 00:30:56,340 --> 00:31:00,100 trust transfer, specifically because it is a high 507 00:31:00,100 --> 00:31:03,140 level of trust to have someone in this space. 508 00:31:03,940 --> 00:31:07,700 Your example of this podcast is a great one. I get an email at least 509 00:31:07,700 --> 00:31:11,420 a day, someone asking to be on the podcast. And a lot of it 510 00:31:11,420 --> 00:31:15,260 is copy and paste random pitches from people who 511 00:31:15,260 --> 00:31:19,020 don't even know who I am or have listened to the show. And 512 00:31:19,020 --> 00:31:22,700 so it's an instant no for me. Right. But when you say, hey, can I 513 00:31:22,700 --> 00:31:25,620 be on the podcast? Like, absolutely. I can't believe I actually haven't talked to you 514 00:31:25,620 --> 00:31:29,420 yet on the podcast because I know you and there's inherent trust there. 515 00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:33,180 And now I can bring that to my community because that's really important to me 516 00:31:33,180 --> 00:31:36,780 as a creator of the podcast. So I love that you have brought that 517 00:31:36,780 --> 00:31:40,300 up. But for the people who are listening, who want to know how to start 518 00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:44,020 these relationships, what are some of the. The guidelines that you 519 00:31:44,020 --> 00:31:47,260 give your clients as they, you know, they have their offer create, 520 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,080 and they're starting to put out to the world. How do they find their people? 521 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,000 I mean, it absolutely depends on what the offer is. You know, I 522 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,520 have a client who creates custom pieces of 523 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,280 artwork that are lighted boxes. So it's like she creates artwork for 524 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,720 the face of it and then it's lit. And so she does this for commercial 525 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,480 spaces and also sort of for families for their, you 526 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,880 know, for the homes and stuff like that. So the people she's looking to connect 527 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,400 with are designers. You know, they're interior designers. They are 528 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,120 developers for buildings and things like that. 529 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,840 They're various kinds of professionals in the design world. So she 530 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,400 joined Women in design, whatever, and she goes to these different 531 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,080 things. She's, you know, has handouts and cards and stuff and 532 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,920 has coffee dates with people who are in that world and presents her work in 533 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,480 that kind of way that's kind of obvious, right? Like, it's, 534 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,200 that's just plain straight up networking. Another thing I've talked to her about. Though, 535 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,960 specifically is like, well, what if. You hosted an event where you have 536 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,680 your work up on the wall and then you're inviting these people to it? 537 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,480 So there's another way to like, create some excitement about what you're doing and. 538 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,880 Maybe you're collaborating with other people who. Do work 539 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,919 that's aimed at these kinds of designers who design big commercial spaces and things like 540 00:33:01,919 --> 00:33:05,240 that. It's somebody who does furniture and somebody who does whatever. And like, you're all 541 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,080 helping share those audiences. So then those other service providers 542 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,140 are your collaboration partners. I have another client who 543 00:33:13,140 --> 00:33:16,900 is a poetry coach. She's a poet and a Poetry coach. And so she, when 544 00:33:16,900 --> 00:33:20,540 she is looking for access, like she does book 545 00:33:20,540 --> 00:33:24,340 tour stuff and when she's going to poetry. Centers around the country to do readings. 546 00:33:24,340 --> 00:33:27,740 And things, she'll do sometimes a workshop. Cause her specialty is 547 00:33:27,980 --> 00:33:31,660 publishing, like how to create a publishable manuscript as a poet. 548 00:33:31,900 --> 00:33:35,100 And so she's working, she's looking for people who are like, in that 549 00:33:35,180 --> 00:33:38,630 MFA post MFA range, you know, who are 550 00:33:38,940 --> 00:33:42,780 very serious and experienced. Not people who are like, I think I want to write 551 00:33:42,780 --> 00:33:45,900 some poetry, but like people who are like in that other category. She can get 552 00:33:45,900 --> 00:33:49,740 those through that, those connections. Right. And so when she 553 00:33:49,740 --> 00:33:53,500 does a lecture or talk, when she does a workshop, she's then 554 00:33:53,660 --> 00:33:57,340 gathering people to do, to come to like, you know, she does low 555 00:33:57,340 --> 00:34:01,020 paid workshops on these topics. And that can then lead to poetry clients. 556 00:34:01,340 --> 00:34:04,950 So in both cases what they're doing is they're looking for, and I gave those 557 00:34:04,950 --> 00:34:08,550 examples because they're super different in terms of the way you think about it. 558 00:34:08,870 --> 00:34:12,710 But you're looking for other people who work with 559 00:34:13,030 --> 00:34:16,710 the same population that you work with, but they're doing it 560 00:34:16,710 --> 00:34:20,549 differently. They serve different needs. 561 00:34:20,870 --> 00:34:23,910 So a poetry center serves the needs of 562 00:34:24,630 --> 00:34:27,990 poets doing workshops to write poetry, which she's not doing, 563 00:34:28,710 --> 00:34:32,510 and bringing like poetry to an 564 00:34:32,510 --> 00:34:36,310 audience. Like people who are appreciation appreciators of poetry. She doesn't do 565 00:34:36,310 --> 00:34:39,470 that either. So they're aggregators of 566 00:34:39,870 --> 00:34:43,430 attention. Where she comes in is like, let's talk about publication. 567 00:34:43,430 --> 00:34:46,470 Let's talk about the thing that you don't learn in your MFA and how to 568 00:34:46,470 --> 00:34:49,150 actually put this together in something that you can put in front of an editor. 569 00:34:49,630 --> 00:34:53,350 That's a vast need for this audience. And she 570 00:34:53,350 --> 00:34:57,150 fits right in. And they're like, yes, please, let's have that. You know, I 571 00:34:57,150 --> 00:35:00,990 have another client who is a web designer and he specializes 572 00:35:00,990 --> 00:35:03,990 in churches and religiously aligned 573 00:35:04,070 --> 00:35:07,110 nonprofits in a certain kind of segment. Right. 574 00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:11,110 So he's looking for other service providers 575 00:35:11,350 --> 00:35:14,870 in that area. He's going to conferences for like pastors, 576 00:35:15,190 --> 00:35:17,670 he's doing, you know, other kinds of stuff where like those people are going to 577 00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:21,030 be together. So there's strategic thinking that goes into this 578 00:35:21,670 --> 00:35:25,350 and thinking like, who are the people who 579 00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:29,360 aggregate attention of your ideal clients 580 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,360 but are not competitive because you're not going to go in. I'm not going to 581 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,120 go into a space with another creative coach. And 582 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,040 we'll talk to people about our. Creative coach, you know, doing business coaching. For 583 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,760 creatives because it's dividing attention. Although I actually have talked about 584 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,240 doing that just for fun and talk about the, the distinction between our approaches. 585 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,480 But, you know, in general, you're not going to do that, right? You're not. It's 586 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,610 going to be a hard pitch, especially if you haven't met the person before they 587 00:35:54,610 --> 00:35:57,650 don't know you, and you're like, hey, can I come to your community? They're like, 588 00:35:57,650 --> 00:36:00,810 no, you're poaching people. But if I go to your community, 589 00:36:00,810 --> 00:36:04,530 Andrea, like, I do something you don't do, and you do something I 590 00:36:04,530 --> 00:36:08,170 don't do. And so there's a really great matchup there 591 00:36:08,650 --> 00:36:12,490 in terms of who we serve and how we 592 00:36:12,490 --> 00:36:16,330 serve them. So thinking about that, and then basically, 593 00:36:16,330 --> 00:36:20,050 people feel like they're, you know, it. Comes down to being a little bold. 594 00:36:20,050 --> 00:36:22,810 And, like, going out and meeting those people. And that's where 595 00:36:23,710 --> 00:36:27,510 the social media stuff comes in. And relationship building, especially 596 00:36:27,510 --> 00:36:30,830 the relationship building via social media, because you can be, you know, building 597 00:36:30,990 --> 00:36:34,630 connections with people based on your admiration for 598 00:36:34,630 --> 00:36:37,990 their work and, like, you know, how your interests over, you know, 599 00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:41,670 overlap. It's not going to happen by putting a heart on something or 600 00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:44,750 like, you know, a clap emoji. It's going to happen by 601 00:36:45,390 --> 00:36:49,070 thoughtfully writing people what you think about their 602 00:36:49,070 --> 00:36:52,390 work and, you know, how it's affected you and how you're using it with your 603 00:36:52,390 --> 00:36:55,250 clients and those kinds of things. You know, that's how you're going to make those 604 00:36:55,250 --> 00:36:58,250 connections. I love this so much. This is 605 00:36:59,130 --> 00:37:02,930 basically before anyone works with me, go work with Jessica first, then 606 00:37:02,930 --> 00:37:05,170 come to me, because this is the. Once you work with me, go work with 607 00:37:05,170 --> 00:37:08,570 Andrea. Well, this is it, right? This is the 608 00:37:08,570 --> 00:37:12,290 foundational concepts needed in order to build a 609 00:37:12,290 --> 00:37:16,010 sustainable business model. Not, you know, not the, the 610 00:37:16,170 --> 00:37:19,890 0.01% example that we're, you 611 00:37:19,890 --> 00:37:23,370 know, sometimes trying to aim for, but like the actual practical way 612 00:37:23,610 --> 00:37:27,430 to build a business that supports your life and supports your creative hob. Love this. 613 00:37:27,590 --> 00:37:31,310 One of the things that you mentioned, though, is that it kind of requires 614 00:37:31,310 --> 00:37:34,990 you to be bold to put yourself out there. And I am 615 00:37:34,990 --> 00:37:38,710 an introvert. It's part of the reason why I like social media 616 00:37:38,710 --> 00:37:41,670 and why I work at home alone, by myself, 617 00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:45,830 besides talking occasionally to people on the podcast, 618 00:37:45,990 --> 00:37:49,510 because I am a very shy person, especially in person 619 00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:53,190 scenarios, I can fake it for a while, 620 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,960 but only for a short while. And so what do you. What do you experience 621 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,800 or what do you recommend to your clients who are on the 622 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,520 shire or introverted side of things? You mean all of them? Okay, 623 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,320 good. I'm not alone. I just, I get like, Honestly, Jessica, I 624 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,840 start sweating so bad that when I go to conferences, I 625 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,360 intentionally schedule my day so that I can take a shower halfway through the day 626 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,720 because I, like, I get so nervous that it's. 627 00:38:20,030 --> 00:38:23,870 It's not great, it's not cute at all. So. Yeah, help. Yeah. 628 00:38:24,190 --> 00:38:27,790 Well, I mean, honestly, I feel like for the vast majority of people who are 629 00:38:27,790 --> 00:38:31,630 listening, I'm sure their businesses are online. The other people they're 630 00:38:31,630 --> 00:38:34,830 talking to, their businesses are also online. The idea that you're going to meet these 631 00:38:34,830 --> 00:38:38,590 people in person anytime soon is very. It's a 632 00:38:38,590 --> 00:38:42,350 very slim chance. Right. So the idea of having to, like, face people 633 00:38:42,430 --> 00:38:46,270 in person and do a live thing. Yes. If there is an 634 00:38:46,270 --> 00:38:49,930 opportunity like any. You'Re open to it in your town. To go 635 00:38:49,930 --> 00:38:53,730 to, well, targeted networking events that, you know, 636 00:38:53,730 --> 00:38:57,370 are your target audience. You know, gin yourself up and go 637 00:38:57,370 --> 00:39:00,490 like, you should go. But a lot of this stuff happens 638 00:39:00,490 --> 00:39:04,090 asynchronously, you know, and it, and it is really 639 00:39:04,090 --> 00:39:07,850 like the first steps. And, and I'm 640 00:39:07,850 --> 00:39:11,170 gonna point to Michelle again, you know, because she has this whole thing of thank 641 00:39:11,170 --> 00:39:14,930 you notes, you know, writing people thank you notes and. Just do it 642 00:39:14,930 --> 00:39:17,290 all the time. Right. People think you notice all the time. But make sure that 643 00:39:17,290 --> 00:39:20,290 they have content to them that they're not just like, hey, I needed to hear 644 00:39:20,290 --> 00:39:23,630 that today. What did you need to hear? What did you do with it? How 645 00:39:23,630 --> 00:39:27,110 did it affect you? What are you doing? You know, how is it moving forward 646 00:39:27,110 --> 00:39:30,070 in your life? Those kinds of things. If you, if you're willing to put a 647 00:39:30,070 --> 00:39:33,910 little effort into that, people will notice. If you've ever gotten a note 648 00:39:33,910 --> 00:39:37,750 like that, you remember it, you know, like, I know people who 649 00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:41,750 have thoughtfully responded to stuff through email, 650 00:39:42,150 --> 00:39:45,950 you know, on social media, they've said, wow, this really was so 651 00:39:45,950 --> 00:39:49,650 great. And I did this and I learned that. And, you know, I may not 652 00:39:49,650 --> 00:39:53,490 work with them in the future, but I certainly have. I'm very well disposed 653 00:39:53,490 --> 00:39:56,650 toward them. You know, I will answer them. And so 654 00:39:57,210 --> 00:40:01,010 thinking about it in terms of everything that you're, like when you're connecting 655 00:40:01,010 --> 00:40:04,810 with an ideal collaboration person, the whole 656 00:40:04,810 --> 00:40:08,490 point is it's ideal both ways. You will help them and they will help 657 00:40:08,490 --> 00:40:11,690 you. And so if you need to make a list of all the ways that 658 00:40:11,770 --> 00:40:15,250 you will help them and help their. Audience and don't tell them all these. Ways, 659 00:40:15,250 --> 00:40:18,730 but just know it, you know, like, don't just go like, and I. Could do 660 00:40:18,730 --> 00:40:22,390 this for you and this. And this and this. That's a overwhelming. But like, if 661 00:40:22,390 --> 00:40:25,270 you can see how what you do 662 00:40:25,910 --> 00:40:29,310 helps Their audience that's. Going to give you the 663 00:40:29,310 --> 00:40:32,390 confidence to. Reach out to them or give you. More of the confidence you need 664 00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:36,030 to. Reach out to them. Yeah. I don't claim this is 665 00:40:36,030 --> 00:40:39,430 easy. It's hard, you know, but what you're going for is 666 00:40:39,670 --> 00:40:43,350 friends. You know, you're going for people who you're going to have long term 667 00:40:43,350 --> 00:40:47,160 relationships with, who you're going to, you know, once you sort of build this up 668 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,880 and they can introduce you to other. People who you should know. And you know, 669 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,720 having these kinds of. I think even for introverts, I mean. Everybody wants friends, right? 670 00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:58,320 Everybody wants to have a sense that they belong somewhere, that there's like a network. 671 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,080 A lot of people who come to me feeling very, very alone, 672 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,160 you know, like, this is a very lonely thing to do sometimes. And they don't 673 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,480 know. They don't have anybody to talk to and they don't know who to ask. 674 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,160 If you go into this thinking, like. I need to make some biz besties. Like, 675 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,910 I need to make some friends who I can talk to about this. That's all 676 00:41:16,910 --> 00:41:20,710 I want right now. You will still get good results from. That eventually 677 00:41:20,710 --> 00:41:24,390 in terms of your business. You know, if you are 678 00:41:24,390 --> 00:41:27,950 thinking like this person, their approach just like 679 00:41:27,950 --> 00:41:31,750 works for me. Like, I love how they talk. I want, 680 00:41:31,750 --> 00:41:34,550 I want to be friends with that person. Like, think about it that way and 681 00:41:34,550 --> 00:41:38,110 maybe that helps. Yeah. Oh, this is so 682 00:41:38,110 --> 00:41:41,860 beautiful. I do think there is something about thinking about 683 00:41:41,860 --> 00:41:45,660 it as an actual relationship versus transactional 684 00:41:45,820 --> 00:41:49,540 that can be very empowering when you're going into these conversations. Because if 685 00:41:49,540 --> 00:41:52,700 you go into it thinking, you know, 686 00:41:53,100 --> 00:41:56,820 what can they give me, you know, what can I get out of it? It 687 00:41:56,820 --> 00:42:00,460 makes it very challenging to even start the conversation versus what you 688 00:42:00,460 --> 00:42:04,220 said, which is, I know the ways I can support this person, but I 689 00:42:04,220 --> 00:42:08,050 think first and foremost it's like, okay, we're human, so like, let's just 690 00:42:08,050 --> 00:42:11,570 act like a human. This is why I will, every. 691 00:42:11,570 --> 00:42:15,170 Anytime I do this, I always say I'm going to be 692 00:42:15,170 --> 00:42:18,770 live in person at these events. But if you hug me and I'm 693 00:42:18,770 --> 00:42:22,290 sweaty, I will kindly ask you not to point it out. Because I know, 694 00:42:22,530 --> 00:42:26,130 I know, okay? And that's my human 695 00:42:26,130 --> 00:42:29,490 moment. And now we can move past it. And I think that that's. There's just 696 00:42:29,490 --> 00:42:32,850 something there too, to just being a human being, 697 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,720 which I love. But I'll also say this too, in my personal experience 698 00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:41,400 is why I also like social media. Because it's a signal 699 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,160 that I'm available for this type of relationship. 700 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,400 And I find it challenging to do that outside of the 701 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,120 predefined spaces. And that's why I like social media, that's why I like 702 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,760 conferences and events. Because it's, it. My brain just 703 00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,500 goes, aha, this is what we're here for. And I made my friends 704 00:43:00,500 --> 00:43:04,220 the same way. Y', all, like, every single one of my friends, they claimed me. 705 00:43:04,220 --> 00:43:07,700 I was just there in the space that we just, you know, I just showed 706 00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:09,900 up to book club and they were like, you are friend now. And I'm like, 707 00:43:09,900 --> 00:43:13,060 okay, yes, this is what I came here for. And so if you're shy like 708 00:43:13,060 --> 00:43:16,740 me and you have the same thing, sometimes just showing up in this 709 00:43:16,740 --> 00:43:20,180 space is a really good first step. And a, And a friendly 710 00:43:20,180 --> 00:43:21,940 extrovert may just claim you. 711 00:43:23,620 --> 00:43:27,460 Yes. And being willing to be claimed, you know, like when somebody says something to 712 00:43:27,460 --> 00:43:31,130 you, you don't just go, oh yeah, you know, like actually answer and 713 00:43:31,370 --> 00:43:35,210 engage in this conversation. You don't necessarily have to be the one to 714 00:43:35,210 --> 00:43:38,970 initiate it. But yeah, I mean, again, it's not, 715 00:43:38,970 --> 00:43:42,490 it's not easy, but it's a totally different kind of hard from 716 00:43:43,130 --> 00:43:46,810 trying to show up on Instagram five days a week, 717 00:43:47,050 --> 00:43:50,890 you know, or figure out something to say to all of the 718 00:43:51,690 --> 00:43:55,450 random people who follow you. You don't really know. Like you're trying to present something 719 00:43:55,450 --> 00:43:59,290 for everybody all at the same time. You know, it's 720 00:43:59,290 --> 00:44:03,070 all, it feels like. It'S all visible all the time. You know, we get 721 00:44:03,070 --> 00:44:05,790 all kinds of stories in our head about all of that stuff and it's just 722 00:44:05,790 --> 00:44:08,870 a lot of work. Right? It's just like so much time. 723 00:44:09,350 --> 00:44:12,630 So once you get going with this, then you have 724 00:44:12,630 --> 00:44:16,350 relationships and they can snowball to a certain extent. You 725 00:44:16,350 --> 00:44:19,990 know, you can meet other people through them and so on. So that's fantastic. 726 00:44:20,390 --> 00:44:24,070 But it's never not work, you know, it's. It is something. And 727 00:44:24,070 --> 00:44:27,890 knowing that when I say be friends with people, like, sure, you can make your 728 00:44:27,890 --> 00:44:31,570 like actual best friend this way for sure. But that's not really the 729 00:44:31,570 --> 00:44:34,330 goal you're going for. You're going for people who you're going to be able to 730 00:44:34,330 --> 00:44:37,930 share various parts of your business journey with, 731 00:44:38,810 --> 00:44:42,490 maybe have. Questions for them, get their advice, maybe. You know, like 732 00:44:42,730 --> 00:44:46,330 somebody I've met a couple years ago who we now meet 733 00:44:46,330 --> 00:44:50,170 every two weeks for like a two person mastermind, you know, like, 734 00:44:50,650 --> 00:44:52,930 that was pretty random. She reached out to me to see whether I wanted to 735 00:44:52,930 --> 00:44:56,720 host her in my community and I said, sure, it's a good match. And 736 00:44:56,720 --> 00:45:00,280 now we do this, you know, and she's great, but it's still within that container 737 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,120 of business related stuff. We were, you know, we meet during business 738 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,160 hours, we talk about our, what's going on in our businesses. 739 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,440 So it also doesn't have to be like all consuming, you know, because people can 740 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,640 be like, oh, I have enough friends. Ah, who says that? I don't know. But 741 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,200 anyway, you know, you know, I feel socially 742 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,880 like tapped out. Does not have to be that. That's not what we're talking about. 743 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,560 It really is about finding common interests and having people to talk to about very 744 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,400 specific kinds of things. And again, like, choose your 745 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,040 work. What kind of work are you into? You know, just, you're gonna have to 746 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,840 do something. So what do you want it to look like? Yeah, I love that. 747 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:40,440 Okay, last question is one of my nosier ones, but I'm 748 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,720 curious, what's your favorite type of relationship 749 00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:47,560 marketing? I, 750 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,560 I love doing this. I love doing podcast interviews. 751 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:55,050 It's such an opportunity to, you know, go deep with somebody 752 00:45:55,050 --> 00:45:58,450 who is there to be interested. So that's awesome. You know, 753 00:46:00,050 --> 00:46:03,650 and I also really like, I actually 754 00:46:03,650 --> 00:46:07,010 like speaking in person. I don't do it very often, 755 00:46:08,130 --> 00:46:11,730 but I'm not an extrovert, but I'm an ambivert. And so I enjoy 756 00:46:11,730 --> 00:46:15,330 being like I. And I'm also a bit of a ham. So I like being 757 00:46:15,330 --> 00:46:18,770 up on stage and like getting people to laugh and you know, doing that kind 758 00:46:18,770 --> 00:46:22,510 of stuff. I am not a professional speaker in the sense of 759 00:46:22,510 --> 00:46:25,630 like going or, you know, trying to set all that stuff up. I've actually not 760 00:46:25,630 --> 00:46:27,830 been doing very much in the last few years, but I do enjoy it. It's 761 00:46:27,830 --> 00:46:30,990 really fun. And then, then people have this opportunity to come and talk to you 762 00:46:30,990 --> 00:46:34,310 afterwards and they've had this cool experience of you and, 763 00:46:34,630 --> 00:46:38,350 you know, have questions and stuff. So that's kind of fun too. Oh, I 764 00:46:38,350 --> 00:46:40,990 love that. Okay, good to know. Good to know. So for the people who are 765 00:46:40,990 --> 00:46:44,350 listening, who are like, I need more desk in my life, you have a monthly 766 00:46:44,350 --> 00:46:47,710 free coaching call that you do. Can you tell us about that and any, anything 767 00:46:47,710 --> 00:46:51,280 else that the people need to hear that you're working on? Sure, yeah. 768 00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:55,880 So, yes, I host a monthly call. Called Simplify to 769 00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,520 Amplify Roundtable, AKA Star. Which 770 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,360 is just an open coaching call where I can answer questions about 771 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,480 things like business models and offers and how do I do this and where am 772 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,480 I going to find these mythical people who will pay me money and so, you 773 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,480 know, all that kind of stuff and you can find 774 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,160 that@jessicaable.com Starr S T A R 775 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,970 and that's just, you know, it's just a, like you can pre submit a question. 776 00:47:20,530 --> 00:47:24,050 I usually get through a good chunk of them. If you're there live, 777 00:47:24,210 --> 00:47:27,490 I invite you, if you want to, to speak to me live 778 00:47:28,130 --> 00:47:30,970 when I'm answering the question. So that's really fun. The other thing is I'm working 779 00:47:30,970 --> 00:47:34,210 on, I've actually, I've done this but I haven't quite recorded it and set everything 780 00:47:34,210 --> 00:47:37,570 up. But I hope by the time this. Goes live I will have this available 781 00:47:37,970 --> 00:47:41,690 which is a training on using your capacity as 782 00:47:41,690 --> 00:47:45,320 we talked about before, to align your 783 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,560 pricing and your and your offer and like what that means about 784 00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:53,000 what kind of offer you're going to design. How do you think that through? 785 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,360 Like literally talking about the math I was talking about. I will show that. 786 00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,400 And so that's something I hope to. Have recorded and ready and it will. Be 787 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,160 at the top of my homepage. If it is there by when 788 00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,960 we. Go live then fantastic. If not, it'll be there soon. Awesome. 789 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,290 Yes. Well you can check those links out in the show notes onlinedrea.com 790 00:48:11,470 --> 00:48:15,180 3 Jessica, thanks again for 791 00:48:15,180 --> 00:48:18,500 being on the show. This is great. Such a pleasure. Thank you for having me. 792 00:48:18,740 --> 00:48:22,060 And thank you, dear listener, for tuning in to another episode of the Mindful Marketing 793 00:48:22,060 --> 00:48:25,860 Podcast. If you liked this episode, come on into the Mindful 794 00:48:25,860 --> 00:48:29,540 Marketing Lab. We have conversations like these and more all of the 795 00:48:29,540 --> 00:48:33,220 time. Plus you get unlimited strategy in the lab. It's one of the biggest 796 00:48:33,220 --> 00:48:36,820 perks of being in the membership. It's not just a collection of courses. 797 00:48:36,820 --> 00:48:40,470 I don't let you just sit there and watch things and never implement them. I 798 00:48:40,470 --> 00:48:43,550 am your kind and loving cheerleader. I will give you the big push that you 799 00:48:43,550 --> 00:48:47,150 need and tell you not to do things that you don't need to do in 800 00:48:47,150 --> 00:48:50,990 your marketing. So come on in next week I have another episode for 801 00:48:50,990 --> 00:48:53,670 you. Stay tuned for that. In the meantime, make sure you give us a five 802 00:48:53,670 --> 00:48:57,390 star rating on Apple Podcasts and Spotify help support the show. I'll see 803 00:48:57,390 --> 00:48:58,950 you next Tuesday. Bye for now.